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Question: would it be more accurate to say from William of Tyre's accounts onward he was known as the Old Man of the Mountain? He seemed to have coined the term before Polo, and the page for Order of Assassins places Tyre as a greater influence. Don't know enough about the history to say which one was actually more influential and if saying it first matters more, just a thought. –Anon
I've read in several places (among them, Wikipedia itself) that the Hashish story was a myth, invented by Marco Polo. Can anyone doublecheck? --Anon.
-- HussaynKhariq 20:40, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-- TahitiB 21:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Marco Polo story of the garden is of course a legend with no basis in reality. The Wiki article really needs to be totally rewritten but I don't have time to do this at present so I've just modified it a bit to correct the more egregious errors. Anyone interested in the subject: please see my online book The Assassins of Alamut. Acampbell70 12:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Regarding HasanII, Isma'ili have a different take on his leadership, as an Isma'ili I would like to add our persective on him, to contrast the other side and maintain POV. However I think references to Hasan II, to be short since this article deals with Hassan I sabbah, any objections?--
86.146.0.135 00:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of helping out in this conversation, what follows is what Polo said, courtesy of Project Gutenberg. -- Rhwawn ( talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that Hassan-i Sabah ever said "Nothing is true; everything is permitted", or is that just something Burroughs made up? --Anon.
Isn't the phrase 'Nothing is true; everything is permitted' one used by Aleister Crowley's Thelema movement? ThePeg 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I am a little concerned about the fact that the "Life and Work" and "Ismaili Perspective" sections are separate from one another. By doing so, instead of creating a neutral point of view about Hassan-i-Sabbah, one instead creates two opposing and drastically different views about the subject. Furthermore, the "Ismaili Perspective" appears to be discredited by the the fact that that it is under a separate section from the "Life and Work", which makes it seems that the first section is correct and the Ismaili section is not. I know that this was not the objective, but that is just how it comes across. Perhaps something should be done to merge the two articles. Suggestions are welcome. -- R.suleman 02:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
A very good point. I was mystified by the tone of this article. The first half of this article seems to be an almost adoring portrait of what seems like an impressive man dedicated to a search for spiritual truth and honour (if a little harsh and austere here and there!). The second suggests he and his followers were just ruthless killers. Very disorientating. ThePeg 17:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This whole section seems dramatized and possibly plagarized. Also it contradicts other parts of the page when it says that they smoked Hashish. I would recommend getting rid of that section all together but someone may want to salvage it.-- 216.162.88.226 17:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The name "Hassan" is spelled in (at least) three different ways (Hassan, Hasan, Hæsæn), for no apparent reason (at least to me). Is that deliberate/proper?
[Might I suggest that one spelling be selected and the others, if at all valid, be mentioned in parentheses probably before the persian).]
With all due respect (and there is plenty, given the length of this article), this article is biased and its references are properly unmade. I have done a tiny part in correcting this; I may due further work on this article, or I may not. Take upon thine-on-self. Jpipkin42000 10:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The title for this article seems to be incorrect (although with the complete lack of reference, it's not the only thing wrong with it!) "Hassan-i-Sabah" makes it sound like it's one-word. But from the Persian, I can only assume that the correct spelling should be Hassen-i Sabbah, or Hassan-e Sabbah.
Google search:
So my assumptions seem to be correct that at the moment, the title needs changing, I propose that it should be changed to "Hassan Sabbah" or "Hassan-i Sabbah" -- Rayis 23:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Where are all the citations for the bold statements about Hassan-I Sabbah? There are, as mentioned, many contradictory statements in this article, none of which seem to be supported by any references that I can see. If the use of hashish by his followers is controversial or untrue, it would help to put it in a separate section under "legends concerning Hassan-I Sabbah" or something similar, and please, cite the information allowing one to say that these are just legends. The fact that similar statements regarding the man are made in different sections, but with different editorial spins on them, only helps to confound the reader. Hassan-I Sabbah is an interesting character; it would be nice to see an entry here that actually can help shed some light on him without these problems obscuring the entry to no end.
