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I noticed that since Prevalence and legality of homeopathy was forked off, the word "allopathy" no longer appears in this article. As it is in some sense the opposite of homeopathy we should really discuss it. When I looked for a good place to put it in, I realised that there is no section discussing the relation of homeopathy to mainstream medicine. I think there are a few things to be said: E.g. that homeopathy branched off before mainstream medicine became scientific; hostility of many homeopaths to some elements of mainstream medicine and pejorative use of the word "allopathy". If we name it more inclusively, we could also move the current subsections on isopathy, tautopathy and flower remedies there. Any thoughts? -- Hans Adler ( talk) 15:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Hans, you're opening a can of worms, count me out! Though allopathy has a precise origin and meaning, you will have a hard time explaining that and balancing it against those who detest the term as a form of insult, which I don't think it was originally intended to have but which it soon acquired and has had for many decades. Good luck on trying to find consensus on this topic! Peter morrell 16:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
This discussion is now spread over two places. A couple of editors discussed changes to the lede, intending to make it more POV (see ideas vs. theories). After a consensus was reached and these changes were implemented, QuackGuru appeared and complained (see controversial edit). CKCortez jumped in and escalated the situation by reverting to the previous version, giving reasons that could have been taken in account by simply replacing "in particular" with "for example". I suggest that everybody continues the discussion under this heading now to keep it in one place. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 08:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone has just reinstated the following text: "In particular, the common use of remedies that are so highly diluted that they contain no molecules of the substance being diluted is in contradiction to basic principles of chemistry and medicine". This is a hand-waving statement since it does not cite these basic principles. It is also incorrect. One basic principle of medicine, as stated in the Hippocratic Oath is First, do no harm. The point of dilution is to ensure that the homeopathic medicine is not harmful and so it is consistent with this basic principle. The placebo effect also seems a fairly fundamental aspect of medicine too, being well recognised in medical studies. By this principle, it is is better to give a placebo than no medicine at all.
So, since this statement is wrong and is unsupported, I am removing it. Colonel Warden ( talk) 05:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
So since these supposed principles have neither been produced or are inappropriate and we still have no citation, I am removing this controversial statement again. Colonel Warden ( talk) 05:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Enric, in fact the dilutions thing is well covered; the main arguing point today is about principles: whose principles, what principles and how/if they are being abrogated. Both sides seem to have a point IMO. Question is, does the present wording suffice or does it need changing? If the latter, by how much and to what? thanks Peter morrell 07:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
That said, and I agree up to a point, how do you reckon the present wording need changing to reflect these ideas? Peter morrell 07:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
There are good sources that say homeopathy has fixed & reliable principles that have never changed and cannot change. Science is questioning and pragmatic, true, but it has gathered around it a range of apparent 'principles' along the way and it seems to know sharply what is probably true and what is false in its own view. However, to compare homeopathy with ordinary medicine is perhaps a better task than bringing science in at all as medicine is not even 50% a true science, and so it complicates things to compare homeopathy with science rather than with mainstream medicine. For example, the biomedical worldview relies heavily on biochemistry even though things happen in a living organism that do not happen in test-tubes and so the gulf between the two is very real and so it is clear that a biochemical view of an organism cannot predict the complex interactions, etc that will occur. This is just one reason why medicine is not a hard science like lab-based, test-tube chemistry. Perhaps we can delineate more clearly what purpose we are serving in this discussion? The idea was to improve the wording and somehow say that homeopathy abrogates certain key science principles. Apart from high dilutions, I cannot see what these so-called principles are, let alone find sources to illustrate the contention. Peter morrell 08:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I suspect this is really a semantics issue. What are "principals"?, what is "contradiction"? and so forth. What I think we are looking for is a way to say "according to what we know about the natural world, homeopathy is not possible" without being PoV. Obviously that's a hopelessly badly put sentence, but I think that's the essence of what people are trying to say. Jefffire ( talk) 08:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree but we need to identify more clearly what those principles in conflict actually are. Until then it all remains mysteriously vague. I have my own ideas on that but want to see what others can come up with first. Sorry that's a deliberate tease! Peter morrell 09:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Where we are now: The longstanding version has been replaced by a new one that several editors agreed was more neutral. The new version was changed in one direction (revert to previous version) by CKCortez, which was undone, and then in the opposite direction (removal of a sentence) by Colonel Warren, which was also undone. We now have the new version with minor changes by QuackGuru. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 09:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Homeopathy is scientifically implausible. For example, homeopathic remedies are so highly diluted that they are unlikely to contain any molecules of their active ingredient.
The first sentence is already cited and the second is presumably verifiable. Colonel Warden ( talk) 10:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but you've got it wrong, the original sentence said: "The ideas behind homeopathy are scientifically implausible and directly opposed to fundamental principles of natural science and modern medicine." So, I'm afraid you have to state what these alleged "fundamental principles of natural science and modern medicine," actually are, which some folks say homeopathy is directly opposed to. Unless you do that you cannot put back into the article the above sentence. What is more, you need to cite that exact phrase or give sources that parrot the idea. We have previously agreed about the implausible clause but not the principles clause. thanks Peter morrell 10:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that's OK then. No problem. But Jefffire seemed to think there is an issue on that. Maybe he will let us know. Peter morrell 10:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but you also earlier said: "according to what we know about the natural world, homeopathy is not possible," and that is precisely the issue. Who 'knows' what and how does that cause homeopathy to be so 'impossible' as you put it? You either want to say homeopathy is in conflict with natural science or you don't. Choose what you want. If you do want that phrase in the article then you have got to delineate what the scientific principles are that homeopathy abrogates. Simple. If you don't, then we leave it out entirely as CW said. Hope that's now clearer. Peter morrell 11:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
(EC x 2) Well, I think there is an issue with leaving it out completely. While I see that the principles clause is highly problematic, I don't see a chance to get a stable article while leaving it out altogether. (In my opinion it's because of some scientists who make the wrong equation my POV as a scientist = majority scientists' POV = scientific POV and cannot distinguis between scientific statements and statements about science.) The current wording seems to be the best we can do for the moment. I don't think it is productive to discuss this further right now, in the context of the lede, where we are under additional external restrictions. These things should be addressed in detail in the body of the article, and then the lede should be an accurate summary of the consensus that we will have established there. But for this we need the kind of constructive atmosphere that we won't have if either side feels overrun by the other. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 11:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can determine, only one source has been offered to support the wording "contradiction", namely,
Johnson T, Boon H (2007). " Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American journal of pharmaceutical education 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507.
(This is reference 125 in the current version, but at some point got detached from the "contradiction" statement.) The relevant parts of this reference read
[Homeopathy] is a system of medicine that has been in widespread use for the last 200 years, the theory of which is diametrically opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge and theories.6-8
and
The fundamental tenets of homeopathy are completely different from modern medicine, pharmacology, and chemistry.10 Main sources of contention include: the implausibility of homeopathic principles; the lack of a proven or plausible mechanism of action for homeopathy; and mixed results from randomized, controlled trials on homeopathic preparations. These conflicts, coupled with the existence of some high-quality trials that did not show a benefit with homeopathy have caused many pharmacists to conclude that homeopathy is nothing more than quackery.1,10-13
These statements from the "INTRODUCTION" are tempered by some later statements, such as this one from the end of the section on "PHYSICAL EXPERIMENTS IN DILUTION RESEARCH":
In short, physical experiments have demonstrated a variety of possible mechanisms for the transmission and preservation of therapeutic properties in highly diluted solutions. Taken together, these findings may lead to a mechanism for how homeopathic medications act and interact on a molecular level.
I am bothered by several things here.
It would be helpful if someone with access to a medical library could check the content and wording of these references. (I couldn't find them online.)
I would like to see language that is either
-- Art Carlson ( talk) 11:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well these are not very high grade sources, are they? What pharmacists think of homeopathy cannot really be projected into saying what all scientists think, can it? So I would hold fire on that aspect, as Hans said previously, (a) until we can find better (higher grade) sources and (b) until we can discuss its inclusion not in the lead but somewhere in the main article. thanks Peter morrell 11:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Art, thanks for a very strong and apparently well-researched statement that I agree with. I didn't want to start this discussion now, but apparently it had to be. So I will second what you say, except that I would like to change Colonel Warden's version to "many homeopathic remedies" or "most homeopathic remedies", whichever is correct and can be sourced. Without this qualification it is incorrect because harmless stuff like arnica is often used in dilutions of 1/10-1/10000. See [2] for an example. I think we should make such a minor change before addressing the real controversy, to avoid running into trouble later. Nevertheless I still suggest playing out further down in the article first. (You were probably busy with the research while I proposed that, so perhaps you can say what you think about the idea.) -- Hans Adler ( talk) 11:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Huh? Perhaps you can explain what "bank it" means? plainspeak preferred thank you Peter morrell 13:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Yes, I agree with you. Peter morrell 14:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is missing reference to many meta-analyses in highly respected medical journals. In this light, I am recommending the following addition to this article. You will note that I have integrated some critique of some of these meta-analyses. It is strange that this article ignores the impressive and high quality work of Reilly, the Cochrane review of clinical trials on Oscillococcinum in the treatment of the flu, and the 3 studies on childhood diarrhea by Jacobs and team. The first sentence below is taken directly from the article here, though I have added my recommendations for what should be said next. DanaUllman Talk 03:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Most of these analyses say that the evidence found was not good enough to come to definitive conclusions and call for more good quality research, and several are 8 years or more old, so we also need to consider more recent results, such as the attempt by Lewith et al. to repeat Reilly's results [3], which concluded that while there were some unexplained differences between the groups, "homoeopathic immunotherapy is not effective in the treatment of patients with asthma". In the case of the 2007 analysis of in-vitro studies, as well as saying that the results were not consistently reproduced, the abstract (I haven't seen the actual paper yet) also appears to cast doubt on the quality of the trials: "A general adoption of succussed controls, randomization and blinding would strengthen the evidence of future experiments". This suggests that these were not generally adopted in the studies considered. Brunton ( talk) 12:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Just to point out what I already wrote at Talk:Homeopathy/Selection of studies: I attempted to pull together reliable secondary sources a few months ago: here's the archive of it...nobody responded to my work. Everything I list there is a review or meta-analysis. — Scien tizzle 15:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Linde '97 has been destroyed by reviewers and is contradicted by later, better work. In vitro assays, frankly, don't mean crap when it comes to clinical efficacy. The reason Homeopathy doesn't have support in the medical literature is all those caveats that even the positive reviews have to place: low reliability, power, and repeatability...and vanishing effects as these increase. — Scien tizzle 15:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Brunton is correct about the mistakes made by Enric about the Linde meta-analyses. The 1994 meta-analysis focused on 105 studies in environmental toxicology, and we achieved some consensus on it at Arsenicum album. I generally appreciate the work and mind of User:Scientizzle, but I think he is erring here. The point of doing homeopathic in-vitro studies is first and foremost to simply show that homeopathic doses have a greater effect than a placebo, and there is now a significant body of replication evidence here to confirm this, though as I also note in my description of the Witt (2007) review, no study has been replicated by ALL workers. User:Scientizzle wrote that Linde's 1997 meta-analysis was "destroyed by reviewers," but I am quite confident (though not certain) that he is not correct here. The review of research that has received the most significant criticism has been the 2005 Shang review. As for the Linde 1997 article, the Lancet published an editorial along with the meta-analysis that attacked the results simply because he asserted that all homeopathic research is "a game of chance between two placebos", but he also acknowledged and confirmed that "The meta-analysis is completely state of the art." [8] Obviously, the writer of this editorial is very antagonistic to homeopathy, and yet, he had the highest compliments for the work of Linde and team. That said, my original writing above includes reference to Linde 1999 article in which I wrote: The authors later analyzed these trials and concluded that higher quality trials were less likely to be positive than those of lower quality, though they acknowledged that this is true of conventional medical research too, saying in the first sentence of the article, “There is increasing evidence that more rigorous trials tend to yield less optimistic results than trials with less precautions against bias.” As for the 2005 reference to Linde saying that homeopaths should not say that his work "proved" homeopathy. No meta-analysis can "prove" all of homeopathy, so Linde's statement is relatively meaningless. In fact, Linde has NOT conducted a newer analysis, and based on his original work and his updated comments, we can and should still say that his work shows that the placebo explanation is inadequate for explaining if and how homeopathic medicines work. As his 1997 work highlighted, the 26 high quality clinical trials still had a 1.66 odds ratio, suggesting that the effect from homeopathic medicines was greater than that of placebo. Ultimately, my writing above sought diligently to maintain RS and NPOV. Please read again in the light of this information. DanaUllman Talk 03:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Max that there should be SOME balanced mention of these studies and that they should be covered by every viewpoint of their interpretation so the reader can access them and make their own mind up. Even though they present a complex problem, they should at least get some mention somewhere, either in the main article or in that daughter article of studies. Peter morrell 07:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
So it's OR to describe a controversy then is it? What happens in other wiki articles where there is strong controversy, such as Intelligent design and Creationism? Are you saying that those articles are composed entirely of OR and are thus worthless? That seems to be the logical consequence of what you are saying. We should surely be able to say something fairly neutral about a bunch of trials. Or is that too much to expect? Peter morrell 08:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
OK no isue with all that but I suspect what Jefffire was saying is that even to make a choice of which studies to include involves a bias. And he is right about that. My point simply was that to place something in the article is better than placing nothing. Myriad trials exist as also do their interpreters. It is undoubtedly a minefield, a can of worms, but some mention of all aspects of that should be included in the article. How we make choices and what goes in is then up for discussion. Hopefully, as Hans says, this balance can be achieved through give and take, consensus and mutual respect. Peter morrell 09:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Friends, remember that all scientific theories are falsified all the time. There will always be a few studies with contradictory results and a few phenomena that are unexplained. Just because a few studies show that homeopathy has an effect does not mean that the entire body of established scientific knowledge has to be discarded. The actual practice of science is not strict Popperian. Look at Lakatos [10] for a deeper discussion. The pro science camp can relax. Including a few studies with positive results is not a proof that homeopathy works. I think that the pro-homeo studies can be mentioned and referenced in a narrative with disclaimers. MaxPont ( talk) 07:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Here is the abstract for this item: "Homeopathy is a popular but implausible form of medicine. Contrary to many claims by homeopaths, there is no conclusive evidence that highly dilute homeopathic remedies are different from placebos. The benefits that many patients experience after homeopathic treatment are therefore most probably due to nonspecific treatment effects. Contrary to widespread belief, homeopathy is not entirely devoid of risk. Thus, the proven benefits of highly dilute homeopathic remedies, beyond the beneficial effects of placebos, do not outweigh the potential for harm that this approach can cause."
