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It seems to me that the article specifically chronicles only the Indian side of things and significantly neglects the Pakistani side. It appears lopsided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.73.14.62 ( talk) 22:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I've edited some of the text in the Main Battle section, first para. It stated that the IAF Vampire was outdated and the PAF F-86's were more modern, so the latter bested the former. While India obtained the Vampires earlier in 1949, whereas the PAF obtained the F-86's in 1955, both aircraft are of the same era, and both were obsolete by Western standards by the end of the '50s. I will not add references here-this can be verified by the main Wikipedia articles on the Vampire and the F-86. There was, however, a major performance difference, as the F-86 had a higher top speed, ceiling, and acknowledged better performance than the Vampire. The Mystere was developed in the '50s so it's more modern. In fact, it was used by the French upto the '80s. This I've put into the article. Also made some grammatical/typo corrections Philcal213 ( talk) 11:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC) it seems more as if it is anti india article, and i dont know how it came on wikipedia. dragonphoenix ( talk) 14:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
I have updated the assessment of this article from Stub to Start as there is too much content now for it just to be a stub. I have attempted to fix some of the problems that I found with this article, but I have no knowledge of the subject at all. I can only help with copy editing. As such it requires a few experts to bring this article up to a B class standard. I believe that the following improvements could be made:
Just a few ideas. Hope this helps. Once these have been done, you might consider re-assessment. This can be done by adding the article to the list at WP:MHA. If you would like more detailed comments, please consider adding the article for peer review. This can be done by adding it to the list at WP:MHPR. — AustralianRupert ( talk) 08:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the following text from the article as it is just a list of quotes, which is not encyclopedic. Also, they were just taken from the PAF website, hence I don't believe that they can be considered exactly neutral. Nevertheless, I am placing them here on the talk page for safekeeping and debate.
The source of the quotes could be used, if they were to be added into the article in an encyclopedic manner, say for instance in an analysis section, however, just having a list of quotes is not good practice. This isn't meant to be an advertisement. Also, having them in the article as they currently stand creates neutrality issues. It would be better to actually locate the original sources, rather than just quoting the PAF website, as even if it is true (I am making no judgements as I am completely neutral on this issue) it just looks like a non independent source. — AustralianRupert ( talk) 01:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite the Indians claiming superiority over Pakistani Airforce in Aerial Warfare, Independent sources however present a different potrait. Some of the overviews by Western Defence analysts and Defence Issues are given as under.
“By all accounts the courage displayed by the Pakistan Air Force pilots is reminiscent of the bravery of the few young and dedicated pilots who saved this country from Nazi invaders in the critical Battle of Britain during the last war.” (Patrick Seale, The Observer, London, September 12, 1965.) verification needed * http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/ “Pakistan’s air force gained a remarkable victory over India in this brief 22 day war exploiting its opponents weaknesses in exemplary style – Deeply shaken by reverse, India began an extensive modernisation and training program, meanwhile covering its defeat with effective propaganda smoke screen.” (Encyclopaedia of Aircraft printed in several countries by Orbis Publications – Volume 5) verification needed* http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/
“Pakistan claims to have destroyed something like 1/3rd the Indian Air Force, and foreign observers, who are in a position to know say that Pakistani pilots have claimed even higher kills than this; but the Pakistani Air Force are being scrupulously honest in evaluating these claims. They are crediting Pakistan Air Force only those killings that can be checked from other sources.” (Roy Meloni, American Broadcasting Corporation, September 15, 1965.) verification needed* http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/
“India’s barbarity is mounting in fury as the Indian army and Air Force, severely mauled, are showing signs of demoralisation. The huge losses suffered by the Indian Armed Forces during the last 12 days of fighting could not be kept from the Indian public and in retaliation, the Indian armed forces are indulging in the most barbaric methods.”
“The Chief of Indian Air Force could no longer ensure the safety of Indian air space. A well known Indian journalist, Mr Frank Moraes, in a talk from All-india radio, also admitted that IAF had suffered severe losses and it was no use hiding the fact and India should be prepared for more losses.“ (Indonesian Herald, September 11, 1965.) verification needed http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/
“For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel. (USA – Aviation Week & Space Technology – December 1968 issue.) verification needed http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/
“India is claiming all-out victory. I have not been able to find any trace of it. All I can see are troops, tanks and other war material rolling in a steady towards the front … These muslims of Pakistan are natural fighters and they ask for no quarter and they give none. In any war, such as the one going on between India and Pakistan right now, the propoganda claims on either side are likely to be startling. But if I have to take bet today, my money would be on the Pakistan side.“ (Roy Maloni- American Broadcasting Corporation) verification needed
"Indian pilots are inferior to Pakistan’s pilots and Indian officers’ leadership has been generally deplorable. India is being soundly beaten by a nation which is outnumbered by a four and a half to one in population and three to one three to one in size of armed forces.” (Sunday Times, London, September 19, 1965.) verification needed http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/ 00:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
```this is the most pathetic piece of nonsense i have ever seen, india has never lost a battle against pakistan, i have a feeling that all india pakistan articles have a heavy pakistan influence, and have nothing but biased INformation``` dragonphoenix ( talk) 15:08, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Two sources are presented here, one is an article published in the Flight International magazine, written by the British author John Fricker, the other is a book authored by Pradeep P. Barua. URLs are provided. Whether claims in the Flight International article are true or not, surely the info merits inclusion because of the prestigious source.
Reference: John Fricker, "Pakistan's Air Power", Flight International magazine, published 1969 (page 89), can be viewed at flightglobal.com archives (URL: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%200111.html?search=Pakistan%20Mirage%205), Retrieved: 21 September 2009
John Fricker, "Pakistan's Air Power", Flight International magazine, published 1969 (page 90), can be viewed at flightglobal.com archives (URL: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%200112.html), Retrieved: 21 September 2009
The State at War in South Asia, by Pradeep P. Barua, pages 193-194 (can be viewed at URL: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FIIQhuAOGaIC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=Dassault+Mirage+1971+war&source=bl&ots=-0DHCO00yR&sig=U7ZTAI86rgnWH1Lr3GpoeBYh3kM&hl=en&ei=4ZWlSsGSONCOjAfJhaHcAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=Dassault%20Mirage%201971%20war&f=false)
-- Hj108 ( talk) 20:41, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
M.A.R 1993 ( talk) 15:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC) However it is very difficult to judge the true victorious air force in the air war of 1965. Many facts have been remain unknown. However, if we look at the losses incurred on aircrafts and bases, it is vividly verified that the PAF have an upper hand over IAF. PAF lost hardly a squadron of its fighting force whereas IAF lost 75-110 aircrafts. PAF destroyed 38 aircrafts in air-to-air combats and IAF almost 10. PAF continously crater Pathankot, Halwara, Adampur and Jamnagar and most of the time these air bases were almost inoperable, and IAF had to flow sorties from farther airbases like Agra. On the other hand PAF bases were not battered profusely. Isn't this prove the fact that PAF gained wartime air dominance over Indo-Pakistani skies? Air war has been described on all PAF websites and Battle for Pakistan by John Fricker is the most authentic book regarding air war of 1965. So, be fair and result of Air war must be edited because beliveing in one's victory doesn't make your armed forces fragile. As when there is a war one has to win and one has to lose. Am I right?
