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The fact that IIPM is not accreditated does not need to be in the opening para, since it is not required to be accredited in any case (times of india). If other sources say it does need to be accredited, it is primarily moneycontrol.com, which is only a website, and is not as scredible as india's largest newspaper. So i have let the money control information remain, although it is contentious at best, in the accreditation section/ Iipmalum 04:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
What the The Opening para should or should not inclusde is a judgement based decision - so we need to discuss it. If we cannot come to a consensus, then lets not descend into a revert war! ~instead, we could leave it as unaccredited in the Accreditation Section. Iipmalum 04:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
This section deserves to be removed completely. Any content is old, primarily derogatory, and has no bearing on an encycolpaedia readers interest in an institute. Iipmalum 12:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
And comparing the Mughal empire ~ India and controversy ~ IIPM is a joke, right ;) Iipmalum 12:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I am amused to see this lone on 100% placement at IIPM. There are many other such silly claims in this article - please explain to me why they are allowed to continue to exist? Even IIM A does not have 100% placements, since many students start businesses or choose to find jobs on their own!
Also, the whole accredition topic is a mess - why are you quoting newspapers opinions on a topic only academics should speak on? Thanks, and sincerely, Sunilalagh 17:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree.. I think the 100% placement at IIPM is valid and true! Fairlady2 13:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
IIPM has 100% placements only because they absorb the 85% who don't get placed into their own institution thereby claiming 100% record.
Have cleaned up the page and removed a lot of blatantly non-NPOV information. Have also removed some uncited lies which seem to have been on the page for a month. Looking forward to a cooperative attitude from IIPM employees. Is Dipali still here? Ponytailsnipper 20:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The IIPM (Idiot Institute and Poor Management) is the worst of all the Institutes. I Would like to tell that if u visit their site and try to mail them on the mail IDs which appear, no one will reply and many IDs don't work... They loot the student coming from villages by showing them the glamour...
I've added back some stuff that was wiped off by Iipmalum when he edited the article for the sake of "brevity and relevance". It is not encyclopaedic to delete properly cited information that happens to go against your interests. That's called a cover-up.
However, I have removed some flab from the JAM magazine and advertising claims subsection. There is a separate detailed article for that, so it's best to keep it relatively small here. Let me know if there's a problem with my edit.
I've not touched the opening paragraph since it will open up a fresh can of worms. Maybe other neutral editors like Ambuj can give a fresh perspective as to how we should go about writing it, since previous attempts have ultimately devolved into an edit war.
Thanks,
Max -
You were saying?
18:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
However, it looks to me like the IIPM editors indulge in physical threats, and I suspect carry them out too. Going through the old talk sections I saw User:Makrandjoshi being threatened and told that his address has been found out. And a regular editor, he seems to be absent from this page. Very ominous. Ponytailsnipper 19:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Saxena, i am new to Wikipedia, and did not mean to offend. But I am surprised to see this unethical behavior - Fairlady is genuinely making the beginning of the article neater, and others are messing it up. IIPM has problems, whioch are in the controversy section. Dont Know why they keep pulling it up~to clutter the article. Sunilalagh 06:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes thank you Sunilalagh 11:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Sunil. I am quite surprised that the likes of Ponytailsnipper continue to act childish about making inclusions in the starting para. I think we would all agree that enough discussion has gone into leaving the accreditation bit in its own section below. It really doesnot make sense to bring it up again and again. Fairlady2 04:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that
User:Carlisle Rodham (who has created an account only today) has already made massive changes to the article (
SPA anyone?). While some of the added material has citations, most lines are directly copy-pasted from those sources, which among other things, constitutes severe copyright infringement. Perhaps more importantly, the lines have been written in a biased tone (no surprise since they're a direct copy of the sources they appear in), thus constituting a departure from the Wikipedia policy of
neutral point of view. There is evidence of
original research in some places, for instance, in the opening paragraph where the World Bank citation has been provided, the line reads:
To that effect, organisations like the World Bank have profiled IIPM alumni as being the world's top social entrepreneurs
whereas the source says nothing of this sort. It merely mentions that
Saurav received his Masters in Business Administration from the Indian Institute of Planning and Management (IIPM), New Delhi
The rest of the added text in the opening paragraph is directly pasted from another source (Deccan Herald). Such instances can be found almost everywhere in the article.
After failing to forcibly delete some information that was unfavourable to them, it is unfortunate that the IIPM camp seems to have resorted to frantic efforts that involve dumping as much spurious information as possible and making the article read like IIPM's marketing brochure. I request other neutral editors to look into the matter, and if this trend continues, an RFC or mediation request may have to be made to curb such wiles.
Max - You were saying? 18:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Who are you, Mz Rodham, and what is the reason for this huge edit? Its obviously a lot of effort, which is why I thought it makes sense for you to be able to defend these additions... I dont think reverting it outright, and making a mockery of Wikipedia by putting all those details in the opening para, is a solution... PLease can you all also avoid acronyms- makes it unintelligible for me. thank you. Sunilalagh 04:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The words are used by newspapers right out of their prospectus. Do check. Tc Carlisle Rodham 07:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
i think the content rounds out the article nicely, and supports many points that were previously not cited fully. This is a good set of edits. Thanks Rodham. Iipmalum 09:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Max, it seems difficult to find any problem with this new information. it is obviously relevant to the article, and as i read through your link to indiscriminate information in wikipedia, i saw no connection whatsoever to this article on IIPM.