It expresses an opinion, but does not seem to support the contention that homeopathy is in contradiction of scientific principles. Perhaps someone can check the full article and give here the exact phrase that says this? Also, notably, Ernst is not an RS author as he has expressed such OPINIONS many times before and garners no respect and much derision within alt. med circles not to mention that he also regualrly cites his own articles and those of his co-workers (self-citation rates of over 70% are common in his articles) while his work is rarely cited by anyone else in alt.med outside his circle. I would therefore suggest that this cite be rigorously scrutinised to check if it actually supporits the contention it has been placed to support today. Peter morrell 17:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The NCAHF source rules. I quote: "Homeopathy conflicts more with basic laws of physics, chemistry and pharmacology than with clinical medicine." and several other assertions. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 20:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, it must say which alleged laws are abrogated and we must have an A1 source. We should have good neutral sources to support such a substantive claim. Peter morrell 08:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Art Carlson has raised the important issue on which of the almost 400 reviews and meta-analyses should we use...I suggest that we use 3-5 that are the best that show positive effects from homeopathy and the same number that show negative results. That is what a good encyclopedia would do. DanaUllman Talk 21:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This could then effectively lead into the rest of the "Medical and scientific analysis" section. — Scien tizzle 22:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)Proponents point to reviews/meta-analyses that claim efficacy in treating condition1[link] and condition2,[link] and are not likely to be the result of placebo.[link] These studies have been criticized for ___.[link(s)]...
I see three possibilities here:
-- Art Carlson ( talk) 13:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Efficacy of Homeopathic treatment It is a fact that there are high quality studies on Homeopathy which show a therapeutic effect. Different reliable sources already in the current article refer to it. For example: Basic science research appears to suggest that the use of extremely dilute solutions may not be as implausible as has been claimed. Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not.28-30,80-82 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17429507 The results of individual, controlled clinical trials of homeopathy have been contradictory. In some trials, homeopathy appeared to be no more helpful than a placebo; in other studies, some benefits were seen that the researchers believed were greater than one would expect from a placebo.f Appendix I details findings from clinical trials. http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q8 Hence the phrase claims for efficacy of homeopathy treatment.is false and it should be modified. It is more neutral to also add to the lead what these these already cited in the article reliable sources state.-- Area69 ( talk) 22:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
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We've discussed this many times before. Most recent discussion along these lines in the archives was here, and you'll notice that people were already tired of discussing it then. -- Infophile (Talk) (Contribs) 17:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I've not been active in this topic, so this may seem like a dumb question but: Why is this talk page semi-protected? Only in rare circumstances should a talk page be protected at all. I'm inquiring before asking for unprotection because I'm assuming there was a good reason for the protection. Thanks! Vassyana ( talk) 00:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
According to Google Scholar this article is from 2001 and has something to do with the "National Council Against Health Fraud". It seems that Stephen Barrett's qualification is being a practising psychiatrist. Apart from the online version on quackwatch.org there is also a PDF version hosted on an academic personal homepage. Is this really a reliable source? I was under the impression that we had higher standards for the homeopathy article. For comparison: How about the articles available from [15]? Is it OK to cite them? -- Hans Adler ( talk) 20:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
It is in no way surprising to me that such a sweeping, unscientific claim cannot be sourced to a peer-reviewed journal. -- Hmm. This is akin to saying that intelligent design isn't criticized by any mainstream peer-reviewed papers. While in point of fact true, it misses the issue. Pseudoscience like homeopathy, intelligent design, UFOlogy, etc. doesn't get criticized in peer-reviewed journals because that's not what peer-reviewed journals are for. To illustrate the outright inadequacies of these pseudosciences, we need only reference sources that match the claims. In this case, since the homeopathic claim that diluting a remedy to the point where it is pure water is an effective means of increasing potency are not ever mentioned in peer-reviewed sources, the criticisms do not need to be made in peer reviewed sources. ScienceApologist ( talk) 13:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I have full access to Park, Robert L. Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud. Oxford University Press (2000). Since it is published by a highly respected university press, it may be more generally considered reliable and less contentious than QuackWatch. If people would like information from that source, please let me know and I will provide some quotations, as I did for the source below. Cheers! Vassyana ( talk) 16:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Reply to ScienceApologist (I didn't check my watchlist until now): You really got me into thinking there. The analogy is a good one and made me think whether I really like all the consequences of my way of reasoning, so I looked at the ID article. Its second paragraph is very clear and effective, so if there is no peer-reviewed criticism of ID it seems that it wasn't a problem other than (presumably) making it harder to get to a balanced article.
While I am absolutely sure that no gods exist outside the imaginations of people, I can see no way of "proving" their non-existence scientifically. And assuming their existence, for the sake of argument, I can see no way of "proving" that they are not messing with evolution. We can't prove such things, so we need to invoke Occam's razor to reach conclusions of this nature. Therefore the parallel statements would have no place in the ID article either, e.g.: "The ideas of intelligent design contradict basic principles of science." No, ID (and homeopathy) are in the residual waste of Occam's razor, no more, no less. This doesn't mean that they contradict something.
That said, I am relatively happy with the current version, anyway, and this thread was triggered only by what I consider risqué sourcing. But this has been fixed. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 09:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
No-one is disputing that comment but there is a big gulf between saying that high potencies are dismissed by mainstream science (which does indeed seems obvious) and from saying that homeopathy contradicts the fundamental laws of science and medicine. What fundamental laws and how are they infringed? Sorry to keep repeating the same point, but it has still not been answered after a week or two of asking. The simple fact is that we have no such RS source which states how homeopathy abrogates any physical or chemical laws whatsoever, except the high potency issue. It really is a very strong statement unsupported by an RS cite. That sums up the issue, I think. Peter morrell 13:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Some interesting bits. I'll leave it to the editors here to incorporate them, or not.
(Material moved. See below.)
Just an interesting source I came across. Vassyana ( talk) 20:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, and it is about time that some respect was shown for a profession and a therapy that has been so beneficial to so many. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad my find was useful. :) I have pretty good library access, so I will see what I do to dig up a few more sources. If I find some good additional sources, I will place some quotes from the sources in a subpage to avoid cluttering the talk page itself too much. Vassyana ( talk) 00:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Comment. I've made a sub-page to place quotes from various sources: /Sources001. Vassyana ( talk) 08:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
They were simply quotes that I found interesting about the topic. I leave it to those more familiar with the topic and active in this article to reach a consensus about what to use or not. As I mention, if anyone needs something in particular or wants to know what one of the sources already provided says about something, I can dig through the sources available to me to see if I can help. Regarding NPOV, one cannot really say a source is NPOV or non-NPOV. It is not a measure of detachment or neutrality. Rather, NPOV is little more than ensuring that our presentation is approximately reflective of the body of reputable works as a whole. To oversimplify, imagine that 1/3 of the reputable sources state that homeopathy relies on placebo effect, 1/3 state that it show strong signs of effectiveness and 1/3 state there are mixed results & that efficacy is unlikely. In such an instance, the balance of the article should be evenly split between all three viewpoints. Excluding detractors and/or supporters is not NPOV. We should give appropriate weight to each view based on how much of the reliable literature it represents. Vassyana ( talk) 18:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
<continued from archive 34>
We still have conflict about the contentious statement which asserts some tendentious stuff about scientific principles. Someone tried to support this by citing the NCAHF who just seem to make similar hand-waving assertions. I do not accept them as an authority on this matter. The chap who added this source expected that the source would be challenged but added it anyway. As I understand it, they are a body similar to Wikipedia - self-appointed amateurs who self-publish. Also, since they have a relevant POV on such matters, they are obviously not impartial. Colonel Warden ( talk) 21:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The source that has now been added - Whorton's Nature Cures: The History of Alternative Medicine in America - looks to be a good one on the general subject. I'm not so sure it would be so good on the matter of scientific principles but I havent' read it. Anyway, the citation is inadequate - it provides no URL, page reference nor quotation. This is insufficient for a specific matter of detail like this. It's like citing The Bible in its entirety and saying - "well, it's in there somewhere". :) Colonel Warden ( talk) 23:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I hoped that I could end this discussion by looking up the exact place in Whorton where the current version of the statement ("[…] the common use of remedies that are so highly diluted […] is in contradiction to mainstream science's basic understanding of how nature works.") comes from and adding the pager number. I am happy with the formulation and would like to keep it as it is. But I only found the following, which is the first paragraph of the chapter on homeopathy (which is called "Dilutions of Grandeur", by the way).
[…] nineteenth-century physicians thought of another irregular system as still more unlikely. Indeed, homeopathy’s practices were so remarkably at odds with all accepted notions of how nature worked, of how nature conceivably could work, that they were only to be regarded as utterly impossible. It was "a stupendous monument of human folly"; it represented "the crowning exploit of pseudo-scientific audacity"; it constituted a fabric of "astounding absurdities" and "nonsensical trash." […] All in all, "the fact that men of sense and character should become its dupes, is one of the most striking exhibitions of intellectual stupidity and moral obliquity which the history of fanaticism itself can furnish." Homeopathy was also the most popular of all alternative systems of practice from the 1850s to the beginning of the twentieth century. —James C. Whorton, Nature Cures, p. 49
The sentence looks perfect on first sight, but there is a catch: When read in context it becomes clear that Whorton is summarising the position of contemporary scientists, not necessarily presenting his own. For more perspective, here is a later passage from the same chapter:
Much as bioenergeticists of the late twentieth century have reacted against the physical reductionism of modern medicine, many late eighteenth-century scientists, particularly in Germany, demanded that renewed attention be given to the non-material and non-quantifiable components of nature and that vitality be recognized as a mystery that transcends the physical sciences. Hahnemann’s concentration on the body’s vital force and the drug’s dynamic power were reflections of the revived study of non-material agents in nature. —James C. Whorton, Nature Cures, p. 67
Note the use of the word "scientists". As I said, I am very happy with the current version of the sentence. I think this passage gives a good explanation why I was uncomfortable with earlier, stronger statements. But unfortunately it looks as if we don't have a good source for the current version. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 10:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
It is precisely this language style that makes this article woefully objectionable. Why? It reads as an attack piece and "de-bunking" article in a "skeptics" publication. NPOV is the standard we must use. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 02:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
It is refreshing having a new voice here, Colonel Warden, who seems to have a NPOV and who might mediate between the two sides. I'm open to hearing whatever specific recommendations he has for having his article be more neutral and more encyclopedic. One of the agreed upon references to our present article is this [Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American journal of pharmaceutical education 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507.] One of its conclusions was: "Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not.28-30,80-82" Similarly, my recommendations at the top of this Talk page include making specific references to those high quality meta-analyses and reviews that have positive results and those that have had negative results. Such is so appropriate for an encyclopedia. DanaUllman Talk 04:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I have also made reference to this article [Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507] a number of times as a good example for all who desire to be editors on the Wikipedia homeopathy article. It is well written and presents both sides without bias and from a neutral point of view (NPOV). Arion 3x3 ( talk) 14:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
These artcicles are from the respectable peer reviewed journal Medical History. They could add RS for the history section. Available in fulltext at Pubmed.
Homeopathy in America. The Rise and Fall of a Medical Heresy Med Hist. 1974 January; 18(1): 99–100. PMC 1081530
Book Review: Patients in the history of homoeopathy Lyn Brierley-Jones Med Hist. 2004 October 1; 48(4): 524–526. PMC 546381
Homöopathie: Patienten, Heilkundige, Institutionen: von den Anfängen bis heute Lutz D H Sauerteig Med Hist. 1998 July; 42(3): 407–408. PMC 1044058
Weltgeschichte der Homöopathie. Länder—Schulen—Heilkundige Nicolaas Rupke Med Hist. 1997 October; 41(4): 504–505. PMC 1043948
The patient not the cure. The challenge of homoeopathy Med Hist. 1977 July; 21(3): 341. PMC 1082051
The age of science. The scientific world-view in the nineteenth century Christine Stevenson Med Hist. 1988 July; 32(3): 350–351. PMC 1139905
Becoming a physician: medical education in Britain, France, Germany, and the United States, 1750–1945 Matthew Ramsey Med Hist. 1998 April; 42(2): 249–250. PMC 1044009
MaxPont ( talk) 15:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I added what I think is a table in the discussion about dilutions. It visually summarizes the textual content within that section. In general, I think the homeopathic notation system is quite confusing and I think a chart more quickly demonstrates what the notation means in terms of volume ratios.
I don't know if including the reference to the EPA's allowed concentration of arsenic in drinking water is going to be considered NPOV, however, it is simply a statement of fact that the EPA allows drinking water to contain 10 parts per billion of arsenic in drinking water. In the context of homeopathy, which is all about using dilutions to safely administer substances that are deadly at higher concentrations, I think it is a worthwhile comparison to make. Konky2000 ( talk) 17:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I reverted a few undiscussed edits made in the night simply because they had not been proposed & discussed here first. The tradition we have grown used to with this article is to suggest and gain a consensus here first, before making any big or controversial changes to the article itself. Maybe we can now discuss the changes suggested. Peter morrell 06:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
And another undiscussed edit (well a unilateral deletion actually): Proponents of homeopathy, including Rustum Roy, maintain that water has a memory effect beyond the presence of individual molecules of the dissolved substance, [1] but this is unsupported by experimental evidence. Can we use this or is it no use? It is factually accurate but maybe needs a better source. It could have been left in and tagged, of course. Peter morrell 10:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The point is plain enough: you made an undiscussed edit without seeking any consensus first. The longstanding approach used here is to seek consensus first, which tends to avoid edit wars and personal attacks. That's all really. Peter morrell 11:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The belief in "water memory" is an important part of the pantheon of homeopathy's adherance, but we can certainly do a lot better than this semi-coherant ramble. In particular, he claims that since graphic and diamond have the same chemical make-up, that this is "proof" of homepathy is toe-curlingly stupid. If nothing else it is PoV to associate the subject with such a bad advocate. Jefffire ( talk) 14:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Talk:Homeopathy/Selection_of_studies. This was spammed everywhere by a banned user, evidently, and was formerly included at the top of the References section of this talk pages for reasons unknown - but time will tell, and sufferers like the divine Miranda... Sorry, I played Lucky in an amateur production of Waiting for Godot once. Anyway, it serves no purpose, and exists on quite a number of User talk pages anyway. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 13:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
You have not explained very clearly what is going on or why. Perhaps you can do that? What on earth is this all about and why delete a simple inoffensive list of articles? What purpose does that possibly serve the encyclopedia? Peter morrell 14:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Homeopathy. The Arbcom have specifically stated that they want to expand the scope of this case to Homeopathy pages and the article probation in general. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 14:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#DanaUllman Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 01:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
On April 1st, I posted the below recommended additions to this article, and we had some good discussion here. The material was archived before things were finalized. Scientizzle promised to recommend some compromise ideas. I'm open...
