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"However, Mindaugas was later murdered by his nephew, subsequently resulting in great unrest and a relapse into paganism."
There /must/ be a better way to describe the return to paganism than as a "relapse", which generally implies a return to a state of illness or a regression after an improvement.
Yes we really have doubts that christianity meant progress. Return to paganism would be more neutral language. -- Fenris23 19:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Literacy and connection to larger European political and economic networks was one thing. Fire, sword and destruction of traditional faiths and cultures were another. The price of progress can be very high indeed. --EikwaR
Do we have any firm sources to support the 120000 figure ? On top of that we would have another 100K people imprisoned and sent to gulags o killed. And then the "repatriation" of Poles would add probably another 100K ? Lysy 17:45, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* Yes, in 1941, nearing the middle of deportations, only 17.5 thousand were deported. This does not mean that throughout the period 100,000 could not have been deported. The figure is slightly high, however 17.5 is far too low. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.118.117.134 ( talk) 06:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Very poor article - has to be rewritten or at least reviewed by someone with more knowledge on subject. Many important facts (i.e., rule of Grand Duke Vytautas (Vitold), battle of Grünwald) are ommitted and some dubious statements are presented as facts (i.e. I couldn't find anywhere that Gediminas was "slain").
User:DeirYassin replaced significant parts of text recently calling the former version "Soviet propaganda". Among the most notable changes are deletion of mention of Ponary and other crimes of the Lithuanian collaborators. IMO if we mention the Armia Krajowa reply to the Lithuanian and German terror, then we should mention also its cause. Also, the very fact that there were Lithuanian collaborators taking part in the initial massacre of Jews and Poles is not disputed by historians (at least not that I heard of).
I'm thinking of reverting to the previous version by Lysy, though perhaps I'm wrong and DeirYassin could explain his edits. Halibu tt 19:31, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Why was the word "free" removed from the paragraph about the elections for Central Lithuanian parliament ? Is it disputed that these elections were free ? Lysy 05:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was removed in regards to disputes I mentioned in other articles, that is, redrawing the borders of elections region excluding vast parts of Vilnius region, but including a small additional part to the east. Although this does not makes the election not free, ussually such tactics (in modern days the redrawing of electoral region boundaries is more common however (to separate people of certain opposing groups into several electoral regions), rather than all region in which election would take place, for understandable reasons) makes election results more disputable, and this needs to be explained. Also prefferably the percentages of people of various nations who voted should be said, although this doesnt interferes with freedom that much. However, that is some work and all that is done in Vilnius region and Central Lithuania articles anyways, so for now it might stay like this, the fact is that there were elections, while it isn't said if they were free or not as that is subjective. DeirYassin 12:07, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why WW2 is defined here by the period 1940-1945 and not 1939-1945. Is it on purpose ? Lysy 05:48, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes it was on purpose, because the 1939 is rathe covered in collapse of state part of independent interwar Lithuania as it was still independent then, and WW2 would be about WW2 in the Lithuanian soil, which started only in 1940, as well as occupations of Lithuania (first Soviet and nazi German). Although of course if it would be decided so, this could be changed to 1939-1945 or the chapter name could be changed to "Occupations during World War 2" or "World War 2 in Lithuania". DeirYassin 08:38, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Piotrus, do you know anything about Lithuania and Poland..?as i can see - no! It was almoast war betwean Lithuania and Poland and you want to say, they could fight together? And you, Wojsy1, i sugest you to read molotov-ribentrop pact, maybe then you will understand why... comment from Poškus (01:14, 11 July 2006 85.206.130.86)
Is it really disputed that the massacre of Glinciszki and other similar were performed by Lithuanias ? What is the alternative version then ? Lysy 06:02, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As far as I undertsand, it is rather the possible involvement of Lithuanians in all these things what is disputed, and werether they (those who did that) were ordinary people or nazis, hired by Germany, or, as Russians tries to claim, partisans fighting for independence, etc. Also what numbers of Lithuanians took part in all this, and werether it was organised by some Lithuanians or by others, etc. So you could edit the mentioned parts accordingly if you feel currently it is not NPOV DeirYassin 11:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Armija krajova didnt kill only policemens or something, they killed anybody, who showed them theyr Lithuanian passport, if you dont beleave(polishes), i could find you some documents and many witness. Where did you find such a nonsence about Lithuanian reaction by killing theyr peasants(maybe they had krajova inicials only) Also, there was Lithuanian partizans(in Lithuania territory) and so callded "krajova", which act in Belarus, Lithuania and poland. Could you find me such document, proving that Lithuania had police officers near Glinski? If i hadnt proves, i wont say that. Also i can prove, krajov's partizans act in all Vilnius region and Alytus region. Im Lithuanian. Deir Yasin, if you dont see rasizm from polishes, than you are blind, i could call it unproved nonsences...Lysy, nazis?i beleave you are comunist than!lithuanian partizans fighted only soviets.Say any German name in Lithuanian partizans lists?!NONE.And there Was only 20(moast 40)Lithuanians in German army,how much krajov's leaders fighted in germans side during war..? Poškus (01:38, 11 July 2006 User:85.206.130.86)
Dear DeirYassin, the state is indeed most commonly known in Poland as Rzeczpospolita, with the difference that it's not Rzeczpospolita Polska, but Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów (Republic of Both Nations, sometimes translated as Commonwealth of Both Nations). Halibu tt 17:08, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
"In 1316, Gediminas, with the aid of colonists from Germany, began the restoration of the land." That is a strange statement indeed. Why there was restoration needed? According to some sources Gediminas invited Germans to settle in the country, but I wonder if any of them came as I never heard of any sources telling about successful german colonisation in Lithuania. Dirgela 19:28, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
"Poniatovskis" looks very funny in the English article ;) And btw. who has spoiled the whole article into this wood of empty headings? Dirgela 16:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Killing of 5,000 Jews in Kovno by Lithuanian nationalists in June 1941 ? ...hm... Xxxyyyj 19:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I reverted these edits. It seemed like strong POV language without any discussion here. -- Bookandcoffee (Leave msg.) 17:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I found that the history article sort of glossed over the times during Lithuania's fight for independence where the government was less than resolute. Lets not forget that after oil and gas shipments were suspended by the Soviets, Lithuanians voluntarily suspended their independence. While it's completely understandable and probably the best thing that they could have done in hindsight, it clashes with the article's 'Give me liberty or give me death' style heroism of Lithuanian politicians. I'll change the article shortly.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.98.99.155 ( talk • contribs) .
