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Many view the term "ultra" Orthodox as pejorative, and prefer "haredi". Should this be incorporated into the article, or at least some mention be made of it? Jayjg 03:31, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Most "ultra-orthodox" Jews prefer to be called charedi (or haredi). If you'd actually read the article, Jayjg, you would have found that haredi is mentioned in the first few lines. Haredi redirects to this page. I agree completely that Ultra-Orthodox is pejorative, but I don't think consensus can be found to move this page to Haredi Judaism. JFW | T@lk 07:52, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Here is the section of the SCJ FAQ that I was referring to. It contains the quote you mentioned, but the quote is just plain wrong. Some contributors to the FAQ like to say that all Orthodox Jews are basically the same, and observe Judaism at the same level of observance. Not so; in fact, many Haredi Jews deride other Orthodox Jews as not observant enough, or even as heretical. The codes of Jewish law and responsa followed by many Hasidic Jews are contain many rules viewed as unnecessary stringincies by other Orthodox Jews. Who is right and who is wrong? That is a matter of opinion; but there is no disputing that significant differences exist. RK 17:47, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
Here is a summary of the many ways that Orthodox Jewish groups can differ. Diverse attitudes among Orthodox Jews, compiled by Rabbi Saul J. Berman
Now that I've thought it, I'd like to make two points that may help us phrase things appropriately in this article. (1) Most non-Orthodox Jews do not use the phrase "Haredi Jews" or "Torah Jews"; they only use the phrase "ultra-Orthodox Jews". Many non-Orthodox Jews (religious or secular) don't even know what the word Haredi refers to. The phrase ultra-Orthodox, for better or worse, is more commonly used in the USA. (2) At the same time, many non-Orthodox Jews sometimes do use the term "ultra-Orthodox" in a perjorative way. That isn't to say this is the primary way that they use it (it isn't) but it used in this way. I believe that somehow the article should incorporate both of these points. RK 01:41, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
Should this article be re-named and reworded as Haredi Judaism, and re-directed from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism? As has been stated before, regardless of its common usage in English, the term Ultra-Orthodox is pejorative, and not used by Haredi Jews to describe themselves. I note that the Latter Day Saints article refers to the members as "Latter Day Saints", not "Mormons", as they prefer, even though they are commonly called Mormons in English. Similarly, "Quakers" re-directs to "the Religious Society of Friends", their preferred but not common name. People looking for Moonies are re-directed to the Unification Church. We don't see articles on "Mohamedans" or "Mohametans" or even "Moslems", but rather "Muslims", as they prefer. Isn't it time this article was cleaned up as well? Jayjg 22:08, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Having seen an edit today where "Mormon" was changed to "LDS", I was reminded of this unfinished business. A few final words on the subject. The term Haredi is much older than "ultra-Orthodox", having been used by the Haredi to described themselves as early as 1900, and used officially in the names of communal groups by 1920. As for "ultra" being pejorative, a quick google finds it used pejoratively in this context:
I am a Jewish woman, and one who could be called by that favorite ever-so-subtle pejorative used by much of the media – "ultra-Orthodox". http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/467
"Ultra-Orthodox" is a pejorative label applied to more conservative elements in Orthodoxy; it is not a label those Jews use themselves. If they were to use a label, it would likely be "Charedi" or "Chassidic" or "Yeshivish". http://www.joi.org/cgi-bin/bigtalker/discussion.cgi?forum=6&discussion=38
In my community there are many self-help organizations supported and staffed exclusively by Orthodox volunteers - primarily the sort of commonly described by the fashionable pejorative - "ultra-Orthodox." http://www.clal.org/e68.html
In other contexts:
My impression is that the so-called "ultra-Darwinians" (to use Gould and Eldredge's pejorative expression http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200003/0091.html
The other side of the 'High Table' are quickly labelled with the pejorative 'Ultra-Darwinist', although how anyone can be 'beyond Darwin' remains elusive. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0471303011/104-5082128-7299966?v=glance
But in the practice of journalism, one should know better than to apply a pejorative label, the label of extremism ("ultra-"), to members of one political faction but never to its opposite number. http://lists.bostonradio.org/pipermail/boston-radio-interest/2003-October/000027.html
And even on Wikipedia:
Ultra-nationalists are extreme nationalists or patriots. The term has a clearly pejorative meaning, and is particularly used for those ardently opposed to international cooperation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-nationalist
Having heard no other objections, it would seem to make sense to move this article to more neutral terminology, following the Wikipedia standard. Any other discussion on the subject before getting started? Jayjg 05:07, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It seems the debate has been tentatively resolved. As per Jayjg's request on my talk page, I'm moving this page to Haredi Judaism. Most Ultra-Orthodox Jews, when asked, would describe themselves as Torah Jews or Haredim. This is lehavdel analogous to the LDS, whose in-house terminology is followed on Wikipedia (instead of calling them Mormons). In case of objections, please discuss below before making unilateral moves. JFW | T@lk 22:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think this is a bit of a whitewash:
It does not seem to me that there is "reconciliation and merging" except in the fringes. The overall situation is that indicated by the rise of Shinui and similar groups. The secular public are just as afraid of "Haredi domination" as ever, and the Haredim are no more compromising than before on things that matter to them. Of course there are tons of different opinions on this, but the opinion in the article is just one and should not be presented as more than that. -- Zero 04:03, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
A very typical example is described in this article. -- Zero 02:27, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
As a Haredi myself, I agree completely with Zero that this is a whitewash, there are some trends of social reconciliation between Haredi Jews and the Israeli society, but there are many polarizing trends that outweigh them (e.g. rise of Shinui, the resistance to any public encouragement of men to leave the Yeshiva / Kollel and join the workforce). Rule of thumb: while the Haredi community, or some elements within it, might be willing to participate in social compromise, religious or theological compromise is out of the question. -- GrifiN 12:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that something about these developments should be introduced into the article. Many Haredim believe that if you want to be a good Jew, then you need t spend all of your time in Torah study. But in the real world this is not a good choice for all people; not all people have the desire or constitution for non-stop lifelong Torah study. So what to do with these people? Have them leave Orthodox Judaism? Or perhaps this alternative:
My goodness, the fact that someone can't remain in yeshiva doesn't make him a heretic! These programs and projects have been extant for a long time, initially for young men with mental disabilities. However, even the "reactionary leadership" that Prof. Assaf is ranting at has approved of programs that combine vocational training and yeshiva studies, and this article is at least 3 years too late. You can make a brief mention of the phenomenon, and provide a footnote (like this [1]) to the news article, but please keep it brief, and without direct quotes from prof. Assaf. JFW | T@lk 14:38, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This should be a featured article.
Something I'm left wondering if anybody can find any info on.
The article mentions that the original number of haredi draft exemptions was 400 in 1948.
Can anybody find out what the number was when Begin lifted the numerical limit, and what the haredi population of Israel (in strict numbers, not percentages) was at each point? -- Penta 19:31, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
small point: on the page, Zionists are referred to as the Haredi's former "persecutors", and in the context of the aftermath of the Holocaust! I think a milder term would be more appropriate.
maybe opponets-- Truthaboutchabad 23:56, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We need numbers even if it is just estimates.
This sentence from the opening doesn't quote sources. It doesn't mention which customs. This is especially apalling given the tremendous range and variety of customs among Charedim. Even in regards to dress.
Many customs of both Chareidi and Modern Orthodox Jews are recent. Many date back to as late as the 20th century. Most come from much earlier sources, though customs have risen and developed all throughout Jewish History.
