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What is this article about? "Intrinsic redshift" implies (to me) a redshift associated with a particular object, as opposed to mechanisms that apply to all sources in the neighborhood. In that sense, the gravitational redshift is intrinsic, tired light is not, and scattering may or may not be, depending on the location of the scattering medium. The alleged synonyms each have their own problems. I don't understand Reboul's table at all. In short, I am deeply unhappy with the content of the article, and question whether it should exist at all. -- Art Carlson 11:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
PS I just read an article commenting on Wolf redshift, and I agree with Art that "intrinsic" is a misnomer, just as for tired light. IMO it would make more sense to call it "List of redshift mechanisms", as appendix to the article "Redshift". Harald88 15:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Redshift term | Examples papers using term | |
in title | in abstract | |
Intrinsic redshift | Show (5) | Show (48) |
Non-cosmological redshift | Show (7) | Show (16) |
Non-velocity redshifts or Non-Doppler Redshift |
Show (7) Show (4) |
Show (7) Show (12) |
Anomalous Redshift or Discordant redshifts |
Show (24) Show (25) |
Show (58) Show (52) |
Original request | Your comment
This article has to go. Claiming that it is based on an obscure clearinghouse paper published in the 1980s doesn't cut it as a rationale for including the article. The article is Original Research and a POV-fork and will go. Please see the AfD page. Thanks, -- ScienceApologist 15:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't have time for prolonged bickering about this topic. There is research published in professional astronomical journals that discusses the topic of intrinsic redshifts. Ian has linked to those articles. That alone is enough to justify the existence of this article. As for the writing of the article - that is something that can progress. I don't think it is unfair to make sure that the article states that the hypothesis of intrinsic redshifts is a speculative, minority view. However, there is a use in having this article as a reference to what an "intrinsic redshift" might be.
One of the difficulties is that there are a lot of different controversial redshift mechanisms and some of them may be "intrinsic" and some of them are not. For clarity it should be understood that the Hubble relation defines the cosmological redshift. Expansion of the universe is the accepted mechanism for cosmological redshift. Tired light mechanisms provide another attempt to explain cosmological redshift.
Intrinsic redshift specifically refers to variations in the observed redshift of individual objects (galaxies, quasars ... ) that vary from object to object such that two objects at the same distance might have vastly different redshifts. Note that "intrinsic redshifts" - if real - may be superposed upon the cosmological redshift. So properly speaking, anything that attempts to explain all of the observed redshift as cosmological (expansion, tired light) belongs in the main "Redshift" article - or an article titled "cosmological redshift". Any redshift mechanisms that are superposed upon the cosmological redshift defined by the Hubble relation would properly belong in the "intrinsic redshift" article.
I see no reason to provide any edits to the article until this issue of its existence is resolved. -- DavidRussell 18:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The article would be good if it were completed by a comparison of the proposed redshift mechanisms; the author should indicate, for each proposal, by yes or no (table ?), which of the following conditions for a Doppler-like effec tby a light-matter interaction, are fulfilled:
-1 Space coherence to avoid a blurring of the images
-2 An incident wave must be transformed into a single emerging wave to avoid a blurring of the spectra; if the infinitesimal process is a scattering, the incident and scattered waves must interfere into a single wave having the same linewidth.
-3 The relative frequency shift must be, at least approximately, constant. The lack of constance of the observed relative frequency shifts is usually considered as due to a variation of the fine structure constant.
-4 Is it a pure consequence of well known physics, in particular spectroscopy and thermodynamics ?
-5 Is the effect non-Doppler ? The theory must fail if it is applied to a continuous wave, therefore it must contain a parameter measuring the time-incoherence of the light.
JMO 07:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC) Jacques Moret-Bailly
Joshua, I do not accept your withdrawal of the Article for Deletion under those terms. As Art Carson and Harald88 first commented in Talk (see their comments above), "there is a problem with definitions". I AGREED with them both, and as a result of our discussion, made some changes. You've steam-rollered over those discussions, and ignored everybody.
The article was clearly far broader than just "intrinsic redshift", as indicated by the definition, existing comments, and note of suggested article title change.
