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This article could use another image. Here's one I would add, but I don't really know what it is. Can anyone help? - TheMightyQuill 02:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC) It's the Hungarian painter Mihaly Kovacs's work, titled "Redcap" (elite troopers of the Revolutionary Army's 9th and 11th Battalions, the red cap was a distinctive feature from regulars, it was an aknowledgement of their bravery.). It probably depicts early days (1848) of the Revolution, when Serb raiders instigated by the Austrian tyrants robbed Hungarian villages and these guys were ordered to restore peace in the Southern Lands (the killed agressors lying on the ground apparently Serbs).-- http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6r%C3%B6ssipk%C3%A1sok-- The painting on the upper right doesnt depict Petőfi, its Lajos Kossuth recruiting men to the Hungarian Army. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.21.211.14 ( talk) 15:46, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I reverted the deletion of the intro paragraph and unreferenced tag because even though there are no references yet (anywhere in the article) the intro itself is a summary of the article whereas the main body requires references. (there is nothing controversial or POV in the intro). The tag is not inapropriate but the intro should remain. István 20:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed some other editors preferring to place that tag at the bottom of the page too. My reason for liking it at the top is that it doubles as both a request for references and sort of a caution to certain readers who might make the connection between an unreferenced article and an inaccurate article. However, this article just seems to be lacking references, not inaccurate, so the placement at the bottom is fine with me. Sancho McCann 01:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Minor, but... first, why plural revolutions, and second, to standartize it with others, why not Hungarian revolution of 1848?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 05:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I know, I feel the same way. It was done to standardize it with the other articles that are part of Template:Revolutions of 1848, but I think a singular title would make more sense. - TheMightyQuill 07:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
When the so-called Hungarian Revolution started, the lands of the Krown of Saint Stephen had a multiethnic population of Romanians, Serbs, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Germans, Jews and Hungarians. The Hungarian - speaking population (including the Jewish, German, Serbian townspeople) was merely 29% and the Hungarian ethnic group was abb 25% of the total population. The aim of the rebelious group under the dictatorial command of Lajos Kossuth was to impose an APARTHEID STYLE society all over the St. Stephen Lands (the actual Hungarian Republic, Slovakia, parts of Romania, Ukraine, Austria, Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia).Only the Hungarian ethnic group would enjoy full freedon and full citizens rights. According to the rebels "Revolutionary Programme", accession to the status of full citizens would imply the rejection of the national identities of the native peoples (75% of the population in 1848) and inclusion into the "Hungarian Nation". Therefore, it is excessive to call the 1848-1849 uprisings of Hungary a "Revolution". It was in fact a sort of military attempt to replace the Austrian imperial administration by an Hungarian ethnocratic system by force and extensive massacres among the native peoples during the period 1848-1849. Of course, the success chances of this kind of ethnocratic attempts are meagre or short-lasting. It's usefull to see the situation of South Africa, where the white minority (20% of the population in 1945 and 9% of the population in 2005) hardly mantained the Apartheid Regime, against the world-wide condemnations. The so-called "hungarian revolution" was very far from European democratic way of thinking an is an example of anti-democratic movement, but successfully sold to the outside world as a "very democratic attempt". Maybe that style of twisting the events was the main success for the Hungarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy during the years after 1849. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.196.150.157 ( talk) 08:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC).
Very interesting analysis. I know next to nothing about this revolution, so I encourage such "revisionist" voices to chip in here. Zezen ( talk) 23:26, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
It is really strange to consider Kossuth, Petofi and the rest of the gang as "progressive liberals and reformers". Long before any Habsburg conspiracy and Machiavellian meddling, this gang clearely stated that inside the Carpatian Basin ONLY HUNGARIANS will benefit from "liberty, equality and fraternity" and they wrote this loud and clear in the ORIGINAL Budapest Proclamation. No Habsburgs and no outside forces teached them to kill 40.000 Romanian childrens, women and elders in Transsylvania. 50 years of Apartheid regime in South Africa did less victimes than 2 years of "Hungarian revolutionary regime" and ETHNOCRATIC WAR. Moreover, it's very interesting to observe that Avram Iancu, one of the leading figures of the Romanian inteligentia in 1848-1849 proposed in his writings the formation of a "European Union" with democratic Constitutions, equality for ALL THE CITIZENS, irrespective of ethnic, religious origin, free universal vote, common assemblies, free trade and cultural excanges. Please note that the actual European Constitution is strikingly similar with the political ideeas of Avram Iancu, written in 1847-1850 ! The response of the Hungarian gang was ... several massive military offensives against the Highlanders of Avram Iancu. It's wierd to see, even in the contemporary Hungary, which is a member state of the European Union, monuments of war criminals as kossuth, petofi and bem !
The "not so nice things about Avram Iancu" is the fact that he considered that the only feasible government is a FULLY democratic one and the fact that he rejected hungarian and habsburg tirany in Transsylvania (as the vast majority of the Transsylvanians). Another "bad thing" about Avram Iancu was the fact that he encouraged the good human relations between hungarians and Romanians. The fact that he married a hungarian women enraged the narrow minded backward hungarian nationalists. Another "bad thing" is that Avram Iancu condemned the ethnic cleansing and the massacration of the civilian as a barbaric act and therefore he enraged the kossuth, petofi and bem's gang of ETHNOCRATIC FANATICS. If you remember, the Emperor Joseph II von Habsburg emancipated the peasants and the jews, ended the nobility's immunity from taxation and put an end to feudalism but his reforms was halted by the Hungarian ETHNOCRATIC RULE because Josephine illuminist reforms threatened the HUNGARIAN ETHNOCRATIC RULE inside the Carpatic Basin. Do not compare the war criminal kossuth with the administrative genius, count Istvan Szechenyi. The Hungarain nation have admirable personalities as count Istvan Szechenyi, but also horrible criminals like kossuth and extremist and racist artists like petofi alexander (born Petrovics, as a Serbian, but of course, rejected by the Serbs). As a conclusion, one of the greatest mistakes of the kossuth ethnocratic gang was to extend them apartheid-style movement into Transsylvania. Of course, in Transsylvania there is a Hungarian Szekler minority (abb 6% of the total population) and an Hungarian speaking minority, most of them the offspring of Hungarized Romanians and Germans (abb 12% of the population) but his is not a valid argument for the intervention of the ETHNOCRATIC GANG's armies of fortune in this province ! It's cruel, barbarian, anti-democratic and shamefull by ALL STANDARDS of human behaviour ! Get real, Start to think as an democratic European ! Reject apartheid style racists as kossuth, petofi, bem, batthyany ! It's not an academic stand to defend and EHNOCRATIC GANG in Wikipedia. The 21th century Europe shoud NOT pay hommage to cruel and antidemocratic criminals and ethnocentric racist poets. The Hungarian people has enough admirable personalities and outstanding accomplishments to be hailed and presented to the wide World.