I am feeling glad as you at least accepted a PYRRHIC PAF victory at least. M.A.R 1993 ( talk) 16:28, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Both of these objectives were complete failure and not achieved.
All of these objectives were achieved. So in deciding victory it does not matter who took more losses until they achieved their aims. -- UplinkAnsh ( talk) 07:26, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
the article has been edited several times by vandals and i'm guessing by biased trolls who favor the Pakistani side here and somehow apparently it's become the war of "1969" according the template on the very top left of the page, the result before stated the PAF achieved tactical air superiority (which they didn't) and it was there victory admins please act put the page on semi protection...........-- Honorprevails123 ( talk) 04:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
IT says only 2 planes shot by Alam, so changed accordingly-- Ðℬig XЯaɣ 08:25, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
With Recent Edits , there has been multiple attempts to include claims about MM ALAM in the article and removing any content that disputes it. and thereby completely ignoring various facts related to the incident. do have alook http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Chapter5.html and it seems the artivcle now needs immediate cleaning after the recent edits. -- Ðℬig XЯaɣ 21:39, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I think this page should be moved to Indo-Pakistani Air War of 1965 and the current one should be redirected to that. For example see: Indo-Pakistani Naval War of 1971 and all other Indo-Pakistani war articles' name format. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 08:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Done
WP:Silent consensus &
WP:Bold. --
lTopGunl (
talk)
23:50, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Saw a content removal [2] by User TopGun. also the edit summary by the same user shows the attitude of the editor. googling is not your responsibility agreed but then the content removal is also not your responsibility. If you cant or dont want to look for truth and citations, then its better to leave it for others too look for. Thats why the citation needed tags are for. -- Ðℬig XЯaɣ 18:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
[3] Is hardly written in a neutral manner. Darkness Shines ( talk) 15:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
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I'm removing the maintenance tags as I don't see any bias in the article or see the article written as a person essay. warrior4321 ✆ talk ✉ mail 17:38, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
A bunch of POV pushers and likely socks are making this article even more messed up than it already is. Full protection may be imminent. In the meantime, editors of good faith need to sort this stuff out. This edit, for instance, is pretty idiotic since there is no Coggins citation anywhere. The same applies to the Van Creveld-sourced claim in the lead: there is no entry for Van Cleveld in a Works Cited list. Besides, the main text is written in just godawful English and needs a copy edit, as well as some structure. It contains random sentences like this one, "On 4 September, an F-86 Sabre was lost. The PAF claimed the cause to be friendly ground fire[21] while the IAF claimed to have shot it down", sourced to some wholly unreliable warloving hobbyist's website. I don't see how Bharat Rakshak can be called a reliable source in this context (see this edit--but that editor has already been blocked as a Nangparbat sock--yawn). There are problems all over the place. Fix them please. Drmies ( talk) 17:05, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
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High level of bias from both sides, hence I would like the admin to enforce a ban on editing. Hamza 33 99 ( talk) 23:26, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
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Hullo,
I have some data on IAF's activity or lack of it vs PAF in East Pakistan. It differs slightly from the existing text and needs to be reworded and integrated with the text that appears in this article:
Of the 460 aircraft that the IAF had in total, approximately 270 combat-worthy IAF aircraft were on the western front against about 170 PAF combat aircraft. Another author indicates that the IAF had a large deployment of squadrons on the eastern front, leaving it with only around 290 aircraft in the west, against his researched Pakistani aircraft strength of 203.
Aggressive but ill-directed IAF Canberra and Hunter strikes on the night of 6 September and in the early hours of 7 September against PAF airfields in Chittagong, Kurmitola and Jessore drew a strong response from 14 Squadron PAF against Kalaikunda, Central Air Command’s pivotal base in Bengal. Sadly, IAF had such poor intelligence about the location of the only Sabre squadron in East Pakistan that it attacked every base there except Tejgaon, the air base outside Dacca, where 14 Squadron PAF had a detachment of 12 F-86 Sabre Jets. With zero air defence and aircraft parked in the open at Air Force Station Kalaikunda, IAF lost eight aircraft (four Canberras plus four Vampires) to two Sabre strikes on 7 September. However, PAF’s 14 Squadron was bested in an epic aerial battle over Kalaikunda the same morning as a young ace with 14 Squadron of the IAF, Flt Lt A Cooke, flying a Hunter, shot down two Sabres. Mohan, Jagan; Chopra.
"The India–Pakistan Air War of 1965, n. 10, p. 178". Journal of Defence Studies, New Delhi. {{
cite journal}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |subscription=
(
help)
I note that F/L Cooke's wingman is not named. He was Fg Offr Subodh Chandra Mamgain 6760 GD(P), who was awarded a VrC.
[1] Comments welcome. I'll wait till May 10...That OK?
--
Moitraanak (
talk)
19:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Anaguaydf: with this you are doing same mistake as USaamo by assuming that source exists on the article about Pakistan having edge over India in the air war but there is no reliable source which can confirm so. We cannot rely on a supposed Guardian report from 1965 because it is not WP:HISTRS. Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 06:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
The claims and admissions by the two sides in the conflict are terribly frustrating," which means basically that he couldn't figure out who is lying and who is telling the truth. Most of the authors labelled as "neutral claims" on the page are also hardly neutral. They are American writers trying to write about American equipment, prone to taking Pakistani claims at face value or at least tending to remain credulous in their own interest.
