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I am not sure how to best address this issue, but "Jurisdiction = Vatican City..." seams incorrect, or at least incomplete. "Jurisdiction" does not quite describe the relationship that the Holy See has with Vatican City, per se. The Holy See is the symbolic seat of the Pope, who has jurisdiction over Catholics within the immediate Diocese of Rome, as well as all over the world (the conflicting definition of jurisdiction was cause minor confusion in another discussion). The Vatican is a territory administered by the Holy See, perhaps, maybe? I do not quite know how to portray this on the template. -- Zfish118 ( talk) 02:48, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
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What are the arguments for and against of including the Template:Pentarchy in the footer of this article, please? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 17:14, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
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I'm not sure but Sancta seems to be the feminine and Sanctus is the neuter. Would it be more appropriate to say Sanctus Sedes when referring to the Holy See? Could use a quick Latin lesson here if anyone knows the difference. Bodding ( talk) 02:40, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Holy See's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "factbook":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 05:15, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
The thing says not to be confused with the vatican city. But the flag and the capital are the exact same. Please explain Whytho00 ( talk) 22:31, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
There seems to be no consensus for the recent edits of an anonymous IP. That's why I invite the ip to explain his edits here and remember that until the discussion is finished is the last stable version that should be visible. Alex2006 ( talk) 08:38, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Hey Ip 49.150.7.2 why dont you reveal yourself and tell us why you are defending the person. Hold on let me gues you done it. stop vandalising the page people want to learn go get your kicks somewhere else Whytho00 ( talk) 22:34, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Ryulong, when you say, "It's called the Taipei cultural offices in every other country", what is the "it" that you are speaking of? And does your comment mean that there are such things as unofficial diplomatic relations? Do you mean that, for instance, Britain has "diplomatic relations" with the Taiwan government, but that they are only unofficial? That would be a strange definition of "diplomatic relations". Esoglou ( talk) 07:28, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Ryulong insists on speaking of "the government of Taiwan" on the grounds that the previous text was based on "semantics and pedantry". If Ryulong's insistence (15 reverts of edits by 3 different editors within 14 hours) on using this expression rather than "the government in Taipei" or "the government in Taiwan" is not itself based on Ryulong's own semantics and pedantry, what else is it based on other than a determination to get across a particular point of view in violation of WP:NPOV? Why else insist on an expression that is not necessary, and that does not correspond to how either side views the relationship established between them? Esoglou ( talk) 15:33, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Why isn't the transfer to the Avignon Papacy mentioned in this article? Seattle ( talk) 22:08, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Can anyone please enlighten me why the Holy See is not considered as a diocese? I never seen a topic here regarding its diocesan structure but purely foreign relations and dicasteries. I thought it is a particular church headed by a bishop, but when I read this article, I was wrong about it. There is a certain Diocese of Rome very different from the Holy See. Two different organizations headed by the same person, weird. -- 112.206.34.55 ( talk) 18:01, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Then why Anakin Skywalker was merged with Darth Vader? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.206.31.89 ( talk) 16:55, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Wrong. The Holy See/Diocese of Rome has the Roman Province as its metropolis. Again, why Anakin Skywalker was merged with Darth Vader? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.206.45.78 ( talk) 17:10, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Please take a look at File:Vatican relations.svg( it's is used in this article )Does Hong Kong have any relation to the Holy See? I'm raising this question because the said picture doesn't show that there's one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight of Gloucestershire ( talk • contribs) 08:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
I think we have been generally using British English in European articles, by convention. I put it above, not realizing that it might be contentious. In the meantime someone changed "organisation" back to "organization." We need to agree on this. American English is usually used in Western Hemisphere affairs (except for Canada and English influence areas like Bermuda, etc. Japan, Philippines, that sort of thing. Student7 ( talk) 02:51, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
The British Foreign and Commonwealth Office speaks of Vatican City as the "capital" of the Holy See, although it compares the legal personality of the Holy See to that of the Crown in Christian monarchies and declares that the Holy See and the state of Vatican City are two international identities. It also distinguishes between the employees of the Holy See (2,750 working in the Roman Curia with another 333 working in the Holy See's diplomatic missions abroad) and the 1,909 employees of the state.[4] The British Ambassador to the Holy See uses more precise language, saying that the Holy See "is not the same as the Vatican City State. … (It) is the universal government of the Catholic Church and operates from the Vatican City State."[5] This agrees exactly with the expression used by the website of the United States Department of State, in giving information on both the Holy See and the Vatican City State: it too says that the Holy See "operates from the Vatican City State".
In the Holy_See#Status_in_international_law section, it is maintained that the Holy See has diplomatic relations with 178 sovereign states, while the Holy_See#Diplomacy section asserts that it has diplomatic relations with 179. The information given in the English Vatican/ Holy See website dissents and agrees with both those assertions. This page states that the Holy See maintains diplomatic relations with 176 sovereign states excluding the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and has special relations with the Russian Federation. This sums to 178. On an alternate page it lists only 176 nations. According to the source given in the article (from the same website) there are 179 states with which the Holy See maintains diplomatic relations.
I have noticed that the first two resources stated above were both last updated on 31st May 2007 while the third one, from the article, doesn't indicate when it was last updated. Interestingly, while the third source includes Malaysia and Botswana the second one omits them. The second source, I presume, is continued on the first external source I gave, so both include the Russian Federation and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta making their sum 178 for the second and 179 for the third source. I am inclined towards the third because of this resource ,which verifies the third source, but cannot ascertain this since it asserts that there are 177 states which have diplomatic relations with the Holy See.
As the Vatican website is supposed to serve as the primary source of verifiable information regarding the Holy See, this ambiguity presents a problem in giving definite encyclopaedic information. There may be other sources that give either consenting or dissenting figures but that information may be subject to bias and would thus be inaccurate. Thuralt ( talk) 10:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
I suggest to move the page to Holy See (Vatican) or something like that and create a disambiguation page here, because of the upcomming film “The Holy See” by Godfrey Reggio. Release date is scheduled for spring 2012, and there are two trailers online. See here: http://blog.documentarychannel.com/post/11672433941/trailers-godfrey-reggios-the-holy-see
-- helohe (talk) 21:02, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
"Under the terms of the Lateran Treaty, the Holy See has extraterritorial authority over 23 sites in Rome and five Italian sites outside of Rome, including the Pontifical Palace at Castel Gandolfo. The same authority is extended under international law over the Apostolic Nunciature of the Holy See in a foreign country."
Just a point of clarification. How can the Lateran Treaty (an accord between Italy and the Vatican) create a recognition of the Holy See's authority over the Apostolic Nunicature in other states? Or is this saying that some other international treaty grants this right to the Holy See? If so, what treaty or other instrument enshrines this right? Or is this, in fact, a self-declared right, or just a matter of established practice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.124.249 ( talk) 17:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
A discussion is ongoing at Talk:List of sovereign states under the Bundling of "UN observer states" and "member states of UN Specialized Agencies" subhead about things like:
Not many editors are involved and there is a desire to broaden the participation. Hope some of you wish to contribute. Just click there and give your views. Thanks. NelsonSudan ( talk) 18:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
I think the second section does not cover all the arguments, and is too much pro, leaving out arguments.