Where's the information on "Non-cosmological redshifts", or "Plasma redshift", or "Neutrino redshift", or that such theories often result in redshift with distorted spectra, or a timeline of alternative theories? -- Iantresman 17:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Ian, let me add, that Joshua's re-write is not an article about intrinsic redshifts - its about Halton Arp. I could very easily write a NPOV article on intrinsic redshifts, but I don't have the time right now. A true article about intrinsic redshifts should include examples from the published research that have led to the intrinsic redshift hypothesis. Those are points that could be added to this article, but I suspect that any attempt to do that would be met with resistance. -- DavidRussell 19:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you should give other people time to work on improving the article. You nominated it for deletion within 24 hours. That sets a very bad tone and undermines your credibility as a fair minded contributor. There is justification for including an intrinsic redshifts article on Wikipedia. As I emphasized in my original comments, it is important to make sure that the article emphasizes the intrinsic redshift hypothesis has very little support in the astronomical community -but with that said the reasons for proposing intrinsic redshifts should be given fair treatment. -- DavidRussell 19:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Joshua, since your User page is currently protected [3], I'm posting this warning template here. I consider your edits, without discussion, to be vandalism. Please stop removing content from Wikipedia; it is considered vandalism. If you want to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.. |
1. A scientist can't "accept" concensus for he/she is part of the contributors to an eventual concensus. Only a layman or stranger to the field can "accept" concensus of such experts. Thus that is nonsense, as if scienctists are part of some kind of fanatic sect.
2. I wonder who determined such a claimed concensus, and how. If it can't be supported by something good, it's just POV pushing. Harald88 20:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
I'm quite content for there to be an article on "Intrinsic redshift", but that still leaves room for another article. This is not a re-interpretation of redshift. It does not deny the existing information on the redshift article. I envisage it covering:
The vast majority of this information is not included anywhere in Wikipedia.
The problem with this is that a person who holds a non-neutral view on the topic can write a proper NPOV article on the topic. While I strongly support the interpretation that there are intrinsic redshifts (and have published research supporting that interpretation) I am quite capable of writing an article that is very neutral on this topic - an article that states the reasons some researchers support an intrinsic redshift interpretation, but acknowledges that it is a view that is not accepted by the astronomical community.
It is you that consistently fails to maintain a NPOV by your relentless deletions and actions such as nominating this article for deletion within 24 hours of its writing. Frankly, I was going to create an Intrinsic Redshift article for Wikipedia in a few months when I have more time in my schedule. Ian beat me to it. Now you may not agree with Ian's writing, but the topic itself is perfectly valid for Wikipedia. Your knee-jerk request to delete the entire article and subsequent complete re-write demonstrates a lack of patience with and fairness to this process. -- DavidRussell 05:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Iantresman 21:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
If the article is going to be done right, I'm going to have to add a lot of material to it, break it into sections and such. I'm not going to put in all that time if it is just going to be wholesale deleted as seems to be the track record of events on the controversial cosmology topics. As I've already stated twice, I don't have a lot of time at the moment to do that. Perhaps this weekend I'll find a little time to provide an example section of what I would do with this article. But it is going to take several months before I'd be able to really devote the time needed to do it right. -- DavidRussell 20:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Since "Intrinsic redshift" is not the same as "Redshift theories (alternative)", how about David Russell edits the "Intrinsic redshift" article (this one), to see whether it does contain sufficient information to warrant its own page? I think we might be surprised. -- Iantresman 15:19, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I've provided a brief introduction to the topic of intrinsic redshifts. When I find some time I will try to write several additional sections. I think there should be the following additional sections:
1. Observations - with discussion both for and against the intrinsic redshift interpretation by referring to examples such as NGC 7603, NEQ3, NGC 4319, and perhaps a few others.
2. The intrinsic redshift model of Arp - a brief description of his ejection scenario.
3. Possible intrinsic redshift mechanisms.
4. Evidence for intrinsic redshifts in galaxies.
Each of these sections should be as brief as possible so as not to give undue weight to the topic, but complete enough that the reader can get a handle on the basics of the topic.
-- DavidRussell 21:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I added a criticism section and cleaned up the article a bit to conform more with Wikipedia standards. Hope I didn't offend anyone. -- ScienceApologist 04:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I've never really bothered to reflect upon whether or not I am a member of the scientific community. Heck even if I am, people such as myself that publish work supporting alternative ideas such as Arp are labeled "fringe" anyway. So it is really not a major concern of mine. Depending upon which section of the Wiki article on scientific community you read I am and am not a member of the community. According to the first part I am - I write and publish papers in research journals and communicate with other researchers regularly - including a number of very well known "mainstream" researchers. However, according to the second part that refers to employment and education (presumably Phd in astrophysics) I would not be. Personally, I don't care one way or another what people want to say about my background. If someone wishes to criticize that rather than what I have published or written, then that person is committing an ad-hominem attack.