It appears that 1965 war was not rationally analyzed in Pakistan at all. In this regard the Pakistani military decision-makers were swept away in the emotional stream of their own propaganda!.(Agha Humayun Amin) [3]
Since the war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation as a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and used Ayub as a role model and continued to fight unwarranted wars--the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999.(Nur Khan) [4]
References
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References
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Well I'm not surprised as to what you said and even if a couple of them have missing titles, most of them have their source available. And even if just one of it is working, it has edge and are better and credible than bharat-rakshak.com and indiandefencereview.com since they are mentioning original sources. And to what you're referring as critical analysis, the points you are presenting themselves needs to confirmed and as to going for new aircraft, that's not rocket science, every body does so after war and PAF was a smaller Air Force than IAF. Since Pakistan's edge is mentioned in various sources(not talking about those which cannot be confirmed), there's not a single source which mention India's edge. Moreover Indian official figures as well as neutral figures support Pakistan's edge argument for which you have nothing reasonable to refute. Rest stupid loopholes can be found from anywhere which are good for timeless. So in the light of this discussion more discussion with you people is useless as we both have presented what could have been presented. I think we should go for arbitration. USaamo ( t@lk) 01:04, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should this article be mentioning Pakistan's edge and victory in the aerial warfare owing to the already added sources in the article and new sources in above section? USaamo ( t@lk) 11:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
The air war therefore, although dramatic, did not alter the strategic balance to any large degree". "
Air war appears to have gone in Pakistan's favour". "
Ultimately, ... the reliance on US spart parts hurt the PAF more than the IAF and, in a long conflict, PAF would have struggled to maintain its level and effectiveness". I don't even believe that the air war went in Pakistan's favour. It only "
appears so" because of Pakistan's own published numbers, which I think are fake. Those planes were out of commission even till the 1971 war, as I mentioned in the above discussion. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 23:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Aman.kumar.goel: I think your comment is not necessary here since you are a party to this ongoing dispute and you had given your opinion above and we have had long discussion as to it. Let others examine these all sources and give opinion. Thanks! USaamo ( t@lk) 13:14, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Firstly, the article should try to avoid declaring which side has a superiority or not, as I have mentioned in my comment above already. Secondly, what is the basis of Pakistani 'edge' anyway? The losses of IAF in terms of air craft were more but that doesn't give the complete picture because Indian aircraft were mostly destroyed on the ground, which doesn't show the offensive strength of IAF. 36 were destroyed by bombing by PAF but while fighting over Pakistan only 14 were lost in air. If one analyses the aerial combat, one really can't say that Pakistan had achieved anything strategically over the IAF at all. If causalities defined Victory, the Soviets wouldn't have won on the Eastern Front. Thankfully, it's the objectives being fulfilled, and the objective of the Air Force was to support the advancement of the army. Note: I still don't believe that the wiki needs to explicitly tell which side had an edge, be it Pakistan or India. Field Marshal Aryan ( talk) 06:43, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Cthomas3: Wikipedia should mention about the victor if neutral and reliable sources says so. Main article of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 is mentioning Indian edge as per assessment of losses then why not this subpage about aerial battle. Moreover most of the neutral sources presented in above discussion explicitly mention about Pakistan's edge and victory. Indian editors here are refuting them as per their narrative but I want them to be examined by neutral editors. It is ironic of them that Indian military sites and local news outlets are reliable for them which are cited in the article and giving most of Indian account while they refute Pakistan's account even when it is from neutral and reputable sources of international media. Moreover there is no source to refute Pakistan's edge and victory in aerial warfare as well, no one mentioned about Indian victory or edge in in it, not even Indian sources themselves. USaamo ( t@lk) 12:42, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Kautilya3: what you're saying is a typical denial and twisting of facts. The account you've added and claiming to be the best is simply saying about the aerial battle of 1965 that Pakistan edged in it. Rest about whether air war altered the strategic balance to a large degree or not is not important for here since we are only concerned with aerial battle here, not the whole war. Even if according to you it didn't alter strategic balance to a large degree, so what, Indian Air Force still suffered and Pakistan Air Force surprised them in the war even being much inferior in numbers and had clear edge in their domain according to neutral sources. So I think howsoever strategic balance was, let the main 1965 war page deal with it. USaamo ( t@lk) 14:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Here are some of verified, neutral sources mentioning Pakistan's edge and victory in Indo-Pakistani Air War of 1965. None of them is a Pakistani source, all are from well reputed international newspapers, journals and authors.
"During the last days of the war Pakistani aircraft flew over Indian cities and airbases without any response from the opposing side. Thus the outnumbered PAF emerged triumphant over a four times larger force." [1]
“For the PAF, the 1965 War was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel”. [2]
"The ground forces of the two countries appeared to be evenly matched, and their respective offensives (although involving approximately 6000 casualties on each side) were indecisive. The Pakistan Air Force, however, emerged with great credit from its conflict with the Indian Air Force, destroying 22 IAF aircraft in air-to-air combat for the loss of only eight of its own – a remarkable achievement considering that the PAF faced odds of nearly four to one." [3]
"In Sep 1965 a festering border dispute between India and Pakistan erupted into full scale war. The Indian possessed the larger air force numerically, composed mainly of British and French types- Hawker Hunter, Folland Gnat and Dassault Mystere fighters, Dassault Ouragons fighter-bombers and English electric Canberra bombers. The smaller but highly trained Pakistan Air Force was equipped in large part with F-86F Sabers, plus a few F-104 Starfighters. Fighting lasted little more than two weeks, but during that time, Pakistan gained a definite ascendancy in the air." [4]
"The 23-day conflict in September 1965 represented the zenith of the Pakistan Air Force and could justify claims to be its country's crowning glory." [5]
"The Pakistan Air Force did well in the conflict and probably had the edge. When hostilities broke out, the Pakistan Air Force with around 100 F-86s faced an enemy with five times as many combat aircraft; the Indians were also equipped with comparatively modern aircraft inventory." [6]
"Pakistan’s success in the air means that she has been able to redeploy her relatively small army — professionally among the best in Asia — with impunity, plugging gaps in the long front in the face of each Indian thrust." [7]
"One thing I am convinced of is that Pakistan morally and even physically won the air battle against immense odds." [8]
References
- ^ "Pakistan Air Force Combat Experience | War With India - 1965". GlobalSecurity.org.
{{ cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status ( link)- ^ "Wide Experience Marks Pakistani Pilot Force". Aviation Week: 45. 2 December 1968.
- ^ Brown, Ashley; Reed, Jonathan (1990). The Air Forces. Harrisburg, PA: National Historical Society. p. 111. ISBN 978-0918678508.
- ^ Shores, Christopher (1983). Air Aces. Presidio Press. p. 174. ISBN 978-0891411666.
- ^ Singh, Pushpindar; Rikhye, Ravi; Steinemann, Peter (1991), Fiza'ya: Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force, Society for Aerospace Studies, p. 26, ISBN 978-81-7002-038-7
- ^ Werrell, Kenneth P. (2013), Sabres Over MiG Alley: The F-86 and the Battle for Air Superiority in Korea, Naval Institute Press, pp. 188–, ISBN 978-1-61251-344-7
- ^ Seale, Patrick (12 September 1965). "Shouting more, shooting less". The Observer London.