In the recent book "The Case of the Pope: Vatican Accountability for Human Rights Abuse", Penguin, October 2010, the human rights lawyer [ Robertson] summarizes the legal status of the Vatican statehood and doubts the common arguments and backs it up with the several standard texts on international law. He summarizes the consequences of both statehood and non-statehood for the recent paedophile scandals and its decade-long cover-up, how the Vatican sometimes insists on its statehood, other times does not, just as it fits its purpose.
So I think the article conveys a wrong and impression of the real state and should mirror more critically the debate about the Vatican statehood even among specialists for international law. -- Tcheh ( talk) 20:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Holy See says (emphasis added): "The Holy See, not the Vatican City, maintains diplomatic relations with states and participates in international organizations" but Politics_of_Vatican_City#International_organization_participation gives two separate lists of international organizations of which the Holy See and the Vatican City are members. Apokrif ( talk) 16:09, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree with SMasters' assertion that Government of People's Republic of China – Holy See relations would be incorrect but I disagree with his justification. To say that "the Holy See has relations with countries, not governments" is a meaningless assertion. How can there be a difference between a country and a government in this context? The relations are with the countries through the government of that country and, in this specific context, the country and the government are effectively the same thing. When we say "relations with China", we can only mean "relations with the government of the People's Republic of China". The fact that we don't say "government of..." in the article title is because it's superfluous. No English speaker would ever suppose that anything else was meant. -- Richard S ( talk) 06:45, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm... let us consider that we have articles such as Israel – United States relations. In general, I expect that the pattern would be X - Y relations where X and Y are names of countries and not, as has been pointed out above, the names of capitals. Now, when we turn to the Holy See, the problem is that the entity involved here is not a country but a religion, namely the Catholic Church.
Yú Hǎi seems to like consistency and is wondering why we use the phrase "Holy See" in titles. Using the analogy of articles about relations between countries, we might expect that the parallel would be to use the phrase "Catholic Church" in article titles. To this, I can only respond that doing so would sound strange to most people who are familiar with the Catholic Church. The phrase "Holy See" is used to describe the religious, administrative and diplomatic head of the Catholic Church, I admit that using "Holy See" would be somewhat analogous to saying "Washington, D.C.", "Whitehall" or "the Kremlin" and thus would not achieve the consistency that Yú Hǎi seeks. Nonetheless, I think we have to forego consistency and use terms that are used in the real world. "Holy See" is the only way to go.
It's also important to note that there is no substance to Yú Hǎi's arguments about separate articles regarding Relations concerning the People's Republic of China and the Holy See/People's Republic of China – Vatican City State relations and Relations concerning the People's Republic of China and the Holy See/Government of People's Republic of China – Roman Curia relations.
While it would be going too far to say that the Roman Curia and the Holy See are equivalent, the Roman Curia does form an important part of the administration of the Holy See. There is no reason to imagine that any country would have relations with the Roman Curia per se except as part of their relations with the Catholic Church in the form of relations with the Holy See. Almost no countries would have any relations with the Vatican City State as such with the possible exception of Italy. Even then, the head of the Vatican City State is the head of the Holy See (namely the Pope) and so it's takes a stretch to conceive of two separate articles Relations concerning Italy and the Holy See and Relations concerning Italy and the Vatican City State.
The important thing to note here is that most capital cities have a separate city government which is distinct from the government of the country of which it is a capital. The Vatican City State isn't quite so independent. The Vatican City State is both a city and a country and the head of state is the Pope who also happens to be the head of the Holy See and the Catholic Church. What we're talking about is the relations between a country (e.g. the People's Republic of China) and the religion known as "the Catholic Church". It's just that the proper usage here is "the Holy See".
Hope this helps, Yú Hǎi.
-- Richard S ( talk) 06:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Since the "designation used for the particular member" can be Holy See (the government of Vatican City State and Roman Catho...), the designation of other states, when used with Holy See, the particular case, should be particular, too, or it would be a discrimination of other countries. There is no relations between Italy and Holy See, only relations between Italy and Vatican City State, and relations between Government of Italy and Holy See. That the international law allow Holy See to mistreat other countries should not be an excuse of considering writing such "State - Government relations" article neutral. With articles in Template:Foreign relations of the Holy See, only one article is written in neutral sense - Holy See – Palestinian relations: Holy See could not have relations with the State of Palestine (only Vatican City State can), but only relations with Palestinian National Authority. If they can, I may also write an article: My Seat – United States relations.
Or Holy See – Vatican City State relations.
Now one thing is clear and a consensus: Holy See=Government of Vatican City State + Roman Curia.
I know that directly seprate these article may produce problem, so I made a tamplate, which can be here. Hope it helps. –– 虞海 (Yú Hǎi) ( talk) 14:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC )
Is the Holy See "bigger" than Vatican City? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.206.31.89 ( talk) 16:59, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
No where, not here, nor on the "politics: forms of government" page, is there a description of what the Holy See is. I.e., constitutional, parlementary, theocracy?
Nor is there a "clean cut" description of the difference between the Roman Curia and the College of Cardinals. 76.90.74.10 ( talk) 20:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
The article Holy Roman Church seems to me unnecessary. The article itself states that it is the same thing as the Diocese of Rome or the Holy See. The only purpose the article itself seems to serve is to define yet another term (which violates WP:NAD). Given that there does not appear to be a unique topic to be discussed there I propose merging here.
-- Mcorazao ( talk) 15:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
We have the list of 178 countries recognizing the Holy See as sovereign, established diplomatic relations, etc. But are there other states, that do not recognize it as sovereign entity? Reading this makes me think that there aren't such, but still, having in mind the special status of the Holy See and the related Vatican City State, I think it would be good to have such info confirmed (like we have the "states do not recognize Israel as a state" - there the list of countries with no "established relations/suspended relations/withdrawn their recognition" is separate from the list of countries that do not recognize it "as state").
Also, Foreign relations of the Holy See states - "The Holy See maintains formal diplomatic relations with 178 sovereign states, the European Union, and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, and has relations of a special nature with the Palestine Liberation Organization.[12] The Holy See maintains 179 permanent diplomatic missions abroad, of which 73 are non-residential, so that it has in all 106 concrete missions, some of which are accredited not only to the country in which they are situated, but also to one or more other countries or international organizations.", and this contradicts List of diplomatic missions of the Holy See and Nuncio - where there are more than 106 (but less than 179).
It seems that there are two types of recognizing states:
Here, partial list could be made by the states that recognized it before the 1929 Vatican City establishment.