Austria turned the nationalities against the Hungarians, mainly playing out the era's Pan Slavism against the Hungarians, saying the things you say above. For example Josip Jelačić (a devote supporter and protagonist of the Illyrian movement) got promoted as ban, in exchange for raising an army aganist the Hungarians. BTW more Slovaks fought on the Hungarian side, than against them. Romanians were, and are eastern orthodox ppl. In a catholic country it meant secondary citizenship. Whom wanted to be promoted or simply get higher in the hierarchy, simply left orthodoxy and rebaptized as a catholic. It is misleading do define a 19th century event with 20th century definitions and viewpoints. "Nation" and "ethnicity" does not counted before the French revolution, or in a broader sense, before the enlightement. And Hungary, as the whole region was in at least 50 yrs, but that time even more of lag (and is still in it :) comparing to Western Europe. For example Hungary was still feudalistic in the 1890s (!), when feudalism was demolished in the 16th-17th century. Just remember Széchenyi's writing about how backward country was Hungary in the 1830s, comparing to the West. But divide et impera does existed. And Austria had a long history of using it. - üdv: László
I find this whole discussion too much in black-and-white , with too much childish nationalistic mythology that got entagled in something that should be a historical debate.
YES, Austria used slavic ethnicities against the Hungarians, and YES the revolutionaries were liberal (in the 19th century sense of the word), and YES, the prominent men of the revolution at that time were not prepared to acknowledge equal rights to non-Hungarian minorities (which made the Austrian task of playing the other ethnicites against the Hungarians easier). These facts are NOT mutually exclusive, except in the heads of Hungarian/Romanian/Croatian/Austrian&etc nationalists.
Explaining a complex and massive process like a revolution in a hundred words and using "us and them" mindset is, mildly put, stupid. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
193.198.207.67 (
talk) 18:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
In July 1849, the Hungarian Revolutionary Parliament proclaimed and enacted the first laws on ethnic and minority rights in the world. (The next such laws were in Switzerland.) But these were overturned after the Russian and Austrian armies crushed the Hungarian Revolution. When Hungary made a compromise with the dynasty in 1867 one of the first acts of the restored Parliament was to pass a Law on Nationalities (Act Number XLIV of 1868).
Again, ethnic minority rights didn't exist in other countries of the pre ww1 Europe, France Britain Italy and German legal systems didn't know the term of ethnic and minority rights before ww1. France was a multinational country sin similar degree as Hungary. (Only 50% of the French population spoke French as first/mother tongue in 1870 !!!) Minority newpapers theatres and schools were banned in France. The official language was French in offices, only foreign citizens had right to use translators. Great Britain was a multinational "united" kingdom with unquetionalbe English cultural and linguistic hegemony (Irish Scottish question). (only English schools theatres newspapers were tolerated in the British Isles), Russia was also multiethnic The russian hegemony was unquestionalble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.46.188.166 ( talk) 11:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Yep. 90.244.82.231 ( talk) 15:24, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
If we were to move this article, what would you name it?
Any other ideas? - TheMightyQuill 07:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
OK. 90.244.82.231 ( talk) 15:24, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Consensus was in favour of the move to Hungarian Revolution of 1848. -- bainer ( talk) 05:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Looking over the long list of others, similarly named "Revolutions of 1848 in XX" one may easily advocate changing to "XX-ish Revolution of 1848" with one notable exception: France. It doesn't seem right to use the title " French Revolution of 1848"; since " French Revolution" is already so iconic and much more significant. One could simply make an exception for France (certainly without breaking precedent) allowing a redirect to stand as a special case, but does anyone else have a solution to propose? István 20:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
The Hungarian cockade (kokárda) puts the red on the outside, gathering up the green on the inside. The picture seems to be of an Italian cockade. 72.81.57.8 ( talk) 20:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Hungary had autonomy before the revoultion, and the demands (the twelve points) were about a democratical goverment, not autonomy, which already existed. Otherwise, Kossuth became governer in 1849. Toroko ( talk) 12:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Hungary wasn't in war with Croats, but with troops from Croatia.
Because of circumstances, Croats from southern Hungary stood by Hungary. Because of that, later in Kingdom of Yugoslavia acts of those Croats were viewed as treason and those Croats as traitors, because they were not on the same side as Serbs (and Croats).
Simply told, Croats from southern Hungary were too close to huge Hungarian troops to take side against them, and too far away from friendly controlled territory, like Serbs from southern Hungary had. Croatian troops were engaged westwards.
Choice was: either with numerous Hungarians against less numerous Serbs, or siding with less numerous Serbs (that had some dissatisfaction against Croats) against much stronger Hungarians.
Kamarad Walter (
talk) 23:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree, ElsswothSK. Croats that fought on Hungarian side were part of Hungarian units. I haven't seen in sources that there were some particular Croat units in Hungarian army.
I disagree with user Baxter9 that made an revert
[1] and left Wikipedia, without discussing his action. Triune Kingdom existed before Croatian-Hungarian Agreement.
[2]
"Hrvatsko plemstvo bilo je zatečeno agresivnošću mađarske politike, ali joj je pružalo odlučan otpor u skladu s politikom formuliranom banskim protestom izrečenim u samom Ugarskom saboru: »Regnum regno non praescribit leges!«...Ono je branilo svoj kolektivni identitet kao staleška »natio croatica«. Branilo je zasebni politički identitet političkog teritorija i svoj položaj nositelja njegova suvereniteta, nepovredivost »realnog« teritorija Hrvatske i Slavonije te prava na obnovu teritorijalne cjelovitosti »Kraljevina Dalmacije, Hrvatske i Slavonije«. Njegov hrvatski staleški protonacionalizam manifestirao se i u uporabi jedinstvenoga hrvatskog imena za tu »trojednu kraljevinu«. U svojoj su se izjavi u Ugarskome saboru protiv uvođenja mađarskoga jezika hrvatski nunciji 1790. izjasnili kao »nunciji Kraljevine Hrvatske« (»nuncii Regni Croatiae«), izričito napominjući da pod jedinstvenim imenom »regnum Croatiae« razumijevaju teritorij pod povijesnim imenom »Regna Dalmatiae, Croatiae et Slavoniae«"
Translation of the last sentence;
"In 1790, In Hungarian Diet, in their declaration against introduction of Hungarian language in Kingdom of Croatia, Croatian deputees have declared themselves as nuncii Regni Croatiae, nuntius of Kingdom of Croatia, explicitly noting that under common name "regnum Croatiae" they mean the territory under historical name "Regna Dalmatiae, Croatiae et Slavoniae" (Kingdoms of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia).
I believe that this is also available in Hungarian literature.
