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I am sure the numbers added are very disputable; the Magyars outside "the Basin" are missing; what exactly is the "Basin"; why should the percentage in "the Basin" be decisive etc etc. If you really feel that this paragraph must be added, then cite the source at least... Juro 01:02, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Not quite.
(2005.09.10) Again, cite your source (I am quite sure you have used some nationalist text) because these are quite important numbers, secondly taking the 1910 census as a basis is wrong (the number of Magyars was highly overstated), thirdly there are Magyars outside the "Basin" now, fourthly I still did not see the exact definition of "the Basin" (just the plain or what?), fifthly the neighbouring countries are not the cause of the high suicide rate and low birth rate in the country Hungary which is the main factor in this "problem", sixtly - ignoring what I have said above - if you are going to compare who "doubled/tripled" (numbers that always depend on what you take as a basis) then you should also show who tripled/doubled etc. before 1910 according to official Hungarian numbers in a clearly defined country called Kingdom of Hungary without any wars, border changes or other special circumstances (as compared to WWI etc.)...If I hadn't more important things to do now, I would look at those figures myself, maybe I will do that one day... Juro 16:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
(2005.09.11)
(2005.09.14)
According to this I claim that 10.065 million Magyars and 10.093 million Romanians lived in Central Europe in the early XX. century. These numbers rose to 22.045 million Romanians and 13.239 million Magyars until 1977-1980!
(1) And what about the remaining numbers?
(2) You must have a "normal" source, like a book, study, statistical tables...(I understand Hungarian, if that's the problem...)
(3) And, as you can see you used the expression "Central Europe", so it's not the "Basin" anymore??? Juro 11:20, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
(2005.09.16) You've right. The original research is prohibited, but the calculation is not. OK, I accept mabe I'm wrong in some exact numbers. The Magyars number was not 10.065, but 10.199 million, in 1910. Therefore I've used 10-11 million instead. Similarly You have the choice to make your own research and if you find completelty different numbers please inform us.
And that two link I gave you is nothing else than a digitized form of a recently published book in Hungary about nations in Central(Köztes) Europe between 175X - 1980(?). Given an overall picture about what Hungarian historians think about recent past of the region.
The "Basin" question: if you make a comparasion between Romanians and Magyars it is negligable wheter Croatia/Slovenia/Burgenland is included into the Basin or not. Romanians percentage compared to Magyars percentage will not change ... somewhat decrease from 54% respectivelly 15% to 54-c and 15-c-- fz22 07:01, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
The number of Hungarians in Israel has been changed to 10,000. This is because there are only 10,000 ethnic hungarians in Israel. However there are around 250,000 jews of hungarian origin, but they are ethnically jewish, not hungarian. This article is trying to find out how many "ethnic hungarians" live world wide. Also in Australia, 62,000 people identified themselves as hungarian in the 2001 census.
It was me who added the mention to depression. Naturally, no link can be established between the various historical events and the depression among Magyars, but my original formulation was "[...] all contributed to a general feeling of depression" (emphasis added). I don't think this is so wild a speculation, though it can probably be fine-tuned. That the percentage of depressed people is unusually high among Magyars, in turn, is pretty much of an established fact; I can't cite anything off the top of my head, but I remember having seen studies showing this, of which the high number of suicides is but a well-measurable effect. I suppose that this has more to do with the people in Hungary than with Magyars in general, but as to the demographic consequences, the two are more and more correlated. Which brings me to the point of mentioning this at all: it was not to say that the number of Magyars is anyhow "too low", but simply to provide some context for the demographic estimate of 2050, a quite low but still correct one for a group today numbering over 11 million. It is, of course, more of a speculation that the low number of births is (at least partly) due to depression, though I wouldn't be surprised to see that someone has already established that link.
As for Magyarisation, I still maintain that the words I removed are superfluous and have no other effect than being less concise, but I can live with the current version (with "largely" added, so "solely" not implied).
Kiss L 09:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I can only repeat that you cannot be serious if you think that Trianon or WWII has something to do with the current and future demographic development (until 2050?????!) in Hungary...It could have had (but it had not, of course) something to do with the general demographic development in the interwar period and in the 50s/60s, but the demographice development started just AFTER these periods (the population of Hungary started to decrease only around 1980 and decreased by more than 1 million (!!) persons until 2003)...How can you even contemplate such totally illogical things in obvious contradiction with reality??? If we start to write such non-sense here then you can really write anything that comes to your mind, that will yield the same in the end... Juro 02:32, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
You're not getting my point. I'm not contemplating a direct connection between Trianon and the demographic development. What I am assuming is that Trianon is one of the reasons behind depression, and that depression is one of the reasons behind the demographic development in Hungary. Both assumptions are common sense. I didn't force any direct connection between Trianon and demographics into the article.
And as for when that development started - there has been an absolutely constant decrease in the number of children per possible parents since before WWII. In particular, the population decrease that started in the 1980s had been on schedule for at least two decades, because already in the 1960s the fertility rate dropped low enough so that there were less children than possible parents despite the so-called "Ratkó era", which (precisely in the 1960s when this trend first alarmed the political elite) saw numerous efforts to increase the willingness of the population to have children, and did in fact produce an outstanding (but still insufficient) "wave" of childbirth for a few years.
There is more to demographics than increase or decrease in a population - there are lots of dependencies on age structure, because death rates are more or less determined by the number of aged people, while birth rates are determined by both the number of reproductive women and a set of socioeconomical constraints. So to state that the current development started around 1980 would be a huge mistake.
In view of this, what are the "totally illogical" things I am contemplating "in obvious contradiction with reality?"
Kiss L 09:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
These are well-known things, the problem is I am not criticising the statement that someone was allegedly depressed, I am criticising the whole part of the text, which MAKES the above connection. And I repeat this for the 5th time already that the text
exactly what I am saying above (meaning it is still illogical), because even if we assumed that there was a demographic change IN HUNGARY say right at the time of Trianon or right in 1945, it then still continues and intesifies and is similar to developments in other countries, which itself shows that it has nothing to do with Trianon etc. and every demographer knows it. Finally, actually I am not interested in what you or anybody personally thinks, wanted to write (but did not) or things like that, I am only interested in having a text here that at least does not contain lies (wanted or not) -given that the article is far from ideal anyway- and that's what I am talking about here all the time. But Zello said above he would write a more precise text, so let'see (hopefully)... Ah yes, I mentioned the above decrease only to show what a difference it is whether one looks at numbers say of 1910-1970 or at numbers of 1910-2003 - and what is the (huge) difference, i.e. the "problem"? Answer: The internal development in Hungary. But what does the text imply? The problem of the TOTAL number of Magyars in an undefined "Basin" (including Hungary) lies abroad and in WWI and WWII. This is what the text says now, I do not know how to explain it in simpler terms. Juro 20:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I wrote the new section about demographics. All of my data came from Ignác Romsics's new book (History of Hungary in the 20th century). Sorry KissL but I deleted the expression "depression". However I think the last paragraph (from Fz222) needs a little upgrading (datas etc) in any case and there you can find a place for this thought. Zello 00:02, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Where are the new numbers from? I don't think that Romsics made mistakes in such an important question... Zello 09:17, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I reverted the sentence because of two reasons:
I do not agree with you (see above /Last changes/) The population of Hungary was 7.9 out of which 7.1 million were Magyars in 1910 (the article is about Magyars not Germans, Jewish, Romas etc) 'til 1941 this number rose to ~8,500,000 in Hungary plus 2.5 - 3,000,000 million in neighbouring countries and to 10,500,000 in Hungary + 2,500,000 million in n.c. in 1980.-- fz22 07:35, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it is not good idea to exclude nationalities from population estimates because they were part of the Hungarian nation. But yes, in this sense you are right, I looked up the numbers in the Romsics book:
We should decide wether we use these numbers or we speak about the total population of Hungary. Kissl, Juro?
1100 year old Magyar people almost doesn't exist in genetical terms. You won't find anybody in the country whose all ancestor came here with Árpád. Magyars absorbed an immense number of other peoples in their history, and Jews were one of them. As I said before 1944 they were counted as Magyars in every census... But I won't fight for this question, this topic is too heated now.
It makes no sense to speak Magyars as a whole after Trianon. Of course this is one nation, but the demographic process were not the same in Hungary and in the neighbouring countries.
Zello
12:28, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
OK. I can only say that I largely agree with Zello. The current version is quite in order, provided the numbers are correct (I wished I had the time and mood to check them...). Maybe it would be really helpful to also point out the development of other nationalities in Hungary to show that these numbers are tied to Hungary as a country, but on the other hand this article is called "Magyars", so I don't know... Juro 22:09, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand this new sentence from the anonymous contributor. What's this? Zello 15:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I deleted these chart with obviously incorrect data: there isn't any country like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia today, there isn't 200 000 Magyars in Russia (probably it was a mistake for Ukraine) and I think it's not a good idea to make such estimations about Magyars in the US or Canada where assimilation is very fast. Zello 08:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not kidding, you must update your chart because it's out of date and incorrect. Zello 20:43, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Good job on updating my estimates. I had my total estimation pretty close though. Anyway, do you like the image or would you want me to make a new one? ..
For me it's OK. But if you make longer contributions, register a user name because man sees anonymous editors with mistrust. Zello 19:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
It is a debated issue, but to give a complete picture I think it is worth adding Alinei and Krantz, since their work is peer-reviewed scholarly work, and it is not likely that they have a pro-Hungarian nationalist bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.27.161.101 ( talk • contribs) 16:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC).
There is a page about Hungarian prehistory where you should mention this kind of speculations. But THIS page about the Magyars contains only facts and widely accepted scientific theories. Zello 21:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Facts in history? Sorry, but in that subject everything is more or less speculation, in particular if it happened thousand or thousands of years ago. The problem with the Hungarian Pre-History page is that it seems to be the page of a single person's opinion, moreover it includes non peer-reviewed and unscientific speculation. Thus Alinei and Krantz do not belong there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.27.161.101 ( talk • contribs) 10:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC).
To 129.27.161.101 - Read WP:NOR and you'll see that this doesn't belong here. Besides, think about all the non-experts who will click on a link saying Hungarian somewhere. This sure is not the kind of info they will want to know. (BTW you can, and should, sign your posts using four tildes, like this: ~~~~.) Kiss L 10:21, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to develop Hungarian prehistory page a place where every "alternative" theory about the origin of the Magyars is collected and reviewed. Of course everything about the ancient period is more or less speculation but here it's better to stick to the "official" thesis. Zello 11:05, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Dear KissL
Forgive my harsh judgment, but I think your reasoning is somewhat flawed. The work of Krantz and Alinei are not original research in the sense it is described in WP:NOR. Alinei is an established linguist whose celebrated continuity theory is considered fundamental. The late Krantz was an established anthropologist, who was considered an expert on human evolution, and while his "bigfoot" material received much media attention (due to its sensational nature), his expertise in his own field was never questioned, not to mention that even in the bigfoot case (not entirely his field) he was never disproven. Furthermore the article gives space to the Sumerian theory (which sounds like it may be original research) without citation, whereas I have given Krantz's book and Alinei's as the citation. The non-experts should be aware that there is a debate, and I think as long as it is only mentioned but the main emphasis is not placed on them it is not in any way misleading. More misleading is to place Sumerian and other theories without citation, dismiss them also without citation and exclude the theories (even if somewhat marginal) which were proposed by respected experts in various fields. Your claim about redundance is somewhat questionable as well...
It is also notable the Alinei is often referred to by Slavic historians since his continuity theory refutes the notion of Slavic presence in Europe only agter the 6th century. While Alinei is not cited on the page describing Slavic peoples it appears that it is his theories that are presented there, so there is really no reason to exclude them from here either. But I guess the idea is that Slavs are OK, Magyars should be excluded whenever possible. It would be great if Eastern Europe grew up!
Thank you for the suggestion regarding the signature. I do not have an account yet...
Dear Zello,
There is a problem with alternative theories mixed with alternative theories. While I do not want to exclude work not necessarily ratified by the experts, but there may be reasons for not grouping together something like Alinei or Krantz with the work of fringe nationalists.
Februus
129.27.161.101
11:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
For me both theories seems to be wild enough and none of them is new. Etruscan-Hungarian relationship was a popular idea in the 2 half of the 19 century. There are a lot of authors who propagates that Magyars inhabited the Carpathian Basin even in the Stone Age. It's interesting that there are non-Hungarian followers of this speculation but this is simply out of the normal scholarly discussion. Zello 14:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
The two theories are somewhat "wild". But the funny thing is in the article some "wild" theories are mentioned, without citation and discredited without citation. Balazs 21:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
The article is about the Magyars and not about the origin of the Magyars. I don't think we should discuss alternative theories in this article. But for me it is OK to mention Etruscans and Stone Age-inhabitants together with the others in the list. Zello 21:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the version of Codex Sinaiticus is reflecting the old thesis of public law about the Kingdom of Hungary. According to that the KoH was an independent state even under the Habsburg rule wich was only a personal but not a real union. Of course the sphere of authority of the King was very large so de facto it was a real union but not de jure. This thesis was a bit corrupted by the Pragmatica Sanctio, strengthened in 1792, and even more corrupted by the Ausgleich but was never gave up by the prominent statesmen of Hungary (including Deák) and the Hungarian Parliament. So after 1920 nothing happened but the King has lost his rights, the country became totally independent again, and - of course - two-thirds of its territory was lost. Zello 03:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I know, this is an interesting topic. The main point here is that this is an article about Magyars (not about the Kingdom of Hungary), where such things are out of place, and Codex S.' version was simply misleading in that it seemed to imply that the Kingdom of Hungary somehow completely ceased to exist in 1526/1700/1867 (?), which is not the case. It is quite normal to speak of a Kingdom of Hungary up to 1918 both at that time and in present history texts and it is completely common in the history of other countries to keep the designation XY kingdom even when there are personal and other unions. And what happened after 1920 was not part of the edit, as I have understood it. Juro 04:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes you are absolutely right, I think all three of us speaks about the same :) As I understood, the expression of "came back into being" applies to the INDEPENDENT KoH, not the KoH in all. But you are right it is really misleading a bit Zello 13:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I found this image in the Varangians article. Maybe somebody could help the writers of that article and tell them exactly where Magyars should be in the map. It would be interesting to clarify the connections between Magyars and Varangians (Vikings) anyway, because they were neighbours for a certain period of time. -- KIDB 14:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
the mazar languane were used: avaria, khazaria, sarmatia.
I know that "Magyar" is the native form, while "Hungarian" is an exonym, but in English "Hungarian" is much more used:
Google search: (excluding wikipedia hits)
Google books:
Our Wikipedia policy is to put the page in the most commonly used English name, which would be in this case "Hungarians". Any thoughts about this? bogdan 14:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh my..., first, you should NEVER use google tests, secondly , Hungarian means "referring to Hungary" or to "Magyars", while Magyars only means referring to "Magyars". And this is a text about Magyars. Juro 17:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Juro, if I change "Magyars" to "Hungarians" in the search that you just linked and it gave almost 3 times as many hits: 38600 vs. 13500.
I'm a Hungarian living in an English speaking country BTW. :)
I strongly support Bogdan's suggestion. -- nyenyec ☎ 19:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
You have not read what I have written above. Once again: Point ione: EXPERT texts use Magyar, Point two: How do you know that Hungarians always refers to ethnicity?...But do what you want, I see any expertise is useless here. Juro 19:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
BTW this has nothing to do with whether you are Hungarian or not, but with whether you have ever read an expert text on this topic. No true expert would ever use Hungarian, because it is ambiguous. Juro 19:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I recently purchased a book called "The Hungarians: A Thousand Years of Victory in Defeat". Would this qualify as an "expert text"? I support Bogdan's suggestion too. If an American were to go to a library and want information about Magyars they would look under "H" for Hungarians. No non-expert would ever think to look up "Magyar". An encyclopedia is supposed to serve non-experts, no? But at the same time, it seems silly to be arguing semantics. Wouldn't it be good enough to simply have a redirect? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 21:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
In our context, expert text means a text dealing with ethnic groups (just like this one). The title you are citing clearly has other objectives (as its wording shows). Actually, I should find some quotes now, but since I see it is useless in the long run, I won't. I have described the reasons. Google wins :) Let's hope, nuclear power plants do not start to explode one day, because the operators start to behave according to what google says :)). Juro 00:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Just to be clear on this issue, the term "Hungarian" means "anybody living in Hungary." Especially before 1918, there were many, many, many Hungarians who were not Magyars - more than half the population of Hungary, in fact. These included Germans, Jews (although some Jews and Germans had, during the 19th century, begun identifying themselves as Magyars), Slovaks, Croats, Ruthenes, Romanians, and Serbs. The issue has been somewhat obscured by the fact that present-day Hungary is fairly uniformly Magyar in ethnicity (although, should we describe Magyars in Romania as Hungarian?). But it is still a significant enough reason to keep this article at Magyars. john k 01:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
It seems that...