Would anyone like to discuss my edits before they accuse me of bias and revert my changes? Lysy? I'll reinsert my changes and ask for constructive criticism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.98.99.154 ( talk • contribs) .
'Rebel' only carries a negative connotation if you give it one. Speaking from personal experience and my time in the United States, many people from the American South consider it a compliment and wear their cultural identity as rebels with pride. Again, in my country the 'founding fathers' were all rebels and have large statues built in their honor. If you have a problem with it though, I'm willing to work with you. Could you suggest something more descriptive than 'Lithuanians' and less perjorative than 'rebels'?
The legality of the Soviet 'occupation' (another loaded word) of Lithuania is certainly a matter of dispute. I'm pretty sure that I'm never going to convince you that it was completely legal and you're certainly not going to convince me that it was illegal, so maybe we could agree to include arguments for both sides in this or another article linked to this.
Why do you think that I'm trying to 'hide' this information? Didn't I say in my last post that the only reason I deleted it was because I didn't think that including the exact number was important? Of course 10 or 1000 or 100,000 are very different numbers and should be differentiated, but was there anyone who was going to mistakenly assume that 1000 or 100,000 were killed over a riot in a television station? Like I said above, if you want it included that's fine with me but it has to be included in a context that recognizes that the Soviet government and soldiers were the recognized de facto civil authority and that by occupying a TV station those people killed were knowingly breaking the laws of the de facto recognized civil authority. Setting them up like martyrs (I've even visited the Hill of Crosses) ignores the point of view of many stakeholders active in the SSR at the time.
I'd like to quote respectable sources (with regard to the disputed referendum on independence), but I doubt that you would consider the Soviet Ministry of Foreign Affairs respectable. I'm not sure what you don't believe about Gorbachev's role in the coup or his efforts at detente, but there are a lot of recently declassified documents at the State Dept.'s FOIA electronic reading room that have information on that.
Finally, can we at least agree to put in the section on how Lithuania suspended their independence after Moscow cut off their oil and gas shipments? It's got particular relevance to the recent disagreement between the Ukraine and Russia and it'd be nice to have that working while interest in the topic is so high.
In response to the copyedit tag, I'm going to work my way through this (very good) article trying to improve the language. I'm not an expert on the subject though, so if I mess anything up, please let me know or correct it. Kcordina 13:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Finished! I hope it is all OK. Kcordina 13:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I responded to some <!-type comments that someone left in the article (I couldn't find who did it or when in the history) but 213.190.42.88 moved part of my response here. I'll just move the whole thing here:
There were 2 distinct partisan movements in Lithuania during WW2 era. See Soviet_partisans#Partisans_in_the_Baltic_States for a bit of info on "pro-Soviet" partisans and Forest Brothers for info on the "anti-Soviet" partisan movement (rather large, engaged in guerilla warfare against Red Army/NKVD until approx. 1952). These are both quite well documented, not by the Soviets but among Jewish and Lithuanians respectively. It is all still somewhat murky at times though, naturally. The anti-Soviet partisan movement possibly did contain Nazi elements, and was partly formed from approximately half of the "disbanded" German-created Lithuanian "Defence Force" that was created to combat Soviet partisans. The Nazi authorities arrested the senior staff of this ill-equipped but 20,000-strong force in May 1944 within months of its creation when they saw that it was becoming a nationalist threat. It grew into a broader movement though, eventually backed significantly by Western secret intelligence services. heqs 10:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is ok to move whole discussion here I believe. As for the Soviet Partisans article, the only two sentences about Lithuania are: "In Lithuania, the partisans had a separate command from November 1942, under Antanas Sniečkus. In the Vilnius Ghetto, a resistance organisation called FPO-Fareinikte Partisaner Organizatzie was established by Communist and Zionist partisans - their first leaders were Yitzhak Witenberg, a member of the Communist Party, and the writer Abba Kovner.". Two sentences is not enough to link to article as "see also", there are probably two sentences about events related to the history of Lithuania in many articles, so there would be far too many links. Soviet partisans are already mentioned in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.190.42.88 ( talk • contribs) 9:30, 1 May 2006.
Lithuanians should carefully report about Memelland (or Klaipeda region), as the election results there clearly showed that also many Lithuanians did not want to be ruled by the Lithuanian state. -- Matthead 01:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. I wanted to add a separate mini-chapter on the resettlement of Poles from what is now Lithuania during and immediately after the WWII, but I'd like to gather some comments first. I've seen too many Lithuania-related revert wars not to know that it might be a waste of time in case someone wanted to delete such a chapter as soon as I add it (sad but true).
The reason why I wanted to add it here is that it seems that Poles constituted a huge part of the population of what is now Lithuania and what Lithuanians consider to be "their" area in 1930's and 1940's. In addition to roughly 12,000 people sent to Siberia from Wilno and the surrounding area in 1940 and 1941 [4], there were 40 to 90,000 people (Poles in huge part) resettled from what is now Lithuania by the Germans and Lithuanian collaborators during the war [5]. Finally, there were also roughly 200,000 people who were allowed to leave the Soviet paradise in 1945 and 1946 (less than half of those who registered for depatriation) [6] and perhaps another 100,000 allowed to leave in 1950's. In addition to that, there is also a question of Lithuanization of roughly 120,000 people in Lithuania proper in 1920s and 1930s. Altogether, the group comprised some 20 to 25% of what was the population of Lithuania in 1939. That's why I think it merits some mention here. // Halibu tt 12:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd have no objections on mentionign Polish emigration (my family members used this opportunity, although they do still speak Lithuanian ir Wroclaw), in case someone would add a separate chapter to Poland History about closing schools teaching in other languages - Lithuanian, Belarussian, Ukrainian - all around Poland for the whole 20th century. The veryvlatest example is confiscation of Lithuanian School (built by Lithuanian community money) in Punsk for Polish customs sake. Mr. Halibutt sems to be eager to do this. Lokyz 02:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, please note that the section in the PL article is about minorities in general. No Ukrainian, Belarusian or Lithuanoan POV pusher made and attempt to create a chapter on situation of their compatriots and paste it to the History of PL article. You are requested the same courtesy. Write an article on the issue as detailed as you like. If you feel like the subject is underrepresented here, integrate some non-excessive info to the chronological flow of events and not a separate chapter about the Poles in Lithuania.