Kamarad Walter (
talk) 17:03, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
There is too less content in 1848–1849 massacres in Transylvania, there is no need to create a separate article for a content that could be included in other already existing ones ( Iaaasi ( talk) 14:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC))
Disagree. This is essentially the head article for all the topics about the battles, the people and so forth, of which I and my partner have translated very faithfully from the head article. I think it needs to stands as the head article for others to link. I am trying to improve the links, if SmackBot doesn!t keep taking them all out again. I have complained about this to the owner of that bot, and not to my surprise got absolutely no response at all. Si Trew ( talk) 12:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
The topics on the various battles, the biographies of the people involved etc, are written in British English as I happen to be British. This subject is in American English, and I have no problem with that as such, but I think it would flow smoother if it were put into British English.
I should appreciate your views. Si Trew ( talk) 12:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
in the Sources section. I always struggle to get these right. If you can, please do.
Si Trew (
talk) 03:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The article claims "After securing all of Transylvania, Bem moved his 30,000–40,000-man Hungarian army against Austrian forces in the northern Banat capturing the city of Temesvár (now Timişoara, Romania)". Although Engels is mentioned as a source for this, it never happened. While the city was under siege from hungarian revolutionary forces, the imperial garrison held the city until it was successfully relieved by Haynau, after he won the battle of Temesvar against Bem, just as the linked article states. Dead-cat ( talk) 08:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
What is with all the loaded politicking? First of all politics is not a straight line as most in the US think, second it is almost impossible to map 1848 political spectrum to today's; so why the need to use these slanted high-inference language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.121.242 ( talk) 15:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Why do you thing that monatary and fiscal status is "out of context" ? Litricsor ( talk) 12:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
In this article the Russian forces entering Hungary are dismissed as less of ten thousand people, easily won by the patriots. In the article "Revolutions of 1848" it is said that Russian soldiers were over than 300.000. The difference is big and unavoidable. I think Russians were at least 190.000 and, mainly, were determining in crushing the Hungarian troops, since Austrian army was engaged against other uprisings. Lele giannoni ( talk) 12:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Some of the article looks to be copied from scanned documents, given odd typographic errors such as "Paris reached Pressburg 1 (March i)" and "I3" instead of "13" for a date. The language of those same paragraphs also reads less like neutral journalism. Sorry to come and nitpick, instead of just rewriting the content, but I thought it would be worth calling out in case someone is inspired to look for plagiarism. Owlmonkey ( talk) 17:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
a. "Article X of 1790". What treaty or other instrument is being referenced? b. What is a "Hungarian Diet"? Presumably, not the latest fad in weight loss. Should this link to another page describing what it is? (Later note: a link appears later in the paragraph to the Diet of Hungary.) c. What is a "rescript"? Ditto link to another page. d. A word of explanation of "the common monarch" would be welcome since this paragraph makes it clear at the start that Hungary was a separate monarchy. Common and separate mean different, nearly opposite, things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.45.182.9 ( talk) 21:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Wrong. Common Monarch can rule legally independent countries. Have you ever heard about Personal union? It was frequent phenomenon in England Hungary France HRE Spain and in many other European countries. -- Konglich ( talk) 19:26, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I mean this:
the forces of reactionary absolutism were everywhere supreme. But beneath the surface a strong popular current was beginning to run in a contrary direction. Hungarian society, not unaffected by western Liberalism, but without any direct help from abroad, was preparing for the future emancipation. Writers, savants, poets, artists, noble and plebeian, layman and cleric, without any previous concert, or obvious connection...
I am slapping "personal essay" tag on it. Zezen ( talk) 23:24, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Is it a translation from Hungarian? I tried to at least fix the grammar, see my changes, but got stuck at:
In contrast, Kossuth believed that the society could not be forced into a passive role by any reasons through the social changing.
I do not grok it, so I stop and leave it to our Hungarian speaking colleagues to elucidate. Ping me when the article can be read in extenso, please. Zezen ( talk) 23:39, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
I added this tag public domain:
Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911).
Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. {{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
Rjensen (
talk) 23:52, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
2. Do you understand the second quote then?
1. What I mean by bombastic: "reactionary absolutism were everywhere supreme. But beneath the surface a strong popular current... "
The style is not elegant. It is not encyclopedic. It is not objective. It should be rewritten. Zezen ( talk) 00:42, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Bombastic or not, but the first quote is from the "Hungary" article of the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911. (Which is free to use in Wikipedia) We don't need transform it, just keep the original. It is an archaic, but good English. Reactionary means pro-feudal or anti-liberal in the era. During the era communist dictature, the "reactinoary" means capitalist liberal or even nazi in the books of Eastern European authors.
"they forgot to throw in the Khlysty nuns, folk dancers, babies in the cradle and Gypsy circus performers thereto" These had no effects on the contemporary societies and politics.
Yes, utmost all contemporary Western (English French American etc..) authors , encylopedias considered the Habsburgs and Russians, as the "evil dark forces" of the feudalism, because they crushed the liberal bourgeois revolutions. -- CTVRTLANIK 1975 ( talk) 16:36, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hungarian Revolution of 1848/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Felhívnám mindenki figyelmét,hogy a kokárda színei fordítva vannak/the cockade's colors are inverse,now it's more like an Italian one. |
Last edited at 16:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 18:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
"It's an old tradition (although nowadays not held by everyone) that Hungarians do not clink beer glasses or beer bottles. This is due to the legend that Austrians celebrated the execution of the 13 Hungarian Martyrs in 1849 by clinking their beer glasses, so Hungarians vowed not to clink with beer for 150 years." https://www.gapyear.com/countries/hungary/local-customs Marcin862 ( talk) 16:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
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A sentence from the section "American Civil War" appears incomplete a fragment with the problem is included below. Likely intent was "of this comparatively small number [ there were 999? ] who rose to the rank of", with 999 clearly needing to be set to an accuratish number.
"... testimony to the military qualities of the Magyar people that of this comparatively small number who rose to the rank of Major-General, while five became Brigadier-Generals, fifteen Colonels, two Lieutenant-Colonels, ..." Ronaldws r+d ( talk) 14:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Are not WP:RS for claims of historical fact or for that matter for anything other possibly their own views (though even that - “what did Marx and Engels really mean?” - is an entire secondary literature onto itself). Aside from obvious bias, they’re also outdated and close to the events. Volunteer Marek 01:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Marx and Engels are not reliable sources. They have strong ideological biases against non-Magyar and non-German groups e.g. 'In Austria, apart from Poland and Italy, it is the Germans and Magyars in 1848, as during the past thousand years already, who have assumed the historical initiative. They represent the revolution.
