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The vocalization is wrong. The xiriq is NOT properly centered in the letter resh, but goes under the downstroke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.97.111 ( talk) 14:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
This aleges that tzere in modern hebrew is "correctly pronounced as EI" that is incorrect, sure it is in the anglosized synogogue "sephardic hebrew" they teach in America. but in israel its only dipthongized in some words that are remnants of the ashkenazi pronunciation,even then not everyone does. Also "ei" shouldn't be considered more "correct" as dipthongized vowels are alien to hebrew, ei only exist in Ashkenazi (and Ashkenazi influenced) Hebrew —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.66 ( talk) 21:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
There are no names for letters with geresh representing non-Hebrew sounds. I heard "Tshadik" a couple of times as a joke, but i've never heard "Jimel", "Zhayin", or "Thav". It looks totally made up. I'm removing those names. Please correct me if i'm wrong. --
Amir E. Aharoni (
talk)
18:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Aharon, could you please state your source for the information under Literal meaning of letters? Regarding the meanings of the letters' names, I believe there is some confusion between their original meanings and etymology on the one hand and the meanings that these names (or words similar to them) acquired later on the other hand. I believe e.g. that the name "Aleph" originated from the old Hebrew word "aluph", meaning ox, and not from "elef", meaning "one thousand". The letter's old form depicted the head of an ox, as you can see in the table. Please be careful to avoid pseudoscientific language comparison between ancient and modern Hebrew. Dan Pelleg ( talk) 13:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
This is incorrect. That assumes Hebrew was derived from Phonecian. Aleph its self is constructed of two yuds and a vuv. The gemattria of this number is 26, and it's used to represent the name of G*d. Each letter has an intentional shape. CheskiChips ( talk) 14:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know all of them, but I do know that the name of Hebrew Letter Beyt derives from the Hebrew word Bayit(בַּיִת) meaning "house" according to the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. I found a few of them there, but there might be more somewhere on that site. Of course, I've been to this site, and, unfortunately, the dictionary that they have there is very limited, but considering how humble the owner of that site is, you might be able to persuade him to make some updates to it, so long as you provide adequete sources. Scholars love their sources. AurumSpiral1235813 ( talk) 20:55, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
If you notice in the part where it shows the diferenced between shin and sin, pe and fe bet vet...... All the dots are aligned too far to the left. It seems to be a format error because i checked the source code, but thoughti'd bring it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.121.231 ( talk) 21:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Why in 'History' are Rabbi's who dedicate their entire lives to this not considered "Contemporary Scholars"?
The evidence that letters were resultant from some proto language are unsubstantiated. Evidences include allusion in various Talmud passages with the importance of each precise letter. Later Sefer Yetzirah discusses the importance of the letters in shape. Various kabbalistic teachings are entirely based on the shape of letters, and for that matter the pronunciations. It should not be taken entirely lightly. Theologically Assyria decended of the same family, there's no reason to assume the two weren't always identical.
Pronunciation:
yod also is identical to 'ee' and 'ih'. The combination of these two is its self a dipthong creating the modern "y" sound. Aleph-Yod is equivalent to the modern letter "I".
Vuv is more likely "waw", the reason it can use the tones "ooh" and "oh" are the fact that those two sounds as a dipthong are the letter 'w'. This is in use in Mitzrahi Judaism, and some other sects.
Missing in the Dagesh is "Gimel/Jimel" which is in use in many American and Israeli communities. Also Tav/Sav is not the only interpretation, there is also thav/tav which seems more likely. Also missing in Dagesh is Resh / Resh (Gutteral). The modern use is similar to a "w", but the original is a gutteral sound similar to the ayin.
Ayin is not pronounced the same as Aleph. Ayin has a gutteral sound applied to it, a gutteral sound void of tonality almost a controlled rolling grunt.
Sepher Yetzirah also implies that there are defined divisions. Fundamentals. Labials. Palletals. Dentals. Gutterals. and Excess.