I'm going to be bold and dramatically trim the trivia section. I don't think we need to list every instance in which the name "Hassan-i Sabbah" is used in popular literature, movies, games, etc.... A book which names a character "Hassan-i Sabbah", but represents him in a historically inaccurate manner is not describing the Hassan-i Sabbah of this article, and thus it does not belong here. The same goes for video games. Basically, this section is just junking up the article and is very unencyclopedic. Per WP:TRIVIA, please feel free to re-add the information if it can be incorporated in the main body of the text. AlphaEta 04:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
It is clearly stated in most sources present in this article that his father was an Arab (and claimed Yemeni decent (as with the Early Life section. Why on Earth does it mention he is a Persian in the text? Is this more changing of historical alterations, inaccuracies and denial by Persian Nationalists for their racist agendas? Being born in Persia by no means makes him a Persian. As presented by such people in discussions with the case of Avicenna, Arabisation, language and generally taking up of a new ethnic identity halfway through life does not count for anything - a person's ethnicity counts on there geneological origin. So using that same logic, that makes Hassan-i Sabbah an Arab due to his father's (claimed) geneology, so I changed the opening intro. Please discuss here before changing if you disagree, as my claims are sources by the very sources those Persian Nationalists used for their ridiculous claims. Peace. SaSH ( talk) 11:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I can agree with your statement. Lewis, Bernard, The Assassins, a radical sect in Islam (New York, 1968) says: Hasan was born in Qumm, one of the first centres of Arab settlement in Persia. His father, a Twelver Shi'ite had come from Kufa in Iraq and was said to be of Yemini origin, a descant of the ancient Himyaritic kings of Southern Arabia. So, yes his father was an Arab.
-- H. 12:40 26 september 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 10:41, 26 September 2011 (UTC).
Sorry to disappoint you but the only "fact" here is that he was born in Persia to Iranian parents. His father's claim of being Yemenite doesn't change that. His mother was not jewish, but Persian, and his father was most probably Persian also. In those times it was popular to pass oneself as an Arab because of the tyranny the Arabs had introduced in those regions. And the only source of the Yemenite claim is from Encyclopedia Iranica, which most of this article is written from. Except of course parts where it says that Hassan-e Sabbah tried replacing Arabic with Persian in all his and his follower's writings. SomeGuy1122 ( talk) 04:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Removed entire "Legacy" section. The documentation was not from good primary sources. Most 'information' was speculation, POV, and some was propaganda. There is plenty of good source material in the "Reference" and "Further Reading" sections. Tapered ( talk) 10:21, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted recent unexplained deletions/changes. After some searching I found no reliable source stating Hassan as Persian. Therefore, I will be taking information from Lewis and Daftary sources stating Yemeni/Arab. If there are any concerns over this issue, I would expect a discussion before any changes to his ethnicity. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 21:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Per user:Aretemetic's latest edit using, Rashid ud-din Fazalellah 'Jame-ut-Tawrikh', pg. 1, appears to be a fake source. I seriously doubt that the Jami ut Tawrikh mentions Hassan-i Sabbah on page 1!!! -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 21:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
As it is clear he was born in Qom, And Qom is a city in Iran, and people who born in Iran are obviously Persian not Arabs, So he is Persian not Arab ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhviraf ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Claiming that Sabbah is either Arab or Persian is tendentious. Only known is that family was from Kufa and later moved to central Iran. Assuming that Kufan is Arab isn't much right, that city was inhabited by both Arabs and Persians (Abu Hanifa is most famous). We also know that his father claimed Yamanite origin. Note "claimed" and "Yamanite" (not Yemenite) in English book where actually don't mention Arab as Kansas bolded (Daftary, p. 123). Yamani is important figure in Shia eschatology and such claiming origins was common in past as much as today - many Persian Shia clerics like " Mousavis" claim origin from twelver Imams who were Arabs, but that doesn't make them Arab. The same goes for Hassan's father. He's Kufan for sure, but ethnic origins (Arab/Persian/other) are unknown. Both sides can insert some 6-7 sources about his being "Persian" or "Arab" to prove their pov, but such books deal little with his origins. Intro with "a Nizārī missionary" is enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.172.48 ( talk) 07:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
p.s. I also removed note that he was born in Persian Empire. In Buyyid case "empire" is problematic, and in Seljuk case "Persian". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.172.48 ( talk) 07:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Now this is funny, because I assumed precisely the same for you. It was my right because:
"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad al-Sabbah al-Himyarl, a Kufan claiming Himyarl Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, A Short History of the Ismailis, Edinburgh University Press, 1998, page 123 [5]
"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b. Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b. al- Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan claiming Himyari Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Ismailis in Medieval Muslim Societies, I. B. Tauris, 2005, page 127 [6]
"His father, ʿAli b. Moḥammad b. Jaʿfar al-Ṣabbāḥ al-Ḥemyari, a Kufan claiming Ḥemyari Yemenite origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Ḥasan Ṣabbāḥ, Encyclopedia Iranica, 2003/2012 [7]