So, please hepl me out here - I understand Wikipedia is built on consensus and mutual respect - so can you please explain what specifically you have a problem with? I, for one, do not like the intro para so crowded - i think a couple of lines of philosophy regarding the insitute's founding and objectives should be removed.
on the other hand, i definitely think courses like IIPM's are judged based on placements, and that should be in the introduction. Controversy apart, its clear this institute has achieved a great deal, and is going places.
Sunilalagh 04:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I have done major edits to the article recently. I request the editors to go through them. Each edit has been explained well with edit summaries, so it would be easy to understand the rationale behind them. Please do not unilaterally revert without reading and understanding the reasons. — Ambuj Saxena ( talk) 07:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the prescribed way to make edits are to discuss them, arrive at a consensus, and then implement changes. I recognise there is a vast gap in the differences between Mz rodham and Max. However, these changes without discussion wont solve anytihng, and i wont allow it. Kindly list all your proposed changes, and after both sides have agreed, then we can implement.~This is Wikipedia's rules, and we will follow it. Sunilalagh 08:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
You've got the entire Wikipedi process backward, my dear. You are supposed to discuss edits and then make them. ýou seem to be going back ward, making changes first and then asking for reasons to change them. That doesnt make sense. Use consensus. Iipmalum 10:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I guess there's nothing left to say with your sort of attitude. No wonder this page is such a mess with you guys around. Sunilalagh 17:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with leaving it out because it is "controversial". Those are not sufficient grounds for deleting the word. It amounts to vandalism. IIPM is unaccredited. It does not claim to be accredited. So there is no factual ambiguity on it. All counter-arguments are OR and sophistic. I see no valid reason under wiki policy to delete it. I am putting it back. Makrandjoshi 15:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Ambuj about not mixing up controversial and uncontroversial sections. Also, Mr/Ms. Makrandjoshi we have discussed this enough many times to leave questions of acrreditation in its own place below. It does not make sense to place it in the first para. In any case IIPM has mentioned it clearly that they are not and do not seek to be recognised by AICTE for their own reasons. So I do not undertsand why we need to waste our time discussing this matter over and over again. Yes, had IIPM claimed to be accredidated by AICTE or any other government body, without actually being so, than we could have called it controversy. So i think its quite clear. Also, I think we are diluting the whole essence of wikipedia by treating this as a war platform - we should be more concerned about making sure the right things going into the article. I hope we will have a more matured and responsible approach from now on. Fairlady2 03:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
And if you are so opposed to it being just in the opening para, why do you also keep deleting it from the info table at the right? If the whole argument is that accredition facts appear later, then so do other facts. Why not do away with the introduction altogether? Makrandjoshi 06:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Like I said before, the objective of editing the article is to make sure it puts all the ifnormation in th eright perpective in the right manner. But people like you and Ponytailsnipper want to use this as a platform for fighting more on your personal notions. I am removing accreditation from the first para as discussed earlier. It is useless for me to address the questions you are trying to pose because right now, you are just playing with words. Fairlady2 03:39, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I have made a series of edits cleaning up the article of a lot of spurious references and citations. Justifications provided with each edit. have also added a couple of news items. Hope this does not result in me getting more death threats from IIPM thugs. I also find it very weird that IIPM supporters use assumed names of famous buisness-related people like Alam Srinivas(a journalist) and Sunil Alagh (a famous executive). Makrandjoshi 16:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I also noticed sunil alagh was editing this article! Iipmalum 10:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have edited the accredition section to make it as neutral as possible. Hopefully it would be acceptable to all. — Ambuj Saxena ( talk) 10:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I have spruced up the article and made some changes. It looks pretty good now. Hope people stick to wiki etiquette and discuss the issues here and don't engage in just blind reverting. That really won't get anyone anywhere. And I agree with Makrand. Exactly what is the issue over the use of the word "unaccredited" in the opening para? I request my old friend Dips and other IIPM employees to please act with restraint and discuss things before deleting them. Ponytailsnipper 03:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Allow me to try to settle this the wiki way. iipmalum, fairlady2, dips, and all other IIPM employees, do take part in this discussion keeping wiki policy in mind. And rebut points only citing wiki policy. ambuj, max, makrand, please take part too. iipmalum, your response to makrand's attempts at a discussion earlier "you can count?" was in very poor taste. You have also been very rude to max and ambuj, and that is just not the wiki way. Now, about the issue at hand. Wikipedia [ [1]] policy states - The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions. As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral – that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject. Please note - NPOV is not an elimination of viewpoints. By just deleting "unaccredited" from the first para, you are violating wiki policy. If Makrand or I think the word belongs there, it should. It is not a wrong fact. IIPM IS unaccredited. Now, if you don't agree with this, or think it gives "undue weight" to the fact, then I suggest, as I said above, you follow that line up with a line saying - "IIPM clarified/explains that its courses do not fall under the purview of existing governmental accredition agencies in India and thus it has not sought accredition". Just deleting the word because accredition is dealt with in detail later might be an approach that appeals you. But as Makrand said, this point makes the whole introduction irrelevant. If he thinks the word should be there (and I agree with him), then, as per wiki policies, as long as the information is not original research, you have no right to delete it. And I agree with him that deleting the word repeatedly borders on vandalism. Ponytailsnipper 04:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
However, I would like to point out that just you (Mr./Ms. Ponytailsniper) and Makrand do not constitute the sole decision making power and therefore things cannot be considered good enough to be inlcuded just because "you and Makrand Think so". Fairlady2 04:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
As controversies form an important part of this article, I am of the opinion there should be a mention about them in the intro too, to make the intro representative of the article. To reach a middle ground I have not used the word "controversies" in the intro. Just mentioned what IIPM has been accused of, and have stated that IIPM has denied the accusations. Ponytailsnipper 04:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Have you indeed been sued by Dipali Sakhare as she threatened to do in these very talk pages a few weeks back? Did IIPM people also track down your address and threaten or physically harm you? I believe we as editors have a right to know this since if the threats have been carried out, it affects us too. Ponytailsnipper 04:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
What kind of a joker are you?
