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Interesting information on Hackers. I think you should add Robert Schifreen to your categories and more importantly his new book 'Defeating the Hacker' (John Wiley). Readers can read all about the author and sample chapters of his new book at www.defeatingthehacker.com. During the 1980s Robert was an active computer hacker. He became the first person in the world to be tried by a jury in connection with computer hacking. He was ultimately acquitted on all charges, which resulted in a change in the law. He is now the classic 'poacher turned gamekeeper', writing and speaking on IT Security at seminars and conferences around the world (He is Chairman on the Hacker's Panel at this years InfoSec). He also appears on radio and TV as an expert spokesman. His recently published book, 'Defeating the Hacker' is a must for everyone concerned about computer security, whether at home or at work. 193.130.68.19 10:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
(UTC) I've taken the liberty of trimming out some of the older discussion, save when more recent discussion on the theme continues, and the comments remain relevant, and reorganized much of it. I intend to continue doing so, to trim this down to a managable sized discussion. Please be sure to date all comments added in the next few weeks to prevent accidental trimming. (It's a good habit, anyway.) -- abb3w 31 Jul 2005
I've got huge problems with this page. It's just the whole seperation of hackers/cracker is just plain wrong. It's good to explain the arguement exists but don't try seperating hacker computer experts from hacker criminals. It's just not how it really is. The hacker subculture that was in it's prime in the late 80s early 90s was filled with people that many of you may call crackers or criminal hackers, but many of them (definitely not all) where also experts at what they were doing. You shouldn't try seperating this. Some people of any type do good or bad things. A hacker is someone with a love of technology that pushes it to the limit. Whether it's illegal or not has nothing to do with whether they are hacker. As for the term cracker, explain the debate and drop it. Within the hacker subculture (semi-criminal, if you will) even today the word cracker is used, but only to describe those people cracking software. You hack computers, you crack software. Anyway, that's my two cents.
I don't know how old this comment is, but that is pretty much always been my understanding. A Hacker was anyone who hacked (or mucked around) with computers and software to figure out how they worked. It did not matter what they did with that knowledge afterwards. A Cracker was a type of hacker that broke copy protection on software, such as Cracks and KeyGens. I grew up during the 80s/90s BBS era, and that is always how the terms where used.
I have some problems with this new version of the article. I think that it blurs the boundaries between hackers and crackers, especially in the talk of "black hat" and "white hat" hackers (terms I have never heard before). "Black hat" hacking (as I understand it) seems to be the same thing as cracking. -- Simon J Kissane
When referring to the term 'hacker' it may be useful to reference/consult a source like the Oxford English Dictionary. It lists two definitions, one referring to criminals, one referring to experts. Many people are arguing which definition is correct, but unfortunately, since English changes so often, they are both correct since they are both used. Here is the direct quote from OED: a. A person with an enthusiasm for programming or using computers as an end in itself. colloq. (orig. U.S.). b. A person who uses his skill with computers to try to gain unauthorized access to computer files or networks. colloq. Following each of these definitions is a list of references. It sould be noted that 'a' definition appeared in 1976, while the 'b' definition appeared in 1983. In my personal opinion, the first term should be emphasized as the original (and most likely) correct term, while the second was a distortion (by the Daily Telegraph, among others). However, NEITHER definition should be removed, or discouraged, since this is Wikipedia, and all definitions are important. I also should note that I could not find a computer-related definition for 'cracker.' It may simply be that this term is too new or not widely used, I'm not sure. 71.142.213.68 06:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC) anon
The PDP-1 comment is wrong, see the first chapter in Levy - TMRC people fiddled with 704 and TX-0 before PDP-1 appeared. Not sure how best to phrase tho. Stan 23:18 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Removed from article:
"The term hacker should not be used indiscriminately, as those who have proven themselves as adept understanders of modern technology are increasingly few and far between."
Objections:
-- Cyan 09:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
What sort of image, if any, would improve the Hacker page? I've added a new page for the (proposed) Hacker Emblem and listed it under "See Also". Lacking another image, does anyone think including that emblem would improve this page? Or is it too political or unrecognized? Ds13 20:14, 2004 Feb 22 (UTC)
This sentence: "Whether this is good (white hat) or bad (black hat) may depend on whether you are the US Government or not, but is generally considered by the computing community to be a white hat type of activity." needs to be supported better, to remain within NPOV.
Its just that the term hacker is now understood by the media as a derogatory term describing illegal activities, if I was to come up to someone and tell them I am a hacker, i would have to explain that this does not include illegal activities. It is possible that many crackers are also hackers, but because of this anyone is a hacker is now assumed to also be a cracker. FR34K 16:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The truth is that the term "hacker" is controversial and that there is no widely accepted definition, beyond that it refers to some kind of computer expert (good or bad). The article was POV because it advocated a specific definition. Personally, I don't really care what it means, but I'm quite familiar with all the discussion. I have rewritten the article for clarity and to make the fact that there is a controversy clear. -- Shibboleth 00:57, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Added WPI Hackers of the '70's. Many of the people listed here were instrumental in some of the technologies and practices of current systems and it seemed appropriate to show a sense of history of the genre. 01:45, 02 Aug 2004
Er... this is purely anecdotal, but: My uncle and two friends of his were programmers in the late 1960s to early 1970s era, (they are all electrical engineers today). They often use the term "hacker" in a way that would seem to make it synonymous with script kiddie, as in "Oh, yeah, that guy was just a hacker, he didn't know how to do anything." I was just wondering if "hacker" as "some kind of computer expert" is perhaps only a newer definition, with an older meaning of "lacking in expertise?" AdmN 06:14, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The distribution of 'noteable' hackers into categories seems to be a repeating point of contention, and is ultimately subjective. We have people with criminal convictions in "security experts", which seems to leave open the implication that they're just there because someone likes them enough not to put them in "intruders and criminals". The article itself notes that the categories overlap.
Might it be more appropriate to do away with categories, itemize the reasons why they were previously categorized [ie, their history], and let the reader decide?
Cheers.
Why is this article so stuck on the computer aspect of hackers as far as I see computers have little to do with what a hacker IS. urban explorers are hackers too you know. I would love to see the fact that a person dosen't need any computer experience to be a "hacker" come through in this definition. While still recognizing the media induced myth(my opinion) of hacker as having to be a computer genius/criminal. there is a hint of it kinda I guess in bringing up locksmithing but not really the way it is put. I can't deny that the two defintions set forth are true but the majority of people I know consider this much info on the debate ignorant. Still I don't know what to do with it. it seems there has been so much change to this document only the people who care to fight to keep their opinions there are not eventually filtered out.