- ^ Preston, Peter (24 September 1965), "Pakistan's victory in the air", The Guardian
USaamo ( t@lk) 21:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
As to sources presented above, they have their original sources cited well and are verified. There are many other sources as well, as I gave in above section and also in the article you're referring to but I'm looking for their original sources to add them so that their should be no ambiguity. As to WP:HISTRS, I know it's hard for you to accept it even if I present a dozen more because of obvious reasons understandable from above sections so I look for neutral and uninvolved peers to review them to determine whether they are or not up to WP:HISTRS. USaamo ( t@lk) 22:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
References
Kautilya3 ( talk) 19:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
119.153.47.247 ( talk) 12:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Here is what a neutral said about the Pakistani figures:
As expected, claims by each side varied greatly and while the PAF admitted only 19 losses, the Indian Armed Forces claimed as many as 73 aircraft kills, although the latter would include kills from post war incidents and from Army Aviation as well. While the latter figure has been scaled down over the years, disparities still remained. For example, the PAF could boast of 120 F-86F (6 squadrons) during the 1965 war but had no more than 2 squadrons (Sqn Nos 15 and 16) of F-86F during the 1971 war. While India claimed a larger number of B-57Bs, the PAF admitted no more than 4 losses to all causes, including accidents. Yet, the PAF which started out with 26 B-57B [9], and 2 RB-57D/F before the 1965 war (not including another two ex-USAF RB-57F on loan), had only 18 B-57B and a single RB-57D/F in inventory by 1971, although 2 flying accidents between the years were known. Pakistan had also claimed to have lined up its fleet of five C-130s in order to prove that none were lost but once again, the actual number of C-130s acquired was six, according to a veteran PAF author.[9] The credibility of Pakistani versions has always taken a beating with incidents such as the MM Alam fairytale [7] and other strange claims including ones that the IAF was operating MiG-19s and MiG-23s [14]. A retired Pakistani General admits [10] "It appears that 1965 war was not rationally analyzed in Pakistan at all. In this regard the Pakistani military decision-makers were swept away in the emotional stream of their own propaganda!". As Air Commodore Jasjit Singh AVSM VrC VM (Retd), Director, Center for Air Power Studies, also points out, demands for emergency supplies of additional aircraft [11] from Indonesia, Iraq, Iran, Turkey and China, within 10 days of the war, was hardly supportive of the claim that the PAF had lost less than a squadrons worth of aircraft in the conflict. The "Official History of the 1965 war" [1] puts Pakistan's combat losses at 43 aircraft, although a lot of the former's information is derived from Pakistani accounts. [1]
This was published in the ORBAT web site, whose editor is Ravi Rikhye, one of the authors of Fiza'ya that you cited, but quoted only one substance-less sentence from it. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 21:15, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
References
Well that's typical of you. Your all the points were answered but you people are in constant denial. I want to know your definition of neutral which makes Ravi Rikhye neutral while writing for ORBAT but not in his book where he admitted the edge of PAF. And also that makes ORBAT neutral but not the Global Security, Aviation Week and Guardian, Observer etc. Similarly the one that makes Indian authors neutral but not the independent authors from outside. You need to stick to a point. You cannot go like where independent sources have favoured India is all oky but where they favoured Pakistan as per ground realities, they become hardly neutral.
USaamo (
t@lk)
10:36, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Since IAF lost more aircraft than PAF, doesn't that make it an Attritional Victory for Pakistan? http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/iaf-defeated-paf-in-1965-war/ Xtreme o7 ( talk) 18:47, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
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Request change/addition of information on events of 18 sept. see pilots article for information.
On 18 September a Sabre was shot down by a Gnat Piloted by Squadron Leader Amar Jit Singh Sandhu of No 23 Squadron. [1] Dvj1992 ( talk) 07:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
References
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Make correction to edit “ On 18 September, a Sabre was shot down by a Gnat over Amritsar piloted by Amar Jit Singh Sandu”
Last name/ Surname mistake it is “Sandhu” not “Sandu” and add rank S/L.
Change to “ On 18 September, a Sabre was shot down by a Gnat over Amritsar piloted by S/L Amar Jit Singh Sandhu” Also link to page below /info/en/?search=Amar_Jit_Singh_Sandhu Dvj1992 ( talk) 11:07, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
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CopyEdit this from the main
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
However, in terms of aerial warfare, the PAF managed an upper hand over the combat zones despite being numerically inferior. [1] [2] [3] [4] 2400:ADC1:477:8500:965:F698:416D:68F6 ( talk) 13:22, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
2400:ADC1:477:8500:965:F698:416D:68F6 ( talk) 12:05, 8 June 2023 (UTC)However, in terms of aerial warfare, the PAF managed an upper hand over the combat zones despite being numerically inferior. [5] [6] [7] [8]
References
In the final analysis Pakistan maintained air superiority over the combat zones from 6 September onwards
Careful analysis available in the public domain tetnds to list IAF losses as sixty-five aircraft to all causes and PAF losses at twenty-five aircraft....Finally, there was agreement that the losses suffered by the IAF were not commensurate with the value gained in terms of the effect on the adversary and its combat efficiency.
point that the PAF's superior strategy enabled it to win air superiority by 5 September bears serious consideration. The pre-emptive air strike over the Indian air fields and the subsequent provocation of the IAF to fight over the heavily defended Pakistani airfields did indeed resulted in heavy attrition of the IAF's aircraft.
In the brief 1965 war between India and Pakistan, the two air forces were heavily engaged. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was able to inflict greater casualties despite being smaller. This owed much to the technical superiority of the PAF's F-86 Sabres over the IAF's Hunters and Mysteres.
In the final analysis Pakistan maintained air superiority over the combat zones from 6 September onwards
Careful analysis available in the public domain tetnds to list IAF losses as sixty-five aircraft to all causes and PAF losses at twenty-five aircraft....Finally, there was agreement that the losses suffered by the IAF were not commensurate with the value gained in terms of the effect on the adversary and its combat efficiency.
point that the PAF's superior strategy enabled it to win air superiority by 5 September bears serious consideration. The pre-emptive air strike over the Indian air fields and the subsequent provocation of the IAF to fight over the heavily defended Pakistani airfields did indeed resulted in heavy attrition of the IAF's aircraft.
In the brief 1965 war between India and Pakistan, the two air forces were heavily engaged. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was able to inflict greater casualties despite being smaller. This owed much to the technical superiority of the PAF's F-86 Sabres over the IAF's Hunters and Mysteres.