Don't you see that you are getting the same reaction whether you attempt to polonize the Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian or Lithuanian topics? By Polonization I don't mean giving the Polish issue the reasonable amount of space in non-Polish articles but your permanent habit of giving the unwarranted saliency to a Polish issue to every subject as if the entire world history turns around Poland.
In no way anyone would oppose to your writing a separate article on, say, defence of every shed by Poles from the foreign aggressors or about resettlement of or resentment by Poles. However, the amount of space devoted to the Polish issues in the non-Polish articles should be reasonable. I have no hope that you will ever get it. -- Irpen 22:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, I've seen enough of your non-pushy habbit, you know. Do you remember by any chance who wrote a whole chapter about PL for Soviet partisan? More examples?
I never said non-mention of Poles is fine. Reread what I said above: "Whatever of those events are important enough to be relevant for such a broad topic article needs to be integrated into one of the chronological chapters". or " If you feel like the subject is underrepresented here, integrate some non-excessive info to the chronological flow of events ". Where do you get my preference towards nonmention of Poles from that? -- Irpen 05:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As for the sources, the problem might be lack of Lithuanian research of the subject. I'm sure this will change but I'm afraid for now most of the sources are Polish, and obviously some of them are less fair than the others, so they need to be approached with caution (but not dismissed on the spot). A piece of research that I have at hand is "Polacy w Litewskiej SSR 1944-1989" by Aleksander Srebrakowski. The author, among the other things, discusses the "repatriation" figures given by J.Czerniakiewicz in his "Repatriacja ludności polskiej z ZSRR 1944-1948. According to Czerniakiewicz there were total 197,156 people evacuated from the territory of Lithuanian Soviet Republic to Poland in 1945-1947. 177,814 of these were Polish, 16,958 were Jewish and 2,328 other nationalities. Then there was a second wave of population transfer to Poland in 1955-1959 which seems to be more difficult to assess in numbers. -- Lysy talk 16:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Considering the current poor state of the article, I would suggest addressing the issue in a separate article and linking it here from a sentence; otherwise any even reasonably good section will be longer then the entire entry on PLC times or other important periods. That said, I am again disappointed by the behaviour of some users, who seem to make a hobby of personal attacks (or at least incivility) against such valuable editors as Halibutt. Please, read what you write, and remember that your edits are up there for eternity.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
On separate article. I don't think it should be called "Resettlement of Poles from Lithuania" but rather "Resettlement of Poles from Soviet Union". Further more, correct me if I'm wrong, there was some sort of agreement between Poland and Soviet Union on population exchange and some Lithuanians, Ukranians and Bielorussians were resettled from Poland to SU. So both processes should be mentioned (not just resettlement of Poles) in the article and it is name. Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 08:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. if you please be so kind, and point to my words, in which i did oppose your idea, I'd more than happy.
Let me add a few cents to this discussion. First, Dude, 'but, cool off and restart. The circle you are both talking is in much limited only to your two circular logic and whining over a few rare past greviances. You are both guilty here: Dude, you should have not removed the reference (per WP:RS), 'but, you are sometimes not very mindful for WP:CIV. So you both should feel scolded by me, and now behave :) Lokyz, 'but. I am really happy to see the discussion raising to much better levels. As I said before, Google Print is just a database, it is no worse and no better then any other. Citing sources is good, and because of GP friendliness it is easier to verify a source from it then from, let's say, JSTOR database (per WP:V). Of course, there are better books and worse books, but arguments against a source should be presented one by one, at talk, and directed against a specific source, not against a database. Second, Halibutt, I think the best thing to do is to write the article (or section) and add references to it, then we can discuss it in more detail. Third, I'd like to draw comparison between the expulsion of Poles from the (Soviet) Lithuania and Germans from Poland: in both cases the local authorities, while generally supportive, were controlled by the Soviets, and it is reasonable to say that if not for the Soviet's masterplan much fewer attrocities would have been comitted. The degree to which the respective local authorities were autonomous and helped is certainly worth describing, but please, stick to sources, preferably English and academic.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I accidentally found out that the article uses verbatim paragraphs long text from external site, this US DoS page. While not a copyvio, since the text is probably PD, it is perhaps not a very good style. I found two paragraphs exactly dupicated. Perhaps, there is more. Someone interested, please overhaul this. It is too important an article and we have to show that we can do it better than copying material from elsewhere. Whoever has time and interest, please consider this suggestion. -- Irpen 00:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the article lacks the explanation of why/how the territory of Lithuania changed so significantly at the turn of 19th/20th century. -- Lysy talk 05:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
"...ultimately the Germans annexed Lithuania."