Shouldn't this sentence be removed? HKT 23:57, 4 May 2005
This passage is a mix of POV and inaccuracy. (1.) ...the law required that children receive an education, and parents also insisted on an education... others managed to find a balance between the religious and secular needs of their communities through Conservative Judaism, etc. Conservative Judaism is unnecessary for allowing a secular education. You don't have to, for example, remove synagogue partitions and allow driving to synagogue on the Sabbath, in order to keep congregants who merely desire secular education for their children. Looks to me like POV. (2.) Conservative Judaism was virtually non-existent before WWI; it didn't really affect the Jewish communal dynamic until the twenties. (Though Zecharias Frankel is considered a forebear of Conservative Judaism, and JTS was founded in 1886, and Solomon Schechter began to revitalize JTS in 1902, the movement never really began to take off in the community at large until the twenties.) (3.) This frustrated many religious leaders, who were unaccustomed to the freedoms the United States offered, which often came at the cost of their own authority.?! Which religious leaders? Who says they were frustrated? Where's the source? Also looks to me like POV. I thought that many people qualified to be religious leaders were frustrated at being unable to find positions as such. (4.) ... and parents also insisted on an education as a means of getting ahead in life. Hmm: "Getting ahead in life." That sounds just like the phrase many parents would use, but then again, they usually have a strong POV. Is "life" universally defined by salary and academic standing? How about "... as a means of preparation for future financial security." I know that the "getting ahead" phrase refers to the parents' POV, but I think that it's more appropriate to keep the POV out (or otherwise expressly labeled as such). (5.) A few began to lay the foundations of the Jewish revival movement known as the Teshuvah Movement. What is clasically known as the "Teshuvah Movement" didn't begin until the 1960's. In the early twentieth century, the "few" (actually much more than a few) were laying the foundations for, and building up, mainstream Orthodox communities and institutions. (6.) Some left; others managed to find a balance between the religious and secular needs of their communities through Conservative Judaism and later, Modern Orthodoxy. The Orthodox European emigree rabbis (and any US born Orthodox rabbis) very rarely took up leadership posts in non-Orthodox Jewish congregations. "Some left" is true. Some stayed and took up other occupations is also true. Some stayed and remained functioning in the Orthodox rabbinate. A few left to lead Reform congregations, though the vast majority of Reform leaders were never Orthodox leaders. Hardly any joined the (then lilliputian) Conservative Movement (though, beginning in the twenties, the sons of many Orthodox rabbis became Conservative rabbis). (7.) ...through Conservative Judaism and later, Modern Orthodoxy. If I'm not mistaken, what is commonly known as Modern Orthodoxy (the American brand of it, that is) also began to grow during the twenties.
Sorry that the objections were a bit out of sequence. HKT 00:04, 7 May 2005
Thanks for the polite yet impersonal preset message. Just kidding. Anyway, I followed your advice about signing on. Maybe I'll get to revamping the article later. ;-) HKT 22:13, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
The phrase " a person should be "a Jew in the home, and a mentsch (human being) in the street." was indeed a popular aphorism of the time, and mistakenly attributed to Mendelsohn. I can't remember who actually said it, and have been unable to track it down so far. Jayjg (talk) 23:13, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
It was popular enough for S.R. Hirsch to call the perfect Jew Mensch-Yisroel in response to this aphorism. JFW | T@lk 23:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
HKT ( talk · contribs): your translation of "haredi" is not more literal, it is simply less accurate in this case. According to the Even-Shoshan dictionary, "hared" means either tremble or fearful. See for example Genesis 27:33 and Shmuel-1 28:5. In these cases, as in the case of Haredi Judaism, translating as "fearful" is more accurate. OwenX 12:14, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the entire paragraph beginning "Many members of the Haredi community still ...." is out of place in the beginning of the article. It is simply a pejorative -- oh, look, how quaint, sort of like the Amish, but Jewish...
It should be moved much lower down, and replaced with a sincere discussion of who the Charedim are and what they believe. This business about how some believe Halacha was flexible and then fossilized should be addressed rather than glossed-over yet left as fact. frumtech
I could find no online support for this source, which sounds familiar but appears to be paraphrased from a different statement: "American Jews know how to make kiddush, but not how to make havdalah". Again, I don't know the source of that quote. If no source can be found it may be anecdotal and insufficient to support claims as this article does. JFW | T@lk 17:31, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Haredi is just an Israeli term for Hasidim and Lithuanian Orthodox who are almost Hasidim...what do you ppl think of combining Haredi and Hasidim on Wikipedia? I don't know how to do it so someone else do so :)
Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
From an outsiders perspective, I don't see this as a contradiction/paradox at all, if the main obstacles for the spiritual well-being are the other religious practices and leaders. In fact I think its non NPOV to call it such if this is the real reasoning of the Haredi.
It is not a paradox. Loving all Jews does not mean "loving all Jewish organisations", especially when these are - from the Haredi point of view - simply expressions of institutionalised heresy (not my words, see Shimon Schwab). JFW | T@lk 21:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
It's also an observor bisased paragraph. The bias is that it reflects English speaking Kiruv oriented experience, but not necessarily the typical situation in reality. In most of Heradi society, particularly among the Chasidim (who are by far the most numerous Heradim) Harkachas Rishoim is as big a mitzvah as kiruv, and much safer for the average Baal Habeis. They simply want nothing to do with modernim at all. In English speaking circles, particularly the Aish Hatorah/Chabad heavy crowds, that there is a mitzvah Harkachas rishoim is not often said, and kiruv is raised way above its signifigance in the broader Haredi world, sometimes being the point of everything they do. Illistrating a big diference is the comment above, "Loving all Jews does not mean "loving all Jewish organisations,." That is, of course, tru; but not germane to a discussion of Heradi because they never accepted to love ALL Jews, only al FAITHFUL Jews. As to the others, thery go by the Beis YOsef on Tur, "If there is a member of the community who wants to lead others astray it is a mitzvah to hate him and obstruct him in every way;" or the SHulchan Aruch on the laws of mourning, where if ones relative who is not shomer shabbos dies, one is required to put on Shabbos clothes and hold a celevration that an enemy of the L-rd has been destroyed. TOtally different outlook between the English speakers (who are themselves largely Baalei teshuvah) and the Hebrew and espescially Yiddish speaking people. 88.152.2.248 10:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Could someone who knows put something in the lifestyle section about what ultra-orthodox jews do for fun. I'm not joking. I'm really curious. Do ultra-orthodox jews dance, play sport and listen to music?
I can shine some light on this one. I have family that is orthodox and I know what they do. I find almost everything that they do absurd. Dancing generaly does not happen, because men and women are not allowed to dance together. Some orthodox jews don't play sports becasue their schedule does not allow it; they spend a great deal of their day in the yeshiva, escpecialy in Israel. In addition, because they have to wear the fancy get up and women are not allowed to wear short sleeves or pants, they don't have the attire for sports. As for music, most Orthodox Jews will listen to music, just not that of a woman. This is because they won't listen to a woman singing.
It's just like the letter from the Hasmonean King said to the King of Sparta when asked the same question. "My people has one pastime. We learn the TOrah." Seriously that is what they do. It's also fairly common to enjoy cigarettes with friends and chatting, though usually the topic turns to "talking in learning," as they say. Also, the rituals provide outlets. Shabbos meals, wedding, briss's, this guy is having a kiddish, time to go to the tische, the b'datz called a hafgunah, etc. But at these events the topic turns to learning all the time. 88.152.2.248 10:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this article does quite enough to show how "Haredi" Judaism is different from Orthodoxy in general: certainly much of the historical material could serve equally well for both. It does distinguish it from "Modern Orthodoxy", but that is a comparatively recent phenomenon.
Isn't the real point this? Most countries have a set of official Orthodox institutions, embodied in a Chief Rabbinate, such as the United Synagogue in Great Britain and the dual Chief Rabbinate in Israel; and in Israel someone who is Orthodox in this sense is called "dati" (and need not be "Modern Orthodox"). A "haredi" is someone who belongs to independent congregations to the right of these, on the ground that the official institutions are not Orthodox enough. (Hence the term "ultra-Orthodox".)
As for the history, there is a sort of precursor in S. R. Hirsch, who led an "Austritt" (secession) from the official Jewish community in Germany. The point there, however, is that that community was not exclusively Orthodox. Hirsch is therefore claimed as a spiritual ancestor by both centrist Orthodoxy (whether "dati" or Modern Orthodox) and by Haredi Judaism. It begs too many questions to try to classify older authorities such as the Vilna Gaon as "Haredi" or not.
The article needs to go into much more detail about the various developments that have resulted in today's Haredi Judaism, namely:
1. the Hasidic movement;
2. the yeshivah movement starting at Volozhyn;
3. the Chatam Sofer;
4. S. R. Hirsch and the distinction between Gemeinde and austrittende Orthodoxy (and analogous movements elsewhere, such as Adath Israel in England);
5. the formation of Agudat Israel in Poland;
6. the secession of the Haredim from the official Jewish community of Mandatory Palestine (and the formation of the Edah Haredit).