Relax, Wikipedia is on the internet, and is only an emerging technology.
I cant understand where all the aggression comes from? And your nickname is quite funny! I suppose Freud would love to analyse your condition! Sunilalagh 08:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree Sunil, wiki is seeming to feel more like a playground with a bunch of kids trying to vent out their irritation about whatever....!! Its a sorry state really. 203.76.140.130 11:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
As i thought: Joker. Sunilalagh 06:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
ponytailsnipper is quite hilarious most of the time. So I think that tag suits him well!
Why has nobody mentioned that IMI Belgium seems to be a one-room diploma mill and is unheard of in Belgium! Iipmalum 10:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
"Education experts, however, point out that complying with AICTE norms will put unnecessary pressure on education institutes as they will not be able to upgrade their facilities".
“AICTE has set norms on the student intake and it will prevent most institutes from offering programmes to deserving students. The rules also put restriction on the fee amount besides dictating terms for infrastructure including classroom size,” said an education industry observer.
According to him, most of these schools have an enviable placement track record. “When corporates are ready to take these students and the school is ready to provide the necessary facilities, it won’t be fair on the part of AICTE to say that their notice is in public interest,” the expert said.
I took these lines from here: [2]
Quite nice, no? I'm putting it into the accreditation paragraph. Iipmalum 10:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Folks, all this blind edit-warring has lead to the page being locked. I request you to discuss issues here so that it is not repeated. Let us please have a discussion on the contentious issues. Could someone please tell me, citing wiki policy, what is objectionable about the word "unaccredited" being in the intro and the info-box? Ponytailsnipper 00:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
{{ Editprotected}} Request the admins to add this in the controversies section - In April 2007, Delhi police named two IIPM employees as prime suspects in a hit-and-run case where the victim later died. The IIPM employees, Ashwini Gupta and Gaurav Rawal claim that they didn't hit the man, but found him lying injured and took him to the hospital. They have also claimed that the police officer is demanding bribes for them. [1] Makrandjoshi 18:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Added tax evasion in the controversy section. Have cited a news article from The Hindu, so I hope that IIPM employees don't revert blindly. Makrandjoshi 18:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The point has come where you guys must pursue serious dispute resolution - please open a RfC or request mediation. Either way, you cannot continue to disrupt Wikipedia and create a situation where the article has to be "protected from y'all." Rama's arrow (just a sexy boy) 23:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
We would like the article to start by saying "IIPM is a private unaccredited educational institute.." since the institute itself admits it is not accredited, and has even been served notices by the Government of India's accredition body for the same. Supporters of IIPM keep reverting any such edit. We would also like that there be a line in the opening para which goes to the effect - "IIPM has been involved in controversies regarding accreditation, plagiarism, tax evasion and responses to its critics", because the controversy section has been pushed all the way to the bottom, and IIPM being in these controversies has frequently made headlines in India. Makrandjoshi
The outreach program mentions IIPM's association with over a dozen reputed international business schools. Non-primary sources are provided only for 3 schools. Even these are links to information about one professor each from these schools. Mentioning the whole school's name there is misleading. Only that specific professor's name should be mentioned. In international associations, there is a point using the name of Philip Kotler and Joel Stern, legendary names in marketing without any citation. It has been so for months with no citation provided. CEEMAN which is cited as a source is a self-published source, because its report is just news sent in by members themselves like IIPM. It is not a reliable source. Most of the claims made in that section are very tall and should be verifiable. Points which cite it should also be removed. Makrandjoshi
Guys please tell me whether one should go for this Masters prgmm from iipm, delhi or not..........
This is a junk institute, don't waste your time and money.