The population figure for Vilnius after partition is unbelievable. with 250,000 citizens it would be as large as Vienna, and twice bigger than Warsaw (which was certainly the largest city of Commonwealth before partitioning. I guess there's one "0" too much in this figure. 62.179.74.97 12:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there another article detailing what happened in Lithuania under Soviet rule? Surely it is worth going into in some detail as it spans 50 years of the country's development despite as part of another state. The Lithuanian SSR article is not exactly in-depth coverage of a major part of Lithuania's modern history. Lstanley1979 ( talk) 18:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
For quite a time ,a single registered contributor is trying to remove a particular picture [8] [9] [10] [11] Favorite rationale WP:UNDUE. Historic picture represents significant events in Lithuania’s history, namely result or Armia Krajowa criminal actions, which is responsible in total for thousands of Lithuanian people deaths, (like Dubingiai massacre). Actions of Armia Krajowa covered in various Lithuanian academic publications like the newest one (in which I am aware) Lithuanian Historical Studies, 2006; etc. Therefore AK actions in important aspect of Lithuania’s history and this why specific image meets necessary criteria required by WP. Looking deeper ,If we going to use WP:UNDUE as an “argument” in similar cases, almost all pictures of The Holocaust article should be also removed, as they, to certain type contributors, may look like not neutral. In other hand in current article we have various pictures including alleged meeting in Vilnius for “welcoming” occupying Red Army. Of course if any contributor has accesses to pictures there Lithuanians greeting AK with flowers, please by my quest and add it. M.K. ( talk) 13:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why this well referenced fact is getting removed. Battle of Warsaw (1920) saved Lithuanian from Soviet occupation in 1920 (as clearly noted by several referenced historians) and hence is a crucial event that shaped interwar Lithuanian history. The fact surely deserves to be mentioned? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The cruel Poles demanded normalization and poor Lithuania wasn't able to wage a war. A real tragedy... Xx236 ( talk) 15:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I tried to improve this History of Lithuania article. Some periods are still barely covered and I hope to be able to do some more work here. Orczar ( talk) 13:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
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A total fantasy, depicting "ethnic Baltic pagans" (allegedly solely carrying the name of Litwins (Lithuanians) - although never proved so) "brave warriors", "conquering" the neighbouring despised "Ruthenians"; and not regarding Belarusians as Litwins, although they carried that name. What can I say?... It is a total erotic fantasy of modern Lietuviai (so-called "Lithuanians") and Vatican fiction writers.
Few remarks: "St. Nicholas in Vilnius, the oldest church in Lithuania, built before 1387". It was well known not long ago, that this church dates back to approximately 1440, which had been the established dating up to recently. But "someone" needed to have an older catholic church in Vilna (older than orthodox churches), to depict Lietuviai (Lithuanians) as "traditional catholics". So what has been done? The church has been redated one hundred years earlier. Yes, there are mentions of it ca. 1387, but the early statements say that it was wooden, and the brick building was constructed much later, perhaps ca. 1440, as the previos investigations showed. Moreover, it is well known, that this church was a church of German merchants, in their traditional trading post. What has it to do with "traditional (??) Lithuanian catholicism in the 14th century"?? One needs to be a lunatic, to make the German merchant church in the foreign town block a symbol of "Lithuanian catholicism" in the 14th century, considering Lithuania was in the state of constant war with all catholic states up to 1387, and with the German Order up to 1410.
And what regarding "the oldest churches"? I wonder if the author of this statement has ever seen this cathedral church. It was founded by grand duke Olgierd in 1346, and from 1415 it was the seat of Lithuanian Metropolitan. Or this one? It dates back to 1331. Or this one, founded in 1340? Aren't they not "built before 1387" and not older than your German St. Nicholas being wooden before 1387 and existing in brick in 1440, in the trading post of foreign merchants?... Or you are just counting Catholic churches? You seem to be not very happy with Vilna, and in general, Lithuanian history. So what is the purpose of all these tricks? Just to turn a blind eye on the cathedral of 1346, and a church built in 1331 (by the way, founded by grand duke's wife) - to make your German merchant church, being wooden in the 14th century, "the oldest one in Lithuania". Still feel pleased with yourself? All these activities are just destruction of real Lithuanian history, and an ethnocide against Belarusians, and in general Slavonic people, who were called Litwins in GDL, and ruled it with their language, their administrative system and their culture. You should amend the lies in the article, otherwise you should be ashamed.
Remark No.2: the map "Lithuania in 1250". The borders of Lithuania here have totally nothing to do with reality. By 1250 GDL embraced Polack, Minsk, Mozyr, Pinsk and all Belarus, as all sources and all researchers admit, but this is not reflected in the map. And at least a part of this Slavonic population were also Litwins, as the papal document of 1257 states: "confinio Litwinorum" (the border of Poles on Lithuanians) lied between Lukow and Brest (Preussisches Urkundenbuch, Bd. I, H. 2, No. 4). If you don't believe me, look up Roger Bacon's Opus Majus of 1268: Bacon's "Lithuania" is "a large country equal to Germany (Allemania)" which borders on Estonia (i.d. comprises either Latygola or Pskov lands) and on Poland (n.b. not Mazovia, which had been an independent state up to 1526, but Poland - i.e. Bacon's "Lithuania" embraced Brest lands). So, that's what Bacon, the contemporary of 1250, said. He seems to be the last British ever telling truth on Lithuanian history...
I feel that commenting on the errors and outright lies in the articles on medieval Lithuanian history in English medium is senseless, because those seem to be totally consisting of lies or at least striving to do so, by total elimination of Slavonic language, culture and religion from Lithuanian history (although it was the only thing that really did compose its real history)... Rasool-3 ( talk) 06:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I've incorporated the many valuable insights from Timothy Snyder's book. Orczar ( talk) 14:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if scholars have produced a map of Lithuanian-speaking areas at the time of the smallest geographical distribution of spoken Lithuanian dialects, may be mid-19th century or something like that. It would be instructive to see what the starting point of the national revival was. Orczar ( talk) 16:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Lithuanian territorial issues 1939–40 needs key or at least an explanation, in the caption, of the colors. Sca ( talk) 15:28, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
...with its Lithuanian majority.
From Klaipėda region:
Population | German | Memelländisch | Lithuanian | other | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
141,645 | 41.9% | 27.1% | 26.6% | 4.4% |
Therefore, above clause has been changed to ...with its large Lithuanian minority, and the exaggerated, POV map "Lithuanian-speaking areas in the 16th century" (which cites no sources) deleted. Sca ( talk) 22:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
I think we should add one because people could see info about that period easier in the infobox. There is no problem if it is the same republic as the current one! For example, take a look at the Afghanistan 1996-2001 page! It's the same emirate as the current one, and there it not seems to be a problem! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.25.122.234 ( talk) 13:12, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
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"However, Mindaugas was later murdered by his nephew, subsequently resulting in great unrest and a relapse into paganism."