"His father, ʿAli b. Moḥammad b. Ja'far al-Sabbah, a Kufan claiming Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Hassan-i Sabbah in Medieval Islamic Civilization: A-K, index, Taylor & Francis, 2006
"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b al-Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan claiming..." - Farhad Daftary, Mediaeval Isma'ili History and Thought, Cambridge University Press, 1996, page 187 [8]
Five scholary sources, same author, almost identhical sentence, and all without "Arab" word. So I still say edit by Kansas was wrong, it was surely done in good faith but now article version is tendentious. Since all works are avaliable online you can check that Mr. Daftary don't call Hassan as either Arab or Persian, he clearly states everywhere that little information is available on his early life. Some argued that he was Persian because Qom is Persian city and because he replaced Arabic with Persian as the religious language. This informations are correct but still not proof of his Persian ethnicity. Daftary on many places say "Persian Nizaris" and on page 187 (A Short History of the Ismailis) he speaks about Persian national motives in Hassan's revolt. Still, it isn't any proof of his Persian ethnicity either. Regarding Lewis' book The Assassins, fact that Qom was one of first centres of Arab settlement in Persia isn't any kind of proof that he was Arab as User:Hugoo_B concluded, neither is proof that it was Arab-only city. Here is quote from Iranica: [9]
"The population amounted to 50,000 inhabitants at the most and consisted of Persians and Arabs who had adopted the Persian of the time (Ebn Ḥawqal, p. 362; Drechsler, p. 198, n. 956) as their language and many social customs from the Persians, whose proportion was probably smaller than the Arabs."
Qom was mixed city of Persian-speaking Arabs and Persians, neither Arab as User:Hugoo_B claimed, or Persian-only as SomeGuy1122 stated. The same goes for Kufa, also mixed city. Lewis don't call Hassan as an Arab and that's only important. There isn't any scholar of Ismaili studies which call him either Arab or Persian, it simply can't be known for sure. As for non-professional books which do, "Arab" implies Muslim, and "Persian"/"Iranian" for geographic region. So disputing about ethnicity is childish.-- 109.165.172.48 ( talk) 20:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm going through and trying to research the sources behind a lot of these "citation needed"'s, and as I'm doing so I'm struck by the fact that many of the geographic boundaries are being described with modern state names, with "Iran" being used a synonym for "Persia." While there are many similarities between the two, the boundaries, both territorial and cultural, are not the same now as they were centuries ago and more modern history books tend to avoid this. Unless someone objects, as I go along I'm going to change anachronistic geography to what's in the history books (ie. Iran => Persia). The Cap'n ( talk) 18:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
First, I would like to apologize for our edit war, and any misunderstanding which may have caused you stress.
To my case:
I assure you, I am not adding inaccuracies. I am only making a clarification. Hassan-i Sabbah was a Persian Nizari Ismaili missionary. And... Born and raised in Persia, his father was believed to be a Kufan Arab claiming Yemenite origins. My only additions were made to clarify that Hassan was indeed Persian, as stated within the page, and that there is no absolute proof of his father being a Kufan Arab or proof of Yemenite origins. As the only record in mention is a 'possible' autobiography. One never proven to have ever been written by Hassan-i Sabbah. As I said, I am only adding a clarification. 1) He is a Persian (this is stated in the page) 2) His father was believed to be a Kufan Arab (as there is no proof of the source material being an actual autobiography) No other changes were made. Consider my fixes in your next edit. I will inform Favonian of the result in the next 24 hours, as he told me to speak to you first. I hope there will be no bias or anger due to my people or myself to influence your decision, and that you will honestly consider my changes as reasonable, harmless and not inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pahlavan Qahremani ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 15 August 2014
After reading all of this, I will summarize my response simply. None of these sources (the authors) are themselves reliable as they as well rely on the only account of Hassan-i Sabbah, which is his supposed autobiography. Aside from this, they often rely on what they learn from bias sources. The fact is, there is no PROOF that his father was a Kufan Arab, or that he was Yemenite. Only modern 'sources' have been referenced. Under the assumption we choose to agree on your decision on this being final, the first point of him being a "Persian Nizari Ismaili missionary" is still valid. Even stated in this very page. It is noted he was Persian (Early Life) and that he was a Nizari Ismaili missionary. All this does is combine the two in the brief description in the beginning. Also, it is often an issue in the West to refer to Muslims in general as Arab. Even well 'educated' sources. I can even quote well 'educated' authors whom refer to Rumi as a Turk or Arab, even though he was a Tajik Persian. This is not uncommon. The more you reference 20th Century Western Sources, the harder it is for me to take you seriously. In my experience, coming from a background of many historians, reading Western interpretation of Middle Eastern history is rarely that accurate. You almost want to applaud when it is. As I said, most OFTEN call any Muslim an Arab. Even Arabs do this a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.213.5 ( talk) 07:43, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
"Kansas bear" here does not speak out of any sourced material, but only from his own imaginings. He is one of many many others in Wikipedia who have gone around Persian related articles and put absolute lies and fabrications in them. He is an Eurocentric of some sort. If wikipedia had any credibility whatsoever or any administrators who weren't as biased as him then Wikipedia would not have been the unreliable joke it is now.