The Southern Slavs, who for a thousand years have been taken in tow by the Germans and the Magyars, only rose up in 1848 to achieve their national independence in order thereby at the same time to suppress the German-Magyar revolution. They represent the counter-revolution. They were joined by two nations, which had likewise long ago degenerated and were devoid of all historical power of action: the Saxons and the Rumanians of Transylvania.' ( https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1849/01/13.htm) Unfortunately, most Magyar publications from the communist era are biased in the same ways; the Orbán government promotes similar narratives. The solution is to use contemporary, non-nationalist sources that provide a much more comprehensive, measured account of events e.g. Rady (who happens to be Hungarian, as do I); Judson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.150.38.31 ( talk) 02:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Marx and Engels were even restrained about the situation in Hungary when compared to the liberal politicians and intellectuals of the Western democratic free world of the time (USA, UK, France). In the eyes of the free democratic world of the West, the Habsburgs and their helping nationalities were depicted as the bad guys and the bad villains.-
The contemporary Western perception of Tsar Alexander or Nicholas were no better than that of Putin, and the perception of Franz Joseph was no different from that of Lukashenko-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 10:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
OrionNimrod ( talk) 09:09, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Hungarian Revolutuon of 1848. The discussion is about the topic revisions. Thank you. LotusEating ( talk) 06:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
This page needs a lot of work. The latest edits go some way to improving it, citing contemporary scholarship from a varied range of sources, including world experts on the topic at hand. The original cites Friedrich Engels and Karl Marx, ideologues with clear biases against Romanians and Slavs. The contemporary sources are also much less bombastic and emotive. 144.138.60.195 ( talk) 12:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia asks people to improve the article - let's do it in good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.60.195 ( talk) 12:02, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The communist Marx and Engles are relatively calm towards the nationalties which helped the Habsburgs and Tzars, but the Western European and American liberals of the era had even a much more negative attitude towards the pro-Habsburg nationalities than Marx or Engels.. It is enough to read contemporary British American or French newspapers about the events in Hungary-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 11:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
These ethnic groups had very backward social development, thus they did not even have well developed and specialized newspapers.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 22:31, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
"(FWIW, British, American, and French newspapers of course gave a range of views)" Wrong idea, of course there were so-called "range of views", like there are pro- Putin views in some negligible western newspapers nowadays, but the was majority of newspapers and news portals TV companies are against Putin. That was the case in the Habsburg - Hungarian conflict of 1848-49.
Romanians and Serbians were Orthodox countries, which had not better societal infrastructural and cultural development level than a typical Asian British or French colony. Learn about it, especially worth to memorize the 16 points: https://orthodox-eurasian-civiliazation.blogspot.com/2021/02/the-asianization-of-greco-roman.html
-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 16:15, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
"Western European public opinion and newspapers were much more evenly split than today." It is just wishful thinking. The free and democratic world (US UK France) condemned the absolutist Habsburgs and their helper nationalities , as the enemies of the democratic ideas and freedom. With modern American slandg, they were the "bad guys". My sources are not a political blog, because it is written by academic historians, and not simple journalists. "Historians use them to develop better accounts of events." Unfortunatelly they do not represent the contemporary Western democratic public opinion. That1s why Lajos Kossuth was welcomed as a demigod, physical embodiment of freedom and democracy in Western countries during his American British etc. jouney.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 21:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Lajos Kossuth, a Hungarian political leader and statesman, played a significant role in the Hungarian Revolution of 1848-1849. After the revolution was suppressed by the Austrian Empire, Kossuth sought refuge in the United States and later visited the United Kingdom. His visit to these countries garnered considerable attention and resulted in a range of reactions. While I don't have access to real-time information, I can provide you with an overview of the reception Kossuth received in the USA and the UK based on historical accounts up until September 2021.
Reception in the United States: 1. United States Congress: Kossuth's visit to the United States in 1851 was met with great enthusiasm. He was invited to address the United States Congress, becoming the first foreign leader to do so. His speech received a standing ovation, and he was widely praised for his commitment to liberty and democracy. 2. Public Support: Kossuth's visit sparked widespread public support, particularly among those sympathetic to the cause of Hungarian independence and democracy. His speeches drew large crowds, and he was hailed as a champion of freedom. 3. Media Coverage: Kossuth's visit received extensive media coverage. Newspapers published his speeches, and his activities were reported on a daily basis. The media generally portrayed him positively, emphasizing his fight against oppression and his eloquence as a speaker.
Reception in the United Kingdom:
Public and Intellectual Support: Despite the government's reservations, Kossuth received significant support from the British public and intellectual circles. Many British liberals and intellectuals admired his struggle for Hungarian independence and democratic ideals. Public meetings and rallies were organized in his honor, demonstrating the support he enjoyed among the British people. 3. Media Coverage: Kossuth's visit received substantial media coverage in the United Kingdom. Newspapers reported on his speeches and activities, and his message of liberty and national self-determination resonated with many readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hefty-priced ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Yes, it was only the southern elite (slave owners) who were against Kossuth. It tells a lot about the situation.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 09:21, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
Orionimrod, you can't even understand the reason why was Americans and Brits mentioned. I just try to teach the very simple fact, that the public opinion of free and democratic world (the West) supported the Hungarian Revolution, and condemned the unconstitutional and unlawful deeds of the absolutist Habsburgs.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 12:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Hungarian Revolutuon of 1848. The discussion is about the topic topic. Thank you. LotusEating ( talk) 06:12, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Hungary did not want independence from Austrian Emppire, because simply Hungary was not really part of that Empire. You can read the details of legal history here: in the historical background section: /info/en/?search=Austro-Hungarian_Compromise_of_1867#Historical_background
The first phase was the Batthiány government, where the Hungarian government strugled for democracy and freedom, and which were bonded to the revolutionary ideas, but it was still loyal to the Habsburgs as Monarchs. (Hungary that time did not relate to the Austrian empire, it was just a mere personal union based on the person of the monarch. The strugle was related to the preservation of the April laws
Second phase was the Szemere Goverment, where Lajos Kossuth became head of state. It started as a reaction to the illegal/unlawful March Constitution (Austria). The independence war started with the Szemere government.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 09:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
The claim is controversial, and the source is the Hungarian Conservative, a political website. https://web.archive.org/web/20230730110111/https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/culture_society/hungary_europe_liberal_conservative_foreign_policy_reform_era/. I suggest removing the claim till we can find a source that does not violate NPOV. LotusEating ( talk) 06:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Some time has passed since I suggested good faith edits and the page remains in a poor state. If there is no way to get nationalists to agree to substantive changes in line with contemporary scholarship, can we at least remove the political language? (e.g. "reactionary" Slovak forces)? LotusEating ( talk) 05:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Reactionary means anti revolutionary and pro-Habsburg.
I suggest to read that Book. Hungary was not an Austrian province, it became Austrian province only after 1849.