CheskiChips (
talk)
14:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Note that Greek is a daughter language of Phoenician. It might be useful to add the greek letters that apply to the Phoenician letters under the "Names, scripts, values, and transliteration of the letters" in the article. Nschoem 03:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nschoem ( talk • contribs)
Where on Wikipedia can I find how the names of the letters are pronounced, in the context of referring to them in English? Not the sound represented by the letters, but the name of the letters themselves, when speaking English, as in "the name of the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet is aleph". Aleph is easy enough but should vav be "vow", "vav" or "wow", shwa "shwa" /ʃwɑ:/ or "shva" /ʃvɑ:/, he "heh" /hɛ/ or "hey" /heɪ/, etc? The information should probably be given both on this page and the one corresponding to each letter. Flapdragon ( talk) 18:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Name of letter | Aleph | Bet/Vet | Gimel | Dalet | He | Vav | Zayin | Heth | Tet | Yud | Kaph/Khaph |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
standard pronunciation | /'alef/ | /bet/ | /'gimel/ | /'dalet/ | /he/ | /vav/ | /'zajin/ | /ħet/ | /tet/ | /jod/ | /kaf/ |
colloquial Israeli pronunciation (if differing) | /'daled/ | /hej/ | /'zain/ | /χet/ | /jud/ | ||||||
א | ב | ג | ד | ה | ו | ז | ח | ט | י | כ | |
ך | |||||||||||
Name of letter | Lamed | Mem | Nun | Samekh | Ayin | Pe/Phe | Tsadi | Quph | Resh | Shin/Sin | Tav |
standard pronunciation | /'lamed/ | /mem/ | /nun/ | /'sameχ/ | /'ʕajin/ | /pe/ | /'ʦadi/ | /kof/ | /reʃ/ | /ʃin/ | /tav/ |
colloquial Israeli pronunciation (if differing) | /'ain/ | /pej/ | /'ʦadik/ | /kuf/ | /rejʃ/ | /taf/ | |||||
ל | מ | נ | ס | ע | פ | צ | ק | ר | ש | ת | |
ם | ן | ף | ץ |
(
[1]) -
Dan Pelleg (
talk)
21:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that sometimes when the Hebrew alphabet was used to write Judeo-Arabic letters were written with overdots similar to those of the Arabic alphabet to represent similar sounds (e.g. ד with three overdots for [ð]). Is there a proper encoding for this on computers, and should information on this be included in this article? Mo-Al ( talk) 00:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Should the pronunciation of the names of the letters kheth ח as /ħ/ and ayin ע as /ʕ/ really be called "Standard Israeli", and should the pronunciations that equate them with a dagesh-less kaph and with an aleph respectively really be labelled "colloquial Israeli"? I understand that the Oriental pronunciation is theoretically sort-of official according to the Academy of Hebrew, but isn't it more of an exception than a norm even in official discourse? Calling it "colloquial" would suggest that most Israelis are incapable of speaking in any other way than colloquially even in the most official of settings. That's not the way terms such as "standard" and "colloquial" are used, normally.
On the other hand, the Tiberian Hebrew forms of the names of the letters really should be given: unlike mainstream Israeli Hebrew, they really do preserve the original sounds.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 16:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Rashi script is listed as an ancestral script, alongside phoenecian, aramaic etc. I thought it was developed more recently, in Europe, which hardly qualifies it as an ancestral script. In fact, I think it is based on the block script we have now, so really it is a descendant of the block script. 128.100.71.45 ( talk) 15:31, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
In the table of Hebrew letters, the author neglected to list the soft ghimel and dhaleth. The fact that most modern Israelis do not recognize them does not mean they do not exist in Hebrew. The author should correct this; I do not have the tools to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhayat ( talk • contribs) 02:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
The markup of this article, I am afraid, is a total mess, especially in the tables. According to the Wikipedia Manual of Style, markup should be kept as simple as possible: Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Keep markup simple. This concerns, among other things, font sizes: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Font size:
Increased and decreased font size should primarily be produced through automated facilities such as headings or through carefully designed templates.