No historical or political articles in Wikipedia have any reliability whatsoever, as they as mostly written by those with an agenda to conceal the truth, or put their own delusions in them. As with this guy here. Wikipedia is a den of vipers, there is no saving it. In fact it is better that it has many editors like this individual so its credibility goes down further.
Hassan-e Sabbah being an Arab is an absolute joke, and any historian worth of salt would laugh at the idea. 81.170.232.49 ( talk) 10:35, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Can someone with knowledge of the subject and who also has a decent standard of English please take care of the incomprehensible google translation stuff in the article. 1812ahill ( talk) 03:16, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
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The title of the page is "Hassan-i Sabbah", but the very first sentence spells his name as "Hassan-e Sabbah" and claims that the spelling "Hassan-i" is incorrect. I'm a bit skeptical of that assertion: in my experience, transliterations are seldom correct/incorrect, just better or worse. Regardless, if true the article should be renamed. Can we please get a ruling on this from an authority on Persian? 98.110.113.134 ( talk) 23:48, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
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Recently a sentence about the sons of Hassan being killed was removed by an IP due to a lack of citation and it is "only alleged". I am sure there are citations to support these statements, but I am also sure they are rumors handed down. I looked for information on this and found the sons of Hassan were mentioned in the 14th century work Jami' al-tawarikh as translated by John Andrew Boyle titled The History Of The World Conqueror Vol II. Harvard University Press. This tells the complete story:
Hasan-i-Sabbah had two sons, one of whom was called Ustad Husain. Now in the castle of Alamut there was an *Alid called Zaid Hasani, who was secretly conducting propaganda on his own behalf and was on the point of putting an end to Hasan-i-Sabbah. And first he caused Husain of Qa'in, the da'i in Quhistan, to be slain by the hand of * Ahmad of Dunbavand. The murder of Husain of Qa'in was attributed to Hasan's son Ustad Husain, and Hasan ordered the execution both of his son and of Ahmad of Dunbavand. A year later, having learnt the true state of affairs, he put the 'Alid to death together with a son that he had.
Now Hasan-i-Sabbah had founded his cause and his law (nāmūs) upon asceticism, continence and 'the enjoying of righteousness and the forbidding of unrighteousness' , and during the 35 years that he dwelt in Alamut nobody drank wine openly nor put it in jars. Indeed such was his austerity that a certain person having played the flute in the castle he expelled him there from and would not re-admit him. Now his other son, whose name was Muhammad, was accused of drinking wine and he ordered him to be put to death. And he used to point to the execution of both his sons as a reason against any one's imagining that he had conducted propaganda on their behalf and had had that object in mind.
Since this was all published some 200+ years after the death of Hassan it is questionable if this should be included. I am putting this here so people can see the source of these tales. Richard-of-Earth ( talk) 23:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Is there a particular reason that the article uses "Rayy" instead of the standard "Ray"? The article Ray, Iran doesn't use "Rayy" at all and Rayy redirects to Ray, Iran. Some sources like Britannica use "Rayy" but this simply appears to be a choice in transliteration and is not a more ancient form of the name. Laval ( talk) 12:16, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Hassan Al-Sabah is Arab, and his lineage indicates this, and his period of activity was during the days of Arab civilization during the era of the Abbasid Caliphate. So why do you put his name and write next to it in Persian when the name was originally written in Arabic and you found this error in more than one paragraph?? This error must be corrected 109.107.224.196 ( talk) 10:48, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Hassan Al-Sabah is Arab
his period of activity was during the days of Arab civilization during the era of the Abbasid Caliphate.