In order to keep the comments organized I'm adding some comments in respect to Joshua's criticism section here:
There are a few parts of your “criticism” section that need to be fixed. In the first sentence, it is really not appropriate to say that the nature of quasars “were” a source of controversy because that implies that there was a point in the past when a significant number of astronomers took Arp’s hypothesis seriously. The literature does not support that possibility. It would be more appropriate to say something like this:
“Arp’s hypothesis that quasars are local and contain large intrinsic redshifts has never gained support from the vast majority of astronomers in the research community.” Secondly, the claim that the discovery of host galaxies invalidates Arp’s hypothesis is false. Arp hypothesizes in his model that the ejected quasars evolve into normal galaxies and has since the early 1970’s. If the quasars evolve into galaxies, then the “hosts” are in fact expected in his hypothesis. This is frequent claim made by those that don’t understand what Arp’s hypothesis actually is.
Third, Arp has never claimed that there are two classes of quasars. In the 1970’s other researchers proposed that. Jaakkola published a paper in 1975 (Ap&SS 37,301) noting that the quasars involved in the local quasars hypothesis seemed to be flat spectrum compact radio sources while the quasars not apparently associated with local galaxies were primarily steep spectrum extended radio sources. This is much the same as trying to take galaxies and break them down into different types and then hypothesize that one type of galaxy forms one way and another type of galaxy forms a different way.
Your last few sentences are editorializing. There are enough variations in quasar characteristics that multiple classes are warranted. So it is not clear that a single model will explain all quasar behavior. It might, but it might not. The question in relation to Arp’s hypothesis is whether or not there is a common characteristic among quasars that Arp specifically has claimed are associated with specific local galaxies, not exhibited by those that apparently are not associated with local galaxies. Arp pointed out from the beginning that it only takes one established case to demonstrate that the intrinsic redshift phenomenon is real.
I’m going to make several changes that are consistent with the comments above.
And you obviously don't have much familiarity with the basics of Arp's model. He argues that the entire galaxy (QSO and host) possess the same intrinsic redshift. And he argues that intrinsic redshifts exist in galaxies too (therefore galaxies can have large deviations from the Hubble relation) - not just quasars. So yes, if he is right, these "host" galaxies are much smaller than thought in the standard view that places them at their Hubble distances.
And none of that has anything to do with my understanding of theoretical quasar models. One theory doesn't disprove another theory - observations do that. One of the greatest failings of many that attack the Big Bang is a failure to understand what observations would actually be capable of disproving the theory. Unfortunately, those that dispute alternative theories such as Arp's often suffer from the same lack of familiarity. You have this notion that the existence of host galaxies contradicts Arp's model and that is incorrect. "Host" galaxies are expected in his model. The quickest way to absolutely prove Arp wrong is to study the M-82 quasars for proper motions. That obviously will take a large amount of time, but if there are no proper motions then Arp must be wrong. -- DavidRussell 20:39, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm aware of the unified models of quasars - but I am also aware that there are enough observational characteristics (spectroscopic, radio loud/quiet ...)of quasars that vary from object to object that it is worth looking at whether or not the objects Arp proposes are ejected by local galaxies differ in some way from those that do not appear to be ejected (such as the Jaakkola paper I mentioned before). -- DavidRussell 23:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
However, Arp has proposed that the quasars he has hypothesized are ejected from AGN will evolve into normal galaxies over time. So the discovery of host galaxies around QSO's does not necessarily rule out his empirical model.
Arp ... has argued that only a single well established instance of a galaxy or quasar with an intrinsic redshift is needed to confirm that intrinsic redshifts are a real phenomenon.