I don't have the knowledge to give all the facts and dates about the above; can someone else have a go?
Another difference worth mentioning is that, while all Orthodox Jews try to obey Jewish law, Haredim also give great weight to "daat Torah", meaning the wisdom of their leaders on what is a "Torah view", even on matters that are halachically neutral. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
See discussion at Talk:Orthodox_Judaism Kari Hazzard ( T | C) 14:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This term is just so confusing from the perspective of an outsider. Why not meger this with 'orthodox judaism'? Haredi is just the Israeli version of 'frum'. Do we have an article on Frum Judaism? Chavatshimshon 21:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The Present Day section mentions Israel, USA and UK. How about including other chareidi communiites: Antwerp, Zurich, South America? Redaktor 16:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
A list of the major yeshivos would be in place here. Anyone willing to start? Redaktor 16:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a little misunderstanding of a big part of the old status quo in Israel. It was not only between Harediim and the State but between all the religious groups and the State. The Chief Rabbinate was not given to the Haredim but to the religious Zionists. As well as IDF rabbinate. The part of the Haredim was mostly the exemption from military service. So this should be changed. I am waiting for other opinion before changing the text. Benjil 22:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
The article contains nothing about the History of Sephardic Haredim. All the information about the Askhenazi Haredim emerging as a result of European enlightenment doesn't seem to apply to them. Do the Sephardic Haredim have different traditions compare to the Azkhenazi ones? Also, as there are a substantial number of Sephardic Haredim in Israel(just look at Shas, I don't think that this section should be overlooked.
The problem is that most of the terms we use are not applicable to Sephardim. Reform, COnservative, Modern Orthodox, Heradi, etc. Most religious Sephardim if one had to squish them into these artificial terms would be theologically Heradi (I once had a cab driver quote me entire sections of Reishis Chokma) and in practical terms liberal Modern Orthodox. (He was not wearing a yarmulke while doing it, and their was some weird ISraeli-blasheme pop on the radio) The terms weren't created to describe them, so they don't fit. 88.152.2.248 10:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Having only recently viewed this, I was surprised to see the assumption that Jews of what would be referred to in this article as a "Haredi" viewpoint would actually use that term for themselves.
In the Israeli media, including the Haredi media, the term is used. However it is almost never used in the U.S. What would be called the Haredi community in Israel calls itself many things; most often "B'nai Torah" [sing: Ben Torah], "Frum", or even the colloquial "yeshivish" for the non-CHassisic groups - but never Haredi.
I see from reading here that people like to ask for sources; admittedly this is not an easy task here. Instead I can only buttress the claim with two items: 1) The English Haredi-type media never uses the term for US Jews, ever, and 2) I have travelled and interacted with almost every major Orthodox Jewish community in the U.S.
In summary, while the ideas of Haredi may exist outside of Israel, the term itself does not.
How do I get this amendation inserted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuvia613 ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Eight months later, how do I get somebody to address this point? It is a huge inaccurate impression that any Jews in the USA refer to themselves as Haredim. The word is not used. If further evidence is needed, one can listen to the entire transcript of each year's Agudath Israel of the US convention speeches and there is not a single use of the word Haredi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.33.220.162 ( talk) 06:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
First, apologies for not signing, I just found the cheatsheet . . . However your answer is incorrect, and I did not actually expect a counter-claim, so I did not previously provide more details or support. These points are not in any meaningful order.
Haredi is a term coined by persons not of that community to refer to segments of the Jewish population in Israel. The Israeli "Haredi" community has accepted that moniker for use in describing itself. It is, however, and as of now remains, an Israeli term with no real meaning or definition to other communities outside of Israel. Unless somebody has some pretty strong proofs that all the items I listed are incorrect, I plan to incorporate this change into the article after sufficient time for responses. Tuvia613 ( talk) 08:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in responding. Indeed the non-Israel communities are similar to the Haredi communities. I am not sure how you would label them, as they do not grant themselves an easy label like Haredi. They refer to themselves under a variety of titles, such as Torah Observant, Bnei Torah, Frum, etc. Keep in mind the communities have no need to indentify themselves to outside groups, so scholar -- or online encyclopedia -- is left with bit of a problem. It does not though obviate the need to make the edit so it is clear that Haredi is an Israeli -- as opposed to Jewish -- term. Tuvia613 ( talk) 07:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
There was an online magazine called "Edah" (or HaEdah", I forget which), that was definitely Modern Orthodox and had articles from people like Marc B. Shapiro and Menachem Kellner. It has since shut down, but some of the files are still available. Obviously this had no connection with the Edah Charedit. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 16:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
"Group of Haredim observing the Shabbat in New York City" -- it looks like they are observing Sikhs, not Shabbat. — Nricardo ( talk) 17:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe that this comment was actually was not making a general claim that innovation is assur, it's pretty clear from his own shutim and interpretations of the gemara that the chatam sofer and other early chareidim believed in some level of halakhic innovation and evolution. If I recall, it was actually a somewhat witty response to those reforms who referred to the biblical prophecy that there will be so much grain that the old will be discarded to make room for the new. I don't think it should be assumed that the the early chareidim believed a torah pasuk taken out of context would constitute a halakhic basis for anything. Avraham ( talk) 05:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
As I understand Hasidic Judaism and Haredi Judaism are two different groups. Why does these two articles have the same picture [2] then?
-- 84.202.208.245 ( talk) 22:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
It's clear this one needs discussion rather than continued reverts. Discussion should invoke relevant policies and guidelines, naturally. In the first instance, as my edit summary indicated, WP:HEBREW indicates use of sav only for topics that relate primarily to a particular subset of Diaspora Jewry. The majority of Haredim live in Israel, and for topics relating to modern Israel WP:HEBREW indicates tav. It doesn't matter whether, within Israel, there are more Ashkenazi Haredim than Sephardi Haredim, as neither group is part of Diaspora Jewry. In general, it won't be relevant that individual editors hold certain opinions about usage that emerge from their own personal practices or experiences (e.g., "go to Holon and listen to people pray"). Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 13:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Calm down, children! May I suggest the following:
1. It was scholarly convention (e.g. in the Jewish Encyclopedia) to use Sephardi spelling for pan-Jewish topics long before the foundation of the state of Israel; so stuff about "Zionism" is beside the point (but then as a Sephardi myself I would say that, wouldn't I?)
2. Where a word refers to something applying to Judaism in general, we should use Sephardi spelling ("Sukkot", not "Sukkos"; "shacharit", not "shachris")
3. Where it refers to something exclusively Ashkenazi, especially a proper name, Ashkenazi spelling is preferable ("misnagdim", not "mitnaggedim"); but even then titles of books should probably be in Sephardi, as all Jews may read them ("Shev Shema'tata", not "Shev Shmaytsa")
4. These distinctions should be applied according to the particular word, not according to the article ("Sukkot" does not become "Succos" in an article about an Ashkenazi yeshivah that breaks up for that holiday; Zvi Hirsch Chayes does not become "Sebi Hirsh Ħayyot" in an article about a Sephardi rabbi influenced by him).
This doesn't help us decide about Ashkenazi Haredi institutions in Israel, e.g. should it be "Edah Haredit" or "Eidoh Chareidis"? And there is a further issue about pre-modern rabbis with Biblical names ("Moses", "Mosheh" or "Moishe" ben whatever). But we can't solve everything at once!