Adrian Lamo? hacker?! All he did was scan for open proxies on large companies, he would then use them to connect to their internal network. This is talent of a scriptkid, not a hacker. He is only coined with the term hacker, because he would contact news companies and they would do a story on the "poor homeless hacker". He was homeless by choice, he wasn't forced to live on the streets. I think this entry should be removed, it will taint the meaning of the hacker definition. He was only in the game for publicity, and MANY agree with me.
The use of the term "hacker" in the computer-related sense starts in the late 1950's; Levy, Hackers dates it to 1959 (see pp. 11-17). Since the first computer with any technical security measures ( CTSS, the first time-sharing system, first operated in 1961) post-dates this by two years, we can conclusively determine that any possible use of the term for "someone who breaks into computers" post-dates the earlier meaning "someone who was interested in computers". I personally don't recall use of the term "hacker" to describe people breaking security until roughly around 1980 (driven mostly by half-clued reporters), but it would be worth looking into some old Multics/Tenex/etc documents to see what they called people who tried to break into the system. Noel (talk) 16:28, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
/:> diff hackers crackers
Hacking is about breaking computers protection, mostly from an outside network with the use of software security flaws.
Cracking is about breaking software protection, mostly through the analysis of its assembly code (reverse engineering).
You are a hacker when you hack and a cracker when you crack. You can be of course both of them. The article statement, that hackers are good, while crackers are bad, is totally wrong. It repeats the old media trash talk. Notice, that the definition of hacking/cracking is ethically independent. It is all about the kind of protection you break, not the reason of doing it (that's the white/black hats story).
Can we clear this up once and for all and seperate the articles with a very clear (and possibly lengthy) explanation on the hacker page saying to refer to cracker? Explanations of popular usage should also be included. Just because it's popular does not make it correct. Once we do this, it will allow Blackhat to redirect to Cracker (software) or Cracker, (computing). I know this is a touchy subject with many opinions, so this is mine. Avochelm 08:14, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
My commercial programming experience started in 1972, so some of you have experience pre-dating mine, but this is my understanding of the term "hacker" when used in a programmer context.
Some programmers take pride in the logical elegance of their code. When they saw some programmer who relied on persistence and 'brute force' to accomplish (or not) his tasks, he was referred to as a 'hacker'. Imagine someone cutting down a tree with a dull axe. He hacks at it until he succeeds although his work is ugly to behold.
When security of systems became a concern, the term 'hacker' was also used to refer to someone who, not knowing the designed method of gaining access, tried numerous techniques to find flaws in the system that would allow him access. i.e. he would 'hack' at it until it broke.
When computers came out of the air-conditioned, raised-floor, keycode-protected rooms and into popular culture of the office desk and dining room table, a hacker who could break into a computer system was viewed as an expert.
So, now we have conflicting meanings of the term 'hacker' representing 2 sides of the programming knowledge fence; a programmer without finesse, and a skilful intruder of computer systems.
I believe that the confusion between hackers and crackers comes from the fact that hackers appear to be secretive about what they are doing on the computer, thus leading to an assumption that they are doing something they shouldn't be, where in fact they are just too busy to talk, or don't want to be bothered explaining something very technical.
Finally, I must note that it is nice to (at last) find something other than the Jargon File that presents hackers as experts, even if it does suggest that the same word is correctly used for security breakers!
-- QS Computing.
According to the article, French haquenee is the origin of hackney and later hack. However, the Diccionario Crítico Etimológico Castellano e Hispánico by Joan Corominas and José A. Pascual gives in the etimology of Spanish jaca (" mare") the contrary: jaca comes from French haque which comes from English hack which comes from Middle English hakeney (which also gives French haquenée and Spanish hacanea), derived from the village Hackney Wick from London, with famous grazing terrain and the main horse market in the London area. They give 1367 for haquenée and 1457 for haque, circa 1400 for faca, and 1292 for hakeney. They quote Skeat (Etym. Dict. s.v. y suplemente; Rom. XXXVII, 164): Hackney (Hakeneya, Hakeney) in Middlesex is an horse grazing area near Smithfield, the most famous horse market in the London area. Hackney would mean "property of Haca by a river".
Hack only appears in English in 1687 (according to NED).
The DRAE maintains this same etimology. -- Error 00:58, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I removed the below section, as there are no articles on the topics. If anyone wants to make an article on them, they should make a disambiguation page for hacker. Neonumbers 01:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hacker is also someone who plays ASCII dungeon romps, rogue-likes, eg. Hack or Nethack.
And, naturally, a software modifier too - If I'm not entirely mistaken the whole term came from hacking, quickly fixing or patching, a program to perform something that's either cool, wanted or necessary.
I wonder why Bill Gates is included in this list. He is very successful as a businessman, but that's not the same as being a hacker. Is there any positive indication that he fits? There might be a reason I don't know about, but I hope someone will check. -- RMS Sep 25 2005
Referring to Bill Gates,I can only remember the words like "64KB mem is enough for everyone","JAVA is the best language I have seen before"...Did he talk about any technic specific in public? --turezurezuki
The last bit of code he wrote was in 1987 and it was described by a Microsoft worker as being a piece of crap. He's an extremely good businessman, but his code sucks.
Guido and Larry Wall are "Brilliant Hackers" ? I think that may be a stretch ;) -- Jdavis79 05:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I dispute the inclusion (and indeed the existance) of "Zeljko Vidas a.k.a. STONEY." A Google search on "Zeljko Vidas" gives only 37 hits, many of which come from the page itself. The story also seems unlikely, and is in the wrong section in any case. This seems like vanity to me, but I was wary of removing it in case it turns out to be genuine. 67.123.84.81 02:31, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
* Zeljko Vidas a.k.a. STONEY is a known security intruder known for his ˝white hat˝ intrusions and fast operating. He is one of two people who wrote the viral decomposer TITANIC which brought down over 70 companies, and can still be found on the net. Infiltrated into the files of croatias police dept. and deleted some records. It is still not known how he did it.
* Zeljko Vidas a.k.a. STONEY is an known security expert known for his "white hat" intrusions and fast operating. He is one of two people wich wrote the interseptic virus TITANIC wich has brought down over 70 companies and can still be found on the net. -Hacked into croatias police dept. and deleted neumorous records of the highest priority.
Reverted edits by 69.223.204.238 to last version by 203.217.52.34
The "stereotype" bulleted list seemed rather arbitrary and pointless tacked on to the end of the History section. -- antichris
Jeff Douthwaite 21:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I suggest a VIP question at this date 11/24/06, is: Can anyone hack into a Diebold voting machine and arrange it to come out with a win for the GOP? I suspect answer is No, but scuttlebutt is Yes... rsvp Jeffdo@quidnunc.net Jeff Douthwaite 21:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC) Someone at 24.22.73.243 delinked as "irrelevant" Spacewar! from the timeline reference to the (7 Dec 1972) Rolling Stone piece SPACEWAR: Fanatic Life and Symbolic Death Among the Computer Bums (link to easily found off-site pirate(?) reprint). I dispute this charge of irrelevancy.