How much proper motion should they have Joshua? What is the parent galaxy? How far is the parent galaxy? What is the line of sight for the ejection? What is the range of expected proper motions that could be expected from the QSO's at the distance of the parent galaxies assuming a reasonable ejection velocity? I'll have to look into this more ... my focus has been intrinsic redshifts in galaxies the last few years. And I don't have unlimited time for discussing this on Wikipedia or any other internet discussion forum. The fact remains, the M-82 QSO's provide the best opportunity to test for proper motions in QSO's in a specific case in which a specific parent galaxy has been proposed. In the meantime I'll take another look at the paper you've linked to - I looked at it when it first came out, but that was ~2 years ago. -- DavidRussell 00:11, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
BTW Joshua, you might want to carefully look at the paper you linked to. It does not test for quasar proper motions. It assumes quasars have zero proper motion and uses them as a reference to test for proper motions of stars. -- DavidRussell 00:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
This is fair warning to those who would oppose ScienceApologist. He considers himself to be the final authority on everything pertaining to cosmology.
This is how he believes:
Interesting, but not surprising, quantized redshift is not covered in this intrinsic redshift entry. But that is how Joushua operates - he removes key evidence, then argues about irrelevant details.
a google search shows quantized redshift refuted 242 quantized redshift confirmed 15,000
Tommy Mandel 02:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Witness his removal of my references from the page which I would call an act of vandalism.
M.B. Bell1 and D. McDiarmid1.(2005) Six Peaks Visible in the Redshift Distribution of 46,400 SDSS Quasars Agree with the Preferred Redshifts Predicted by the Decreasing Intrinsic Redshift Model
M.B. Bell (2006) Evidence that Quasars and Related Active Galaxies are Good Radio Standard Candles and that they are Likely to be a Lot Closer than their Redshifts Imply. http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0602242
Tifft W.G.. (2003) 1Redshift periodicities, The Galaxy-Quasar Connection. Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 285, Number 2, 2003, pp. 429-449(21)
Cocke W.J.1; Devito C.L.2; Pitucco A.3 Statistical Analysis of the Occurrence of Periodicities in Galaxy Redshift Data. Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 244, Numbers 1-2, 1996, pp. 143-157(15)
Oldershaw, Robert L. (1995) New Light on Redshift Periodicities; Quantization in the Properties of Quasars and Planets. APEIRON Vol. 2, Nr. 2, Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_redshift"
Tommy Mandel 04:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. - Splash talk 01:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've added two related redshift topics to the See also section, to help readers navigate between them. Checking the Wiki topics on tired light, redshift quantization and intrinsic redshifts shows that they all concern interpretations of redshift -- Iantresman 09:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Image:Seeing-red.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
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|
What is this article about? "Intrinsic redshift" implies (to me) a redshift associated with a particular object, as opposed to mechanisms that apply to all sources in the neighborhood. In that sense, the gravitational redshift is intrinsic, tired light is not, and scattering may or may not be, depending on the location of the scattering medium. The alleged synonyms each have their own problems. I don't understand Reboul's table at all. In short, I am deeply unhappy with the content of the article, and question whether it should exist at all. -- Art Carlson 11:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
PS I just read an article commenting on Wolf redshift, and I agree with Art that "intrinsic" is a misnomer, just as for tired light. IMO it would make more sense to call it "List of redshift mechanisms", as appendix to the article "Redshift". Harald88 15:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Redshift term | Examples papers using term | |
in title | in abstract | |
Intrinsic redshift | Show (5) | Show (48) |
Non-cosmological redshift | Show (7) | Show (16) |
Non-velocity redshifts or Non-Doppler Redshift |
Show (7) Show (4) |
Show (7) Show (12) |
Anomalous Redshift or Discordant redshifts |
Show (24) Show (25) |
Show (58) Show (52) |
Original request | Your comment
This article has to go. Claiming that it is based on an obscure clearinghouse paper published in the 1980s doesn't cut it as a rationale for including the article. The article is Original Research and a POV-fork and will go. Please see the AfD page. Thanks, -- ScienceApologist 15:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't have time for prolonged bickering about this topic. There is research published in professional astronomical journals that discusses the topic of intrinsic redshifts. Ian has linked to those articles. That alone is enough to justify the existence of this article. As for the writing of the article - that is something that can progress. I don't think it is unfair to make sure that the article states that the hypothesis of intrinsic redshifts is a speculative, minority view. However, there is a use in having this article as a reference to what an "intrinsic redshift" might be.
One of the difficulties is that there are a lot of different controversial redshift mechanisms and some of them may be "intrinsic" and some of them are not. For clarity it should be understood that the Hubble relation defines the cosmological redshift. Expansion of the universe is the accepted mechanism for cosmological redshift. Tired light mechanisms provide another attempt to explain cosmological redshift.