There /must/ be a better way to describe the return to paganism than as a "relapse", which generally implies a return to a state of illness or a regression after an improvement.
Yes we really have doubts that christianity meant progress. Return to paganism would be more neutral language. -- Fenris23 19:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Literacy and connection to larger European political and economic networks was one thing. Fire, sword and destruction of traditional faiths and cultures were another. The price of progress can be very high indeed. --EikwaR
Do we have any firm sources to support the 120000 figure ? On top of that we would have another 100K people imprisoned and sent to gulags o killed. And then the "repatriation" of Poles would add probably another 100K ? Lysy 17:45, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* Yes, in 1941, nearing the middle of deportations, only 17.5 thousand were deported. This does not mean that throughout the period 100,000 could not have been deported. The figure is slightly high, however 17.5 is far too low. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.118.117.134 ( talk) 06:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Very poor article - has to be rewritten or at least reviewed by someone with more knowledge on subject. Many important facts (i.e., rule of Grand Duke Vytautas (Vitold), battle of Grünwald) are ommitted and some dubious statements are presented as facts (i.e. I couldn't find anywhere that Gediminas was "slain").
User:DeirYassin replaced significant parts of text recently calling the former version "Soviet propaganda". Among the most notable changes are deletion of mention of Ponary and other crimes of the Lithuanian collaborators. IMO if we mention the Armia Krajowa reply to the Lithuanian and German terror, then we should mention also its cause. Also, the very fact that there were Lithuanian collaborators taking part in the initial massacre of Jews and Poles is not disputed by historians (at least not that I heard of).
I'm thinking of reverting to the previous version by Lysy, though perhaps I'm wrong and DeirYassin could explain his edits. Halibu tt 19:31, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Why was the word "free" removed from the paragraph about the elections for Central Lithuanian parliament ? Is it disputed that these elections were free ? Lysy 05:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was removed in regards to disputes I mentioned in other articles, that is, redrawing the borders of elections region excluding vast parts of Vilnius region, but including a small additional part to the east. Although this does not makes the election not free, ussually such tactics (in modern days the redrawing of electoral region boundaries is more common however (to separate people of certain opposing groups into several electoral regions), rather than all region in which election would take place, for understandable reasons) makes election results more disputable, and this needs to be explained. Also prefferably the percentages of people of various nations who voted should be said, although this doesnt interferes with freedom that much. However, that is some work and all that is done in Vilnius region and Central Lithuania articles anyways, so for now it might stay like this, the fact is that there were elections, while it isn't said if they were free or not as that is subjective. DeirYassin 12:07, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why WW2 is defined here by the period 1940-1945 and not 1939-1945. Is it on purpose ? Lysy 05:48, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes it was on purpose, because the 1939 is rathe covered in collapse of state part of independent interwar Lithuania as it was still independent then, and WW2 would be about WW2 in the Lithuanian soil, which started only in 1940, as well as occupations of Lithuania (first Soviet and nazi German). Although of course if it would be decided so, this could be changed to 1939-1945 or the chapter name could be changed to "Occupations during World War 2" or "World War 2 in Lithuania". DeirYassin 08:38, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Piotrus, do you know anything about Lithuania and Poland..?as i can see - no! It was almoast war betwean Lithuania and Poland and you want to say, they could fight together? And you, Wojsy1, i sugest you to read molotov-ribentrop pact, maybe then you will understand why... comment from Poškus (01:14, 11 July 2006 85.206.130.86)
Is it really disputed that the massacre of Glinciszki and other similar were performed by Lithuanias ? What is the alternative version then ? Lysy 06:02, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As far as I undertsand, it is rather the possible involvement of Lithuanians in all these things what is disputed, and werether they (those who did that) were ordinary people or nazis, hired by Germany, or, as Russians tries to claim, partisans fighting for independence, etc. Also what numbers of Lithuanians took part in all this, and werether it was organised by some Lithuanians or by others, etc. So you could edit the mentioned parts accordingly if you feel currently it is not NPOV DeirYassin 11:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Armija krajova didnt kill only policemens or something, they killed anybody, who showed them theyr Lithuanian passport, if you dont beleave(polishes), i could find you some documents and many witness. Where did you find such a nonsence about Lithuanian reaction by killing theyr peasants(maybe they had krajova inicials only) Also, there was Lithuanian partizans(in Lithuania territory) and so callded "krajova", which act in Belarus, Lithuania and poland. Could you find me such document, proving that Lithuania had police officers near Glinski? If i hadnt proves, i wont say that. Also i can prove, krajov's partizans act in all Vilnius region and Alytus region. Im Lithuanian. Deir Yasin, if you dont see rasizm from polishes, than you are blind, i could call it unproved nonsences...Lysy, nazis?i beleave you are comunist than!lithuanian partizans fighted only soviets.Say any German name in Lithuanian partizans lists?!NONE.And there Was only 20(moast 40)Lithuanians in German army,how much krajov's leaders fighted in germans side during war..? Poškus (01:38, 11 July 2006 User:85.206.130.86)
Dear DeirYassin, the state is indeed most commonly known in Poland as Rzeczpospolita, with the difference that it's not Rzeczpospolita Polska, but Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów (Republic of Both Nations, sometimes translated as Commonwealth of Both Nations). Halibu tt 17:08, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
"In 1316, Gediminas, with the aid of colonists from Germany, began the restoration of the land." That is a strange statement indeed. Why there was restoration needed? According to some sources Gediminas invited Germans to settle in the country, but I wonder if any of them came as I never heard of any sources telling about successful german colonisation in Lithuania. Dirgela 19:28, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
"Poniatovskis" looks very funny in the English article ;) And btw. who has spoiled the whole article into this wood of empty headings? Dirgela 16:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Killing of 5,000 Jews in Kovno by Lithuanian nationalists in June 1941 ? ...hm... Xxxyyyj 19:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I reverted these edits. It seemed like strong POV language without any discussion here. -- Bookandcoffee (Leave msg.) 17:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I found that the history article sort of glossed over the times during Lithuania's fight for independence where the government was less than resolute. Lets not forget that after oil and gas shipments were suspended by the Soviets, Lithuanians voluntarily suspended their independence. While it's completely understandable and probably the best thing that they could have done in hindsight, it clashes with the article's 'Give me liberty or give me death' style heroism of Lithuanian politicians. I'll change the article shortly.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.98.99.155 ( talk • contribs) .