I plan to put it back by end-of-week if someone doesn't talk me out of it or beat me to it.
In a related note, this quote by Alan Kay from the Rolling Stone article might be worth throwing in at that point in the timeline to show typical meaning/usage from the era: "A true hacker is not a group person. He's a person who loves to stay up all night, he and the machine in a love-hate relationship... They're kids who tended to be brilliant but not very interested in conventional goals[...] It's a term of derision and also the ultimate compliment."
In an unrelated note, I find this quote also amusing: "Since huge quantities of information can be computer-digitalized and transmitted, music researchers could, for example, swap records over the Net with 'essentially perfect fidelity.' So much for record stores (in present form)." Rolling Stone has been standard reading for the Music business since it was founded; the RIAA had more than 25 years warning before Napster showed up, so it's their own damn fault. =) abb3w 15:30 8 Aug 2005 (UTC)
Was Stephen Levy's 1984 book " Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution" the first book to use the phrase "Hacker Ethic" and to codify it? His codification was:
I'm thinking this specific codification probably belongs in the article. (I'm also amazed at how well it aligns with Wikipedia...)
Stewart Brand did a lot to publicize "classic" hackers and hacking, and I am trying to recall the details, but he organized a number of conferences on hacking in the classic sense. The first might have been called "Hackers 84," the second "Hackers 2.0" or something like that. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:44, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I added Stephen Levy's "Hackers" to the list of books. I don't understand why it wasn't there to to begin with. But I surely don't understand why the books listed are listed at all. Was/is there some sort of slection criteria with which I am unfamiliar? I'm tempted to nominate the whole section for deletion or at least serious clean-up as it appears to be completely random and adds little to the article.
-- ElKevbo 22:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Also - can someone help find the information for the first printing of Levy's book? The information currently in the article is for the most recent version published in 2001.
-- ElKevbo 22:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed the "Tapeworm" book, as it isn't published yet. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. I would also recommend separation of the book section along the lines of the "Notable Hackers" section. 67.123.84.81 00:31, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else find the phrase “for either performance needs and/or attractiveness” [emphasis mine] Hacker: Hardware modifier to be awkward?
Logic | English |
---|---|
A or B | A and/or B |
A xor B | either A or B |
To my knowledge, or cannot simultaneously be inclusive and exclusive.
I think it would be preferable that the “Intruder and criminal” category and its pluralized counterpart under Notable hackers were not presented first, as that tends empasize that the negative defenitions as the primary ones (to the diminishing of the others’ apparent significance). And after all, Wikipedia’s underlying code is, by in large, the work of hackers, and it can’t serve any criminal purpose that I can think of. 206.116.43.53 01:02, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to get feedback on the idea of spliting the article into two.
While the current article gives fair treatment to "both" types of hackers, and I acknowledge they have a related meaning, but the article is pretty unweildly, and there is very little information that is common to both hackers (geek-sense) and criminal hackers (crackers). The format has become very much Hacker this, Cracker that, Hacker this, Cracker that...
Advantages of splitting the article:
I also propose the new articles be called Hacker and Black hat hacker (or just Black hat or Criminal hacker? any thoughts on names?)
Also, I'm just going to do these changes, because I know no consensus every comes from these discussions.
— Pengo 01:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I've made changes.
Basically the contents of what was in Hacker are now spread over:
Please check out the above articles and fix them where you can.
While i've tried to keep many references to black hats in the hacker article, i'm not sure they're strong enough.
I do not want to pretend the Hacker (computer security) usage of hacker is "wrong" or "not proper" or a "totally different meaning". The articles seem much clearer now. Still some tidying up is certainly in order, and fixing of links and moving about of see also things.
I hope this is a positive step, much like when free software stopped trying to cover both FOSS and Freeware in one article. — Pengo 15:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
This would include Linus Torvalds, right?
Why isn't Kevin Mitnick listed as a famous hacker? I'd say he's the most famous person labeled as "hacker" by the media. (As in Bill Gates might be the most famous hacker, but he's not referred to as a "hacker" in the media.) -- AlanH 01:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Ok, this article needs serious cleaning. I'll include this quote:
COME ON! This is a shame. You people can write better articles. -- Shell 20:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC) (sorry, i am the guy who posted this. i did this back before I had an account here.)
The language "highly skilled" used to describe a programmer is inherently POV. When dealing with a technical community, the best NPOV distinction you can hope for is recognition through popularity. Specifically, recognition as being not _exceptionally_ skilled (I think "highly skilled" wouldn't be enough--a lot of programmers fit that description). There really isn't any other criteria you can use. So unless someone can come up with some better criteria for a section like this, I would consider deleting the list/rewriting it in a very different form. I'll leave this here for a month to give people time to comment. I'm not really sure how to rewrite it, because even with qualifications I'm not sure it would stand. I could say something like "Richard Stallman is considered by many in the open source community to be an exceptionally skilled hacker." But then again, many of those both inside and outside the OSS movement disagree. We could, for example, list Bruce Perens or ESR (who is fairly controversial) as well, but the same problem applies. -- Nathan J. Yoder 04:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I think that we should just wipe the slate clean and start a new article. That way we can start over without all of these disputes. -- Shell 20:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not realize there was so much discussion. The solution, in my opinion, is to create a "hacker" page that has multiple definitions and then to point to different one. This page,should be changed to: Hacker (computer expert)
Let's not continue "religious war" and simply change it. In the US civil war, a "hacker" was someone who used axes and knives to "hack" telephone lines, and this predates computer hacking!!! Many computer security experts consider the term to have more of a negative meaning. The issues is not black-and-white.
Who wrote this? I searched the internet and found absolutely nothing. It sounds like a silly cyberpunk story taken too far. --Anon.
ZeroCool vs AcidBurn should be in here somewhere then-- mitrebox 01:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Declef Leyven
This article is a JOKE. It says that hackers are broken down into "Guru" and "Wizard." This is NEVER used in the hacker community. I propose that we have the article blanked and completely rewritten from the ground up.
Can anyone confirm for me the fact that "hacker" is an abbreviation of the word "hijacker"? This is what I've always understood to be the history of the word but i'm not sure... If this can be confirmed then it needs to be in the article. -- Ikefox 01:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Hacker gets "hacked" by "hackers" every day. If you think you're a "hacker" and think you'll get mad respect for "hacking" this page (by hitting the edit button and typing some nonsense) then please reconsider. Your "hack" will be reverted by Wikipedia's own skilled hackers. In the meantime this page needs to be semiprotected. — Pengo 09:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
How do I convert this category Category:American hackers into a list to include it here ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unixer ( talk • contribs) .
