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On 29 January 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from History of the Assyrian people to History of the Assyrians. The result of the discussion was moved. |
in the second paragraph of the article it says "historically speaking assyrians originated from abraham's grandson" i dont know if that is correct or not, but i do know that assyrians originated from Noah's son Shem long before abraham ever existed. maybe you guys know something that i dont, but i think that should be mentioned. thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.37.22 ( talk) 23:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Cquan, I noticed you proposed to merge this page. Here are a couple things you might want to note:
1. I created this page yesterday, and
we will be expanding it within the next two weeks.
2. The
Assyrian people page is starting to become flooded, biased, and unorganized.
3. This page,
History of the Assyrian people, will deal strictly with the different periods in their history, with a focus on the people - that includes more of an emphasis on their origins, language, as well as the development of their culture, political issues, and more.
I hope that explains what we wish to do with this page. -- Šarukinu 14:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
To anybody who wishes to contribute to this page:
I would like to expand this article to include numerous sections and topics, including religious history, political history, ancient history (which would incorporate the Akkadian period), and modern history ( AD era). This article is still in a rough state, and is in need of much revision and, like I said before, expansion.
Furthermore, there absolutely cannot be any bias in this article, because too often do we see people spread their political opinions in material about the Assyrian people. So we will have none of that here - I'm going to pay close attention to the choice of words used. This will be an objective article to offer the world unbiased, untainted, and valid information about the history of the Assyrian people, covering both the ancient and modern periods.
Due to the huge disagreement over the Assyrian identity, I feel it maybe a good idea to include a section about the debate with arguments from both sides of the issue, and then let people decide for themselves whether or not to discount the Assyrian identity. What I'm aiming for with this is something similar to the page about the BC/AD vs BCE/CE notation.
Feel free to provide your input, but please steer away from bias - for once let's offer information free of flowery words and biased views.
Šarukinu 22:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This page and the other Assyrian pages are full of historical inaccuracies. Assyria proper did not fall to the Persians but a confederacy of Babylonians and Medes under Cyaxares. It became part of Persia when she conquered the other two empires. It was not a Roman province except for a brief period. Asuristan was a province of the Parthian Empire as well as the Sassanid Empire.
Just as a note, the article on Empire calls the Egyptian state the first empire when they invaded and incorporated another state. It also calls Sargon's Akkadian state an early example of an empire. This should probably be discussed on both articles for consistency and factual accuracy. Cquan ( after the beep...) 01:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This article is about the history of the Assyrian people (the Syriac Christians), it is not about the Assyrian Empire of Antiquity. I will consistently oppose any attempt to make this a content fork of the article about ancient Assyria, or to hijack it by Assyrianist antiquity frenzy. You are genuinely interested in ancient Assyria? Fine! Go work on the Assyria and Neo-Assyrian Empire articles. dab (𒁳) 18:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The title doesn't reflect the content. The title suggests this is the history of the Syriacs (that of the Arameans), this article only brings up the history of the Assyrians. The TriZ ( talk) 23:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
try WP:3O. I am not prepared to try and talk sense into people who have a WP:COI in this. The upshot is that this article addresses the history of the Syriac Christians. If you really like to discuss the history of ancient Assyria, go to Assyria. If you really like to discuss the history of the ancient Aramaeans, go to Aramaeans. I am not "ranting". I am merely pointing you to Wikipedia core policy of WP:NPOV, and especially WP:DUE. You will note that this article still has a "pre-Christian" section, which should concisely summarize early history in WP:SS, just like the "history" article on any other ethnic group. This won't go away: you can keep doing this for another year, or another five years, Wikipedia policy will always come out on top. Your only option is to start respecting the rules, anything else is a waste of time. dab (𒁳) 11:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok, on Wikipedia there is a "History of the ... people" the the ... is filled with every ethnicity in the world. Since we can all agree that Assyrians are an ethnic group, how come there isn't a "History of the Assyrian people" page? Malik Danno ( talk) 19:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
(Dab) try WP:3O - Are you serious? 'I did that and the community did not see it your way. Did you ignore what was written above?