Photo of page 22: https://i.ibb.co/yY6P9w0/k-p.png
Constitutional Law in Hungary By Zoltán Szente · 2022
ISBN: 9789403544427, 9403544422 Page count: 360 Published: September 20, 2022 Format: ebook Publisher: Wolters Kluwer
-- Mandliners ( talk) 06:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on March 15, 2007, March 15, 2008, March 15, 2009, March 15, 2010, March 15, 2013, March 15, 2014, March 15, 2015, and March 15, 2016. |
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This article could use another image. Here's one I would add, but I don't really know what it is. Can anyone help? - TheMightyQuill 02:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC) It's the Hungarian painter Mihaly Kovacs's work, titled "Redcap" (elite troopers of the Revolutionary Army's 9th and 11th Battalions, the red cap was a distinctive feature from regulars, it was an aknowledgement of their bravery.). It probably depicts early days (1848) of the Revolution, when Serb raiders instigated by the Austrian tyrants robbed Hungarian villages and these guys were ordered to restore peace in the Southern Lands (the killed agressors lying on the ground apparently Serbs).-- http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6r%C3%B6ssipk%C3%A1sok-- The painting on the upper right doesnt depict Petőfi, its Lajos Kossuth recruiting men to the Hungarian Army. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.21.211.14 ( talk) 15:46, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I reverted the deletion of the intro paragraph and unreferenced tag because even though there are no references yet (anywhere in the article) the intro itself is a summary of the article whereas the main body requires references. (there is nothing controversial or POV in the intro). The tag is not inapropriate but the intro should remain. István 20:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed some other editors preferring to place that tag at the bottom of the page too. My reason for liking it at the top is that it doubles as both a request for references and sort of a caution to certain readers who might make the connection between an unreferenced article and an inaccurate article. However, this article just seems to be lacking references, not inaccurate, so the placement at the bottom is fine with me. Sancho McCann 01:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Minor, but... first, why plural revolutions, and second, to standartize it with others, why not Hungarian revolution of 1848?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 05:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I know, I feel the same way. It was done to standardize it with the other articles that are part of Template:Revolutions of 1848, but I think a singular title would make more sense. - TheMightyQuill 07:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
When the so-called Hungarian Revolution started, the lands of the Krown of Saint Stephen had a multiethnic population of Romanians, Serbs, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Germans, Jews and Hungarians. The Hungarian - speaking population (including the Jewish, German, Serbian townspeople) was merely 29% and the Hungarian ethnic group was abb 25% of the total population. The aim of the rebelious group under the dictatorial command of Lajos Kossuth was to impose an APARTHEID STYLE society all over the St. Stephen Lands (the actual Hungarian Republic, Slovakia, parts of Romania, Ukraine, Austria, Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia).Only the Hungarian ethnic group would enjoy full freedon and full citizens rights. According to the rebels "Revolutionary Programme", accession to the status of full citizens would imply the rejection of the national identities of the native peoples (75% of the population in 1848) and inclusion into the "Hungarian Nation". Therefore, it is excessive to call the 1848-1849 uprisings of Hungary a "Revolution". It was in fact a sort of military attempt to replace the Austrian imperial administration by an Hungarian ethnocratic system by force and extensive massacres among the native peoples during the period 1848-1849. Of course, the success chances of this kind of ethnocratic attempts are meagre or short-lasting. It's usefull to see the situation of South Africa, where the white minority (20% of the population in 1945 and 9% of the population in 2005) hardly mantained the Apartheid Regime, against the world-wide condemnations. The so-called "hungarian revolution" was very far from European democratic way of thinking an is an example of anti-democratic movement, but successfully sold to the outside world as a "very democratic attempt". Maybe that style of twisting the events was the main success for the Hungarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy during the years after 1849. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.196.150.157 ( talk) 08:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC).
Very interesting analysis. I know next to nothing about this revolution, so I encourage such "revisionist" voices to chip in here. Zezen ( talk) 23:26, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
It is really strange to consider Kossuth, Petofi and the rest of the gang as "progressive liberals and reformers". Long before any Habsburg conspiracy and Machiavellian meddling, this gang clearely stated that inside the Carpatian Basin ONLY HUNGARIANS will benefit from "liberty, equality and fraternity" and they wrote this loud and clear in the ORIGINAL Budapest Proclamation. No Habsburgs and no outside forces teached them to kill 40.000 Romanian childrens, women and elders in Transsylvania. 50 years of Apartheid regime in South Africa did less victimes than 2 years of "Hungarian revolutionary regime" and ETHNOCRATIC WAR. Moreover, it's very interesting to observe that Avram Iancu, one of the leading figures of the Romanian inteligentia in 1848-1849 proposed in his writings the formation of a "European Union" with democratic Constitutions, equality for ALL THE CITIZENS, irrespective of ethnic, religious origin, free universal vote, common assemblies, free trade and cultural excanges. Please note that the actual European Constitution is strikingly similar with the political ideeas of Avram Iancu, written in 1847-1850 ! The response of the Hungarian gang was ... several massive military offensives against the Highlanders of Avram Iancu. It's wierd to see, even in the contemporary Hungary, which is a member state of the European Union, monuments of war criminals as kossuth, petofi and bem !
The "not so nice things about Avram Iancu" is the fact that he considered that the only feasible government is a FULLY democratic one and the fact that he rejected hungarian and habsburg tirany in Transsylvania (as the vast majority of the Transsylvanians). Another "bad thing" about Avram Iancu was the fact that he encouraged the good human relations between hungarians and Romanians. The fact that he married a hungarian women enraged the narrow minded backward hungarian nationalists. Another "bad thing" is that Avram Iancu condemned the ethnic cleansing and the massacration of the civilian as a barbaric act and therefore he enraged the kossuth, petofi and bem's gang of ETHNOCRATIC FANATICS. If you remember, the Emperor Joseph II von Habsburg emancipated the peasants and the jews, ended the nobility's immunity from taxation and put an end to feudalism but his reforms was halted by the Hungarian ETHNOCRATIC RULE because Josephine illuminist reforms threatened the HUNGARIAN ETHNOCRATIC RULE inside the Carpatic Basin. Do not compare the war criminal kossuth with the administrative genius, count Istvan Szechenyi. The Hungarain nation have admirable personalities as count Istvan Szechenyi, but also horrible criminals like kossuth and extremist and racist artists like petofi alexander (born Petrovics, as a Serbian, but of course, rejected by the Serbs). As a conclusion, one of the greatest mistakes of the kossuth ethnocratic gang was to extend them apartheid-style movement into Transsylvania. Of course, in Transsylvania there is a Hungarian Szekler minority (abb 6% of the total population) and an Hungarian speaking minority, most of them the offspring of Hungarized Romanians and Germans (abb 12% of the population) but his is not a valid argument for the intervention of the ETHNOCRATIC GANG's armies of fortune in this province ! It's cruel, barbarian, anti-democratic and shamefull by ALL STANDARDS of human behaviour ! Get real, Start to think as an democratic European ! Reject apartheid style racists as kossuth, petofi, bem, batthyany ! It's not an academic stand to defend and EHNOCRATIC GANG in Wikipedia. The 21th century Europe shoud NOT pay hommage to cruel and antidemocratic criminals and ethnocentric racist poets. The Hungarian people has enough admirable personalities and outstanding accomplishments to be hailed and presented to the wide World.