"However, because most hacks do not exploit systems or gain unauthorized access, most people who have enough technical skill to produce clever hacks consider the use of the word hacker in this sense to be bigotry. Malicious hackers in this sense are often called black hat hackers, but it is more appropriate to call them crackers(from criminal hacker) as this is a term which distinguishes the exploitation of security weaknesses from hacking in general." This is a shining example of POV in its native environment. Pti 19:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Does hacker word also means that you know minute detais about a system?So will a compiler programmer will be called a hacker or not?what if someone knows everything about his car.Does it mean he is a hacker in that sense because he can extract every ounce of horse power from it?
RMS and friends would like to think that the word 'Hacker' means someone skillful with computers. Let's face it; english is a fluid language, and 'Hacker' is now commonly used to mean 'Computer Criminal'. Do a search for Hacker on google news; you'll see tons of results for computer criminals, virtually zero for the Linus-style hacker. It should be re-written to mostly discuss computer criminals with a small section devoted to experts.
___________________
Hacker = one who hacks security of a computer and breaks in
Cracker = one who cracks copy protection of a software piece
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.77.135.94 ( talk • contribs) .
Plenty of people (though few journalists) use the term hacker in the other senses used in this article. You're looking for Hacker (computer security), which discusses the meaning used by the media. There used to be a link to it at the start of the hacker article. — Pengo 15:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
See also the reference to the Hacker definition controversy, which used to dominate the article before separating, and covers this issue quite comprehensively. The current article covering of both these (technically accurate) senses is as close to NPOV as can be gotten on the topic while on the internet. Feel free to discuss your position with editors at the OED. — abb3w (too lazy to sign in)
"John Carmack, a widely recognized and influential game programmer."
Apparently he's so widely recognized and influnetial that no one's ever heard of him! I think I can speak for most people when I say that I've never heard of him.
All this stuff about him could be true but I think you're exagerrating when you say "widely recognized" and I really doubt the average gamer would know who he is. And if that's not the case then maybe you should point out to whom exactly is he "widely recognized" by?
I sincerely believe that the link and entry for Horatio Huxley does not deserve to be here. It was probably added by himself as some kind of self promotion stunt and reads like a CV. His is entry on Wikipedia previously contained false claims of his association with cDc, but this was removed. He is a relatively unknown character in South Africa who has only one claim to fame, and that is that he managed to write yet another key logger to demonstrate that you can capture online banking passwords. In fact, what he demonstrated in 2003 was already demonstrated previously by Nic Roets in 2001 and was covered by a national television station.
He managed to get a major South African news paper to do a story on this, and this same story was echoed in other publications. Otherwise, he is relatively unknown in the South African information security and hacker community and his entry and his references for credibility (dr_juz and Justin Shaw) are either fictional or insignificant. There are quite a number of black and white hat hackers in the South African scene who are certainly more noteworthy than this character and I wouldn't even go as far as saying any of them really deserve to be mentioned as notable hackers or security professionals on an international level.
I removed the following links from the External links section as probable link spam:
Several of the other links probably also warrant removal but these seem to be the most obvious. -- ElKevbo 14:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that hacker is the correct term for someone who breaks into a computer and it is the first thought that people think of. Cracker meant something else during the formative years of hacking both legal and illegal, and to use it retroactively to describe something that already in the public's mind of the definition would be wasteful and misleading.
I would like to mention that using the terms black hat and white hat are useless because depending on the frame of referrence, everyone is some shade of grey hat. It's a confusing term that sounds like it belongs in dungeons and dragons books and not to describe hackers.
It is silly, almost monty-python-esque to describe someone as wearing a coloured hat. It is also a lazy short hand and highly biased. Please fill out the description of the hacker and let the reader of the article make up their mind as to where the indiviual falls. -- Netw1z 13:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Why do they? I mean there is no reasing to do it. Even if it is a goal your probably gonna go to jail or something and be good after jail. Call of duty 05:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Who is the person in the photograph? And why is he in this article? I can't find any information about him. scskowron, 22:09, 24 June 2006
Here's a quote from the 1993 film Jurassic Park:
Lex: I'm a hacker!
Tim: That's what I said: you're a nerd.
Lex: I am not a computer nerd. I prefer to be called a hacker!
My understanding of this conversation is that "hacker" in this conversation meant simply hacking at a computer in a skilled manner. If this is true, the quote suggests that, as of 1993, the original term had not yet died. Gordeonbleu 17:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Per suggestion ElKevbo, adding discussion section. My position: Non-notable; unless further dicussion changes matters, (rv), and start banning IPs. Of course, I favor "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eis" too much to really qualify as a liberal in some things. Abb3w 05:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I put a deletion request for this category, please make comments and suggestions. A.J. 10:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I starded another CFD discussion about "Fooian hackers" categories, see Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Hackers_by_nationality. A.J. 10:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The section "Hacker: Highly skilled programmer" reads like a treatise on why people who are smarter than whoever wrote this shouldn't get a job and are just nerds anyway. A full third of the section is spent on saying that companies don't want to/shouldn't want to hire "hackers" (in the sense of highly skilled programmers), followed by a paragraph on how hackers tend to not get along with people. This is highly POV, and as someone who is proud to have been called a hacker (in the "master programmer" sense) by other hackers, I even find it insulting. There is no need to perpetuate negative prejudice against skilled computer specialists in the definition of this term; and even if its true that hackers are more likely to lack in social skills than the general population, I must point out that the article Artist does not spend two thirds of its substance to elaborate on how highly talented artists are statistically more likely to exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia or cut their ears off, and how companies should prefer to hire people who are only just creative enough to do the job at hand. 24.57.194.33 07:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Add a link to the major hacking event Def Con? www.defcon.org to check it out. I think it would be kind of cool, it shows how big and not really of a "in the closet" activity that hacking has really become. Thanks -Seth Nov 02, 2006
"Story of Mel" link: http://catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.37.45.26 ( talk) 00:26, December 18, 2006
Are 'beautiful' and 'elegant' really proper terms to describe programs in this article? They are logical constructs, not paintings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.177.48.227 ( talk) 17:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC).
"William Henry Gates III (Bill Gates) — is the co-founder and chairman of Microsoft Corporation. Although he personally demonstrated considerable personal coding skill early in his company's history" - I don't suppose we could see some source code or something?