About the diplomatic missions - it is clear, that out of the 181 entities (178 + EU, SMOM, PLO) with relations (but there is also the non state Jerusalem mission, so maybe there are totaly 182 "locations"?), some do not get even a non-resident diplomat (no accreditation) - if the 179 number is correct. But, as there is no clear distinction in the missions of article about resident and non-resident missions it is impossible to check. It would be helpful to have:
Connected with the above and with the sovereignty recognition is the issue of non-diplomatic (eg. Catholic Church only) representatives. As it seems there are:
It would be good if we can find sources showing if some of these ~17 countries do not recognize the Holy See as sovereign, but maybe there are none, as even Saudi Arabia looks to work with it. The respective post about SMOM recognition is here. Alinor ( talk) 17:37, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
End. Esoglou ( talk) 11:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
A note published today by the Holy See Press Office indicates that the Holy See now has a mission with a permanent address in Malawi. In the list above, ">Malawi" should therefore be changed to "=Malawi". Two days ago, the Press Office announced the appointment of two new nuncios, but without indicating where they are to exercise their functions. Presumably the agrément is awaited of the governments of the countries to which they are destined and/or that of the governments of the countries to which their predecessors are being transferred. When that is clarified, perhaps there will also be an announcement of the appointment of someone as the non-resident representative to the government of Vietnam (a diplomatic representative, not an apostolic delegate). That will also require an adjustment to the list above, which ideally should be checked, when possible, against the 2011 Annuario Pontificio, the annual publication that usually becomes available no later than March. Esoglou ( talk) 16:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Greetings, i have since added 'nazi gold' into the 'See Also' area of the article as it is well documented (even on other wikipedia pages such as the vatican city bank page) that the vatican has several hundred million dollars worth of nazi gold for 'safekeeping'. I therefore thought it important to list 'nazi gold' on the 'see also' section of the article as it is related.
Kind regards, anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.151.2 ( talk) 16:17, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
It isn't very clear as to how the Holy See and the State of the Vatican City are different. You say they are repeatedly in both articles, but you don't explain how. Could you please clarify this? Thank you for your time and understanding.-- CafeDelKevin ( talk) 05:30, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The Holy See is a legal, internationally recognized sovereign state established in antiquity by the apostles. It emerged to have its sovereign powers upon exercising the temporal powers of the Pope over the central Italian peninsula centuries ago. Thus, it began operating as a sovereign state (comparable to a medieval kingdom) ruled by a monarch and the Holy See serving its national government until the Italian Unification. The Vatican City is just a territory established by a concordat known as the Lateran Treaty, as opposed to a sovereign state. -- 112.206.61.82 ( talk) 09:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
The article should maybe try to reflect on whether buying islands in the Pacific might procure a greater legal security to the Holy See. Such islands would presumably be listed along with other properties of the Holy See, which already include churches in Italy. The existence of small native populations in these islands might serve as a practical socio-political replacement to the Pontifical States, who were also known as the States of the Holy See. ADM ( talk) 13:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I have in mind that the relations to Israel once were not diplomatic relations, but "relations of a special nature", too. Is that correct? If so, does anyone know when that changed? -- 84.140.149.182 ( talk) 20:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there another page, or, if not, should there be a section on the foreign relations of the vatican? not to mention a background to the history of the external affairs of the vatican, which is quite strong. Lihaas ( talk) 02:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I was hoping that someone could add an etymology section to this article, specifically explaining the word "See". I've never seen the word "see" used to describe a plot of land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.0.133 ( talk • contribs)
I guess making a distinction between the Diocese of Rome and the Holy See is fine as far as it goes, but it seems to me that some mention must be made of the diocese over which the see presides. Let me point out that Diocese of Rome currently redirects to Holy See. That seems to be natural to me, although I would have no objection to having it redirect to Bishop of Rome instead.
Seeing as Diocese of Rome redirects here, it seems to me that something should be said about the actual diocese in this article. Rwflammang ( talk) 21:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I have given it some thought: how about we just put a hat note at the top of the page? It seems like a simple idea — it's not that unnoticeable and yet it isn't as unconvenient as a disam. page is. It should just say something like "for the other Holy Sees in the Christian Orthodox Church, see Episcopal See". Is anyone with me here? ~ Troy 19:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be called "See of St. Peter"? There are other "Holy Sees" (ie: See of St. Mark). This might be offensive to both the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox. "See" (in this case) means "Chair" of the chief Bishop who "oversees" his diocese. And the term "Holy See" shouldn't be strictly applied to Rome. Even so, the term "Pope" wasn't used by Rome until centuries after the Coptic Pope (Pope Heraclas was called this before anyone else even). 207.6.229.114 19:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned above, the term "Holy See" is recognized internationally as referring to the central government of the Catholic Church. In fact, the revised opening sentence is rather odd in that it "translates" See of St. Peter as Sancta Sedes, and you don't need to know much latin to realize that St. Peter doesn't appear there at all. The Holy See is the term the Vatican uses itself, as reflected in the first "References" link. I understand the point that "Holy" may be applied to other episcopal sees. But Holy See is the commonly used title for the Vatican's government. It is used by that body itself, other nations (U.S. embassador to the Holy See [4], British embassador to the Holy See [5]), international bodies (United Nations [6]), and even other religous bodies. Perhaps some may indeed find it "offensive", but it is not WP's place to make political statements itself by changing names of organizations or bodies. Also, there should have been more time for discussion before making such a change.-- Anietor 02:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
The politics don't matter as much as other things might. The anonymous person said "There are other 'Holy Sees' (ie: See of St. Mark)". Note the article Apostolic See. Rome isn't the centre of everything. There are others. The new name (which I put up) is "See of St Peter" & rightfully so. Even the Catholics admit it. You want sources? Here you go [7] [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], etc etc... Also, you can tell that it is the (holy) see of St Peter. How can you say it isn't of St Peter? Note: links 6 & 7 say "see of rome", which is also specific enough. Simply put, sticking in "Holy See" isn't enough. And, frankly, what politicians or even the general public might say isn't always the proper way of saying it. Please consider the other view. Thanks. ~ Troy 02:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
You can't ask us to prove a negative, 207.6.229.114. Holy See is the official title used by that body, recognized by other political entities. As a political entity itself, it IS relevant what politicians think. And what makes this argument rather silly is that Holy See links to this article. If Holy See links to it, and it is itself the official title, this is all a rather bizarre exercise in political correctness gone amuck. -- Anietor 03:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I think there should be disambiguation page called "Holy See (Disambiguation)". If there's a link to "Holy See", it should redirect you to that page. Just an idea. ~ Troy 03:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Anything that isn't directly called "Holy See" is likely to be an improvement from when I first looked at the article. If we use Majoreditor's idea, might I suggest linking the second fork as " Apostolic See" instead of " Episcopal See"? The Patriarchs are the only successors to the Apostles, but bishops are second-ranking clergy members & form a different line (which isn't equal to Apostolic succession). Any ideas on this opinion? ~ Troy 04:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
This is rather like the arguemtns over the name Royal Navy, in conventional english usage, if someone refers simply to the Royal navy they almost certianly mean the naval forces fo the United Kingdom, even though the literal translation of several country's own name for their anvy would be "Royal navy", when rendered into english they are generally translated as royal Norwegian Navy, etc, and even where the navies are english speaking, a similar identifier is used, Royal Australian navy etc. Someone talking in English about the Holy See is almost certain to be referring to Rome, with other forms beging more fully qualified. In the rare case wehre a suer is actually wanting a different Holy See, they can be directed to a disambiguation page using a hat note at the top of the page. David Underdown 10:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't the Pope an archbishop? Certainly the Holy See is a diocese of importance within the Church; and yet strangely, the pontiff remains merely the Bishop of Rome. Any particular reason why? VolatileChemical 13:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Are you asking why Wikipedia doesn't list him as an Archbishop or why the Catholic Church doesn't use that title? The answer to the first is because the Pope is generally not called an Archbishop so it would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to refer to him as such (at least in my opinion). As to why the church doesn't use the term I don't think I can give a very satisfactory answer. In actuality, he is an Archbishop. He is the Metropolitan of the the Roman province which is the ecclesiastical territory of the actual (arch)diocese of Rome. I belive he is not called Archbishop of Rome very often because the simpler title Bishop of Rome is older and more direct. His authority over the Catholic Church is not directly tied to his archepiscopal authority over the Roman Metropolitan province, but rather to his position as the successor of Peter. As I said I don't think that this is a very satisfactory answer but I hope it helps.-- Kjrjr ( talk) 18:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles generally have a "See also" section. Very often, the articles listed in the "See also" section are also linked to within the article, sometimes more than once. Many links within articles merely explain some particular word and do not lead to the articles on cognate matters that the "See also" section is meant to point to; and not everybody will click on every link given within an article. So a link within an article is by no means the same as a mention in the "See also" section. I see no reason why this article should be different from the generality of Wikipedia articles. But perhaps Srnec can explain why this article should be treated differently. Lima 04:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I recently revised the second paragraph to
User Lima subsequently changed this to
I disagree with this edit but it's not a huge deal. I'll register my concern here and anybody else who might have an opinion can comment or revise. The term "Holy See" is used by other patriarchs (e.g. [ example of Holy See of Constantinople], [ example of Holy See of Jerusalem], [ example of Holy See of Alexandria]). The "appropriation" of the term by the Bishop of Rome has is not and never has been generally recognized in the Christian community. Although in Western culture (whose history heavily owes to the Roman Catholic Church) it is common to reserve the term for the Pope, this is strictly speaking an inappropriate (and insulting to the others) use of the term, despite what the RCC might say about it. I had attempted to compromise in my revision by only making a small mention of the more general use of the term but Lima has essentially wiped out all the meaning of what I said.