The hieratic markup severely handicaps the editability. I have now removed a few of the worst markup excesses, such as font-families (which in many occasions caused problems, see above Talk:Hebrew alphabet#Messed up dots in letters) or absolute size definitions. Much work remains to be done. -- mach ᵗᵃˡᵏ👍 08:52, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
The versions of kamatz and reduced kamatz shown in the first two tables in Hebrew alphabet#Vowel points are not the same as the ones that appear in the Comparison table that follows. The former versions, showing a kamatz as a horizontal line with a dot below instead of a T-like shape, are wholly incorrect. I suppose there might be a historic precedent for that form, but the T shape has been standard for many centuries. Check any of the article's references or the Hebrew Wikipedia article on kamatz. Enoent ( talk) 18:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
The Unicode fonts are terrible: indistinguishable and nearly illegible. Please replace all reference characters with actual images of letters, in the modern serif typeface.
The most confusion comes about from the similarities between Vav, Yod,Final Nun (ן,י,ו); Dalet,Zayin (ז,ד); and Final Kaf and Resh (ר,ך). The table of different styles (e.g., Rashi) is somewhat useful, however, the fact remains that for most people, the default font of Hebrew -- with which they are most familiar -- is the modern serif typeface, such as the one in the image in the infobox at the upper right hand corner of the page:
Saywhat2012 (
talk)
21:20, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I have been attempting to write in a similar alphabet but find that the ballpoint pen is just not up for the task, with what sort of writing utensils is this generally written with? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawjam ( talk • contribs) 22:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Is the vowel in "bus" really a good English analogue for the vowel sound represented by the niqqud Patach? I'd think it was closer to the "a" in "far" or "fall", as the article on Patach itself seems to indicate. Kevin Nelson ( talk) 06:36, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Final PE and TSADI seem to be mistaken for normal PE and TSADI. Can someone who knows Hebrew confirm that and correct it as I am only 99.9% sure about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.76.29.48 ( talk) 07:02, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Despite the fact that Hebrew script redirects here, this article is predominantly about the alphabet/abjad used specifically to write the Hebrew language, paying significantly less attention to the other languages written with the Hebrew script, such as the Yiddish language. I would recommend that someone with the appropriate knowledge replace the redirect with a separate article that addresses the Hebrew script from a common point of view, in a similar fashion to the article on the Cyrillic script. — Gordon P. Hemsley→ ✉ 13:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
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I've updated the page to reflect that Paleo-Hebrew has no 'final forms' like the modern Ashuri script does. The original phrasing seemed to suggest that both scripts used finals. I trust no-one will have any objection. 50.107.129.248 ( talk) 16:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC) B.A.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Hebrew alphabet. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I tryed every pre-installed font on Windows(TM) to render the glyphs of the Phoenician alphabet, to no avail. Could someone substitute images for the characters? FlavianusEP ( talk) 18:07, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
The order in which letters of the Hebrew alphabet are listed is the same everywhere and taken as read. Shouldn't the History section say something about when the ordering was first established, even if that means saying that it is no-longer known? -- DStanB ( talk) 10:51, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Dan Pelleg: I just revised an old contribution you made regarding vowels in Yiddish. Please have a look and let me know whether I've garbled the original intent of your contribution. Ibadibam ( talk) 01:58, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Can someone please find any one of thousands of better representations of the primitive Semitic alphabet? The modern, "gothic" bold/black square letters shown are both misleading and inaccurate to any inscriptions or ancient texts found. ~pablo david — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:3023:802:1A00:A94D:3B2F:BBE8:EF5C ( talk) 12:18, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any word in Hebrew Audio Bible where ח would be pronounced not as velar but as uvular fricative. So at least in ancient Hebrew it's always [x]. Perhaps I only know Askenasim and no Sephardim. Can [ χ get removed?-- Vollbracht ( talk) 13:12, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Someone in 2019 made a disambiguation page out of Cantillation with a rationale, but obviously didn't think to fix the previous usages. The previous page was moved to Hebrew cantillation.