Austria turned the nationalities against the Hungarians, mainly playing out the era's Pan Slavism against the Hungarians, saying the things you say above. For example Josip Jelačić (a devote supporter and protagonist of the Illyrian movement) got promoted as ban, in exchange for raising an army aganist the Hungarians. BTW more Slovaks fought on the Hungarian side, than against them. Romanians were, and are eastern orthodox ppl. In a catholic country it meant secondary citizenship. Whom wanted to be promoted or simply get higher in the hierarchy, simply left orthodoxy and rebaptized as a catholic. It is misleading do define a 19th century event with 20th century definitions and viewpoints. "Nation" and "ethnicity" does not counted before the French revolution, or in a broader sense, before the enlightement. And Hungary, as the whole region was in at least 50 yrs, but that time even more of lag (and is still in it :) comparing to Western Europe. For example Hungary was still feudalistic in the 1890s (!), when feudalism was demolished in the 16th-17th century. Just remember Széchenyi's writing about how backward country was Hungary in the 1830s, comparing to the West. But divide et impera does existed. And Austria had a long history of using it. - üdv: László
I find this whole discussion too much in black-and-white , with too much childish nationalistic mythology that got entagled in something that should be a historical debate.
YES, Austria used slavic ethnicities against the Hungarians, and YES the revolutionaries were liberal (in the 19th century sense of the word), and YES, the prominent men of the revolution at that time were not prepared to acknowledge equal rights to non-Hungarian minorities (which made the Austrian task of playing the other ethnicites against the Hungarians easier). These facts are NOT mutually exclusive, except in the heads of Hungarian/Romanian/Croatian/Austrian&etc nationalists.
Explaining a complex and massive process like a revolution in a hundred words and using "us and them" mindset is, mildly put, stupid. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
193.198.207.67 (
talk) 18:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
In July 1849, the Hungarian Revolutionary Parliament proclaimed and enacted the first laws on ethnic and minority rights in the world. (The next such laws were in Switzerland.) But these were overturned after the Russian and Austrian armies crushed the Hungarian Revolution. When Hungary made a compromise with the dynasty in 1867 one of the first acts of the restored Parliament was to pass a Law on Nationalities (Act Number XLIV of 1868).
Again, ethnic minority rights didn't exist in other countries of the pre ww1 Europe, France Britain Italy and German legal systems didn't know the term of ethnic and minority rights before ww1. France was a multinational country sin similar degree as Hungary. (Only 50% of the French population spoke French as first/mother tongue in 1870 !!!) Minority newpapers theatres and schools were banned in France. The official language was French in offices, only foreign citizens had right to use translators. Great Britain was a multinational "united" kingdom with unquetionalbe English cultural and linguistic hegemony (Irish Scottish question). (only English schools theatres newspapers were tolerated in the British Isles), Russia was also multiethnic The russian hegemony was unquestionalble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.46.188.166 ( talk) 11:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Yep. 90.244.82.231 ( talk) 15:24, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
If we were to move this article, what would you name it?
Any other ideas? - TheMightyQuill 07:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
OK. 90.244.82.231 ( talk) 15:24, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Consensus was in favour of the move to Hungarian Revolution of 1848. -- bainer ( talk) 05:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Looking over the long list of others, similarly named "Revolutions of 1848 in XX" one may easily advocate changing to "XX-ish Revolution of 1848" with one notable exception: France. It doesn't seem right to use the title " French Revolution of 1848"; since " French Revolution" is already so iconic and much more significant. One could simply make an exception for France (certainly without breaking precedent) allowing a redirect to stand as a special case, but does anyone else have a solution to propose? István 20:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
The Hungarian cockade (kokárda) puts the red on the outside, gathering up the green on the inside. The picture seems to be of an Italian cockade. 72.81.57.8 ( talk) 20:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Hungary had autonomy before the revoultion, and the demands (the twelve points) were about a democratical goverment, not autonomy, which already existed. Otherwise, Kossuth became governer in 1849. Toroko ( talk) 12:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Hungary wasn't in war with Croats, but with troops from Croatia.
Because of circumstances, Croats from southern Hungary stood by Hungary. Because of that, later in Kingdom of Yugoslavia acts of those Croats were viewed as treason and those Croats as traitors, because they were not on the same side as Serbs (and Croats).
Simply told, Croats from southern Hungary were too close to huge Hungarian troops to take side against them, and too far away from friendly controlled territory, like Serbs from southern Hungary had. Croatian troops were engaged westwards.
Choice was: either with numerous Hungarians against less numerous Serbs, or siding with less numerous Serbs (that had some dissatisfaction against Croats) against much stronger Hungarians.
Kamarad Walter (
talk) 23:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree, ElsswothSK. Croats that fought on Hungarian side were part of Hungarian units. I haven't seen in sources that there were some particular Croat units in Hungarian army.
I disagree with user Baxter9 that made an revert
[1] and left Wikipedia, without discussing his action. Triune Kingdom existed before Croatian-Hungarian Agreement.
[2]
"Hrvatsko plemstvo bilo je zatečeno agresivnošću mađarske politike, ali joj je pružalo odlučan otpor u skladu s politikom formuliranom banskim protestom izrečenim u samom Ugarskom saboru: »Regnum regno non praescribit leges!«...Ono je branilo svoj kolektivni identitet kao staleška »natio croatica«. Branilo je zasebni politički identitet političkog teritorija i svoj položaj nositelja njegova suvereniteta, nepovredivost »realnog« teritorija Hrvatske i Slavonije te prava na obnovu teritorijalne cjelovitosti »Kraljevina Dalmacije, Hrvatske i Slavonije«. Njegov hrvatski staleški protonacionalizam manifestirao se i u uporabi jedinstvenoga hrvatskog imena za tu »trojednu kraljevinu«. U svojoj su se izjavi u Ugarskome saboru protiv uvođenja mađarskoga jezika hrvatski nunciji 1790. izjasnili kao »nunciji Kraljevine Hrvatske« (»nuncii Regni Croatiae«), izričito napominjući da pod jedinstvenim imenom »regnum Croatiae« razumijevaju teritorij pod povijesnim imenom »Regna Dalmatiae, Croatiae et Slavoniae«"
Translation of the last sentence;
"In 1790, In Hungarian Diet, in their declaration against introduction of Hungarian language in Kingdom of Croatia, Croatian deputees have declared themselves as nuncii Regni Croatiae, nuntius of Kingdom of Croatia, explicitly noting that under common name "regnum Croatiae" they mean the territory under historical name "Regna Dalmatiae, Croatiae et Slavoniae" (Kingdoms of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia).
I believe that this is also available in Hungarian literature.