Britannica uses both:
Encarta uses Magyars:
-- nyenyec ☎ 17:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Are there really 10,000 Magyars in Israel? If Magyar is to be read as an ethnic group, shouldn't it exclude Hungarian Jews, who were ethnically distinct? I know that many Hungarian Jews in the late 19th century assimilated and came to identify themselves as Magyars, but it's hard to see as those that subsequently left Hungary and settled in Israel would still so consider themselves. Or is there a large community of non-Jewish Magyars in Israel? john k 02:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Have a look at www.ethnologue.com[ [3]]. According to this source, there are some 70.000 people in Israel speaking Hungarian. This may be an exaggerated number, but I can imagine there are 10.000 people in Israel considering themselves Hungarian (Magyar). -- KIDB 13:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Some of them consider, some of them not; obviously. Gubbubu 17:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
What is this nonesense, I am an Israeli of half "hungarian" jewish origin, I don't think "hungarian" jews here consider themselves or really are genetically Hungarians/Magyars.. they/we are just Jewish of that region just like other Jewish people of other regions. User:Yaron Livne 03:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I created an independent article for Hungarian animals and gave only a link here. The topic is interesting of course but it is really weird to read about animals here where we speak generally about Hungarian people. And not only weird, indeed it is insulting (even I know this wasn't your intention!). Simply: I'm not an animal :) Zello 15:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
The Finno-Ugric languages are a very well-attested group of languages, as is the classification of Hungarian as of the Ugric subgroup of that family. Why does the article address this so tentavely as if it were controversial? Among linguists it is not controversial at all; no more contraversial than the fact that French is descended from Latin.-- Rob117 04:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I think theory is a neutral word - there were a lot of linguistic debates in the 19-20th centuries about the origin of the Magyars and the Finno-Ugric theory was the most convincing among then. Even though the topic remained very controversial not like the origin of French, and the article shows this. Zello 07:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think (too) that the classification of hungarian language would be well-attested. the word "Theory" is applicable and neutral. Among linguists the origin of hungarians and related theories (e.g. the Theory of Finno-Ugric Ancient Home) is more than disputed (this theory, for example, disputed even among finno-ugrist linguists). Gubbubu
One must also consider that just because a people speak a language, it doesn;t mean that they are that ethnicity. Ie the majority of today;s Hungarian's are probably descendents from slavs , dacians and , less so, Bulgars that lived in Pannonia. The Magyar language was imposed by the Magyars who were probably a numerically inferior ruling core. Hxseek 123.243.240.160 12:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I didn`t imply anything, I gaved sources... what else do you want? Greier 14:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Daco-Romanian theory is very much a question of controversy not only between Romanian and Hungarian historians but among the international scientific community. There are wikipedia articles where you can follow the arguments and counterarguments of both side. The reader should look up the Origin of Romanians article which quite a good one and even contains your sources! The version I proposed doesn't claim that Daco-Romanian theory is false. If something is controversial than wikipedia mentions controversiality as a rule of NPOV. Zello 15:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Your sources are controversial. See wikipedia about Gesta Hungarorum. As you certainly know opponents of Daco-Romanian continuity deny the existence of Romanized people in the Carpathian Basin after the 6. century until the arrival of Romanians in the 12. century. Any claim that Romanized people lived there between this dates is the Daco-Romanian theory itself. It's a basic rule of NPOV that you can't present controversial things as generally accepted facts. Zello 01:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Something I don`t agree with: and especially the various nations (Germans, Slovaks, Romanians, Serbs, Croats and others), invited to resettle the depopulated territories after the departure of the Turks in the 18th century. First of all, there wasn`t ever such a "invitation", and secondly, the romanian element in the creation on modern hungarian nation spead for centuries, from the 11th century, well into the 21th (I say 21th because in Trasylvania there are still hungarian speaking people, with hungarian names, but with orthodox confesion, and calling themselves romanians. Most probably, decades from now they will be "hungarians". In the article I put 18th century, to prevent any controversies). It is a way too complex event (e.g.: the self-magyarisation of romanians to beneficiate (enjoy) better privileges, forced magyarisation, etc) to be mentioned in the article (plus that there already a link to magyarisation, where such things could be better expressed).
Anyway, I see no reason for you to keep editing the article, except to present vague and/or subjective info. For that, I ask that maybe there`s someone in charge here to settle this thig out, and explain what`s wrong with my edits (if there is something wrong with them...) Greier 18:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
1, About Daco-Romanian controversy: if you are able to stick to this version I think it OK and NPOV. But not necessary to mention one-by-one the sources. If the reader is interested in the topic there is the link to the article.
2, You are right that Romanians and Hungarians lived together since the Middle Ages so they mixed up with each other not only in the 18th century but all the time. The same is true for Slovaks so the sentence certainly needs rephrasing. Your present version is unacceptable because it implies that Hungarian minority in Transylvania are only Magyarized Romanians. Co-existing and blending was very much two way street and the ethnic proportions of Transylvania are again a very controversial topic. Zello 19:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
3, If you think that you are not able cooperate with me than you should request the community for comment about the article/my person (RfC). Look up the Tutorial about how these things work! Zello 19:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
At the Hungarian conquest, the Hungarian nation numbered between 250,000 and 450,000 people. Any reliable sources for these numbers? Greier 18:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
A very official source: http://www.magyarorszag.hu/angol/orszaginfo/tortenelem/tortenelem - about 500 000 Zello 23:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Are you serious? It`s very "official" and really scientific... Greier 17:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The official homepage of the Hungarian Government. Historical section written by László Kontler, Professor of History in the University of Budapest. Zello 17:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
László Kontler is a well known right wing nationalist and the Faculty of History at the University of Budapest is the place where graduated abb. 1/4 of the leadership members of the far right extremists groups in Hungary. The source is of course official, but nevertheless racist and nationalistic ! Not a serious historian outside Hungary would agree with estimations above 75.000 regarding the size of the Hungarian tribes at the time of the conquest (9th century AD) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 ( talk) 05:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
"Cumanians, Pechenegs, Jazones, Germans and other Western-European settlers" "Turks" etc.. Tatars and Russians not even mentioned.
Yes, you are absolutely right. Only we don't have any data... Zello 14:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Conclusion: "Due to all these influences Magyars became genetically more or less similar to the inhabitants of the states neighbouring Hungary."
This doensn't sound too scientific to me. If we are talking about genetic similarities, we should be using results from scientific research. --
KIDB
12:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
There was a debate about the question on Hungarian prehistory talkpage in the recent past. There a guy brought datas of some scientific research to prove his claim. I have serious doubts but I'm not an expert in genetics. Here I only tried to take the edge of the original - certainly exaggerated - sentence until somebody do some research. Zello 12:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this needed? Sounds funny. You know, there's a trend to nationalize ethnic hungarians in the surrounding countries of nowadays Hungary, by creating false sources and/or simply declare him/her as an ethnic local despite the facts - this sentence seems as a semi-nationalization of all the hungarian people. Really funny, altough it is true, but you know, then we could write this to any ethnic groups because mixed relations (forced or not) happened everywhere. The surrounding people became gnetically more or less similar to their neighbours, and they to their neighbours etc. etc. also. -- VinceB 20:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, this happened everywhere and certainly other peoples should write about their genetical history also. If they don't write that's not our problem. The section contains a lot of info and you said yourself that they are true. Zello 02:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Wasn't there a genetic study done on a number of Hungarian groups a while back, which included the Paloc, Csangos, the Budapest population among others, and which compared them to a number of groups-Turks, Finns, Slavs, Germans, Iranians?
KVLG (
talk)
06:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't think that is a good category. To say that there is an "Ugric People" is to reiterate an outdated and false assumption regarding a connection between linguistics and ethnicity. You know, the one that commonly gets repeated by anti-Finno-Ugricists who pretend that proponents of the Finno-Ugric theory are arguing for a common people when it is only and ever will be a linguistic theory. Its like calling Americans a Germanic people because the language, English, is classified as Germanic. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 14:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Probably a better category name would be something like "Ugric-speaking peoples". I have the same disagreement with the "Finnic peoples" category too. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this research only proves that blood types don't show anything about the origin of peoples. There was certaninly no mixing between Serbs and Spaniards or between Magyars and Greeks. I propose to delete - not because I'm against the claim that Magyars and neighbouring peoples are genetically similar but because this research didn't prove this. Zello 10:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Apparently, this issue has been extensively debated at [6] so I guess you might want to check the discussion and the research cited there.
The article states that there are around 9.5 million Magyars in Hungary and cites the 2001 census as a source. In the table a precise figure of 9,416,015 is given. However, this figure is actually the number of Hungarian citizens (resident in Hungary at the time of the census) who described themselves as Magyar in the census. A further 546,315 "did not wish to answer". Almost certainly some of the latter are also Magyar. Further complicating the picture is the (estimated) several hundred thousand Roma in Hungary some of whom may have described themselves as Magyar, others as Roma, and others refused to answer. My point is that the precise figure cited in the table cannot be deduced from the census data. Other sources giving estimates of the Magyar population should be used.
The table claims that "more than half of Hungarians are Roman Catholic". This claim is unsourced and confusing (because it refers to Hungarians rather than Magyars. I would strongly contest this figure. I believe it is taken from census data for Hungary. Thus it refers to Hungarian citizens and not ethnic Hungarians (ie Magyars). In other words, it includes the Roma minority (which is more strongly Roman Catholic than the Magyar majority). In any case self-indentification as Roman Catholic in a census is not the same as being a practising (or even a lapsed) Roman Catholic. Unless someone can provide a verifiable source for the data, I will remove the percentages. Scott Moore 14:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please don't remove the data. You are right that many of these people are not practising the religion regularly but these are the official census data, based on people's self-identification, and there is no better way to establish their number until the next census will use another method (probably). You can see that the strong majority of Romas identified him/herself as Magyars in the census - there are complicated reasons of this, but - again - better stick to the census data than delete everything or made uncertain calculations. Zello 15:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking, if the opening paragraph in this article says, "In English they are more often called Hungarians", shouldn't this page be moved to Hungarian people? I know the term "Hungarian" in English had a wider meaning, but not anymore. I doubt you'd find many ethnic Romanians who call themselves Hungarians. All inhabitants of the Persian Empire were historically called "Persians", but today that's only the name for ethnic Persians, which account 51% of Iran's population. What do other people think? — Khoikhoi 03:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
A similar point has been discussed already, see Magyars vs. Hungarians above. K issL 14:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
In the previous discussion I tried to explain that for an English-speaker (or at least an American), there is no ambiguity in what Hungarian means. My Magyar relatives never say they are Magyar in English nor do my Slovak relatives (who came from Miskolc) say they are Hungarian in English. Nor will a schoolchild know to look up Magyar for Hungarian ethnic group. Khoikhoi points out that semantics can and do shift. Educate about the semantic shift in the articles, not the titles. I wonder, is Magyar used in other language Wikipedias where the language uses the "Hungar/Ongr" name? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 18:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
We can re-visit it. A vote would maybe attract more opinions and thus give us a clearer view. I personally think that the current title doesn't hurt much – those schoolchildren looking for the Hungarians will end up here in no time –, but Hungarian people or Hungarians would be a better title. I'm not convinced by Juro's assertion that expert texts use the name Magyars, because his opinion may well be biased by the fact that in Slovak, this semantic shift hasn't gone nearly as far as in English. K issL 10:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
See e.g. the links presented in the old discussion and the old discussion, it is even used in non-expert texts. And I repeat for the nth time, this has nothing to do with Slovak. Juro 10:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to Hungarian people. Kirill Lokshin 11:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright then, since there seems to still be enough support for me to do this, here goes:
Magyars → Hungarian people – Simply because in English, the most common term for this ethnic group is "Hungarian", not "Magyar". "Hungarian" once had a wider meaning, but I challenge someone to show me an ethnic Romanian or ethnic Slovak who refers to themselves by this term today. A comparison is that "Persian" used to be the term for all inhabitants of the Persian Empire, but today it refers to a specific ethnic group, with other groups in modern-day Iran ( Azeris, Kurds, Baloch, etc.) calling themselves Iranian, not Persian in order to avoid confusion. — Khoikhoi 17:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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"Magyar" in English is archaic and/or academic, a throw back to Greater Hungary. But a move will semantically strand " Magyarization." - AjaxSmack 23:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Alensha, are you being ironic when you type "Hungarians are not the only ethnic group in Hungary." instead of "Magyars are not the only ethnic group in Hungary."? Your usage there sort of emphasizes my argument. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 16:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
What parts of Africa or Asia would have any significant populations of Hungarians? I'd always thought the only Europeans who live in Africa are the British (in South Africa, Zimbabwe), some French (in Morocco), and the Spanish (in the west African islands). In Asia, there are Russians (in Asian Russia, the "-stans", and some in China) and the Portuguese (in Macau). Where are the Hungarians in Africa or Asia? Le Anh-Huy 06:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Few people went to South-Africa in the 1980s, I don't think there is any Hungarian community anywhere else. Zello 20:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This increase was partly due to the fact that non-Magyar population of the Kingdom was subjected to Magyarisation in the period between 1867 (the Ausgleich) and World War I.
"Magyarization" was never forced, just suggested, without --> "" <-- these. It was an answer to Panslavism, wich faned the flames of slavic nationalism. In fact a step against a possible "inland ethnic civil war".
== Later genetic influences ==
Besides the various peoples mentioned above, who mixed with the Magyars during their long way to and at their arrival in Hungary, the Magyars also include a genetic input from other peoples settled in this territory after the arrival of the Magyars, for example the Cumanians, Pechenegs, Jazones, Germans and other Western-European settlers in the Middle Ages. Romanians and Slovaks have lived together and blended with Magyars since early medieval times. Turks who occupied the central part of present-day Hungary from c. 1541 to c. 1699 and especially the various nations ( Germans, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats and others), that settled depopulated territories after the departure of the Turks in the 18th century all added their important contribution in composing the modern Hungarian nation. Both Jewish and Roma (Gypsy) minorities have been living in Hungary since the Middle Ages. Due to all these influences Magyars became genetically more or less similar to the inhabitants of the states neighbouring Hungary.
If it would be true, than the Kingdom of Hungary wouldn't be multiethnic. They lived next to each other in peace. Mainly. -- VinceB 13:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Abt 1.5 million ppl migrated from the KoH before WWI, nearly all were minorities.
It has an other reading also: the neighbours became similar to hungarians by genetics, because of mixed marriages, wich is not shown. Quite one sided this is, and I've never ever read such a ridiculous paragraph. Genetcally everybody (you and me also) 90-97% similar to a chimp also. :) -- VinceB 10:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence about genetics I think quite dubious. I saw different genetical studies and the only thing I accepted as a conclusion that you can prove virtually everything with studies like that and also the opposite one. But the paragraph contains factually correct historical informations and it's sure that Magyars mixed with these people in the course of history. Zello 11:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Zello, please don't put back without a consensus. I got my problems written down here, above. -- VinceB 11:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually there was consensus about the paragraph, and until you can prove that there was no intermarriage between Magyars and other people (that's impossible) the paragraph is factually correct. Zello 11:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Nope, instead of becoming slavic, they became hungarian. -- VinceB 14:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was not moved. Jonathunder 17:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Hungarian people → Hungarians– {This is a mistake, only one hungarian nationality exists.
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
To Septentrionalis – There are some 19,000 Slovaks in today's Hungary (total population is 10 million), and nobody calls them Hungarians. The Roma people (2% in census, with some higher estimates for various reasons) are the only minority in Hungary that is likely to be called Hungarian. K issL ( don't forget to vote!) 07:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
In the subsection History after 900 at some point it is stated that:
In my opinion this formulation, although it presents both theories as it should, it is not NPOV. In this form it implies that some historians from all over the world agree with the first statement, while only some historians from only two countries agree with the second statement. I therefore think that we should either say:
or
Hi Alexrap.
I understand what you're saying: as the article stood before, it DID imply that "some historians from all over the world agree with the first statement, while only some historians from only two countries agree with the second statement." However, I do not believe that this is a matter of POV or NPOV -- it's a matter of whether the implication is true or not. Are you absolutely sure that it is not the case that the 80% theory is widely accepted, and that only some historians dispute it? For that matter, if only Hungarian historians accept the 80% theory and only Romanian and Slovak historians accept the multi-ethnic theory, then what is the widely held view outside of these (biased) circles?