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It seems to me that the article specifically chronicles only the Indian side of things and significantly neglects the Pakistani side. It appears lopsided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.73.14.62 ( talk) 22:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I've edited some of the text in the Main Battle section, first para. It stated that the IAF Vampire was outdated and the PAF F-86's were more modern, so the latter bested the former. While India obtained the Vampires earlier in 1949, whereas the PAF obtained the F-86's in 1955, both aircraft are of the same era, and both were obsolete by Western standards by the end of the '50s. I will not add references here-this can be verified by the main Wikipedia articles on the Vampire and the F-86. There was, however, a major performance difference, as the F-86 had a higher top speed, ceiling, and acknowledged better performance than the Vampire. The Mystere was developed in the '50s so it's more modern. In fact, it was used by the French upto the '80s. This I've put into the article. Also made some grammatical/typo corrections Philcal213 ( talk) 11:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC) it seems more as if it is anti india article, and i dont know how it came on wikipedia. dragonphoenix ( talk) 14:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
I have updated the assessment of this article from Stub to Start as there is too much content now for it just to be a stub. I have attempted to fix some of the problems that I found with this article, but I have no knowledge of the subject at all. I can only help with copy editing. As such it requires a few experts to bring this article up to a B class standard. I believe that the following improvements could be made:
Just a few ideas. Hope this helps. Once these have been done, you might consider re-assessment. This can be done by adding the article to the list at WP:MHA. If you would like more detailed comments, please consider adding the article for peer review. This can be done by adding it to the list at WP:MHPR. — AustralianRupert ( talk) 08:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the following text from the article as it is just a list of quotes, which is not encyclopedic. Also, they were just taken from the PAF website, hence I don't believe that they can be considered exactly neutral. Nevertheless, I am placing them here on the talk page for safekeeping and debate.
The source of the quotes could be used, if they were to be added into the article in an encyclopedic manner, say for instance in an analysis section, however, just having a list of quotes is not good practice. This isn't meant to be an advertisement. Also, having them in the article as they currently stand creates neutrality issues. It would be better to actually locate the original sources, rather than just quoting the PAF website, as even if it is true (I am making no judgements as I am completely neutral on this issue) it just looks like a non independent source. — AustralianRupert ( talk) 01:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite the Indians claiming superiority over Pakistani Airforce in Aerial Warfare, Independent sources however present a different potrait. Some of the overviews by Western Defence analysts and Defence Issues are given as under.
“By all accounts the courage displayed by the Pakistan Air Force pilots is reminiscent of the bravery of the few young and dedicated pilots who saved this country from Nazi invaders in the critical Battle of Britain during the last war.” (Patrick Seale, The Observer, London, September 12, 1965.) verification needed * http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/ “Pakistan’s air force gained a remarkable victory over India in this brief 22 day war exploiting its opponents weaknesses in exemplary style – Deeply shaken by reverse, India began an extensive modernisation and training program, meanwhile covering its defeat with effective propaganda smoke screen.” (Encyclopaedia of Aircraft printed in several countries by Orbis Publications – Volume 5) verification needed* http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/
“Pakistan claims to have destroyed something like 1/3rd the Indian Air Force, and foreign observers, who are in a position to know say that Pakistani pilots have claimed even higher kills than this; but the Pakistani Air Force are being scrupulously honest in evaluating these claims. They are crediting Pakistan Air Force only those killings that can be checked from other sources.” (Roy Meloni, American Broadcasting Corporation, September 15, 1965.) verification needed* http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/
“India’s barbarity is mounting in fury as the Indian army and Air Force, severely mauled, are showing signs of demoralisation. The huge losses suffered by the Indian Armed Forces during the last 12 days of fighting could not be kept from the Indian public and in retaliation, the Indian armed forces are indulging in the most barbaric methods.”
“The Chief of Indian Air Force could no longer ensure the safety of Indian air space. A well known Indian journalist, Mr Frank Moraes, in a talk from All-india radio, also admitted that IAF had suffered severe losses and it was no use hiding the fact and India should be prepared for more losses.“ (Indonesian Herald, September 11, 1965.) verification needed http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/
“For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel. (USA – Aviation Week & Space Technology – December 1968 issue.) verification needed http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/
“India is claiming all-out victory. I have not been able to find any trace of it. All I can see are troops, tanks and other war material rolling in a steady towards the front … These muslims of Pakistan are natural fighters and they ask for no quarter and they give none. In any war, such as the one going on between India and Pakistan right now, the propoganda claims on either side are likely to be startling. But if I have to take bet today, my money would be on the Pakistan side.“ (Roy Maloni- American Broadcasting Corporation) verification needed
"Indian pilots are inferior to Pakistan’s pilots and Indian officers’ leadership has been generally deplorable. India is being soundly beaten by a nation which is outnumbered by a four and a half to one in population and three to one three to one in size of armed forces.” (Sunday Times, London, September 19, 1965.) verification needed http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/pakistan-air-force-a-proud-history/ 00:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
```this is the most pathetic piece of nonsense i have ever seen, india has never lost a battle against pakistan, i have a feeling that all india pakistan articles have a heavy pakistan influence, and have nothing but biased INformation``` dragonphoenix ( talk) 15:08, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Two sources are presented here, one is an article published in the Flight International magazine, written by the British author John Fricker, the other is a book authored by Pradeep P. Barua. URLs are provided. Whether claims in the Flight International article are true or not, surely the info merits inclusion because of the prestigious source.
Reference: John Fricker, "Pakistan's Air Power", Flight International magazine, published 1969 (page 89), can be viewed at flightglobal.com archives (URL: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%200111.html?search=Pakistan%20Mirage%205), Retrieved: 21 September 2009
John Fricker, "Pakistan's Air Power", Flight International magazine, published 1969 (page 90), can be viewed at flightglobal.com archives (URL: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%200112.html), Retrieved: 21 September 2009
The State at War in South Asia, by Pradeep P. Barua, pages 193-194 (can be viewed at URL: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FIIQhuAOGaIC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=Dassault+Mirage+1971+war&source=bl&ots=-0DHCO00yR&sig=U7ZTAI86rgnWH1Lr3GpoeBYh3kM&hl=en&ei=4ZWlSsGSONCOjAfJhaHcAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=Dassault%20Mirage%201971%20war&f=false)
-- Hj108 ( talk) 20:41, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
M.A.R 1993 ( talk) 15:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC) However it is very difficult to judge the true victorious air force in the air war of 1965. Many facts have been remain unknown. However, if we look at the losses incurred on aircrafts and bases, it is vividly verified that the PAF have an upper hand over IAF. PAF lost hardly a squadron of its fighting force whereas IAF lost 75-110 aircrafts. PAF destroyed 38 aircrafts in air-to-air combats and IAF almost 10. PAF continously crater Pathankot, Halwara, Adampur and Jamnagar and most of the time these air bases were almost inoperable, and IAF had to flow sorties from farther airbases like Agra. On the other hand PAF bases were not battered profusely. Isn't this prove the fact that PAF gained wartime air dominance over Indo-Pakistani skies? Air war has been described on all PAF websites and Battle for Pakistan by John Fricker is the most authentic book regarding air war of 1965. So, be fair and result of Air war must be edited because beliveing in one's victory doesn't make your armed forces fragile. As when there is a war one has to win and one has to lose. Am I right?