Would anyone like to discuss my edits before they accuse me of bias and revert my changes? Lysy? I'll reinsert my changes and ask for constructive criticism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.98.99.154 ( talk • contribs) .
'Rebel' only carries a negative connotation if you give it one. Speaking from personal experience and my time in the United States, many people from the American South consider it a compliment and wear their cultural identity as rebels with pride. Again, in my country the 'founding fathers' were all rebels and have large statues built in their honor. If you have a problem with it though, I'm willing to work with you. Could you suggest something more descriptive than 'Lithuanians' and less perjorative than 'rebels'?
The legality of the Soviet 'occupation' (another loaded word) of Lithuania is certainly a matter of dispute. I'm pretty sure that I'm never going to convince you that it was completely legal and you're certainly not going to convince me that it was illegal, so maybe we could agree to include arguments for both sides in this or another article linked to this.
Why do you think that I'm trying to 'hide' this information? Didn't I say in my last post that the only reason I deleted it was because I didn't think that including the exact number was important? Of course 10 or 1000 or 100,000 are very different numbers and should be differentiated, but was there anyone who was going to mistakenly assume that 1000 or 100,000 were killed over a riot in a television station? Like I said above, if you want it included that's fine with me but it has to be included in a context that recognizes that the Soviet government and soldiers were the recognized de facto civil authority and that by occupying a TV station those people killed were knowingly breaking the laws of the de facto recognized civil authority. Setting them up like martyrs (I've even visited the Hill of Crosses) ignores the point of view of many stakeholders active in the SSR at the time.
I'd like to quote respectable sources (with regard to the disputed referendum on independence), but I doubt that you would consider the Soviet Ministry of Foreign Affairs respectable. I'm not sure what you don't believe about Gorbachev's role in the coup or his efforts at detente, but there are a lot of recently declassified documents at the State Dept.'s FOIA electronic reading room that have information on that.
Finally, can we at least agree to put in the section on how Lithuania suspended their independence after Moscow cut off their oil and gas shipments? It's got particular relevance to the recent disagreement between the Ukraine and Russia and it'd be nice to have that working while interest in the topic is so high.
In response to the copyedit tag, I'm going to work my way through this (very good) article trying to improve the language. I'm not an expert on the subject though, so if I mess anything up, please let me know or correct it. Kcordina 13:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Finished! I hope it is all OK. Kcordina 13:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I responded to some <!-type comments that someone left in the article (I couldn't find who did it or when in the history) but 213.190.42.88 moved part of my response here. I'll just move the whole thing here:
There were 2 distinct partisan movements in Lithuania during WW2 era. See Soviet_partisans#Partisans_in_the_Baltic_States for a bit of info on "pro-Soviet" partisans and Forest Brothers for info on the "anti-Soviet" partisan movement (rather large, engaged in guerilla warfare against Red Army/NKVD until approx. 1952). These are both quite well documented, not by the Soviets but among Jewish and Lithuanians respectively. It is all still somewhat murky at times though, naturally. The anti-Soviet partisan movement possibly did contain Nazi elements, and was partly formed from approximately half of the "disbanded" German-created Lithuanian "Defence Force" that was created to combat Soviet partisans. The Nazi authorities arrested the senior staff of this ill-equipped but 20,000-strong force in May 1944 within months of its creation when they saw that it was becoming a nationalist threat. It grew into a broader movement though, eventually backed significantly by Western secret intelligence services. heqs 10:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is ok to move whole discussion here I believe. As for the Soviet Partisans article, the only two sentences about Lithuania are: "In Lithuania, the partisans had a separate command from November 1942, under Antanas Sniečkus. In the Vilnius Ghetto, a resistance organisation called FPO-Fareinikte Partisaner Organizatzie was established by Communist and Zionist partisans - their first leaders were Yitzhak Witenberg, a member of the Communist Party, and the writer Abba Kovner.". Two sentences is not enough to link to article as "see also", there are probably two sentences about events related to the history of Lithuania in many articles, so there would be far too many links. Soviet partisans are already mentioned in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.190.42.88 ( talk • contribs) 9:30, 1 May 2006.
Lithuanians should carefully report about Memelland (or Klaipeda region), as the election results there clearly showed that also many Lithuanians did not want to be ruled by the Lithuanian state. -- Matthead 01:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. I wanted to add a separate mini-chapter on the resettlement of Poles from what is now Lithuania during and immediately after the WWII, but I'd like to gather some comments first. I've seen too many Lithuania-related revert wars not to know that it might be a waste of time in case someone wanted to delete such a chapter as soon as I add it (sad but true).
The reason why I wanted to add it here is that it seems that Poles constituted a huge part of the population of what is now Lithuania and what Lithuanians consider to be "their" area in 1930's and 1940's. In addition to roughly 12,000 people sent to Siberia from Wilno and the surrounding area in 1940 and 1941 [4], there were 40 to 90,000 people (Poles in huge part) resettled from what is now Lithuania by the Germans and Lithuanian collaborators during the war [5]. Finally, there were also roughly 200,000 people who were allowed to leave the Soviet paradise in 1945 and 1946 (less than half of those who registered for depatriation) [6] and perhaps another 100,000 allowed to leave in 1950's. In addition to that, there is also a question of Lithuanization of roughly 120,000 people in Lithuania proper in 1920s and 1930s. Altogether, the group comprised some 20 to 25% of what was the population of Lithuania in 1939. That's why I think it merits some mention here. // Halibu tt 12:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd have no objections on mentionign Polish emigration (my family members used this opportunity, although they do still speak Lithuanian ir Wroclaw), in case someone would add a separate chapter to Poland History about closing schools teaching in other languages - Lithuanian, Belarussian, Ukrainian - all around Poland for the whole 20th century. The veryvlatest example is confiscation of Lithuanian School (built by Lithuanian community money) in Punsk for Polish customs sake. Mr. Halibutt sems to be eager to do this. Lokyz 02:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, please note that the section in the PL article is about minorities in general. No Ukrainian, Belarusian or Lithuanoan POV pusher made and attempt to create a chapter on situation of their compatriots and paste it to the History of PL article. You are requested the same courtesy. Write an article on the issue as detailed as you like. If you feel like the subject is underrepresented here, integrate some non-excessive info to the chronological flow of events and not a separate chapter about the Poles in Lithuania.