My point is that the article is in reality rather POV and a little more attempt at neutrality, particularly on religious subjects, is appropriate.
-- Mcorazao 14:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
That's an interesting argument. :-) So the argument is that because other Sees are not as arrogant as Rome then Rome wins? -- Mcorazao 19:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Could an editor please review the article as there is due to some person nonsense within the article. This is in section 2 of the article. Offending text 'Yo momma is so fat'
Would a lock on this page be appropriate?
Dean Sharpe 23:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia recognizes that both RCC and CC are valid names for the Church, and it doesn't take sides saying one is better than the other. In the case of a conflict, we must look to the style of the earliest contributor. In this case RCC was used first by Simon_J_Kissane on 08:12, 14 October 2001. I'd urge editors to just accept this, and find much more productive ways to contribute istead of arguing over a single silly word.-- Andrew c 04:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the opening to a previous version because the most recent one had a couple of problems.
Pmadrid 09:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Why are you rewrite History? Holy See does not primarily refer to Rome. How self centred can you get?? Please!!! I suggest you write a new Entry - "Holy See of Rome" . It is extremely offensive and biased to say the Holy See is exclusively or primarily "Rome" (old Rome) since it disregards all Historic truth. What happened to the 7 Holy Sees of the Holy Church?
Re-writing history is like burning the books by NAZI Germany. A Holy See was and is in reference to one of the Holy Patriarchates of the Holy Roman Empire of Byzantium in the Early Church. Furthermore the transfer of Rome to the East, namely modern day Istanbul meant that the See of Rome was removed from Old Rome and now was to be found in or granted to New Rome - Nova Roma which till this day is still the title given to the See of Constantinople. Hint: take off your blinkers and you will notice that the centre of the Universe isn't Rome.-- 203.59.65.175 08:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm interested in monitoring the development of the treatment of the dissolved union of Serbia and Montenegro with regard to the foreign relations of the Vatican and the church hierarchy. See also Talk:Roman Catholicism in Montenegro. -- Joy [shallot] 19:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
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Lihaas ( talk) 02:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Is it the PLO or the Palestine Authority?
Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. (18) see Rom 3,8 This is the legal principle cited as the basis for the enciclical Humanae Vitae and is the foundation for the teaching concerning human fertility .
This showed up in mid-March:
Someone else found the kidnapping part troublesome, and I couldn't agree with the "beacon of moral authority" part. How many Buddhists (or Unitarian Universalists, for that matter) refer to the Holy See for morality? That the Pope dictates morality for Catholics is already stated in not so many words near the top of the article. That said, it may be worth a sentence explaining the pervasiveness of the influence of the Holy See. To Christians whose final arbitor of morality is other people rather than the spirit within, I refer you to Romans 10. -- Ke4roh 16:46, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I can also add that "Pope's" "moral authority" is not regarded as such by the Orthodox Church. Everyone remembers that the "Popes" were behind sending the Fourth Crusade against the city of Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire, the fact that will be never forgotten in Russia and other Orthodox Christianity countries.-- Victor V V ( talk) 04:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I have deleted irrelevant and inflamatory remarks by an unidentified user from this page. Publius 22:09, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone please tell me how to have a devotional mass said at the Vatican? I went on the official website for the Holy See and there was no mention about this although there is an online offerring for Peter's Pence. What I am looking for is this: my Uncle passed away and we usually go to our local parish when someone dies , make an offering at the office, the secretary then writes the name on a list for masses to be said for the deceased person, and then we get a card to give to the family of the deceased stating that there will be a mass said for the deceased on such date(s) and time(s); I just thought it would be cool to have one said at the Vatican instead of the local parish (even though I personally am Agnostic and don't believe in any of this stuff- but it makes the deceased's loved ones feel better so I feel that is good- so, I do it for them, not for my own beliefs). Is there a website where I can "buy" masses to be said at the Vatican for the deceased? Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.136 ( talk) 16:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The Holy See is the Diocese of Rome. Also, there's confusion between Vatican city and Holy See in the article and infobox. To explain it simply:
1)the Roman Catholic Church is mainly divided into episcopal sees (jurisdictions led by bishops) called dioceses.
2)The Diocese of Rome, the Holy See, has primacy because the Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter. And so all the others dioceses are in communiom with Rome and must accept the fact that the Bishop of Rome is the head of the Church.
3)The holy see has state sovereignity over a piece of land in it: that is Vatican City. There, the Pope is not only the Bishop but the Head of State.