Within this page there are at least two links to Cantillation that ought to be Hebrew cantillation, I think. Could someone knowledgeable check and update these? Shenme ( talk) 06:34, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 18:28, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
Hebrew alphabet → Hebrew script – It is an abjad not an alphabet. AleksiB 1945 ( talk) 13:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
It might be more helpful if the pronunciation examples given for the sofit forms contained that consonant at the end of the word, rather than at the beginning, as they now do. For example, for the letter /mɛm/, use "m as in Tom", rather than "m as in mother". Thomprod ( talk) 19:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
I pronounce as in login, not joke. 2.96.206.170 ( talk) 00:37, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
According to a comment in the EL section, Previous contributors to this article have expressed a preference for refraining from adding additional links; see also
Wikipedia:External links and
Wikipedia:Spam. If you would like to propose additional links, please first discuss on the article’s talk page and achieve consensus as a courtesy to previous/fellow contributors,
so I'm heeding this and humbly proposing to add a link to
this quiz tool, which can be used to aid the memorization of Hebrew letters.
82.43.190.243 (
talk)
20:39, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
the line break in question is separating the two words of matres lectionis, I would fix it but i do not know what is causing the line break and i did attempt to guess what was breaking it unsuccessfully, this could just be the device im reading it on but as of writing i lack the resources to verify that thesis. If someone could either reprehend my issue or reprimand the article's formatting that would be phenomenal.`
Caucasianhamburger ( talk) 13:55, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
I don't speak Hebrw, but it doesn't make sense to suggest "t as in tool" for [θ]. This is the case in a table for תָו /sɔv/, /sɔf/ /θav/ t as in tool Espensj ( talk) 08:11, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
In the alphabet table of the Pronunciation section, I see "[o]~[ō]" as the sound value given for ע (ayin). Isn't that a typo? Compare e.g. with the pronunciation key page indicating [ʔ] as ayin's modern Israeli phonetic value.
Would someone competent check it out? Thank you. Javítgató ( talk) 09:37, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
The previous description of the pronunciation of alef (a as in father) was useless, but the new version "When ʔ, as in button [ˈbʌʔn̩] or clipboard [ˌklɪʔˈbɔɹd]
" is not better. Although some English speakers pronounce button as /ˈbʌʔn̩/ (which is called "t-glottalisation"), the t is pronounced and there is no glottal stop in both standard British and standard US pronunciations: /ˈbʌtn/, /ˈbətn/, or similar. Check a dictionary. The second example, clipboard is a possibility but the given IPA omits the p for some reason despite it being always pronounced. About the closest English gets to a glottal stop is the cut between the p and the b, so /ˈklɪpʔbɔrd/, /ˈklɪpʔboʊrd/ are imperfect but perhaps close enough to give someone the idea if they aren't familiar with glottal stops. But really all this is saying is that alef used as a glottal stop is pronounced as a glottal stop (using IPA to explain IPA is a flawed idea). This omits that on a great many occasions it is pronounced as a vowel, as in the table
here, and that in the absence of
nikkud you just have to know the word.