The information about IIPM issued notice for tax-evasion|IIPM being found guilty of tax evasion should be in the controversy section because it is a validly cited fact with important encyclopedic information. Anyone who looks up this school on wikipedia either to study in it or have a partnership with it should know it has been guilty of tax evasion, not a very common crime for educational institutes. Makrandjoshi 00:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
How do I get this page opened up? Mrinal Pandey 09:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to know how to start editing on these pages Makrardjoshi 17:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Please note, the above comment is not by me. My name is spelt with an "n" Makrand... these people are up to their dirty tricks again, this time a new one, impersonating me. Makrandjoshi 20:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
If the IIPM is accredited, then it should be a simple matter to indicate the name of the association which has accredited the school. Unless a compelling case can be made that the association which has done the accredidation is not legitimate, then I believe "unaccredited" should not be included in the article since it would constitute an opinion rather than a fact. Watchdog07 Watchdog07 ( talk · contribs)
Best Iipmalum 12:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly, even IMI Belgium, the so-called business school which awards the MBA and BBA degrees to IIPM students, is not on the CEEMAN or EQUIS accredition lists. Makrandjoshi 02:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Have added info about two recent developments. The Monopolies and Restrictive Trade Practices Commission, a body of the Indian government has initiated investigations against IIPM for the tall claims made in its ads. Have given the CNN-IBN story link for it. Have also added information about the tax evasion by IIPM (Mrinal, the Finance Ministry has clearly stated it is this IIPM and not some insti of plantataion management). Have given a link to the Indian government's press bureau. The facts are piling up, and different arms of the government are cracking down on IIPM. Do not revert this edit. Makrandjoshi 02:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I object strongly to these edits by Makrand Joshi... They are unresearched, incorrect and biased. Iipmalum 16:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Makrand Joshi and Max hats off to your patience in dealing with these Dunderheads. You guys are doing excellent job as editors keep it up.
I see many paragraphs have been added without references. I've corrected many of them. Regards, Mrinal Pandey 08:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
And please do specify which paragraphs are without references. Among the info you removed, everything was references, one even from a govt of india website. Makrandjoshi 17:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
You have commented out the contentious info until disputes are resolved. As of now, I am fine with letting it be. But I have no idea how these disputes are going to be resolved. These folks never take part in dispute resolution. And even when the page is editlocked, they disappear, instead of discussing the issues. Once they return, they just revert, and hurl insults in the talk section. You intention in commenting out contentious info is admirable. But having dealt with these folks for over a year, I know they will just take this as a small victory, and shift their revert war to other sections, until the whole article is whitewashed. In fact I can predict what is gonna happen next. The hyenas will turn up, start the revert war, hoping that before the editlock happens again, which it is sure to, theirs' is the last saved version. Makrandjoshi 17:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I dont know why this keeps happening - why cant we all just... GET ALONG? Sunilalagh 12:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Could folks like iipmalum and sunilalagh discuss what specifically is unreferenced and libelous? Let's discuss our differences here Ponytailsnipper 21:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Folks, this page has now been indefinitely locked. Let us discuss contentious issues. Here are the main problems as I see them from the reverts of people like sunilalagh and iipmalum - Mentioning "unaccredited" in the opening para. The institute is not accredited by the accredition bodies set up by the parliament government of India. The institute admits so itself. This is a verifiable fact. Accredition is an important facet of a school. There is no wiki policy which justifies leaving it out. As the NPOV policy suggests, if there is a dispute, both sides of an issue should be mentioned. We can mention unaccredited. And in the next line give a one line justification of the IIPM stance too. - Controversies such as tax evasion, MRTP investigation which are recent. There is absolutely no justification for leaving these out. Yet pro-IIPM editors have been reverting any edits made mentioning them. Ponytailsnipper 22:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the accreditation status is relevant enough to warrant mention in the lead paragraph; it's a notable feature of the school, and even has its own dedicated major section in the article.
I disagree that the tax evasion issue is notable enough to be included in the lead; the school isn't notorious for tax evasion, the government has simply begun a procedural action. The article already contains information about the tax evasion issue, and other issues, in the Controversy section. That's sufficient. Any mention in the lead shouldn't go beyond a general statement saying the school's operational practices have generated controversy. - Amatulic 17:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
As a non-participant (i.e. 'neutral') in this situation, I have come to try and help solve the issues that are causing the article's protection.
If you can answer these questions I would appreciate that, as it will give me a good view of the situation:
I will try and help as much as I can! -- SunStar Net talk 21:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Two different Indians government bodies have initiated action against IIPM for unfair trade practises and misleading advertisements, as announced by the Indian government's Corporate Affairs Minister Prem Chand Gupta.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Education/MRTPC_AICTE_initiate_action_against_IIPM/articleshow/2281117.cms and
http://www.newkerala.com/july.php?action=fullnews&id=53741
I suggest two additions to the wiki. The intro should mention - "The Indian government has issued notices to IIPM for unfair trade practices and misleading advertisements.". Furthermore, this development should be detailed in the controversies section.
Makrandjoshi
04:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Alright, first of all I reverted some changes that ponytailstripper has made. But I request editors to re-edit the changes I've made as I do realise this revert should not have been made in the normal course (ponytailstrippers excluded :-)). Second of all, I'll be archiving this discussion within a day or two. If you have any problems with that, do write that soon :-) And third of all, I guess we'll again succeed in getting this page locked up; a situation that surely should not occur. So it's a request to all the editors (pro or anti or neutral or whatever) to start discussing the changes before changing. Thanks and regards Mrinal Pandey 14:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Due to the edit warring that began the moment the protection was reduced, instead of discussing changes here first, the article has been locked again. The present version is neither Iipmalum's nor Ponytailsnipper's preferred versions (both of which I consider violating WP:NPOV), but rather the previously-locked version with the government investigation sources mentioned above and some citation formatting cleanup. I wanted to include some of Iipmalum's and Ponytailsnipper's less contentious contributions but the article was locked while I was doing it. Ah, well. I hope they discuss their proposed changes here first, and come to an agreement before the article is unlocked again. - Amatulic 04:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Please note that all new discussion should be added at the bottom of the page. Recent discussions will be at the bottom of this page, please respond in the appropriate sections.