If we separate the Diocese of Rome and the Holy See we just contradict the whole point of Roman catholicism. Barjimoa ( talk) 19:26, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Could you put a template(hatnote) in the article? Manabimasu ( talk) 22:41, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Template inserted in both articles. Lawtheagoraphobic (talk) 22:00, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
In this Code the terms Apostolic See or Holy See mean not only the Roman Pontiff, but also, unless the contrary is clear from the nature of things or from the context, the Secretariat of State, the Council for the public affairs of the Church, and the other Institutes of the Roman Curia.. The Roman Curia is included in the Holy See in the Canon law of the Catholic Church. The Roman Curia is their central government. Also see the article Temporal power of the Holy See. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 23:08, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
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I am not sure how to best address this issue, but "Jurisdiction = Vatican City..." seams incorrect, or at least incomplete. "Jurisdiction" does not quite describe the relationship that the Holy See has with Vatican City, per se. The Holy See is the symbolic seat of the Pope, who has jurisdiction over Catholics within the immediate Diocese of Rome, as well as all over the world (the conflicting definition of jurisdiction was cause minor confusion in another discussion). The Vatican is a territory administered by the Holy See, perhaps, maybe? I do not quite know how to portray this on the template. -- Zfish118 ( talk) 02:48, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
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What are the arguments for and against of including the Template:Pentarchy in the footer of this article, please? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 17:14, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
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I'm not sure but Sancta seems to be the feminine and Sanctus is the neuter. Would it be more appropriate to say Sanctus Sedes when referring to the Holy See? Could use a quick Latin lesson here if anyone knows the difference. Bodding ( talk) 02:40, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Holy See's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "factbook":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 05:15, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
The thing says not to be confused with the vatican city. But the flag and the capital are the exact same. Please explain Whytho00 ( talk) 22:31, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
There seems to be no consensus for the recent edits of an anonymous IP. That's why I invite the ip to explain his edits here and remember that until the discussion is finished is the last stable version that should be visible. Alex2006 ( talk) 08:38, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Hey Ip 49.150.7.2 why dont you reveal yourself and tell us why you are defending the person. Hold on let me gues you done it. stop vandalising the page people want to learn go get your kicks somewhere else Whytho00 ( talk) 22:34, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Ryulong, when you say, "It's called the Taipei cultural offices in every other country", what is the "it" that you are speaking of? And does your comment mean that there are such things as unofficial diplomatic relations? Do you mean that, for instance, Britain has "diplomatic relations" with the Taiwan government, but that they are only unofficial? That would be a strange definition of "diplomatic relations". Esoglou ( talk) 07:28, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Ryulong insists on speaking of "the government of Taiwan" on the grounds that the previous text was based on "semantics and pedantry". If Ryulong's insistence (15 reverts of edits by 3 different editors within 14 hours) on using this expression rather than "the government in Taipei" or "the government in Taiwan" is not itself based on Ryulong's own semantics and pedantry, what else is it based on other than a determination to get across a particular point of view in violation of WP:NPOV? Why else insist on an expression that is not necessary, and that does not correspond to how either side views the relationship established between them? Esoglou ( talk) 15:33, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Why isn't the transfer to the Avignon Papacy mentioned in this article? Seattle ( talk) 22:08, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Can anyone please enlighten me why the Holy See is not considered as a diocese? I never seen a topic here regarding its diocesan structure but purely foreign relations and dicasteries. I thought it is a particular church headed by a bishop, but when I read this article, I was wrong about it. There is a certain Diocese of Rome very different from the Holy See. Two different organizations headed by the same person, weird. -- 112.206.34.55 ( talk) 18:01, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Then why Anakin Skywalker was merged with Darth Vader? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.206.31.89 ( talk) 16:55, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Wrong. The Holy See/Diocese of Rome has the Roman Province as its metropolis. Again, why Anakin Skywalker was merged with Darth Vader? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.206.45.78 ( talk) 17:10, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Please take a look at File:Vatican relations.svg( it's is used in this article )Does Hong Kong have any relation to the Holy See? I'm raising this question because the said picture doesn't show that there's one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight of Gloucestershire ( talk • contribs) 08:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
I think we have been generally using British English in European articles, by convention. I put it above, not realizing that it might be contentious. In the meantime someone changed "organisation" back to "organization." We need to agree on this. American English is usually used in Western Hemisphere affairs (except for Canada and English influence areas like Bermuda, etc. Japan, Philippines, that sort of thing. Student7 ( talk) 02:51, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
The British Foreign and Commonwealth Office speaks of Vatican City as the "capital" of the Holy See, although it compares the legal personality of the Holy See to that of the Crown in Christian monarchies and declares that the Holy See and the state of Vatican City are two international identities. It also distinguishes between the employees of the Holy See (2,750 working in the Roman Curia with another 333 working in the Holy See's diplomatic missions abroad) and the 1,909 employees of the state.[4] The British Ambassador to the Holy See uses more precise language, saying that the Holy See "is not the same as the Vatican City State. … (It) is the universal government of the Catholic Church and operates from the Vatican City State."[5] This agrees exactly with the expression used by the website of the United States Department of State, in giving information on both the Holy See and the Vatican City State: it too says that the Holy See "operates from the Vatican City State".
In the Holy_See#Status_in_international_law section, it is maintained that the Holy See has diplomatic relations with 178 sovereign states, while the Holy_See#Diplomacy section asserts that it has diplomatic relations with 179. The information given in the English Vatican/ Holy See website dissents and agrees with both those assertions. This page states that the Holy See maintains diplomatic relations with 176 sovereign states excluding the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and has special relations with the Russian Federation. This sums to 178. On an alternate page it lists only 176 nations. According to the source given in the article (from the same website) there are 179 states with which the Holy See maintains diplomatic relations.
I have noticed that the first two resources stated above were both last updated on 31st May 2007 while the third one, from the article, doesn't indicate when it was last updated. Interestingly, while the third source includes Malaysia and Botswana the second one omits them. The second source, I presume, is continued on the first external source I gave, so both include the Russian Federation and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta making their sum 178 for the second and 179 for the third source. I am inclined towards the third because of this resource ,which verifies the third source, but cannot ascertain this since it asserts that there are 177 states which have diplomatic relations with the Holy See.
As the Vatican website is supposed to serve as the primary source of verifiable information regarding the Holy See, this ambiguity presents a problem in giving definite encyclopaedic information. There may be other sources that give either consenting or dissenting figures but that information may be subject to bias and would thus be inaccurate. Thuralt ( talk) 10:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
I suggest to move the page to Holy See (Vatican) or something like that and create a disambiguation page here, because of the upcomming film “The Holy See” by Godfrey Reggio. Release date is scheduled for spring 2012, and there are two trailers online. See here: http://blog.documentarychannel.com/post/11672433941/trailers-godfrey-reggios-the-holy-see
-- helohe (talk) 21:02, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
"Under the terms of the Lateran Treaty, the Holy See has extraterritorial authority over 23 sites in Rome and five Italian sites outside of Rome, including the Pontifical Palace at Castel Gandolfo. The same authority is extended under international law over the Apostolic Nunciature of the Holy See in a foreign country."
Just a point of clarification. How can the Lateran Treaty (an accord between Italy and the Vatican) create a recognition of the Holy See's authority over the Apostolic Nunicature in other states? Or is this saying that some other international treaty grants this right to the Holy See? If so, what treaty or other instrument enshrines this right? Or is this, in fact, a self-declared right, or just a matter of established practice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.124.249 ( talk) 17:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
A discussion is ongoing at Talk:List of sovereign states under the Bundling of "UN observer states" and "member states of UN Specialized Agencies" subhead about things like:
Not many editors are involved and there is a desire to broaden the participation. Hope some of you wish to contribute. Just click there and give your views. Thanks. NelsonSudan ( talk) 18:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
I think the second section does not cover all the arguments, and is too much pro, leaving out arguments.