Zero
talk
05:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
... so the simplest thing is to shortcut the technical language and acknowledge that sometimes alef in a word indicates a vowelis simple but pointlessly inaccurate for the same reason as, as I've already pointed out, we don't say that "sometimes bet is pronounced like [b] plus a vowel, that gimel is sometimes pronounced like [g] plus a vowel" etc. The comparable thing to do, if keeping it simple is the goal, is to say it's silent. There's no more reason to account for vowels explicitly when they follow aleph than there is when they follow a consonant familiar to English speakers, and it's confusing to do so. Just saying that aleph is silent will give the impression to a reader who doesn't understand that the vowels are unwritten that אמרתם is pronounced [mʁtm], which, of course, isn't true, but giving the impression that it's pronounced [amʁtm] is less helpful than that, as the explicit mention of the vowel only for the aleph implies that it is the only vowel in the word. Largoplazo ( talk) 04:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hebrew alphabet article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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![]() | On 13 August 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Hebrew script. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The vocalization is wrong. The xiriq is NOT properly centered in the letter resh, but goes under the downstroke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.97.111 ( talk) 14:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
This aleges that tzere in modern hebrew is "correctly pronounced as EI" that is incorrect, sure it is in the anglosized synogogue "sephardic hebrew" they teach in America. but in israel its only dipthongized in some words that are remnants of the ashkenazi pronunciation,even then not everyone does. Also "ei" shouldn't be considered more "correct" as dipthongized vowels are alien to hebrew, ei only exist in Ashkenazi (and Ashkenazi influenced) Hebrew —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.66 ( talk) 21:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
There are no names for letters with geresh representing non-Hebrew sounds. I heard "Tshadik" a couple of times as a joke, but i've never heard "Jimel", "Zhayin", or "Thav". It looks totally made up. I'm removing those names. Please correct me if i'm wrong. --
Amir E. Aharoni (
talk)
18:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Aharon, could you please state your source for the information under Literal meaning of letters? Regarding the meanings of the letters' names, I believe there is some confusion between their original meanings and etymology on the one hand and the meanings that these names (or words similar to them) acquired later on the other hand. I believe e.g. that the name "Aleph" originated from the old Hebrew word "aluph", meaning ox, and not from "elef", meaning "one thousand". The letter's old form depicted the head of an ox, as you can see in the table. Please be careful to avoid pseudoscientific language comparison between ancient and modern Hebrew. Dan Pelleg ( talk) 13:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
This is incorrect. That assumes Hebrew was derived from Phonecian. Aleph its self is constructed of two yuds and a vuv. The gemattria of this number is 26, and it's used to represent the name of G*d. Each letter has an intentional shape. CheskiChips ( talk) 14:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know all of them, but I do know that the name of Hebrew Letter Beyt derives from the Hebrew word Bayit(בַּיִת) meaning "house" according to the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. I found a few of them there, but there might be more somewhere on that site. Of course, I've been to this site, and, unfortunately, the dictionary that they have there is very limited, but considering how humble the owner of that site is, you might be able to persuade him to make some updates to it, so long as you provide adequete sources. Scholars love their sources. AurumSpiral1235813 ( talk) 20:55, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
If you notice in the part where it shows the diferenced between shin and sin, pe and fe bet vet...... All the dots are aligned too far to the left. It seems to be a format error because i checked the source code, but thoughti'd bring it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.121.231 ( talk) 21:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Why in 'History' are Rabbi's who dedicate their entire lives to this not considered "Contemporary Scholars"?
The evidence that letters were resultant from some proto language are unsubstantiated. Evidences include allusion in various Talmud passages with the importance of each precise letter. Later Sefer Yetzirah discusses the importance of the letters in shape. Various kabbalistic teachings are entirely based on the shape of letters, and for that matter the pronunciations. It should not be taken entirely lightly. Theologically Assyria decended of the same family, there's no reason to assume the two weren't always identical.
Pronunciation:
yod also is identical to 'ee' and 'ih'. The combination of these two is its self a dipthong creating the modern "y" sound. Aleph-Yod is equivalent to the modern letter "I".
Vuv is more likely "waw", the reason it can use the tones "ooh" and "oh" are the fact that those two sounds as a dipthong are the letter 'w'. This is in use in Mitzrahi Judaism, and some other sects.
Missing in the Dagesh is "Gimel/Jimel" which is in use in many American and Israeli communities. Also Tav/Sav is not the only interpretation, there is also thav/tav which seems more likely. Also missing in Dagesh is Resh / Resh (Gutteral). The modern use is similar to a "w", but the original is a gutteral sound similar to the ayin.
Ayin is not pronounced the same as Aleph. Ayin has a gutteral sound applied to it, a gutteral sound void of tonality almost a controlled rolling grunt.
Sepher Yetzirah also implies that there are defined divisions. Fundamentals. Labials. Palletals. Dentals. Gutterals. and Excess.
