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Frequently asked questions To view an answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: What is the subject of this article?
A1: This article is about a particular misogynistic online subculture of people who self-identify as "involuntary celibates" or "incels" based on their inability to find a romantic or sexual partner. It is not about all people who are unable to find a romantic or sexual partner or all people to whom the phrase "involuntary celibate" could be applied, but only to that subculture. Q2: Why is this article only about the subculture/community of self-identified "incels", and not about the idea of involuntary celibacy more broadly?
A2: It is the subculture which has achieved
notability independent of concepts Wikipedia already covers, such as
sexual frustration,
celibacy, and
sexual abstinence. Although a separate article about the broader concept of involuntary celibacy could be created, such articles have been deleted in the past in favor of coverage in existing articles. Q3: Why is this article so negative?
A3: Articles on Wikipedia reflect the way subjects are covered in
reliable, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The articles cover aspects of those subjects
in accordance with the extent to which those aspects are covered in reliable sources. There are negative elements of the subject in this article because that is the way many of the reliable sources cover it. If coverage of the subject changes, the article should be updated to reflect that. |
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
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Whoever is writing all of this is extremely prejudiced against autistic people, people with social anxiety, and otherwise socially awkward people. This article is blatantly insulting to innocent people and it has no right to exist on Wikipedia or anywhere. I DEMAND THAT YOU CEASE AND APOLOGIZE!!! 37.0.88.17 ( talk) 13:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
@ JusticeAccount3: Regarding this revert, can you please clarify what in that source supports that that individual "worshipped" Elliot Rodger? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 15:19, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Incel is self-evidently a form of sexual slander, used to attack rather than discuss. It is a sex-based slur, since it is oriented towards men only, and also discriminates on the basis of relationship status. It's core claims about some amorphous unfuckable menace are obviously incorrect on their face, since basic criminology 101 is that violence is highly correlated with reproductive success. It has even been postulated as a reproductive strategy. This is very clearly a politicized term, with zero consensus about that to which it refers, if anything. It is associated with far-left extremist ideology and groups which typically support cross sex hormone use, forced race training, and intensified discrimination in hiring/legal system.
This is a core problem with this sorry excuse for an article. It is an exercise in elaborate contempt for reality and the obvious competency crisis afflicting our institutions.
If you want to contest this specific criticism that this article is itself a form of biased, sexual, political henhouse behavior with no academic value please do more than assert, lazily, that my concerns are too "general." That is extremely specific.
This article is predicated on political lying. It violates Wikipedia's tenets of neutrality. You can't dispute this, so you have to exclude the topic from the debate. 2603:9000:E700:6050:7D54:9757:72A0:AB00 ( talk) 20:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Makes sense Dumuzid. However, WP:RS do indeed assert that 'incel' is used as slander, and unfortuneatly to a "ubiquitous" extent. Often against men who arent in a relationship, but not involved with the sub culture. While most of those WP:RS have been purged from the article, a few remain – see "Incel" has also come to be used as an insult against people who do not necessarily identify with the subculture, but who are perceived to be sexually inexperienced, undesirable, or unpopular
in the Lexicology section.
It may be worth pointing out how "incel" has came to be such as impactful slur. Pior to the creation of this article back in 2018, the few quality WP:RS using the term incel invariably did so with the literal meaning (i.e. synonymous with "unwanted celibacy" , a term scholars are increasing using now incel has became such a pejorative.) As such, pre 2018 use of the word incel in the high tier WP:RS (there were admittedly exceptions in lower tier sources) often involved looking at incels sympathetically. Just as intended when the term was originally coined by Alana.
It was this article that redefined incel to refer to a self identified member of the sub-culture. As has been forensically demonstrated on this talk page, the 2018 sources that were cited in support of the term being used primarily to refer to members of the subculture did not actually contain that usage. But the article still redefined the term that way anyway. Due to Wikipedia's influence and the articles high ranking in search results, the new meaning was swiftly adopted by journalists & academics. This led to the creation of many thousands of WP:RS reflecting the then new useage. Which in turn allowed the development of the long standing sentence in the lede introducing incels as characterized by deep resentment, hatred, hostility, sexual objectification, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex …
If one manages to read that full sentence there are over a dozen dehumanising nouns and other intensifiers that are liable to evoke repulsion against incels. It's arguably the most expansive demonising sentence in the history of humanity.