I am feeling glad as you at least accepted a PYRRHIC PAF victory at least. M.A.R 1993 ( talk) 16:28, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Both of these objectives were complete failure and not achieved.
All of these objectives were achieved. So in deciding victory it does not matter who took more losses until they achieved their aims. -- UplinkAnsh ( talk) 07:26, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
the article has been edited several times by vandals and i'm guessing by biased trolls who favor the Pakistani side here and somehow apparently it's become the war of "1969" according the template on the very top left of the page, the result before stated the PAF achieved tactical air superiority (which they didn't) and it was there victory admins please act put the page on semi protection...........-- Honorprevails123 ( talk) 04:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
IT says only 2 planes shot by Alam, so changed accordingly-- Ðℬig XЯaɣ 08:25, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
With Recent Edits , there has been multiple attempts to include claims about MM ALAM in the article and removing any content that disputes it. and thereby completely ignoring various facts related to the incident. do have alook http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Chapter5.html and it seems the artivcle now needs immediate cleaning after the recent edits. -- Ðℬig XЯaɣ 21:39, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I think this page should be moved to Indo-Pakistani Air War of 1965 and the current one should be redirected to that. For example see: Indo-Pakistani Naval War of 1971 and all other Indo-Pakistani war articles' name format. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 08:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Done
WP:Silent consensus &
WP:Bold. --
lTopGunl (
talk)
23:50, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Saw a content removal [2] by User TopGun. also the edit summary by the same user shows the attitude of the editor. googling is not your responsibility agreed but then the content removal is also not your responsibility. If you cant or dont want to look for truth and citations, then its better to leave it for others too look for. Thats why the citation needed tags are for. -- Ðℬig XЯaɣ 18:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
[3] Is hardly written in a neutral manner. Darkness Shines ( talk) 15:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
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I'm removing the maintenance tags as I don't see any bias in the article or see the article written as a person essay. warrior4321 ✆ talk ✉ mail 17:38, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
A bunch of POV pushers and likely socks are making this article even more messed up than it already is. Full protection may be imminent. In the meantime, editors of good faith need to sort this stuff out. This edit, for instance, is pretty idiotic since there is no Coggins citation anywhere. The same applies to the Van Creveld-sourced claim in the lead: there is no entry for Van Cleveld in a Works Cited list. Besides, the main text is written in just godawful English and needs a copy edit, as well as some structure. It contains random sentences like this one, "On 4 September, an F-86 Sabre was lost. The PAF claimed the cause to be friendly ground fire[21] while the IAF claimed to have shot it down", sourced to some wholly unreliable warloving hobbyist's website. I don't see how Bharat Rakshak can be called a reliable source in this context (see this edit--but that editor has already been blocked as a Nangparbat sock--yawn). There are problems all over the place. Fix them please. Drmies ( talk) 17:05, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
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High level of bias from both sides, hence I would like the admin to enforce a ban on editing. Hamza 33 99 ( talk) 23:26, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
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Hullo,
I have some data on IAF's activity or lack of it vs PAF in East Pakistan. It differs slightly from the existing text and needs to be reworded and integrated with the text that appears in this article:
Of the 460 aircraft that the IAF had in total, approximately 270 combat-worthy IAF aircraft were on the western front against about 170 PAF combat aircraft. Another author indicates that the IAF had a large deployment of squadrons on the eastern front, leaving it with only around 290 aircraft in the west, against his researched Pakistani aircraft strength of 203.
Aggressive but ill-directed IAF Canberra and Hunter strikes on the night of 6 September and in the early hours of 7 September against PAF airfields in Chittagong, Kurmitola and Jessore drew a strong response from 14 Squadron PAF against Kalaikunda, Central Air Command’s pivotal base in Bengal. Sadly, IAF had such poor intelligence about the location of the only Sabre squadron in East Pakistan that it attacked every base there except Tejgaon, the air base outside Dacca, where 14 Squadron PAF had a detachment of 12 F-86 Sabre Jets. With zero air defence and aircraft parked in the open at Air Force Station Kalaikunda, IAF lost eight aircraft (four Canberras plus four Vampires) to two Sabre strikes on 7 September. However, PAF’s 14 Squadron was bested in an epic aerial battle over Kalaikunda the same morning as a young ace with 14 Squadron of the IAF, Flt Lt A Cooke, flying a Hunter, shot down two Sabres. Mohan, Jagan; Chopra.
"The India–Pakistan Air War of 1965, n. 10, p. 178". Journal of Defence Studies, New Delhi. {{
cite journal}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |subscription=
(
help)
I note that F/L Cooke's wingman is not named. He was Fg Offr Subodh Chandra Mamgain 6760 GD(P), who was awarded a VrC.
[1] Comments welcome. I'll wait till May 10...That OK?
--
Moitraanak (
talk)
19:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Anaguaydf: with this you are doing same mistake as USaamo by assuming that source exists on the article about Pakistan having edge over India in the air war but there is no reliable source which can confirm so. We cannot rely on a supposed Guardian report from 1965 because it is not WP:HISTRS. Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 06:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
The claims and admissions by the two sides in the conflict are terribly frustrating," which means basically that he couldn't figure out who is lying and who is telling the truth. Most of the authors labelled as "neutral claims" on the page are also hardly neutral. They are American writers trying to write about American equipment, prone to taking Pakistani claims at face value or at least tending to remain credulous in their own interest.