What do you all think? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 16:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
for words, topics, etc concerning secular jewish topics or the state of israel directly the sephardic pronunciation should be used. when discussing religious matters (it should never be written chatam sofer instead of chasam sofer! never! nor should it ever be written mitnagged or chassidut because these are both insulting spellings to the movements and simply incorrect as no one used them before 50 years ago). an article regarding "haredi judaism" or "hasidic judaism" should take care to use only the ashkenazic pronunciation for all terms, unless those terms denote specifically israeli or sephardic concepts. thus sukkos should always be spelled sukkos because it is of religious significance. likewise edah hachareidis should always be like that way instead of edah hareidit. maybe it would be a best idea to use a neutral spelling such as sukkoth or shavuoth. wikipedia should provide factual information and not tinge it in any way or another. thus wikipedia should not do anything to support a particular pronunciation over the other. 68.50.99.248 ( talk) 18:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)jonah
Sir Myles is partially correct and partially incorrect in his assertion that prior to the "modern" Hebrew of Israel, publication such as the Encyclopedia Judaica used Sephardic transliterations. The confusion stems from the fact that technically he is correct -- but those transliterations are from actual Sephardic usage, not the spoken Hebrew of today, which is a combination of various sources. The Enc Judaica would write the holiday of Sukkot/Sukkos as "Sukkoth", not using either Sukkot or Sukkos. Tuvia613 ( talk) 08:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The picture of Neturei Karta in this article does not represent anyone but a tiny, little group of idiots. It is like portraying Tali Fahima as an average Israeli, or portraying Osama Bin Laden as an average Arab. It is a grave distortion of the truth that should not be allowed on Wikipedia. Nomo, I request you to carefully read [ [3]]. You will understand that the idiot pictured here (and who run the site www.nkusa.org) are none but a small group of nearly 'excommunicated' weirdos, even within Neturei Karta. -- Piz d'Es-Cha ( talk) 06:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
You are misinformed. The fringe element who demonstrated at Trafalgar Sq were denounced by the whole of Chareidi Jewry and have been excommunicated from chareidi synagogues. -- Redaktor ( talk) 16:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
What you suspect is irrelevant. They not accepted as part of the Haredi community. -- Redaktor ( talk) 17:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe what I am reading! If the chareidi rabbinates declare individuals to be non-haredi, that is definitive. The opinion of a Wikipedia editor has no standing in the matter. -- Redaktor ( talk) 18:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm inclined to think that Piz d'Es-Cha may have a point on this one. The Neturei Karta are an extremely controversial group that has gotten a lot of negative press for views and actions not necessarily representative of Haredi Jews as a whole. It might be more appropriate to have a picture of a less controversial group of people reflected in the visual that represents Haredi Jews in the article. I don't think it matters whether they are or are not Haredi Jews and I don't see a need to address the question. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 03:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The article says:
"In Germany the opponents of Reform rallied to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, and later (in the 20th century) formed the Agudas Israel movement. In Poland Jews true to traditional values gathered under the banner of Agudas Shlumei Emunei Yisroel, which later evolved into the East-European arm of Agudas Yisroel."
But the article on World Agudath Israel says that it was founded in Poland in 1912.
Isn't the article confusing Agudas Israel with the Hirschian congregation Adath Israel? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 15:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
-- Redaktor ( talk) 21:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
This issue has been brought up before. I appeal to the resident editors to maintain their intellectual honesty.
Chareidi Judaism is said here to be a "form" of Orthodox Judaism when in actual fact "Chareidim" is more accurately but a Classical Hebrew term now used in Modern Israel to refer to Orthodox Jews as a whole with political and demographic connotations. My qualms with Chareidi Judaism gaining its own entry are not with these connotations, rather that it an alternate title for Orthodox Jews much like Frum or Heimisher Jews.
Furthermore, the title of this article which only describes Orthodox Jews is misleading as Chareidi Judaism is not at all considered to be a Jewish religious denomination distinct from or alike to Orthodox Judaism, Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism and others, nor as as a Jewish ethnic division with its own set of minhagim like Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews and others, or an ideological movement like Religious Zionism though the term is generally used to set Orthodox Jews apart from Religious Zionist Jews.
I propose this article which in essence about Orthodox Jews and Judaism, be merged into Orthodox Judaism where the term "Chareidi" will be given as an alternate term in modern-day Israel and now worldwide for Orthodox Jews. -- ephix ( talk) 12:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
(arbitrary break in discussion)
Thi merger proposal seems absolute dead in the water, I'm afraid, Ephix. I'm going to remove the merge tags because for cultural and space issues, it's not gojng to happen. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Strongly oppose. We've already got articles on Modern Orthodoxy, Open Orthodoxy etc. I see nothing wrong with having the present article together with these, and then an article on "Orthodoxy" as an umbrella term for them all. I don't even see any reason for changing it from "Haredi Judaism" to "Haredi": we've already got " Hasidic Judaism".
There may be some Haredim who regard their own stance as the only genuine Orthodoxy around, and Modern Orthodoxy as an impossible balancing act. But to merge the articles is to concede without discussion that this is factually true; whereas it is surely one point of view to be recorded among others.
It's true that "Orthodox" is fatally ambiguous. In one sense a synagogue (say the United Synagogue in Great Britain) is "Orthodox" if it officially follows the rules of halachah, however lax the private lives of its members; and a member will describe himself as "Orthodox" in the sense of not being Reform, even if he then admits that he is not very "Orthodox" in the sense of observant. In another sense you could say that a synagogue is only genuinely "Orthodox" if full observance is required from everyone, and that is what is meant by the "Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations". Even this strict sense, however, is wider than "Haredi", as it includes the Hirschians.
My vote is for leaving everything exactly as it is. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 10:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
While it's true that "Orthodox" does not mean "Haredi", even if the word "Ortodoxi" has come to mean "Haredi" in Israeli slang, it's equally true that Haredim are not something separate from Orthodox Jews, but rather one type of Orthodox Jew.
That being the case, I think this article should be renamed from "Haredi Judaism" to "Haredi". Because there's no such thing as "Haredi Judaism" as distinct from "Orthodox Judaism". It's merely a subtype.
For the record, I'm beginning to harbor a suspicion that this is essentially what ephix had in mind, but if it was, it wasn't explained very well. Because there are really two serious options, and that's to rename this article "Haredi" or to delete this article and transfer its content to a subsection within the Orthodox Judaism article. - LisaLiel ( talk) 18:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
"...there is no Sephardic Judaism article here on wikipedia": oh isn't there? Funny, I wrote most of it! (though maybe you think it should be renamed "Sephardic laws and customs"). That article does stress that "Sephardic Judaism" is not a denomination, but a cultural tradition. There can be a similar caveat here. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 09:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Vast majority against. Removing templates from pages. Issue closed, as far as I'm concerned. -- Piz d'Es-Cha ( talk) 09:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
While Haredi Jews are not particularly known for their interfaith efforts, it should perhaps be noted that Haredis and Roman Catholics share many common positions on the topics of Abortion, Contraception and Euthanasia. Rabbi Yehuda Levin, who is a Haredi, has for instance participated in several joint efforts with Catholic leaders in order to oppose Abortion. [5] ADM ( talk) 19:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Officially, divorce is permitted under halacha, and entire sections of Maimonedes, The Tur, The Shulchan Aruch, and tens of thousands of pages of post-Shulchan Aruch responsa are dedicated to it. There is no sweeping prohibition per se against divorce as there is in the Catholic religion. There may be times where it is counseled against, for the sociological reasons that divorce can be extremely destructive to children and extended families, but divorces happen all the time (unfortunately). Please do not confuse a respect for the sanctity of marriage and a desire to keep families together with a religious doctrine against divorce. Thank you. -- Avi ( talk) 23:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
One more thing: I'll give you a short list of really representative Haredi rabbis. Check the following list, which is a random quickly comprised list of some prominent living and deceased Haredi rabbis.
Now if you go and read all that these rabbis wrote about issues such as abortion and divorce, and any other issue on your mind, then you'll have a clearer understanding of the matters involved. These are all rabbis who are recognized by virtually the entire Haredi world as being important leaders of immense posture. Some examples of rabbis who belong to the Hardal world, which combines Religious Zionism and Modern Orthodoxy (sociologically, they are closer to the Modern Orthodox world) with halachic observance on a higher level than the regular Modern Orthodox, see for example Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, Rabbi Dov Lior, and also this Rabbi Yehuda Levin you mentioned (I think). -- Piz d'Es-Cha ( talk) 23:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Again the recent posts seem all to be about similarities between Haredi Jews and other religions, not about joint work between them.