Don't you see that you are getting the same reaction whether you attempt to polonize the Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian or Lithuanian topics? By Polonization I don't mean giving the Polish issue the reasonable amount of space in non-Polish articles but your permanent habit of giving the unwarranted saliency to a Polish issue to every subject as if the entire world history turns around Poland.
In no way anyone would oppose to your writing a separate article on, say, defence of every shed by Poles from the foreign aggressors or about resettlement of or resentment by Poles. However, the amount of space devoted to the Polish issues in the non-Polish articles should be reasonable. I have no hope that you will ever get it. -- Irpen 22:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, I've seen enough of your non-pushy habbit, you know. Do you remember by any chance who wrote a whole chapter about PL for Soviet partisan? More examples?
I never said non-mention of Poles is fine. Reread what I said above: "Whatever of those events are important enough to be relevant for such a broad topic article needs to be integrated into one of the chronological chapters". or " If you feel like the subject is underrepresented here, integrate some non-excessive info to the chronological flow of events ". Where do you get my preference towards nonmention of Poles from that? -- Irpen 05:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As for the sources, the problem might be lack of Lithuanian research of the subject. I'm sure this will change but I'm afraid for now most of the sources are Polish, and obviously some of them are less fair than the others, so they need to be approached with caution (but not dismissed on the spot). A piece of research that I have at hand is "Polacy w Litewskiej SSR 1944-1989" by Aleksander Srebrakowski. The author, among the other things, discusses the "repatriation" figures given by J.Czerniakiewicz in his "Repatriacja ludności polskiej z ZSRR 1944-1948. According to Czerniakiewicz there were total 197,156 people evacuated from the territory of Lithuanian Soviet Republic to Poland in 1945-1947. 177,814 of these were Polish, 16,958 were Jewish and 2,328 other nationalities. Then there was a second wave of population transfer to Poland in 1955-1959 which seems to be more difficult to assess in numbers. -- Lysy talk 16:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Considering the current poor state of the article, I would suggest addressing the issue in a separate article and linking it here from a sentence; otherwise any even reasonably good section will be longer then the entire entry on PLC times or other important periods. That said, I am again disappointed by the behaviour of some users, who seem to make a hobby of personal attacks (or at least incivility) against such valuable editors as Halibutt. Please, read what you write, and remember that your edits are up there for eternity.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
On separate article. I don't think it should be called "Resettlement of Poles from Lithuania" but rather "Resettlement of Poles from Soviet Union". Further more, correct me if I'm wrong, there was some sort of agreement between Poland and Soviet Union on population exchange and some Lithuanians, Ukranians and Bielorussians were resettled from Poland to SU. So both processes should be mentioned (not just resettlement of Poles) in the article and it is name. Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 08:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. if you please be so kind, and point to my words, in which i did oppose your idea, I'd more than happy.
Let me add a few cents to this discussion. First, Dude, 'but, cool off and restart. The circle you are both talking is in much limited only to your two circular logic and whining over a few rare past greviances. You are both guilty here: Dude, you should have not removed the reference (per WP:RS), 'but, you are sometimes not very mindful for WP:CIV. So you both should feel scolded by me, and now behave :) Lokyz, 'but. I am really happy to see the discussion raising to much better levels. As I said before, Google Print is just a database, it is no worse and no better then any other. Citing sources is good, and because of GP friendliness it is easier to verify a source from it then from, let's say, JSTOR database (per WP:V). Of course, there are better books and worse books, but arguments against a source should be presented one by one, at talk, and directed against a specific source, not against a database. Second, Halibutt, I think the best thing to do is to write the article (or section) and add references to it, then we can discuss it in more detail. Third, I'd like to draw comparison between the expulsion of Poles from the (Soviet) Lithuania and Germans from Poland: in both cases the local authorities, while generally supportive, were controlled by the Soviets, and it is reasonable to say that if not for the Soviet's masterplan much fewer attrocities would have been comitted. The degree to which the respective local authorities were autonomous and helped is certainly worth describing, but please, stick to sources, preferably English and academic.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I accidentally found out that the article uses verbatim paragraphs long text from external site, this US DoS page. While not a copyvio, since the text is probably PD, it is perhaps not a very good style. I found two paragraphs exactly dupicated. Perhaps, there is more. Someone interested, please overhaul this. It is too important an article and we have to show that we can do it better than copying material from elsewhere. Whoever has time and interest, please consider this suggestion. -- Irpen 00:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the article lacks the explanation of why/how the territory of Lithuania changed so significantly at the turn of 19th/20th century. -- Lysy talk 05:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
"...ultimately the Germans annexed Lithuania."