Such a lede might be more understandable if Incels really were largely comprised of misogynistic alt-righters. But they're not. His Majesty's government has just published findings from the worlds largest & most rigorous study of incels to date. (Which has been widely reported both state side & in UK, hence the recent influx of IP interest) It emphasised incel's "very poor mental health” and the fact that incels are politically centre-Left on average. ( But the "5% who agreed that violence against individuals that cause incels harm is often justified were politically centre-right”)
Getting back on topic , even back in 2020
sources were reporting that incel was used as a ubiquitous online insult
against less romantically successful men. Sadly according to a
2023 finding from Pew Research, almost 70% of US young men are now single (showing that "Incels aren't even a minority group anymore" as
another source put it.) That's an awful lot of young guys in the cross hairs for the ubiquitous insult, which many will internalise with all sorts of adverse consequences. Such as the unprecedented recent finding that
Gen Z males are now more anti feminist than their older peers. And sadly, with so much distress in the male half of the youth population, young women aren't immune to contagion effects. Among young women, indicators of poor mental health, suicidal ideology & actual attempts have
risen sharply since 2019. (Much more sharply than among men, and mostly due to reasons unconnected with incels -cf.
Jean Twenge -, though it is a factor.)
Its not all doom & gloom. The 2023 result found only about 30% of young women were single – far less than less than for young men. The discrepancy is in part due to polygyny. And partly the welcome fact that women who lean that way are now more free to form Lesbian pairings. But a far bigger factor is parings with senior men. At least on a secular & individualist level, the benefits when a heterosexual middle aged man pairs up with a new young women are considerable. There can be a months long surge in testosterone, which among other benefits is anxiolytic & often promotes good sleep. With other pleasure inducing hormones, the overall long term effect is better than is possible with any recreational drug. Nothing lasts forever, but with the competition from young men much reduced thanks to the ubiquitous, confidence destroying "incel" insult, it's easy for a senior man of even moderate desirability to find another interested young women. And once again all is groovy.
Still, as a member of that demographic myself, Im confident that only a minority are selfish enough to welcome the help of Wikipedia here, given the impact on less privileged groups. Accordingly, I suggest re-writing this article from scratch. As per my offer back in 2020, I'm happy to do all the work myself, if that's agreeable? ( Im not though up for is engaging is lengthy talk page discussion as happened back then. After many hours of discussion, consensus for most of my proposed changes to make the article more sympathetic to incels was finally achieved on this talk page. Only for most of the improvements to be reverted a few days later! Despite having rewrote many controversial global scope articles, usually the hundreds of hours of research I put into article improvement result in my work remaining in place even more than a decade later. So I'd like to have a plurality of 3 admins agree to my rewrite proposal, without having to further discuss. ) If that's not possible and admins prefer to address the issues here themselves, I'd respectfully suggest they consider going for greater fidelity to what the quality WP:RSs actually say, and closer adherence to WP:OR and WP:NPOV. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 16:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
members of an online community whose main stated grievance is that they desire to have romantic and sexual relationships but are unable to do so. In fact, it says explicitly that
we use the term unwanted celibacy rather than involuntary celibacy because the latter term is sometimes used to refer specifically to Incels (e.g., Moskalenko et al., 2022), whereas we posit an association between unwanted celibacy and misogyny that applies generally. It's doing the same exact thing this article is doing.
Participants perceived high levels of victimhood, anger and misogyny. They also acknowledged a shared worldview among incels which includes identifying feminists as a primary enemy.