One question. Jewish and Muslim organisations sometimes do establish joint lobbying groups for the defence of shechitah/halal. Some people involved in these may be dayanim of broad-brush "Orthodox" organisations, who are personally Haredi in the sense that they attended relevant yeshivot and look and dress like Haredim; but Haredi groups and organisations as such are not generally involved. Does this count as "Haredi inter-faith contact" or not? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 12:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Many view the term "ultra" Orthodox as pejorative, and prefer "haredi". Should this be incorporated into the article, or at least some mention be made of it? Jayjg 03:31, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Most "ultra-orthodox" Jews prefer to be called charedi (or haredi). If you'd actually read the article, Jayjg, you would have found that haredi is mentioned in the first few lines. Haredi redirects to this page. I agree completely that Ultra-Orthodox is pejorative, but I don't think consensus can be found to move this page to Haredi Judaism. JFW | T@lk 07:52, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Here is the section of the SCJ FAQ that I was referring to. It contains the quote you mentioned, but the quote is just plain wrong. Some contributors to the FAQ like to say that all Orthodox Jews are basically the same, and observe Judaism at the same level of observance. Not so; in fact, many Haredi Jews deride other Orthodox Jews as not observant enough, or even as heretical. The codes of Jewish law and responsa followed by many Hasidic Jews are contain many rules viewed as unnecessary stringincies by other Orthodox Jews. Who is right and who is wrong? That is a matter of opinion; but there is no disputing that significant differences exist. RK 17:47, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
Here is a summary of the many ways that Orthodox Jewish groups can differ. Diverse attitudes among Orthodox Jews, compiled by Rabbi Saul J. Berman
Now that I've thought it, I'd like to make two points that may help us phrase things appropriately in this article. (1) Most non-Orthodox Jews do not use the phrase "Haredi Jews" or "Torah Jews"; they only use the phrase "ultra-Orthodox Jews". Many non-Orthodox Jews (religious or secular) don't even know what the word Haredi refers to. The phrase ultra-Orthodox, for better or worse, is more commonly used in the USA. (2) At the same time, many non-Orthodox Jews sometimes do use the term "ultra-Orthodox" in a perjorative way. That isn't to say this is the primary way that they use it (it isn't) but it used in this way. I believe that somehow the article should incorporate both of these points. RK 01:41, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
Should this article be re-named and reworded as Haredi Judaism, and re-directed from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism? As has been stated before, regardless of its common usage in English, the term Ultra-Orthodox is pejorative, and not used by Haredi Jews to describe themselves. I note that the Latter Day Saints article refers to the members as "Latter Day Saints", not "Mormons", as they prefer, even though they are commonly called Mormons in English. Similarly, "Quakers" re-directs to "the Religious Society of Friends", their preferred but not common name. People looking for Moonies are re-directed to the Unification Church. We don't see articles on "Mohamedans" or "Mohametans" or even "Moslems", but rather "Muslims", as they prefer. Isn't it time this article was cleaned up as well? Jayjg 22:08, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Having seen an edit today where "Mormon" was changed to "LDS", I was reminded of this unfinished business. A few final words on the subject. The term Haredi is much older than "ultra-Orthodox", having been used by the Haredi to described themselves as early as 1900, and used officially in the names of communal groups by 1920. As for "ultra" being pejorative, a quick google finds it used pejoratively in this context:
I am a Jewish woman, and one who could be called by that favorite ever-so-subtle pejorative used by much of the media – "ultra-Orthodox". http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/467
"Ultra-Orthodox" is a pejorative label applied to more conservative elements in Orthodoxy; it is not a label those Jews use themselves. If they were to use a label, it would likely be "Charedi" or "Chassidic" or "Yeshivish". http://www.joi.org/cgi-bin/bigtalker/discussion.cgi?forum=6&discussion=38
In my community there are many self-help organizations supported and staffed exclusively by Orthodox volunteers - primarily the sort of commonly described by the fashionable pejorative - "ultra-Orthodox." http://www.clal.org/e68.html
In other contexts:
My impression is that the so-called "ultra-Darwinians" (to use Gould and Eldredge's pejorative expression http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200003/0091.html
The other side of the 'High Table' are quickly labelled with the pejorative 'Ultra-Darwinist', although how anyone can be 'beyond Darwin' remains elusive. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0471303011/104-5082128-7299966?v=glance
But in the practice of journalism, one should know better than to apply a pejorative label, the label of extremism ("ultra-"), to members of one political faction but never to its opposite number. http://lists.bostonradio.org/pipermail/boston-radio-interest/2003-October/000027.html
And even on Wikipedia:
Ultra-nationalists are extreme nationalists or patriots. The term has a clearly pejorative meaning, and is particularly used for those ardently opposed to international cooperation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-nationalist
Having heard no other objections, it would seem to make sense to move this article to more neutral terminology, following the Wikipedia standard. Any other discussion on the subject before getting started? Jayjg 05:07, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It seems the debate has been tentatively resolved. As per Jayjg's request on my talk page, I'm moving this page to Haredi Judaism. Most Ultra-Orthodox Jews, when asked, would describe themselves as Torah Jews or Haredim. This is lehavdel analogous to the LDS, whose in-house terminology is followed on Wikipedia (instead of calling them Mormons). In case of objections, please discuss below before making unilateral moves. JFW | T@lk 22:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think this is a bit of a whitewash:
It does not seem to me that there is "reconciliation and merging" except in the fringes. The overall situation is that indicated by the rise of Shinui and similar groups. The secular public are just as afraid of "Haredi domination" as ever, and the Haredim are no more compromising than before on things that matter to them. Of course there are tons of different opinions on this, but the opinion in the article is just one and should not be presented as more than that. -- Zero 04:03, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
A very typical example is described in this article. -- Zero 02:27, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
As a Haredi myself, I agree completely with Zero that this is a whitewash, there are some trends of social reconciliation between Haredi Jews and the Israeli society, but there are many polarizing trends that outweigh them (e.g. rise of Shinui, the resistance to any public encouragement of men to leave the Yeshiva / Kollel and join the workforce). Rule of thumb: while the Haredi community, or some elements within it, might be willing to participate in social compromise, religious or theological compromise is out of the question. -- GrifiN 12:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that something about these developments should be introduced into the article. Many Haredim believe that if you want to be a good Jew, then you need t spend all of your time in Torah study. But in the real world this is not a good choice for all people; not all people have the desire or constitution for non-stop lifelong Torah study. So what to do with these people? Have them leave Orthodox Judaism? Or perhaps this alternative:
My goodness, the fact that someone can't remain in yeshiva doesn't make him a heretic! These programs and projects have been extant for a long time, initially for young men with mental disabilities. However, even the "reactionary leadership" that Prof. Assaf is ranting at has approved of programs that combine vocational training and yeshiva studies, and this article is at least 3 years too late. You can make a brief mention of the phenomenon, and provide a footnote (like this [1]) to the news article, but please keep it brief, and without direct quotes from prof. Assaf. JFW | T@lk 14:38, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This should be a featured article.
Something I'm left wondering if anybody can find any info on.
The article mentions that the original number of haredi draft exemptions was 400 in 1948.
Can anybody find out what the number was when Begin lifted the numerical limit, and what the haredi population of Israel (in strict numbers, not percentages) was at each point? -- Penta 19:31, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
small point: on the page, Zionists are referred to as the Haredi's former "persecutors", and in the context of the aftermath of the Holocaust! I think a milder term would be more appropriate.
maybe opponets-- Truthaboutchabad 23:56, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We need numbers even if it is just estimates.
This sentence from the opening doesn't quote sources. It doesn't mention which customs. This is especially apalling given the tremendous range and variety of customs among Charedim. Even in regards to dress.
Many customs of both Chareidi and Modern Orthodox Jews are recent. Many date back to as late as the 20th century. Most come from much earlier sources, though customs have risen and developed all throughout Jewish History.