Although the term "hacker" nowadays in every day language refers to a computer hacker, it is my understanding that a hacker was originally a term or title given to the people who's expertize specialized in certain very specific laws and regulations and sought loopholes in those laws and regulations to win cases for law firms. The term "computer hacker" was then given to people who were very proficient in computer language and programming. I am not sure if the term was first used for the people who broke into computer systems as they would be the ones who would need both the programming expertize and labelling of "computer hacker" though. 24.83.178.11 11:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)KnowledgeSeeker
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Interesting information on Hackers. I think you should add Robert Schifreen to your categories and more importantly his new book 'Defeating the Hacker' (John Wiley). Readers can read all about the author and sample chapters of his new book at www.defeatingthehacker.com. During the 1980s Robert was an active computer hacker. He became the first person in the world to be tried by a jury in connection with computer hacking. He was ultimately acquitted on all charges, which resulted in a change in the law. He is now the classic 'poacher turned gamekeeper', writing and speaking on IT Security at seminars and conferences around the world (He is Chairman on the Hacker's Panel at this years InfoSec). He also appears on radio and TV as an expert spokesman. His recently published book, 'Defeating the Hacker' is a must for everyone concerned about computer security, whether at home or at work. 193.130.68.19 10:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
(UTC) I've taken the liberty of trimming out some of the older discussion, save when more recent discussion on the theme continues, and the comments remain relevant, and reorganized much of it. I intend to continue doing so, to trim this down to a managable sized discussion. Please be sure to date all comments added in the next few weeks to prevent accidental trimming. (It's a good habit, anyway.) -- abb3w 31 Jul 2005
I've got huge problems with this page. It's just the whole seperation of hackers/cracker is just plain wrong. It's good to explain the arguement exists but don't try seperating hacker computer experts from hacker criminals. It's just not how it really is. The hacker subculture that was in it's prime in the late 80s early 90s was filled with people that many of you may call crackers or criminal hackers, but many of them (definitely not all) where also experts at what they were doing. You shouldn't try seperating this. Some people of any type do good or bad things. A hacker is someone with a love of technology that pushes it to the limit. Whether it's illegal or not has nothing to do with whether they are hacker. As for the term cracker, explain the debate and drop it. Within the hacker subculture (semi-criminal, if you will) even today the word cracker is used, but only to describe those people cracking software. You hack computers, you crack software. Anyway, that's my two cents.
I don't know how old this comment is, but that is pretty much always been my understanding. A Hacker was anyone who hacked (or mucked around) with computers and software to figure out how they worked. It did not matter what they did with that knowledge afterwards. A Cracker was a type of hacker that broke copy protection on software, such as Cracks and KeyGens. I grew up during the 80s/90s BBS era, and that is always how the terms where used.
I have some problems with this new version of the article. I think that it blurs the boundaries between hackers and crackers, especially in the talk of "black hat" and "white hat" hackers (terms I have never heard before). "Black hat" hacking (as I understand it) seems to be the same thing as cracking. -- Simon J Kissane
When referring to the term 'hacker' it may be useful to reference/consult a source like the Oxford English Dictionary. It lists two definitions, one referring to criminals, one referring to experts. Many people are arguing which definition is correct, but unfortunately, since English changes so often, they are both correct since they are both used. Here is the direct quote from OED: a. A person with an enthusiasm for programming or using computers as an end in itself. colloq. (orig. U.S.). b. A person who uses his skill with computers to try to gain unauthorized access to computer files or networks. colloq. Following each of these definitions is a list of references. It sould be noted that 'a' definition appeared in 1976, while the 'b' definition appeared in 1983. In my personal opinion, the first term should be emphasized as the original (and most likely) correct term, while the second was a distortion (by the Daily Telegraph, among others). However, NEITHER definition should be removed, or discouraged, since this is Wikipedia, and all definitions are important. I also should note that I could not find a computer-related definition for 'cracker.' It may simply be that this term is too new or not widely used, I'm not sure. 71.142.213.68 06:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC) anon
The PDP-1 comment is wrong, see the first chapter in Levy - TMRC people fiddled with 704 and TX-0 before PDP-1 appeared. Not sure how best to phrase tho. Stan 23:18 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Removed from article:
"The term hacker should not be used indiscriminately, as those who have proven themselves as adept understanders of modern technology are increasingly few and far between."
Objections:
-- Cyan 09:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
What sort of image, if any, would improve the Hacker page? I've added a new page for the (proposed) Hacker Emblem and listed it under "See Also". Lacking another image, does anyone think including that emblem would improve this page? Or is it too political or unrecognized? Ds13 20:14, 2004 Feb 22 (UTC)
This sentence: "Whether this is good (white hat) or bad (black hat) may depend on whether you are the US Government or not, but is generally considered by the computing community to be a white hat type of activity." needs to be supported better, to remain within NPOV.
Its just that the term hacker is now understood by the media as a derogatory term describing illegal activities, if I was to come up to someone and tell them I am a hacker, i would have to explain that this does not include illegal activities. It is possible that many crackers are also hackers, but because of this anyone is a hacker is now assumed to also be a cracker. FR34K 16:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The truth is that the term "hacker" is controversial and that there is no widely accepted definition, beyond that it refers to some kind of computer expert (good or bad). The article was POV because it advocated a specific definition. Personally, I don't really care what it means, but I'm quite familiar with all the discussion. I have rewritten the article for clarity and to make the fact that there is a controversy clear. -- Shibboleth 00:57, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Added WPI Hackers of the '70's. Many of the people listed here were instrumental in some of the technologies and practices of current systems and it seemed appropriate to show a sense of history of the genre. 01:45, 02 Aug 2004
Er... this is purely anecdotal, but: My uncle and two friends of his were programmers in the late 1960s to early 1970s era, (they are all electrical engineers today). They often use the term "hacker" in a way that would seem to make it synonymous with script kiddie, as in "Oh, yeah, that guy was just a hacker, he didn't know how to do anything." I was just wondering if "hacker" as "some kind of computer expert" is perhaps only a newer definition, with an older meaning of "lacking in expertise?" AdmN 06:14, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The distribution of 'noteable' hackers into categories seems to be a repeating point of contention, and is ultimately subjective. We have people with criminal convictions in "security experts", which seems to leave open the implication that they're just there because someone likes them enough not to put them in "intruders and criminals". The article itself notes that the categories overlap.
Might it be more appropriate to do away with categories, itemize the reasons why they were previously categorized [ie, their history], and let the reader decide?
Cheers.
Why is this article so stuck on the computer aspect of hackers as far as I see computers have little to do with what a hacker IS. urban explorers are hackers too you know. I would love to see the fact that a person dosen't need any computer experience to be a "hacker" come through in this definition. While still recognizing the media induced myth(my opinion) of hacker as having to be a computer genius/criminal. there is a hint of it kinda I guess in bringing up locksmithing but not really the way it is put. I can't deny that the two defintions set forth are true but the majority of people I know consider this much info on the debate ignorant. Still I don't know what to do with it. it seems there has been so much change to this document only the people who care to fight to keep their opinions there are not eventually filtered out.