They moved the page back, but you acting as if you own the page, decided to move the article to yet another name. Iraqi ( talk) 07:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
This article was about the history of the Assyrian people from before Christianity to today. If you want to write about Syriac Christianity, seperate the articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.99.34 ( talk) 02:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
-- 24.248.39.186 ( talk) 02:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 06:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Can we have arguments for and against the latest requested move (to move back to History of the Assyrian people)? Without personal attacks and ad hominems, preferably. Personally I'd support the move based on the terminology used in the article and the names of other articles (such as Assyrian people), but I don't pretend to have any in-depth knowledge of this issue.-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
an edit-warring IP talking of "disruption"? I am glad you found the talkpage, but your rant notwithstanding, I have fully justified my edits. They are a matter of {{ offtopic}} and WP:DUE. This isn't the Assyria article, nor is it the Syria (name) article. No content was lost, it is discussed in the pertinent articles. This article has the purpose of dealing with the history of the Syriac Christian population in the Middle East. Yes, it should feature an "Origins" section dealing with a summary of pre-Christian history, this was never under dispute. My involvement here is the attempt to get the hostile Syriac editors to collaborate and respect policy. Yes, this means I am attacked as biased from both sides. Which actually shows I am doing a good job in preventing the constant attempts to introduce propagandizing information to meet an ultra-nationalistic agenda or goals. The continual attempts to discuss ancient Assyria in articles about the Syriacs is precisely that, a nationalist agenda. Look at the Gaul section in the French people article. This is a reasonable section on an ethnic group's pre-history. We can have a similar section on the Syro-Hittite states and the Neo-Assyrian Empire here. Please just stop trying to conflate modern ethnic identity with an actual coverage of ancient history. Assyrianism is a topic of modern identity, notably embraced by just one faction bent on de-emphasizing their Christian heritage. We can summarize ancient history, but we cannot unduly dwell on remote antiquity in order to push the ideology of this faction. They are notable, to be sure, but they belong discussed in a section on the 20th century (post-Christian, not pre-Christian). -- dab (𒁳) 10:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The move is intened to resolve controversy, not to create it. Fact: we have both Assyrianist and Aramaeanist editors here. Fact: policy requires them to leave their bias at the door and collaborate, respecting WP:NPOV. Both Assyrianists and Aramaeanists need to recognize that this is the article discussing the history of their ethnic group. If we allow the Assyrianists to WP:OWN this article, the Aramaeanists have shown the tendency to bugger off and create counter-articles about "ancient Arameans" elsewhere. This needs to stop. This article is neither about the Aramaeans nor about Ancient Assyria, it is about the history of the Syriac Christians. You are perfectly free and edit articles on ancient history,. at the {{ main}} articles linked. -- dab (𒁳) 10:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
WP:CITE. The TriZ ( talk) 15:44, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
This whole article is about Assyrian people and all of the sources are about Assyrians. Listing it under "Syriac History" just does not make any sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.248.39.186 ( talk) 06:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
User:Dbachmann has made a mockery and a complete mess with this whole issue. He continues to move pages here and their.