This article is missing reference to many meta-analyses in highly respected medical journals. In this light, I am recommending the following addition to this article. You will note that I have integrated some critique of some of these meta-analyses. It is strange that this article ignores the impressive and high quality work of Reilly, the Cochrane review of clinical trials on Oscillococcinum in the treatment of the flu, and the 3 studies on childhood diarrhea by Jacobs and team. The first sentence below is taken directly from the article here, though I have added my recommendations for what should be said next. DanaUllmanTalk 03:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Claims for efficacy of homeopathic treatment beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by scientific and clinical studies.[7][8][9][10] However, various meta-analysis have found a greater effect from a homeopathic medicine than a placebo [Linde K, Clausius N, Ramirez G, et al (1997). "Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials". Lancet 350 (9081): 834–43. PMID 9310601. Linde and colleagues analysed 89 trials and found a mean odds ratio of 2.45 (95% confidence interval, 2.05–2.93), in favor of homeopathy. When considering just those trials of “high quality” and after correcting for publication bias, the findings actually remained statistically significant (means odds ratio of 1.86). The main conclusion was that the results “were not compatible with the hypothesis that the effects of homoeopathy are completely due to placebo.” The authors later analyzed these trials and concluded that higher quality trials were less likely to be positive than those of lower quality, though they acknowledged that this is true of conventional medical research too, saying in the first sentence of the article, “There is increasing evidence that more rigorous trials tend to yield less optimistic results than trials with less precautions against bias.” Linde K, Scholz M, Ramirez G, et al. Impact of study quality on outcome in placebo controlled trials of homeopathy. J Clin Epidemiol 1999; 52: 631–6.] and several meta-analyses evaluating the homeopathic treatment of specific diseases has also found positive results. [Jacobs J, Jonas WB, Jimenez-Perez M, Crothers D (2003). Homeopathy for childhood diarrhea: combined results and metaanalysis from three randomized, controlled clinical trials. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, 22:229–234.] [Vickers A, Smith C (2006). Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes (Cochrane Review). In: The Cochrane Library. Chichester, UK: John Wiley & Sons, Ltd. CD001957.] [Barnes J, Resch K-L, Ernst E (1997). Homeopathy for postoperative ileus? A meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology, 25:628–633.] [Taylor MA, Reilly D, Llewellyn-Jones RH, McSharry C, Aitchison TC (2000). Randomised controlled trials of homoeopathy versus placebo in perennial allergic rhinitis with overview of four trial series. British Medical Journal, 321:471–476.] A review of 67 in vitro studies was conducted, three-fourths of which have been replicated with positive results by independent investigators. [Claudia M. Witt, Michael Bluth, Henning Albrecht The in vitro evidence for an effect of high homeopathic potencies—A systematic review of the literature. Complementary Therapies in Medicine. Volume 15, Issue 2, June 2007, Pages 128-138. doi:10.1016/j.ctim.2007.01.011] The researchers of this review concluded, “Even experiments with a high methodological standard could demonstrate an effect of high potencies.” However, they also acknowledge, “No positive result was stable enough to be reproduced by all investigators.” DanaUllman Talk 00:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Talk about SELECTIVE QUOTING! The very sentence before the one quoted by Brunton in the authors' comment in a letter published in The Lancet is this:
I will ignore your uncivil language and repeat that my point is valid. This is a case of selective quoting. The letter clearly stated: "The conclusion that physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for … further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data." [20] Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I know that. But the wrong impression that was created by your quote was that the letter in The Lancet was critical of homeopathy. What the letter also stated was:
To clarify, I was pointing out that the letter was not presenting an anti-homeopathy position as Brunton's selected quote might have led one to believe. The letter was complaining that the study should not be used to say homeopathy is "proven" (by the way, I have not seen such a claim). However, he was also stating: "The conclusion that physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data." In other words, he was saying that homeopathy has also not been disproven.
His position is close to mine. My position regarding research on homeopathy is:
(1) Homeopathy has not been disproven by research
(2) Homeopathy has not been proven by research
(3) Homeopathic research has produced mixed results
The Wikipedia article should reflect the "mixed results" status of the research, instead of leading the reader to think that homeopathy has been disproven by "science". Arion 3x3 ( talk) 23:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I do not see the value of editors criticizing of editors, instead of discussing how to improve the actual article for which the discussion page is intended. I have clearly shown that the letter was making a clear statement that homeopathy has not been disproven, yet that very fact continues to be ignored. The actual quotes were provided.
My comment had been regarding the point that the letter to The Lancet that was quoted was presented as if it was negative about homeopathy, but it actually was complaining about the tendency for either side of the homeopathic research question to consider their side to have proven their position.
The letter's MAIN point was that homeopathic research had NOT DISPROVEN homeopathy - but you would never have known that from that isolated quote that Brunton presented. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Your not liking the point does not automatically mean that it is not the main point of the letter. If someone has a mind-set that homeopathy is "obviously impossible" and all scientific research will bear out that belief - then facts might easily be overlooked. Remember, scientific inquiry cannot simply be structured to confirm one's own beliefs. That is not how discovery and advancemnent of knowledge has progressed on this world. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The atmosphere here has become extremely unpleasant and hostile of late; poisonous might be a better word. Can somebody please summarise the key issue and then suggest a way forward so folks can work more harmoniously towards improving the article? Or has that objective now become eclipsed as a side-issue to all the endless squabbling? Peter morrell 18:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
There was no "twisting" and the quotations were direct quotations. No one can seriously tell me that they do not understand the meaning of those words. Now lets get on with improving this article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Much more to the point, it has been widely agreed some days back what this article principally requires: some RS cites to show that there do exist in this world positive studies of homeopathy. The article is presenly brimful with negative studies and fair enough they need to be there, but positive ones do exist and what Arion and Dana have primarily been trying to point to, as far as I can see, is that to balance things up a little, we need to decide on and include some of those refs. Instead of endlessly bitching about which studies and who said what, or making personal attacks on other editors, or creating a very hostile atmosphere here, we would be better employed by working together to find and use the studies we need. Is that a fair summary of the current impasse? Peter morrell 11:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
You have just read a succinct summary of the problem with the homeopathy article(s). The problem is not Dana Ullman. The problem is just this kind of biased statement by one of the editors who are determined not to allow any research that is positive to homeopathy. The readers of Wikipedia are not interested in the personal opinions (or in this case mind-sets) of editors. The readers want a factually accurate and NPOV article on homeopathy. As Peter Morrell put it, here is "what this article principally requires: some RS cites to show that there do exist in this world positive studies of homeopathy." Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Shoe...I'm confused by your above statement. I described the Cochrane Report on Oscillococcinum using their words "promising." I did not write nor did they write that this research "proves blah blah blah." I'm not exactly clear where you got that quote or why you brought it up. Can you clarify, or better, simply agree that it is time to give reference to this Cochrane Report that cites four studies that show that patients given this medicine experienced relief from the flu faster than those patients given a placebo. DanaUllman Talk 21:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
On the Naturopathy Talk Page, I saw that someone complained that the Lead here reads, "Claims...............quackery at worst" and found it to be true.
Isn't it offensive to call Qualified Homeopathic Doctors Quacks?
I've been healed of Gall-stones, my father of kidney stones and my mother of piles, besides our Homeopathic Doctor seems to have a good practice.
Can't we have something titled, 'Criticism' lower down in the article and put this matter there? I mean, the Lead should be NPOV isn't it?
Happening (
talk)
07:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, I try to describe my version without breaking the copyright. In the first paragraph they distance themselves from Hahnemann's quinine experience using the words "he claimed", not "he contended". Our article seems to be uncritical in this respect, although it doesn't seem to be reproducible. They have a sentence "[…] most homeopathists believed in the action of minute doses of medicine", so they are clearly not claiming that belief in homeopathy necessarily entails belief in the part that is most well-known and easiest to debunk, as we seem to be doing.
The second (and last) paragraph in my CD version of the article says: "To many […], homeopathy was a mild, welcome alternative to bleeding, […] and other heavy-handed therapies of the day. In the 20th century, however, homeopathy has been viewed with little favour and has been criticized for focusing on the symptoms rather than on the underlying causes of disease. Homeopathy still has some adherents, and there are a number of national and international societies, including […]."
This is firm (homeopathy is an anachronism, and the only thing necessary to say about the present is that it's criticised but still practised) but not insulting (homeopathy was a mild alternative; this is slightly undermined by "to many patients and some physicians", but in an unobtrusive way).
The Encarta article can be found here. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 10:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
While we can certainly learn by analyzing it, I don't think the Britannica lead is anything we want to copy. It is true that homeopathy has sometimes "been criticized for focusing on symptoms rather than causes", it has most often been criticized for using ultramolecular doses, which is not mentioned at all in the Britannica lead. (Maybe it is a mistake.) Note also that while EB says homeopathy is criticized for "focusing on symptoms rather than causes", Encarta says in its lead that "[h]omeopathy focuses on healing the underlying cause of disease, not simply eliminating the symptoms caused by the disease." Take your pick. I'll stick with our lead and try to make it even better. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 12:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I also found that Anthony Campbell's criticism of George Vithoulkas' statement about Syphilis has been repeated.
I have not been around for a while, but I'd like some quotations considered for inclusion in the section on "General Philosophy" [22], either directly or as sources to which reference can be made.
Peter Morrell previously strongly objected to any similarity with religion being highlighted [23] and said "Yes, Kent was a highly religious man, so what? You can keep pushing this wild POV but there really is no more religion and belief in homeopathy than there is in science today. Is there a section on religion in the science article or the medicine article? According to you, there should be. That's precisely how daft your idea is. If you continue in this vein then you might even be banned. This article is under probation and prejudicial & vastly uninformed time-wasters like you are on a short leash or did you forget this? If a pro-homeo person were doing what you are doing here they would have been banned 24 hours ago."
but the following quotations make that similarity clear and accepted and they happen to have been written by Peter Morrell himself. "Modern homeopathy dwells in a nebulous and metaphysical realm into which few allopaths would fear to tread." [24] "homoeopathy is very much a `belief-system' containing many philosophical elements and ideas.""there are clear and undeniable parallels between homoeopathy and religion.""Both are systems of belief.""The power structures of a religion usually revolve around a central figure - eg the founder ""In the case of the founder of hom, Hahnemann, he is widely revered as the creator of hom, and frequently as the ultimate authority for settling disputes." [25]. I will say that I asked Peter for an internet source for his article on "Homeopathy and Religion" but he did not oblige, but I found them myself in the end. I had thought it might be a jumping off point to finding other material to be offered for inclusion here, but since it turns out to include exactly the kind of material I had in mind for inclusion as part of this topic I see no need to look further at this point.
I also think that the ideas of JG Frazer should then be included."Charms based on the Law of Similarity may be called Homoeopathic or Imitative Magic" [26] The magical thinking of homeopathic medicine involves this form of thinking. [27]
Might I ask that we reconsider the options in the article for describing the nature of the homeopathic belief system. Merely saying it is a form of vitalism is too narrow. OffTheFence ( talk) 15:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Homeopathy is NOT a religion, never has been and never will be so your point is entirely off-topic. It therefore merits no further comment. Peter morrell 11:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Peter Fisher discusses it reasonably favourably as an explanation of Homeopathy in {{doi:10.1016/j.homp.2004.07.005}}. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 15:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
That some homeopaths subscribe to a spiritual paradigm does not make homeopathy a religion either.
A religion is defined thus: a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. [29]
Homeopathy does not fit this definition. Vaguely it partially fits point 3. Science, however, conforms to points 2 and 4; therefore science is more of a religion than homeopathy! How utterly amazing. Peter morrell 15:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
"the deeper aspects of homoeopathy are, like religion, contrary to the materialistic principles that 'Scientists' would have us believe regulate material existence."
"The doctrine of the vital force fits so closely the facts of homoeopathy that it is remarkable that science has never shown much interest in the subject. One reason may be that all Vitalist theories about life come very close indeed to the spiritual, and science is never prepared to get tangled up with subjective truths. This is where religion comes in."
"In conclusion, what we can say about homoeopathy and religion is that there are some definite connections between them. They agree very broadly about the nature of man and of life, they support each other logically and they complement one another."
"In my view homoeopathy is a spiritual technique, a spiritual discipline, that heals sickness by addressing that in each of us - vital force and spirit - from which the body, was created and by which it is maintained. In this sense therefore homoeopathy is far more than a system of medicine. When practised properly it holds out to humanity a means of self-understanding, self discovery and self-help as important and as valid as any religion on earth."
"There are many who feel that their personal religious faith and beliefs - if any - are quite separate from their practice of homoeopathy and that they occupy quite separate parts of their life. Fine. That is so for them. But quite a majority of homoeopaths have endeavoured to formulate more advanced philosophies for homoeopathy, based upon a conceptual framework, derived - at least in part - from a religion. "
"In general terms one might be tempted to conclude that homoeopathy as a philosophy fits in most easily with various polytheistic religions like Hinduism and Paganism - including Druidism - and with the Oriental religious philosophies like Zen, Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism."
"What is a religion?