It's unfortunate that the original wording had not sources cited; I'd really like to see some. If none are available, then we should work out a compromise.
Korossyl
00:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Viking (Varangian) neighbours
Already briefly discussed, and edited, was the mention of Norman/Viking/Varangian neighbours of the Magyars. Vikings it is, but that doesn't seem right at all: I. Vikings weren't a people, but a Scandinavian warrior class (raiders, explorers, traders) and the use of that name is commonly restricted to the Norsemen/Normans who raided and invaded Western Europe [ [7]]; II. Varangian is the appropriate term for the Scandinavian enterprises in Eastern Europe [ [8]], but, again, the Varangians aren't a people.
Since the Varangians were the rapidly assimilating ruling class of the Slav peoples of future Russia, I think the phrase 'Vikings and the eastern Slavs' should be changed into something like 'the emerging Varangian (Russian?) nation (state?) and other eastern Slavs' (eastern Slav groups). 24.132.233.114 00:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
An unregistered user changed the number of Hungarians currently living in Hungary from 9,416,015 (in 2001) to 10,061,000 (in 2007), without updating the reference for this number. The reference from the article still says 9,416,015 and the new number does not seem to be based on any source whatsoever. Could someone provide the reference for the new 2007 number? Some days ago, as I couldn't find a new reference, I rewrote the 2001 number (as the only sourced number we have), but User:Öcsi reverted my edit. Öcsi, no, I'm not User:Bonaparte and I really hope that you won't start behaving like him. Alexrap 13:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought you were him because he always reduces the numbers of Hungarians in every article (once he wrote that there oly living 8.5 Million Hungarians in H; maybe in his dreams :). I will change my edit to 9.5-9.6 Million Hungarians, because the official census only counted 9.7 Mio people out of 10.1 Mio living in H. -- Öcsi 23:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
You should buy glasses. I have changed it, but not in the Infobox. Now it's done. Nevertheless, I have changed my edit.-- Öcsi 14:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Because it's 15 Million and the 2001 census didn't recorded everyone (myself included). Do you understand? -- Öcsi 14:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Here you have one: [9]. You can search other ones. But if you can't bring any reference which proves that the 400.000 not registrated Hu citizens aren't Hungarians then your argumentation has no validity too. -- Öcsi 15:20, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
You have obviously not read the census datas. Please read them again. -- Öcsi 15:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you stupid? What's about the section "Didn't want to answer"? -- Öcsi 15:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that we should always use official census numbers for demographic data. It seems to me that Alex is right with the 9,4 million number. Although no census is perfect and there were certainly mistakes we don't have any better source. Zello 17:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I want to know what exactly is depicted in the image at right and the year of the scene depicted. Specifically, I want to know if one of the kings pictured is supposed to be Berengar I of Italy, the first west European ruler to meet the invading Magyars (and be defeated by them). I am expanding that article and am looking for a usable image to spruce it up. Srnec 05:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with the Turkic people view: area of origin in the central asian steppes, fighting style based on horsback riding and reflex bogen arches, Pannonia's as area of European settlement rapresenting the most western extension of the Eurasian steppes continuum with its "Puszta",... all these points have been mentioned before, I would like to add one more point that may help explain the ethimology of the name Hungarian. Has anybody considered a link with the Uyghur people of central Asia? The cultural description would match quite easily http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people The ancestors of the Uyghur include the Huns (燻). ... the Uyghur emerged as the leaders of a new turkic coalition force called the "Toquz Oghuz". In 744 A.D. the Uyghur, together with other related subject tribes (the Basmyl and Qarluq), defeated the Göktürk Khanate and founded the Uyghur Empire at Mount Ötüken, which lasted for about 100 years (744-840 A.D.). [edit] Uyghur Empire: the golden age (744-840 A.D.) Properly called the On-Uyghur (ten Uyghurs) and Toquz-Oghuz (nine tribes) Orkhon Khanate, the Uyghur Empire stretched from the Caspian Sea[citation needed] to Manchuria and lasted from 744 to 840 A.D..
From Uy-gur, to Un-gurs, to Un-gars, to Hun-gars the steps are really very small. Has any one analyzed this possibility? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papidi ( talk • contribs) 07:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Are they a Turkic people? The Magyar horse riding skills makes me think so, but I don't know for sure Tourskin 23:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
"it is easier and faster for a Turkic-speaking and/or Iranic-speaking elite to change over to the Ugric of the majority than it is for the minority speakers to influence the majority."
Why is that? This sort of language shift driven by a small elite of new rulers happened in the much larger Turkey (and in Azerbaidjan) in the course of - at the most - just one or two centuries.
I was under the impression that Ugric-speaking people were always on the western side of the Urals while this article states that the earliest Finno-Ugric settlements were on the eastern side. As far as I know from Russian history, Ob-Ugrics were pushed to the eastern side only after confrontation with the growing Russian empire. Taking a look at the Finno-Ugric languages article I see no mention about the eastern side. Someone want to clarify? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 17:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
The whole regional population "map" is all screwed up. You have western countries (Germany) listed under eastern, and eastern not listed under eastern (serbia, romania etc.). You also have Turkey listed under Africa instead of Eurasia. I would reorganize all these myself, but being a bit of a newbie to Wiki editing, I took one look at the way it's organized on the editing page, and was lost lol. JanderVK
The first sentence of the lead says. " Hungarians (Hungarian: Magyarok) or Magyars[11] are an ethnic group primarily associated with Hungary." The infobox uses Hungarians (Magyarok), so all the main article concent uses the term "Hungarians", while the article uses Hungarian people. This looks extremely silly, that even the bolded intro in the lead won't match the title, one or the other should be changed so they at least match and consistent within the most important parts of the article (title, lead, infobox). Hobartimus 16:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to be edited by someone with a native or near-native level of English. For a start, I suggest correcting the introductory section as follows:
"Magyars have been the main inhabitants of the Kingdom of Hungary that existed through most of the second millennium. After the Treaty of Trianon Magyars have become minority inhabitants on the territory of..." changed to "Magyars were the main inhabitants of the Kingdom of Hungary that existed through most of the second millennium. After the Treaty of Trianon, Magyars became minority inhabitants on the territory of..."
"but unlike the Magyars living within the former Kingdom of Hungary, only a minority of these preserves the Hungarian language and tradition." changed to "but, unlike the Magyars living in areas that were formerly part of the Kingdom of Hungary, only a minority of these retains the Hungarian language and traditions" "There was a referendum in Hungary in December 2004 on whether to grant Hungarian citizenship to Magyars living outside Hungary's borders (i.e. without requiring a permanent residence in Hungary). The referendum failed due to the insufficient voter turnout, and caused some recruitment of the local nationalist movements and parties in the surrounding countries." Well, this is so poorly written, that it is not fully comprehensible. Indeed, I do not see the justification for placing this text in the introduction; it refers to a failed referendum that was of minor political import. I suggest removing or, at the very least, changing to: "Hungary held a referendum in December 2004 on whether to grant Hungarian citizenship to Magyars living outside Hungary's borders. The referendum failed due to the insufficient voter turnout." I have already removed the gibberish about recruitment (possibly the author meant 'resentment'). Scott Moore 12:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the numbers in the Infobox. I have good reason to do it, this is not some nationalistic blowing up numbers. Here comes the reasoning:
I am using the same census data as used before: which was used as a reference to the old numbers, however note, that in the 2001 data there are two entries "Did not wish to answer" and "Unknown" amounting together for 570,537 counts.
It is safe an prudent to assume, that of those the same ratio is ethnic Hungarian, as is (a) the ratio of them among the declared ethnicities; In fact, of course, it could happen, that a certain minority does not declare more often, than ethnic Hungarians, however, whether it's this way or not can be verified well by (b) the ratio of ethnic Hungarians of the 1990 data (which did not have those categories, so everyone had to declare. Actually, it's methodologically more correct to use the 1990 ratio, but I am going to use the smaller ratio to be diligent, so that by no means can anyone claim I'm blowing up numbers:
Let H the number of declared ethnic Hungarians in 2001, so H = 9,416,045.
Let U the number of "Unknown" and "Did not answer", then U = 570,537.
Let R_2001 the ratio of ethnic Hungarians within the declared ethnicities, then R_2001 = 9,416,045 / 9,734,436 = 96.73%.
Let R_1990 the ratio of ethnic Hungarians within the inhabitants of Hungary, then R_1990 = 10,142,072 / 10,374,823 = 97.94%.
Then HA, the number more close to the actual number of ethnic Hungarians in Hungary according to the 2001 census data is HA = H + min{R_2001 * U, R_1990 * U} = 9,416,045 + min{551,876; 558,795} = 9,967,921.
I do believe, that noone can fight these numbers, but I'm open for discussion. Please do not revert them without discussion!
Szabi
17:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Hungary 9,967,921 (2001)
please look at hungary article for 2007 count. Mallerd 17:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I wonder that there is no picture of Ferenc Puskas at the top of the infobox. He is that symbol for hungarian football. -- 89.182.130.134 17:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this article could be improved by having more written about the Hungarian subgroups. The Szekely are mentioned somewhat in passing, the Jasz and Csango only in the 'See also' section, and nothing about the Paloc, Matyo, and őrs (which I saw in some anthropological study once mentioning the highest incidence of "original" Magyar DNA existed amongst them. Like http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&list_uids=8935316&cmd=Retrieve&indexed=google I think). -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 01:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Hungarian prehistory is being fixed up so it is no longer a POV fork. I noticed, in reviewing the "mainstream" Finno-Ugric theory presented in this article, that what is written is just as bad as the POV fork. It claims things like a Western Siberian/East of the Urals urheimat for Finno-Ugric without citation when "mainstream" Finno-Ugricists would say it was on the western side of the Urals. This page will need a lot of fixing up as well. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 23:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
This statement contradicts Finno-Ugric languages. Is this claim based upon Russian archeology?
During the fourth millennium BC, some of the earliest settlements of the Finno-Ugric-speaking peoples were situated east of the Ural Mountains, where they hunted and fished.
This statement also needs sourcing. I'm assuming the intent here is to talk about the ancient Iranic influence upon the Magyar language. If so, it is not difficult to find a source, but I'm pretty sure no one knows which Iranic group was the influence so who is saying it was Sarmatians?
During the following centuries, the proto-Magyars continued to live in the wood-steppes and steppes southeast of the Ural Mountains, strongly influenced by their immediate neighbours, the ancient Sarmatians.
-- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 23:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Who says this? The Middle-Volga region is regarded as the Finno-Ugric language urheimat. Why would Magyars have to have moved there?
In the fourth and fifth centuries AD, the proto-Magyars moved to the west of the Ural Mountains to the area between the southern Ural Mountains and the Volga River known as Bashkiria (Bashkortostan).
Only Constantine wrote about Levedia and he didn't put it between the Volga, Don, and Donets...
In the early eighth century, some of the proto-Magyars moved to the Don River to an area between the Volga, Don and the Seversky Donets rivers called Levedia.
-- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 23:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Is really Mathias Corvinus an ethnic Hungarian ? How can you put him there ? He was half Romanian, half Hungarian, it is all known. More, by paternal side, which one can say it's most important, he was Romanian. So, at least it is not its place here, where you must put the most representative ethnic Hungarians ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madalinfocsa ( talk • contribs) 12:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
What He think about himself? Mathias rex Hungarorom how interpreted about his family root? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.89.212.202 ( talk) 12:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what the numbers in the infobox refer to (no citations), but it seems they're about Hungary itself, which is misleading - not all Hungarian citizens are Magyars (arguably Hungarian Jews, for instance), and certainly not all Hungarians live in Hungary. Better to put something like "Roman Catholic, Protestant (mainly Reformed, Lutheran, Unitarian), Unaffiliated". Biruitorul ( talk) 22:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Whilst the intro is good, it is a little confusing. It states that On-ogur derives means ten tribes. Did this stem from the Western Gokturk khanate, the Khazar khanate or the 10 Magyar tribes ? Hxseek ( talk) 04:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Wikinist is hellbent on changing the wording of 'the most widely-accepted theory [of a common Finno-Ugric origin' to 'the traditional theory'. While his source contesting the theory should be given space in the article, I think the wording he is sticking to makes the academically most universally accepted origin theory appear unlikely. I think 'most widely-accepted' should stay. I'd like to ask the input of third parties on this one. Caius ( talk) 07:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The article contradicts itself. Lets see:
1: Finno-Ugric peoples have (present tense, so currently) a common origin. Origin means by default the origin of population.
=> Modern Finno-Ugric peoples are genetically alike.
=> There is a genetical continuity between the present F-U speakers and those who brought the language.
However, the article also says "Modern Hungarian-speaking populations seem to be specifically European, and the results demonstrate that significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and recent Hungarian-speaking populations, and no genetic continuity is seen."
The upper claim is a historical view, based on a belief that language always tells about ancerstors. The latter is of an actual science. If origin of language is meant, it should be told. While the Finno-Ugric languages have obviously common roots, the common origin of populations speaking F-U languages is pseudoscientist. But you are of course not meaning this, so maybe you should clarify the article?
Wikinist ( talk) 22:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Could you please start to use original correct Latinized Hanti (hard H) instead of wrong Russian origin cyrillic Khanti. Based to cyrillic X. Thank you. By the way, Obi Ugrians means Great River (Obi) Ugris. Unkarilaiset (Hungarians) lived on the other side (ie. western) of Urali. Pääbo: Uirala / Uirali. For more detailed early history published in Finland: Eero Kuussaari; Suomen Suvun Tiet, Helsinki 1935. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.204.159 ( talk) 18:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
An old fried of mine now at age 85, living at Bets, Auszria (Wien, Austria) and ethnic Deutch (German) who have friends also (as I do) in Budapest (Buda-Pesti), Unkari (Magyarorszák), have many times told when visiting here in Helsinki while having a coffee during summer in open air restarants; "If I close my eyes and just listen to how people are speaking I can be as well in Budapest or Helsinki. Of course the Hungarian language is little softer and uses zs but basicly the tempo of speech is exactly the same.
I personally can at ones hear who speaks Hungarian in one listening. I remember while in Spain just north of Barcelona during summer prior the Barcelona Olympic Games a group arrived to same hotel where I stayed. We talked Finnish at swimming pool when an old Gentleman with his Panama hat sat on next table and said at ones in Deutsh: You are Finnish and I am your cousin from Ungvari in Upper Hungary. I was born to Magyar parents in Dual Monarchy in 1916, become citizen of Chechoslovakia in 1918, then for one day I was in 1939 citizen of Karpatho Rutenia, went to sleep and wake up next morning to be on March 16, 1939 a citizen of Kiralyi Hungary again. In October 1944 I become citizen of Czechoslovakia again, but in 1945, when Carpathian Ruthenia was ceded by Czechoslovakia, I become a citizen of Soviet Ukraina in Soviet Union as I am today travelling with Hungarian Passport. But I will sooner or later, the sooner the better, be a citizen of independent Ukraina but it does not disturb me at all. States come and goes, but Ungvar is and remains by soul an old Hungarian (Alte Hungarische) town.
The lot talked Sumeri connection is also known in Finnish history by name Persian connection. This means a number of loan words of indo-european origin from Middle East to both languages. In fact, nobody can say is the connection to Sumeri language or to ancient Bactria but it existed. One typical Finnish saying is; Etelän miehet (Southern men) and many others like etana, sata, porsas, raha, Sumeria (place name) etc, still in every day use. Compare with Mordvin Sura, Sumerlja etc.
Please also note; the origin of Lactose intolerance (37 per cent) carried by Hungarians has been located in 2005 by Finland´s Academia Professor Leena Palotie to slopes in Southern Urali, today´s Boshkortostan. This genetic mutation appears to have originated during period 4.600 - 2.800 BC. The Finnish tribes Udmurts, and Mordvians carry also the same genetic mutation in even larger extend than the Hungarians.
By the way, what about the Finno Ugrian emigration from Oka area (Mordvin tribes) to Phennonia (Pannonia) and Erdely / Vanaati in c. 200 BC to 150 AD?.