Intrinsic redshift specifically refers to variations in the observed redshift of individual objects (galaxies, quasars ... ) that vary from object to object such that two objects at the same distance might have vastly different redshifts. Note that "intrinsic redshifts" - if real - may be superposed upon the cosmological redshift. So properly speaking, anything that attempts to explain all of the observed redshift as cosmological (expansion, tired light) belongs in the main "Redshift" article - or an article titled "cosmological redshift". Any redshift mechanisms that are superposed upon the cosmological redshift defined by the Hubble relation would properly belong in the "intrinsic redshift" article.
I see no reason to provide any edits to the article until this issue of its existence is resolved. -- DavidRussell 18:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The article would be good if it were completed by a comparison of the proposed redshift mechanisms; the author should indicate, for each proposal, by yes or no (table ?), which of the following conditions for a Doppler-like effec tby a light-matter interaction, are fulfilled:
-1 Space coherence to avoid a blurring of the images
-2 An incident wave must be transformed into a single emerging wave to avoid a blurring of the spectra; if the infinitesimal process is a scattering, the incident and scattered waves must interfere into a single wave having the same linewidth.
-3 The relative frequency shift must be, at least approximately, constant. The lack of constance of the observed relative frequency shifts is usually considered as due to a variation of the fine structure constant.
-4 Is it a pure consequence of well known physics, in particular spectroscopy and thermodynamics ?
-5 Is the effect non-Doppler ? The theory must fail if it is applied to a continuous wave, therefore it must contain a parameter measuring the time-incoherence of the light.
JMO 07:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC) Jacques Moret-Bailly
Joshua, I do not accept your withdrawal of the Article for Deletion under those terms. As Art Carson and Harald88 first commented in Talk (see their comments above), "there is a problem with definitions". I AGREED with them both, and as a result of our discussion, made some changes. You've steam-rollered over those discussions, and ignored everybody.
The article was clearly far broader than just "intrinsic redshift", as indicated by the definition, existing comments, and note of suggested article title change.
Where's the information on "Non-cosmological redshifts", or "Plasma redshift", or "Neutrino redshift", or that such theories often result in redshift with distorted spectra, or a timeline of alternative theories? -- Iantresman 17:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Ian, let me add, that Joshua's re-write is not an article about intrinsic redshifts - its about Halton Arp. I could very easily write a NPOV article on intrinsic redshifts, but I don't have the time right now. A true article about intrinsic redshifts should include examples from the published research that have led to the intrinsic redshift hypothesis. Those are points that could be added to this article, but I suspect that any attempt to do that would be met with resistance. -- DavidRussell 19:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you should give other people time to work on improving the article. You nominated it for deletion within 24 hours. That sets a very bad tone and undermines your credibility as a fair minded contributor. There is justification for including an intrinsic redshifts article on Wikipedia. As I emphasized in my original comments, it is important to make sure that the article emphasizes the intrinsic redshift hypothesis has very little support in the astronomical community -but with that said the reasons for proposing intrinsic redshifts should be given fair treatment. -- DavidRussell 19:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Joshua, since your User page is currently protected [3], I'm posting this warning template here. I consider your edits, without discussion, to be vandalism. Please stop removing content from Wikipedia; it is considered vandalism. If you want to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.. |
1. A scientist can't "accept" concensus for he/she is part of the contributors to an eventual concensus. Only a layman or stranger to the field can "accept" concensus of such experts. Thus that is nonsense, as if scienctists are part of some kind of fanatic sect.
2. I wonder who determined such a claimed concensus, and how. If it can't be supported by something good, it's just POV pushing. Harald88 20:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
I'm quite content for there to be an article on "Intrinsic redshift", but that still leaves room for another article. This is not a re-interpretation of redshift. It does not deny the existing information on the redshift article. I envisage it covering:
The vast majority of this information is not included anywhere in Wikipedia.
The problem with this is that a person who holds a non-neutral view on the topic can write a proper NPOV article on the topic. While I strongly support the interpretation that there are intrinsic redshifts (and have published research supporting that interpretation) I am quite capable of writing an article that is very neutral on this topic - an article that states the reasons some researchers support an intrinsic redshift interpretation, but acknowledges that it is a view that is not accepted by the astronomical community.