In the recent book "The Case of the Pope: Vatican Accountability for Human Rights Abuse", Penguin, October 2010, the human rights lawyer [ Robertson] summarizes the legal status of the Vatican statehood and doubts the common arguments and backs it up with the several standard texts on international law. He summarizes the consequences of both statehood and non-statehood for the recent paedophile scandals and its decade-long cover-up, how the Vatican sometimes insists on its statehood, other times does not, just as it fits its purpose.
So I think the article conveys a wrong and impression of the real state and should mirror more critically the debate about the Vatican statehood even among specialists for international law. -- Tcheh ( talk) 20:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Holy See says (emphasis added): "The Holy See, not the Vatican City, maintains diplomatic relations with states and participates in international organizations" but Politics_of_Vatican_City#International_organization_participation gives two separate lists of international organizations of which the Holy See and the Vatican City are members. Apokrif ( talk) 16:09, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree with SMasters' assertion that Government of People's Republic of China – Holy See relations would be incorrect but I disagree with his justification. To say that "the Holy See has relations with countries, not governments" is a meaningless assertion. How can there be a difference between a country and a government in this context? The relations are with the countries through the government of that country and, in this specific context, the country and the government are effectively the same thing. When we say "relations with China", we can only mean "relations with the government of the People's Republic of China". The fact that we don't say "government of..." in the article title is because it's superfluous. No English speaker would ever suppose that anything else was meant. -- Richard S ( talk) 06:45, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm... let us consider that we have articles such as Israel – United States relations. In general, I expect that the pattern would be X - Y relations where X and Y are names of countries and not, as has been pointed out above, the names of capitals. Now, when we turn to the Holy See, the problem is that the entity involved here is not a country but a religion, namely the Catholic Church.
Yú Hǎi seems to like consistency and is wondering why we use the phrase "Holy See" in titles. Using the analogy of articles about relations between countries, we might expect that the parallel would be to use the phrase "Catholic Church" in article titles. To this, I can only respond that doing so would sound strange to most people who are familiar with the Catholic Church. The phrase "Holy See" is used to describe the religious, administrative and diplomatic head of the Catholic Church, I admit that using "Holy See" would be somewhat analogous to saying "Washington, D.C.", "Whitehall" or "the Kremlin" and thus would not achieve the consistency that Yú Hǎi seeks. Nonetheless, I think we have to forego consistency and use terms that are used in the real world. "Holy See" is the only way to go.
It's also important to note that there is no substance to Yú Hǎi's arguments about separate articles regarding Relations concerning the People's Republic of China and the Holy See/People's Republic of China – Vatican City State relations and Relations concerning the People's Republic of China and the Holy See/Government of People's Republic of China – Roman Curia relations.
While it would be going too far to say that the Roman Curia and the Holy See are equivalent, the Roman Curia does form an important part of the administration of the Holy See. There is no reason to imagine that any country would have relations with the Roman Curia per se except as part of their relations with the Catholic Church in the form of relations with the Holy See. Almost no countries would have any relations with the Vatican City State as such with the possible exception of Italy. Even then, the head of the Vatican City State is the head of the Holy See (namely the Pope) and so it's takes a stretch to conceive of two separate articles Relations concerning Italy and the Holy See and Relations concerning Italy and the Vatican City State.
The important thing to note here is that most capital cities have a separate city government which is distinct from the government of the country of which it is a capital. The Vatican City State isn't quite so independent. The Vatican City State is both a city and a country and the head of state is the Pope who also happens to be the head of the Holy See and the Catholic Church. What we're talking about is the relations between a country (e.g. the People's Republic of China) and the religion known as "the Catholic Church". It's just that the proper usage here is "the Holy See".
Hope this helps, Yú Hǎi.
-- Richard S ( talk) 06:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Since the "designation used for the particular member" can be Holy See (the government of Vatican City State and Roman Catho...), the designation of other states, when used with Holy See, the particular case, should be particular, too, or it would be a discrimination of other countries. There is no relations between Italy and Holy See, only relations between Italy and Vatican City State, and relations between Government of Italy and Holy See. That the international law allow Holy See to mistreat other countries should not be an excuse of considering writing such "State - Government relations" article neutral. With articles in Template:Foreign relations of the Holy See, only one article is written in neutral sense - Holy See – Palestinian relations: Holy See could not have relations with the State of Palestine (only Vatican City State can), but only relations with Palestinian National Authority. If they can, I may also write an article: My Seat – United States relations.
Or Holy See – Vatican City State relations.
Now one thing is clear and a consensus: Holy See=Government of Vatican City State + Roman Curia.
I know that directly seprate these article may produce problem, so I made a tamplate, which can be here. Hope it helps. –– 虞海 (Yú Hǎi) ( talk) 14:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC )
Is the Holy See "bigger" than Vatican City? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.206.31.89 ( talk) 16:59, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
No where, not here, nor on the "politics: forms of government" page, is there a description of what the Holy See is. I.e., constitutional, parlementary, theocracy?
Nor is there a "clean cut" description of the difference between the Roman Curia and the College of Cardinals. 76.90.74.10 ( talk) 20:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
The article Holy Roman Church seems to me unnecessary. The article itself states that it is the same thing as the Diocese of Rome or the Holy See. The only purpose the article itself seems to serve is to define yet another term (which violates WP:NAD). Given that there does not appear to be a unique topic to be discussed there I propose merging here.
-- Mcorazao ( talk) 15:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
We have the list of 178 countries recognizing the Holy See as sovereign, established diplomatic relations, etc. But are there other states, that do not recognize it as sovereign entity? Reading this makes me think that there aren't such, but still, having in mind the special status of the Holy See and the related Vatican City State, I think it would be good to have such info confirmed (like we have the "states do not recognize Israel as a state" - there the list of countries with no "established relations/suspended relations/withdrawn their recognition" is separate from the list of countries that do not recognize it "as state").
Also, Foreign relations of the Holy See states - "The Holy See maintains formal diplomatic relations with 178 sovereign states, the European Union, and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, and has relations of a special nature with the Palestine Liberation Organization.[12] The Holy See maintains 179 permanent diplomatic missions abroad, of which 73 are non-residential, so that it has in all 106 concrete missions, some of which are accredited not only to the country in which they are situated, but also to one or more other countries or international organizations.", and this contradicts List of diplomatic missions of the Holy See and Nuncio - where there are more than 106 (but less than 179).
It seems that there are two types of recognizing states:
Here, partial list could be made by the states that recognized it before the 1929 Vatican City establishment.