So why do you put his name and write next to it in Persian when the name was originally written in Arabic and you found this error in more than one paragraph?? This error must be corrected
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Question: would it be more accurate to say from William of Tyre's accounts onward he was known as the Old Man of the Mountain? He seemed to have coined the term before Polo, and the page for Order of Assassins places Tyre as a greater influence. Don't know enough about the history to say which one was actually more influential and if saying it first matters more, just a thought. –Anon
I've read in several places (among them, Wikipedia itself) that the Hashish story was a myth, invented by Marco Polo. Can anyone doublecheck? --Anon.
-- HussaynKhariq 20:40, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-- TahitiB 21:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Marco Polo story of the garden is of course a legend with no basis in reality. The Wiki article really needs to be totally rewritten but I don't have time to do this at present so I've just modified it a bit to correct the more egregious errors. Anyone interested in the subject: please see my online book The Assassins of Alamut. Acampbell70 12:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Regarding HasanII, Isma'ili have a different take on his leadership, as an Isma'ili I would like to add our persective on him, to contrast the other side and maintain POV. However I think references to Hasan II, to be short since this article deals with Hassan I sabbah, any objections?--
86.146.0.135 00:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of helping out in this conversation, what follows is what Polo said, courtesy of Project Gutenberg. -- Rhwawn ( talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that Hassan-i Sabah ever said "Nothing is true; everything is permitted", or is that just something Burroughs made up? --Anon.
Isn't the phrase 'Nothing is true; everything is permitted' one used by Aleister Crowley's Thelema movement? ThePeg 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I am a little concerned about the fact that the "Life and Work" and "Ismaili Perspective" sections are separate from one another. By doing so, instead of creating a neutral point of view about Hassan-i-Sabbah, one instead creates two opposing and drastically different views about the subject. Furthermore, the "Ismaili Perspective" appears to be discredited by the the fact that that it is under a separate section from the "Life and Work", which makes it seems that the first section is correct and the Ismaili section is not. I know that this was not the objective, but that is just how it comes across. Perhaps something should be done to merge the two articles. Suggestions are welcome. -- R.suleman 02:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
A very good point. I was mystified by the tone of this article. The first half of this article seems to be an almost adoring portrait of what seems like an impressive man dedicated to a search for spiritual truth and honour (if a little harsh and austere here and there!). The second suggests he and his followers were just ruthless killers. Very disorientating. ThePeg 17:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This whole section seems dramatized and possibly plagarized. Also it contradicts other parts of the page when it says that they smoked Hashish. I would recommend getting rid of that section all together but someone may want to salvage it.-- 216.162.88.226 17:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The name "Hassan" is spelled in (at least) three different ways (Hassan, Hasan, Hæsæn), for no apparent reason (at least to me). Is that deliberate/proper?
[Might I suggest that one spelling be selected and the others, if at all valid, be mentioned in parentheses probably before the persian).]
With all due respect (and there is plenty, given the length of this article), this article is biased and its references are properly unmade. I have done a tiny part in correcting this; I may due further work on this article, or I may not. Take upon thine-on-self. Jpipkin42000 10:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The title for this article seems to be incorrect (although with the complete lack of reference, it's not the only thing wrong with it!) "Hassan-i-Sabah" makes it sound like it's one-word. But from the Persian, I can only assume that the correct spelling should be Hassen-i Sabbah, or Hassan-e Sabbah.
Google search:
So my assumptions seem to be correct that at the moment, the title needs changing, I propose that it should be changed to "Hassan Sabbah" or "Hassan-i Sabbah" -- Rayis 23:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Where are all the citations for the bold statements about Hassan-I Sabbah? There are, as mentioned, many contradictory statements in this article, none of which seem to be supported by any references that I can see. If the use of hashish by his followers is controversial or untrue, it would help to put it in a separate section under "legends concerning Hassan-I Sabbah" or something similar, and please, cite the information allowing one to say that these are just legends. The fact that similar statements regarding the man are made in different sections, but with different editorial spins on them, only helps to confound the reader. Hassan-I Sabbah is an interesting character; it would be nice to see an entry here that actually can help shed some light on him without these problems obscuring the entry to no end.