I cannot understand why many indo-europeans want to make Unuguris an indo-european people, as well as some have recently been tried to make also Finnish origin dispused. A certain element of Hungarian soul carries this Finno Ugrian geene in thinking and acting, not the indo-european one. Peharps the best experts in this subject are those who have not Uniguri roots. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.204.159 ( talk) 20:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I removed the added genetic section to the article because it looked like a cut and paste from one of the articles on Dienekes' anthropology blog. There's some good recent studies there on Hungarian and ancient Hungarian DNA. If anyone wants to improve this article, cruise over to http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search/label/Hungarians and check it out. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 16:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it beliveable? Not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celebration1981 ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I have also read that the name Magyar is derived from the Slavic word medja (border)> medjar (a person [living] on the border) or medju (inbetween) both acceptable if you look at Hungary's geography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.78.64.105 ( talk) 00:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
LOL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.209.244.184 ( talk) 20:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
MagyarTürk, can you please stop playing with numbers, it doesn't even make sense what you say, we need to use official census data, the official census data in Romania says, per source that there are 1434377 Hungarians and 1370 Csángós/Ceangai, this is clear and official Romanian census, no possibility of confusion, this is how people declared themselves in Romania.
Your source which seems highly unreliable (and I will show you why) says that Hungarians = 1,431,807 (2002)[1] or 1,671,845[2] (with Csángós) That would mean that there are 240,047 Csángós, however on the same site it says that there at around 70,000 Csángós of which most of them declare themselves Hungarian. How can you account for an increase from 70,000 to 240,047 in the number of Csángós? -- this is a mark of high unreliability.
Regardless of that number, in Romania only 1,370 people declared themselves Csángós, the rest presumable declared themselves Hungarians or something else, counting them again it would be double-counting. Why do we have to discuss this? And please stop reverting well sourced data with your original research, and please mind WP:3RR. man with one red shoe 01:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I've said this before about a year ago, and I'll say it again. The infobox numbers refer to the 2001 Hungary census and are thus misleading: not all Hungarian citizens are Magyars (arguably Hungarian Jews, for instance), and certainly not all Hungarians live in Hungary. For instance in Romania, there are large numbers (not sure about exact %) of Roman Catholics and Reformed, a small Unitarian community, and almost no unaffiliated: a distinctly different picture from Hungary. We'd do better by putting something like "Roman Catholic, Protestant (mainly Reformed, Lutheran, Unitarian), Unaffiliated". - Biruitorul Talk 17:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Why was the information about Madjars removed? That's not a fringe theory. It's new and I haven't seen any outright rejection of it. See also [10] -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 14:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Take the time to look at the actual source published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology then: [11] -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 17:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Look hair color and eye color anthropology maps. Type in google image searcher: "hair color map" or type: "eye color map". Compare the Hungarian Serbian and Romanian pigmentations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celebration1981 ( talk • contribs) 19:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I mean I have some problem with the word "Magyars". If we refer to Hungarians in an English context, we shall call them (us) "Hungrians". As we call Englishmen "angolok" in a Hungarian context and not "English emberek" neither "az English-ek". It is irritating and I think grammatically incorrect. A text should be consequent on which language it's using. And if there is a corresponding word to translate to, I don't see why make up one (Magyars instead of Hungarians). Velag ( talk) 19:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
An IP has deleted the following entire text section : Besides the various peoples mentioned above, the Magyars assimilated or were influenced by subsequent peoples arriving in the Carpathian Basin. Among these are the Cumanians, Pechenegs, Jazones, Germans and other Western European settlers in the Middle Ages. Romanians and Slovaks have lived together and blended with Magyars since early medieval times. Ottomans, who occupied the central part of present-day Hungary from c.1541 until c.1699, inevitably exerted an influence, as did the various nations ( Germans, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats and others) that resettled depopulated territories after their departure. The advanced economic and political conditions of the Slavs, who had preceded the Magyars' arrival but continued to migrate thereafter, and those of the Germans exerted a significant influence; many Hungarian words relating to agriculture, politics, religion and handicrafts were borrowed from Slavic languages. Similar to other European countries, both Jewish and Roma (Gypsy) minorities have been living in Hungary since the Middle Ages. The deletion entailed no reaction. It is interesting to see again and again, what has become possible in the English wikipedia. Hiohiohio5 ( talk) 21:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Why does the article not speak about genetical biological reality instead of linguist and other obsolete tales? The conquering Hungarian tribes gave 5-10% of the entire population of early Hungary. According to genetics, the conqueror Hungarian tribes (and the later foreign western solfdiers) gave the ruling elite of medieval Hungary. More and more western historians think, that the conqueror tribes had foreign (non-Hungarian) turkic languages which was disappeared by time. Present-day Hungarian language is not based on the original language of conqueror tribes
The section talking about the "reduction" of percentage of Magyars in Kingdom of Hungary, I quote: In the 18th century their percentage declined further because of the influx of new settlers from Europe, especially Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, and Germans.
Sorry about that, but you -Hammer of Habsburg- absolutely do not know the history of Hungary,or history of Magyars.
Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep ten threads.-- Oneiros ( talk) 00:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Captions for images go before or after the image, not both. The eight headshots in this image should be stored and marked up separately, to preserve meaning and context; not glued together and surrounded with words like some kind of mandatory school assignment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.126.76.253 ( talk) 07:53, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
How can Croatia, located very much western of the Hungary's south be listed as south-east Europe and at the same time Hungary, far east of Croatia be central Europe? Or am I that bad in geography? Hammer of Habsburg ( talk) 00:26, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
The external link/reference - arpad.org - does not conform with what is generally accepted by mainstream historians about the origins of the Magyars - seems to be some lunatic-fringe based nationalistic site. Magyars began in Mesopotamia, eh? And Sumerians are closely related to them? Sure - how could we have missed this "fact" over the centuries? I propose this be removed - any objections? HammerFilmFan ( talk) 05:27, 6 October 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFan
I have added new informations about Hungarian genetic researches. It would be great if somebody contributed more informations about this theme. Those researches can give us very new point of views. Fakirbakir ( talk) 11:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC) These facts are from Hungarian Academy of Sciences, reliable sources. I hope this research, treatise will be published in English as well, (or it is existing, just I do not know) Fakirbakir ( talk) 15:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
There is a sentence refering to a Science article from 2000 but not proper reference is given. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
150.227.15.253 (
talk)
08:51, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Should there be a note on how to pronounce this? When I was in Hungary, I learned it was pronounced with a soft g (ie,"Mah-jyar". Yet it seems to be common for people to mispronounce it with a hard G as "Mag-Yar" 216.116.87.110 ( talk) 18:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Hungarians speak Finno-Ugric language, Hungarians are 'partly-mostly' a Finno-Ugric population however we can not disregard the Turkic connections. Hungarian and Non-Hungarian academic works are existed about that. Please stop deleting months of work. Fakirbakir ( talk) 07:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
---
in addition, who added a sentence certain like this without a refferance;
"Although the name of the modern-day Hungarian people is based on Turkic roots, the Hungarians themselves are actually not related to the Turkic peoples," -- 78.174.115.93 ( talk) 14:20, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
If not how can you deny the place of the Magyars in our racial ancestry? 71.212.214.163 ( talk) 06:47, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
If you read the article nobody states this. Actually, the page demonstrates that the ancient Hungarians had mostly Europid characters (Turanid, East-baltic). (Pal Liptak) Fakirbakir ( talk) 11:29, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Slavic people and present-day Romanians contains average higher ratio of east-Asian (aka. Mongoloid) haplogroup markers than presnt-day Hungarians. --
84.0.57.240 (
talk)
12:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Do we have to deny (decades) works of Hungarian academic anthropologists? Because, according to User:Valosag, Turanid race is obsolete term, It does not exist, and the researchers are racist if somebody of them dare to use it? It is ridiculous. Pal Liptak's works are good quality and he had vast knowledge about migration period, Hungarians. Science and Turanism are different things. Antrophology uses this term without any racist reasoning. Genetic researches are different things again and thosse are just related with Anthropology (not the same discipline). Fakirbakir ( talk) 00:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Moreover Liptak"s works are important and dominant in connection with early Hungarians, Avars (in the Carpathian Basin). Fakirbakir ( talk) 01:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
-Non-fact, written by non-entity.
|I did some editing to meet Wikipedia's quality NPOV standards ;)| CormanoSanchez ( talk) 07:50, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
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The caption for the map of the Magyar raids into western Europe states "Most European nations were praying for mercy..." - this is un-encyclopedic and unsourced and needs to be adjusted.
The term "Vikings" should be changed to Varangians, to be more precise.
Many of the sections have repeated statements and jump around from one topic only to return to it again a paragraph later - probably the result of various editors wishing to stress their own competing references - disjointed, poor grammar. The text should be rewritten so that the various views are laid out in a logical manner, with the mainstream positions being stressed over the minor opinions.
What purpose does the "Eastern Hemisphere 1100 A.D." map have - what value does Africa, Asia and Australia have for this article? HammerFilmFan ( talk) 14:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan
Here are a few candidates:
マーテー ( talk) 02:07, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Magyars are the true ethnic name for ethnic people of Hungary. Hungarians is just the name that foreigners use. Why not use "Magyars" for this article instead of "Hungarian people"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.224.80.206 ( talk) 03:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Support - term "Hungarian people" in English can means also a inhabitants of the "Hungarian kingdom" of variouse ethnic origin. "Magyars" is better form for ethnicity. Its same case like Netherlands and Dutchs (Its more hits to Netherlands people as Dutch people in google). Until the late 19th century was the term "Hungarians" used for a Slovaks, Magyars, Ruthenians, Germans and all inhabitants of the Hungarian kingdom. With the rise of Hungarian nationalism started Magyars use this name exclusively for Magyars. Citation: "Hungarian and Magyar were synonymous until the end of of the eighteen century because nobody thought that the mother-tongue should be made the main criterion of nationhood. With the new emphasis placed on language, Magyar developed a more restricted meanig for those who spoke a particular language, while Hungarian maintained the broader meaning of those who lived in the Hungarian kingdom." So from the end of 18th century its different between Hungarians and Magyars. Term "Hungarian" and usage of this term for present day "Magyars" is nationalistic anachronism from 18-19th century. Some Magyar nationalists want to use these words as synonyms because its nationalistic instrument to create the ethnic and political history of Hungarian kingdom and Hungarians connected exclusively with ethnic Magyars. Because of this nationalism the Hungarian kingdom was divided into successor states: (mostly) Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary (btw new created Hungary was called "Magyaria" in official English documents [12]), Yugoslavia. Aim of these attempts are to link continuity of Hungarian kingdom exclusively with Hungary and Magyars. Its process of useing national mythology, nationalistic point of view of their history, deleteing of the different opinions and so on. You will hardly find a so many "historians" in one country like in Hungary. Their besetting insistency will be hard to change. If we deals with exact terms: "Hungarian people" about 83 000 hits [13] about "Magyars" 334 000 hits [14] -- Samofi ( talk) 10:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
It was a more successor states, its 1000 sources about it. Only Magyars wants to make Hungary only successor state. [19] read official documents. Successor states anexed a territory of the former Hungarian kingdom. In 1918 it was a Aster revolution in Hungarian kingdom and it was created a "Magyar Republic". For example Treaty of Trianon, there is written which states are successors (CS, HU, YU, RO). Dont you agree with treaty of trianon? -- Samofi ( talk) 13:42, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
NOTE: User:Hobartimus opposes because of user:samofi was formerly blocked, he has no relevant arguments about this topic. It can be considered as personal attack instead of arguments: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." "What is considered to be a personal attack?" "Linking to external attacks, harassment, or other material, for the purpose of attacking another editor". Former block of user:samofi is external case in the relation with this discussion and linking this former block with discussion about Hungarian people can be considered as personal attack. -- Samofi ( talk) 19:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I oppose for many reasons only some of which I outlined above, like a lot more use in English for the term "Hungarians". Since this text is written for English speakers it helps if we use terms they are already familiar with and widely use. Hobartimus ( talk) 19:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
NOTE Its manipulation.
Of course its use more often because it has 2 meanings. Before 1918 it was a citizenship - its correct. And after 1918 its sometimes used as citizenship and ethnic term. But term "Magyars" is use much more often used in the connection with dominant ethnic group in Hungary ( [26] - Magyar - a member of the ethnic group, of the Finno-Ugric stock, that forms the predominant element of the population of Hungary). We need to disambiguation terms "Hungarian people" and "Hungarians" (for example like the term "American" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American). Present article about "Hungarian people" is written about "ethnic Magyars" not about citizens of Hungary (its also Slovaks, Magyars, Jews, Germans). Its nationalism to connect political term which was used 1000 years with connection to people with variouse ethnic origin exclusively to Magyars as synonym. Its not synonym, you can read each English terminological dictionary. Ideas above are Ethnic nationalism - its danger for Wikipedia. -- Samofi ( talk) 07:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The article says that around 1000 "the Hungarian nation numbered between 25,000 and 1,000,000 people." Is it not possible to offer a narrower range of estimates? I realize numbers are sketchy for the early Middle Ages, but still this is a huge discrepancy. It's like estimating a crowd at "between 25 and 1,000."
Dealing with the 18th century, the article says, "Droves of Romanians entered Transylvania during the same period." Droves seems vaguely pejorative and POV.
Sca ( talk) 22:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
The reference to "nation" in the introduction must have been related to the attempt to recognize that the word "Hungarian" did not refer specifically to the Magyar ethnic group. It could mean a German who was a citizen of Hungary (The Kingdom of Hungary is historically multi-ethnic). There has been past discussion on this which can probably be found in the Talk archives. Some have advocated to name this article "Magyar" in order to remain specific and sensitive to this while others have advocated for "Hungarian". Obviously, the article's subject is the ethnic group, not the nation. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 22:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
For reference: Hungarians, also known as Magyars ( Hungarian: magyarok), are a Fenno-Ugric ethnic group native to and primarily associated with Hungary.
Why I keep removing this from the introduction:
I'm fully aware that there is use of the term "Finno-Ugric peoples" by various organizations who seek to promote the creation and sharing of more cultural bonds based on a linguistic language family and I take no issue with that, but it really has no place in an encyclopedic introduction (it is already linked to in the History section). "Finno-Ugric peoples" is a populist term and not scientific. Using such unscientific terms in the introduction would make it equally valid for someone else to come along and want "Ural-Altaic ethnic group", "Turanic ethnic group", "Hunno-Magyar ethnic group", "Germano-Slavic ethnic group", etc., etc.
Moreover, I remove "native to" because it contradicts the article, which gives a history of Hungarians coming from Siberia.
Alternative: Hungarians, also known as Magyars ( Hungarian: magyarok), are an ethnic group primarily associated with Hungary and speak a Finno-Ugric languages. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 20:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Stacey Doljack Borsody, the "native" part is in complete contradiction with the rest of the article, especially used in connection with Finno-Ugric peoples who are clearly not native to Europe. It is clear that 1000 years later, the modern Hungarians are well established in Europe, but it is still hard to make the case for being native. Same issues apply to Gypsies in Europe, Turks in Europe (even in Anatolia!) and the Europeans in Americas. They are all well established but not native (although, usually, they will all like to think of themselves that they are - until someone reminds them they are not). Of course, it can all be subjective and loaded with politics. You can always ask the question: how long can a group live somewhere before it becomes native? On top of it populations merge (as genetics shows for Hungarians) and languages mix. See also Native. It is not easy to phrase this in a way to not offend a party or another. I did my best to write it as accurately and neutral as possible. But I am happy to see any further refinement.-- Codrin.B ( talk) 18:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Finno-ugric peoples have been living in Eastern Europe since the Slavs arrived to Europe. But yes, they (and all of the European peoples) migrated to Europe via North Africa (and Caucasus, Central Asia). For instance, Finno-Ugric population lived in the region of Moscow, however latter Slav migrations from the west changed the ethnic composition of the area. If I follow your reasoning Croats will not be native in Croatia, Serbs will not be native in Serbia (because they were new settlers from the north, around 500 AD) Finns will be not native in Finland and eventually nobody will be native in Europe because everybody came from Africa. On the other hand, Hungarian homeland was in Eastern Europe (somewhere at the borders between Europe and Asia next to the Slavs(west) and Turk/Iranian peoples(south)) and Hungarians have been living in the Carpathian Basin for 1100 years. I think this space of time is enough to be considered Hungarians native in the Carpathian Basin. Fakirbakir ( talk) 11:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Those maps are misleading and explain nothing. The genetic researches about Hungarians are confusing and there are totally opposite opinions (started from Finno-Ugric haplogroups alias R1a1a1-z280 vs. N1c1 etc....). If the new researches are right about R1a1a1-z280 the Hungarian academic genetic researches will be almost entirely rubbish because of the different methods. For instance, they (the Hungarian academics in the previous decade) were looking for "Asian" markers instead of "real" Finno-Ugric markers ("European" markers as z280, according to the newest researches )....
Fakirbakir (
talk)
13:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the word "native" because of non-consensus.