Shouldn't this sentence be removed? HKT 23:57, 4 May 2005
This passage is a mix of POV and inaccuracy. (1.) ...the law required that children receive an education, and parents also insisted on an education... others managed to find a balance between the religious and secular needs of their communities through Conservative Judaism, etc. Conservative Judaism is unnecessary for allowing a secular education. You don't have to, for example, remove synagogue partitions and allow driving to synagogue on the Sabbath, in order to keep congregants who merely desire secular education for their children. Looks to me like POV. (2.) Conservative Judaism was virtually non-existent before WWI; it didn't really affect the Jewish communal dynamic until the twenties. (Though Zecharias Frankel is considered a forebear of Conservative Judaism, and JTS was founded in 1886, and Solomon Schechter began to revitalize JTS in 1902, the movement never really began to take off in the community at large until the twenties.) (3.) This frustrated many religious leaders, who were unaccustomed to the freedoms the United States offered, which often came at the cost of their own authority.?! Which religious leaders? Who says they were frustrated? Where's the source? Also looks to me like POV. I thought that many people qualified to be religious leaders were frustrated at being unable to find positions as such. (4.) ... and parents also insisted on an education as a means of getting ahead in life. Hmm: "Getting ahead in life." That sounds just like the phrase many parents would use, but then again, they usually have a strong POV. Is "life" universally defined by salary and academic standing? How about "... as a means of preparation for future financial security." I know that the "getting ahead" phrase refers to the parents' POV, but I think that it's more appropriate to keep the POV out (or otherwise expressly labeled as such). (5.) A few began to lay the foundations of the Jewish revival movement known as the Teshuvah Movement. What is clasically known as the "Teshuvah Movement" didn't begin until the 1960's. In the early twentieth century, the "few" (actually much more than a few) were laying the foundations for, and building up, mainstream Orthodox communities and institutions. (6.) Some left; others managed to find a balance between the religious and secular needs of their communities through Conservative Judaism and later, Modern Orthodoxy. The Orthodox European emigree rabbis (and any US born Orthodox rabbis) very rarely took up leadership posts in non-Orthodox Jewish congregations. "Some left" is true. Some stayed and took up other occupations is also true. Some stayed and remained functioning in the Orthodox rabbinate. A few left to lead Reform congregations, though the vast majority of Reform leaders were never Orthodox leaders. Hardly any joined the (then lilliputian) Conservative Movement (though, beginning in the twenties, the sons of many Orthodox rabbis became Conservative rabbis). (7.) ...through Conservative Judaism and later, Modern Orthodoxy. If I'm not mistaken, what is commonly known as Modern Orthodoxy (the American brand of it, that is) also began to grow during the twenties.
Sorry that the objections were a bit out of sequence. HKT 00:04, 7 May 2005
Thanks for the polite yet impersonal preset message. Just kidding. Anyway, I followed your advice about signing on. Maybe I'll get to revamping the article later. ;-) HKT 22:13, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
The phrase " a person should be "a Jew in the home, and a mentsch (human being) in the street." was indeed a popular aphorism of the time, and mistakenly attributed to Mendelsohn. I can't remember who actually said it, and have been unable to track it down so far. Jayjg (talk) 23:13, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
It was popular enough for S.R. Hirsch to call the perfect Jew Mensch-Yisroel in response to this aphorism. JFW | T@lk 23:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
HKT ( talk · contribs): your translation of "haredi" is not more literal, it is simply less accurate in this case. According to the Even-Shoshan dictionary, "hared" means either tremble or fearful. See for example Genesis 27:33 and Shmuel-1 28:5. In these cases, as in the case of Haredi Judaism, translating as "fearful" is more accurate. OwenX 12:14, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the entire paragraph beginning "Many members of the Haredi community still ...." is out of place in the beginning of the article. It is simply a pejorative -- oh, look, how quaint, sort of like the Amish, but Jewish...
It should be moved much lower down, and replaced with a sincere discussion of who the Charedim are and what they believe. This business about how some believe Halacha was flexible and then fossilized should be addressed rather than glossed-over yet left as fact. frumtech
I could find no online support for this source, which sounds familiar but appears to be paraphrased from a different statement: "American Jews know how to make kiddush, but not how to make havdalah". Again, I don't know the source of that quote. If no source can be found it may be anecdotal and insufficient to support claims as this article does. JFW | T@lk 17:31, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Haredi is just an Israeli term for Hasidim and Lithuanian Orthodox who are almost Hasidim...what do you ppl think of combining Haredi and Hasidim on Wikipedia? I don't know how to do it so someone else do so :)
Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
From an outsiders perspective, I don't see this as a contradiction/paradox at all, if the main obstacles for the spiritual well-being are the other religious practices and leaders. In fact I think its non NPOV to call it such if this is the real reasoning of the Haredi.
It is not a paradox. Loving all Jews does not mean "loving all Jewish organisations", especially when these are - from the Haredi point of view - simply expressions of institutionalised heresy (not my words, see Shimon Schwab). JFW | T@lk 21:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
It's also an observor bisased paragraph. The bias is that it reflects English speaking Kiruv oriented experience, but not necessarily the typical situation in reality. In most of Heradi society, particularly among the Chasidim (who are by far the most numerous Heradim) Harkachas Rishoim is as big a mitzvah as kiruv, and much safer for the average Baal Habeis. They simply want nothing to do with modernim at all. In English speaking circles, particularly the Aish Hatorah/Chabad heavy crowds, that there is a mitzvah Harkachas rishoim is not often said, and kiruv is raised way above its signifigance in the broader Haredi world, sometimes being the point of everything they do. Illistrating a big diference is the comment above, "Loving all Jews does not mean "loving all Jewish organisations,." That is, of course, tru; but not germane to a discussion of Heradi because they never accepted to love ALL Jews, only al FAITHFUL Jews. As to the others, thery go by the Beis YOsef on Tur, "If there is a member of the community who wants to lead others astray it is a mitzvah to hate him and obstruct him in every way;" or the SHulchan Aruch on the laws of mourning, where if ones relative who is not shomer shabbos dies, one is required to put on Shabbos clothes and hold a celevration that an enemy of the L-rd has been destroyed. TOtally different outlook between the English speakers (who are themselves largely Baalei teshuvah) and the Hebrew and espescially Yiddish speaking people. 88.152.2.248 10:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Could someone who knows put something in the lifestyle section about what ultra-orthodox jews do for fun. I'm not joking. I'm really curious. Do ultra-orthodox jews dance, play sport and listen to music?
I can shine some light on this one. I have family that is orthodox and I know what they do. I find almost everything that they do absurd. Dancing generaly does not happen, because men and women are not allowed to dance together. Some orthodox jews don't play sports becasue their schedule does not allow it; they spend a great deal of their day in the yeshiva, escpecialy in Israel. In addition, because they have to wear the fancy get up and women are not allowed to wear short sleeves or pants, they don't have the attire for sports. As for music, most Orthodox Jews will listen to music, just not that of a woman. This is because they won't listen to a woman singing.
It's just like the letter from the Hasmonean King said to the King of Sparta when asked the same question. "My people has one pastime. We learn the TOrah." Seriously that is what they do. It's also fairly common to enjoy cigarettes with friends and chatting, though usually the topic turns to "talking in learning," as they say. Also, the rituals provide outlets. Shabbos meals, wedding, briss's, this guy is having a kiddish, time to go to the tische, the b'datz called a hafgunah, etc. But at these events the topic turns to learning all the time. 88.152.2.248 10:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this article does quite enough to show how "Haredi" Judaism is different from Orthodoxy in general: certainly much of the historical material could serve equally well for both. It does distinguish it from "Modern Orthodoxy", but that is a comparatively recent phenomenon.
Isn't the real point this? Most countries have a set of official Orthodox institutions, embodied in a Chief Rabbinate, such as the United Synagogue in Great Britain and the dual Chief Rabbinate in Israel; and in Israel someone who is Orthodox in this sense is called "dati" (and need not be "Modern Orthodox"). A "haredi" is someone who belongs to independent congregations to the right of these, on the ground that the official institutions are not Orthodox enough. (Hence the term "ultra-Orthodox".)
As for the history, there is a sort of precursor in S. R. Hirsch, who led an "Austritt" (secession) from the official Jewish community in Germany. The point there, however, is that that community was not exclusively Orthodox. Hirsch is therefore claimed as a spiritual ancestor by both centrist Orthodoxy (whether "dati" or Modern Orthodox) and by Haredi Judaism. It begs too many questions to try to classify older authorities such as the Vilna Gaon as "Haredi" or not.
The article needs to go into much more detail about the various developments that have resulted in today's Haredi Judaism, namely:
1. the Hasidic movement;
2. the yeshivah movement starting at Volozhyn;
3. the Chatam Sofer;
4. S. R. Hirsch and the distinction between Gemeinde and austrittende Orthodoxy (and analogous movements elsewhere, such as Adath Israel in England);
5. the formation of Agudat Israel in Poland;
6. the secession of the Haredim from the official Jewish community of Mandatory Palestine (and the formation of the Edah Haredit).