Incels are a sub-culture community of men who forge a sense of identity around their perceived inability to form sexual or romantic relationships.If you're expecting that to support your desire to "reverse the redefinition" or whatever, I don't think that source is going to help. If you want to rewrite this article to be about "unwanted celibacy", you're going to need sources that actually discuss it in those terms. Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 17:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under History, first sentence: "The first website to use the term "incel" was "Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project", founded in 1997 by a university student living in Toronto, and known only by her first name, Alana, to discuss her sexual inactivity with others ..."
Request: REMOVE unfounded claim of studentship in Toronto. Sources do not corroborate this claim.
Further, many sources claim Alana graduated from Carleton University, which is in Ottawa. Eg. From [148] (cited on the page): "In the 1990s, [Alana], then a student at Carleton University in Ottawa, Ontario, created an all-text website she called "Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project.""
Updated sentence (CHANGE TO): "The first website to use the term "incel" was "Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project", founded in 1997 by a student at Carleton University in Ottawa, and known only by her first name, Alana, to discuss her sexual inactivity with others ..." TPana ( talk) 17:20, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
She was living in Toronto, Canada, and started the website, Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project, for those who were struggling to form loving relationships.. I feel that mentioning what university she was attending is a little too much detail, personally, but YMMV. Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 18:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Often white" is false and has no actual reliable source or stats that show this, the only source listed says basically the opposite + its based on the stereotype white = bad oppressors, which is literally racism Avistemp ( talk) 12:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Just look at it this way: what if you went to an article on violent crime and said that violent criminals in America are “often black”? Hmmm? Alexandermoir ( talk) 23:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
[1] https://pt.icct.nl/sites/default/files/2024-03/Research%20article%20template%202024_Kelly_0.pdf or [2] https://researchportal.port.ac.uk/en/publications/victim-violent-vulnerable-a-feminist-response-to-the-incel-radica
"Victim, Violent, Vulnerable: A Feminist Response to the Incel Radicalisation Scale"
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Incel article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Frequently asked questions To view an answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: What is the subject of this article?
A1: This article is about a particular misogynistic online subculture of people who self-identify as "involuntary celibates" or "incels" based on their inability to find a romantic or sexual partner. It is not about all people who are unable to find a romantic or sexual partner or all people to whom the phrase "involuntary celibate" could be applied, but only to that subculture. Q2: Why is this article only about the subculture/community of self-identified "incels", and not about the idea of involuntary celibacy more broadly?
A2: It is the subculture which has achieved
notability independent of concepts Wikipedia already covers, such as
sexual frustration,
celibacy, and
sexual abstinence. Although a separate article about the broader concept of involuntary celibacy could be created, such articles have been deleted in the past in favor of coverage in existing articles. Q3: Why is this article so negative?
A3: Articles on Wikipedia reflect the way subjects are covered in
reliable, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The articles cover aspects of those subjects
in accordance with the extent to which those aspects are covered in reliable sources. There are negative elements of the subject in this article because that is the way many of the reliable sources cover it. If coverage of the subject changes, the article should be updated to reflect that. |
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Incel. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Incel at the Reference desk. |
Wikipedia is not censored. Images or details contained within this article may be graphic or otherwise objectionable to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to Wikipedia's content disclaimer regarding potentially objectionable content and options for not seeing an image. |
Incel has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
|
The contents of the Incels.is page were merged into Incel on 19 June 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article has been
mentioned by multiple media organizations:
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Category | Reference ideas for Incel The following sources contain public domain or freely licensed material that may be incorporated into this article:
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
|
|||||||||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present. |
Whoever is writing all of this is extremely prejudiced against autistic people, people with social anxiety, and otherwise socially awkward people. This article is blatantly insulting to innocent people and it has no right to exist on Wikipedia or anywhere. I DEMAND THAT YOU CEASE AND APOLOGIZE!!! 37.0.88.17 ( talk) 13:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
@ JusticeAccount3: Regarding this revert, can you please clarify what in that source supports that that individual "worshipped" Elliot Rodger? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 15:19, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Incel is self-evidently a form of sexual slander, used to attack rather than discuss. It is a sex-based slur, since it is oriented towards men only, and also discriminates on the basis of relationship status. It's core claims about some amorphous unfuckable menace are obviously incorrect on their face, since basic criminology 101 is that violence is highly correlated with reproductive success. It has even been postulated as a reproductive strategy. This is very clearly a politicized term, with zero consensus about that to which it refers, if anything. It is associated with far-left extremist ideology and groups which typically support cross sex hormone use, forced race training, and intensified discrimination in hiring/legal system.