Before it was Template:Assyrian people just like how all other ethnic templates were, now he has moved it to Template:Assyrian/Syriac infobox. Its funny how he gives the examples of
when he was the one actually that moved all these pages without any discussion. We've had this problem with him before in Achaemenid Assyria - just look at the talk page. He moved the page with no discussion, doesn't make no argument, and the Wiki community voted against him. Its the same story again. Assyrian is the de facto title used for this group in Wikipedia, based on what Wikipedia says the title should be: The most common used term in English. This page is not following par with Assyrian people. Speaking of which dab has made into a further mess by having 10 different names in the first sentence. We have created an article about this issue; Assyrian naming dispute (of which user dab has moved as well). All this naming mess can go their. The naming issue should not screw up every other Assyrian-related article, like this one for example. The naming issue should not spill everywhere else. People, Syriac is a title of all Syriac-speaking churches; that includes 6 million Indians and 3 million Maronites. This article is not about them. You can find Syriac history in Syriac Christianity. Syriac and Assyrian are TWO different things. One is mostly affiliated in English with the Syriac Churches, while the other is an ethnic name. This article is about the ethnic group of Assyrians. Dab of course tried to manipulate this by deleting the entier intro paragraph and only have it cover Christian history. Iraqi ( talk) 06:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Seperate history of Syriac Christians and History of Assyrian people. They have nothing to do with eachother.-- 24.248.39.186 ( talk) 02:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I Semi-agree with the above comment. This article should be either called History of Assyrian People or History of the Assyrian/Syriac people. If the decision is made to return back this webpage to its original title I believe that there should be an expansion in the article of Syriac Christianity to make up for any missing ground. This page prior to being massively changed was clearly created to preserve and teach users about the History of Assyrian People from Ancient times, to Islamic Era, and to the present. My personal opinion is that we return this page back to the way it was before and expand an entire section in Syriac Christianity to make up any ground that has not been covered for those who regard themselves as Syriacs. This seems like the best solution. This is my Humble opinion. Nineveh ( talk) 02:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with "Nineveh" change it back to History of the Assyrian people or History of the Assyrian/Syriac people -- WestAssyrian ( talk) 17:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I hope the new awkward but extremely neutral title resolves this. If you have any academic references establishing these "separate histories", do bring them up in the article. There can always be sub-articles iff their creation is clearly based on academic sources. -- dab (𒁳) 10:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I was just wondering if anyone has any information about the Assyrian involvement in the Civil War. I have heard of accounts where the Assyrians went to Lebanon to fight with the Christian Militias. Does anyone have any sources backing this up? Malik Danno ( talk) 20:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was moved -- Aervanath ( talk) 05:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
History of the Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac people → History of the Assyrian people — This is one of the pages affected by the related discussion about the move of Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac people to Assyrian people which was initially moved by me, but I then undid my move after my being harshly criticized (harshly or not it is up to you to judge it). In any case, this page is also closely related, and its possible move should be discussed in parallel with the previous case. — Yannismarou ( talk) 08:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.there is no consensus for this move. this is a fragile compromise which evolved over more than a year, and cannot be overturned by two (!) support votes. See Talk:Assyrian_people#properly_formatted_opinion_poll_on_article_title. As long as there isn't a solid consensus of bona fide editors in support of the "parent" move, kindly avoid such attempts of moving around other articles without anyone noticing. -- dab (𒁳) 06:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Assyrian autonomy map 2003.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of the Assyrian people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "EI":
ĀSŌRISTĀN, name of the Sasanian province of Babylonia.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
You're right Anomiebot, I'll fix it. ♥ -- Monochrome_ Monitor 01:45, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I agree with previous comments that this article presents an anachronistic and oversimplistic view of Assyrian history. Even the word Assyrian is anachronistic and misleading. Assyrian topics in general on WP can't seem to make up their minds about Assyrians. On the one hand, by the fact that they include Arameans (an ethnic identity which traces its history to Aram) implies that "assyrian" basically means "christian aramaic speaking people in the middle east". Well, to be specific it calls them:
The various ethnic communities of indigenous pre-Arab, Semitic and often Neo-Aramaic-speaking Christian people of Iraq, Syria, Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine and Israel
Um, that's nonsense. Newsflash, most of the middle east spoke Aramaic and Aramaic influence dominated the region until the Arab conquest. Yet, Assyrian topics would have you believe that all of the Aramaic speaking peoples (which I agree are generally indigenous peoples who are not ethnically Arab) came out of Assyria proper and the neo-Assyrian Empire. Also, how could an ethnic group who is indigenous to Ninevah/Assyria also be indigenous in Israel? There are pre-Arab peoples who are traditionally Christian and Aramaic speaking living all over the Middle East, but most are not actually Assyrian by the standard of "native to Assyria". Therefore, the standard "assyria-akkad-neo-assyria" continuity applies to few (if any) of them. So basically, Assyrian is a bullshit term the way we use it, and it foists an identity onto millions of people who don't identify with Assyria at all in favor of the minority identity of self-identified Assyrians. Next point. Okay, if we were to define Assyrians as people with roots in Assyria (which is the only reasonable definition), we still need to distinguish between the land and the people(s). The Assyrian people did not begin with Assur, which was most likely a Sumerian city in its first centuries, rather, the Assyrian nation grew out of worship of Ashur, which the city of assur is named for. Greek history handles the distinction between the land of Greece, the Greek-speaking peoples, and the Greek ethnos quite well. And see the key difference between these two templates?