Adrian Lamo? hacker?! All he did was scan for open proxies on large companies, he would then use them to connect to their internal network. This is talent of a scriptkid, not a hacker. He is only coined with the term hacker, because he would contact news companies and they would do a story on the "poor homeless hacker". He was homeless by choice, he wasn't forced to live on the streets. I think this entry should be removed, it will taint the meaning of the hacker definition. He was only in the game for publicity, and MANY agree with me.
The use of the term "hacker" in the computer-related sense starts in the late 1950's; Levy, Hackers dates it to 1959 (see pp. 11-17). Since the first computer with any technical security measures ( CTSS, the first time-sharing system, first operated in 1961) post-dates this by two years, we can conclusively determine that any possible use of the term for "someone who breaks into computers" post-dates the earlier meaning "someone who was interested in computers". I personally don't recall use of the term "hacker" to describe people breaking security until roughly around 1980 (driven mostly by half-clued reporters), but it would be worth looking into some old Multics/Tenex/etc documents to see what they called people who tried to break into the system. Noel (talk) 16:28, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
/:> diff hackers crackers
Hacking is about breaking computers protection, mostly from an outside network with the use of software security flaws.
Cracking is about breaking software protection, mostly through the analysis of its assembly code (reverse engineering).
You are a hacker when you hack and a cracker when you crack. You can be of course both of them. The article statement, that hackers are good, while crackers are bad, is totally wrong. It repeats the old media trash talk. Notice, that the definition of hacking/cracking is ethically independent. It is all about the kind of protection you break, not the reason of doing it (that's the white/black hats story).
Can we clear this up once and for all and seperate the articles with a very clear (and possibly lengthy) explanation on the hacker page saying to refer to cracker? Explanations of popular usage should also be included. Just because it's popular does not make it correct. Once we do this, it will allow Blackhat to redirect to Cracker (software) or Cracker, (computing). I know this is a touchy subject with many opinions, so this is mine. Avochelm 08:14, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
My commercial programming experience started in 1972, so some of you have experience pre-dating mine, but this is my understanding of the term "hacker" when used in a programmer context.
Some programmers take pride in the logical elegance of their code. When they saw some programmer who relied on persistence and 'brute force' to accomplish (or not) his tasks, he was referred to as a 'hacker'. Imagine someone cutting down a tree with a dull axe. He hacks at it until he succeeds although his work is ugly to behold.
When security of systems became a concern, the term 'hacker' was also used to refer to someone who, not knowing the designed method of gaining access, tried numerous techniques to find flaws in the system that would allow him access. i.e. he would 'hack' at it until it broke.
When computers came out of the air-conditioned, raised-floor, keycode-protected rooms and into popular culture of the office desk and dining room table, a hacker who could break into a computer system was viewed as an expert.
So, now we have conflicting meanings of the term 'hacker' representing 2 sides of the programming knowledge fence; a programmer without finesse, and a skilful intruder of computer systems.
I believe that the confusion between hackers and crackers comes from the fact that hackers appear to be secretive about what they are doing on the computer, thus leading to an assumption that they are doing something they shouldn't be, where in fact they are just too busy to talk, or don't want to be bothered explaining something very technical.
Finally, I must note that it is nice to (at last) find something other than the Jargon File that presents hackers as experts, even if it does suggest that the same word is correctly used for security breakers!
-- QS Computing.
According to the article, French haquenee is the origin of hackney and later hack. However, the Diccionario Crítico Etimológico Castellano e Hispánico by Joan Corominas and José A. Pascual gives in the etimology of Spanish jaca (" mare") the contrary: jaca comes from French haque which comes from English hack which comes from Middle English hakeney (which also gives French haquenée and Spanish hacanea), derived from the village Hackney Wick from London, with famous grazing terrain and the main horse market in the London area. They give 1367 for haquenée and 1457 for haque, circa 1400 for faca, and 1292 for hakeney. They quote Skeat (Etym. Dict. s.v. y suplemente; Rom. XXXVII, 164): Hackney (Hakeneya, Hakeney) in Middlesex is an horse grazing area near Smithfield, the most famous horse market in the London area. Hackney would mean "property of Haca by a river".
Hack only appears in English in 1687 (according to NED).
The DRAE maintains this same etimology. -- Error 00:58, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I removed the below section, as there are no articles on the topics. If anyone wants to make an article on them, they should make a disambiguation page for hacker. Neonumbers 01:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hacker is also someone who plays ASCII dungeon romps, rogue-likes, eg. Hack or Nethack.
And, naturally, a software modifier too - If I'm not entirely mistaken the whole term came from hacking, quickly fixing or patching, a program to perform something that's either cool, wanted or necessary.
I wonder why Bill Gates is included in this list. He is very successful as a businessman, but that's not the same as being a hacker. Is there any positive indication that he fits? There might be a reason I don't know about, but I hope someone will check. -- RMS Sep 25 2005
Referring to Bill Gates,I can only remember the words like "64KB mem is enough for everyone","JAVA is the best language I have seen before"...Did he talk about any technic specific in public? --turezurezuki
The last bit of code he wrote was in 1987 and it was described by a Microsoft worker as being a piece of crap. He's an extremely good businessman, but his code sucks.
Guido and Larry Wall are "Brilliant Hackers" ? I think that may be a stretch ;) -- Jdavis79 05:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I dispute the inclusion (and indeed the existance) of "Zeljko Vidas a.k.a. STONEY." A Google search on "Zeljko Vidas" gives only 37 hits, many of which come from the page itself. The story also seems unlikely, and is in the wrong section in any case. This seems like vanity to me, but I was wary of removing it in case it turns out to be genuine. 67.123.84.81 02:31, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
* Zeljko Vidas a.k.a. STONEY is a known security intruder known for his ˝white hat˝ intrusions and fast operating. He is one of two people who wrote the viral decomposer TITANIC which brought down over 70 companies, and can still be found on the net. Infiltrated into the files of croatias police dept. and deleted some records. It is still not known how he did it.
* Zeljko Vidas a.k.a. STONEY is an known security expert known for his "white hat" intrusions and fast operating. He is one of two people wich wrote the interseptic virus TITANIC wich has brought down over 70 companies and can still be found on the net. -Hacked into croatias police dept. and deleted neumorous records of the highest priority.
Reverted edits by 69.223.204.238 to last version by 203.217.52.34
The "stereotype" bulleted list seemed rather arbitrary and pointless tacked on to the end of the History section. -- antichris
Jeff Douthwaite 21:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I suggest a VIP question at this date 11/24/06, is: Can anyone hack into a Diebold voting machine and arrange it to come out with a win for the GOP? I suspect answer is No, but scuttlebutt is Yes... rsvp Jeffdo@quidnunc.net Jeff Douthwaite 21:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC) Someone at 24.22.73.243 delinked as "irrelevant" Spacewar! from the timeline reference to the (7 Dec 1972) Rolling Stone piece SPACEWAR: Fanatic Life and Symbolic Death Among the Computer Bums (link to easily found off-site pirate(?) reprint). I dispute this charge of irrelevancy.