While leaving aside the question of what a religion is, and its function, we can say what it contains. All religions contain a number of discernible elements. Some of these are fairly obvious. Others less obvious. They include:
spiritual element, philosophical element, emotional element, belief and trust element, personal salvation element, world or humanity salvation element, mythologiocal, fantastic or poetic element, orthodox, traditional element, power structures and hierarchies, Homoeopathy also contains most of these elements. It certainly includes elements 2-5, some would also include 1 and 6. Homoeopathy has certainly had its share of 7, 8 and 9. It will be necessary therefore, to consider each of these in further detail in their own right in order to show their relation to homoeopathy."
I think that's enough to make my point. It should not have been necessary to belabour this point quite so leadenly, but Peter Morrell seems to have a major problem with having this issue raised and considered for inclusion. If anyone wants to read the rest they can follow the link I gave.
I really think that we need to move on from a basis that the philosophical basis of homeopathy needs to include a reference to its religious aspects as well as the magical ideas and vitalism. I don't think that it can be rationally said that these are not relevant or important.
And, by the way Peter Morrell, if someone was writing a general piece about the philosophy of science it would be perfectly reasonable to allude to its religious context especially in past centuries. It was a particularly feeble strawman you raised, but to explore science's historical and philosophical links with religion here really would be off-topic, but unless you have only a very narrow reading of the history of science they should be obvious. OffTheFence ( talk) 16:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
DRAFT SECTION FOLLOWS
==General philosophy==
Homeopathy's metaphysical character sets it apart from conventional medicine,
[31]indeed the language of magic
[32] has been invoked to describe its actions both by homeopaths
[33] and those skeptical of it
[34] but it also has much in common with major religious belief systems
[35].
It is a vitalist philosophy in that it regards diseases and sickness to be caused by disturbances in a hypothetical vital force or life force in humans and that these disturbances manifest themselves as unique symptoms. Homeopathy contends that the vital force has the ability to react and adapt to internal and external causes, which homeopaths refer to as the "law of susceptibility". The law of susceptibility states that a negative state of mind can attract hypothetical disease entities called "miasms" to invade the body and produce symptoms of diseases. [2] However, Hahnemann rejected the notion of a disease as a separate thing or invading entity [3] and insisted that it was always part of the "living whole". [4]
I think this is appropriately modest, NPOV and easily referenced to verifiable sources. I am not very interested in hearing from Peter whether he still thinks homeopathy is a religion or whether he has changed his mind and wishes to distance himself from his previously published position on the subject. The point is that a clear NPOV statement can and should be made in the article that highlights these aspects of homeopathic philosophy for the general reader of Wikipedia. I am however interested to see whether anyone else has more or better ideas or other source materials that they would like to have cited. Might I suggest that if they do then they should copy my draft section and copy it into their own response with appropriate edits and we can see whether we can shape this up. This is not rocket science and boils down to a single sentence so I don't see much need for this to be a lengthy or contentious process.
OffTheFence ( talk) 16:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps some suggestions would help, then? Just saying it's inflammatory doesn't really help improve it, or make it obvious how to fix the problem. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 01:52, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
It is not notable, and it's an absurd fantasy. Ask any homeopath. Ask any of the millions of homeopathic consumers. Ask any homeopathic researcher. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 03:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
p.s. To those who seem to have a problem with the whole area of metaphysics and homeopathy being highlighted publicly in this article, might I point out that the contrasts and overlaps between science and metaphysical ideas are described in Wikipedia, see here [41] and here [42]. The references are necessarily more oblique than is appropriate for the case of homeopathy, but that this because scientific textbooks do not routinely give over their opening chapters to spiritual speculation whereas homeopathic textbooks most definitely do. OffTheFence ( talk) 09:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Some of the latest contributions of OffTheFence ( talk · contribs) are outright bizarre. While I am still not at the point where I would say this user's behaviour must be intentionally unconstructive, I think it is safe to say that it is similar to that of a sophisticated troll and might best be treated as such. Rather than run to ANI and ask for another topic ban, I suggest that we try to solve this challenge on our own, as a community building exercise.
I propose that we all just follow the DNFTT strategy and stop reacting to this user. Of course this only works if we all agree that that's the right way to proceed. If any of the regular contributors to this article doesn't agree, just leave a short note here and I will withdraw this proposal. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 10:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, it seems obvious that Enric Naval does not agree. I withdraw my proposal.
I don't have the time to explain how exactly OffTheFence's responses to my objections were bizarre. People can read the above discussion and draw their own conclusions [43] [44]. I have read some of the links provided by OffTheFence, and they did not corroborate his views in any way. I am not going to waste my time on the others.
Fact is that this kind of tendentiousness has no place in an encyclopaedia. I checked the homeopathy articles in Britannica (2001 CD edition) and in Encarta. They are shorter than this one, so the fact that they don't mention this topic doesn't say much. But even though they cover the criticism of homeopathy, in comparison to this article they sound like advertising for homeopathy. I am convinced that that's because they were written by experts who know what NPOV means, not by a committe of people pushing opposite POVs. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 12:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
So, we have a draft section that is sourced by the statements of two notable homeopaths, namely:
And also from texts by:
And it also cites texts from Samuel Hahnemann.
I have yet to see any comment saying that the draft is incorrect, unacurate, misrepresentative of its sources, or any specific example of where the wording would be WP:NPOV. Notability of sources is established. The relevance of a statement made by notable homeopaths about the basis of homeopathy should be clear too.
The following is of arguments that are not sufficient to block an addition that breaks no policies. This is starting to look like just wallstoning of inclusion of *any* criticism:
So, provide some valid reason citing specific text that is not acceptable so it can be changed before inclusion, backed with exact policy and part of the policy that the text is breaking, or stop complaining about it and let other editors improve the article. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 11:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The statement "Many homeopaths are proud of the spiritual metaphysical aspect of what they do." is simply untrue. You can not provide a source for it - because there is none. As a physician who has interacted with homeopaths for decades, I have yet to find one that thinks or speaks the way that you want to falsely characterize them. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
My extensive library of homeopathic literature backs up my statement. The insistance on inserting nonsense about magic and religion being relevant to homeopathy is not correct - and a not so veiled attempt to discredit homeopathy. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 20:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The statement that there is an aspect to the individual that is a biological organism (flesh) and an aspect that is consciousness (called "spirit" by some) is a statement that a good percentage of non-homeopathic medical practitioners would probably also agree with. Your belief that this supports discrediting homeopathy by associating it with magic or religion is not a logical conclusion, in my estimation. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 20:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
(1) Homeopathy's metaphysical character sets it apart from conventional medicine, [49]
(2) indeed the language of magic [50]
(3) has been invoked to describe its actions both by homeopaths [51]
(4) and those skeptical of it [52]
(5) but it also has much in common with major religious belief systems [53].
OffTheFence, I have once jumped through your hoops now. The result was exactly what could be expected. I will not do this again. Nor, I expect, will anybody else. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 20:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Proclaiming yourself an "expert" says more about you than you probably realize. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 23:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The discussion about the religion proposal seems to be much less constructive than the other discussions we have had here recently. Perhaps I was a bit too quick in attributing this to the main difference that I saw, namely the involvement, if not dominance, of a particular new editor with a large output of text and a certain propensity to answer their interlocutor's weakest argument rather than their real concern. That's how I saw it. If I made an error of judgement, then I would like to adjust my attitude to make it easier to move forward to consensus. But I need help to do this. OffTheFence, please help me by answering the following two questions:
Feel free to answer the spirit of my questions rather than the letter if that's more effective. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 10:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I would prefer citation to my essay from 1981-2 not to be used because it was just a hack piece and it is an extreme minority view in homeopathy. It stemmed from a conversation with an editor. No way does it represent anything like a standard view in homeopathy, as has been claimed. If necessary that essay will be removed from the site. Peter morrell 15:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
OK well use it but it is not a view I hold any more and nor do I think it is more than 1% of homeopaths who have any religious affiliation or care tuppence about so-called 'spiritual beliefs in medicine.' Remember also what Kent said that homeopathy has nothing to do wtih beliefs, prayer, incantations, magic etc because the wrong remedy never works but the right one opens the box. There is a quote to that effect if you want me to find it. The gist of it is that he wishes just as hard (for a good outcome for the patient) with the wrong remedy as with the right one but only the right one does the trick. So I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this whole magic idea/thread. Also, of course, homeopathy is not allied to any belief system, nor was it conceived as such; it arose entirely from Hahnemann's empirical work with single drugs. It unravelled of its own as a piece of practical research. My 2 cents FWIW Peter morrell 15:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's the quote (revised): I have often heard physicians tell me that it was due to suggestion that my medicines acted so well; but my answer to this is, that I suggest just as strongly with my wrong remedy as with the right one, and my patients improve only when they have received the similar or correct remedy. James Tyler Kent, Lesser Writings, New Remedies, Aphorisms & Precepts, 1910, chapter 43, Series in Degrees Peter morrell 06:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
OffTheFence, thanks for your detailed answers.
Let's forget about fragment (4) for the moment. The reference is fine. If anyone is qualified to compare homeopathy with magic then it's anthropologists, and moreover it's clearly marked as opionion of skeptics. This does not mean that it must be mentioned in this section, or anywhere in the article, but it's certainly a possibility to which I am open.
As far as (5) is concerned, based on my own very limited observation I would agree, just as I would agree for classical pychoanalysis, for example. But that's "original research", and in this case I wouldn't even trust that I know enough about homeopathy even in one country, let alone worldwide. In some countries homeopathy is almost illegal, in others it is part of the mainstream (see International prevalence and regulation of homeopathy), therefore some cultural aspects of homeopathy are bound to vary dramatically from one country to another. So the questions are: Can we find a reliable source, do we want to add this to the article, and where. I don't think we are going to find any sources against (5), not because there are no people who deny it, but more because the entire question is something for dinner parties rather than publications, and the best strategy for someone who didn't agree with Peter's article was to not draw attention to it with a rebuttal.
Peter doesn't seem to object to (1), and I don't have a very strong opinion about this. However, there is a historical reason for this metaphysical character, and in my opinion the right way to discuss this point is probably in connection with the somewhat anachronistic nature of homeopathy, which, I suspect, is mainly due to the dominant role of its founder, and which has caused homeopathy to carry metaphysical elements of medicine into the 21st century that were mainstream in the 18th. (This dominance of the founder, by the way, is one thing that homeopathy has in common with religion, and perhaps this observation can help us to replace (5) with something that everybody can agree with.)
My problem with (3) is that I am not sure that Walach is sufficiently representative for homeopathy that we can say "homeopaths" or even just "some homeopaths" here. Perhaps something like "some researchers who want to find a mechanism that could explain homeopathy". (I am not happy with this particular formulation.) In any case I strongly doubt that magic is part of the "general philosophy" of homeopathy, and I would need strong sources to convince me otherwise.
Now (2) is where I really got a bad opinion about you, and I had hoped that you could clear this point out a bit better. The funny thing is that basically you probably want to make a point with which I agree: That the idea of replacing one disease by another, similar one, is an intuitively appealing one of the kind described in Frazer's book. But I think it's obvious that this reference must be extremely offensive to homeopaths, and if it is to be cited it all we would have to do this with extreme care to put it into the right setting.
There is also a synthesis problem. Frazer talks about "homoeopathic magic", but he doesn't apply it to homeopathy. (I haven't read everything, correct me if I'm wrong.) The connection seems to be the "like cures like" principle. If the paper by Walach actually has any real meaning (it sounds too much like postmodern cultural studies for my taste), then it's something else, as far as I can tell. Combining the two looks like improper synthesis to me (and the further connection with religion even more so).
I have found an interesting source that also makes this connection [62]. But note that it is not relevant to homeopathy, that it characterises Frazer's book as "one of the most famous but also most reviled books in anthropology", and that it says "It is doubtful, however, that many people who use homeopathy are familiar with this explanation. Most of them are likely to use homeopathy because they have heard or experienced that it works, though they do not understand its worlcing." Here "this explanation" is the idea of one disease replacing another, which is necessary to connect homeopathy with "homoeopathic magic" in Frazer's sense.
If we had a section with criticism of homeopathy we could probably discuss these things in detail there and perhaps even connect some of them, based on skeptic sources. But I am afraid of proposing such a thing.
Perhaps it's worth saying this very clearly. I am not a pro-homeopathy editor. My aim is an article that is really NPOV, which means that for both pro- and anti-homeopathy people there will be some aspects they don't like. If it is to be stable, then we must avoid everything that is outright offensive to one side or the other, such as "homeopathy is known to be effective" or "homeopathy is quackery". I think we can only reach this point if each side has respect for the other's position and shows this respect by exercising a certain amount of self-censorship. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 17:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
It is OK and it is useful to have such inputs. We learned much from it. We can't outlaw certain views and can at best learn from whatever drifts up to the surface. There are strong opposing views on this subject but the article kind of benefits from this and will always be a mosaic, an amalgam of opposing views. It is never static, but forms a volatile and also dynamic compromise. Such is the nature of the situation. Surely that is far better than a boring article in monotone dictated from on high by some 'expert?' Peter morrell 07:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
No, I don't and nor do I presently have time to read it. Sorry. Peter morrell 09:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Written as a laundry list.
summary: making a better version of draft paragraph about magical thinking on homeopathy located at Talk:Homeopathy#Nature_of_Belief_in_Homeopathy:
-- Enric Naval ( talk) 21:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
That's way too fast for me. I don't think it's very constructive to pursue this further, based so directly on what we already have. And at least one of your points is frivolous. If you really don't know which one, ask, but I think it should be obvious. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 22:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I was asked to comment here. It's an awful lot to read, so apologies if this is repetitive. First, I'd say it's problematic to infer anything about the profession from the beliefs of individual homeopaths. There are medical doctors who believe they'll go to heaven when they die and that a virgin gave birth to a child 2,000 years ago, but we don't add that to the article on medicine to discredit it.