I don't have the knowledge to give all the facts and dates about the above; can someone else have a go?
Another difference worth mentioning is that, while all Orthodox Jews try to obey Jewish law, Haredim also give great weight to "daat Torah", meaning the wisdom of their leaders on what is a "Torah view", even on matters that are halachically neutral. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
See discussion at Talk:Orthodox_Judaism Kari Hazzard ( T | C) 14:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This term is just so confusing from the perspective of an outsider. Why not meger this with 'orthodox judaism'? Haredi is just the Israeli version of 'frum'. Do we have an article on Frum Judaism? Chavatshimshon 21:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The Present Day section mentions Israel, USA and UK. How about including other chareidi communiites: Antwerp, Zurich, South America? Redaktor 16:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
A list of the major yeshivos would be in place here. Anyone willing to start? Redaktor 16:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a little misunderstanding of a big part of the old status quo in Israel. It was not only between Harediim and the State but between all the religious groups and the State. The Chief Rabbinate was not given to the Haredim but to the religious Zionists. As well as IDF rabbinate. The part of the Haredim was mostly the exemption from military service. So this should be changed. I am waiting for other opinion before changing the text. Benjil 22:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
The article contains nothing about the History of Sephardic Haredim. All the information about the Askhenazi Haredim emerging as a result of European enlightenment doesn't seem to apply to them. Do the Sephardic Haredim have different traditions compare to the Azkhenazi ones? Also, as there are a substantial number of Sephardic Haredim in Israel(just look at Shas, I don't think that this section should be overlooked.
The problem is that most of the terms we use are not applicable to Sephardim. Reform, COnservative, Modern Orthodox, Heradi, etc. Most religious Sephardim if one had to squish them into these artificial terms would be theologically Heradi (I once had a cab driver quote me entire sections of Reishis Chokma) and in practical terms liberal Modern Orthodox. (He was not wearing a yarmulke while doing it, and their was some weird ISraeli-blasheme pop on the radio) The terms weren't created to describe them, so they don't fit. 88.152.2.248 10:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Having only recently viewed this, I was surprised to see the assumption that Jews of what would be referred to in this article as a "Haredi" viewpoint would actually use that term for themselves.
In the Israeli media, including the Haredi media, the term is used. However it is almost never used in the U.S. What would be called the Haredi community in Israel calls itself many things; most often "B'nai Torah" [sing: Ben Torah], "Frum", or even the colloquial "yeshivish" for the non-CHassisic groups - but never Haredi.
I see from reading here that people like to ask for sources; admittedly this is not an easy task here. Instead I can only buttress the claim with two items: 1) The English Haredi-type media never uses the term for US Jews, ever, and 2) I have travelled and interacted with almost every major Orthodox Jewish community in the U.S.
In summary, while the ideas of Haredi may exist outside of Israel, the term itself does not.
How do I get this amendation inserted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuvia613 ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Eight months later, how do I get somebody to address this point? It is a huge inaccurate impression that any Jews in the USA refer to themselves as Haredim. The word is not used. If further evidence is needed, one can listen to the entire transcript of each year's Agudath Israel of the US convention speeches and there is not a single use of the word Haredi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.33.220.162 ( talk) 06:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
First, apologies for not signing, I just found the cheatsheet . . . However your answer is incorrect, and I did not actually expect a counter-claim, so I did not previously provide more details or support. These points are not in any meaningful order.
Haredi is a term coined by persons not of that community to refer to segments of the Jewish population in Israel. The Israeli "Haredi" community has accepted that moniker for use in describing itself. It is, however, and as of now remains, an Israeli term with no real meaning or definition to other communities outside of Israel. Unless somebody has some pretty strong proofs that all the items I listed are incorrect, I plan to incorporate this change into the article after sufficient time for responses. Tuvia613 ( talk) 08:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in responding. Indeed the non-Israel communities are similar to the Haredi communities. I am not sure how you would label them, as they do not grant themselves an easy label like Haredi. They refer to themselves under a variety of titles, such as Torah Observant, Bnei Torah, Frum, etc. Keep in mind the communities have no need to indentify themselves to outside groups, so scholar -- or online encyclopedia -- is left with bit of a problem. It does not though obviate the need to make the edit so it is clear that Haredi is an Israeli -- as opposed to Jewish -- term. Tuvia613 ( talk) 07:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
There was an online magazine called "Edah" (or HaEdah", I forget which), that was definitely Modern Orthodox and had articles from people like Marc B. Shapiro and Menachem Kellner. It has since shut down, but some of the files are still available. Obviously this had no connection with the Edah Charedit. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 16:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
"Group of Haredim observing the Shabbat in New York City" -- it looks like they are observing Sikhs, not Shabbat. — Nricardo ( talk) 17:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe that this comment was actually was not making a general claim that innovation is assur, it's pretty clear from his own shutim and interpretations of the gemara that the chatam sofer and other early chareidim believed in some level of halakhic innovation and evolution. If I recall, it was actually a somewhat witty response to those reforms who referred to the biblical prophecy that there will be so much grain that the old will be discarded to make room for the new. I don't think it should be assumed that the the early chareidim believed a torah pasuk taken out of context would constitute a halakhic basis for anything. Avraham ( talk) 05:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
As I understand Hasidic Judaism and Haredi Judaism are two different groups. Why does these two articles have the same picture [2] then?
-- 84.202.208.245 ( talk) 22:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
It's clear this one needs discussion rather than continued reverts. Discussion should invoke relevant policies and guidelines, naturally. In the first instance, as my edit summary indicated, WP:HEBREW indicates use of sav only for topics that relate primarily to a particular subset of Diaspora Jewry. The majority of Haredim live in Israel, and for topics relating to modern Israel WP:HEBREW indicates tav. It doesn't matter whether, within Israel, there are more Ashkenazi Haredim than Sephardi Haredim, as neither group is part of Diaspora Jewry. In general, it won't be relevant that individual editors hold certain opinions about usage that emerge from their own personal practices or experiences (e.g., "go to Holon and listen to people pray"). Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 13:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Calm down, children! May I suggest the following:
1. It was scholarly convention (e.g. in the Jewish Encyclopedia) to use Sephardi spelling for pan-Jewish topics long before the foundation of the state of Israel; so stuff about "Zionism" is beside the point (but then as a Sephardi myself I would say that, wouldn't I?)
2. Where a word refers to something applying to Judaism in general, we should use Sephardi spelling ("Sukkot", not "Sukkos"; "shacharit", not "shachris")
3. Where it refers to something exclusively Ashkenazi, especially a proper name, Ashkenazi spelling is preferable ("misnagdim", not "mitnaggedim"); but even then titles of books should probably be in Sephardi, as all Jews may read them ("Shev Shema'tata", not "Shev Shmaytsa")
4. These distinctions should be applied according to the particular word, not according to the article ("Sukkot" does not become "Succos" in an article about an Ashkenazi yeshivah that breaks up for that holiday; Zvi Hirsch Chayes does not become "Sebi Hirsh Ħayyot" in an article about a Sephardi rabbi influenced by him).
This doesn't help us decide about Ashkenazi Haredi institutions in Israel, e.g. should it be "Edah Haredit" or "Eidoh Chareidis"? And there is a further issue about pre-modern rabbis with Biblical names ("Moses", "Mosheh" or "Moishe" ben whatever). But we can't solve everything at once!