This is a core problem with this sorry excuse for an article. It is an exercise in elaborate contempt for reality and the obvious competency crisis afflicting our institutions.
If you want to contest this specific criticism that this article is itself a form of biased, sexual, political henhouse behavior with no academic value please do more than assert, lazily, that my concerns are too "general." That is extremely specific.
This article is predicated on political lying. It violates Wikipedia's tenets of neutrality. You can't dispute this, so you have to exclude the topic from the debate. 2603:9000:E700:6050:7D54:9757:72A0:AB00 ( talk) 20:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Makes sense Dumuzid. However, WP:RS do indeed assert that 'incel' is used as slander, and unfortuneatly to a "ubiquitous" extent. Often against men who arent in a relationship, but not involved with the sub culture. While most of those WP:RS have been purged from the article, a few remain – see "Incel" has also come to be used as an insult against people who do not necessarily identify with the subculture, but who are perceived to be sexually inexperienced, undesirable, or unpopular
in the Lexicology section.
It may be worth pointing out how "incel" has came to be such as impactful slur. Pior to the creation of this article back in 2018, the few quality WP:RS using the term incel invariably did so with the literal meaning (i.e. synonymous with "unwanted celibacy" , a term scholars are increasing using now incel has became such a pejorative.) As such, pre 2018 use of the word incel in the high tier WP:RS (there were admittedly exceptions in lower tier sources) often involved looking at incels sympathetically. Just as intended when the term was originally coined by Alana.
It was this article that redefined incel to refer to a self identified member of the sub-culture. As has been forensically demonstrated on this talk page, the 2018 sources that were cited in support of the term being used primarily to refer to members of the subculture did not actually contain that usage. But the article still redefined the term that way anyway. Due to Wikipedia's influence and the articles high ranking in search results, the new meaning was swiftly adopted by journalists & academics. This led to the creation of many thousands of WP:RS reflecting the then new useage. Which in turn allowed the development of the long standing sentence in the lede introducing incels as characterized by deep resentment, hatred, hostility, sexual objectification, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex …
If one manages to read that full sentence there are over a dozen dehumanising nouns and other intensifiers that are liable to evoke repulsion against incels. It's arguably the most expansive demonising sentence in the history of humanity.
Such a lede might be more understandable if Incels really were largely comprised of misogynistic alt-righters. But they're not. His Majesty's government has just published findings from the worlds largest & most rigorous study of incels to date. (Which has been widely reported both state side & in UK, hence the recent influx of IP interest) It emphasised incel's "very poor mental health” and the fact that incels are politically centre-Left on average. ( But the "5% who agreed that violence against individuals that cause incels harm is often justified were politically centre-right”)
Getting back on topic , even back in 2020
sources were reporting that incel was used as a ubiquitous online insult
against less romantically successful men. Sadly according to a
2023 finding from Pew Research, almost 70% of US young men are now single (showing that "Incels aren't even a minority group anymore" as
another source put it.) That's an awful lot of young guys in the cross hairs for the ubiquitous insult, which many will internalise with all sorts of adverse consequences. Such as the unprecedented recent finding that
Gen Z males are now more anti feminist than their older peers. And sadly, with so much distress in the male half of the youth population, young women aren't immune to contagion effects. Among young women, indicators of poor mental health, suicidal ideology & actual attempts have
risen sharply since 2019. (Much more sharply than among men, and mostly due to reasons unconnected with incels -cf.
Jean Twenge -, though it is a factor.)