As for sources like The Golden Bough, it's outdated, he was no expert on homeopathy, and its use would constitute OR and POV pushing. If you want to write a section on the philosophy of homeopathy, I suggest you look for some work by academic philosophers, which is likely to be well-argued and fair. I'm not certain that it exists, but the concept of like curing like has been of interest in philosophy for thousands of years, so there should be something in the metaphysics literature. SlimVirgin talk| edits 19:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
homhist1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | → | Archive 40 |
I noticed that since Prevalence and legality of homeopathy was forked off, the word "allopathy" no longer appears in this article. As it is in some sense the opposite of homeopathy we should really discuss it. When I looked for a good place to put it in, I realised that there is no section discussing the relation of homeopathy to mainstream medicine. I think there are a few things to be said: E.g. that homeopathy branched off before mainstream medicine became scientific; hostility of many homeopaths to some elements of mainstream medicine and pejorative use of the word "allopathy". If we name it more inclusively, we could also move the current subsections on isopathy, tautopathy and flower remedies there. Any thoughts? -- Hans Adler ( talk) 15:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Hans, you're opening a can of worms, count me out! Though allopathy has a precise origin and meaning, you will have a hard time explaining that and balancing it against those who detest the term as a form of insult, which I don't think it was originally intended to have but which it soon acquired and has had for many decades. Good luck on trying to find consensus on this topic! Peter morrell 16:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
This discussion is now spread over two places. A couple of editors discussed changes to the lede, intending to make it more POV (see ideas vs. theories). After a consensus was reached and these changes were implemented, QuackGuru appeared and complained (see controversial edit). CKCortez jumped in and escalated the situation by reverting to the previous version, giving reasons that could have been taken in account by simply replacing "in particular" with "for example". I suggest that everybody continues the discussion under this heading now to keep it in one place. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 08:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone has just reinstated the following text: "In particular, the common use of remedies that are so highly diluted that they contain no molecules of the substance being diluted is in contradiction to basic principles of chemistry and medicine". This is a hand-waving statement since it does not cite these basic principles. It is also incorrect. One basic principle of medicine, as stated in the Hippocratic Oath is First, do no harm. The point of dilution is to ensure that the homeopathic medicine is not harmful and so it is consistent with this basic principle. The placebo effect also seems a fairly fundamental aspect of medicine too, being well recognised in medical studies. By this principle, it is is better to give a placebo than no medicine at all.
So, since this statement is wrong and is unsupported, I am removing it. Colonel Warden ( talk) 05:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
So since these supposed principles have neither been produced or are inappropriate and we still have no citation, I am removing this controversial statement again. Colonel Warden ( talk) 05:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Enric, in fact the dilutions thing is well covered; the main arguing point today is about principles: whose principles, what principles and how/if they are being abrogated. Both sides seem to have a point IMO. Question is, does the present wording suffice or does it need changing? If the latter, by how much and to what? thanks Peter morrell 07:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
That said, and I agree up to a point, how do you reckon the present wording need changing to reflect these ideas? Peter morrell 07:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
There are good sources that say homeopathy has fixed & reliable principles that have never changed and cannot change. Science is questioning and pragmatic, true, but it has gathered around it a range of apparent 'principles' along the way and it seems to know sharply what is probably true and what is false in its own view. However, to compare homeopathy with ordinary medicine is perhaps a better task than bringing science in at all as medicine is not even 50% a true science, and so it complicates things to compare homeopathy with science rather than with mainstream medicine. For example, the biomedical worldview relies heavily on biochemistry even though things happen in a living organism that do not happen in test-tubes and so the gulf between the two is very real and so it is clear that a biochemical view of an organism cannot predict the complex interactions, etc that will occur. This is just one reason why medicine is not a hard science like lab-based, test-tube chemistry. Perhaps we can delineate more clearly what purpose we are serving in this discussion? The idea was to improve the wording and somehow say that homeopathy abrogates certain key science principles. Apart from high dilutions, I cannot see what these so-called principles are, let alone find sources to illustrate the contention. Peter morrell 08:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I suspect this is really a semantics issue. What are "principals"?, what is "contradiction"? and so forth. What I think we are looking for is a way to say "according to what we know about the natural world, homeopathy is not possible" without being PoV. Obviously that's a hopelessly badly put sentence, but I think that's the essence of what people are trying to say. Jefffire ( talk) 08:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree but we need to identify more clearly what those principles in conflict actually are. Until then it all remains mysteriously vague. I have my own ideas on that but want to see what others can come up with first. Sorry that's a deliberate tease! Peter morrell 09:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Where we are now: The longstanding version has been replaced by a new one that several editors agreed was more neutral. The new version was changed in one direction (revert to previous version) by CKCortez, which was undone, and then in the opposite direction (removal of a sentence) by Colonel Warren, which was also undone. We now have the new version with minor changes by QuackGuru. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 09:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Homeopathy is scientifically implausible. For example, homeopathic remedies are so highly diluted that they are unlikely to contain any molecules of their active ingredient.
The first sentence is already cited and the second is presumably verifiable. Colonel Warden ( talk) 10:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but you've got it wrong, the original sentence said: "The ideas behind homeopathy are scientifically implausible and directly opposed to fundamental principles of natural science and modern medicine." So, I'm afraid you have to state what these alleged "fundamental principles of natural science and modern medicine," actually are, which some folks say homeopathy is directly opposed to. Unless you do that you cannot put back into the article the above sentence. What is more, you need to cite that exact phrase or give sources that parrot the idea. We have previously agreed about the implausible clause but not the principles clause. thanks Peter morrell 10:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that's OK then. No problem. But Jefffire seemed to think there is an issue on that. Maybe he will let us know. Peter morrell 10:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but you also earlier said: "according to what we know about the natural world, homeopathy is not possible," and that is precisely the issue. Who 'knows' what and how does that cause homeopathy to be so 'impossible' as you put it? You either want to say homeopathy is in conflict with natural science or you don't. Choose what you want. If you do want that phrase in the article then you have got to delineate what the scientific principles are that homeopathy abrogates. Simple. If you don't, then we leave it out entirely as CW said. Hope that's now clearer. Peter morrell 11:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
(EC x 2) Well, I think there is an issue with leaving it out completely. While I see that the principles clause is highly problematic, I don't see a chance to get a stable article while leaving it out altogether. (In my opinion it's because of some scientists who make the wrong equation my POV as a scientist = majority scientists' POV = scientific POV and cannot distinguis between scientific statements and statements about science.) The current wording seems to be the best we can do for the moment. I don't think it is productive to discuss this further right now, in the context of the lede, where we are under additional external restrictions. These things should be addressed in detail in the body of the article, and then the lede should be an accurate summary of the consensus that we will have established there. But for this we need the kind of constructive atmosphere that we won't have if either side feels overrun by the other. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 11:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can determine, only one source has been offered to support the wording "contradiction", namely,
Johnson T, Boon H (2007). " Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American journal of pharmaceutical education 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507.
(This is reference 125 in the current version, but at some point got detached from the "contradiction" statement.) The relevant parts of this reference read
[Homeopathy] is a system of medicine that has been in widespread use for the last 200 years, the theory of which is diametrically opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge and theories.6-8
and
The fundamental tenets of homeopathy are completely different from modern medicine, pharmacology, and chemistry.10 Main sources of contention include: the implausibility of homeopathic principles; the lack of a proven or plausible mechanism of action for homeopathy; and mixed results from randomized, controlled trials on homeopathic preparations. These conflicts, coupled with the existence of some high-quality trials that did not show a benefit with homeopathy have caused many pharmacists to conclude that homeopathy is nothing more than quackery.1,10-13
These statements from the "INTRODUCTION" are tempered by some later statements, such as this one from the end of the section on "PHYSICAL EXPERIMENTS IN DILUTION RESEARCH":
In short, physical experiments have demonstrated a variety of possible mechanisms for the transmission and preservation of therapeutic properties in highly diluted solutions. Taken together, these findings may lead to a mechanism for how homeopathic medications act and interact on a molecular level.
I am bothered by several things here.
It would be helpful if someone with access to a medical library could check the content and wording of these references. (I couldn't find them online.)
I would like to see language that is either
-- Art Carlson ( talk) 11:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well these are not very high grade sources, are they? What pharmacists think of homeopathy cannot really be projected into saying what all scientists think, can it? So I would hold fire on that aspect, as Hans said previously, (a) until we can find better (higher grade) sources and (b) until we can discuss its inclusion not in the lead but somewhere in the main article. thanks Peter morrell 11:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Art, thanks for a very strong and apparently well-researched statement that I agree with. I didn't want to start this discussion now, but apparently it had to be. So I will second what you say, except that I would like to change Colonel Warden's version to "many homeopathic remedies" or "most homeopathic remedies", whichever is correct and can be sourced. Without this qualification it is incorrect because harmless stuff like arnica is often used in dilutions of 1/10-1/10000. See [2] for an example. I think we should make such a minor change before addressing the real controversy, to avoid running into trouble later. Nevertheless I still suggest playing out further down in the article first. (You were probably busy with the research while I proposed that, so perhaps you can say what you think about the idea.) -- Hans Adler ( talk) 11:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Huh? Perhaps you can explain what "bank it" means? plainspeak preferred thank you Peter morrell 13:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Yes, I agree with you. Peter morrell 14:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is missing reference to many meta-analyses in highly respected medical journals. In this light, I am recommending the following addition to this article. You will note that I have integrated some critique of some of these meta-analyses. It is strange that this article ignores the impressive and high quality work of Reilly, the Cochrane review of clinical trials on Oscillococcinum in the treatment of the flu, and the 3 studies on childhood diarrhea by Jacobs and team. The first sentence below is taken directly from the article here, though I have added my recommendations for what should be said next. DanaUllman Talk 03:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Most of these analyses say that the evidence found was not good enough to come to definitive conclusions and call for more good quality research, and several are 8 years or more old, so we also need to consider more recent results, such as the attempt by Lewith et al. to repeat Reilly's results [3], which concluded that while there were some unexplained differences between the groups, "homoeopathic immunotherapy is not effective in the treatment of patients with asthma". In the case of the 2007 analysis of in-vitro studies, as well as saying that the results were not consistently reproduced, the abstract (I haven't seen the actual paper yet) also appears to cast doubt on the quality of the trials: "A general adoption of succussed controls, randomization and blinding would strengthen the evidence of future experiments". This suggests that these were not generally adopted in the studies considered. Brunton ( talk) 12:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Just to point out what I already wrote at Talk:Homeopathy/Selection of studies: I attempted to pull together reliable secondary sources a few months ago: here's the archive of it...nobody responded to my work. Everything I list there is a review or meta-analysis. — Scien tizzle 15:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Linde '97 has been destroyed by reviewers and is contradicted by later, better work. In vitro assays, frankly, don't mean crap when it comes to clinical efficacy. The reason Homeopathy doesn't have support in the medical literature is all those caveats that even the positive reviews have to place: low reliability, power, and repeatability...and vanishing effects as these increase. — Scien tizzle 15:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Brunton is correct about the mistakes made by Enric about the Linde meta-analyses. The 1994 meta-analysis focused on 105 studies in environmental toxicology, and we achieved some consensus on it at Arsenicum album. I generally appreciate the work and mind of User:Scientizzle, but I think he is erring here. The point of doing homeopathic in-vitro studies is first and foremost to simply show that homeopathic doses have a greater effect than a placebo, and there is now a significant body of replication evidence here to confirm this, though as I also note in my description of the Witt (2007) review, no study has been replicated by ALL workers. User:Scientizzle wrote that Linde's 1997 meta-analysis was "destroyed by reviewers," but I am quite confident (though not certain) that he is not correct here. The review of research that has received the most significant criticism has been the 2005 Shang review. As for the Linde 1997 article, the Lancet published an editorial along with the meta-analysis that attacked the results simply because he asserted that all homeopathic research is "a game of chance between two placebos", but he also acknowledged and confirmed that "The meta-analysis is completely state of the art." [8] Obviously, the writer of this editorial is very antagonistic to homeopathy, and yet, he had the highest compliments for the work of Linde and team. That said, my original writing above includes reference to Linde 1999 article in which I wrote: The authors later analyzed these trials and concluded that higher quality trials were less likely to be positive than those of lower quality, though they acknowledged that this is true of conventional medical research too, saying in the first sentence of the article, “There is increasing evidence that more rigorous trials tend to yield less optimistic results than trials with less precautions against bias.” As for the 2005 reference to Linde saying that homeopaths should not say that his work "proved" homeopathy. No meta-analysis can "prove" all of homeopathy, so Linde's statement is relatively meaningless. In fact, Linde has NOT conducted a newer analysis, and based on his original work and his updated comments, we can and should still say that his work shows that the placebo explanation is inadequate for explaining if and how homeopathic medicines work. As his 1997 work highlighted, the 26 high quality clinical trials still had a 1.66 odds ratio, suggesting that the effect from homeopathic medicines was greater than that of placebo. Ultimately, my writing above sought diligently to maintain RS and NPOV. Please read again in the light of this information. DanaUllman Talk 03:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Max that there should be SOME balanced mention of these studies and that they should be covered by every viewpoint of their interpretation so the reader can access them and make their own mind up. Even though they present a complex problem, they should at least get some mention somewhere, either in the main article or in that daughter article of studies. Peter morrell 07:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
So it's OR to describe a controversy then is it? What happens in other wiki articles where there is strong controversy, such as Intelligent design and Creationism? Are you saying that those articles are composed entirely of OR and are thus worthless? That seems to be the logical consequence of what you are saying. We should surely be able to say something fairly neutral about a bunch of trials. Or is that too much to expect? Peter morrell 08:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
OK no isue with all that but I suspect what Jefffire was saying is that even to make a choice of which studies to include involves a bias. And he is right about that. My point simply was that to place something in the article is better than placing nothing. Myriad trials exist as also do their interpreters. It is undoubtedly a minefield, a can of worms, but some mention of all aspects of that should be included in the article. How we make choices and what goes in is then up for discussion. Hopefully, as Hans says, this balance can be achieved through give and take, consensus and mutual respect. Peter morrell 09:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Friends, remember that all scientific theories are falsified all the time. There will always be a few studies with contradictory results and a few phenomena that are unexplained. Just because a few studies show that homeopathy has an effect does not mean that the entire body of established scientific knowledge has to be discarded. The actual practice of science is not strict Popperian. Look at Lakatos [10] for a deeper discussion. The pro science camp can relax. Including a few studies with positive results is not a proof that homeopathy works. I think that the pro-homeo studies can be mentioned and referenced in a narrative with disclaimers. MaxPont ( talk) 07:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Here is the abstract for this item: "Homeopathy is a popular but implausible form of medicine. Contrary to many claims by homeopaths, there is no conclusive evidence that highly dilute homeopathic remedies are different from placebos. The benefits that many patients experience after homeopathic treatment are therefore most probably due to nonspecific treatment effects. Contrary to widespread belief, homeopathy is not entirely devoid of risk. Thus, the proven benefits of highly dilute homeopathic remedies, beyond the beneficial effects of placebos, do not outweigh the potential for harm that this approach can cause."