I'm going to be bold and dramatically trim the trivia section. I don't think we need to list every instance in which the name "Hassan-i Sabbah" is used in popular literature, movies, games, etc.... A book which names a character "Hassan-i Sabbah", but represents him in a historically inaccurate manner is not describing the Hassan-i Sabbah of this article, and thus it does not belong here. The same goes for video games. Basically, this section is just junking up the article and is very unencyclopedic. Per WP:TRIVIA, please feel free to re-add the information if it can be incorporated in the main body of the text. AlphaEta 04:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
It is clearly stated in most sources present in this article that his father was an Arab (and claimed Yemeni decent (as with the Early Life section. Why on Earth does it mention he is a Persian in the text? Is this more changing of historical alterations, inaccuracies and denial by Persian Nationalists for their racist agendas? Being born in Persia by no means makes him a Persian. As presented by such people in discussions with the case of Avicenna, Arabisation, language and generally taking up of a new ethnic identity halfway through life does not count for anything - a person's ethnicity counts on there geneological origin. So using that same logic, that makes Hassan-i Sabbah an Arab due to his father's (claimed) geneology, so I changed the opening intro. Please discuss here before changing if you disagree, as my claims are sources by the very sources those Persian Nationalists used for their ridiculous claims. Peace. SaSH ( talk) 11:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I can agree with your statement. Lewis, Bernard, The Assassins, a radical sect in Islam (New York, 1968) says: Hasan was born in Qumm, one of the first centres of Arab settlement in Persia. His father, a Twelver Shi'ite had come from Kufa in Iraq and was said to be of Yemini origin, a descant of the ancient Himyaritic kings of Southern Arabia. So, yes his father was an Arab.
-- H. 12:40 26 september 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 10:41, 26 September 2011 (UTC).
Sorry to disappoint you but the only "fact" here is that he was born in Persia to Iranian parents. His father's claim of being Yemenite doesn't change that. His mother was not jewish, but Persian, and his father was most probably Persian also. In those times it was popular to pass oneself as an Arab because of the tyranny the Arabs had introduced in those regions. And the only source of the Yemenite claim is from Encyclopedia Iranica, which most of this article is written from. Except of course parts where it says that Hassan-e Sabbah tried replacing Arabic with Persian in all his and his follower's writings. SomeGuy1122 ( talk) 04:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Removed entire "Legacy" section. The documentation was not from good primary sources. Most 'information' was speculation, POV, and some was propaganda. There is plenty of good source material in the "Reference" and "Further Reading" sections. Tapered ( talk) 10:21, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted recent unexplained deletions/changes. After some searching I found no reliable source stating Hassan as Persian. Therefore, I will be taking information from Lewis and Daftary sources stating Yemeni/Arab. If there are any concerns over this issue, I would expect a discussion before any changes to his ethnicity. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 21:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Per user:Aretemetic's latest edit using, Rashid ud-din Fazalellah 'Jame-ut-Tawrikh', pg. 1, appears to be a fake source. I seriously doubt that the Jami ut Tawrikh mentions Hassan-i Sabbah on page 1!!! -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 21:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
As it is clear he was born in Qom, And Qom is a city in Iran, and people who born in Iran are obviously Persian not Arabs, So he is Persian not Arab ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhviraf ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Claiming that Sabbah is either Arab or Persian is tendentious. Only known is that family was from Kufa and later moved to central Iran. Assuming that Kufan is Arab isn't much right, that city was inhabited by both Arabs and Persians (Abu Hanifa is most famous). We also know that his father claimed Yamanite origin. Note "claimed" and "Yamanite" (not Yemenite) in English book where actually don't mention Arab as Kansas bolded (Daftary, p. 123). Yamani is important figure in Shia eschatology and such claiming origins was common in past as much as today - many Persian Shia clerics like " Mousavis" claim origin from twelver Imams who were Arabs, but that doesn't make them Arab. The same goes for Hassan's father. He's Kufan for sure, but ethnic origins (Arab/Persian/other) are unknown. Both sides can insert some 6-7 sources about his being "Persian" or "Arab" to prove their pov, but such books deal little with his origins. Intro with "a Nizārī missionary" is enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.172.48 ( talk) 07:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
p.s. I also removed note that he was born in Persian Empire. In Buyyid case "empire" is problematic, and in Seljuk case "Persian". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.172.48 ( talk) 07:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Now this is funny, because I assumed precisely the same for you. It was my right because:
"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad al-Sabbah al-Himyarl, a Kufan claiming Himyarl Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, A Short History of the Ismailis, Edinburgh University Press, 1998, page 123 [5]
"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b. Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b. al- Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan claiming Himyari Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Ismailis in Medieval Muslim Societies, I. B. Tauris, 2005, page 127 [6]
"His father, ʿAli b. Moḥammad b. Jaʿfar al-Ṣabbāḥ al-Ḥemyari, a Kufan claiming Ḥemyari Yemenite origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Ḥasan Ṣabbāḥ, Encyclopedia Iranica, 2003/2012 [7]