What do you all think? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 16:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
for words, topics, etc concerning secular jewish topics or the state of israel directly the sephardic pronunciation should be used. when discussing religious matters (it should never be written chatam sofer instead of chasam sofer! never! nor should it ever be written mitnagged or chassidut because these are both insulting spellings to the movements and simply incorrect as no one used them before 50 years ago). an article regarding "haredi judaism" or "hasidic judaism" should take care to use only the ashkenazic pronunciation for all terms, unless those terms denote specifically israeli or sephardic concepts. thus sukkos should always be spelled sukkos because it is of religious significance. likewise edah hachareidis should always be like that way instead of edah hareidit. maybe it would be a best idea to use a neutral spelling such as sukkoth or shavuoth. wikipedia should provide factual information and not tinge it in any way or another. thus wikipedia should not do anything to support a particular pronunciation over the other. 68.50.99.248 ( talk) 18:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)jonah
Sir Myles is partially correct and partially incorrect in his assertion that prior to the "modern" Hebrew of Israel, publication such as the Encyclopedia Judaica used Sephardic transliterations. The confusion stems from the fact that technically he is correct -- but those transliterations are from actual Sephardic usage, not the spoken Hebrew of today, which is a combination of various sources. The Enc Judaica would write the holiday of Sukkot/Sukkos as "Sukkoth", not using either Sukkot or Sukkos. Tuvia613 ( talk) 08:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The picture of Neturei Karta in this article does not represent anyone but a tiny, little group of idiots. It is like portraying Tali Fahima as an average Israeli, or portraying Osama Bin Laden as an average Arab. It is a grave distortion of the truth that should not be allowed on Wikipedia. Nomo, I request you to carefully read [ [3]]. You will understand that the idiot pictured here (and who run the site www.nkusa.org) are none but a small group of nearly 'excommunicated' weirdos, even within Neturei Karta. -- Piz d'Es-Cha ( talk) 06:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
You are misinformed. The fringe element who demonstrated at Trafalgar Sq were denounced by the whole of Chareidi Jewry and have been excommunicated from chareidi synagogues. -- Redaktor ( talk) 16:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
What you suspect is irrelevant. They not accepted as part of the Haredi community. -- Redaktor ( talk) 17:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe what I am reading! If the chareidi rabbinates declare individuals to be non-haredi, that is definitive. The opinion of a Wikipedia editor has no standing in the matter. -- Redaktor ( talk) 18:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm inclined to think that Piz d'Es-Cha may have a point on this one. The Neturei Karta are an extremely controversial group that has gotten a lot of negative press for views and actions not necessarily representative of Haredi Jews as a whole. It might be more appropriate to have a picture of a less controversial group of people reflected in the visual that represents Haredi Jews in the article. I don't think it matters whether they are or are not Haredi Jews and I don't see a need to address the question. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 03:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The article says:
"In Germany the opponents of Reform rallied to Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, and later (in the 20th century) formed the Agudas Israel movement. In Poland Jews true to traditional values gathered under the banner of Agudas Shlumei Emunei Yisroel, which later evolved into the East-European arm of Agudas Yisroel."
But the article on World Agudath Israel says that it was founded in Poland in 1912.
Isn't the article confusing Agudas Israel with the Hirschian congregation Adath Israel? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 15:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
-- Redaktor ( talk) 21:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
This issue has been brought up before. I appeal to the resident editors to maintain their intellectual honesty.
Chareidi Judaism is said here to be a "form" of Orthodox Judaism when in actual fact "Chareidim" is more accurately but a Classical Hebrew term now used in Modern Israel to refer to Orthodox Jews as a whole with political and demographic connotations. My qualms with Chareidi Judaism gaining its own entry are not with these connotations, rather that it an alternate title for Orthodox Jews much like Frum or Heimisher Jews.
Furthermore, the title of this article which only describes Orthodox Jews is misleading as Chareidi Judaism is not at all considered to be a Jewish religious denomination distinct from or alike to Orthodox Judaism, Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism and others, nor as as a Jewish ethnic division with its own set of minhagim like Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews and others, or an ideological movement like Religious Zionism though the term is generally used to set Orthodox Jews apart from Religious Zionist Jews.
I propose this article which in essence about Orthodox Jews and Judaism, be merged into Orthodox Judaism where the term "Chareidi" will be given as an alternate term in modern-day Israel and now worldwide for Orthodox Jews. -- ephix ( talk) 12:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
(arbitrary break in discussion)
Thi merger proposal seems absolute dead in the water, I'm afraid, Ephix. I'm going to remove the merge tags because for cultural and space issues, it's not gojng to happen. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Strongly oppose. We've already got articles on Modern Orthodoxy, Open Orthodoxy etc. I see nothing wrong with having the present article together with these, and then an article on "Orthodoxy" as an umbrella term for them all. I don't even see any reason for changing it from "Haredi Judaism" to "Haredi": we've already got " Hasidic Judaism".
There may be some Haredim who regard their own stance as the only genuine Orthodoxy around, and Modern Orthodoxy as an impossible balancing act. But to merge the articles is to concede without discussion that this is factually true; whereas it is surely one point of view to be recorded among others.
It's true that "Orthodox" is fatally ambiguous. In one sense a synagogue (say the United Synagogue in Great Britain) is "Orthodox" if it officially follows the rules of halachah, however lax the private lives of its members; and a member will describe himself as "Orthodox" in the sense of not being Reform, even if he then admits that he is not very "Orthodox" in the sense of observant. In another sense you could say that a synagogue is only genuinely "Orthodox" if full observance is required from everyone, and that is what is meant by the "Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations". Even this strict sense, however, is wider than "Haredi", as it includes the Hirschians.
My vote is for leaving everything exactly as it is. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 10:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
While it's true that "Orthodox" does not mean "Haredi", even if the word "Ortodoxi" has come to mean "Haredi" in Israeli slang, it's equally true that Haredim are not something separate from Orthodox Jews, but rather one type of Orthodox Jew.
That being the case, I think this article should be renamed from "Haredi Judaism" to "Haredi". Because there's no such thing as "Haredi Judaism" as distinct from "Orthodox Judaism". It's merely a subtype.
For the record, I'm beginning to harbor a suspicion that this is essentially what ephix had in mind, but if it was, it wasn't explained very well. Because there are really two serious options, and that's to rename this article "Haredi" or to delete this article and transfer its content to a subsection within the Orthodox Judaism article. - LisaLiel ( talk) 18:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
"...there is no Sephardic Judaism article here on wikipedia": oh isn't there? Funny, I wrote most of it! (though maybe you think it should be renamed "Sephardic laws and customs"). That article does stress that "Sephardic Judaism" is not a denomination, but a cultural tradition. There can be a similar caveat here. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 09:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Vast majority against. Removing templates from pages. Issue closed, as far as I'm concerned. -- Piz d'Es-Cha ( talk) 09:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
While Haredi Jews are not particularly known for their interfaith efforts, it should perhaps be noted that Haredis and Roman Catholics share many common positions on the topics of Abortion, Contraception and Euthanasia. Rabbi Yehuda Levin, who is a Haredi, has for instance participated in several joint efforts with Catholic leaders in order to oppose Abortion. [5] ADM ( talk) 19:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Officially, divorce is permitted under halacha, and entire sections of Maimonedes, The Tur, The Shulchan Aruch, and tens of thousands of pages of post-Shulchan Aruch responsa are dedicated to it. There is no sweeping prohibition per se against divorce as there is in the Catholic religion. There may be times where it is counseled against, for the sociological reasons that divorce can be extremely destructive to children and extended families, but divorces happen all the time (unfortunately). Please do not confuse a respect for the sanctity of marriage and a desire to keep families together with a religious doctrine against divorce. Thank you. -- Avi ( talk) 23:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
One more thing: I'll give you a short list of really representative Haredi rabbis. Check the following list, which is a random quickly comprised list of some prominent living and deceased Haredi rabbis.
Now if you go and read all that these rabbis wrote about issues such as abortion and divorce, and any other issue on your mind, then you'll have a clearer understanding of the matters involved. These are all rabbis who are recognized by virtually the entire Haredi world as being important leaders of immense posture. Some examples of rabbis who belong to the Hardal world, which combines Religious Zionism and Modern Orthodoxy (sociologically, they are closer to the Modern Orthodox world) with halachic observance on a higher level than the regular Modern Orthodox, see for example Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, Rabbi Dov Lior, and also this Rabbi Yehuda Levin you mentioned (I think). -- Piz d'Es-Cha ( talk) 23:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Again the recent posts seem all to be about similarities between Haredi Jews and other religions, not about joint work between them.
One question. Jewish and Muslim organisations sometimes do establish joint lobbying groups for the defence of shechitah/halal. Some people involved in these may be dayanim of broad-brush "Orthodox" organisations, who are personally Haredi in the sense that they attended relevant yeshivot and look and dress like Haredim; but Haredi groups and organisations as such are not generally involved. Does this count as "Haredi inter-faith contact" or not? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 12:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)