About the diplomatic missions - it is clear, that out of the 181 entities (178 + EU, SMOM, PLO) with relations (but there is also the non state Jerusalem mission, so maybe there are totaly 182 "locations"?), some do not get even a non-resident diplomat (no accreditation) - if the 179 number is correct. But, as there is no clear distinction in the missions of article about resident and non-resident missions it is impossible to check. It would be helpful to have:
Connected with the above and with the sovereignty recognition is the issue of non-diplomatic (eg. Catholic Church only) representatives. As it seems there are:
It would be good if we can find sources showing if some of these ~17 countries do not recognize the Holy See as sovereign, but maybe there are none, as even Saudi Arabia looks to work with it. The respective post about SMOM recognition is here. Alinor ( talk) 17:37, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
End. Esoglou ( talk) 11:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
A note published today by the Holy See Press Office indicates that the Holy See now has a mission with a permanent address in Malawi. In the list above, ">Malawi" should therefore be changed to "=Malawi". Two days ago, the Press Office announced the appointment of two new nuncios, but without indicating where they are to exercise their functions. Presumably the agrément is awaited of the governments of the countries to which they are destined and/or that of the governments of the countries to which their predecessors are being transferred. When that is clarified, perhaps there will also be an announcement of the appointment of someone as the non-resident representative to the government of Vietnam (a diplomatic representative, not an apostolic delegate). That will also require an adjustment to the list above, which ideally should be checked, when possible, against the 2011 Annuario Pontificio, the annual publication that usually becomes available no later than March. Esoglou ( talk) 16:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Greetings, i have since added 'nazi gold' into the 'See Also' area of the article as it is well documented (even on other wikipedia pages such as the vatican city bank page) that the vatican has several hundred million dollars worth of nazi gold for 'safekeeping'. I therefore thought it important to list 'nazi gold' on the 'see also' section of the article as it is related.
Kind regards, anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.151.2 ( talk) 16:17, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
It isn't very clear as to how the Holy See and the State of the Vatican City are different. You say they are repeatedly in both articles, but you don't explain how. Could you please clarify this? Thank you for your time and understanding.-- CafeDelKevin ( talk) 05:30, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The Holy See is a legal, internationally recognized sovereign state established in antiquity by the apostles. It emerged to have its sovereign powers upon exercising the temporal powers of the Pope over the central Italian peninsula centuries ago. Thus, it began operating as a sovereign state (comparable to a medieval kingdom) ruled by a monarch and the Holy See serving its national government until the Italian Unification. The Vatican City is just a territory established by a concordat known as the Lateran Treaty, as opposed to a sovereign state. -- 112.206.61.82 ( talk) 09:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
The article should maybe try to reflect on whether buying islands in the Pacific might procure a greater legal security to the Holy See. Such islands would presumably be listed along with other properties of the Holy See, which already include churches in Italy. The existence of small native populations in these islands might serve as a practical socio-political replacement to the Pontifical States, who were also known as the States of the Holy See. ADM ( talk) 13:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I have in mind that the relations to Israel once were not diplomatic relations, but "relations of a special nature", too. Is that correct? If so, does anyone know when that changed? -- 84.140.149.182 ( talk) 20:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there another page, or, if not, should there be a section on the foreign relations of the vatican? not to mention a background to the history of the external affairs of the vatican, which is quite strong. Lihaas ( talk) 02:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I was hoping that someone could add an etymology section to this article, specifically explaining the word "See". I've never seen the word "see" used to describe a plot of land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.0.133 ( talk • contribs)
I guess making a distinction between the Diocese of Rome and the Holy See is fine as far as it goes, but it seems to me that some mention must be made of the diocese over which the see presides. Let me point out that Diocese of Rome currently redirects to Holy See. That seems to be natural to me, although I would have no objection to having it redirect to Bishop of Rome instead.
Seeing as Diocese of Rome redirects here, it seems to me that something should be said about the actual diocese in this article. Rwflammang ( talk) 21:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I have given it some thought: how about we just put a hat note at the top of the page? It seems like a simple idea — it's not that unnoticeable and yet it isn't as unconvenient as a disam. page is. It should just say something like "for the other Holy Sees in the Christian Orthodox Church, see Episcopal See". Is anyone with me here? ~ Troy 19:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be called "See of St. Peter"? There are other "Holy Sees" (ie: See of St. Mark). This might be offensive to both the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox. "See" (in this case) means "Chair" of the chief Bishop who "oversees" his diocese. And the term "Holy See" shouldn't be strictly applied to Rome. Even so, the term "Pope" wasn't used by Rome until centuries after the Coptic Pope (Pope Heraclas was called this before anyone else even). 207.6.229.114 19:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned above, the term "Holy See" is recognized internationally as referring to the central government of the Catholic Church. In fact, the revised opening sentence is rather odd in that it "translates" See of St. Peter as Sancta Sedes, and you don't need to know much latin to realize that St. Peter doesn't appear there at all. The Holy See is the term the Vatican uses itself, as reflected in the first "References" link. I understand the point that "Holy" may be applied to other episcopal sees. But Holy See is the commonly used title for the Vatican's government. It is used by that body itself, other nations (U.S. embassador to the Holy See [4], British embassador to the Holy See [5]), international bodies (United Nations [6]), and even other religous bodies. Perhaps some may indeed find it "offensive", but it is not WP's place to make political statements itself by changing names of organizations or bodies. Also, there should have been more time for discussion before making such a change.-- Anietor 02:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
The politics don't matter as much as other things might. The anonymous person said "There are other 'Holy Sees' (ie: See of St. Mark)". Note the article Apostolic See. Rome isn't the centre of everything. There are others. The new name (which I put up) is "See of St Peter" & rightfully so. Even the Catholics admit it. You want sources? Here you go [7] [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], etc etc... Also, you can tell that it is the (holy) see of St Peter. How can you say it isn't of St Peter? Note: links 6 & 7 say "see of rome", which is also specific enough. Simply put, sticking in "Holy See" isn't enough. And, frankly, what politicians or even the general public might say isn't always the proper way of saying it. Please consider the other view. Thanks. ~ Troy 02:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
You can't ask us to prove a negative, 207.6.229.114. Holy See is the official title used by that body, recognized by other political entities. As a political entity itself, it IS relevant what politicians think. And what makes this argument rather silly is that Holy See links to this article. If Holy See links to it, and it is itself the official title, this is all a rather bizarre exercise in political correctness gone amuck. -- Anietor 03:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I think there should be disambiguation page called "Holy See (Disambiguation)". If there's a link to "Holy See", it should redirect you to that page. Just an idea. ~ Troy 03:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Anything that isn't directly called "Holy See" is likely to be an improvement from when I first looked at the article. If we use Majoreditor's idea, might I suggest linking the second fork as " Apostolic See" instead of " Episcopal See"? The Patriarchs are the only successors to the Apostles, but bishops are second-ranking clergy members & form a different line (which isn't equal to Apostolic succession). Any ideas on this opinion? ~ Troy 04:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
This is rather like the arguemtns over the name Royal Navy, in conventional english usage, if someone refers simply to the Royal navy they almost certianly mean the naval forces fo the United Kingdom, even though the literal translation of several country's own name for their anvy would be "Royal navy", when rendered into english they are generally translated as royal Norwegian Navy, etc, and even where the navies are english speaking, a similar identifier is used, Royal Australian navy etc. Someone talking in English about the Holy See is almost certain to be referring to Rome, with other forms beging more fully qualified. In the rare case wehre a suer is actually wanting a different Holy See, they can be directed to a disambiguation page using a hat note at the top of the page. David Underdown 10:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't the Pope an archbishop? Certainly the Holy See is a diocese of importance within the Church; and yet strangely, the pontiff remains merely the Bishop of Rome. Any particular reason why? VolatileChemical 13:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Are you asking why Wikipedia doesn't list him as an Archbishop or why the Catholic Church doesn't use that title? The answer to the first is because the Pope is generally not called an Archbishop so it would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to refer to him as such (at least in my opinion). As to why the church doesn't use the term I don't think I can give a very satisfactory answer. In actuality, he is an Archbishop. He is the Metropolitan of the the Roman province which is the ecclesiastical territory of the actual (arch)diocese of Rome. I belive he is not called Archbishop of Rome very often because the simpler title Bishop of Rome is older and more direct. His authority over the Catholic Church is not directly tied to his archepiscopal authority over the Roman Metropolitan province, but rather to his position as the successor of Peter. As I said I don't think that this is a very satisfactory answer but I hope it helps.-- Kjrjr ( talk) 18:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles generally have a "See also" section. Very often, the articles listed in the "See also" section are also linked to within the article, sometimes more than once. Many links within articles merely explain some particular word and do not lead to the articles on cognate matters that the "See also" section is meant to point to; and not everybody will click on every link given within an article. So a link within an article is by no means the same as a mention in the "See also" section. I see no reason why this article should be different from the generality of Wikipedia articles. But perhaps Srnec can explain why this article should be treated differently. Lima 04:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I recently revised the second paragraph to
User Lima subsequently changed this to
I disagree with this edit but it's not a huge deal. I'll register my concern here and anybody else who might have an opinion can comment or revise. The term "Holy See" is used by other patriarchs (e.g. [ example of Holy See of Constantinople], [ example of Holy See of Jerusalem], [ example of Holy See of Alexandria]). The "appropriation" of the term by the Bishop of Rome has is not and never has been generally recognized in the Christian community. Although in Western culture (whose history heavily owes to the Roman Catholic Church) it is common to reserve the term for the Pope, this is strictly speaking an inappropriate (and insulting to the others) use of the term, despite what the RCC might say about it. I had attempted to compromise in my revision by only making a small mention of the more general use of the term but Lima has essentially wiped out all the meaning of what I said.