It expresses an opinion, but does not seem to support the contention that homeopathy is in contradiction of scientific principles. Perhaps someone can check the full article and give here the exact phrase that says this? Also, notably, Ernst is not an RS author as he has expressed such OPINIONS many times before and garners no respect and much derision within alt. med circles not to mention that he also regualrly cites his own articles and those of his co-workers (self-citation rates of over 70% are common in his articles) while his work is rarely cited by anyone else in alt.med outside his circle. I would therefore suggest that this cite be rigorously scrutinised to check if it actually supporits the contention it has been placed to support today. Peter morrell 17:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The NCAHF source rules. I quote: "Homeopathy conflicts more with basic laws of physics, chemistry and pharmacology than with clinical medicine." and several other assertions. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 20:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, it must say which alleged laws are abrogated and we must have an A1 source. We should have good neutral sources to support such a substantive claim. Peter morrell 08:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Art Carlson has raised the important issue on which of the almost 400 reviews and meta-analyses should we use...I suggest that we use 3-5 that are the best that show positive effects from homeopathy and the same number that show negative results. That is what a good encyclopedia would do. DanaUllman Talk 21:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This could then effectively lead into the rest of the "Medical and scientific analysis" section. — Scien tizzle 22:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)Proponents point to reviews/meta-analyses that claim efficacy in treating condition1[link] and condition2,[link] and are not likely to be the result of placebo.[link] These studies have been criticized for ___.[link(s)]...
I see three possibilities here:
-- Art Carlson ( talk) 13:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Efficacy of Homeopathic treatment It is a fact that there are high quality studies on Homeopathy which show a therapeutic effect. Different reliable sources already in the current article refer to it. For example: Basic science research appears to suggest that the use of extremely dilute solutions may not be as implausible as has been claimed. Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not.28-30,80-82 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17429507 The results of individual, controlled clinical trials of homeopathy have been contradictory. In some trials, homeopathy appeared to be no more helpful than a placebo; in other studies, some benefits were seen that the researchers believed were greater than one would expect from a placebo.f Appendix I details findings from clinical trials. http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q8 Hence the phrase claims for efficacy of homeopathy treatment.is false and it should be modified. It is more neutral to also add to the lead what these these already cited in the article reliable sources state.-- Area69 ( talk) 22:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
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We've discussed this many times before. Most recent discussion along these lines in the archives was here, and you'll notice that people were already tired of discussing it then. -- Infophile (Talk) (Contribs) 17:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I've not been active in this topic, so this may seem like a dumb question but: Why is this talk page semi-protected? Only in rare circumstances should a talk page be protected at all. I'm inquiring before asking for unprotection because I'm assuming there was a good reason for the protection. Thanks! Vassyana ( talk) 00:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
According to Google Scholar this article is from 2001 and has something to do with the "National Council Against Health Fraud". It seems that Stephen Barrett's qualification is being a practising psychiatrist. Apart from the online version on quackwatch.org there is also a PDF version hosted on an academic personal homepage. Is this really a reliable source? I was under the impression that we had higher standards for the homeopathy article. For comparison: How about the articles available from [15]? Is it OK to cite them? -- Hans Adler ( talk) 20:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
It is in no way surprising to me that such a sweeping, unscientific claim cannot be sourced to a peer-reviewed journal. -- Hmm. This is akin to saying that intelligent design isn't criticized by any mainstream peer-reviewed papers. While in point of fact true, it misses the issue. Pseudoscience like homeopathy, intelligent design, UFOlogy, etc. doesn't get criticized in peer-reviewed journals because that's not what peer-reviewed journals are for. To illustrate the outright inadequacies of these pseudosciences, we need only reference sources that match the claims. In this case, since the homeopathic claim that diluting a remedy to the point where it is pure water is an effective means of increasing potency are not ever mentioned in peer-reviewed sources, the criticisms do not need to be made in peer reviewed sources. ScienceApologist ( talk) 13:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I have full access to Park, Robert L. Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud. Oxford University Press (2000). Since it is published by a highly respected university press, it may be more generally considered reliable and less contentious than QuackWatch. If people would like information from that source, please let me know and I will provide some quotations, as I did for the source below. Cheers! Vassyana ( talk) 16:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Reply to ScienceApologist (I didn't check my watchlist until now): You really got me into thinking there. The analogy is a good one and made me think whether I really like all the consequences of my way of reasoning, so I looked at the ID article. Its second paragraph is very clear and effective, so if there is no peer-reviewed criticism of ID it seems that it wasn't a problem other than (presumably) making it harder to get to a balanced article.
While I am absolutely sure that no gods exist outside the imaginations of people, I can see no way of "proving" their non-existence scientifically. And assuming their existence, for the sake of argument, I can see no way of "proving" that they are not messing with evolution. We can't prove such things, so we need to invoke Occam's razor to reach conclusions of this nature. Therefore the parallel statements would have no place in the ID article either, e.g.: "The ideas of intelligent design contradict basic principles of science." No, ID (and homeopathy) are in the residual waste of Occam's razor, no more, no less. This doesn't mean that they contradict something.
That said, I am relatively happy with the current version, anyway, and this thread was triggered only by what I consider risqué sourcing. But this has been fixed. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 09:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
No-one is disputing that comment but there is a big gulf between saying that high potencies are dismissed by mainstream science (which does indeed seems obvious) and from saying that homeopathy contradicts the fundamental laws of science and medicine. What fundamental laws and how are they infringed? Sorry to keep repeating the same point, but it has still not been answered after a week or two of asking. The simple fact is that we have no such RS source which states how homeopathy abrogates any physical or chemical laws whatsoever, except the high potency issue. It really is a very strong statement unsupported by an RS cite. That sums up the issue, I think. Peter morrell 13:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Some interesting bits. I'll leave it to the editors here to incorporate them, or not.
(Material moved. See below.)
Just an interesting source I came across. Vassyana ( talk) 20:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, and it is about time that some respect was shown for a profession and a therapy that has been so beneficial to so many. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad my find was useful. :) I have pretty good library access, so I will see what I do to dig up a few more sources. If I find some good additional sources, I will place some quotes from the sources in a subpage to avoid cluttering the talk page itself too much. Vassyana ( talk) 00:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Comment. I've made a sub-page to place quotes from various sources: /Sources001. Vassyana ( talk) 08:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
They were simply quotes that I found interesting about the topic. I leave it to those more familiar with the topic and active in this article to reach a consensus about what to use or not. As I mention, if anyone needs something in particular or wants to know what one of the sources already provided says about something, I can dig through the sources available to me to see if I can help. Regarding NPOV, one cannot really say a source is NPOV or non-NPOV. It is not a measure of detachment or neutrality. Rather, NPOV is little more than ensuring that our presentation is approximately reflective of the body of reputable works as a whole. To oversimplify, imagine that 1/3 of the reputable sources state that homeopathy relies on placebo effect, 1/3 state that it show strong signs of effectiveness and 1/3 state there are mixed results & that efficacy is unlikely. In such an instance, the balance of the article should be evenly split between all three viewpoints. Excluding detractors and/or supporters is not NPOV. We should give appropriate weight to each view based on how much of the reliable literature it represents. Vassyana ( talk) 18:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
<continued from archive 34>
We still have conflict about the contentious statement which asserts some tendentious stuff about scientific principles. Someone tried to support this by citing the NCAHF who just seem to make similar hand-waving assertions. I do not accept them as an authority on this matter. The chap who added this source expected that the source would be challenged but added it anyway. As I understand it, they are a body similar to Wikipedia - self-appointed amateurs who self-publish. Also, since they have a relevant POV on such matters, they are obviously not impartial. Colonel Warden ( talk) 21:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The source that has now been added - Whorton's Nature Cures: The History of Alternative Medicine in America - looks to be a good one on the general subject. I'm not so sure it would be so good on the matter of scientific principles but I havent' read it. Anyway, the citation is inadequate - it provides no URL, page reference nor quotation. This is insufficient for a specific matter of detail like this. It's like citing The Bible in its entirety and saying - "well, it's in there somewhere". :) Colonel Warden ( talk) 23:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I hoped that I could end this discussion by looking up the exact place in Whorton where the current version of the statement ("[…] the common use of remedies that are so highly diluted […] is in contradiction to mainstream science's basic understanding of how nature works.") comes from and adding the pager number. I am happy with the formulation and would like to keep it as it is. But I only found the following, which is the first paragraph of the chapter on homeopathy (which is called "Dilutions of Grandeur", by the way).
[…] nineteenth-century physicians thought of another irregular system as still more unlikely. Indeed, homeopathy’s practices were so remarkably at odds with all accepted notions of how nature worked, of how nature conceivably could work, that they were only to be regarded as utterly impossible. It was "a stupendous monument of human folly"; it represented "the crowning exploit of pseudo-scientific audacity"; it constituted a fabric of "astounding absurdities" and "nonsensical trash." […] All in all, "the fact that men of sense and character should become its dupes, is one of the most striking exhibitions of intellectual stupidity and moral obliquity which the history of fanaticism itself can furnish." Homeopathy was also the most popular of all alternative systems of practice from the 1850s to the beginning of the twentieth century. —James C. Whorton, Nature Cures, p. 49
The sentence looks perfect on first sight, but there is a catch: When read in context it becomes clear that Whorton is summarising the position of contemporary scientists, not necessarily presenting his own. For more perspective, here is a later passage from the same chapter:
Much as bioenergeticists of the late twentieth century have reacted against the physical reductionism of modern medicine, many late eighteenth-century scientists, particularly in Germany, demanded that renewed attention be given to the non-material and non-quantifiable components of nature and that vitality be recognized as a mystery that transcends the physical sciences. Hahnemann’s concentration on the body’s vital force and the drug’s dynamic power were reflections of the revived study of non-material agents in nature. —James C. Whorton, Nature Cures, p. 67
Note the use of the word "scientists". As I said, I am very happy with the current version of the sentence. I think this passage gives a good explanation why I was uncomfortable with earlier, stronger statements. But unfortunately it looks as if we don't have a good source for the current version. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 10:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
It is precisely this language style that makes this article woefully objectionable. Why? It reads as an attack piece and "de-bunking" article in a "skeptics" publication. NPOV is the standard we must use. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 02:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
It is refreshing having a new voice here, Colonel Warden, who seems to have a NPOV and who might mediate between the two sides. I'm open to hearing whatever specific recommendations he has for having his article be more neutral and more encyclopedic. One of the agreed upon references to our present article is this [Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American journal of pharmaceutical education 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507.] One of its conclusions was: "Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not.28-30,80-82" Similarly, my recommendations at the top of this Talk page include making specific references to those high quality meta-analyses and reviews that have positive results and those that have had negative results. Such is so appropriate for an encyclopedia. DanaUllman Talk 04:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I have also made reference to this article [Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507] a number of times as a good example for all who desire to be editors on the Wikipedia homeopathy article. It is well written and presents both sides without bias and from a neutral point of view (NPOV). Arion 3x3 ( talk) 14:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
These artcicles are from the respectable peer reviewed journal Medical History. They could add RS for the history section. Available in fulltext at Pubmed.
Homeopathy in America. The Rise and Fall of a Medical Heresy Med Hist. 1974 January; 18(1): 99–100. PMC 1081530
Book Review: Patients in the history of homoeopathy Lyn Brierley-Jones Med Hist. 2004 October 1; 48(4): 524–526. PMC 546381
Homöopathie: Patienten, Heilkundige, Institutionen: von den Anfängen bis heute Lutz D H Sauerteig Med Hist. 1998 July; 42(3): 407–408. PMC 1044058
Weltgeschichte der Homöopathie. Länder—Schulen—Heilkundige Nicolaas Rupke Med Hist. 1997 October; 41(4): 504–505. PMC 1043948
The patient not the cure. The challenge of homoeopathy Med Hist. 1977 July; 21(3): 341. PMC 1082051
The age of science. The scientific world-view in the nineteenth century Christine Stevenson Med Hist. 1988 July; 32(3): 350–351. PMC 1139905
Becoming a physician: medical education in Britain, France, Germany, and the United States, 1750–1945 Matthew Ramsey Med Hist. 1998 April; 42(2): 249–250. PMC 1044009
MaxPont ( talk) 15:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I added what I think is a table in the discussion about dilutions. It visually summarizes the textual content within that section. In general, I think the homeopathic notation system is quite confusing and I think a chart more quickly demonstrates what the notation means in terms of volume ratios.
I don't know if including the reference to the EPA's allowed concentration of arsenic in drinking water is going to be considered NPOV, however, it is simply a statement of fact that the EPA allows drinking water to contain 10 parts per billion of arsenic in drinking water. In the context of homeopathy, which is all about using dilutions to safely administer substances that are deadly at higher concentrations, I think it is a worthwhile comparison to make. Konky2000 ( talk) 17:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I reverted a few undiscussed edits made in the night simply because they had not been proposed & discussed here first. The tradition we have grown used to with this article is to suggest and gain a consensus here first, before making any big or controversial changes to the article itself. Maybe we can now discuss the changes suggested. Peter morrell 06:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
And another undiscussed edit (well a unilateral deletion actually): Proponents of homeopathy, including Rustum Roy, maintain that water has a memory effect beyond the presence of individual molecules of the dissolved substance, [1] but this is unsupported by experimental evidence. Can we use this or is it no use? It is factually accurate but maybe needs a better source. It could have been left in and tagged, of course. Peter morrell 10:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The point is plain enough: you made an undiscussed edit without seeking any consensus first. The longstanding approach used here is to seek consensus first, which tends to avoid edit wars and personal attacks. That's all really. Peter morrell 11:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The belief in "water memory" is an important part of the pantheon of homeopathy's adherance, but we can certainly do a lot better than this semi-coherant ramble. In particular, he claims that since graphic and diamond have the same chemical make-up, that this is "proof" of homepathy is toe-curlingly stupid. If nothing else it is PoV to associate the subject with such a bad advocate. Jefffire ( talk) 14:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Talk:Homeopathy/Selection_of_studies. This was spammed everywhere by a banned user, evidently, and was formerly included at the top of the References section of this talk pages for reasons unknown - but time will tell, and sufferers like the divine Miranda... Sorry, I played Lucky in an amateur production of Waiting for Godot once. Anyway, it serves no purpose, and exists on quite a number of User talk pages anyway. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 13:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
You have not explained very clearly what is going on or why. Perhaps you can do that? What on earth is this all about and why delete a simple inoffensive list of articles? What purpose does that possibly serve the encyclopedia? Peter morrell 14:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Homeopathy. The Arbcom have specifically stated that they want to expand the scope of this case to Homeopathy pages and the article probation in general. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 14:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#DanaUllman Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 01:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
On April 1st, I posted the below recommended additions to this article, and we had some good discussion here. The material was archived before things were finalized. Scientizzle promised to recommend some compromise ideas. I'm open...