Fakirbakir (
talk)
13:14, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Click here for discussions before 2005-09-10. |
I am sure the numbers added are very disputable; the Magyars outside "the Basin" are missing; what exactly is the "Basin"; why should the percentage in "the Basin" be decisive etc etc. If you really feel that this paragraph must be added, then cite the source at least... Juro 01:02, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Not quite.
(2005.09.10) Again, cite your source (I am quite sure you have used some nationalist text) because these are quite important numbers, secondly taking the 1910 census as a basis is wrong (the number of Magyars was highly overstated), thirdly there are Magyars outside the "Basin" now, fourthly I still did not see the exact definition of "the Basin" (just the plain or what?), fifthly the neighbouring countries are not the cause of the high suicide rate and low birth rate in the country Hungary which is the main factor in this "problem", sixtly - ignoring what I have said above - if you are going to compare who "doubled/tripled" (numbers that always depend on what you take as a basis) then you should also show who tripled/doubled etc. before 1910 according to official Hungarian numbers in a clearly defined country called Kingdom of Hungary without any wars, border changes or other special circumstances (as compared to WWI etc.)...If I hadn't more important things to do now, I would look at those figures myself, maybe I will do that one day... Juro 16:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
(2005.09.11)
(2005.09.14)
According to this I claim that 10.065 million Magyars and 10.093 million Romanians lived in Central Europe in the early XX. century. These numbers rose to 22.045 million Romanians and 13.239 million Magyars until 1977-1980!
(1) And what about the remaining numbers?
(2) You must have a "normal" source, like a book, study, statistical tables...(I understand Hungarian, if that's the problem...)
(3) And, as you can see you used the expression "Central Europe", so it's not the "Basin" anymore??? Juro 11:20, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
(2005.09.16) You've right. The original research is prohibited, but the calculation is not. OK, I accept mabe I'm wrong in some exact numbers. The Magyars number was not 10.065, but 10.199 million, in 1910. Therefore I've used 10-11 million instead. Similarly You have the choice to make your own research and if you find completelty different numbers please inform us.
And that two link I gave you is nothing else than a digitized form of a recently published book in Hungary about nations in Central(Köztes) Europe between 175X - 1980(?). Given an overall picture about what Hungarian historians think about recent past of the region.
The "Basin" question: if you make a comparasion between Romanians and Magyars it is negligable wheter Croatia/Slovenia/Burgenland is included into the Basin or not. Romanians percentage compared to Magyars percentage will not change ... somewhat decrease from 54% respectivelly 15% to 54-c and 15-c-- fz22 07:01, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
The number of Hungarians in Israel has been changed to 10,000. This is because there are only 10,000 ethnic hungarians in Israel. However there are around 250,000 jews of hungarian origin, but they are ethnically jewish, not hungarian. This article is trying to find out how many "ethnic hungarians" live world wide. Also in Australia, 62,000 people identified themselves as hungarian in the 2001 census.
It was me who added the mention to depression. Naturally, no link can be established between the various historical events and the depression among Magyars, but my original formulation was "[...] all contributed to a general feeling of depression" (emphasis added). I don't think this is so wild a speculation, though it can probably be fine-tuned. That the percentage of depressed people is unusually high among Magyars, in turn, is pretty much of an established fact; I can't cite anything off the top of my head, but I remember having seen studies showing this, of which the high number of suicides is but a well-measurable effect. I suppose that this has more to do with the people in Hungary than with Magyars in general, but as to the demographic consequences, the two are more and more correlated. Which brings me to the point of mentioning this at all: it was not to say that the number of Magyars is anyhow "too low", but simply to provide some context for the demographic estimate of 2050, a quite low but still correct one for a group today numbering over 11 million. It is, of course, more of a speculation that the low number of births is (at least partly) due to depression, though I wouldn't be surprised to see that someone has already established that link.
As for Magyarisation, I still maintain that the words I removed are superfluous and have no other effect than being less concise, but I can live with the current version (with "largely" added, so "solely" not implied).
Kiss L 09:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I can only repeat that you cannot be serious if you think that Trianon or WWII has something to do with the current and future demographic development (until 2050?????!) in Hungary...It could have had (but it had not, of course) something to do with the general demographic development in the interwar period and in the 50s/60s, but the demographice development started just AFTER these periods (the population of Hungary started to decrease only around 1980 and decreased by more than 1 million (!!) persons until 2003)...How can you even contemplate such totally illogical things in obvious contradiction with reality??? If we start to write such non-sense here then you can really write anything that comes to your mind, that will yield the same in the end... Juro 02:32, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
You're not getting my point. I'm not contemplating a direct connection between Trianon and the demographic development. What I am assuming is that Trianon is one of the reasons behind depression, and that depression is one of the reasons behind the demographic development in Hungary. Both assumptions are common sense. I didn't force any direct connection between Trianon and demographics into the article.
And as for when that development started - there has been an absolutely constant decrease in the number of children per possible parents since before WWII. In particular, the population decrease that started in the 1980s had been on schedule for at least two decades, because already in the 1960s the fertility rate dropped low enough so that there were less children than possible parents despite the so-called "Ratkó era", which (precisely in the 1960s when this trend first alarmed the political elite) saw numerous efforts to increase the willingness of the population to have children, and did in fact produce an outstanding (but still insufficient) "wave" of childbirth for a few years.
There is more to demographics than increase or decrease in a population - there are lots of dependencies on age structure, because death rates are more or less determined by the number of aged people, while birth rates are determined by both the number of reproductive women and a set of socioeconomical constraints. So to state that the current development started around 1980 would be a huge mistake.
In view of this, what are the "totally illogical" things I am contemplating "in obvious contradiction with reality?"
Kiss L 09:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
These are well-known things, the problem is I am not criticising the statement that someone was allegedly depressed, I am criticising the whole part of the text, which MAKES the above connection. And I repeat this for the 5th time already that the text
exactly what I am saying above (meaning it is still illogical), because even if we assumed that there was a demographic change IN HUNGARY say right at the time of Trianon or right in 1945, it then still continues and intesifies and is similar to developments in other countries, which itself shows that it has nothing to do with Trianon etc. and every demographer knows it. Finally, actually I am not interested in what you or anybody personally thinks, wanted to write (but did not) or things like that, I am only interested in having a text here that at least does not contain lies (wanted or not) -given that the article is far from ideal anyway- and that's what I am talking about here all the time. But Zello said above he would write a more precise text, so let'see (hopefully)... Ah yes, I mentioned the above decrease only to show what a difference it is whether one looks at numbers say of 1910-1970 or at numbers of 1910-2003 - and what is the (huge) difference, i.e. the "problem"? Answer: The internal development in Hungary. But what does the text imply? The problem of the TOTAL number of Magyars in an undefined "Basin" (including Hungary) lies abroad and in WWI and WWII. This is what the text says now, I do not know how to explain it in simpler terms. Juro 20:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I wrote the new section about demographics. All of my data came from Ignác Romsics's new book (History of Hungary in the 20th century). Sorry KissL but I deleted the expression "depression". However I think the last paragraph (from Fz222) needs a little upgrading (datas etc) in any case and there you can find a place for this thought. Zello 00:02, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Where are the new numbers from? I don't think that Romsics made mistakes in such an important question... Zello 09:17, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I reverted the sentence because of two reasons:
I do not agree with you (see above /Last changes/) The population of Hungary was 7.9 out of which 7.1 million were Magyars in 1910 (the article is about Magyars not Germans, Jewish, Romas etc) 'til 1941 this number rose to ~8,500,000 in Hungary plus 2.5 - 3,000,000 million in neighbouring countries and to 10,500,000 in Hungary + 2,500,000 million in n.c. in 1980.-- fz22 07:35, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it is not good idea to exclude nationalities from population estimates because they were part of the Hungarian nation. But yes, in this sense you are right, I looked up the numbers in the Romsics book:
We should decide wether we use these numbers or we speak about the total population of Hungary. Kissl, Juro?
1100 year old Magyar people almost doesn't exist in genetical terms. You won't find anybody in the country whose all ancestor came here with Árpád. Magyars absorbed an immense number of other peoples in their history, and Jews were one of them. As I said before 1944 they were counted as Magyars in every census... But I won't fight for this question, this topic is too heated now.
It makes no sense to speak Magyars as a whole after Trianon. Of course this is one nation, but the demographic process were not the same in Hungary and in the neighbouring countries.
Zello
12:28, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
OK. I can only say that I largely agree with Zello. The current version is quite in order, provided the numbers are correct (I wished I had the time and mood to check them...). Maybe it would be really helpful to also point out the development of other nationalities in Hungary to show that these numbers are tied to Hungary as a country, but on the other hand this article is called "Magyars", so I don't know... Juro 22:09, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand this new sentence from the anonymous contributor. What's this? Zello 15:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I deleted these chart with obviously incorrect data: there isn't any country like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia today, there isn't 200 000 Magyars in Russia (probably it was a mistake for Ukraine) and I think it's not a good idea to make such estimations about Magyars in the US or Canada where assimilation is very fast. Zello 08:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not kidding, you must update your chart because it's out of date and incorrect. Zello 20:43, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Good job on updating my estimates. I had my total estimation pretty close though. Anyway, do you like the image or would you want me to make a new one? ..
For me it's OK. But if you make longer contributions, register a user name because man sees anonymous editors with mistrust. Zello 19:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
It is a debated issue, but to give a complete picture I think it is worth adding Alinei and Krantz, since their work is peer-reviewed scholarly work, and it is not likely that they have a pro-Hungarian nationalist bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.27.161.101 ( talk • contribs) 16:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC).
There is a page about Hungarian prehistory where you should mention this kind of speculations. But THIS page about the Magyars contains only facts and widely accepted scientific theories. Zello 21:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Facts in history? Sorry, but in that subject everything is more or less speculation, in particular if it happened thousand or thousands of years ago. The problem with the Hungarian Pre-History page is that it seems to be the page of a single person's opinion, moreover it includes non peer-reviewed and unscientific speculation. Thus Alinei and Krantz do not belong there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.27.161.101 ( talk • contribs) 10:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC).
To 129.27.161.101 - Read WP:NOR and you'll see that this doesn't belong here. Besides, think about all the non-experts who will click on a link saying Hungarian somewhere. This sure is not the kind of info they will want to know. (BTW you can, and should, sign your posts using four tildes, like this: ~~~~.) Kiss L 10:21, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to develop Hungarian prehistory page a place where every "alternative" theory about the origin of the Magyars is collected and reviewed. Of course everything about the ancient period is more or less speculation but here it's better to stick to the "official" thesis. Zello 11:05, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Dear KissL
Forgive my harsh judgment, but I think your reasoning is somewhat flawed. The work of Krantz and Alinei are not original research in the sense it is described in WP:NOR. Alinei is an established linguist whose celebrated continuity theory is considered fundamental. The late Krantz was an established anthropologist, who was considered an expert on human evolution, and while his "bigfoot" material received much media attention (due to its sensational nature), his expertise in his own field was never questioned, not to mention that even in the bigfoot case (not entirely his field) he was never disproven. Furthermore the article gives space to the Sumerian theory (which sounds like it may be original research) without citation, whereas I have given Krantz's book and Alinei's as the citation. The non-experts should be aware that there is a debate, and I think as long as it is only mentioned but the main emphasis is not placed on them it is not in any way misleading. More misleading is to place Sumerian and other theories without citation, dismiss them also without citation and exclude the theories (even if somewhat marginal) which were proposed by respected experts in various fields. Your claim about redundance is somewhat questionable as well...
It is also notable the Alinei is often referred to by Slavic historians since his continuity theory refutes the notion of Slavic presence in Europe only agter the 6th century. While Alinei is not cited on the page describing Slavic peoples it appears that it is his theories that are presented there, so there is really no reason to exclude them from here either. But I guess the idea is that Slavs are OK, Magyars should be excluded whenever possible. It would be great if Eastern Europe grew up!
Thank you for the suggestion regarding the signature. I do not have an account yet...
Dear Zello,
There is a problem with alternative theories mixed with alternative theories. While I do not want to exclude work not necessarily ratified by the experts, but there may be reasons for not grouping together something like Alinei or Krantz with the work of fringe nationalists.
Februus
129.27.161.101
11:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
For me both theories seems to be wild enough and none of them is new. Etruscan-Hungarian relationship was a popular idea in the 2 half of the 19 century. There are a lot of authors who propagates that Magyars inhabited the Carpathian Basin even in the Stone Age. It's interesting that there are non-Hungarian followers of this speculation but this is simply out of the normal scholarly discussion. Zello 14:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
The two theories are somewhat "wild". But the funny thing is in the article some "wild" theories are mentioned, without citation and discredited without citation. Balazs 21:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
The article is about the Magyars and not about the origin of the Magyars. I don't think we should discuss alternative theories in this article. But for me it is OK to mention Etruscans and Stone Age-inhabitants together with the others in the list. Zello 21:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the version of Codex Sinaiticus is reflecting the old thesis of public law about the Kingdom of Hungary. According to that the KoH was an independent state even under the Habsburg rule wich was only a personal but not a real union. Of course the sphere of authority of the King was very large so de facto it was a real union but not de jure. This thesis was a bit corrupted by the Pragmatica Sanctio, strengthened in 1792, and even more corrupted by the Ausgleich but was never gave up by the prominent statesmen of Hungary (including Deák) and the Hungarian Parliament. So after 1920 nothing happened but the King has lost his rights, the country became totally independent again, and - of course - two-thirds of its territory was lost. Zello 03:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I know, this is an interesting topic. The main point here is that this is an article about Magyars (not about the Kingdom of Hungary), where such things are out of place, and Codex S.' version was simply misleading in that it seemed to imply that the Kingdom of Hungary somehow completely ceased to exist in 1526/1700/1867 (?), which is not the case. It is quite normal to speak of a Kingdom of Hungary up to 1918 both at that time and in present history texts and it is completely common in the history of other countries to keep the designation XY kingdom even when there are personal and other unions. And what happened after 1920 was not part of the edit, as I have understood it. Juro 04:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes you are absolutely right, I think all three of us speaks about the same :) As I understood, the expression of "came back into being" applies to the INDEPENDENT KoH, not the KoH in all. But you are right it is really misleading a bit Zello 13:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I found this image in the Varangians article. Maybe somebody could help the writers of that article and tell them exactly where Magyars should be in the map. It would be interesting to clarify the connections between Magyars and Varangians (Vikings) anyway, because they were neighbours for a certain period of time. -- KIDB 14:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
the mazar languane were used: avaria, khazaria, sarmatia.
I know that "Magyar" is the native form, while "Hungarian" is an exonym, but in English "Hungarian" is much more used:
Google search: (excluding wikipedia hits)
Google books:
Our Wikipedia policy is to put the page in the most commonly used English name, which would be in this case "Hungarians". Any thoughts about this? bogdan 14:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh my..., first, you should NEVER use google tests, secondly , Hungarian means "referring to Hungary" or to "Magyars", while Magyars only means referring to "Magyars". And this is a text about Magyars. Juro 17:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Juro, if I change "Magyars" to "Hungarians" in the search that you just linked and it gave almost 3 times as many hits: 38600 vs. 13500.
I'm a Hungarian living in an English speaking country BTW. :)
I strongly support Bogdan's suggestion. -- nyenyec ☎ 19:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
You have not read what I have written above. Once again: Point ione: EXPERT texts use Magyar, Point two: How do you know that Hungarians always refers to ethnicity?...But do what you want, I see any expertise is useless here. Juro 19:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
BTW this has nothing to do with whether you are Hungarian or not, but with whether you have ever read an expert text on this topic. No true expert would ever use Hungarian, because it is ambiguous. Juro 19:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I recently purchased a book called "The Hungarians: A Thousand Years of Victory in Defeat". Would this qualify as an "expert text"? I support Bogdan's suggestion too. If an American were to go to a library and want information about Magyars they would look under "H" for Hungarians. No non-expert would ever think to look up "Magyar". An encyclopedia is supposed to serve non-experts, no? But at the same time, it seems silly to be arguing semantics. Wouldn't it be good enough to simply have a redirect? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 21:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
In our context, expert text means a text dealing with ethnic groups (just like this one). The title you are citing clearly has other objectives (as its wording shows). Actually, I should find some quotes now, but since I see it is useless in the long run, I won't. I have described the reasons. Google wins :) Let's hope, nuclear power plants do not start to explode one day, because the operators start to behave according to what google says :)). Juro 00:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Just to be clear on this issue, the term "Hungarian" means "anybody living in Hungary." Especially before 1918, there were many, many, many Hungarians who were not Magyars - more than half the population of Hungary, in fact. These included Germans, Jews (although some Jews and Germans had, during the 19th century, begun identifying themselves as Magyars), Slovaks, Croats, Ruthenes, Romanians, and Serbs. The issue has been somewhat obscured by the fact that present-day Hungary is fairly uniformly Magyar in ethnicity (although, should we describe Magyars in Romania as Hungarian?). But it is still a significant enough reason to keep this article at Magyars. john k 01:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
It seems that...