History of Greece |
---|
Greece portal |
"History of Assyrian people" it is not.
Lastly there is no clear continuity between the ancient Assyrians and contemporary Assyrians, period. Are contemporary Assyrians indigenous to Assyria? Yes, genetic evidence indicates that, and I'm not one of those people who denies that or calls Assyrians Arabs. But being indigenous to Assyria doesn't mean they are related to the ancient Assyrians. They have barely anything Assyrian in their culture, and this can be attributed to neo-Assyrian influence rather than direct Ancient Assyrian descent. Assyrian identity is quite recent, and largely inspired by developments in Assyriology. Compare that to Jews who have maintained a tradition of continuity for their entire existence. I'm not saying the Assyrian people are a recent people, but they are not Akkadians. Now is where I ping people who raised this concern before and others who defended it. @ Dbachmann: @ Pmanderson: @ Benne: @ Kotniski: @ Chaldean: @ Yannismarou: -- Monochrome_ Monitor 03:14, 27 February 2016 (UTC) Or compare it to the Copts. The evidence is scant in comparison. The article on continuity itself basically uses "self-identified assyrians are a related and distinct ethnic group" as its main argument. Okay... so are the Druze. That doesn't mean the Druze are descended from Jethro. There needs to be more evidence than that.-- Monochrome_ Monitor 03:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC) Or the Greeks... or the Han Chinese... -- Monochrome_ Monitor 22:54, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Look at the "history of the assyrians" template, it includes "Arameans". The notion that assyrian language, clothing, religion are related to ancient assyria is bs. The only source for that is nutjobs like Parpola. Food I'm not so sure about. I see your username is "chaldean". Chaldean, while a name foisted on you by the catholic church, is a much older name than assyrian, foisted on you by the anglican church and antiquity frenzying 19th century archaeologists. You are much more likely to be chaldean than Assyrian historically speaking.-- Monochrome_ Monitor 11:53, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Actually, the term Assyrian is ONLY used to describe those people who 1. Speak Eastern Aramaic dialects (which have Akkadian influence), 2. Are from Historic Assyria (Iraq, northeast Syria, southeast Turkey and northwest Iran), and 3. Have been continually designated and described as Assyrians (and derivative names) from ancient times to the present. Therefore it is an accurate term, particularly as; The term is NOT used to describe Christians (Aramaic speaking or not) from the western and central Levant, Jordan, Israel, Palestinian territories, Lebanon, western or south-central Turkey or the Arabian peninsula. These people either speak Arabic, or a tiny minority speaking Western Aramaic The latter groups identify as 'Maronites, Arab Christians, Arameans, Phoenicians, Melkites etc etc. The term also does NOT apply to Aramaic speaking Jews, Mandeans or Mhallami.
The terms Syrian and Syriac are also pretty conclusively proven to etymologically, historically, geographically and ethnically derive from the terms Assyria and Assyrian in any case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.25.101 ( talk) 11:26, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved. Sensible rationale and seeing no opposition ( closed by non-admin page mover) Megan B.... It’s all coming to me till the end of time 19:57, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
History of the Assyrian people → History of the Assyrians I am proposing that this be moved to "History of the Assyrians" for 5 reasons:
A quick comment: Both the scholarly community and Wikipedia itself appear to have taken a pretty firm stance for Assyrian continuity, which should be apparent by how this article is written, but if anyone hypothetically wants to argue that "Assyrians" is POV I'd remind you that the consensus (just look at how related articles are titled) seems pretty clear that we're sticking with that term. "Assyrians" is also no more POV than "Assyrian people". Ichthyovenator ( talk) 01:05, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
This
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On 29 January 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from History of the Assyrian people to History of the Assyrians. The result of the discussion was moved. |
in the second paragraph of the article it says "historically speaking assyrians originated from abraham's grandson" i dont know if that is correct or not, but i do know that assyrians originated from Noah's son Shem long before abraham ever existed. maybe you guys know something that i dont, but i think that should be mentioned. thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.37.22 ( talk) 23:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Cquan, I noticed you proposed to merge this page. Here are a couple things you might want to note:
1. I created this page yesterday, and
we will be expanding it within the next two weeks.