Kamarad Walter (
talk) 17:03, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
There is too less content in 1848–1849 massacres in Transylvania, there is no need to create a separate article for a content that could be included in other already existing ones ( Iaaasi ( talk) 14:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC))
Disagree. This is essentially the head article for all the topics about the battles, the people and so forth, of which I and my partner have translated very faithfully from the head article. I think it needs to stands as the head article for others to link. I am trying to improve the links, if SmackBot doesn!t keep taking them all out again. I have complained about this to the owner of that bot, and not to my surprise got absolutely no response at all. Si Trew ( talk) 12:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
The topics on the various battles, the biographies of the people involved etc, are written in British English as I happen to be British. This subject is in American English, and I have no problem with that as such, but I think it would flow smoother if it were put into British English.
I should appreciate your views. Si Trew ( talk) 12:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
in the Sources section. I always struggle to get these right. If you can, please do.
Si Trew (
talk) 03:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The article claims "After securing all of Transylvania, Bem moved his 30,000–40,000-man Hungarian army against Austrian forces in the northern Banat capturing the city of Temesvár (now Timişoara, Romania)". Although Engels is mentioned as a source for this, it never happened. While the city was under siege from hungarian revolutionary forces, the imperial garrison held the city until it was successfully relieved by Haynau, after he won the battle of Temesvar against Bem, just as the linked article states. Dead-cat ( talk) 08:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
What is with all the loaded politicking? First of all politics is not a straight line as most in the US think, second it is almost impossible to map 1848 political spectrum to today's; so why the need to use these slanted high-inference language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.121.242 ( talk) 15:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Why do you thing that monatary and fiscal status is "out of context" ? Litricsor ( talk) 12:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
In this article the Russian forces entering Hungary are dismissed as less of ten thousand people, easily won by the patriots. In the article "Revolutions of 1848" it is said that Russian soldiers were over than 300.000. The difference is big and unavoidable. I think Russians were at least 190.000 and, mainly, were determining in crushing the Hungarian troops, since Austrian army was engaged against other uprisings. Lele giannoni ( talk) 12:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Some of the article looks to be copied from scanned documents, given odd typographic errors such as "Paris reached Pressburg 1 (March i)" and "I3" instead of "13" for a date. The language of those same paragraphs also reads less like neutral journalism. Sorry to come and nitpick, instead of just rewriting the content, but I thought it would be worth calling out in case someone is inspired to look for plagiarism. Owlmonkey ( talk) 17:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
a. "Article X of 1790". What treaty or other instrument is being referenced? b. What is a "Hungarian Diet"? Presumably, not the latest fad in weight loss. Should this link to another page describing what it is? (Later note: a link appears later in the paragraph to the Diet of Hungary.) c. What is a "rescript"? Ditto link to another page. d. A word of explanation of "the common monarch" would be welcome since this paragraph makes it clear at the start that Hungary was a separate monarchy. Common and separate mean different, nearly opposite, things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.45.182.9 ( talk) 21:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Wrong. Common Monarch can rule legally independent countries. Have you ever heard about Personal union? It was frequent phenomenon in England Hungary France HRE Spain and in many other European countries. -- Konglich ( talk) 19:26, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I mean this:
the forces of reactionary absolutism were everywhere supreme. But beneath the surface a strong popular current was beginning to run in a contrary direction. Hungarian society, not unaffected by western Liberalism, but without any direct help from abroad, was preparing for the future emancipation. Writers, savants, poets, artists, noble and plebeian, layman and cleric, without any previous concert, or obvious connection...
I am slapping "personal essay" tag on it. Zezen ( talk) 23:24, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Is it a translation from Hungarian? I tried to at least fix the grammar, see my changes, but got stuck at:
In contrast, Kossuth believed that the society could not be forced into a passive role by any reasons through the social changing.
I do not grok it, so I stop and leave it to our Hungarian speaking colleagues to elucidate. Ping me when the article can be read in extenso, please. Zezen ( talk) 23:39, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
I added this tag public domain:
Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911).
Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. {{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
Rjensen (
talk) 23:52, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
2. Do you understand the second quote then?
1. What I mean by bombastic: "reactionary absolutism were everywhere supreme. But beneath the surface a strong popular current... "
The style is not elegant. It is not encyclopedic. It is not objective. It should be rewritten. Zezen ( talk) 00:42, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Bombastic or not, but the first quote is from the "Hungary" article of the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911. (Which is free to use in Wikipedia) We don't need transform it, just keep the original. It is an archaic, but good English. Reactionary means pro-feudal or anti-liberal in the era. During the era communist dictature, the "reactinoary" means capitalist liberal or even nazi in the books of Eastern European authors.
"they forgot to throw in the Khlysty nuns, folk dancers, babies in the cradle and Gypsy circus performers thereto" These had no effects on the contemporary societies and politics.
Yes, utmost all contemporary Western (English French American etc..) authors , encylopedias considered the Habsburgs and Russians, as the "evil dark forces" of the feudalism, because they crushed the liberal bourgeois revolutions. -- CTVRTLANIK 1975 ( talk) 16:36, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hungarian Revolution of 1848/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Felhívnám mindenki figyelmét,hogy a kokárda színei fordítva vannak/the cockade's colors are inverse,now it's more like an Italian one. |
Last edited at 16:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 18:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
"It's an old tradition (although nowadays not held by everyone) that Hungarians do not clink beer glasses or beer bottles. This is due to the legend that Austrians celebrated the execution of the 13 Hungarian Martyrs in 1849 by clinking their beer glasses, so Hungarians vowed not to clink with beer for 150 years." https://www.gapyear.com/countries/hungary/local-customs Marcin862 ( talk) 16:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
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A sentence from the section "American Civil War" appears incomplete a fragment with the problem is included below. Likely intent was "of this comparatively small number [ there were 999? ] who rose to the rank of", with 999 clearly needing to be set to an accuratish number.
"... testimony to the military qualities of the Magyar people that of this comparatively small number who rose to the rank of Major-General, while five became Brigadier-Generals, fifteen Colonels, two Lieutenant-Colonels, ..." Ronaldws r+d ( talk) 14:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Are not WP:RS for claims of historical fact or for that matter for anything other possibly their own views (though even that - “what did Marx and Engels really mean?” - is an entire secondary literature onto itself). Aside from obvious bias, they’re also outdated and close to the events. Volunteer Marek 01:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Marx and Engels are not reliable sources. They have strong ideological biases against non-Magyar and non-German groups e.g. 'In Austria, apart from Poland and Italy, it is the Germans and Magyars in 1848, as during the past thousand years already, who have assumed the historical initiative. They represent the revolution.