Britannica uses both:
Encarta uses Magyars:
-- nyenyec ☎ 17:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Are there really 10,000 Magyars in Israel? If Magyar is to be read as an ethnic group, shouldn't it exclude Hungarian Jews, who were ethnically distinct? I know that many Hungarian Jews in the late 19th century assimilated and came to identify themselves as Magyars, but it's hard to see as those that subsequently left Hungary and settled in Israel would still so consider themselves. Or is there a large community of non-Jewish Magyars in Israel? john k 02:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Have a look at www.ethnologue.com[ [3]]. According to this source, there are some 70.000 people in Israel speaking Hungarian. This may be an exaggerated number, but I can imagine there are 10.000 people in Israel considering themselves Hungarian (Magyar). -- KIDB 13:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Some of them consider, some of them not; obviously. Gubbubu 17:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
What is this nonesense, I am an Israeli of half "hungarian" jewish origin, I don't think "hungarian" jews here consider themselves or really are genetically Hungarians/Magyars.. they/we are just Jewish of that region just like other Jewish people of other regions. User:Yaron Livne 03:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I created an independent article for Hungarian animals and gave only a link here. The topic is interesting of course but it is really weird to read about animals here where we speak generally about Hungarian people. And not only weird, indeed it is insulting (even I know this wasn't your intention!). Simply: I'm not an animal :) Zello 15:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
The Finno-Ugric languages are a very well-attested group of languages, as is the classification of Hungarian as of the Ugric subgroup of that family. Why does the article address this so tentavely as if it were controversial? Among linguists it is not controversial at all; no more contraversial than the fact that French is descended from Latin.-- Rob117 04:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I think theory is a neutral word - there were a lot of linguistic debates in the 19-20th centuries about the origin of the Magyars and the Finno-Ugric theory was the most convincing among then. Even though the topic remained very controversial not like the origin of French, and the article shows this. Zello 07:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think (too) that the classification of hungarian language would be well-attested. the word "Theory" is applicable and neutral. Among linguists the origin of hungarians and related theories (e.g. the Theory of Finno-Ugric Ancient Home) is more than disputed (this theory, for example, disputed even among finno-ugrist linguists). Gubbubu
One must also consider that just because a people speak a language, it doesn;t mean that they are that ethnicity. Ie the majority of today;s Hungarian's are probably descendents from slavs , dacians and , less so, Bulgars that lived in Pannonia. The Magyar language was imposed by the Magyars who were probably a numerically inferior ruling core. Hxseek 123.243.240.160 12:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I didn`t imply anything, I gaved sources... what else do you want? Greier 14:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Daco-Romanian theory is very much a question of controversy not only between Romanian and Hungarian historians but among the international scientific community. There are wikipedia articles where you can follow the arguments and counterarguments of both side. The reader should look up the Origin of Romanians article which quite a good one and even contains your sources! The version I proposed doesn't claim that Daco-Romanian theory is false. If something is controversial than wikipedia mentions controversiality as a rule of NPOV. Zello 15:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Your sources are controversial. See wikipedia about Gesta Hungarorum. As you certainly know opponents of Daco-Romanian continuity deny the existence of Romanized people in the Carpathian Basin after the 6. century until the arrival of Romanians in the 12. century. Any claim that Romanized people lived there between this dates is the Daco-Romanian theory itself. It's a basic rule of NPOV that you can't present controversial things as generally accepted facts. Zello 01:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Something I don`t agree with: and especially the various nations (Germans, Slovaks, Romanians, Serbs, Croats and others), invited to resettle the depopulated territories after the departure of the Turks in the 18th century. First of all, there wasn`t ever such a "invitation", and secondly, the romanian element in the creation on modern hungarian nation spead for centuries, from the 11th century, well into the 21th (I say 21th because in Trasylvania there are still hungarian speaking people, with hungarian names, but with orthodox confesion, and calling themselves romanians. Most probably, decades from now they will be "hungarians". In the article I put 18th century, to prevent any controversies). It is a way too complex event (e.g.: the self-magyarisation of romanians to beneficiate (enjoy) better privileges, forced magyarisation, etc) to be mentioned in the article (plus that there already a link to magyarisation, where such things could be better expressed).
Anyway, I see no reason for you to keep editing the article, except to present vague and/or subjective info. For that, I ask that maybe there`s someone in charge here to settle this thig out, and explain what`s wrong with my edits (if there is something wrong with them...) Greier 18:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
1, About Daco-Romanian controversy: if you are able to stick to this version I think it OK and NPOV. But not necessary to mention one-by-one the sources. If the reader is interested in the topic there is the link to the article.
2, You are right that Romanians and Hungarians lived together since the Middle Ages so they mixed up with each other not only in the 18th century but all the time. The same is true for Slovaks so the sentence certainly needs rephrasing. Your present version is unacceptable because it implies that Hungarian minority in Transylvania are only Magyarized Romanians. Co-existing and blending was very much two way street and the ethnic proportions of Transylvania are again a very controversial topic. Zello 19:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
3, If you think that you are not able cooperate with me than you should request the community for comment about the article/my person (RfC). Look up the Tutorial about how these things work! Zello 19:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
At the Hungarian conquest, the Hungarian nation numbered between 250,000 and 450,000 people. Any reliable sources for these numbers? Greier 18:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
A very official source: http://www.magyarorszag.hu/angol/orszaginfo/tortenelem/tortenelem - about 500 000 Zello 23:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Are you serious? It`s very "official" and really scientific... Greier 17:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The official homepage of the Hungarian Government. Historical section written by László Kontler, Professor of History in the University of Budapest. Zello 17:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
László Kontler is a well known right wing nationalist and the Faculty of History at the University of Budapest is the place where graduated abb. 1/4 of the leadership members of the far right extremists groups in Hungary. The source is of course official, but nevertheless racist and nationalistic ! Not a serious historian outside Hungary would agree with estimations above 75.000 regarding the size of the Hungarian tribes at the time of the conquest (9th century AD) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 ( talk) 05:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
"Cumanians, Pechenegs, Jazones, Germans and other Western-European settlers" "Turks" etc.. Tatars and Russians not even mentioned.
Yes, you are absolutely right. Only we don't have any data... Zello 14:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Conclusion: "Due to all these influences Magyars became genetically more or less similar to the inhabitants of the states neighbouring Hungary."
This doensn't sound too scientific to me. If we are talking about genetic similarities, we should be using results from scientific research. --
KIDB
12:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
There was a debate about the question on Hungarian prehistory talkpage in the recent past. There a guy brought datas of some scientific research to prove his claim. I have serious doubts but I'm not an expert in genetics. Here I only tried to take the edge of the original - certainly exaggerated - sentence until somebody do some research. Zello 12:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this needed? Sounds funny. You know, there's a trend to nationalize ethnic hungarians in the surrounding countries of nowadays Hungary, by creating false sources and/or simply declare him/her as an ethnic local despite the facts - this sentence seems as a semi-nationalization of all the hungarian people. Really funny, altough it is true, but you know, then we could write this to any ethnic groups because mixed relations (forced or not) happened everywhere. The surrounding people became gnetically more or less similar to their neighbours, and they to their neighbours etc. etc. also. -- VinceB 20:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, this happened everywhere and certainly other peoples should write about their genetical history also. If they don't write that's not our problem. The section contains a lot of info and you said yourself that they are true. Zello 02:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Wasn't there a genetic study done on a number of Hungarian groups a while back, which included the Paloc, Csangos, the Budapest population among others, and which compared them to a number of groups-Turks, Finns, Slavs, Germans, Iranians?
KVLG (
talk)
06:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't think that is a good category. To say that there is an "Ugric People" is to reiterate an outdated and false assumption regarding a connection between linguistics and ethnicity. You know, the one that commonly gets repeated by anti-Finno-Ugricists who pretend that proponents of the Finno-Ugric theory are arguing for a common people when it is only and ever will be a linguistic theory. Its like calling Americans a Germanic people because the language, English, is classified as Germanic. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 14:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Probably a better category name would be something like "Ugric-speaking peoples". I have the same disagreement with the "Finnic peoples" category too. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this research only proves that blood types don't show anything about the origin of peoples. There was certaninly no mixing between Serbs and Spaniards or between Magyars and Greeks. I propose to delete - not because I'm against the claim that Magyars and neighbouring peoples are genetically similar but because this research didn't prove this. Zello 10:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Apparently, this issue has been extensively debated at [6] so I guess you might want to check the discussion and the research cited there.
The article states that there are around 9.5 million Magyars in Hungary and cites the 2001 census as a source. In the table a precise figure of 9,416,015 is given. However, this figure is actually the number of Hungarian citizens (resident in Hungary at the time of the census) who described themselves as Magyar in the census. A further 546,315 "did not wish to answer". Almost certainly some of the latter are also Magyar. Further complicating the picture is the (estimated) several hundred thousand Roma in Hungary some of whom may have described themselves as Magyar, others as Roma, and others refused to answer. My point is that the precise figure cited in the table cannot be deduced from the census data. Other sources giving estimates of the Magyar population should be used.
The table claims that "more than half of Hungarians are Roman Catholic". This claim is unsourced and confusing (because it refers to Hungarians rather than Magyars. I would strongly contest this figure. I believe it is taken from census data for Hungary. Thus it refers to Hungarian citizens and not ethnic Hungarians (ie Magyars). In other words, it includes the Roma minority (which is more strongly Roman Catholic than the Magyar majority). In any case self-indentification as Roman Catholic in a census is not the same as being a practising (or even a lapsed) Roman Catholic. Unless someone can provide a verifiable source for the data, I will remove the percentages. Scott Moore 14:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please don't remove the data. You are right that many of these people are not practising the religion regularly but these are the official census data, based on people's self-identification, and there is no better way to establish their number until the next census will use another method (probably). You can see that the strong majority of Romas identified him/herself as Magyars in the census - there are complicated reasons of this, but - again - better stick to the census data than delete everything or made uncertain calculations. Zello 15:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking, if the opening paragraph in this article says, "In English they are more often called Hungarians", shouldn't this page be moved to Hungarian people? I know the term "Hungarian" in English had a wider meaning, but not anymore. I doubt you'd find many ethnic Romanians who call themselves Hungarians. All inhabitants of the Persian Empire were historically called "Persians", but today that's only the name for ethnic Persians, which account 51% of Iran's population. What do other people think? — Khoikhoi 03:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
A similar point has been discussed already, see Magyars vs. Hungarians above. K issL 14:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
In the previous discussion I tried to explain that for an English-speaker (or at least an American), there is no ambiguity in what Hungarian means. My Magyar relatives never say they are Magyar in English nor do my Slovak relatives (who came from Miskolc) say they are Hungarian in English. Nor will a schoolchild know to look up Magyar for Hungarian ethnic group. Khoikhoi points out that semantics can and do shift. Educate about the semantic shift in the articles, not the titles. I wonder, is Magyar used in other language Wikipedias where the language uses the "Hungar/Ongr" name? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 18:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
We can re-visit it. A vote would maybe attract more opinions and thus give us a clearer view. I personally think that the current title doesn't hurt much – those schoolchildren looking for the Hungarians will end up here in no time –, but Hungarian people or Hungarians would be a better title. I'm not convinced by Juro's assertion that expert texts use the name Magyars, because his opinion may well be biased by the fact that in Slovak, this semantic shift hasn't gone nearly as far as in English. K issL 10:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
See e.g. the links presented in the old discussion and the old discussion, it is even used in non-expert texts. And I repeat for the nth time, this has nothing to do with Slovak. Juro 10:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to Hungarian people. Kirill Lokshin 11:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright then, since there seems to still be enough support for me to do this, here goes:
Magyars → Hungarian people – Simply because in English, the most common term for this ethnic group is "Hungarian", not "Magyar". "Hungarian" once had a wider meaning, but I challenge someone to show me an ethnic Romanian or ethnic Slovak who refers to themselves by this term today. A comparison is that "Persian" used to be the term for all inhabitants of the Persian Empire, but today it refers to a specific ethnic group, with other groups in modern-day Iran ( Azeris, Kurds, Baloch, etc.) calling themselves Iranian, not Persian in order to avoid confusion. — Khoikhoi 17:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Add *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''' followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
"Magyar" in English is archaic and/or academic, a throw back to Greater Hungary. But a move will semantically strand " Magyarization." - AjaxSmack 23:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Alensha, are you being ironic when you type "Hungarians are not the only ethnic group in Hungary." instead of "Magyars are not the only ethnic group in Hungary."? Your usage there sort of emphasizes my argument. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 16:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
What parts of Africa or Asia would have any significant populations of Hungarians? I'd always thought the only Europeans who live in Africa are the British (in South Africa, Zimbabwe), some French (in Morocco), and the Spanish (in the west African islands). In Asia, there are Russians (in Asian Russia, the "-stans", and some in China) and the Portuguese (in Macau). Where are the Hungarians in Africa or Asia? Le Anh-Huy 06:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Few people went to South-Africa in the 1980s, I don't think there is any Hungarian community anywhere else. Zello 20:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This increase was partly due to the fact that non-Magyar population of the Kingdom was subjected to Magyarisation in the period between 1867 (the Ausgleich) and World War I.
"Magyarization" was never forced, just suggested, without --> "" <-- these. It was an answer to Panslavism, wich faned the flames of slavic nationalism. In fact a step against a possible "inland ethnic civil war".
== Later genetic influences ==
Besides the various peoples mentioned above, who mixed with the Magyars during their long way to and at their arrival in Hungary, the Magyars also include a genetic input from other peoples settled in this territory after the arrival of the Magyars, for example the Cumanians, Pechenegs, Jazones, Germans and other Western-European settlers in the Middle Ages. Romanians and Slovaks have lived together and blended with Magyars since early medieval times. Turks who occupied the central part of present-day Hungary from c. 1541 to c. 1699 and especially the various nations ( Germans, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats and others), that settled depopulated territories after the departure of the Turks in the 18th century all added their important contribution in composing the modern Hungarian nation. Both Jewish and Roma (Gypsy) minorities have been living in Hungary since the Middle Ages. Due to all these influences Magyars became genetically more or less similar to the inhabitants of the states neighbouring Hungary.
If it would be true, than the Kingdom of Hungary wouldn't be multiethnic. They lived next to each other in peace. Mainly. -- VinceB 13:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Abt 1.5 million ppl migrated from the KoH before WWI, nearly all were minorities.
It has an other reading also: the neighbours became similar to hungarians by genetics, because of mixed marriages, wich is not shown. Quite one sided this is, and I've never ever read such a ridiculous paragraph. Genetcally everybody (you and me also) 90-97% similar to a chimp also. :) -- VinceB 10:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence about genetics I think quite dubious. I saw different genetical studies and the only thing I accepted as a conclusion that you can prove virtually everything with studies like that and also the opposite one. But the paragraph contains factually correct historical informations and it's sure that Magyars mixed with these people in the course of history. Zello 11:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Zello, please don't put back without a consensus. I got my problems written down here, above. -- VinceB 11:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually there was consensus about the paragraph, and until you can prove that there was no intermarriage between Magyars and other people (that's impossible) the paragraph is factually correct. Zello 11:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Nope, instead of becoming slavic, they became hungarian. -- VinceB 14:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was not moved. Jonathunder 17:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Hungarian people → Hungarians– {This is a mistake, only one hungarian nationality exists.
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
To Septentrionalis – There are some 19,000 Slovaks in today's Hungary (total population is 10 million), and nobody calls them Hungarians. The Roma people (2% in census, with some higher estimates for various reasons) are the only minority in Hungary that is likely to be called Hungarian. K issL ( don't forget to vote!) 07:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
In the subsection History after 900 at some point it is stated that:
In my opinion this formulation, although it presents both theories as it should, it is not NPOV. In this form it implies that some historians from all over the world agree with the first statement, while only some historians from only two countries agree with the second statement. I therefore think that we should either say:
or
Hi Alexrap.
I understand what you're saying: as the article stood before, it DID imply that "some historians from all over the world agree with the first statement, while only some historians from only two countries agree with the second statement." However, I do not believe that this is a matter of POV or NPOV -- it's a matter of whether the implication is true or not. Are you absolutely sure that it is not the case that the 80% theory is widely accepted, and that only some historians dispute it? For that matter, if only Hungarian historians accept the 80% theory and only Romanian and Slovak historians accept the multi-ethnic theory, then what is the widely held view outside of these (biased) circles?
