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I'm removing the comment "still on trials and workup" regarding the "Shokaku"-class carriers, as it does not belong. This article is specified as "IJN at time of Pearl Harbor Attack in December 1941", but Shokaku commissioned on August 8 and Zuikaku on September 25. Not only that, but both ships participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor, and no navy would send ships on a mission while they were "still on trial". Elsquared ( talk) 03:40, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Can someone please look at linking to or redirecting this orphaned page? Gbawden ( talk) 10:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The article as it stands contains too many statements that are designed to give a positive impression of the Imperial Japanese Navy's strength and quality. Some of them are deceptive, some are simply wrong, and some are irrelevant. I will remove them unless someone objects.
Specifically, I refer to the following:
I will make the suggested changes. I also recommend that Evans & Peattie be purged from this and other articles relating to the Imperial Japanese navy. Pensiveneko ( talk) 00:22, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Hold on your Horses! You simply can not purge reliable sources (e.g Evans & Peattie) which is double backed with Jentschura, just because you have seen an incomplete list of its fleet strength on another wiki webpage WP:CIRC. On top of that, the numbers are correct, considering recent publications:
a) New Vangard: Imperial Japanese Navy Aircraft Carriers 1921-45, 2005 b) New Vangard: Imperial Japanese Navy Submarines 1941-45, 2012 c) New Vangard: Imperial Japanese Navy Destroyers 1919-45, 2013
2) Based on your opinions? It can be sourced among the other: #3,#5 and #6 of your rants.
3) "I will add that the seven American carriers could carry over 100 more aircraft than the ten Japanese carriers could. I will add also that the British carriers had armored decks, unlike the American or Japanese carriers." - Redundant and unnecessary. There's no urgent need for any dick measuring contest. The sentence is well in its nature of WP:NPV and would otherwise only create WP:DUE.
4)"This claim (again attributed to the same book that seems to be the source of these biased statements, the Kaigun by Evans and Peattie) is unverifiable. A statement like this should not be thrown about on the strength of one very inferior source material." - Right, a highly renowned and eminent scholar with doctorate degrees and within more than 50 years of research, have nothing else to say. How dare you to damage their reputation! Get the damn book before spouting such rants.
5) "Another baseless speculation from Kaigun. This needs to be removed." - You clearly seem to have an agenda, as the A6M talks and those citation challenges reveals. The appearance and substantial performance of the Zero came as a distinct shock for the allied forces, that's a fact. It was superior to any fighter at the beginning of the Pacific war, such as: Curtiss P-40s, Hawk 75s, Brewster Buffaloes, Wildcats and Hawker Hurricanes. This held up until more ingenious tactics (e.g. Thach weave) and better equipment were introduced
6) "Again a Kaigun claim that is objectively wrong. The G3M's top speed was 375 km/h and cruising speed 280 km/h. The B-25H Mitchell, a comparable American WW2 bomber, had top speed of 438 km/h and cruising speed of 370 km/h. G3M's range was indeed superior." - Right, it makes absolute sense to compare the B-25H Mitchell which was not introduced before 1943 to the G3M. The full sentence clearly states at the beginning of the war, which is truly legitimate, since nothing at that practicular time could match its range and performance. In early December 1941 however, the IJN has already introduced the G4M to supersede the obsolete G3M from 1935 for their campaign.
7) "How can anyone state with any certainty that Japanese pilots in late 1941 were better than, say, German pilots, who had been fighting an intense air war for 2 years? Little surprise that this ridiculous claim comes from Evans & Peattie's Kaigun. I will delete this claim." - Another failing and moot point, it should be clear that the experiences made in the second Sino-Japanese War from 1937 onwards was meant. Pointing to the Germans is simply ridiculous, as it doesn't state that what you're trying to imply.