The fact that IIPM is not accreditated does not need to be in the opening para, since it is not required to be accredited in any case (times of india). If other sources say it does need to be accredited, it is primarily moneycontrol.com, which is only a website, and is not as scredible as india's largest newspaper. So i have let the money control information remain, although it is contentious at best, in the accreditation section/ Iipmalum 04:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
What the The Opening para should or should not inclusde is a judgement based decision - so we need to discuss it. If we cannot come to a consensus, then lets not descend into a revert war! ~instead, we could leave it as unaccredited in the Accreditation Section. Iipmalum 04:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
This section deserves to be removed completely. Any content is old, primarily derogatory, and has no bearing on an encycolpaedia readers interest in an institute. Iipmalum 12:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
And comparing the Mughal empire ~ India and controversy ~ IIPM is a joke, right ;) Iipmalum 12:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I am amused to see this lone on 100% placement at IIPM. There are many other such silly claims in this article - please explain to me why they are allowed to continue to exist? Even IIM A does not have 100% placements, since many students start businesses or choose to find jobs on their own!
Also, the whole accredition topic is a mess - why are you quoting newspapers opinions on a topic only academics should speak on? Thanks, and sincerely, Sunilalagh 17:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree.. I think the 100% placement at IIPM is valid and true! Fairlady2 13:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
IIPM has 100% placements only because they absorb the 85% who don't get placed into their own institution thereby claiming 100% record.
Have cleaned up the page and removed a lot of blatantly non-NPOV information. Have also removed some uncited lies which seem to have been on the page for a month. Looking forward to a cooperative attitude from IIPM employees. Is Dipali still here? Ponytailsnipper 20:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The IIPM (Idiot Institute and Poor Management) is the worst of all the Institutes. I Would like to tell that if u visit their site and try to mail them on the mail IDs which appear, no one will reply and many IDs don't work... They loot the student coming from villages by showing them the glamour...
I've added back some stuff that was wiped off by Iipmalum when he edited the article for the sake of "brevity and relevance". It is not encyclopaedic to delete properly cited information that happens to go against your interests. That's called a cover-up.
However, I have removed some flab from the JAM magazine and advertising claims subsection. There is a separate detailed article for that, so it's best to keep it relatively small here. Let me know if there's a problem with my edit.
I've not touched the opening paragraph since it will open up a fresh can of worms. Maybe other neutral editors like Ambuj can give a fresh perspective as to how we should go about writing it, since previous attempts have ultimately devolved into an edit war.
Thanks,
Max -
You were saying?
18:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
However, it looks to me like the IIPM editors indulge in physical threats, and I suspect carry them out too. Going through the old talk sections I saw User:Makrandjoshi being threatened and told that his address has been found out. And a regular editor, he seems to be absent from this page. Very ominous. Ponytailsnipper 19:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Saxena, i am new to Wikipedia, and did not mean to offend. But I am surprised to see this unethical behavior - Fairlady is genuinely making the beginning of the article neater, and others are messing it up. IIPM has problems, whioch are in the controversy section. Dont Know why they keep pulling it up~to clutter the article. Sunilalagh 06:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes thank you Sunilalagh 11:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Sunil. I am quite surprised that the likes of Ponytailsnipper continue to act childish about making inclusions in the starting para. I think we would all agree that enough discussion has gone into leaving the accreditation bit in its own section below. It really doesnot make sense to bring it up again and again. Fairlady2 04:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that
User:Carlisle Rodham (who has created an account only today) has already made massive changes to the article (
SPA anyone?). While some of the added material has citations, most lines are directly copy-pasted from those sources, which among other things, constitutes severe copyright infringement. Perhaps more importantly, the lines have been written in a biased tone (no surprise since they're a direct copy of the sources they appear in), thus constituting a departure from the Wikipedia policy of
neutral point of view. There is evidence of
original research in some places, for instance, in the opening paragraph where the World Bank citation has been provided, the line reads:
To that effect, organisations like the World Bank have profiled IIPM alumni as being the world's top social entrepreneurs
whereas the source says nothing of this sort. It merely mentions that
Saurav received his Masters in Business Administration from the Indian Institute of Planning and Management (IIPM), New Delhi
The rest of the added text in the opening paragraph is directly pasted from another source (Deccan Herald). Such instances can be found almost everywhere in the article.
After failing to forcibly delete some information that was unfavourable to them, it is unfortunate that the IIPM camp seems to have resorted to frantic efforts that involve dumping as much spurious information as possible and making the article read like IIPM's marketing brochure. I request other neutral editors to look into the matter, and if this trend continues, an RFC or mediation request may have to be made to curb such wiles.
Max - You were saying? 18:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Who are you, Mz Rodham, and what is the reason for this huge edit? Its obviously a lot of effort, which is why I thought it makes sense for you to be able to defend these additions... I dont think reverting it outright, and making a mockery of Wikipedia by putting all those details in the opening para, is a solution... PLease can you all also avoid acronyms- makes it unintelligible for me. thank you. Sunilalagh 04:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The words are used by newspapers right out of their prospectus. Do check. Tc Carlisle Rodham 07:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
i think the content rounds out the article nicely, and supports many points that were previously not cited fully. This is a good set of edits. Thanks Rodham. Iipmalum 09:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Max, it seems difficult to find any problem with this new information. it is obviously relevant to the article, and as i read through your link to indiscriminate information in wikipedia, i saw no connection whatsoever to this article on IIPM.