My point is that the article is in reality rather POV and a little more attempt at neutrality, particularly on religious subjects, is appropriate.
-- Mcorazao 14:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
That's an interesting argument. :-) So the argument is that because other Sees are not as arrogant as Rome then Rome wins? -- Mcorazao 19:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Could an editor please review the article as there is due to some person nonsense within the article. This is in section 2 of the article. Offending text 'Yo momma is so fat'
Would a lock on this page be appropriate?
Dean Sharpe 23:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia recognizes that both RCC and CC are valid names for the Church, and it doesn't take sides saying one is better than the other. In the case of a conflict, we must look to the style of the earliest contributor. In this case RCC was used first by Simon_J_Kissane on 08:12, 14 October 2001. I'd urge editors to just accept this, and find much more productive ways to contribute istead of arguing over a single silly word.-- Andrew c 04:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the opening to a previous version because the most recent one had a couple of problems.
Pmadrid 09:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Why are you rewrite History? Holy See does not primarily refer to Rome. How self centred can you get?? Please!!! I suggest you write a new Entry - "Holy See of Rome" . It is extremely offensive and biased to say the Holy See is exclusively or primarily "Rome" (old Rome) since it disregards all Historic truth. What happened to the 7 Holy Sees of the Holy Church?
Re-writing history is like burning the books by NAZI Germany. A Holy See was and is in reference to one of the Holy Patriarchates of the Holy Roman Empire of Byzantium in the Early Church. Furthermore the transfer of Rome to the East, namely modern day Istanbul meant that the See of Rome was removed from Old Rome and now was to be found in or granted to New Rome - Nova Roma which till this day is still the title given to the See of Constantinople. Hint: take off your blinkers and you will notice that the centre of the Universe isn't Rome.-- 203.59.65.175 08:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm interested in monitoring the development of the treatment of the dissolved union of Serbia and Montenegro with regard to the foreign relations of the Vatican and the church hierarchy. See also Talk:Roman Catholicism in Montenegro. -- Joy [shallot] 19:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
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Lihaas ( talk) 02:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Is it the PLO or the Palestine Authority?
Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. (18) see Rom 3,8 This is the legal principle cited as the basis for the enciclical Humanae Vitae and is the foundation for the teaching concerning human fertility .
This showed up in mid-March:
Someone else found the kidnapping part troublesome, and I couldn't agree with the "beacon of moral authority" part. How many Buddhists (or Unitarian Universalists, for that matter) refer to the Holy See for morality? That the Pope dictates morality for Catholics is already stated in not so many words near the top of the article. That said, it may be worth a sentence explaining the pervasiveness of the influence of the Holy See. To Christians whose final arbitor of morality is other people rather than the spirit within, I refer you to Romans 10. -- Ke4roh 16:46, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I can also add that "Pope's" "moral authority" is not regarded as such by the Orthodox Church. Everyone remembers that the "Popes" were behind sending the Fourth Crusade against the city of Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire, the fact that will be never forgotten in Russia and other Orthodox Christianity countries.-- Victor V V ( talk) 04:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I have deleted irrelevant and inflamatory remarks by an unidentified user from this page. Publius 22:09, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone please tell me how to have a devotional mass said at the Vatican? I went on the official website for the Holy See and there was no mention about this although there is an online offerring for Peter's Pence. What I am looking for is this: my Uncle passed away and we usually go to our local parish when someone dies , make an offering at the office, the secretary then writes the name on a list for masses to be said for the deceased person, and then we get a card to give to the family of the deceased stating that there will be a mass said for the deceased on such date(s) and time(s); I just thought it would be cool to have one said at the Vatican instead of the local parish (even though I personally am Agnostic and don't believe in any of this stuff- but it makes the deceased's loved ones feel better so I feel that is good- so, I do it for them, not for my own beliefs). Is there a website where I can "buy" masses to be said at the Vatican for the deceased? Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.136 ( talk) 16:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The Holy See is the Diocese of Rome. Also, there's confusion between Vatican city and Holy See in the article and infobox. To explain it simply:
1)the Roman Catholic Church is mainly divided into episcopal sees (jurisdictions led by bishops) called dioceses.
2)The Diocese of Rome, the Holy See, has primacy because the Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter. And so all the others dioceses are in communiom with Rome and must accept the fact that the Bishop of Rome is the head of the Church.
3)The holy see has state sovereignity over a piece of land in it: that is Vatican City. There, the Pope is not only the Bishop but the Head of State.
If we separate the Diocese of Rome and the Holy See we just contradict the whole point of Roman catholicism. Barjimoa ( talk) 19:26, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Could you put a template(hatnote) in the article? Manabimasu ( talk) 22:41, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Template inserted in both articles. Lawtheagoraphobic (talk) 22:00, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
In this Code the terms Apostolic See or Holy See mean not only the Roman Pontiff, but also, unless the contrary is clear from the nature of things or from the context, the Secretariat of State, the Council for the public affairs of the Church, and the other Institutes of the Roman Curia.. The Roman Curia is included in the Holy See in the Canon law of the Catholic Church. The Roman Curia is their central government. Also see the article Temporal power of the Holy See. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 23:08, 9 July 2019 (UTC)