CheskiChips (
talk)
14:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Note that Greek is a daughter language of Phoenician. It might be useful to add the greek letters that apply to the Phoenician letters under the "Names, scripts, values, and transliteration of the letters" in the article. Nschoem 03:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nschoem ( talk • contribs)
Where on Wikipedia can I find how the names of the letters are pronounced, in the context of referring to them in English? Not the sound represented by the letters, but the name of the letters themselves, when speaking English, as in "the name of the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet is aleph". Aleph is easy enough but should vav be "vow", "vav" or "wow", shwa "shwa" /ʃwɑ:/ or "shva" /ʃvɑ:/, he "heh" /hɛ/ or "hey" /heɪ/, etc? The information should probably be given both on this page and the one corresponding to each letter. Flapdragon ( talk) 18:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Name of letter | Aleph | Bet/Vet | Gimel | Dalet | He | Vav | Zayin | Heth | Tet | Yud | Kaph/Khaph |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
standard pronunciation | /'alef/ | /bet/ | /'gimel/ | /'dalet/ | /he/ | /vav/ | /'zajin/ | /ħet/ | /tet/ | /jod/ | /kaf/ |
colloquial Israeli pronunciation (if differing) | /'daled/ | /hej/ | /'zain/ | /χet/ | /jud/ | ||||||
א | ב | ג | ד | ה | ו | ז | ח | ט | י | כ | |
ך | |||||||||||
Name of letter | Lamed | Mem | Nun | Samekh | Ayin | Pe/Phe | Tsadi | Quph | Resh | Shin/Sin | Tav |
standard pronunciation | /'lamed/ | /mem/ | /nun/ | /'sameχ/ | /'ʕajin/ | /pe/ | /'ʦadi/ | /kof/ | /reʃ/ | /ʃin/ | /tav/ |
colloquial Israeli pronunciation (if differing) | /'ain/ | /pej/ | /'ʦadik/ | /kuf/ | /rejʃ/ | /taf/ | |||||
ל | מ | נ | ס | ע | פ | צ | ק | ר | ש | ת | |
ם | ן | ף | ץ |
(
[1]) -
Dan Pelleg (
talk)
21:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that sometimes when the Hebrew alphabet was used to write Judeo-Arabic letters were written with overdots similar to those of the Arabic alphabet to represent similar sounds (e.g. ד with three overdots for [ð]). Is there a proper encoding for this on computers, and should information on this be included in this article? Mo-Al ( talk) 00:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Should the pronunciation of the names of the letters kheth ח as /ħ/ and ayin ע as /ʕ/ really be called "Standard Israeli", and should the pronunciations that equate them with a dagesh-less kaph and with an aleph respectively really be labelled "colloquial Israeli"? I understand that the Oriental pronunciation is theoretically sort-of official according to the Academy of Hebrew, but isn't it more of an exception than a norm even in official discourse? Calling it "colloquial" would suggest that most Israelis are incapable of speaking in any other way than colloquially even in the most official of settings. That's not the way terms such as "standard" and "colloquial" are used, normally.
On the other hand, the Tiberian Hebrew forms of the names of the letters really should be given: unlike mainstream Israeli Hebrew, they really do preserve the original sounds.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 16:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Rashi script is listed as an ancestral script, alongside phoenecian, aramaic etc. I thought it was developed more recently, in Europe, which hardly qualifies it as an ancestral script. In fact, I think it is based on the block script we have now, so really it is a descendant of the block script. 128.100.71.45 ( talk) 15:31, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
In the table of Hebrew letters, the author neglected to list the soft ghimel and dhaleth. The fact that most modern Israelis do not recognize them does not mean they do not exist in Hebrew. The author should correct this; I do not have the tools to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhayat ( talk • contribs) 02:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
The markup of this article, I am afraid, is a total mess, especially in the tables. According to the Wikipedia Manual of Style, markup should be kept as simple as possible: Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Keep markup simple. This concerns, among other things, font sizes: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Font size:
Increased and decreased font size should primarily be produced through automated facilities such as headings or through carefully designed templates.