The population figure for Vilnius after partition is unbelievable. with 250,000 citizens it would be as large as Vienna, and twice bigger than Warsaw (which was certainly the largest city of Commonwealth before partitioning. I guess there's one "0" too much in this figure. 62.179.74.97 12:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there another article detailing what happened in Lithuania under Soviet rule? Surely it is worth going into in some detail as it spans 50 years of the country's development despite as part of another state. The Lithuanian SSR article is not exactly in-depth coverage of a major part of Lithuania's modern history. Lstanley1979 ( talk) 18:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
For quite a time ,a single registered contributor is trying to remove a particular picture [8] [9] [10] [11] Favorite rationale WP:UNDUE. Historic picture represents significant events in Lithuania’s history, namely result or Armia Krajowa criminal actions, which is responsible in total for thousands of Lithuanian people deaths, (like Dubingiai massacre). Actions of Armia Krajowa covered in various Lithuanian academic publications like the newest one (in which I am aware) Lithuanian Historical Studies, 2006; etc. Therefore AK actions in important aspect of Lithuania’s history and this why specific image meets necessary criteria required by WP. Looking deeper ,If we going to use WP:UNDUE as an “argument” in similar cases, almost all pictures of The Holocaust article should be also removed, as they, to certain type contributors, may look like not neutral. In other hand in current article we have various pictures including alleged meeting in Vilnius for “welcoming” occupying Red Army. Of course if any contributor has accesses to pictures there Lithuanians greeting AK with flowers, please by my quest and add it. M.K. ( talk) 13:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why this well referenced fact is getting removed. Battle of Warsaw (1920) saved Lithuanian from Soviet occupation in 1920 (as clearly noted by several referenced historians) and hence is a crucial event that shaped interwar Lithuanian history. The fact surely deserves to be mentioned? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The cruel Poles demanded normalization and poor Lithuania wasn't able to wage a war. A real tragedy... Xx236 ( talk) 15:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I tried to improve this History of Lithuania article. Some periods are still barely covered and I hope to be able to do some more work here. Orczar ( talk) 13:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
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A total fantasy, depicting "ethnic Baltic pagans" (allegedly solely carrying the name of Litwins (Lithuanians) - although never proved so) "brave warriors", "conquering" the neighbouring despised "Ruthenians"; and not regarding Belarusians as Litwins, although they carried that name. What can I say?... It is a total erotic fantasy of modern Lietuviai (so-called "Lithuanians") and Vatican fiction writers.
Few remarks: "St. Nicholas in Vilnius, the oldest church in Lithuania, built before 1387". It was well known not long ago, that this church dates back to approximately 1440, which had been the established dating up to recently. But "someone" needed to have an older catholic church in Vilna (older than orthodox churches), to depict Lietuviai (Lithuanians) as "traditional catholics". So what has been done? The church has been redated one hundred years earlier. Yes, there are mentions of it ca. 1387, but the early statements say that it was wooden, and the brick building was constructed much later, perhaps ca. 1440, as the previos investigations showed. Moreover, it is well known, that this church was a church of German merchants, in their traditional trading post. What has it to do with "traditional (??) Lithuanian catholicism in the 14th century"?? One needs to be a lunatic, to make the German merchant church in the foreign town block a symbol of "Lithuanian catholicism" in the 14th century, considering Lithuania was in the state of constant war with all catholic states up to 1387, and with the German Order up to 1410.
And what regarding "the oldest churches"? I wonder if the author of this statement has ever seen this cathedral church. It was founded by grand duke Olgierd in 1346, and from 1415 it was the seat of Lithuanian Metropolitan. Or this one? It dates back to 1331. Or this one, founded in 1340? Aren't they not "built before 1387" and not older than your German St. Nicholas being wooden before 1387 and existing in brick in 1440, in the trading post of foreign merchants?... Or you are just counting Catholic churches? You seem to be not very happy with Vilna, and in general, Lithuanian history. So what is the purpose of all these tricks? Just to turn a blind eye on the cathedral of 1346, and a church built in 1331 (by the way, founded by grand duke's wife) - to make your German merchant church, being wooden in the 14th century, "the oldest one in Lithuania". Still feel pleased with yourself? All these activities are just destruction of real Lithuanian history, and an ethnocide against Belarusians, and in general Slavonic people, who were called Litwins in GDL, and ruled it with their language, their administrative system and their culture. You should amend the lies in the article, otherwise you should be ashamed.
Remark No.2: the map "Lithuania in 1250". The borders of Lithuania here have totally nothing to do with reality. By 1250 GDL embraced Polack, Minsk, Mozyr, Pinsk and all Belarus, as all sources and all researchers admit, but this is not reflected in the map. And at least a part of this Slavonic population were also Litwins, as the papal document of 1257 states: "confinio Litwinorum" (the border of Poles on Lithuanians) lied between Lukow and Brest (Preussisches Urkundenbuch, Bd. I, H. 2, No. 4). If you don't believe me, look up Roger Bacon's Opus Majus of 1268: Bacon's "Lithuania" is "a large country equal to Germany (Allemania)" which borders on Estonia (i.d. comprises either Latygola or Pskov lands) and on Poland (n.b. not Mazovia, which had been an independent state up to 1526, but Poland - i.e. Bacon's "Lithuania" embraced Brest lands). So, that's what Bacon, the contemporary of 1250, said. He seems to be the last British ever telling truth on Lithuanian history...
I feel that commenting on the errors and outright lies in the articles on medieval Lithuanian history in English medium is senseless, because those seem to be totally consisting of lies or at least striving to do so, by total elimination of Slavonic language, culture and religion from Lithuanian history (although it was the only thing that really did compose its real history)... Rasool-3 ( talk) 06:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I've incorporated the many valuable insights from Timothy Snyder's book. Orczar ( talk) 14:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if scholars have produced a map of Lithuanian-speaking areas at the time of the smallest geographical distribution of spoken Lithuanian dialects, may be mid-19th century or something like that. It would be instructive to see what the starting point of the national revival was. Orczar ( talk) 16:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Lithuanian territorial issues 1939–40 needs key or at least an explanation, in the caption, of the colors. Sca ( talk) 15:28, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
...with its Lithuanian majority.
From Klaipėda region:
Population | German | Memelländisch | Lithuanian | other | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
141,645 | 41.9% | 27.1% | 26.6% | 4.4% |
Therefore, above clause has been changed to ...with its large Lithuanian minority, and the exaggerated, POV map "Lithuanian-speaking areas in the 16th century" (which cites no sources) deleted. Sca ( talk) 22:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
I think we should add one because people could see info about that period easier in the infobox. There is no problem if it is the same republic as the current one! For example, take a look at the Afghanistan 1996-2001 page! It's the same emirate as the current one, and there it not seems to be a problem! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.25.122.234 ( talk) 13:12, 9 October 2021 (UTC)