The Southern Slavs, who for a thousand years have been taken in tow by the Germans and the Magyars, only rose up in 1848 to achieve their national independence in order thereby at the same time to suppress the German-Magyar revolution. They represent the counter-revolution. They were joined by two nations, which had likewise long ago degenerated and were devoid of all historical power of action: the Saxons and the Rumanians of Transylvania.' ( https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1849/01/13.htm) Unfortunately, most Magyar publications from the communist era are biased in the same ways; the Orbán government promotes similar narratives. The solution is to use contemporary, non-nationalist sources that provide a much more comprehensive, measured account of events e.g. Rady (who happens to be Hungarian, as do I); Judson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.150.38.31 ( talk) 02:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Marx and Engels were even restrained about the situation in Hungary when compared to the liberal politicians and intellectuals of the Western democratic free world of the time (USA, UK, France). In the eyes of the free democratic world of the West, the Habsburgs and their helping nationalities were depicted as the bad guys and the bad villains.-
The contemporary Western perception of Tsar Alexander or Nicholas were no better than that of Putin, and the perception of Franz Joseph was no different from that of Lukashenko-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 10:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
OrionNimrod ( talk) 09:09, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Hungarian Revolutuon of 1848. The discussion is about the topic revisions. Thank you. LotusEating ( talk) 06:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
This page needs a lot of work. The latest edits go some way to improving it, citing contemporary scholarship from a varied range of sources, including world experts on the topic at hand. The original cites Friedrich Engels and Karl Marx, ideologues with clear biases against Romanians and Slavs. The contemporary sources are also much less bombastic and emotive. 144.138.60.195 ( talk) 12:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia asks people to improve the article - let's do it in good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.60.195 ( talk) 12:02, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The communist Marx and Engles are relatively calm towards the nationalties which helped the Habsburgs and Tzars, but the Western European and American liberals of the era had even a much more negative attitude towards the pro-Habsburg nationalities than Marx or Engels.. It is enough to read contemporary British American or French newspapers about the events in Hungary-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 11:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
These ethnic groups had very backward social development, thus they did not even have well developed and specialized newspapers.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 22:31, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
"(FWIW, British, American, and French newspapers of course gave a range of views)" Wrong idea, of course there were so-called "range of views", like there are pro- Putin views in some negligible western newspapers nowadays, but the was majority of newspapers and news portals TV companies are against Putin. That was the case in the Habsburg - Hungarian conflict of 1848-49.
Romanians and Serbians were Orthodox countries, which had not better societal infrastructural and cultural development level than a typical Asian British or French colony. Learn about it, especially worth to memorize the 16 points: https://orthodox-eurasian-civiliazation.blogspot.com/2021/02/the-asianization-of-greco-roman.html
-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 16:15, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
"Western European public opinion and newspapers were much more evenly split than today." It is just wishful thinking. The free and democratic world (US UK France) condemned the absolutist Habsburgs and their helper nationalities , as the enemies of the democratic ideas and freedom. With modern American slandg, they were the "bad guys". My sources are not a political blog, because it is written by academic historians, and not simple journalists. "Historians use them to develop better accounts of events." Unfortunatelly they do not represent the contemporary Western democratic public opinion. That1s why Lajos Kossuth was welcomed as a demigod, physical embodiment of freedom and democracy in Western countries during his American British etc. jouney.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 21:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Lajos Kossuth, a Hungarian political leader and statesman, played a significant role in the Hungarian Revolution of 1848-1849. After the revolution was suppressed by the Austrian Empire, Kossuth sought refuge in the United States and later visited the United Kingdom. His visit to these countries garnered considerable attention and resulted in a range of reactions. While I don't have access to real-time information, I can provide you with an overview of the reception Kossuth received in the USA and the UK based on historical accounts up until September 2021.
Reception in the United States: 1. United States Congress: Kossuth's visit to the United States in 1851 was met with great enthusiasm. He was invited to address the United States Congress, becoming the first foreign leader to do so. His speech received a standing ovation, and he was widely praised for his commitment to liberty and democracy. 2. Public Support: Kossuth's visit sparked widespread public support, particularly among those sympathetic to the cause of Hungarian independence and democracy. His speeches drew large crowds, and he was hailed as a champion of freedom. 3. Media Coverage: Kossuth's visit received extensive media coverage. Newspapers published his speeches, and his activities were reported on a daily basis. The media generally portrayed him positively, emphasizing his fight against oppression and his eloquence as a speaker.
Reception in the United Kingdom:
Public and Intellectual Support: Despite the government's reservations, Kossuth received significant support from the British public and intellectual circles. Many British liberals and intellectuals admired his struggle for Hungarian independence and democratic ideals. Public meetings and rallies were organized in his honor, demonstrating the support he enjoyed among the British people. 3. Media Coverage: Kossuth's visit received substantial media coverage in the United Kingdom. Newspapers reported on his speeches and activities, and his message of liberty and national self-determination resonated with many readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hefty-priced ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Yes, it was only the southern elite (slave owners) who were against Kossuth. It tells a lot about the situation.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 09:21, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
Orionimrod, you can't even understand the reason why was Americans and Brits mentioned. I just try to teach the very simple fact, that the public opinion of free and democratic world (the West) supported the Hungarian Revolution, and condemned the unconstitutional and unlawful deeds of the absolutist Habsburgs.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 12:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Hungarian Revolutuon of 1848. The discussion is about the topic topic. Thank you. LotusEating ( talk) 06:12, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Hungary did not want independence from Austrian Emppire, because simply Hungary was not really part of that Empire. You can read the details of legal history here: in the historical background section: /info/en/?search=Austro-Hungarian_Compromise_of_1867#Historical_background
The first phase was the Batthiány government, where the Hungarian government strugled for democracy and freedom, and which were bonded to the revolutionary ideas, but it was still loyal to the Habsburgs as Monarchs. (Hungary that time did not relate to the Austrian empire, it was just a mere personal union based on the person of the monarch. The strugle was related to the preservation of the April laws
Second phase was the Szemere Goverment, where Lajos Kossuth became head of state. It started as a reaction to the illegal/unlawful March Constitution (Austria). The independence war started with the Szemere government.-- Hefty-priced ( talk) 09:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
The claim is controversial, and the source is the Hungarian Conservative, a political website. https://web.archive.org/web/20230730110111/https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/culture_society/hungary_europe_liberal_conservative_foreign_policy_reform_era/. I suggest removing the claim till we can find a source that does not violate NPOV. LotusEating ( talk) 06:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Some time has passed since I suggested good faith edits and the page remains in a poor state. If there is no way to get nationalists to agree to substantive changes in line with contemporary scholarship, can we at least remove the political language? (e.g. "reactionary" Slovak forces)? LotusEating ( talk) 05:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Reactionary means anti revolutionary and pro-Habsburg.
I suggest to read that Book. Hungary was not an Austrian province, it became Austrian province only after 1849.
Photo of page 22: https://i.ibb.co/yY6P9w0/k-p.png
Constitutional Law in Hungary By Zoltán Szente · 2022
ISBN: 9789403544427, 9403544422 Page count: 360 Published: September 20, 2022 Format: ebook Publisher: Wolters Kluwer
-- Mandliners ( talk) 06:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)