"His father, ʿAli b. Moḥammad b. Ja'far al-Sabbah, a Kufan claiming Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Hassan-i Sabbah in Medieval Islamic Civilization: A-K, index, Taylor & Francis, 2006
"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b al-Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan claiming..." - Farhad Daftary, Mediaeval Isma'ili History and Thought, Cambridge University Press, 1996, page 187 [8]
Five scholary sources, same author, almost identhical sentence, and all without "Arab" word. So I still say edit by Kansas was wrong, it was surely done in good faith but now article version is tendentious. Since all works are avaliable online you can check that Mr. Daftary don't call Hassan as either Arab or Persian, he clearly states everywhere that little information is available on his early life. Some argued that he was Persian because Qom is Persian city and because he replaced Arabic with Persian as the religious language. This informations are correct but still not proof of his Persian ethnicity. Daftary on many places say "Persian Nizaris" and on page 187 (A Short History of the Ismailis) he speaks about Persian national motives in Hassan's revolt. Still, it isn't any proof of his Persian ethnicity either. Regarding Lewis' book The Assassins, fact that Qom was one of first centres of Arab settlement in Persia isn't any kind of proof that he was Arab as User:Hugoo_B concluded, neither is proof that it was Arab-only city. Here is quote from Iranica: [9]
"The population amounted to 50,000 inhabitants at the most and consisted of Persians and Arabs who had adopted the Persian of the time (Ebn Ḥawqal, p. 362; Drechsler, p. 198, n. 956) as their language and many social customs from the Persians, whose proportion was probably smaller than the Arabs."
Qom was mixed city of Persian-speaking Arabs and Persians, neither Arab as User:Hugoo_B claimed, or Persian-only as SomeGuy1122 stated. The same goes for Kufa, also mixed city. Lewis don't call Hassan as an Arab and that's only important. There isn't any scholar of Ismaili studies which call him either Arab or Persian, it simply can't be known for sure. As for non-professional books which do, "Arab" implies Muslim, and "Persian"/"Iranian" for geographic region. So disputing about ethnicity is childish.-- 109.165.172.48 ( talk) 20:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm going through and trying to research the sources behind a lot of these "citation needed"'s, and as I'm doing so I'm struck by the fact that many of the geographic boundaries are being described with modern state names, with "Iran" being used a synonym for "Persia." While there are many similarities between the two, the boundaries, both territorial and cultural, are not the same now as they were centuries ago and more modern history books tend to avoid this. Unless someone objects, as I go along I'm going to change anachronistic geography to what's in the history books (ie. Iran => Persia). The Cap'n ( talk) 18:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
First, I would like to apologize for our edit war, and any misunderstanding which may have caused you stress.
To my case:
I assure you, I am not adding inaccuracies. I am only making a clarification. Hassan-i Sabbah was a Persian Nizari Ismaili missionary. And... Born and raised in Persia, his father was believed to be a Kufan Arab claiming Yemenite origins. My only additions were made to clarify that Hassan was indeed Persian, as stated within the page, and that there is no absolute proof of his father being a Kufan Arab or proof of Yemenite origins. As the only record in mention is a 'possible' autobiography. One never proven to have ever been written by Hassan-i Sabbah. As I said, I am only adding a clarification. 1) He is a Persian (this is stated in the page) 2) His father was believed to be a Kufan Arab (as there is no proof of the source material being an actual autobiography) No other changes were made. Consider my fixes in your next edit. I will inform Favonian of the result in the next 24 hours, as he told me to speak to you first. I hope there will be no bias or anger due to my people or myself to influence your decision, and that you will honestly consider my changes as reasonable, harmless and not inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pahlavan Qahremani ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 15 August 2014
After reading all of this, I will summarize my response simply. None of these sources (the authors) are themselves reliable as they as well rely on the only account of Hassan-i Sabbah, which is his supposed autobiography. Aside from this, they often rely on what they learn from bias sources. The fact is, there is no PROOF that his father was a Kufan Arab, or that he was Yemenite. Only modern 'sources' have been referenced. Under the assumption we choose to agree on your decision on this being final, the first point of him being a "Persian Nizari Ismaili missionary" is still valid. Even stated in this very page. It is noted he was Persian (Early Life) and that he was a Nizari Ismaili missionary. All this does is combine the two in the brief description in the beginning. Also, it is often an issue in the West to refer to Muslims in general as Arab. Even well 'educated' sources. I can even quote well 'educated' authors whom refer to Rumi as a Turk or Arab, even though he was a Tajik Persian. This is not uncommon. The more you reference 20th Century Western Sources, the harder it is for me to take you seriously. In my experience, coming from a background of many historians, reading Western interpretation of Middle Eastern history is rarely that accurate. You almost want to applaud when it is. As I said, most OFTEN call any Muslim an Arab. Even Arabs do this a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.213.5 ( talk) 07:43, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
"Kansas bear" here does not speak out of any sourced material, but only from his own imaginings. He is one of many many others in Wikipedia who have gone around Persian related articles and put absolute lies and fabrications in them. He is an Eurocentric of some sort. If wikipedia had any credibility whatsoever or any administrators who weren't as biased as him then Wikipedia would not have been the unreliable joke it is now.