I plan to put it back by end-of-week if someone doesn't talk me out of it or beat me to it.
In a related note, this quote by Alan Kay from the Rolling Stone article might be worth throwing in at that point in the timeline to show typical meaning/usage from the era: "A true hacker is not a group person. He's a person who loves to stay up all night, he and the machine in a love-hate relationship... They're kids who tended to be brilliant but not very interested in conventional goals[...] It's a term of derision and also the ultimate compliment."
In an unrelated note, I find this quote also amusing: "Since huge quantities of information can be computer-digitalized and transmitted, music researchers could, for example, swap records over the Net with 'essentially perfect fidelity.' So much for record stores (in present form)." Rolling Stone has been standard reading for the Music business since it was founded; the RIAA had more than 25 years warning before Napster showed up, so it's their own damn fault. =) abb3w 15:30 8 Aug 2005 (UTC)
Was Stephen Levy's 1984 book " Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution" the first book to use the phrase "Hacker Ethic" and to codify it? His codification was:
I'm thinking this specific codification probably belongs in the article. (I'm also amazed at how well it aligns with Wikipedia...)
Stewart Brand did a lot to publicize "classic" hackers and hacking, and I am trying to recall the details, but he organized a number of conferences on hacking in the classic sense. The first might have been called "Hackers 84," the second "Hackers 2.0" or something like that. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:44, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I added Stephen Levy's "Hackers" to the list of books. I don't understand why it wasn't there to to begin with. But I surely don't understand why the books listed are listed at all. Was/is there some sort of slection criteria with which I am unfamiliar? I'm tempted to nominate the whole section for deletion or at least serious clean-up as it appears to be completely random and adds little to the article.
-- ElKevbo 22:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Also - can someone help find the information for the first printing of Levy's book? The information currently in the article is for the most recent version published in 2001.
-- ElKevbo 22:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed the "Tapeworm" book, as it isn't published yet. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. I would also recommend separation of the book section along the lines of the "Notable Hackers" section. 67.123.84.81 00:31, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else find the phrase “for either performance needs and/or attractiveness” [emphasis mine] Hacker: Hardware modifier to be awkward?
Logic | English |
---|---|
A or B | A and/or B |
A xor B | either A or B |
To my knowledge, or cannot simultaneously be inclusive and exclusive.
I think it would be preferable that the “Intruder and criminal” category and its pluralized counterpart under Notable hackers were not presented first, as that tends empasize that the negative defenitions as the primary ones (to the diminishing of the others’ apparent significance). And after all, Wikipedia’s underlying code is, by in large, the work of hackers, and it can’t serve any criminal purpose that I can think of. 206.116.43.53 01:02, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to get feedback on the idea of spliting the article into two.
While the current article gives fair treatment to "both" types of hackers, and I acknowledge they have a related meaning, but the article is pretty unweildly, and there is very little information that is common to both hackers (geek-sense) and criminal hackers (crackers). The format has become very much Hacker this, Cracker that, Hacker this, Cracker that...
Advantages of splitting the article:
I also propose the new articles be called Hacker and Black hat hacker (or just Black hat or Criminal hacker? any thoughts on names?)
Also, I'm just going to do these changes, because I know no consensus every comes from these discussions.
— Pengo 01:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I've made changes.
Basically the contents of what was in Hacker are now spread over:
Please check out the above articles and fix them where you can.
While i've tried to keep many references to black hats in the hacker article, i'm not sure they're strong enough.
I do not want to pretend the Hacker (computer security) usage of hacker is "wrong" or "not proper" or a "totally different meaning". The articles seem much clearer now. Still some tidying up is certainly in order, and fixing of links and moving about of see also things.
I hope this is a positive step, much like when free software stopped trying to cover both FOSS and Freeware in one article. — Pengo 15:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
This would include Linus Torvalds, right?
Why isn't Kevin Mitnick listed as a famous hacker? I'd say he's the most famous person labeled as "hacker" by the media. (As in Bill Gates might be the most famous hacker, but he's not referred to as a "hacker" in the media.) -- AlanH 01:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Ok, this article needs serious cleaning. I'll include this quote:
COME ON! This is a shame. You people can write better articles. -- Shell 20:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC) (sorry, i am the guy who posted this. i did this back before I had an account here.)
The language "highly skilled" used to describe a programmer is inherently POV. When dealing with a technical community, the best NPOV distinction you can hope for is recognition through popularity. Specifically, recognition as being not _exceptionally_ skilled (I think "highly skilled" wouldn't be enough--a lot of programmers fit that description). There really isn't any other criteria you can use. So unless someone can come up with some better criteria for a section like this, I would consider deleting the list/rewriting it in a very different form. I'll leave this here for a month to give people time to comment. I'm not really sure how to rewrite it, because even with qualifications I'm not sure it would stand. I could say something like "Richard Stallman is considered by many in the open source community to be an exceptionally skilled hacker." But then again, many of those both inside and outside the OSS movement disagree. We could, for example, list Bruce Perens or ESR (who is fairly controversial) as well, but the same problem applies. -- Nathan J. Yoder 04:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I think that we should just wipe the slate clean and start a new article. That way we can start over without all of these disputes. -- Shell 20:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not realize there was so much discussion. The solution, in my opinion, is to create a "hacker" page that has multiple definitions and then to point to different one. This page,should be changed to: Hacker (computer expert)
Let's not continue "religious war" and simply change it. In the US civil war, a "hacker" was someone who used axes and knives to "hack" telephone lines, and this predates computer hacking!!! Many computer security experts consider the term to have more of a negative meaning. The issues is not black-and-white.
Who wrote this? I searched the internet and found absolutely nothing. It sounds like a silly cyberpunk story taken too far. --Anon.
ZeroCool vs AcidBurn should be in here somewhere then-- mitrebox 01:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Declef Leyven
This article is a JOKE. It says that hackers are broken down into "Guru" and "Wizard." This is NEVER used in the hacker community. I propose that we have the article blanked and completely rewritten from the ground up.
Can anyone confirm for me the fact that "hacker" is an abbreviation of the word "hijacker"? This is what I've always understood to be the history of the word but i'm not sure... If this can be confirmed then it needs to be in the article. -- Ikefox 01:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Hacker gets "hacked" by "hackers" every day. If you think you're a "hacker" and think you'll get mad respect for "hacking" this page (by hitting the edit button and typing some nonsense) then please reconsider. Your "hack" will be reverted by Wikipedia's own skilled hackers. In the meantime this page needs to be semiprotected. — Pengo 09:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
How do I convert this category Category:American hackers into a list to include it here ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unixer ( talk • contribs) .