The hieratic markup severely handicaps the editability. I have now removed a few of the worst markup excesses, such as font-families (which in many occasions caused problems, see above Talk:Hebrew alphabet#Messed up dots in letters) or absolute size definitions. Much work remains to be done. -- mach ᵗᵃˡᵏ👍 08:52, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
The versions of kamatz and reduced kamatz shown in the first two tables in Hebrew alphabet#Vowel points are not the same as the ones that appear in the Comparison table that follows. The former versions, showing a kamatz as a horizontal line with a dot below instead of a T-like shape, are wholly incorrect. I suppose there might be a historic precedent for that form, but the T shape has been standard for many centuries. Check any of the article's references or the Hebrew Wikipedia article on kamatz. Enoent ( talk) 18:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
The Unicode fonts are terrible: indistinguishable and nearly illegible. Please replace all reference characters with actual images of letters, in the modern serif typeface.
The most confusion comes about from the similarities between Vav, Yod,Final Nun (ן,י,ו); Dalet,Zayin (ז,ד); and Final Kaf and Resh (ר,ך). The table of different styles (e.g., Rashi) is somewhat useful, however, the fact remains that for most people, the default font of Hebrew -- with which they are most familiar -- is the modern serif typeface, such as the one in the image in the infobox at the upper right hand corner of the page:
Saywhat2012 (
talk)
21:20, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I have been attempting to write in a similar alphabet but find that the ballpoint pen is just not up for the task, with what sort of writing utensils is this generally written with? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawjam ( talk • contribs) 22:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Is the vowel in "bus" really a good English analogue for the vowel sound represented by the niqqud Patach? I'd think it was closer to the "a" in "far" or "fall", as the article on Patach itself seems to indicate. Kevin Nelson ( talk) 06:36, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Final PE and TSADI seem to be mistaken for normal PE and TSADI. Can someone who knows Hebrew confirm that and correct it as I am only 99.9% sure about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.76.29.48 ( talk) 07:02, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Despite the fact that Hebrew script redirects here, this article is predominantly about the alphabet/abjad used specifically to write the Hebrew language, paying significantly less attention to the other languages written with the Hebrew script, such as the Yiddish language. I would recommend that someone with the appropriate knowledge replace the redirect with a separate article that addresses the Hebrew script from a common point of view, in a similar fashion to the article on the Cyrillic script. — Gordon P. Hemsley→ ✉ 13:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
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I've updated the page to reflect that Paleo-Hebrew has no 'final forms' like the modern Ashuri script does. The original phrasing seemed to suggest that both scripts used finals. I trust no-one will have any objection. 50.107.129.248 ( talk) 16:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC) B.A.
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I tryed every pre-installed font on Windows(TM) to render the glyphs of the Phoenician alphabet, to no avail. Could someone substitute images for the characters? FlavianusEP ( talk) 18:07, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
The order in which letters of the Hebrew alphabet are listed is the same everywhere and taken as read. Shouldn't the History section say something about when the ordering was first established, even if that means saying that it is no-longer known? -- DStanB ( talk) 10:51, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Dan Pelleg: I just revised an old contribution you made regarding vowels in Yiddish. Please have a look and let me know whether I've garbled the original intent of your contribution. Ibadibam ( talk) 01:58, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Can someone please find any one of thousands of better representations of the primitive Semitic alphabet? The modern, "gothic" bold/black square letters shown are both misleading and inaccurate to any inscriptions or ancient texts found. ~pablo david — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:3023:802:1A00:A94D:3B2F:BBE8:EF5C ( talk) 12:18, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any word in Hebrew Audio Bible where ח would be pronounced not as velar but as uvular fricative. So at least in ancient Hebrew it's always [x]. Perhaps I only know Askenasim and no Sephardim. Can [ χ get removed?-- Vollbracht ( talk) 13:12, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Someone in 2019 made a disambiguation page out of Cantillation with a rationale, but obviously didn't think to fix the previous usages. The previous page was moved to Hebrew cantillation.