Its not all doom & gloom. The 2023 result found only about 30% of young women were single – far less than less than for young men. The discrepancy is in part due to polygyny. And partly the welcome fact that women who lean that way are now more free to form Lesbian pairings. But a far bigger factor is parings with senior men. At least on a secular & individualist level, the benefits when a heterosexual middle aged man pairs up with a new young women are considerable. There can be a months long surge in testosterone, which among other benefits is anxiolytic & often promotes good sleep. With other pleasure inducing hormones, the overall long term effect is better than is possible with any recreational drug. Nothing lasts forever, but with the competition from young men much reduced thanks to the ubiquitous, confidence destroying "incel" insult, it's easy for a senior man of even moderate desirability to find another interested young women. And once again all is groovy.
Still, as a member of that demographic myself, Im confident that only a minority are selfish enough to welcome the help of Wikipedia here, given the impact on less privileged groups. Accordingly, I suggest re-writing this article from scratch. As per my offer back in 2020, I'm happy to do all the work myself, if that's agreeable? ( Im not though up for is engaging is lengthy talk page discussion as happened back then. After many hours of discussion, consensus for most of my proposed changes to make the article more sympathetic to incels was finally achieved on this talk page. Only for most of the improvements to be reverted a few days later! Despite having rewrote many controversial global scope articles, usually the hundreds of hours of research I put into article improvement result in my work remaining in place even more than a decade later. So I'd like to have a plurality of 3 admins agree to my rewrite proposal, without having to further discuss. ) If that's not possible and admins prefer to address the issues here themselves, I'd respectfully suggest they consider going for greater fidelity to what the quality WP:RSs actually say, and closer adherence to WP:OR and WP:NPOV. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 16:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
members of an online community whose main stated grievance is that they desire to have romantic and sexual relationships but are unable to do so. In fact, it says explicitly that
we use the term unwanted celibacy rather than involuntary celibacy because the latter term is sometimes used to refer specifically to Incels (e.g., Moskalenko et al., 2022), whereas we posit an association between unwanted celibacy and misogyny that applies generally. It's doing the same exact thing this article is doing.
Participants perceived high levels of victimhood, anger and misogyny. They also acknowledged a shared worldview among incels which includes identifying feminists as a primary enemy.
Incels are a sub-culture community of men who forge a sense of identity around their perceived inability to form sexual or romantic relationships.If you're expecting that to support your desire to "reverse the redefinition" or whatever, I don't think that source is going to help. If you want to rewrite this article to be about "unwanted celibacy", you're going to need sources that actually discuss it in those terms. Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 17:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under History, first sentence: "The first website to use the term "incel" was "Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project", founded in 1997 by a university student living in Toronto, and known only by her first name, Alana, to discuss her sexual inactivity with others ..."
Request: REMOVE unfounded claim of studentship in Toronto. Sources do not corroborate this claim.
Further, many sources claim Alana graduated from Carleton University, which is in Ottawa. Eg. From [148] (cited on the page): "In the 1990s, [Alana], then a student at Carleton University in Ottawa, Ontario, created an all-text website she called "Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project.""
Updated sentence (CHANGE TO): "The first website to use the term "incel" was "Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project", founded in 1997 by a student at Carleton University in Ottawa, and known only by her first name, Alana, to discuss her sexual inactivity with others ..." TPana ( talk) 17:20, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
She was living in Toronto, Canada, and started the website, Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project, for those who were struggling to form loving relationships.. I feel that mentioning what university she was attending is a little too much detail, personally, but YMMV. Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 18:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Often white" is false and has no actual reliable source or stats that show this, the only source listed says basically the opposite + its based on the stereotype white = bad oppressors, which is literally racism Avistemp ( talk) 12:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Just look at it this way: what if you went to an article on violent crime and said that violent criminals in America are “often black”? Hmmm? Alexandermoir ( talk) 23:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
[1] https://pt.icct.nl/sites/default/files/2024-03/Research%20article%20template%202024_Kelly_0.pdf or [2] https://researchportal.port.ac.uk/en/publications/victim-violent-vulnerable-a-feminist-response-to-the-incel-radica
"Victim, Violent, Vulnerable: A Feminist Response to the Incel Radicalisation Scale"