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Intersex article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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On 19 February 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Intersex to Intersex people. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
The result of the move request was: no consensus, thus not moved. – filelakeshoe ( t / c) 🐱 12:15, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
– I was surprised to find that
Intersex was the article about humans, and it seems a very easy issue to fix. Moving here provides easy opportunity for avoiding parenthetical disambiguation with a less surprising title (
WP:PLA). I note that
Intersex already begins with Intersex people are individuals…
, so it is likely to be the most natural way to title the article about humans. —
HTGS (
talk) 00:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisted.
P.I. Ellsworth ,
ed.
put'er there 00:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Intersex people, and not intersex as a condition. (See also: List of intersex people, Intersex people in history, Intersex people and religion, etc.) In fact, the wording we use—intersex, and not intersexual, intersexuality or intersexism—means that in most (not all) usage around people, we are using the word as an adjective. Further, this article already emphasizes the social aspects more than the biological, which is why I didn’t propose Intersex in humans to try to make this a sub-set / secondary topic to the biology article.
Renaming in this way will break a great many links that formerly went here. Please see Cleaning up after a change in topic structure. It is a job, but not a terribly complicated one, to shift link targets. I personally will do that work myself if necessary.
Having recently read the Wiki article Intersex, I elected to edit the phrase "sex assignment" as an individual's sex is not assigned to them, i.e. no-one gives it to me, but is a product of fertilisation. The use of the term "assignment" is false and misleading as an individual cannot reject or chose an alternative sex at the point of birth. Note: I am not talking about sex reassignment surgery later in life.
The edit, which simply said that a child's sex at birth usually aligned with their anatomical sex and phenotype, i.e. if it has a penis it is male and if it has a vagina it is female, has been reverted on a couple of occasions. One by an individual stating "Misunderstanding of text" and the other as "something non-understandable".
While not having experience of intersex, or association with an individual who may suffer from malformed genitalia, the fact is that an individual's sex in the normal and natural development of the fetus is not "assigned" but a product of fertilisation. Something which has been known for eons. Would be interested in knowing what the wider Wiki community thinks about removing the phrase "sex assignment" for something that is factually correct. 86.189.234.69 ( talk) 16:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
I made small edits to correct grammar (added the missing word "book"), correct style (made unified footnotes) and ambiguities (mentioned in the table, in a form of footnote, that the LOCAH is debated by Leonard Sax, as has been explained in detail in that section). It should not modify the meaning, but should add clarity and simplicity of understanding. Please review. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Intersex&diff=1182732065&oldid=1182609954 -- Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 01:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
"A study published by Leonard Sax reports that this figure includes conditions such as late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia and XXY/Klinefelter syndrome which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex"
Clinicians generally do not use the term 'intersex', they use DSD. With that in mind, the focus on what "clinicians recognise as intersex" does not make sense.
Why does this article push the views of Sax so hard? 31.94.34.221 ( talk) 21:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Since when was PCOS considered an "intersex condition"???? The vast majority of those with PCOS do not consider themself intersex, and not even Anne Fausto-Sterling claimed that it is.
Furthermore, there are no sources that back up the "PCOS is an intersex condition" claim 2d32d23ff322 ( talk) 01:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In Judaism, the Talmud discusses many categories of intersex people in Jewish law, with emphasis on the androgynous, who exhibit both male and female external sexual organs, and the tumtum, who exhibit neither. The other categories that the Talmud mentions are the aylonit, who are assigned female at birth but later reveal male characteristics, and the saris, who are assigned male at birth but later reveal female characteristics. These categories are furthermore classified by hamah, natural causes, or adam, human intervention.
<ref>Dzmura, Noach. Balancing on the Mechitza: Transgender in Jewish Community. North Atlantic Books, 2010./ref> Karirig ( talk) 17:28, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Intersex article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
On 19 February 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Intersex to Intersex people. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
The result of the move request was: no consensus, thus not moved. – filelakeshoe ( t / c) 🐱 12:15, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
– I was surprised to find that
Intersex was the article about humans, and it seems a very easy issue to fix. Moving here provides easy opportunity for avoiding parenthetical disambiguation with a less surprising title (
WP:PLA). I note that
Intersex already begins with Intersex people are individuals…
, so it is likely to be the most natural way to title the article about humans. —
HTGS (
talk) 00:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisted.
P.I. Ellsworth ,
ed.
put'er there 00:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Intersex people, and not intersex as a condition. (See also: List of intersex people, Intersex people in history, Intersex people and religion, etc.) In fact, the wording we use—intersex, and not intersexual, intersexuality or intersexism—means that in most (not all) usage around people, we are using the word as an adjective. Further, this article already emphasizes the social aspects more than the biological, which is why I didn’t propose Intersex in humans to try to make this a sub-set / secondary topic to the biology article.
Renaming in this way will break a great many links that formerly went here. Please see Cleaning up after a change in topic structure. It is a job, but not a terribly complicated one, to shift link targets. I personally will do that work myself if necessary.
Having recently read the Wiki article Intersex, I elected to edit the phrase "sex assignment" as an individual's sex is not assigned to them, i.e. no-one gives it to me, but is a product of fertilisation. The use of the term "assignment" is false and misleading as an individual cannot reject or chose an alternative sex at the point of birth. Note: I am not talking about sex reassignment surgery later in life.
The edit, which simply said that a child's sex at birth usually aligned with their anatomical sex and phenotype, i.e. if it has a penis it is male and if it has a vagina it is female, has been reverted on a couple of occasions. One by an individual stating "Misunderstanding of text" and the other as "something non-understandable".
While not having experience of intersex, or association with an individual who may suffer from malformed genitalia, the fact is that an individual's sex in the normal and natural development of the fetus is not "assigned" but a product of fertilisation. Something which has been known for eons. Would be interested in knowing what the wider Wiki community thinks about removing the phrase "sex assignment" for something that is factually correct. 86.189.234.69 ( talk) 16:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
I made small edits to correct grammar (added the missing word "book"), correct style (made unified footnotes) and ambiguities (mentioned in the table, in a form of footnote, that the LOCAH is debated by Leonard Sax, as has been explained in detail in that section). It should not modify the meaning, but should add clarity and simplicity of understanding. Please review. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Intersex&diff=1182732065&oldid=1182609954 -- Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 01:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
"A study published by Leonard Sax reports that this figure includes conditions such as late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia and XXY/Klinefelter syndrome which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex"
Clinicians generally do not use the term 'intersex', they use DSD. With that in mind, the focus on what "clinicians recognise as intersex" does not make sense.
Why does this article push the views of Sax so hard? 31.94.34.221 ( talk) 21:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Since when was PCOS considered an "intersex condition"???? The vast majority of those with PCOS do not consider themself intersex, and not even Anne Fausto-Sterling claimed that it is.
Furthermore, there are no sources that back up the "PCOS is an intersex condition" claim 2d32d23ff322 ( talk) 01:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In Judaism, the Talmud discusses many categories of intersex people in Jewish law, with emphasis on the androgynous, who exhibit both male and female external sexual organs, and the tumtum, who exhibit neither. The other categories that the Talmud mentions are the aylonit, who are assigned female at birth but later reveal male characteristics, and the saris, who are assigned male at birth but later reveal female characteristics. These categories are furthermore classified by hamah, natural causes, or adam, human intervention.
<ref>Dzmura, Noach. Balancing on the Mechitza: Transgender in Jewish Community. North Atlantic Books, 2010./ref> Karirig ( talk) 17:28, 25 April 2024 (UTC)