So, please hepl me out here - I understand Wikipedia is built on consensus and mutual respect - so can you please explain what specifically you have a problem with? I, for one, do not like the intro para so crowded - i think a couple of lines of philosophy regarding the insitute's founding and objectives should be removed.
on the other hand, i definitely think courses like IIPM's are judged based on placements, and that should be in the introduction. Controversy apart, its clear this institute has achieved a great deal, and is going places.
Sunilalagh 04:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I have done major edits to the article recently. I request the editors to go through them. Each edit has been explained well with edit summaries, so it would be easy to understand the rationale behind them. Please do not unilaterally revert without reading and understanding the reasons. — Ambuj Saxena ( talk) 07:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the prescribed way to make edits are to discuss them, arrive at a consensus, and then implement changes. I recognise there is a vast gap in the differences between Mz rodham and Max. However, these changes without discussion wont solve anytihng, and i wont allow it. Kindly list all your proposed changes, and after both sides have agreed, then we can implement.~This is Wikipedia's rules, and we will follow it. Sunilalagh 08:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
You've got the entire Wikipedi process backward, my dear. You are supposed to discuss edits and then make them. ýou seem to be going back ward, making changes first and then asking for reasons to change them. That doesnt make sense. Use consensus. Iipmalum 10:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I guess there's nothing left to say with your sort of attitude. No wonder this page is such a mess with you guys around. Sunilalagh 17:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with leaving it out because it is "controversial". Those are not sufficient grounds for deleting the word. It amounts to vandalism. IIPM is unaccredited. It does not claim to be accredited. So there is no factual ambiguity on it. All counter-arguments are OR and sophistic. I see no valid reason under wiki policy to delete it. I am putting it back. Makrandjoshi 15:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Ambuj about not mixing up controversial and uncontroversial sections. Also, Mr/Ms. Makrandjoshi we have discussed this enough many times to leave questions of acrreditation in its own place below. It does not make sense to place it in the first para. In any case IIPM has mentioned it clearly that they are not and do not seek to be recognised by AICTE for their own reasons. So I do not undertsand why we need to waste our time discussing this matter over and over again. Yes, had IIPM claimed to be accredidated by AICTE or any other government body, without actually being so, than we could have called it controversy. So i think its quite clear. Also, I think we are diluting the whole essence of wikipedia by treating this as a war platform - we should be more concerned about making sure the right things going into the article. I hope we will have a more matured and responsible approach from now on. Fairlady2 03:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
And if you are so opposed to it being just in the opening para, why do you also keep deleting it from the info table at the right? If the whole argument is that accredition facts appear later, then so do other facts. Why not do away with the introduction altogether? Makrandjoshi 06:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Like I said before, the objective of editing the article is to make sure it puts all the ifnormation in th eright perpective in the right manner. But people like you and Ponytailsnipper want to use this as a platform for fighting more on your personal notions. I am removing accreditation from the first para as discussed earlier. It is useless for me to address the questions you are trying to pose because right now, you are just playing with words. Fairlady2 03:39, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I have made a series of edits cleaning up the article of a lot of spurious references and citations. Justifications provided with each edit. have also added a couple of news items. Hope this does not result in me getting more death threats from IIPM thugs. I also find it very weird that IIPM supporters use assumed names of famous buisness-related people like Alam Srinivas(a journalist) and Sunil Alagh (a famous executive). Makrandjoshi 16:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I also noticed sunil alagh was editing this article! Iipmalum 10:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have edited the accredition section to make it as neutral as possible. Hopefully it would be acceptable to all. — Ambuj Saxena ( talk) 10:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I have spruced up the article and made some changes. It looks pretty good now. Hope people stick to wiki etiquette and discuss the issues here and don't engage in just blind reverting. That really won't get anyone anywhere. And I agree with Makrand. Exactly what is the issue over the use of the word "unaccredited" in the opening para? I request my old friend Dips and other IIPM employees to please act with restraint and discuss things before deleting them. Ponytailsnipper 03:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Allow me to try to settle this the wiki way. iipmalum, fairlady2, dips, and all other IIPM employees, do take part in this discussion keeping wiki policy in mind. And rebut points only citing wiki policy. ambuj, max, makrand, please take part too. iipmalum, your response to makrand's attempts at a discussion earlier "you can count?" was in very poor taste. You have also been very rude to max and ambuj, and that is just not the wiki way. Now, about the issue at hand. Wikipedia [ [1]] policy states - The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions. As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral – that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject. Please note - NPOV is not an elimination of viewpoints. By just deleting "unaccredited" from the first para, you are violating wiki policy. If Makrand or I think the word belongs there, it should. It is not a wrong fact. IIPM IS unaccredited. Now, if you don't agree with this, or think it gives "undue weight" to the fact, then I suggest, as I said above, you follow that line up with a line saying - "IIPM clarified/explains that its courses do not fall under the purview of existing governmental accredition agencies in India and thus it has not sought accredition". Just deleting the word because accredition is dealt with in detail later might be an approach that appeals you. But as Makrand said, this point makes the whole introduction irrelevant. If he thinks the word should be there (and I agree with him), then, as per wiki policies, as long as the information is not original research, you have no right to delete it. And I agree with him that deleting the word repeatedly borders on vandalism. Ponytailsnipper 04:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
However, I would like to point out that just you (Mr./Ms. Ponytailsniper) and Makrand do not constitute the sole decision making power and therefore things cannot be considered good enough to be inlcuded just because "you and Makrand Think so". Fairlady2 04:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
As controversies form an important part of this article, I am of the opinion there should be a mention about them in the intro too, to make the intro representative of the article. To reach a middle ground I have not used the word "controversies" in the intro. Just mentioned what IIPM has been accused of, and have stated that IIPM has denied the accusations. Ponytailsnipper 04:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Have you indeed been sued by Dipali Sakhare as she threatened to do in these very talk pages a few weeks back? Did IIPM people also track down your address and threaten or physically harm you? I believe we as editors have a right to know this since if the threats have been carried out, it affects us too. Ponytailsnipper 04:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
What kind of a joker are you?