If you want to improve the article, I urgently recommend you, to reviewing the cited sources, before making any hasty conclusions. A such tremendous intrusion to the article requires a wide consens. Using other wiki pages to source your opinion, doesn't make them right. Damaging the reputation of renowned scholars and their serious publication could yield you to serious troubles. LikePancakes ( talk) 13:36, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Let me first mention that I stated that I "will" delete certain items after a period of non-response because I wasn't sure that this article was being observed or being taken care of. Now that I know that it is, I will not take any unilateral actions. I will get to the other points later, but I will address a couple right now. First, from Pancakes. He stated, in his response to my objections about Japan's particular emphasis on carriers, that it is a redundant and unnecessary dick-measuring contest to show that the US navy's carrier fleet, while nominally fewer in number, were in fact stronger as a whole than the IJN's carrier fleet. I agree that an encyclopedia article should not engage in a 'dick-measuring contest.' However the article as it stands is already full of instances of that. It states that the Shokaku-class was the finest carriers in the world, that Japanese pilots were the best, that the Zero was the best naval fighter, and G3M was the best bomber. There is absolutely no need for these claims to be made. They do not inform, as these claims are not only unverifiable but counterfactual to the history in which Japanese carriers, pilots, fighters, and bombers collectively suffered repeated and often humiliating defeats.
Two, the only "proof" offered to support the notion that Japan put a particular emphasis on aircraft carriers is the number of 'carriers'. Historical fact does not appear to bear this out, or, at the very least, it is not the most obvious conclusion you can draw from the fact that, post-Washington Naval Treaty and pre-Pearl, RN had 5 carriers being built and the USN had 3 building and 12 more ordered. These programs dwarf the Japanese emphasis on carriers, especially when you consider that the British and American carriers were simply more capable. Unless there is a more definite proof, or rather, unless there is in fact any proof that Japan put more emphasis on aircraft carriers than the USN and RN did, the sentence should be deleted.
As to: "And it is perfectly possible to know, then as now: professionals know how to assess quality (even if you don't)." This is frankly such a stupid idea that I am hesitant to accord it the dignity of a response. I will merely say that "professionals just know" is not enough, and that any section in the article supported by "professionals know" should be deleted.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Imperial Japanese Navy in World War II article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm removing the comment "still on trials and workup" regarding the "Shokaku"-class carriers, as it does not belong. This article is specified as "IJN at time of Pearl Harbor Attack in December 1941", but Shokaku commissioned on August 8 and Zuikaku on September 25. Not only that, but both ships participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor, and no navy would send ships on a mission while they were "still on trial". Elsquared ( talk) 03:40, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Can someone please look at linking to or redirecting this orphaned page? Gbawden ( talk) 10:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The article as it stands contains too many statements that are designed to give a positive impression of the Imperial Japanese Navy's strength and quality. Some of them are deceptive, some are simply wrong, and some are irrelevant. I will remove them unless someone objects.
Specifically, I refer to the following:
I will make the suggested changes. I also recommend that Evans & Peattie be purged from this and other articles relating to the Imperial Japanese navy. Pensiveneko ( talk) 00:22, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Hold on your Horses! You simply can not purge reliable sources (e.g Evans & Peattie) which is double backed with Jentschura, just because you have seen an incomplete list of its fleet strength on another wiki webpage WP:CIRC. On top of that, the numbers are correct, considering recent publications:
a) New Vangard: Imperial Japanese Navy Aircraft Carriers 1921-45, 2005 b) New Vangard: Imperial Japanese Navy Submarines 1941-45, 2012 c) New Vangard: Imperial Japanese Navy Destroyers 1919-45, 2013
2) Based on your opinions? It can be sourced among the other: #3,#5 and #6 of your rants.
3) "I will add that the seven American carriers could carry over 100 more aircraft than the ten Japanese carriers could. I will add also that the British carriers had armored decks, unlike the American or Japanese carriers." - Redundant and unnecessary. There's no urgent need for any dick measuring contest. The sentence is well in its nature of WP:NPV and would otherwise only create WP:DUE.