2. The
Assyrian people page is starting to become flooded, biased, and unorganized.
3. This page,
History of the Assyrian people, will deal strictly with the different periods in their history, with a focus on the people - that includes more of an emphasis on their origins, language, as well as the development of their culture, political issues, and more.
I hope that explains what we wish to do with this page. -- Šarukinu 14:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
To anybody who wishes to contribute to this page:
I would like to expand this article to include numerous sections and topics, including religious history, political history, ancient history (which would incorporate the Akkadian period), and modern history ( AD era). This article is still in a rough state, and is in need of much revision and, like I said before, expansion.
Furthermore, there absolutely cannot be any bias in this article, because too often do we see people spread their political opinions in material about the Assyrian people. So we will have none of that here - I'm going to pay close attention to the choice of words used. This will be an objective article to offer the world unbiased, untainted, and valid information about the history of the Assyrian people, covering both the ancient and modern periods.
Due to the huge disagreement over the Assyrian identity, I feel it maybe a good idea to include a section about the debate with arguments from both sides of the issue, and then let people decide for themselves whether or not to discount the Assyrian identity. What I'm aiming for with this is something similar to the page about the BC/AD vs BCE/CE notation.
Feel free to provide your input, but please steer away from bias - for once let's offer information free of flowery words and biased views.
Šarukinu 22:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This page and the other Assyrian pages are full of historical inaccuracies. Assyria proper did not fall to the Persians but a confederacy of Babylonians and Medes under Cyaxares. It became part of Persia when she conquered the other two empires. It was not a Roman province except for a brief period. Asuristan was a province of the Parthian Empire as well as the Sassanid Empire.
Just as a note, the article on Empire calls the Egyptian state the first empire when they invaded and incorporated another state. It also calls Sargon's Akkadian state an early example of an empire. This should probably be discussed on both articles for consistency and factual accuracy. Cquan ( after the beep...) 01:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This article is about the history of the Assyrian people (the Syriac Christians), it is not about the Assyrian Empire of Antiquity. I will consistently oppose any attempt to make this a content fork of the article about ancient Assyria, or to hijack it by Assyrianist antiquity frenzy. You are genuinely interested in ancient Assyria? Fine! Go work on the Assyria and Neo-Assyrian Empire articles. dab (𒁳) 18:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The title doesn't reflect the content. The title suggests this is the history of the Syriacs (that of the Arameans), this article only brings up the history of the Assyrians. The TriZ ( talk) 23:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
try WP:3O. I am not prepared to try and talk sense into people who have a WP:COI in this. The upshot is that this article addresses the history of the Syriac Christians. If you really like to discuss the history of ancient Assyria, go to Assyria. If you really like to discuss the history of the ancient Aramaeans, go to Aramaeans. I am not "ranting". I am merely pointing you to Wikipedia core policy of WP:NPOV, and especially WP:DUE. You will note that this article still has a "pre-Christian" section, which should concisely summarize early history in WP:SS, just like the "history" article on any other ethnic group. This won't go away: you can keep doing this for another year, or another five years, Wikipedia policy will always come out on top. Your only option is to start respecting the rules, anything else is a waste of time. dab (𒁳) 11:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok, on Wikipedia there is a "History of the ... people" the the ... is filled with every ethnicity in the world. Since we can all agree that Assyrians are an ethnic group, how come there isn't a "History of the Assyrian people" page? Malik Danno ( talk) 19:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
(Dab) try WP:3O - Are you serious? 'I did that and the community did not see it your way. Did you ignore what was written above?