It's unfortunate that the original wording had not sources cited; I'd really like to see some. If none are available, then we should work out a compromise.
Korossyl
00:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Viking (Varangian) neighbours
Already briefly discussed, and edited, was the mention of Norman/Viking/Varangian neighbours of the Magyars. Vikings it is, but that doesn't seem right at all: I. Vikings weren't a people, but a Scandinavian warrior class (raiders, explorers, traders) and the use of that name is commonly restricted to the Norsemen/Normans who raided and invaded Western Europe [ [7]]; II. Varangian is the appropriate term for the Scandinavian enterprises in Eastern Europe [ [8]], but, again, the Varangians aren't a people.
Since the Varangians were the rapidly assimilating ruling class of the Slav peoples of future Russia, I think the phrase 'Vikings and the eastern Slavs' should be changed into something like 'the emerging Varangian (Russian?) nation (state?) and other eastern Slavs' (eastern Slav groups). 24.132.233.114 00:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
An unregistered user changed the number of Hungarians currently living in Hungary from 9,416,015 (in 2001) to 10,061,000 (in 2007), without updating the reference for this number. The reference from the article still says 9,416,015 and the new number does not seem to be based on any source whatsoever. Could someone provide the reference for the new 2007 number? Some days ago, as I couldn't find a new reference, I rewrote the 2001 number (as the only sourced number we have), but User:Öcsi reverted my edit. Öcsi, no, I'm not User:Bonaparte and I really hope that you won't start behaving like him. Alexrap 13:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought you were him because he always reduces the numbers of Hungarians in every article (once he wrote that there oly living 8.5 Million Hungarians in H; maybe in his dreams :). I will change my edit to 9.5-9.6 Million Hungarians, because the official census only counted 9.7 Mio people out of 10.1 Mio living in H. -- Öcsi 23:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
You should buy glasses. I have changed it, but not in the Infobox. Now it's done. Nevertheless, I have changed my edit.-- Öcsi 14:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Because it's 15 Million and the 2001 census didn't recorded everyone (myself included). Do you understand? -- Öcsi 14:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Here you have one: [9]. You can search other ones. But if you can't bring any reference which proves that the 400.000 not registrated Hu citizens aren't Hungarians then your argumentation has no validity too. -- Öcsi 15:20, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
You have obviously not read the census datas. Please read them again. -- Öcsi 15:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you stupid? What's about the section "Didn't want to answer"? -- Öcsi 15:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that we should always use official census numbers for demographic data. It seems to me that Alex is right with the 9,4 million number. Although no census is perfect and there were certainly mistakes we don't have any better source. Zello 17:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I want to know what exactly is depicted in the image at right and the year of the scene depicted. Specifically, I want to know if one of the kings pictured is supposed to be Berengar I of Italy, the first west European ruler to meet the invading Magyars (and be defeated by them). I am expanding that article and am looking for a usable image to spruce it up. Srnec 05:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with the Turkic people view: area of origin in the central asian steppes, fighting style based on horsback riding and reflex bogen arches, Pannonia's as area of European settlement rapresenting the most western extension of the Eurasian steppes continuum with its "Puszta",... all these points have been mentioned before, I would like to add one more point that may help explain the ethimology of the name Hungarian. Has anybody considered a link with the Uyghur people of central Asia? The cultural description would match quite easily http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people The ancestors of the Uyghur include the Huns (燻). ... the Uyghur emerged as the leaders of a new turkic coalition force called the "Toquz Oghuz". In 744 A.D. the Uyghur, together with other related subject tribes (the Basmyl and Qarluq), defeated the Göktürk Khanate and founded the Uyghur Empire at Mount Ötüken, which lasted for about 100 years (744-840 A.D.). [edit] Uyghur Empire: the golden age (744-840 A.D.) Properly called the On-Uyghur (ten Uyghurs) and Toquz-Oghuz (nine tribes) Orkhon Khanate, the Uyghur Empire stretched from the Caspian Sea[citation needed] to Manchuria and lasted from 744 to 840 A.D..
From Uy-gur, to Un-gurs, to Un-gars, to Hun-gars the steps are really very small. Has any one analyzed this possibility? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papidi ( talk • contribs) 07:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Are they a Turkic people? The Magyar horse riding skills makes me think so, but I don't know for sure Tourskin 23:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
"it is easier and faster for a Turkic-speaking and/or Iranic-speaking elite to change over to the Ugric of the majority than it is for the minority speakers to influence the majority."
Why is that? This sort of language shift driven by a small elite of new rulers happened in the much larger Turkey (and in Azerbaidjan) in the course of - at the most - just one or two centuries.
I was under the impression that Ugric-speaking people were always on the western side of the Urals while this article states that the earliest Finno-Ugric settlements were on the eastern side. As far as I know from Russian history, Ob-Ugrics were pushed to the eastern side only after confrontation with the growing Russian empire. Taking a look at the Finno-Ugric languages article I see no mention about the eastern side. Someone want to clarify? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 17:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
The whole regional population "map" is all screwed up. You have western countries (Germany) listed under eastern, and eastern not listed under eastern (serbia, romania etc.). You also have Turkey listed under Africa instead of Eurasia. I would reorganize all these myself, but being a bit of a newbie to Wiki editing, I took one look at the way it's organized on the editing page, and was lost lol. JanderVK
The first sentence of the lead says. " Hungarians (Hungarian: Magyarok) or Magyars[11] are an ethnic group primarily associated with Hungary." The infobox uses Hungarians (Magyarok), so all the main article concent uses the term "Hungarians", while the article uses Hungarian people. This looks extremely silly, that even the bolded intro in the lead won't match the title, one or the other should be changed so they at least match and consistent within the most important parts of the article (title, lead, infobox). Hobartimus 16:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to be edited by someone with a native or near-native level of English. For a start, I suggest correcting the introductory section as follows:
"Magyars have been the main inhabitants of the Kingdom of Hungary that existed through most of the second millennium. After the Treaty of Trianon Magyars have become minority inhabitants on the territory of..." changed to "Magyars were the main inhabitants of the Kingdom of Hungary that existed through most of the second millennium. After the Treaty of Trianon, Magyars became minority inhabitants on the territory of..."
"but unlike the Magyars living within the former Kingdom of Hungary, only a minority of these preserves the Hungarian language and tradition." changed to "but, unlike the Magyars living in areas that were formerly part of the Kingdom of Hungary, only a minority of these retains the Hungarian language and traditions" "There was a referendum in Hungary in December 2004 on whether to grant Hungarian citizenship to Magyars living outside Hungary's borders (i.e. without requiring a permanent residence in Hungary). The referendum failed due to the insufficient voter turnout, and caused some recruitment of the local nationalist movements and parties in the surrounding countries." Well, this is so poorly written, that it is not fully comprehensible. Indeed, I do not see the justification for placing this text in the introduction; it refers to a failed referendum that was of minor political import. I suggest removing or, at the very least, changing to: "Hungary held a referendum in December 2004 on whether to grant Hungarian citizenship to Magyars living outside Hungary's borders. The referendum failed due to the insufficient voter turnout." I have already removed the gibberish about recruitment (possibly the author meant 'resentment'). Scott Moore 12:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the numbers in the Infobox. I have good reason to do it, this is not some nationalistic blowing up numbers. Here comes the reasoning:
I am using the same census data as used before: which was used as a reference to the old numbers, however note, that in the 2001 data there are two entries "Did not wish to answer" and "Unknown" amounting together for 570,537 counts.
It is safe an prudent to assume, that of those the same ratio is ethnic Hungarian, as is (a) the ratio of them among the declared ethnicities; In fact, of course, it could happen, that a certain minority does not declare more often, than ethnic Hungarians, however, whether it's this way or not can be verified well by (b) the ratio of ethnic Hungarians of the 1990 data (which did not have those categories, so everyone had to declare. Actually, it's methodologically more correct to use the 1990 ratio, but I am going to use the smaller ratio to be diligent, so that by no means can anyone claim I'm blowing up numbers:
Let H the number of declared ethnic Hungarians in 2001, so H = 9,416,045.
Let U the number of "Unknown" and "Did not answer", then U = 570,537.
Let R_2001 the ratio of ethnic Hungarians within the declared ethnicities, then R_2001 = 9,416,045 / 9,734,436 = 96.73%.
Let R_1990 the ratio of ethnic Hungarians within the inhabitants of Hungary, then R_1990 = 10,142,072 / 10,374,823 = 97.94%.
Then HA, the number more close to the actual number of ethnic Hungarians in Hungary according to the 2001 census data is HA = H + min{R_2001 * U, R_1990 * U} = 9,416,045 + min{551,876; 558,795} = 9,967,921.
I do believe, that noone can fight these numbers, but I'm open for discussion. Please do not revert them without discussion!
Szabi
17:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Hungary 9,967,921 (2001)
please look at hungary article for 2007 count. Mallerd 17:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I wonder that there is no picture of Ferenc Puskas at the top of the infobox. He is that symbol for hungarian football. -- 89.182.130.134 17:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this article could be improved by having more written about the Hungarian subgroups. The Szekely are mentioned somewhat in passing, the Jasz and Csango only in the 'See also' section, and nothing about the Paloc, Matyo, and őrs (which I saw in some anthropological study once mentioning the highest incidence of "original" Magyar DNA existed amongst them. Like http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&list_uids=8935316&cmd=Retrieve&indexed=google I think). -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 01:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Hungarian prehistory is being fixed up so it is no longer a POV fork. I noticed, in reviewing the "mainstream" Finno-Ugric theory presented in this article, that what is written is just as bad as the POV fork. It claims things like a Western Siberian/East of the Urals urheimat for Finno-Ugric without citation when "mainstream" Finno-Ugricists would say it was on the western side of the Urals. This page will need a lot of fixing up as well. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 23:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
This statement contradicts Finno-Ugric languages. Is this claim based upon Russian archeology?
During the fourth millennium BC, some of the earliest settlements of the Finno-Ugric-speaking peoples were situated east of the Ural Mountains, where they hunted and fished.
This statement also needs sourcing. I'm assuming the intent here is to talk about the ancient Iranic influence upon the Magyar language. If so, it is not difficult to find a source, but I'm pretty sure no one knows which Iranic group was the influence so who is saying it was Sarmatians?
During the following centuries, the proto-Magyars continued to live in the wood-steppes and steppes southeast of the Ural Mountains, strongly influenced by their immediate neighbours, the ancient Sarmatians.
-- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 23:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Who says this? The Middle-Volga region is regarded as the Finno-Ugric language urheimat. Why would Magyars have to have moved there?
In the fourth and fifth centuries AD, the proto-Magyars moved to the west of the Ural Mountains to the area between the southern Ural Mountains and the Volga River known as Bashkiria (Bashkortostan).
Only Constantine wrote about Levedia and he didn't put it between the Volga, Don, and Donets...
In the early eighth century, some of the proto-Magyars moved to the Don River to an area between the Volga, Don and the Seversky Donets rivers called Levedia.
-- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 23:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Is really Mathias Corvinus an ethnic Hungarian ? How can you put him there ? He was half Romanian, half Hungarian, it is all known. More, by paternal side, which one can say it's most important, he was Romanian. So, at least it is not its place here, where you must put the most representative ethnic Hungarians ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madalinfocsa ( talk • contribs) 12:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
What He think about himself? Mathias rex Hungarorom how interpreted about his family root? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.89.212.202 ( talk) 12:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what the numbers in the infobox refer to (no citations), but it seems they're about Hungary itself, which is misleading - not all Hungarian citizens are Magyars (arguably Hungarian Jews, for instance), and certainly not all Hungarians live in Hungary. Better to put something like "Roman Catholic, Protestant (mainly Reformed, Lutheran, Unitarian), Unaffiliated". Biruitorul ( talk) 22:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Whilst the intro is good, it is a little confusing. It states that On-ogur derives means ten tribes. Did this stem from the Western Gokturk khanate, the Khazar khanate or the 10 Magyar tribes ? Hxseek ( talk) 04:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Wikinist is hellbent on changing the wording of 'the most widely-accepted theory [of a common Finno-Ugric origin' to 'the traditional theory'. While his source contesting the theory should be given space in the article, I think the wording he is sticking to makes the academically most universally accepted origin theory appear unlikely. I think 'most widely-accepted' should stay. I'd like to ask the input of third parties on this one. Caius ( talk) 07:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The article contradicts itself. Lets see:
1: Finno-Ugric peoples have (present tense, so currently) a common origin. Origin means by default the origin of population.
=> Modern Finno-Ugric peoples are genetically alike.
=> There is a genetical continuity between the present F-U speakers and those who brought the language.
However, the article also says "Modern Hungarian-speaking populations seem to be specifically European, and the results demonstrate that significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and recent Hungarian-speaking populations, and no genetic continuity is seen."
The upper claim is a historical view, based on a belief that language always tells about ancerstors. The latter is of an actual science. If origin of language is meant, it should be told. While the Finno-Ugric languages have obviously common roots, the common origin of populations speaking F-U languages is pseudoscientist. But you are of course not meaning this, so maybe you should clarify the article?
Wikinist ( talk) 22:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Could you please start to use original correct Latinized Hanti (hard H) instead of wrong Russian origin cyrillic Khanti. Based to cyrillic X. Thank you. By the way, Obi Ugrians means Great River (Obi) Ugris. Unkarilaiset (Hungarians) lived on the other side (ie. western) of Urali. Pääbo: Uirala / Uirali. For more detailed early history published in Finland: Eero Kuussaari; Suomen Suvun Tiet, Helsinki 1935. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.204.159 ( talk) 18:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
An old fried of mine now at age 85, living at Bets, Auszria (Wien, Austria) and ethnic Deutch (German) who have friends also (as I do) in Budapest (Buda-Pesti), Unkari (Magyarorszák), have many times told when visiting here in Helsinki while having a coffee during summer in open air restarants; "If I close my eyes and just listen to how people are speaking I can be as well in Budapest or Helsinki. Of course the Hungarian language is little softer and uses zs but basicly the tempo of speech is exactly the same.
I personally can at ones hear who speaks Hungarian in one listening. I remember while in Spain just north of Barcelona during summer prior the Barcelona Olympic Games a group arrived to same hotel where I stayed. We talked Finnish at swimming pool when an old Gentleman with his Panama hat sat on next table and said at ones in Deutsh: You are Finnish and I am your cousin from Ungvari in Upper Hungary. I was born to Magyar parents in Dual Monarchy in 1916, become citizen of Chechoslovakia in 1918, then for one day I was in 1939 citizen of Karpatho Rutenia, went to sleep and wake up next morning to be on March 16, 1939 a citizen of Kiralyi Hungary again. In October 1944 I become citizen of Czechoslovakia again, but in 1945, when Carpathian Ruthenia was ceded by Czechoslovakia, I become a citizen of Soviet Ukraina in Soviet Union as I am today travelling with Hungarian Passport. But I will sooner or later, the sooner the better, be a citizen of independent Ukraina but it does not disturb me at all. States come and goes, but Ungvar is and remains by soul an old Hungarian (Alte Hungarische) town.
The lot talked Sumeri connection is also known in Finnish history by name Persian connection. This means a number of loan words of indo-european origin from Middle East to both languages. In fact, nobody can say is the connection to Sumeri language or to ancient Bactria but it existed. One typical Finnish saying is; Etelän miehet (Southern men) and many others like etana, sata, porsas, raha, Sumeria (place name) etc, still in every day use. Compare with Mordvin Sura, Sumerlja etc.
Please also note; the origin of Lactose intolerance (37 per cent) carried by Hungarians has been located in 2005 by Finland´s Academia Professor Leena Palotie to slopes in Southern Urali, today´s Boshkortostan. This genetic mutation appears to have originated during period 4.600 - 2.800 BC. The Finnish tribes Udmurts, and Mordvians carry also the same genetic mutation in even larger extend than the Hungarians.
By the way, what about the Finno Ugrian emigration from Oka area (Mordvin tribes) to Phennonia (Pannonia) and Erdely / Vanaati in c. 200 BC to 150 AD?.