4)"This claim (again attributed to the same book that seems to be the source of these biased statements, the Kaigun by Evans and Peattie) is unverifiable. A statement like this should not be thrown about on the strength of one very inferior source material." - Right, a highly renowned and eminent scholar with doctorate degrees and within more than 50 years of research, have nothing else to say. How dare you to damage their reputation! Get the damn book before spouting such rants.
5) "Another baseless speculation from Kaigun. This needs to be removed." - You clearly seem to have an agenda, as the A6M talks and those citation challenges reveals. The appearance and substantial performance of the Zero came as a distinct shock for the allied forces, that's a fact. It was superior to any fighter at the beginning of the Pacific war, such as: Curtiss P-40s, Hawk 75s, Brewster Buffaloes, Wildcats and Hawker Hurricanes. This held up until more ingenious tactics (e.g. Thach weave) and better equipment were introduced
6) "Again a Kaigun claim that is objectively wrong. The G3M's top speed was 375 km/h and cruising speed 280 km/h. The B-25H Mitchell, a comparable American WW2 bomber, had top speed of 438 km/h and cruising speed of 370 km/h. G3M's range was indeed superior." - Right, it makes absolute sense to compare the B-25H Mitchell which was not introduced before 1943 to the G3M. The full sentence clearly states at the beginning of the war, which is truly legitimate, since nothing at that practicular time could match its range and performance. In early December 1941 however, the IJN has already introduced the G4M to supersede the obsolete G3M from 1935 for their campaign.
7) "How can anyone state with any certainty that Japanese pilots in late 1941 were better than, say, German pilots, who had been fighting an intense air war for 2 years? Little surprise that this ridiculous claim comes from Evans & Peattie's Kaigun. I will delete this claim." - Another failing and moot point, it should be clear that the experiences made in the second Sino-Japanese War from 1937 onwards was meant. Pointing to the Germans is simply ridiculous, as it doesn't state that what you're trying to imply.
If you want to improve the article, I urgently recommend you, to reviewing the cited sources, before making any hasty conclusions. A such tremendous intrusion to the article requires a wide consens. Using other wiki pages to source your opinion, doesn't make them right. Damaging the reputation of renowned scholars and their serious publication could yield you to serious troubles. LikePancakes ( talk) 13:36, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Let me first mention that I stated that I "will" delete certain items after a period of non-response because I wasn't sure that this article was being observed or being taken care of. Now that I know that it is, I will not take any unilateral actions. I will get to the other points later, but I will address a couple right now. First, from Pancakes. He stated, in his response to my objections about Japan's particular emphasis on carriers, that it is a redundant and unnecessary dick-measuring contest to show that the US navy's carrier fleet, while nominally fewer in number, were in fact stronger as a whole than the IJN's carrier fleet. I agree that an encyclopedia article should not engage in a 'dick-measuring contest.' However the article as it stands is already full of instances of that. It states that the Shokaku-class was the finest carriers in the world, that Japanese pilots were the best, that the Zero was the best naval fighter, and G3M was the best bomber. There is absolutely no need for these claims to be made. They do not inform, as these claims are not only unverifiable but counterfactual to the history in which Japanese carriers, pilots, fighters, and bombers collectively suffered repeated and often humiliating defeats.
Two, the only "proof" offered to support the notion that Japan put a particular emphasis on aircraft carriers is the number of 'carriers'. Historical fact does not appear to bear this out, or, at the very least, it is not the most obvious conclusion you can draw from the fact that, post-Washington Naval Treaty and pre-Pearl, RN had 5 carriers being built and the USN had 3 building and 12 more ordered. These programs dwarf the Japanese emphasis on carriers, especially when you consider that the British and American carriers were simply more capable. Unless there is a more definite proof, or rather, unless there is in fact any proof that Japan put more emphasis on aircraft carriers than the USN and RN did, the sentence should be deleted.
As to: "And it is perfectly possible to know, then as now: professionals know how to assess quality (even if you don't)." This is frankly such a stupid idea that I am hesitant to accord it the dignity of a response. I will merely say that "professionals just know" is not enough, and that any section in the article supported by "professionals know" should be deleted.