No historical or political articles in Wikipedia have any reliability whatsoever, as they as mostly written by those with an agenda to conceal the truth, or put their own delusions in them. As with this guy here. Wikipedia is a den of vipers, there is no saving it. In fact it is better that it has many editors like this individual so its credibility goes down further.
Hassan-e Sabbah being an Arab is an absolute joke, and any historian worth of salt would laugh at the idea. 81.170.232.49 ( talk) 10:35, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Can someone with knowledge of the subject and who also has a decent standard of English please take care of the incomprehensible google translation stuff in the article. 1812ahill ( talk) 03:16, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
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The title of the page is "Hassan-i Sabbah", but the very first sentence spells his name as "Hassan-e Sabbah" and claims that the spelling "Hassan-i" is incorrect. I'm a bit skeptical of that assertion: in my experience, transliterations are seldom correct/incorrect, just better or worse. Regardless, if true the article should be renamed. Can we please get a ruling on this from an authority on Persian? 98.110.113.134 ( talk) 23:48, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Recently a sentence about the sons of Hassan being killed was removed by an IP due to a lack of citation and it is "only alleged". I am sure there are citations to support these statements, but I am also sure they are rumors handed down. I looked for information on this and found the sons of Hassan were mentioned in the 14th century work Jami' al-tawarikh as translated by John Andrew Boyle titled The History Of The World Conqueror Vol II. Harvard University Press. This tells the complete story:
Hasan-i-Sabbah had two sons, one of whom was called Ustad Husain. Now in the castle of Alamut there was an *Alid called Zaid Hasani, who was secretly conducting propaganda on his own behalf and was on the point of putting an end to Hasan-i-Sabbah. And first he caused Husain of Qa'in, the da'i in Quhistan, to be slain by the hand of * Ahmad of Dunbavand. The murder of Husain of Qa'in was attributed to Hasan's son Ustad Husain, and Hasan ordered the execution both of his son and of Ahmad of Dunbavand. A year later, having learnt the true state of affairs, he put the 'Alid to death together with a son that he had.
Now Hasan-i-Sabbah had founded his cause and his law (nāmūs) upon asceticism, continence and 'the enjoying of righteousness and the forbidding of unrighteousness' , and during the 35 years that he dwelt in Alamut nobody drank wine openly nor put it in jars. Indeed such was his austerity that a certain person having played the flute in the castle he expelled him there from and would not re-admit him. Now his other son, whose name was Muhammad, was accused of drinking wine and he ordered him to be put to death. And he used to point to the execution of both his sons as a reason against any one's imagining that he had conducted propaganda on their behalf and had had that object in mind.
Since this was all published some 200+ years after the death of Hassan it is questionable if this should be included. I am putting this here so people can see the source of these tales. Richard-of-Earth ( talk) 23:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Is there a particular reason that the article uses "Rayy" instead of the standard "Ray"? The article Ray, Iran doesn't use "Rayy" at all and Rayy redirects to Ray, Iran. Some sources like Britannica use "Rayy" but this simply appears to be a choice in transliteration and is not a more ancient form of the name. Laval ( talk) 12:16, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Hassan Al-Sabah is Arab, and his lineage indicates this, and his period of activity was during the days of Arab civilization during the era of the Abbasid Caliphate. So why do you put his name and write next to it in Persian when the name was originally written in Arabic and you found this error in more than one paragraph?? This error must be corrected 109.107.224.196 ( talk) 10:48, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Hassan Al-Sabah is Arab
his period of activity was during the days of Arab civilization during the era of the Abbasid Caliphate.
So why do you put his name and write next to it in Persian when the name was originally written in Arabic and you found this error in more than one paragraph?? This error must be corrected