I cannot understand why many indo-europeans want to make Unuguris an indo-european people, as well as some have recently been tried to make also Finnish origin dispused. A certain element of Hungarian soul carries this Finno Ugrian geene in thinking and acting, not the indo-european one. Peharps the best experts in this subject are those who have not Uniguri roots. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.204.159 ( talk) 20:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I removed the added genetic section to the article because it looked like a cut and paste from one of the articles on Dienekes' anthropology blog. There's some good recent studies there on Hungarian and ancient Hungarian DNA. If anyone wants to improve this article, cruise over to http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search/label/Hungarians and check it out. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 16:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it beliveable? Not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celebration1981 ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I have also read that the name Magyar is derived from the Slavic word medja (border)> medjar (a person [living] on the border) or medju (inbetween) both acceptable if you look at Hungary's geography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.78.64.105 ( talk) 00:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
LOL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.209.244.184 ( talk) 20:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
MagyarTürk, can you please stop playing with numbers, it doesn't even make sense what you say, we need to use official census data, the official census data in Romania says, per source that there are 1434377 Hungarians and 1370 Csángós/Ceangai, this is clear and official Romanian census, no possibility of confusion, this is how people declared themselves in Romania.
Your source which seems highly unreliable (and I will show you why) says that Hungarians = 1,431,807 (2002)[1] or 1,671,845[2] (with Csángós) That would mean that there are 240,047 Csángós, however on the same site it says that there at around 70,000 Csángós of which most of them declare themselves Hungarian. How can you account for an increase from 70,000 to 240,047 in the number of Csángós? -- this is a mark of high unreliability.
Regardless of that number, in Romania only 1,370 people declared themselves Csángós, the rest presumable declared themselves Hungarians or something else, counting them again it would be double-counting. Why do we have to discuss this? And please stop reverting well sourced data with your original research, and please mind WP:3RR. man with one red shoe 01:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I've said this before about a year ago, and I'll say it again. The infobox numbers refer to the 2001 Hungary census and are thus misleading: not all Hungarian citizens are Magyars (arguably Hungarian Jews, for instance), and certainly not all Hungarians live in Hungary. For instance in Romania, there are large numbers (not sure about exact %) of Roman Catholics and Reformed, a small Unitarian community, and almost no unaffiliated: a distinctly different picture from Hungary. We'd do better by putting something like "Roman Catholic, Protestant (mainly Reformed, Lutheran, Unitarian), Unaffiliated". - Biruitorul Talk 17:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Why was the information about Madjars removed? That's not a fringe theory. It's new and I haven't seen any outright rejection of it. See also [10] -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 14:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Take the time to look at the actual source published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology then: [11] -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 17:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Look hair color and eye color anthropology maps. Type in google image searcher: "hair color map" or type: "eye color map". Compare the Hungarian Serbian and Romanian pigmentations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celebration1981 ( talk • contribs) 19:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I mean I have some problem with the word "Magyars". If we refer to Hungarians in an English context, we shall call them (us) "Hungrians". As we call Englishmen "angolok" in a Hungarian context and not "English emberek" neither "az English-ek". It is irritating and I think grammatically incorrect. A text should be consequent on which language it's using. And if there is a corresponding word to translate to, I don't see why make up one (Magyars instead of Hungarians). Velag ( talk) 19:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
An IP has deleted the following entire text section : Besides the various peoples mentioned above, the Magyars assimilated or were influenced by subsequent peoples arriving in the Carpathian Basin. Among these are the Cumanians, Pechenegs, Jazones, Germans and other Western European settlers in the Middle Ages. Romanians and Slovaks have lived together and blended with Magyars since early medieval times. Ottomans, who occupied the central part of present-day Hungary from c.1541 until c.1699, inevitably exerted an influence, as did the various nations ( Germans, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats and others) that resettled depopulated territories after their departure. The advanced economic and political conditions of the Slavs, who had preceded the Magyars' arrival but continued to migrate thereafter, and those of the Germans exerted a significant influence; many Hungarian words relating to agriculture, politics, religion and handicrafts were borrowed from Slavic languages. Similar to other European countries, both Jewish and Roma (Gypsy) minorities have been living in Hungary since the Middle Ages. The deletion entailed no reaction. It is interesting to see again and again, what has become possible in the English wikipedia. Hiohiohio5 ( talk) 21:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Why does the article not speak about genetical biological reality instead of linguist and other obsolete tales? The conquering Hungarian tribes gave 5-10% of the entire population of early Hungary. According to genetics, the conqueror Hungarian tribes (and the later foreign western solfdiers) gave the ruling elite of medieval Hungary. More and more western historians think, that the conqueror tribes had foreign (non-Hungarian) turkic languages which was disappeared by time. Present-day Hungarian language is not based on the original language of conqueror tribes
The section talking about the "reduction" of percentage of Magyars in Kingdom of Hungary, I quote: In the 18th century their percentage declined further because of the influx of new settlers from Europe, especially Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, and Germans.
Sorry about that, but you -Hammer of Habsburg- absolutely do not know the history of Hungary,or history of Magyars.
Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep ten threads.-- Oneiros ( talk) 00:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Captions for images go before or after the image, not both. The eight headshots in this image should be stored and marked up separately, to preserve meaning and context; not glued together and surrounded with words like some kind of mandatory school assignment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.126.76.253 ( talk) 07:53, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
How can Croatia, located very much western of the Hungary's south be listed as south-east Europe and at the same time Hungary, far east of Croatia be central Europe? Or am I that bad in geography? Hammer of Habsburg ( talk) 00:26, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
The external link/reference - arpad.org - does not conform with what is generally accepted by mainstream historians about the origins of the Magyars - seems to be some lunatic-fringe based nationalistic site. Magyars began in Mesopotamia, eh? And Sumerians are closely related to them? Sure - how could we have missed this "fact" over the centuries? I propose this be removed - any objections? HammerFilmFan ( talk) 05:27, 6 October 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFan
I have added new informations about Hungarian genetic researches. It would be great if somebody contributed more informations about this theme. Those researches can give us very new point of views. Fakirbakir ( talk) 11:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC) These facts are from Hungarian Academy of Sciences, reliable sources. I hope this research, treatise will be published in English as well, (or it is existing, just I do not know) Fakirbakir ( talk) 15:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
There is a sentence refering to a Science article from 2000 but not proper reference is given. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
150.227.15.253 (
talk)
08:51, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Should there be a note on how to pronounce this? When I was in Hungary, I learned it was pronounced with a soft g (ie,"Mah-jyar". Yet it seems to be common for people to mispronounce it with a hard G as "Mag-Yar" 216.116.87.110 ( talk) 18:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Hungarians speak Finno-Ugric language, Hungarians are 'partly-mostly' a Finno-Ugric population however we can not disregard the Turkic connections. Hungarian and Non-Hungarian academic works are existed about that. Please stop deleting months of work. Fakirbakir ( talk) 07:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
---
in addition, who added a sentence certain like this without a refferance;
"Although the name of the modern-day Hungarian people is based on Turkic roots, the Hungarians themselves are actually not related to the Turkic peoples," -- 78.174.115.93 ( talk) 14:20, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
If not how can you deny the place of the Magyars in our racial ancestry? 71.212.214.163 ( talk) 06:47, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
If you read the article nobody states this. Actually, the page demonstrates that the ancient Hungarians had mostly Europid characters (Turanid, East-baltic). (Pal Liptak) Fakirbakir ( talk) 11:29, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Slavic people and present-day Romanians contains average higher ratio of east-Asian (aka. Mongoloid) haplogroup markers than presnt-day Hungarians. --
84.0.57.240 (
talk)
12:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Do we have to deny (decades) works of Hungarian academic anthropologists? Because, according to User:Valosag, Turanid race is obsolete term, It does not exist, and the researchers are racist if somebody of them dare to use it? It is ridiculous. Pal Liptak's works are good quality and he had vast knowledge about migration period, Hungarians. Science and Turanism are different things. Antrophology uses this term without any racist reasoning. Genetic researches are different things again and thosse are just related with Anthropology (not the same discipline). Fakirbakir ( talk) 00:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Moreover Liptak"s works are important and dominant in connection with early Hungarians, Avars (in the Carpathian Basin). Fakirbakir ( talk) 01:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
-Non-fact, written by non-entity.
|I did some editing to meet Wikipedia's quality NPOV standards ;)| CormanoSanchez ( talk) 07:50, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
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The caption for the map of the Magyar raids into western Europe states "Most European nations were praying for mercy..." - this is un-encyclopedic and unsourced and needs to be adjusted.
The term "Vikings" should be changed to Varangians, to be more precise.
Many of the sections have repeated statements and jump around from one topic only to return to it again a paragraph later - probably the result of various editors wishing to stress their own competing references - disjointed, poor grammar. The text should be rewritten so that the various views are laid out in a logical manner, with the mainstream positions being stressed over the minor opinions.
What purpose does the "Eastern Hemisphere 1100 A.D." map have - what value does Africa, Asia and Australia have for this article? HammerFilmFan ( talk) 14:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan
Here are a few candidates:
マーテー ( talk) 02:07, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Magyars are the true ethnic name for ethnic people of Hungary. Hungarians is just the name that foreigners use. Why not use "Magyars" for this article instead of "Hungarian people"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.224.80.206 ( talk) 03:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Support - term "Hungarian people" in English can means also a inhabitants of the "Hungarian kingdom" of variouse ethnic origin. "Magyars" is better form for ethnicity. Its same case like Netherlands and Dutchs (Its more hits to Netherlands people as Dutch people in google). Until the late 19th century was the term "Hungarians" used for a Slovaks, Magyars, Ruthenians, Germans and all inhabitants of the Hungarian kingdom. With the rise of Hungarian nationalism started Magyars use this name exclusively for Magyars. Citation: "Hungarian and Magyar were synonymous until the end of of the eighteen century because nobody thought that the mother-tongue should be made the main criterion of nationhood. With the new emphasis placed on language, Magyar developed a more restricted meanig for those who spoke a particular language, while Hungarian maintained the broader meaning of those who lived in the Hungarian kingdom." So from the end of 18th century its different between Hungarians and Magyars. Term "Hungarian" and usage of this term for present day "Magyars" is nationalistic anachronism from 18-19th century. Some Magyar nationalists want to use these words as synonyms because its nationalistic instrument to create the ethnic and political history of Hungarian kingdom and Hungarians connected exclusively with ethnic Magyars. Because of this nationalism the Hungarian kingdom was divided into successor states: (mostly) Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary (btw new created Hungary was called "Magyaria" in official English documents [12]), Yugoslavia. Aim of these attempts are to link continuity of Hungarian kingdom exclusively with Hungary and Magyars. Its process of useing national mythology, nationalistic point of view of their history, deleteing of the different opinions and so on. You will hardly find a so many "historians" in one country like in Hungary. Their besetting insistency will be hard to change. If we deals with exact terms: "Hungarian people" about 83 000 hits [13] about "Magyars" 334 000 hits [14] -- Samofi ( talk) 10:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
It was a more successor states, its 1000 sources about it. Only Magyars wants to make Hungary only successor state. [19] read official documents. Successor states anexed a territory of the former Hungarian kingdom. In 1918 it was a Aster revolution in Hungarian kingdom and it was created a "Magyar Republic". For example Treaty of Trianon, there is written which states are successors (CS, HU, YU, RO). Dont you agree with treaty of trianon? -- Samofi ( talk) 13:42, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
NOTE: User:Hobartimus opposes because of user:samofi was formerly blocked, he has no relevant arguments about this topic. It can be considered as personal attack instead of arguments: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." "What is considered to be a personal attack?" "Linking to external attacks, harassment, or other material, for the purpose of attacking another editor". Former block of user:samofi is external case in the relation with this discussion and linking this former block with discussion about Hungarian people can be considered as personal attack. -- Samofi ( talk) 19:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I oppose for many reasons only some of which I outlined above, like a lot more use in English for the term "Hungarians". Since this text is written for English speakers it helps if we use terms they are already familiar with and widely use. Hobartimus ( talk) 19:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
NOTE Its manipulation.
Of course its use more often because it has 2 meanings. Before 1918 it was a citizenship - its correct. And after 1918 its sometimes used as citizenship and ethnic term. But term "Magyars" is use much more often used in the connection with dominant ethnic group in Hungary ( [26] - Magyar - a member of the ethnic group, of the Finno-Ugric stock, that forms the predominant element of the population of Hungary). We need to disambiguation terms "Hungarian people" and "Hungarians" (for example like the term "American" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American). Present article about "Hungarian people" is written about "ethnic Magyars" not about citizens of Hungary (its also Slovaks, Magyars, Jews, Germans). Its nationalism to connect political term which was used 1000 years with connection to people with variouse ethnic origin exclusively to Magyars as synonym. Its not synonym, you can read each English terminological dictionary. Ideas above are Ethnic nationalism - its danger for Wikipedia. -- Samofi ( talk) 07:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The article says that around 1000 "the Hungarian nation numbered between 25,000 and 1,000,000 people." Is it not possible to offer a narrower range of estimates? I realize numbers are sketchy for the early Middle Ages, but still this is a huge discrepancy. It's like estimating a crowd at "between 25 and 1,000."
Dealing with the 18th century, the article says, "Droves of Romanians entered Transylvania during the same period." Droves seems vaguely pejorative and POV.
Sca ( talk) 22:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
The reference to "nation" in the introduction must have been related to the attempt to recognize that the word "Hungarian" did not refer specifically to the Magyar ethnic group. It could mean a German who was a citizen of Hungary (The Kingdom of Hungary is historically multi-ethnic). There has been past discussion on this which can probably be found in the Talk archives. Some have advocated to name this article "Magyar" in order to remain specific and sensitive to this while others have advocated for "Hungarian". Obviously, the article's subject is the ethnic group, not the nation. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 22:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
For reference: Hungarians, also known as Magyars ( Hungarian: magyarok), are a Fenno-Ugric ethnic group native to and primarily associated with Hungary.
Why I keep removing this from the introduction:
I'm fully aware that there is use of the term "Finno-Ugric peoples" by various organizations who seek to promote the creation and sharing of more cultural bonds based on a linguistic language family and I take no issue with that, but it really has no place in an encyclopedic introduction (it is already linked to in the History section). "Finno-Ugric peoples" is a populist term and not scientific. Using such unscientific terms in the introduction would make it equally valid for someone else to come along and want "Ural-Altaic ethnic group", "Turanic ethnic group", "Hunno-Magyar ethnic group", "Germano-Slavic ethnic group", etc., etc.
Moreover, I remove "native to" because it contradicts the article, which gives a history of Hungarians coming from Siberia.
Alternative: Hungarians, also known as Magyars ( Hungarian: magyarok), are an ethnic group primarily associated with Hungary and speak a Finno-Ugric languages. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 20:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Stacey Doljack Borsody, the "native" part is in complete contradiction with the rest of the article, especially used in connection with Finno-Ugric peoples who are clearly not native to Europe. It is clear that 1000 years later, the modern Hungarians are well established in Europe, but it is still hard to make the case for being native. Same issues apply to Gypsies in Europe, Turks in Europe (even in Anatolia!) and the Europeans in Americas. They are all well established but not native (although, usually, they will all like to think of themselves that they are - until someone reminds them they are not). Of course, it can all be subjective and loaded with politics. You can always ask the question: how long can a group live somewhere before it becomes native? On top of it populations merge (as genetics shows for Hungarians) and languages mix. See also Native. It is not easy to phrase this in a way to not offend a party or another. I did my best to write it as accurately and neutral as possible. But I am happy to see any further refinement.-- Codrin.B ( talk) 18:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Finno-ugric peoples have been living in Eastern Europe since the Slavs arrived to Europe. But yes, they (and all of the European peoples) migrated to Europe via North Africa (and Caucasus, Central Asia). For instance, Finno-Ugric population lived in the region of Moscow, however latter Slav migrations from the west changed the ethnic composition of the area. If I follow your reasoning Croats will not be native in Croatia, Serbs will not be native in Serbia (because they were new settlers from the north, around 500 AD) Finns will be not native in Finland and eventually nobody will be native in Europe because everybody came from Africa. On the other hand, Hungarian homeland was in Eastern Europe (somewhere at the borders between Europe and Asia next to the Slavs(west) and Turk/Iranian peoples(south)) and Hungarians have been living in the Carpathian Basin for 1100 years. I think this space of time is enough to be considered Hungarians native in the Carpathian Basin. Fakirbakir ( talk) 11:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Those maps are misleading and explain nothing. The genetic researches about Hungarians are confusing and there are totally opposite opinions (started from Finno-Ugric haplogroups alias R1a1a1-z280 vs. N1c1 etc....). If the new researches are right about R1a1a1-z280 the Hungarian academic genetic researches will be almost entirely rubbish because of the different methods. For instance, they (the Hungarian academics in the previous decade) were looking for "Asian" markers instead of "real" Finno-Ugric markers ("European" markers as z280, according to the newest researches )....
Fakirbakir (
talk)
13:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the word "native" because of non-consensus.
Fakirbakir (
talk)
13:14, 22 March 2012 (UTC)