Relax, Wikipedia is on the internet, and is only an emerging technology.
I cant understand where all the aggression comes from? And your nickname is quite funny! I suppose Freud would love to analyse your condition! Sunilalagh 08:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree Sunil, wiki is seeming to feel more like a playground with a bunch of kids trying to vent out their irritation about whatever....!! Its a sorry state really. 203.76.140.130 11:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
As i thought: Joker. Sunilalagh 06:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
ponytailsnipper is quite hilarious most of the time. So I think that tag suits him well!
Why has nobody mentioned that IMI Belgium seems to be a one-room diploma mill and is unheard of in Belgium! Iipmalum 10:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
"Education experts, however, point out that complying with AICTE norms will put unnecessary pressure on education institutes as they will not be able to upgrade their facilities".
“AICTE has set norms on the student intake and it will prevent most institutes from offering programmes to deserving students. The rules also put restriction on the fee amount besides dictating terms for infrastructure including classroom size,” said an education industry observer.
According to him, most of these schools have an enviable placement track record. “When corporates are ready to take these students and the school is ready to provide the necessary facilities, it won’t be fair on the part of AICTE to say that their notice is in public interest,” the expert said.
I took these lines from here: [2]
Quite nice, no? I'm putting it into the accreditation paragraph. Iipmalum 10:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Folks, all this blind edit-warring has lead to the page being locked. I request you to discuss issues here so that it is not repeated. Let us please have a discussion on the contentious issues. Could someone please tell me, citing wiki policy, what is objectionable about the word "unaccredited" being in the intro and the info-box? Ponytailsnipper 00:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
{{ Editprotected}} Request the admins to add this in the controversies section - In April 2007, Delhi police named two IIPM employees as prime suspects in a hit-and-run case where the victim later died. The IIPM employees, Ashwini Gupta and Gaurav Rawal claim that they didn't hit the man, but found him lying injured and took him to the hospital. They have also claimed that the police officer is demanding bribes for them. [1] Makrandjoshi 18:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Added tax evasion in the controversy section. Have cited a news article from The Hindu, so I hope that IIPM employees don't revert blindly. Makrandjoshi 18:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The point has come where you guys must pursue serious dispute resolution - please open a RfC or request mediation. Either way, you cannot continue to disrupt Wikipedia and create a situation where the article has to be "protected from y'all." Rama's arrow (just a sexy boy) 23:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
We would like the article to start by saying "IIPM is a private unaccredited educational institute.." since the institute itself admits it is not accredited, and has even been served notices by the Government of India's accredition body for the same. Supporters of IIPM keep reverting any such edit. We would also like that there be a line in the opening para which goes to the effect - "IIPM has been involved in controversies regarding accreditation, plagiarism, tax evasion and responses to its critics", because the controversy section has been pushed all the way to the bottom, and IIPM being in these controversies has frequently made headlines in India. Makrandjoshi
The outreach program mentions IIPM's association with over a dozen reputed international business schools. Non-primary sources are provided only for 3 schools. Even these are links to information about one professor each from these schools. Mentioning the whole school's name there is misleading. Only that specific professor's name should be mentioned. In international associations, there is a point using the name of Philip Kotler and Joel Stern, legendary names in marketing without any citation. It has been so for months with no citation provided. CEEMAN which is cited as a source is a self-published source, because its report is just news sent in by members themselves like IIPM. It is not a reliable source. Most of the claims made in that section are very tall and should be verifiable. Points which cite it should also be removed. Makrandjoshi
Guys please tell me whether one should go for this Masters prgmm from iipm, delhi or not..........
This is a junk institute, don't waste your time and money.