This article is missing reference to many meta-analyses in highly respected medical journals. In this light, I am recommending the following addition to this article. You will note that I have integrated some critique of some of these meta-analyses. It is strange that this article ignores the impressive and high quality work of Reilly, the Cochrane review of clinical trials on Oscillococcinum in the treatment of the flu, and the 3 studies on childhood diarrhea by Jacobs and team. The first sentence below is taken directly from the article here, though I have added my recommendations for what should be said next. DanaUllmanTalk 03:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Claims for efficacy of homeopathic treatment beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by scientific and clinical studies.[7][8][9][10] However, various meta-analysis have found a greater effect from a homeopathic medicine than a placebo [Linde K, Clausius N, Ramirez G, et al (1997). "Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials". Lancet 350 (9081): 834–43. PMID 9310601. Linde and colleagues analysed 89 trials and found a mean odds ratio of 2.45 (95% confidence interval, 2.05–2.93), in favor of homeopathy. When considering just those trials of “high quality” and after correcting for publication bias, the findings actually remained statistically significant (means odds ratio of 1.86). The main conclusion was that the results “were not compatible with the hypothesis that the effects of homoeopathy are completely due to placebo.” The authors later analyzed these trials and concluded that higher quality trials were less likely to be positive than those of lower quality, though they acknowledged that this is true of conventional medical research too, saying in the first sentence of the article, “There is increasing evidence that more rigorous trials tend to yield less optimistic results than trials with less precautions against bias.” Linde K, Scholz M, Ramirez G, et al. Impact of study quality on outcome in placebo controlled trials of homeopathy. J Clin Epidemiol 1999; 52: 631–6.] and several meta-analyses evaluating the homeopathic treatment of specific diseases has also found positive results. [Jacobs J, Jonas WB, Jimenez-Perez M, Crothers D (2003). Homeopathy for childhood diarrhea: combined results and metaanalysis from three randomized, controlled clinical trials. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, 22:229–234.] [Vickers A, Smith C (2006). Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes (Cochrane Review). In: The Cochrane Library. Chichester, UK: John Wiley & Sons, Ltd. CD001957.] [Barnes J, Resch K-L, Ernst E (1997). Homeopathy for postoperative ileus? A meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology, 25:628–633.] [Taylor MA, Reilly D, Llewellyn-Jones RH, McSharry C, Aitchison TC (2000). Randomised controlled trials of homoeopathy versus placebo in perennial allergic rhinitis with overview of four trial series. British Medical Journal, 321:471–476.] A review of 67 in vitro studies was conducted, three-fourths of which have been replicated with positive results by independent investigators. [Claudia M. Witt, Michael Bluth, Henning Albrecht The in vitro evidence for an effect of high homeopathic potencies—A systematic review of the literature. Complementary Therapies in Medicine. Volume 15, Issue 2, June 2007, Pages 128-138. doi:10.1016/j.ctim.2007.01.011] The researchers of this review concluded, “Even experiments with a high methodological standard could demonstrate an effect of high potencies.” However, they also acknowledge, “No positive result was stable enough to be reproduced by all investigators.” DanaUllman Talk 00:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Talk about SELECTIVE QUOTING! The very sentence before the one quoted by Brunton in the authors' comment in a letter published in The Lancet is this:
I will ignore your uncivil language and repeat that my point is valid. This is a case of selective quoting. The letter clearly stated: "The conclusion that physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for … further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data." [20] Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I know that. But the wrong impression that was created by your quote was that the letter in The Lancet was critical of homeopathy. What the letter also stated was:
To clarify, I was pointing out that the letter was not presenting an anti-homeopathy position as Brunton's selected quote might have led one to believe. The letter was complaining that the study should not be used to say homeopathy is "proven" (by the way, I have not seen such a claim). However, he was also stating: "The conclusion that physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data." In other words, he was saying that homeopathy has also not been disproven.
His position is close to mine. My position regarding research on homeopathy is:
(1) Homeopathy has not been disproven by research
(2) Homeopathy has not been proven by research
(3) Homeopathic research has produced mixed results
The Wikipedia article should reflect the "mixed results" status of the research, instead of leading the reader to think that homeopathy has been disproven by "science". Arion 3x3 ( talk) 23:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I do not see the value of editors criticizing of editors, instead of discussing how to improve the actual article for which the discussion page is intended. I have clearly shown that the letter was making a clear statement that homeopathy has not been disproven, yet that very fact continues to be ignored. The actual quotes were provided.
My comment had been regarding the point that the letter to The Lancet that was quoted was presented as if it was negative about homeopathy, but it actually was complaining about the tendency for either side of the homeopathic research question to consider their side to have proven their position.
The letter's MAIN point was that homeopathic research had NOT DISPROVEN homeopathy - but you would never have known that from that isolated quote that Brunton presented. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Your not liking the point does not automatically mean that it is not the main point of the letter. If someone has a mind-set that homeopathy is "obviously impossible" and all scientific research will bear out that belief - then facts might easily be overlooked. Remember, scientific inquiry cannot simply be structured to confirm one's own beliefs. That is not how discovery and advancemnent of knowledge has progressed on this world. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The atmosphere here has become extremely unpleasant and hostile of late; poisonous might be a better word. Can somebody please summarise the key issue and then suggest a way forward so folks can work more harmoniously towards improving the article? Or has that objective now become eclipsed as a side-issue to all the endless squabbling? Peter morrell 18:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
There was no "twisting" and the quotations were direct quotations. No one can seriously tell me that they do not understand the meaning of those words. Now lets get on with improving this article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Much more to the point, it has been widely agreed some days back what this article principally requires: some RS cites to show that there do exist in this world positive studies of homeopathy. The article is presenly brimful with negative studies and fair enough they need to be there, but positive ones do exist and what Arion and Dana have primarily been trying to point to, as far as I can see, is that to balance things up a little, we need to decide on and include some of those refs. Instead of endlessly bitching about which studies and who said what, or making personal attacks on other editors, or creating a very hostile atmosphere here, we would be better employed by working together to find and use the studies we need. Is that a fair summary of the current impasse? Peter morrell 11:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
You have just read a succinct summary of the problem with the homeopathy article(s). The problem is not Dana Ullman. The problem is just this kind of biased statement by one of the editors who are determined not to allow any research that is positive to homeopathy. The readers of Wikipedia are not interested in the personal opinions (or in this case mind-sets) of editors. The readers want a factually accurate and NPOV article on homeopathy. As Peter Morrell put it, here is "what this article principally requires: some RS cites to show that there do exist in this world positive studies of homeopathy." Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Shoe...I'm confused by your above statement. I described the Cochrane Report on Oscillococcinum using their words "promising." I did not write nor did they write that this research "proves blah blah blah." I'm not exactly clear where you got that quote or why you brought it up. Can you clarify, or better, simply agree that it is time to give reference to this Cochrane Report that cites four studies that show that patients given this medicine experienced relief from the flu faster than those patients given a placebo. DanaUllman Talk 21:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
On the Naturopathy Talk Page, I saw that someone complained that the Lead here reads, "Claims...............quackery at worst" and found it to be true.
Isn't it offensive to call Qualified Homeopathic Doctors Quacks?
I've been healed of Gall-stones, my father of kidney stones and my mother of piles, besides our Homeopathic Doctor seems to have a good practice.
Can't we have something titled, 'Criticism' lower down in the article and put this matter there? I mean, the Lead should be NPOV isn't it?
Happening (
talk)
07:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, I try to describe my version without breaking the copyright. In the first paragraph they distance themselves from Hahnemann's quinine experience using the words "he claimed", not "he contended". Our article seems to be uncritical in this respect, although it doesn't seem to be reproducible. They have a sentence "[…] most homeopathists believed in the action of minute doses of medicine", so they are clearly not claiming that belief in homeopathy necessarily entails belief in the part that is most well-known and easiest to debunk, as we seem to be doing.
The second (and last) paragraph in my CD version of the article says: "To many […], homeopathy was a mild, welcome alternative to bleeding, […] and other heavy-handed therapies of the day. In the 20th century, however, homeopathy has been viewed with little favour and has been criticized for focusing on the symptoms rather than on the underlying causes of disease. Homeopathy still has some adherents, and there are a number of national and international societies, including […]."
This is firm (homeopathy is an anachronism, and the only thing necessary to say about the present is that it's criticised but still practised) but not insulting (homeopathy was a mild alternative; this is slightly undermined by "to many patients and some physicians", but in an unobtrusive way).
The Encarta article can be found here. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 10:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
While we can certainly learn by analyzing it, I don't think the Britannica lead is anything we want to copy. It is true that homeopathy has sometimes "been criticized for focusing on symptoms rather than causes", it has most often been criticized for using ultramolecular doses, which is not mentioned at all in the Britannica lead. (Maybe it is a mistake.) Note also that while EB says homeopathy is criticized for "focusing on symptoms rather than causes", Encarta says in its lead that "[h]omeopathy focuses on healing the underlying cause of disease, not simply eliminating the symptoms caused by the disease." Take your pick. I'll stick with our lead and try to make it even better. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 12:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I also found that Anthony Campbell's criticism of George Vithoulkas' statement about Syphilis has been repeated.
I have not been around for a while, but I'd like some quotations considered for inclusion in the section on "General Philosophy" [22], either directly or as sources to which reference can be made.
Peter Morrell previously strongly objected to any similarity with religion being highlighted [23] and said "Yes, Kent was a highly religious man, so what? You can keep pushing this wild POV but there really is no more religion and belief in homeopathy than there is in science today. Is there a section on religion in the science article or the medicine article? According to you, there should be. That's precisely how daft your idea is. If you continue in this vein then you might even be banned. This article is under probation and prejudicial & vastly uninformed time-wasters like you are on a short leash or did you forget this? If a pro-homeo person were doing what you are doing here they would have been banned 24 hours ago."
but the following quotations make that similarity clear and accepted and they happen to have been written by Peter Morrell himself. "Modern homeopathy dwells in a nebulous and metaphysical realm into which few allopaths would fear to tread." [24] "homoeopathy is very much a `belief-system' containing many philosophical elements and ideas.""there are clear and undeniable parallels between homoeopathy and religion.""Both are systems of belief.""The power structures of a religion usually revolve around a central figure - eg the founder ""In the case of the founder of hom, Hahnemann, he is widely revered as the creator of hom, and frequently as the ultimate authority for settling disputes." [25]. I will say that I asked Peter for an internet source for his article on "Homeopathy and Religion" but he did not oblige, but I found them myself in the end. I had thought it might be a jumping off point to finding other material to be offered for inclusion here, but since it turns out to include exactly the kind of material I had in mind for inclusion as part of this topic I see no need to look further at this point.
I also think that the ideas of JG Frazer should then be included."Charms based on the Law of Similarity may be called Homoeopathic or Imitative Magic" [26] The magical thinking of homeopathic medicine involves this form of thinking. [27]
Might I ask that we reconsider the options in the article for describing the nature of the homeopathic belief system. Merely saying it is a form of vitalism is too narrow. OffTheFence ( talk) 15:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Homeopathy is NOT a religion, never has been and never will be so your point is entirely off-topic. It therefore merits no further comment. Peter morrell 11:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Peter Fisher discusses it reasonably favourably as an explanation of Homeopathy in {{doi:10.1016/j.homp.2004.07.005}}. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 15:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
That some homeopaths subscribe to a spiritual paradigm does not make homeopathy a religion either.
A religion is defined thus: a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. [29]
Homeopathy does not fit this definition. Vaguely it partially fits point 3. Science, however, conforms to points 2 and 4; therefore science is more of a religion than homeopathy! How utterly amazing. Peter morrell 15:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
"the deeper aspects of homoeopathy are, like religion, contrary to the materialistic principles that 'Scientists' would have us believe regulate material existence."
"The doctrine of the vital force fits so closely the facts of homoeopathy that it is remarkable that science has never shown much interest in the subject. One reason may be that all Vitalist theories about life come very close indeed to the spiritual, and science is never prepared to get tangled up with subjective truths. This is where religion comes in."
"In conclusion, what we can say about homoeopathy and religion is that there are some definite connections between them. They agree very broadly about the nature of man and of life, they support each other logically and they complement one another."
"In my view homoeopathy is a spiritual technique, a spiritual discipline, that heals sickness by addressing that in each of us - vital force and spirit - from which the body, was created and by which it is maintained. In this sense therefore homoeopathy is far more than a system of medicine. When practised properly it holds out to humanity a means of self-understanding, self discovery and self-help as important and as valid as any religion on earth."
"There are many who feel that their personal religious faith and beliefs - if any - are quite separate from their practice of homoeopathy and that they occupy quite separate parts of their life. Fine. That is so for them. But quite a majority of homoeopaths have endeavoured to formulate more advanced philosophies for homoeopathy, based upon a conceptual framework, derived - at least in part - from a religion. "
"In general terms one might be tempted to conclude that homoeopathy as a philosophy fits in most easily with various polytheistic religions like Hinduism and Paganism - including Druidism - and with the Oriental religious philosophies like Zen, Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism."
"What is a religion?