They moved the page back, but you acting as if you own the page, decided to move the article to yet another name. Iraqi ( talk) 07:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
This article was about the history of the Assyrian people from before Christianity to today. If you want to write about Syriac Christianity, seperate the articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.99.34 ( talk) 02:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
-- 24.248.39.186 ( talk) 02:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 06:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Can we have arguments for and against the latest requested move (to move back to History of the Assyrian people)? Without personal attacks and ad hominems, preferably. Personally I'd support the move based on the terminology used in the article and the names of other articles (such as Assyrian people), but I don't pretend to have any in-depth knowledge of this issue.-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
an edit-warring IP talking of "disruption"? I am glad you found the talkpage, but your rant notwithstanding, I have fully justified my edits. They are a matter of {{ offtopic}} and WP:DUE. This isn't the Assyria article, nor is it the Syria (name) article. No content was lost, it is discussed in the pertinent articles. This article has the purpose of dealing with the history of the Syriac Christian population in the Middle East. Yes, it should feature an "Origins" section dealing with a summary of pre-Christian history, this was never under dispute. My involvement here is the attempt to get the hostile Syriac editors to collaborate and respect policy. Yes, this means I am attacked as biased from both sides. Which actually shows I am doing a good job in preventing the constant attempts to introduce propagandizing information to meet an ultra-nationalistic agenda or goals. The continual attempts to discuss ancient Assyria in articles about the Syriacs is precisely that, a nationalist agenda. Look at the Gaul section in the French people article. This is a reasonable section on an ethnic group's pre-history. We can have a similar section on the Syro-Hittite states and the Neo-Assyrian Empire here. Please just stop trying to conflate modern ethnic identity with an actual coverage of ancient history. Assyrianism is a topic of modern identity, notably embraced by just one faction bent on de-emphasizing their Christian heritage. We can summarize ancient history, but we cannot unduly dwell on remote antiquity in order to push the ideology of this faction. They are notable, to be sure, but they belong discussed in a section on the 20th century (post-Christian, not pre-Christian). -- dab (𒁳) 10:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The move is intened to resolve controversy, not to create it. Fact: we have both Assyrianist and Aramaeanist editors here. Fact: policy requires them to leave their bias at the door and collaborate, respecting WP:NPOV. Both Assyrianists and Aramaeanists need to recognize that this is the article discussing the history of their ethnic group. If we allow the Assyrianists to WP:OWN this article, the Aramaeanists have shown the tendency to bugger off and create counter-articles about "ancient Arameans" elsewhere. This needs to stop. This article is neither about the Aramaeans nor about Ancient Assyria, it is about the history of the Syriac Christians. You are perfectly free and edit articles on ancient history,. at the {{ main}} articles linked. -- dab (𒁳) 10:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
WP:CITE. The TriZ ( talk) 15:44, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
This whole article is about Assyrian people and all of the sources are about Assyrians. Listing it under "Syriac History" just does not make any sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.248.39.186 ( talk) 06:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
User:Dbachmann has made a mockery and a complete mess with this whole issue. He continues to move pages here and their.