The information about IIPM issued notice for tax-evasion|IIPM being found guilty of tax evasion should be in the controversy section because it is a validly cited fact with important encyclopedic information. Anyone who looks up this school on wikipedia either to study in it or have a partnership with it should know it has been guilty of tax evasion, not a very common crime for educational institutes. Makrandjoshi 00:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
How do I get this page opened up? Mrinal Pandey 09:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to know how to start editing on these pages Makrardjoshi 17:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Please note, the above comment is not by me. My name is spelt with an "n" Makrand... these people are up to their dirty tricks again, this time a new one, impersonating me. Makrandjoshi 20:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
If the IIPM is accredited, then it should be a simple matter to indicate the name of the association which has accredited the school. Unless a compelling case can be made that the association which has done the accredidation is not legitimate, then I believe "unaccredited" should not be included in the article since it would constitute an opinion rather than a fact. Watchdog07 Watchdog07 ( talk · contribs)
Best Iipmalum 12:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly, even IMI Belgium, the so-called business school which awards the MBA and BBA degrees to IIPM students, is not on the CEEMAN or EQUIS accredition lists. Makrandjoshi 02:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Have added info about two recent developments. The Monopolies and Restrictive Trade Practices Commission, a body of the Indian government has initiated investigations against IIPM for the tall claims made in its ads. Have given the CNN-IBN story link for it. Have also added information about the tax evasion by IIPM (Mrinal, the Finance Ministry has clearly stated it is this IIPM and not some insti of plantataion management). Have given a link to the Indian government's press bureau. The facts are piling up, and different arms of the government are cracking down on IIPM. Do not revert this edit. Makrandjoshi 02:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I object strongly to these edits by Makrand Joshi... They are unresearched, incorrect and biased. Iipmalum 16:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Makrand Joshi and Max hats off to your patience in dealing with these Dunderheads. You guys are doing excellent job as editors keep it up.
I see many paragraphs have been added without references. I've corrected many of them. Regards, Mrinal Pandey 08:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
And please do specify which paragraphs are without references. Among the info you removed, everything was references, one even from a govt of india website. Makrandjoshi 17:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
You have commented out the contentious info until disputes are resolved. As of now, I am fine with letting it be. But I have no idea how these disputes are going to be resolved. These folks never take part in dispute resolution. And even when the page is editlocked, they disappear, instead of discussing the issues. Once they return, they just revert, and hurl insults in the talk section. You intention in commenting out contentious info is admirable. But having dealt with these folks for over a year, I know they will just take this as a small victory, and shift their revert war to other sections, until the whole article is whitewashed. In fact I can predict what is gonna happen next. The hyenas will turn up, start the revert war, hoping that before the editlock happens again, which it is sure to, theirs' is the last saved version. Makrandjoshi 17:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I dont know why this keeps happening - why cant we all just... GET ALONG? Sunilalagh 12:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Could folks like iipmalum and sunilalagh discuss what specifically is unreferenced and libelous? Let's discuss our differences here Ponytailsnipper 21:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Folks, this page has now been indefinitely locked. Let us discuss contentious issues. Here are the main problems as I see them from the reverts of people like sunilalagh and iipmalum - Mentioning "unaccredited" in the opening para. The institute is not accredited by the accredition bodies set up by the parliament government of India. The institute admits so itself. This is a verifiable fact. Accredition is an important facet of a school. There is no wiki policy which justifies leaving it out. As the NPOV policy suggests, if there is a dispute, both sides of an issue should be mentioned. We can mention unaccredited. And in the next line give a one line justification of the IIPM stance too. - Controversies such as tax evasion, MRTP investigation which are recent. There is absolutely no justification for leaving these out. Yet pro-IIPM editors have been reverting any edits made mentioning them. Ponytailsnipper 22:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the accreditation status is relevant enough to warrant mention in the lead paragraph; it's a notable feature of the school, and even has its own dedicated major section in the article.
I disagree that the tax evasion issue is notable enough to be included in the lead; the school isn't notorious for tax evasion, the government has simply begun a procedural action. The article already contains information about the tax evasion issue, and other issues, in the Controversy section. That's sufficient. Any mention in the lead shouldn't go beyond a general statement saying the school's operational practices have generated controversy. - Amatulic 17:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
As a non-participant (i.e. 'neutral') in this situation, I have come to try and help solve the issues that are causing the article's protection.
If you can answer these questions I would appreciate that, as it will give me a good view of the situation:
I will try and help as much as I can! -- SunStar Net talk 21:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Two different Indians government bodies have initiated action against IIPM for unfair trade practises and misleading advertisements, as announced by the Indian government's Corporate Affairs Minister Prem Chand Gupta.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Education/MRTPC_AICTE_initiate_action_against_IIPM/articleshow/2281117.cms and
http://www.newkerala.com/july.php?action=fullnews&id=53741
I suggest two additions to the wiki. The intro should mention - "The Indian government has issued notices to IIPM for unfair trade practices and misleading advertisements.". Furthermore, this development should be detailed in the controversies section.
Makrandjoshi
04:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Alright, first of all I reverted some changes that ponytailstripper has made. But I request editors to re-edit the changes I've made as I do realise this revert should not have been made in the normal course (ponytailstrippers excluded :-)). Second of all, I'll be archiving this discussion within a day or two. If you have any problems with that, do write that soon :-) And third of all, I guess we'll again succeed in getting this page locked up; a situation that surely should not occur. So it's a request to all the editors (pro or anti or neutral or whatever) to start discussing the changes before changing. Thanks and regards Mrinal Pandey 14:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Due to the edit warring that began the moment the protection was reduced, instead of discussing changes here first, the article has been locked again. The present version is neither Iipmalum's nor Ponytailsnipper's preferred versions (both of which I consider violating WP:NPOV), but rather the previously-locked version with the government investigation sources mentioned above and some citation formatting cleanup. I wanted to include some of Iipmalum's and Ponytailsnipper's less contentious contributions but the article was locked while I was doing it. Ah, well. I hope they discuss their proposed changes here first, and come to an agreement before the article is unlocked again. - Amatulic 04:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
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