It is you that consistently fails to maintain a NPOV by your relentless deletions and actions such as nominating this article for deletion within 24 hours of its writing. Frankly, I was going to create an Intrinsic Redshift article for Wikipedia in a few months when I have more time in my schedule. Ian beat me to it. Now you may not agree with Ian's writing, but the topic itself is perfectly valid for Wikipedia. Your knee-jerk request to delete the entire article and subsequent complete re-write demonstrates a lack of patience with and fairness to this process. -- DavidRussell 05:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Iantresman 21:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
If the article is going to be done right, I'm going to have to add a lot of material to it, break it into sections and such. I'm not going to put in all that time if it is just going to be wholesale deleted as seems to be the track record of events on the controversial cosmology topics. As I've already stated twice, I don't have a lot of time at the moment to do that. Perhaps this weekend I'll find a little time to provide an example section of what I would do with this article. But it is going to take several months before I'd be able to really devote the time needed to do it right. -- DavidRussell 20:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Since "Intrinsic redshift" is not the same as "Redshift theories (alternative)", how about David Russell edits the "Intrinsic redshift" article (this one), to see whether it does contain sufficient information to warrant its own page? I think we might be surprised. -- Iantresman 15:19, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I've provided a brief introduction to the topic of intrinsic redshifts. When I find some time I will try to write several additional sections. I think there should be the following additional sections:
1. Observations - with discussion both for and against the intrinsic redshift interpretation by referring to examples such as NGC 7603, NEQ3, NGC 4319, and perhaps a few others.
2. The intrinsic redshift model of Arp - a brief description of his ejection scenario.
3. Possible intrinsic redshift mechanisms.
4. Evidence for intrinsic redshifts in galaxies.
Each of these sections should be as brief as possible so as not to give undue weight to the topic, but complete enough that the reader can get a handle on the basics of the topic.
-- DavidRussell 21:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I added a criticism section and cleaned up the article a bit to conform more with Wikipedia standards. Hope I didn't offend anyone. -- ScienceApologist 04:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I've never really bothered to reflect upon whether or not I am a member of the scientific community. Heck even if I am, people such as myself that publish work supporting alternative ideas such as Arp are labeled "fringe" anyway. So it is really not a major concern of mine. Depending upon which section of the Wiki article on scientific community you read I am and am not a member of the community. According to the first part I am - I write and publish papers in research journals and communicate with other researchers regularly - including a number of very well known "mainstream" researchers. However, according to the second part that refers to employment and education (presumably Phd in astrophysics) I would not be. Personally, I don't care one way or another what people want to say about my background. If someone wishes to criticize that rather than what I have published or written, then that person is committing an ad-hominem attack.
In order to keep the comments organized I'm adding some comments in respect to Joshua's criticism section here:
There are a few parts of your “criticism” section that need to be fixed. In the first sentence, it is really not appropriate to say that the nature of quasars “were” a source of controversy because that implies that there was a point in the past when a significant number of astronomers took Arp’s hypothesis seriously. The literature does not support that possibility. It would be more appropriate to say something like this:
“Arp’s hypothesis that quasars are local and contain large intrinsic redshifts has never gained support from the vast majority of astronomers in the research community.” Secondly, the claim that the discovery of host galaxies invalidates Arp’s hypothesis is false. Arp hypothesizes in his model that the ejected quasars evolve into normal galaxies and has since the early 1970’s. If the quasars evolve into galaxies, then the “hosts” are in fact expected in his hypothesis. This is frequent claim made by those that don’t understand what Arp’s hypothesis actually is.
Third, Arp has never claimed that there are two classes of quasars. In the 1970’s other researchers proposed that. Jaakkola published a paper in 1975 (Ap&SS 37,301) noting that the quasars involved in the local quasars hypothesis seemed to be flat spectrum compact radio sources while the quasars not apparently associated with local galaxies were primarily steep spectrum extended radio sources. This is much the same as trying to take galaxies and break them down into different types and then hypothesize that one type of galaxy forms one way and another type of galaxy forms a different way.
Your last few sentences are editorializing. There are enough variations in quasar characteristics that multiple classes are warranted. So it is not clear that a single model will explain all quasar behavior. It might, but it might not. The question in relation to Arp’s hypothesis is whether or not there is a common characteristic among quasars that Arp specifically has claimed are associated with specific local galaxies, not exhibited by those that apparently are not associated with local galaxies. Arp pointed out from the beginning that it only takes one established case to demonstrate that the intrinsic redshift phenomenon is real.
I’m going to make several changes that are consistent with the comments above.