Within this page there are at least two links to Cantillation that ought to be Hebrew cantillation, I think. Could someone knowledgeable check and update these? Shenme ( talk) 06:34, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 18:28, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
Hebrew alphabet → Hebrew script – It is an abjad not an alphabet. AleksiB 1945 ( talk) 13:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
It might be more helpful if the pronunciation examples given for the sofit forms contained that consonant at the end of the word, rather than at the beginning, as they now do. For example, for the letter /mɛm/, use "m as in Tom", rather than "m as in mother". Thomprod ( talk) 19:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
I pronounce as in login, not joke. 2.96.206.170 ( talk) 00:37, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
According to a comment in the EL section, Previous contributors to this article have expressed a preference for refraining from adding additional links; see also
Wikipedia:External links and
Wikipedia:Spam. If you would like to propose additional links, please first discuss on the article’s talk page and achieve consensus as a courtesy to previous/fellow contributors,
so I'm heeding this and humbly proposing to add a link to
this quiz tool, which can be used to aid the memorization of Hebrew letters.
82.43.190.243 (
talk)
20:39, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
the line break in question is separating the two words of matres lectionis, I would fix it but i do not know what is causing the line break and i did attempt to guess what was breaking it unsuccessfully, this could just be the device im reading it on but as of writing i lack the resources to verify that thesis. If someone could either reprehend my issue or reprimand the article's formatting that would be phenomenal.`
Caucasianhamburger ( talk) 13:55, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
I don't speak Hebrw, but it doesn't make sense to suggest "t as in tool" for [θ]. This is the case in a table for תָו /sɔv/, /sɔf/ /θav/ t as in tool Espensj ( talk) 08:11, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
In the alphabet table of the Pronunciation section, I see "[o]~[ō]" as the sound value given for ע (ayin). Isn't that a typo? Compare e.g. with the pronunciation key page indicating [ʔ] as ayin's modern Israeli phonetic value.
Would someone competent check it out? Thank you. Javítgató ( talk) 09:37, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
The previous description of the pronunciation of alef (a as in father) was useless, but the new version "When ʔ, as in button [ˈbʌʔn̩] or clipboard [ˌklɪʔˈbɔɹd]
" is not better. Although some English speakers pronounce button as /ˈbʌʔn̩/ (which is called "t-glottalisation"), the t is pronounced and there is no glottal stop in both standard British and standard US pronunciations: /ˈbʌtn/, /ˈbətn/, or similar. Check a dictionary. The second example, clipboard is a possibility but the given IPA omits the p for some reason despite it being always pronounced. About the closest English gets to a glottal stop is the cut between the p and the b, so /ˈklɪpʔbɔrd/, /ˈklɪpʔboʊrd/ are imperfect but perhaps close enough to give someone the idea if they aren't familiar with glottal stops. But really all this is saying is that alef used as a glottal stop is pronounced as a glottal stop (using IPA to explain IPA is a flawed idea). This omits that on a great many occasions it is pronounced as a vowel, as in the table
here, and that in the absence of
nikkud you just have to know the word.
Zero
talk
05:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
... so the simplest thing is to shortcut the technical language and acknowledge that sometimes alef in a word indicates a vowelis simple but pointlessly inaccurate for the same reason as, as I've already pointed out, we don't say that "sometimes bet is pronounced like [b] plus a vowel, that gimel is sometimes pronounced like [g] plus a vowel" etc. The comparable thing to do, if keeping it simple is the goal, is to say it's silent. There's no more reason to account for vowels explicitly when they follow aleph than there is when they follow a consonant familiar to English speakers, and it's confusing to do so. Just saying that aleph is silent will give the impression to a reader who doesn't understand that the vowels are unwritten that אמרתם is pronounced [mʁtm], which, of course, isn't true, but giving the impression that it's pronounced [amʁtm] is less helpful than that, as the explicit mention of the vowel only for the aleph implies that it is the only vowel in the word. Largoplazo ( talk) 04:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)