Before it was Template:Assyrian people just like how all other ethnic templates were, now he has moved it to Template:Assyrian/Syriac infobox. Its funny how he gives the examples of
when he was the one actually that moved all these pages without any discussion. We've had this problem with him before in Achaemenid Assyria - just look at the talk page. He moved the page with no discussion, doesn't make no argument, and the Wiki community voted against him. Its the same story again. Assyrian is the de facto title used for this group in Wikipedia, based on what Wikipedia says the title should be: The most common used term in English. This page is not following par with Assyrian people. Speaking of which dab has made into a further mess by having 10 different names in the first sentence. We have created an article about this issue; Assyrian naming dispute (of which user dab has moved as well). All this naming mess can go their. The naming issue should not screw up every other Assyrian-related article, like this one for example. The naming issue should not spill everywhere else. People, Syriac is a title of all Syriac-speaking churches; that includes 6 million Indians and 3 million Maronites. This article is not about them. You can find Syriac history in Syriac Christianity. Syriac and Assyrian are TWO different things. One is mostly affiliated in English with the Syriac Churches, while the other is an ethnic name. This article is about the ethnic group of Assyrians. Dab of course tried to manipulate this by deleting the entier intro paragraph and only have it cover Christian history. Iraqi ( talk) 06:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Seperate history of Syriac Christians and History of Assyrian people. They have nothing to do with eachother.-- 24.248.39.186 ( talk) 02:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I Semi-agree with the above comment. This article should be either called History of Assyrian People or History of the Assyrian/Syriac people. If the decision is made to return back this webpage to its original title I believe that there should be an expansion in the article of Syriac Christianity to make up for any missing ground. This page prior to being massively changed was clearly created to preserve and teach users about the History of Assyrian People from Ancient times, to Islamic Era, and to the present. My personal opinion is that we return this page back to the way it was before and expand an entire section in Syriac Christianity to make up any ground that has not been covered for those who regard themselves as Syriacs. This seems like the best solution. This is my Humble opinion. Nineveh ( talk) 02:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with "Nineveh" change it back to History of the Assyrian people or History of the Assyrian/Syriac people -- WestAssyrian ( talk) 17:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I hope the new awkward but extremely neutral title resolves this. If you have any academic references establishing these "separate histories", do bring them up in the article. There can always be sub-articles iff their creation is clearly based on academic sources. -- dab (𒁳) 10:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I was just wondering if anyone has any information about the Assyrian involvement in the Civil War. I have heard of accounts where the Assyrians went to Lebanon to fight with the Christian Militias. Does anyone have any sources backing this up? Malik Danno ( talk) 20:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was moved -- Aervanath ( talk) 05:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
History of the Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac people → History of the Assyrian people — This is one of the pages affected by the related discussion about the move of Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac people to Assyrian people which was initially moved by me, but I then undid my move after my being harshly criticized (harshly or not it is up to you to judge it). In any case, this page is also closely related, and its possible move should be discussed in parallel with the previous case. — Yannismarou ( talk) 08:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.there is no consensus for this move. this is a fragile compromise which evolved over more than a year, and cannot be overturned by two (!) support votes. See Talk:Assyrian_people#properly_formatted_opinion_poll_on_article_title. As long as there isn't a solid consensus of bona fide editors in support of the "parent" move, kindly avoid such attempts of moving around other articles without anyone noticing. -- dab (𒁳) 06:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of the Assyrian people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "EI":
ĀSŌRISTĀN, name of the Sasanian province of Babylonia.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
You're right Anomiebot, I'll fix it. ♥ -- Monochrome_ Monitor 01:45, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I agree with previous comments that this article presents an anachronistic and oversimplistic view of Assyrian history. Even the word Assyrian is anachronistic and misleading. Assyrian topics in general on WP can't seem to make up their minds about Assyrians. On the one hand, by the fact that they include Arameans (an ethnic identity which traces its history to Aram) implies that "assyrian" basically means "christian aramaic speaking people in the middle east". Well, to be specific it calls them:
The various ethnic communities of indigenous pre-Arab, Semitic and often Neo-Aramaic-speaking Christian people of Iraq, Syria, Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine and Israel
Um, that's nonsense. Newsflash, most of the middle east spoke Aramaic and Aramaic influence dominated the region until the Arab conquest. Yet, Assyrian topics would have you believe that all of the Aramaic speaking peoples (which I agree are generally indigenous peoples who are not ethnically Arab) came out of Assyria proper and the neo-Assyrian Empire. Also, how could an ethnic group who is indigenous to Ninevah/Assyria also be indigenous in Israel? There are pre-Arab peoples who are traditionally Christian and Aramaic speaking living all over the Middle East, but most are not actually Assyrian by the standard of "native to Assyria". Therefore, the standard "assyria-akkad-neo-assyria" continuity applies to few (if any) of them. So basically, Assyrian is a bullshit term the way we use it, and it foists an identity onto millions of people who don't identify with Assyria at all in favor of the minority identity of self-identified Assyrians. Next point. Okay, if we were to define Assyrians as people with roots in Assyria (which is the only reasonable definition), we still need to distinguish between the land and the people(s). The Assyrian people did not begin with Assur, which was most likely a Sumerian city in its first centuries, rather, the Assyrian nation grew out of worship of Ashur, which the city of assur is named for. Greek history handles the distinction between the land of Greece, the Greek-speaking peoples, and the Greek ethnos quite well. And see the key difference between these two templates?