And you obviously don't have much familiarity with the basics of Arp's model. He argues that the entire galaxy (QSO and host) possess the same intrinsic redshift. And he argues that intrinsic redshifts exist in galaxies too (therefore galaxies can have large deviations from the Hubble relation) - not just quasars. So yes, if he is right, these "host" galaxies are much smaller than thought in the standard view that places them at their Hubble distances.
And none of that has anything to do with my understanding of theoretical quasar models. One theory doesn't disprove another theory - observations do that. One of the greatest failings of many that attack the Big Bang is a failure to understand what observations would actually be capable of disproving the theory. Unfortunately, those that dispute alternative theories such as Arp's often suffer from the same lack of familiarity. You have this notion that the existence of host galaxies contradicts Arp's model and that is incorrect. "Host" galaxies are expected in his model. The quickest way to absolutely prove Arp wrong is to study the M-82 quasars for proper motions. That obviously will take a large amount of time, but if there are no proper motions then Arp must be wrong. -- DavidRussell 20:39, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm aware of the unified models of quasars - but I am also aware that there are enough observational characteristics (spectroscopic, radio loud/quiet ...)of quasars that vary from object to object that it is worth looking at whether or not the objects Arp proposes are ejected by local galaxies differ in some way from those that do not appear to be ejected (such as the Jaakkola paper I mentioned before). -- DavidRussell 23:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
However, Arp has proposed that the quasars he has hypothesized are ejected from AGN will evolve into normal galaxies over time. So the discovery of host galaxies around QSO's does not necessarily rule out his empirical model.
Arp ... has argued that only a single well established instance of a galaxy or quasar with an intrinsic redshift is needed to confirm that intrinsic redshifts are a real phenomenon.
How much proper motion should they have Joshua? What is the parent galaxy? How far is the parent galaxy? What is the line of sight for the ejection? What is the range of expected proper motions that could be expected from the QSO's at the distance of the parent galaxies assuming a reasonable ejection velocity? I'll have to look into this more ... my focus has been intrinsic redshifts in galaxies the last few years. And I don't have unlimited time for discussing this on Wikipedia or any other internet discussion forum. The fact remains, the M-82 QSO's provide the best opportunity to test for proper motions in QSO's in a specific case in which a specific parent galaxy has been proposed. In the meantime I'll take another look at the paper you've linked to - I looked at it when it first came out, but that was ~2 years ago. -- DavidRussell 00:11, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
BTW Joshua, you might want to carefully look at the paper you linked to. It does not test for quasar proper motions. It assumes quasars have zero proper motion and uses them as a reference to test for proper motions of stars. -- DavidRussell 00:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
This is fair warning to those who would oppose ScienceApologist. He considers himself to be the final authority on everything pertaining to cosmology.
This is how he believes:
Interesting, but not surprising, quantized redshift is not covered in this intrinsic redshift entry. But that is how Joushua operates - he removes key evidence, then argues about irrelevant details.
a google search shows quantized redshift refuted 242 quantized redshift confirmed 15,000
Tommy Mandel 02:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Witness his removal of my references from the page which I would call an act of vandalism.
M.B. Bell1 and D. McDiarmid1.(2005) Six Peaks Visible in the Redshift Distribution of 46,400 SDSS Quasars Agree with the Preferred Redshifts Predicted by the Decreasing Intrinsic Redshift Model
M.B. Bell (2006) Evidence that Quasars and Related Active Galaxies are Good Radio Standard Candles and that they are Likely to be a Lot Closer than their Redshifts Imply. http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0602242
Tifft W.G.. (2003) 1Redshift periodicities, The Galaxy-Quasar Connection. Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 285, Number 2, 2003, pp. 429-449(21)
Cocke W.J.1; Devito C.L.2; Pitucco A.3 Statistical Analysis of the Occurrence of Periodicities in Galaxy Redshift Data. Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 244, Numbers 1-2, 1996, pp. 143-157(15)
Oldershaw, Robert L. (1995) New Light on Redshift Periodicities; Quantization in the Properties of Quasars and Planets. APEIRON Vol. 2, Nr. 2, Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_redshift"
Tommy Mandel 04:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. - Splash talk 01:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've added two related redshift topics to the See also section, to help readers navigate between them. Checking the Wiki topics on tired light, redshift quantization and intrinsic redshifts shows that they all concern interpretations of redshift -- Iantresman 09:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)