It appears that 1965 war was not rationally analyzed in Pakistan at all. In this regard the Pakistani military decision-makers were swept away in the emotional stream of their own propaganda!.(Agha Humayun Amin) [3]
Since the war was based on a big lie and was presented to the nation as a great victory, the Army came to believe its own fiction and used Ayub as a role model and continued to fight unwarranted wars--the 1971 war and the Kargil fiasco in 1999.(Nur Khan) [4]
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Well I'm not surprised as to what you said and even if a couple of them have missing titles, most of them have their source available. And even if just one of it is working, it has edge and are better and credible than bharat-rakshak.com and indiandefencereview.com since they are mentioning original sources. And to what you're referring as critical analysis, the points you are presenting themselves needs to confirmed and as to going for new aircraft, that's not rocket science, every body does so after war and PAF was a smaller Air Force than IAF. Since Pakistan's edge is mentioned in various sources(not talking about those which cannot be confirmed), there's not a single source which mention India's edge. Moreover Indian official figures as well as neutral figures support Pakistan's edge argument for which you have nothing reasonable to refute. Rest stupid loopholes can be found from anywhere which are good for timeless. So in the light of this discussion more discussion with you people is useless as we both have presented what could have been presented. I think we should go for arbitration. USaamo ( t@lk) 01:04, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should this article be mentioning Pakistan's edge and victory in the aerial warfare owing to the already added sources in the article and new sources in above section? USaamo ( t@lk) 11:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
The air war therefore, although dramatic, did not alter the strategic balance to any large degree". "
Air war appears to have gone in Pakistan's favour". "
Ultimately, ... the reliance on US spart parts hurt the PAF more than the IAF and, in a long conflict, PAF would have struggled to maintain its level and effectiveness". I don't even believe that the air war went in Pakistan's favour. It only "
appears so" because of Pakistan's own published numbers, which I think are fake. Those planes were out of commission even till the 1971 war, as I mentioned in the above discussion. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 23:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Aman.kumar.goel: I think your comment is not necessary here since you are a party to this ongoing dispute and you had given your opinion above and we have had long discussion as to it. Let others examine these all sources and give opinion. Thanks! USaamo ( t@lk) 13:14, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Firstly, the article should try to avoid declaring which side has a superiority or not, as I have mentioned in my comment above already. Secondly, what is the basis of Pakistani 'edge' anyway? The losses of IAF in terms of air craft were more but that doesn't give the complete picture because Indian aircraft were mostly destroyed on the ground, which doesn't show the offensive strength of IAF. 36 were destroyed by bombing by PAF but while fighting over Pakistan only 14 were lost in air. If one analyses the aerial combat, one really can't say that Pakistan had achieved anything strategically over the IAF at all. If causalities defined Victory, the Soviets wouldn't have won on the Eastern Front. Thankfully, it's the objectives being fulfilled, and the objective of the Air Force was to support the advancement of the army. Note: I still don't believe that the wiki needs to explicitly tell which side had an edge, be it Pakistan or India. Field Marshal Aryan ( talk) 06:43, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Cthomas3: Wikipedia should mention about the victor if neutral and reliable sources says so. Main article of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 is mentioning Indian edge as per assessment of losses then why not this subpage about aerial battle. Moreover most of the neutral sources presented in above discussion explicitly mention about Pakistan's edge and victory. Indian editors here are refuting them as per their narrative but I want them to be examined by neutral editors. It is ironic of them that Indian military sites and local news outlets are reliable for them which are cited in the article and giving most of Indian account while they refute Pakistan's account even when it is from neutral and reputable sources of international media. Moreover there is no source to refute Pakistan's edge and victory in aerial warfare as well, no one mentioned about Indian victory or edge in in it, not even Indian sources themselves. USaamo ( t@lk) 12:42, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Kautilya3: what you're saying is a typical denial and twisting of facts. The account you've added and claiming to be the best is simply saying about the aerial battle of 1965 that Pakistan edged in it. Rest about whether air war altered the strategic balance to a large degree or not is not important for here since we are only concerned with aerial battle here, not the whole war. Even if according to you it didn't alter strategic balance to a large degree, so what, Indian Air Force still suffered and Pakistan Air Force surprised them in the war even being much inferior in numbers and had clear edge in their domain according to neutral sources. So I think howsoever strategic balance was, let the main 1965 war page deal with it. USaamo ( t@lk) 14:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Here are some of verified, neutral sources mentioning Pakistan's edge and victory in Indo-Pakistani Air War of 1965. None of them is a Pakistani source, all are from well reputed international newspapers, journals and authors.
"During the last days of the war Pakistani aircraft flew over Indian cities and airbases without any response from the opposing side. Thus the outnumbered PAF emerged triumphant over a four times larger force." [1]
“For the PAF, the 1965 War was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel”. [2]
"The ground forces of the two countries appeared to be evenly matched, and their respective offensives (although involving approximately 6000 casualties on each side) were indecisive. The Pakistan Air Force, however, emerged with great credit from its conflict with the Indian Air Force, destroying 22 IAF aircraft in air-to-air combat for the loss of only eight of its own – a remarkable achievement considering that the PAF faced odds of nearly four to one." [3]
"In Sep 1965 a festering border dispute between India and Pakistan erupted into full scale war. The Indian possessed the larger air force numerically, composed mainly of British and French types- Hawker Hunter, Folland Gnat and Dassault Mystere fighters, Dassault Ouragons fighter-bombers and English electric Canberra bombers. The smaller but highly trained Pakistan Air Force was equipped in large part with F-86F Sabers, plus a few F-104 Starfighters. Fighting lasted little more than two weeks, but during that time, Pakistan gained a definite ascendancy in the air." [4]
"The 23-day conflict in September 1965 represented the zenith of the Pakistan Air Force and could justify claims to be its country's crowning glory." [5]
"The Pakistan Air Force did well in the conflict and probably had the edge. When hostilities broke out, the Pakistan Air Force with around 100 F-86s faced an enemy with five times as many combat aircraft; the Indians were also equipped with comparatively modern aircraft inventory." [6]
"Pakistan’s success in the air means that she has been able to redeploy her relatively small army — professionally among the best in Asia — with impunity, plugging gaps in the long front in the face of each Indian thrust." [7]
"One thing I am convinced of is that Pakistan morally and even physically won the air battle against immense odds." [8]
References
- ^ "Pakistan Air Force Combat Experience | War With India - 1965". GlobalSecurity.org.
{{ cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status ( link)- ^ "Wide Experience Marks Pakistani Pilot Force". Aviation Week: 45. 2 December 1968.
- ^ Brown, Ashley; Reed, Jonathan (1990). The Air Forces. Harrisburg, PA: National Historical Society. p. 111. ISBN 978-0918678508.
- ^ Shores, Christopher (1983). Air Aces. Presidio Press. p. 174. ISBN 978-0891411666.
- ^ Singh, Pushpindar; Rikhye, Ravi; Steinemann, Peter (1991), Fiza'ya: Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force, Society for Aerospace Studies, p. 26, ISBN 978-81-7002-038-7
- ^ Werrell, Kenneth P. (2013), Sabres Over MiG Alley: The F-86 and the Battle for Air Superiority in Korea, Naval Institute Press, pp. 188–, ISBN 978-1-61251-344-7
- ^ Seale, Patrick (12 September 1965). "Shouting more, shooting less". The Observer London.