"However, because most hacks do not exploit systems or gain unauthorized access, most people who have enough technical skill to produce clever hacks consider the use of the word hacker in this sense to be bigotry. Malicious hackers in this sense are often called black hat hackers, but it is more appropriate to call them crackers(from criminal hacker) as this is a term which distinguishes the exploitation of security weaknesses from hacking in general." This is a shining example of POV in its native environment. Pti 19:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Does hacker word also means that you know minute detais about a system?So will a compiler programmer will be called a hacker or not?what if someone knows everything about his car.Does it mean he is a hacker in that sense because he can extract every ounce of horse power from it?
RMS and friends would like to think that the word 'Hacker' means someone skillful with computers. Let's face it; english is a fluid language, and 'Hacker' is now commonly used to mean 'Computer Criminal'. Do a search for Hacker on google news; you'll see tons of results for computer criminals, virtually zero for the Linus-style hacker. It should be re-written to mostly discuss computer criminals with a small section devoted to experts.
___________________
Hacker = one who hacks security of a computer and breaks in
Cracker = one who cracks copy protection of a software piece
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.77.135.94 ( talk • contribs) .
Plenty of people (though few journalists) use the term hacker in the other senses used in this article. You're looking for Hacker (computer security), which discusses the meaning used by the media. There used to be a link to it at the start of the hacker article. — Pengo 15:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
See also the reference to the Hacker definition controversy, which used to dominate the article before separating, and covers this issue quite comprehensively. The current article covering of both these (technically accurate) senses is as close to NPOV as can be gotten on the topic while on the internet. Feel free to discuss your position with editors at the OED. — abb3w (too lazy to sign in)
"John Carmack, a widely recognized and influential game programmer."
Apparently he's so widely recognized and influnetial that no one's ever heard of him! I think I can speak for most people when I say that I've never heard of him.
All this stuff about him could be true but I think you're exagerrating when you say "widely recognized" and I really doubt the average gamer would know who he is. And if that's not the case then maybe you should point out to whom exactly is he "widely recognized" by?
I sincerely believe that the link and entry for Horatio Huxley does not deserve to be here. It was probably added by himself as some kind of self promotion stunt and reads like a CV. His is entry on Wikipedia previously contained false claims of his association with cDc, but this was removed. He is a relatively unknown character in South Africa who has only one claim to fame, and that is that he managed to write yet another key logger to demonstrate that you can capture online banking passwords. In fact, what he demonstrated in 2003 was already demonstrated previously by Nic Roets in 2001 and was covered by a national television station.
He managed to get a major South African news paper to do a story on this, and this same story was echoed in other publications. Otherwise, he is relatively unknown in the South African information security and hacker community and his entry and his references for credibility (dr_juz and Justin Shaw) are either fictional or insignificant. There are quite a number of black and white hat hackers in the South African scene who are certainly more noteworthy than this character and I wouldn't even go as far as saying any of them really deserve to be mentioned as notable hackers or security professionals on an international level.
I removed the following links from the External links section as probable link spam:
Several of the other links probably also warrant removal but these seem to be the most obvious. -- ElKevbo 14:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that hacker is the correct term for someone who breaks into a computer and it is the first thought that people think of. Cracker meant something else during the formative years of hacking both legal and illegal, and to use it retroactively to describe something that already in the public's mind of the definition would be wasteful and misleading.
I would like to mention that using the terms black hat and white hat are useless because depending on the frame of referrence, everyone is some shade of grey hat. It's a confusing term that sounds like it belongs in dungeons and dragons books and not to describe hackers.
It is silly, almost monty-python-esque to describe someone as wearing a coloured hat. It is also a lazy short hand and highly biased. Please fill out the description of the hacker and let the reader of the article make up their mind as to where the indiviual falls. -- Netw1z 13:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Why do they? I mean there is no reasing to do it. Even if it is a goal your probably gonna go to jail or something and be good after jail. Call of duty 05:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Who is the person in the photograph? And why is he in this article? I can't find any information about him. scskowron, 22:09, 24 June 2006
Here's a quote from the 1993 film Jurassic Park:
Lex: I'm a hacker!
Tim: That's what I said: you're a nerd.
Lex: I am not a computer nerd. I prefer to be called a hacker!
My understanding of this conversation is that "hacker" in this conversation meant simply hacking at a computer in a skilled manner. If this is true, the quote suggests that, as of 1993, the original term had not yet died. Gordeonbleu 17:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Per suggestion ElKevbo, adding discussion section. My position: Non-notable; unless further dicussion changes matters, (rv), and start banning IPs. Of course, I favor "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eis" too much to really qualify as a liberal in some things. Abb3w 05:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I put a deletion request for this category, please make comments and suggestions. A.J. 10:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I starded another CFD discussion about "Fooian hackers" categories, see Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Hackers_by_nationality. A.J. 10:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The section "Hacker: Highly skilled programmer" reads like a treatise on why people who are smarter than whoever wrote this shouldn't get a job and are just nerds anyway. A full third of the section is spent on saying that companies don't want to/shouldn't want to hire "hackers" (in the sense of highly skilled programmers), followed by a paragraph on how hackers tend to not get along with people. This is highly POV, and as someone who is proud to have been called a hacker (in the "master programmer" sense) by other hackers, I even find it insulting. There is no need to perpetuate negative prejudice against skilled computer specialists in the definition of this term; and even if its true that hackers are more likely to lack in social skills than the general population, I must point out that the article Artist does not spend two thirds of its substance to elaborate on how highly talented artists are statistically more likely to exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia or cut their ears off, and how companies should prefer to hire people who are only just creative enough to do the job at hand. 24.57.194.33 07:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Add a link to the major hacking event Def Con? www.defcon.org to check it out. I think it would be kind of cool, it shows how big and not really of a "in the closet" activity that hacking has really become. Thanks -Seth Nov 02, 2006
"Story of Mel" link: http://catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.37.45.26 ( talk) 00:26, December 18, 2006
Are 'beautiful' and 'elegant' really proper terms to describe programs in this article? They are logical constructs, not paintings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.177.48.227 ( talk) 17:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC).
"William Henry Gates III (Bill Gates) — is the co-founder and chairman of Microsoft Corporation. Although he personally demonstrated considerable personal coding skill early in his company's history" - I don't suppose we could see some source code or something?
Although the term "hacker" nowadays in every day language refers to a computer hacker, it is my understanding that a hacker was originally a term or title given to the people who's expertize specialized in certain very specific laws and regulations and sought loopholes in those laws and regulations to win cases for law firms. The term "computer hacker" was then given to people who were very proficient in computer language and programming. I am not sure if the term was first used for the people who broke into computer systems as they would be the ones who would need both the programming expertize and labelling of "computer hacker" though. 24.83.178.11 11:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)KnowledgeSeeker