While leaving aside the question of what a religion is, and its function, we can say what it contains. All religions contain a number of discernible elements. Some of these are fairly obvious. Others less obvious. They include:
spiritual element, philosophical element, emotional element, belief and trust element, personal salvation element, world or humanity salvation element, mythologiocal, fantastic or poetic element, orthodox, traditional element, power structures and hierarchies, Homoeopathy also contains most of these elements. It certainly includes elements 2-5, some would also include 1 and 6. Homoeopathy has certainly had its share of 7, 8 and 9. It will be necessary therefore, to consider each of these in further detail in their own right in order to show their relation to homoeopathy."
I think that's enough to make my point. It should not have been necessary to belabour this point quite so leadenly, but Peter Morrell seems to have a major problem with having this issue raised and considered for inclusion. If anyone wants to read the rest they can follow the link I gave.
I really think that we need to move on from a basis that the philosophical basis of homeopathy needs to include a reference to its religious aspects as well as the magical ideas and vitalism. I don't think that it can be rationally said that these are not relevant or important.
And, by the way Peter Morrell, if someone was writing a general piece about the philosophy of science it would be perfectly reasonable to allude to its religious context especially in past centuries. It was a particularly feeble strawman you raised, but to explore science's historical and philosophical links with religion here really would be off-topic, but unless you have only a very narrow reading of the history of science they should be obvious. OffTheFence ( talk) 16:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
DRAFT SECTION FOLLOWS
==General philosophy==
Homeopathy's metaphysical character sets it apart from conventional medicine,
[31]indeed the language of magic
[32] has been invoked to describe its actions both by homeopaths
[33] and those skeptical of it
[34] but it also has much in common with major religious belief systems
[35].
It is a vitalist philosophy in that it regards diseases and sickness to be caused by disturbances in a hypothetical vital force or life force in humans and that these disturbances manifest themselves as unique symptoms. Homeopathy contends that the vital force has the ability to react and adapt to internal and external causes, which homeopaths refer to as the "law of susceptibility". The law of susceptibility states that a negative state of mind can attract hypothetical disease entities called "miasms" to invade the body and produce symptoms of diseases. [2] However, Hahnemann rejected the notion of a disease as a separate thing or invading entity [3] and insisted that it was always part of the "living whole". [4]
I think this is appropriately modest, NPOV and easily referenced to verifiable sources. I am not very interested in hearing from Peter whether he still thinks homeopathy is a religion or whether he has changed his mind and wishes to distance himself from his previously published position on the subject. The point is that a clear NPOV statement can and should be made in the article that highlights these aspects of homeopathic philosophy for the general reader of Wikipedia. I am however interested to see whether anyone else has more or better ideas or other source materials that they would like to have cited. Might I suggest that if they do then they should copy my draft section and copy it into their own response with appropriate edits and we can see whether we can shape this up. This is not rocket science and boils down to a single sentence so I don't see much need for this to be a lengthy or contentious process.
OffTheFence ( talk) 16:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps some suggestions would help, then? Just saying it's inflammatory doesn't really help improve it, or make it obvious how to fix the problem. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 01:52, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
It is not notable, and it's an absurd fantasy. Ask any homeopath. Ask any of the millions of homeopathic consumers. Ask any homeopathic researcher. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 03:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
p.s. To those who seem to have a problem with the whole area of metaphysics and homeopathy being highlighted publicly in this article, might I point out that the contrasts and overlaps between science and metaphysical ideas are described in Wikipedia, see here [41] and here [42]. The references are necessarily more oblique than is appropriate for the case of homeopathy, but that this because scientific textbooks do not routinely give over their opening chapters to spiritual speculation whereas homeopathic textbooks most definitely do. OffTheFence ( talk) 09:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Some of the latest contributions of OffTheFence ( talk · contribs) are outright bizarre. While I am still not at the point where I would say this user's behaviour must be intentionally unconstructive, I think it is safe to say that it is similar to that of a sophisticated troll and might best be treated as such. Rather than run to ANI and ask for another topic ban, I suggest that we try to solve this challenge on our own, as a community building exercise.
I propose that we all just follow the DNFTT strategy and stop reacting to this user. Of course this only works if we all agree that that's the right way to proceed. If any of the regular contributors to this article doesn't agree, just leave a short note here and I will withdraw this proposal. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 10:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, it seems obvious that Enric Naval does not agree. I withdraw my proposal.
I don't have the time to explain how exactly OffTheFence's responses to my objections were bizarre. People can read the above discussion and draw their own conclusions [43] [44]. I have read some of the links provided by OffTheFence, and they did not corroborate his views in any way. I am not going to waste my time on the others.
Fact is that this kind of tendentiousness has no place in an encyclopaedia. I checked the homeopathy articles in Britannica (2001 CD edition) and in Encarta. They are shorter than this one, so the fact that they don't mention this topic doesn't say much. But even though they cover the criticism of homeopathy, in comparison to this article they sound like advertising for homeopathy. I am convinced that that's because they were written by experts who know what NPOV means, not by a committe of people pushing opposite POVs. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 12:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
So, we have a draft section that is sourced by the statements of two notable homeopaths, namely:
And also from texts by:
And it also cites texts from Samuel Hahnemann.
I have yet to see any comment saying that the draft is incorrect, unacurate, misrepresentative of its sources, or any specific example of where the wording would be WP:NPOV. Notability of sources is established. The relevance of a statement made by notable homeopaths about the basis of homeopathy should be clear too.
The following is of arguments that are not sufficient to block an addition that breaks no policies. This is starting to look like just wallstoning of inclusion of *any* criticism:
So, provide some valid reason citing specific text that is not acceptable so it can be changed before inclusion, backed with exact policy and part of the policy that the text is breaking, or stop complaining about it and let other editors improve the article. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 11:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The statement "Many homeopaths are proud of the spiritual metaphysical aspect of what they do." is simply untrue. You can not provide a source for it - because there is none. As a physician who has interacted with homeopaths for decades, I have yet to find one that thinks or speaks the way that you want to falsely characterize them. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
My extensive library of homeopathic literature backs up my statement. The insistance on inserting nonsense about magic and religion being relevant to homeopathy is not correct - and a not so veiled attempt to discredit homeopathy. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 20:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The statement that there is an aspect to the individual that is a biological organism (flesh) and an aspect that is consciousness (called "spirit" by some) is a statement that a good percentage of non-homeopathic medical practitioners would probably also agree with. Your belief that this supports discrediting homeopathy by associating it with magic or religion is not a logical conclusion, in my estimation. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 20:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
(1) Homeopathy's metaphysical character sets it apart from conventional medicine, [49]
(2) indeed the language of magic [50]
(3) has been invoked to describe its actions both by homeopaths [51]
(4) and those skeptical of it [52]
(5) but it also has much in common with major religious belief systems [53].
OffTheFence, I have once jumped through your hoops now. The result was exactly what could be expected. I will not do this again. Nor, I expect, will anybody else. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 20:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Proclaiming yourself an "expert" says more about you than you probably realize. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 23:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The discussion about the religion proposal seems to be much less constructive than the other discussions we have had here recently. Perhaps I was a bit too quick in attributing this to the main difference that I saw, namely the involvement, if not dominance, of a particular new editor with a large output of text and a certain propensity to answer their interlocutor's weakest argument rather than their real concern. That's how I saw it. If I made an error of judgement, then I would like to adjust my attitude to make it easier to move forward to consensus. But I need help to do this. OffTheFence, please help me by answering the following two questions:
Feel free to answer the spirit of my questions rather than the letter if that's more effective. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 10:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I would prefer citation to my essay from 1981-2 not to be used because it was just a hack piece and it is an extreme minority view in homeopathy. It stemmed from a conversation with an editor. No way does it represent anything like a standard view in homeopathy, as has been claimed. If necessary that essay will be removed from the site. Peter morrell 15:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
OK well use it but it is not a view I hold any more and nor do I think it is more than 1% of homeopaths who have any religious affiliation or care tuppence about so-called 'spiritual beliefs in medicine.' Remember also what Kent said that homeopathy has nothing to do wtih beliefs, prayer, incantations, magic etc because the wrong remedy never works but the right one opens the box. There is a quote to that effect if you want me to find it. The gist of it is that he wishes just as hard (for a good outcome for the patient) with the wrong remedy as with the right one but only the right one does the trick. So I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this whole magic idea/thread. Also, of course, homeopathy is not allied to any belief system, nor was it conceived as such; it arose entirely from Hahnemann's empirical work with single drugs. It unravelled of its own as a piece of practical research. My 2 cents FWIW Peter morrell 15:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's the quote (revised): I have often heard physicians tell me that it was due to suggestion that my medicines acted so well; but my answer to this is, that I suggest just as strongly with my wrong remedy as with the right one, and my patients improve only when they have received the similar or correct remedy. James Tyler Kent, Lesser Writings, New Remedies, Aphorisms & Precepts, 1910, chapter 43, Series in Degrees Peter morrell 06:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
OffTheFence, thanks for your detailed answers.
Let's forget about fragment (4) for the moment. The reference is fine. If anyone is qualified to compare homeopathy with magic then it's anthropologists, and moreover it's clearly marked as opionion of skeptics. This does not mean that it must be mentioned in this section, or anywhere in the article, but it's certainly a possibility to which I am open.
As far as (5) is concerned, based on my own very limited observation I would agree, just as I would agree for classical pychoanalysis, for example. But that's "original research", and in this case I wouldn't even trust that I know enough about homeopathy even in one country, let alone worldwide. In some countries homeopathy is almost illegal, in others it is part of the mainstream (see International prevalence and regulation of homeopathy), therefore some cultural aspects of homeopathy are bound to vary dramatically from one country to another. So the questions are: Can we find a reliable source, do we want to add this to the article, and where. I don't think we are going to find any sources against (5), not because there are no people who deny it, but more because the entire question is something for dinner parties rather than publications, and the best strategy for someone who didn't agree with Peter's article was to not draw attention to it with a rebuttal.
Peter doesn't seem to object to (1), and I don't have a very strong opinion about this. However, there is a historical reason for this metaphysical character, and in my opinion the right way to discuss this point is probably in connection with the somewhat anachronistic nature of homeopathy, which, I suspect, is mainly due to the dominant role of its founder, and which has caused homeopathy to carry metaphysical elements of medicine into the 21st century that were mainstream in the 18th. (This dominance of the founder, by the way, is one thing that homeopathy has in common with religion, and perhaps this observation can help us to replace (5) with something that everybody can agree with.)
My problem with (3) is that I am not sure that Walach is sufficiently representative for homeopathy that we can say "homeopaths" or even just "some homeopaths" here. Perhaps something like "some researchers who want to find a mechanism that could explain homeopathy". (I am not happy with this particular formulation.) In any case I strongly doubt that magic is part of the "general philosophy" of homeopathy, and I would need strong sources to convince me otherwise.
Now (2) is where I really got a bad opinion about you, and I had hoped that you could clear this point out a bit better. The funny thing is that basically you probably want to make a point with which I agree: That the idea of replacing one disease by another, similar one, is an intuitively appealing one of the kind described in Frazer's book. But I think it's obvious that this reference must be extremely offensive to homeopaths, and if it is to be cited it all we would have to do this with extreme care to put it into the right setting.
There is also a synthesis problem. Frazer talks about "homoeopathic magic", but he doesn't apply it to homeopathy. (I haven't read everything, correct me if I'm wrong.) The connection seems to be the "like cures like" principle. If the paper by Walach actually has any real meaning (it sounds too much like postmodern cultural studies for my taste), then it's something else, as far as I can tell. Combining the two looks like improper synthesis to me (and the further connection with religion even more so).
I have found an interesting source that also makes this connection [62]. But note that it is not relevant to homeopathy, that it characterises Frazer's book as "one of the most famous but also most reviled books in anthropology", and that it says "It is doubtful, however, that many people who use homeopathy are familiar with this explanation. Most of them are likely to use homeopathy because they have heard or experienced that it works, though they do not understand its worlcing." Here "this explanation" is the idea of one disease replacing another, which is necessary to connect homeopathy with "homoeopathic magic" in Frazer's sense.
If we had a section with criticism of homeopathy we could probably discuss these things in detail there and perhaps even connect some of them, based on skeptic sources. But I am afraid of proposing such a thing.
Perhaps it's worth saying this very clearly. I am not a pro-homeopathy editor. My aim is an article that is really NPOV, which means that for both pro- and anti-homeopathy people there will be some aspects they don't like. If it is to be stable, then we must avoid everything that is outright offensive to one side or the other, such as "homeopathy is known to be effective" or "homeopathy is quackery". I think we can only reach this point if each side has respect for the other's position and shows this respect by exercising a certain amount of self-censorship. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 17:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
It is OK and it is useful to have such inputs. We learned much from it. We can't outlaw certain views and can at best learn from whatever drifts up to the surface. There are strong opposing views on this subject but the article kind of benefits from this and will always be a mosaic, an amalgam of opposing views. It is never static, but forms a volatile and also dynamic compromise. Such is the nature of the situation. Surely that is far better than a boring article in monotone dictated from on high by some 'expert?' Peter morrell 07:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
No, I don't and nor do I presently have time to read it. Sorry. Peter morrell 09:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Written as a laundry list.
summary: making a better version of draft paragraph about magical thinking on homeopathy located at Talk:Homeopathy#Nature_of_Belief_in_Homeopathy:
-- Enric Naval ( talk) 21:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
That's way too fast for me. I don't think it's very constructive to pursue this further, based so directly on what we already have. And at least one of your points is frivolous. If you really don't know which one, ask, but I think it should be obvious. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 22:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I was asked to comment here. It's an awful lot to read, so apologies if this is repetitive. First, I'd say it's problematic to infer anything about the profession from the beliefs of individual homeopaths. There are medical doctors who believe they'll go to heaven when they die and that a virgin gave birth to a child 2,000 years ago, but we don't add that to the article on medicine to discredit it.
As for sources like The Golden Bough, it's outdated, he was no expert on homeopathy, and its use would constitute OR and POV pushing. If you want to write a section on the philosophy of homeopathy, I suggest you look for some work by academic philosophers, which is likely to be well-argued and fair. I'm not certain that it exists, but the concept of like curing like has been of interest in philosophy for thousands of years, so there should be something in the metaphysics literature. SlimVirgin talk| edits 19:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
homhist1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).