History of Greece |
---|
Greece portal |
"History of Assyrian people" it is not.
Lastly there is no clear continuity between the ancient Assyrians and contemporary Assyrians, period. Are contemporary Assyrians indigenous to Assyria? Yes, genetic evidence indicates that, and I'm not one of those people who denies that or calls Assyrians Arabs. But being indigenous to Assyria doesn't mean they are related to the ancient Assyrians. They have barely anything Assyrian in their culture, and this can be attributed to neo-Assyrian influence rather than direct Ancient Assyrian descent. Assyrian identity is quite recent, and largely inspired by developments in Assyriology. Compare that to Jews who have maintained a tradition of continuity for their entire existence. I'm not saying the Assyrian people are a recent people, but they are not Akkadians. Now is where I ping people who raised this concern before and others who defended it. @ Dbachmann: @ Pmanderson: @ Benne: @ Kotniski: @ Chaldean: @ Yannismarou: -- Monochrome_ Monitor 03:14, 27 February 2016 (UTC) Or compare it to the Copts. The evidence is scant in comparison. The article on continuity itself basically uses "self-identified assyrians are a related and distinct ethnic group" as its main argument. Okay... so are the Druze. That doesn't mean the Druze are descended from Jethro. There needs to be more evidence than that.-- Monochrome_ Monitor 03:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC) Or the Greeks... or the Han Chinese... -- Monochrome_ Monitor 22:54, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Look at the "history of the assyrians" template, it includes "Arameans". The notion that assyrian language, clothing, religion are related to ancient assyria is bs. The only source for that is nutjobs like Parpola. Food I'm not so sure about. I see your username is "chaldean". Chaldean, while a name foisted on you by the catholic church, is a much older name than assyrian, foisted on you by the anglican church and antiquity frenzying 19th century archaeologists. You are much more likely to be chaldean than Assyrian historically speaking.-- Monochrome_ Monitor 11:53, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Actually, the term Assyrian is ONLY used to describe those people who 1. Speak Eastern Aramaic dialects (which have Akkadian influence), 2. Are from Historic Assyria (Iraq, northeast Syria, southeast Turkey and northwest Iran), and 3. Have been continually designated and described as Assyrians (and derivative names) from ancient times to the present. Therefore it is an accurate term, particularly as; The term is NOT used to describe Christians (Aramaic speaking or not) from the western and central Levant, Jordan, Israel, Palestinian territories, Lebanon, western or south-central Turkey or the Arabian peninsula. These people either speak Arabic, or a tiny minority speaking Western Aramaic The latter groups identify as 'Maronites, Arab Christians, Arameans, Phoenicians, Melkites etc etc. The term also does NOT apply to Aramaic speaking Jews, Mandeans or Mhallami.
The terms Syrian and Syriac are also pretty conclusively proven to etymologically, historically, geographically and ethnically derive from the terms Assyria and Assyrian in any case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.25.101 ( talk) 11:26, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved. Sensible rationale and seeing no opposition ( closed by non-admin page mover) Megan B.... It’s all coming to me till the end of time 19:57, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
History of the Assyrian people → History of the Assyrians I am proposing that this be moved to "History of the Assyrians" for 5 reasons:
A quick comment: Both the scholarly community and Wikipedia itself appear to have taken a pretty firm stance for Assyrian continuity, which should be apparent by how this article is written, but if anyone hypothetically wants to argue that "Assyrians" is POV I'd remind you that the consensus (just look at how related articles are titled) seems pretty clear that we're sticking with that term. "Assyrians" is also no more POV than "Assyrian people". Ichthyovenator ( talk) 01:05, 29 January 2022 (UTC)