- ^ Preston, Peter (24 September 1965), "Pakistan's victory in the air", The Guardian
USaamo ( t@lk) 21:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
As to sources presented above, they have their original sources cited well and are verified. There are many other sources as well, as I gave in above section and also in the article you're referring to but I'm looking for their original sources to add them so that their should be no ambiguity. As to WP:HISTRS, I know it's hard for you to accept it even if I present a dozen more because of obvious reasons understandable from above sections so I look for neutral and uninvolved peers to review them to determine whether they are or not up to WP:HISTRS. USaamo ( t@lk) 22:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
References
Kautilya3 ( talk) 19:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
119.153.47.247 ( talk) 12:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Here is what a neutral said about the Pakistani figures:
As expected, claims by each side varied greatly and while the PAF admitted only 19 losses, the Indian Armed Forces claimed as many as 73 aircraft kills, although the latter would include kills from post war incidents and from Army Aviation as well. While the latter figure has been scaled down over the years, disparities still remained. For example, the PAF could boast of 120 F-86F (6 squadrons) during the 1965 war but had no more than 2 squadrons (Sqn Nos 15 and 16) of F-86F during the 1971 war. While India claimed a larger number of B-57Bs, the PAF admitted no more than 4 losses to all causes, including accidents. Yet, the PAF which started out with 26 B-57B [9], and 2 RB-57D/F before the 1965 war (not including another two ex-USAF RB-57F on loan), had only 18 B-57B and a single RB-57D/F in inventory by 1971, although 2 flying accidents between the years were known. Pakistan had also claimed to have lined up its fleet of five C-130s in order to prove that none were lost but once again, the actual number of C-130s acquired was six, according to a veteran PAF author.[9] The credibility of Pakistani versions has always taken a beating with incidents such as the MM Alam fairytale [7] and other strange claims including ones that the IAF was operating MiG-19s and MiG-23s [14]. A retired Pakistani General admits [10] "It appears that 1965 war was not rationally analyzed in Pakistan at all. In this regard the Pakistani military decision-makers were swept away in the emotional stream of their own propaganda!". As Air Commodore Jasjit Singh AVSM VrC VM (Retd), Director, Center for Air Power Studies, also points out, demands for emergency supplies of additional aircraft [11] from Indonesia, Iraq, Iran, Turkey and China, within 10 days of the war, was hardly supportive of the claim that the PAF had lost less than a squadrons worth of aircraft in the conflict. The "Official History of the 1965 war" [1] puts Pakistan's combat losses at 43 aircraft, although a lot of the former's information is derived from Pakistani accounts. [1]
This was published in the ORBAT web site, whose editor is Ravi Rikhye, one of the authors of Fiza'ya that you cited, but quoted only one substance-less sentence from it. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 21:15, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
References
Well that's typical of you. Your all the points were answered but you people are in constant denial. I want to know your definition of neutral which makes Ravi Rikhye neutral while writing for ORBAT but not in his book where he admitted the edge of PAF. And also that makes ORBAT neutral but not the Global Security, Aviation Week and Guardian, Observer etc. Similarly the one that makes Indian authors neutral but not the independent authors from outside. You need to stick to a point. You cannot go like where independent sources have favoured India is all oky but where they favoured Pakistan as per ground realities, they become hardly neutral.
USaamo (
t@lk)
10:36, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Since IAF lost more aircraft than PAF, doesn't that make it an Attritional Victory for Pakistan? http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/iaf-defeated-paf-in-1965-war/ Xtreme o7 ( talk) 18:47, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
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Request change/addition of information on events of 18 sept. see pilots article for information.
On 18 September a Sabre was shot down by a Gnat Piloted by Squadron Leader Amar Jit Singh Sandhu of No 23 Squadron. [1] Dvj1992 ( talk) 07:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
References
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Make correction to edit “ On 18 September, a Sabre was shot down by a Gnat over Amritsar piloted by Amar Jit Singh Sandu”
Last name/ Surname mistake it is “Sandhu” not “Sandu” and add rank S/L.
Change to “ On 18 September, a Sabre was shot down by a Gnat over Amritsar piloted by S/L Amar Jit Singh Sandhu” Also link to page below /info/en/?search=Amar_Jit_Singh_Sandhu Dvj1992 ( talk) 11:07, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
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CopyEdit this from the main
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
However, in terms of aerial warfare, the PAF managed an upper hand over the combat zones despite being numerically inferior. [1] [2] [3] [4] 2400:ADC1:477:8500:965:F698:416D:68F6 ( talk) 13:22, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
2400:ADC1:477:8500:965:F698:416D:68F6 ( talk) 12:05, 8 June 2023 (UTC)However, in terms of aerial warfare, the PAF managed an upper hand over the combat zones despite being numerically inferior. [5] [6] [7] [8]
References
In the final analysis Pakistan maintained air superiority over the combat zones from 6 September onwards
Careful analysis available in the public domain tetnds to list IAF losses as sixty-five aircraft to all causes and PAF losses at twenty-five aircraft....Finally, there was agreement that the losses suffered by the IAF were not commensurate with the value gained in terms of the effect on the adversary and its combat efficiency.
point that the PAF's superior strategy enabled it to win air superiority by 5 September bears serious consideration. The pre-emptive air strike over the Indian air fields and the subsequent provocation of the IAF to fight over the heavily defended Pakistani airfields did indeed resulted in heavy attrition of the IAF's aircraft.
In the brief 1965 war between India and Pakistan, the two air forces were heavily engaged. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was able to inflict greater casualties despite being smaller. This owed much to the technical superiority of the PAF's F-86 Sabres over the IAF's Hunters and Mysteres.
In the final analysis Pakistan maintained air superiority over the combat zones from 6 September onwards
Careful analysis available in the public domain tetnds to list IAF losses as sixty-five aircraft to all causes and PAF losses at twenty-five aircraft....Finally, there was agreement that the losses suffered by the IAF were not commensurate with the value gained in terms of the effect on the adversary and its combat efficiency.
point that the PAF's superior strategy enabled it to win air superiority by 5 September bears serious consideration. The pre-emptive air strike over the Indian air fields and the subsequent provocation of the IAF to fight over the heavily defended Pakistani airfields did indeed resulted in heavy attrition of the IAF's aircraft.
In the brief 1965 war between India and Pakistan, the two air forces were heavily engaged. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was able to inflict greater casualties despite being smaller. This owed much to the technical superiority of the PAF's F-86 Sabres over the IAF's Hunters and Mysteres.