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This was the text before I started a rewrite Filiocht:
Hilda Doolittle, better known by the pen name H.D. ( September 10, 1886 - September 27, 1961) was a United States Imagist poet and novelist. She was born in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
During H.D.'s adolescence in Pennsylvania, she befriended Marianne Moore and Ezra Pound. She enrolled at Bryn Mawr, but dropped out in 1911 and moved to England. In 1913, she married poet Richard Aldington, and in January of that year, three of her poems, "Hermes of the Ways," "Orchard," and "Epigram," were published in the journal Poetry.
In 1918, H.D. met Bryher, who would become and remain her companion and lover, despite H.D.'s marriage to Aldington and Bryher's marriages to Robert McAlmon and Kenneth Macpherson.
In 1933 and 1934, she was pupil and analysand of Sigmund Freud. H.D. later published a fictionalized account of this experience in Tribute to Freud.
After World War II, H.D. broke with Imagism, and her poetry began to reflect her interest in spiritualism, mysticism, ancient Greece, Egyptology, and astrology. These influences are particularly present in Trilogy.
Just one question: In 1921, Bryher contracted a marriage of convenience with Robert McAlmon which enabled him to fund his publishing ventures in Paris. What does this mean? How? Markalexander100 02:03, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I thought there was a policy at Wikipedia to never list articles under acronyms, and I would think that this would apply especially to an actual person with a real name (others, like NASA etc are more understandable)... surely most people would look her up with her real name, not H. D. (and obviously she would be linked from the disambiguation page as well)... Houshuang 21:01, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This sentence is unclear in meaning:
" Around this time, Doolittle entered into a relationship with a young art student named Frances Josepha Gregg. After spending part of 1910 living in New York City's Greenwich Village, she sailed to Europe with Gregg and her mother in 1911."
Was H.D. travelling with her own mother or with Gregg's?
If the former, the sentence would read better as
" Around this time, Doolittle entered into a relationship with a young art student named Frances Josepha Gregg. After spending part of 1910 living in New York City's Greenwich Village, she sailed to Europe with her mother and with Gregg."
If the latter, consider,
" Around this time, Doolittle entered into a relationship with a young art student named Frances Josepha Gregg. After spending part of 1910 living in New York City's Greenwich Village, she sailed to Europe with Gregg and with Gregg's mother, [Gregg's mother's name] in 1911.
I'll look for a bio with a clearer reference, but if anyone knows the answer feel free to change it.
A recent addition to this article identified Frances Gregg as a man and stated that both H.D. and Ezra Pound were romantically involved with Frances. I found this puzzling as while H.D.'s bisexuality is well documented I had never heard of Pound ever becoming sexually involved with a man. A google search and a look at "The Life of Ezra Pound" by Noel Stock soon made it clear that Frances Scott was a woman. I know the male version of Frances is usually spelled FrancIs, but I assumed Gregg was merely going by an unconventional spelling.
This same mistake appeared in the article about Pound and has been corrected.
Devil Doll 20:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed a reference to three way sexual encounters between H.D., Bryher and MacPherson as I cannot find any reliable verification. (The same poster who included this material also wrote about Ezra Pound's threeway encounters with women in the Pound article, material that was quickly removed by another contributor). If someone can come up with some verification about these alleged encounters, I'll consider myself corrected.
Devil Doll 20:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to update high school affiliations for Lehigh Valley people. Does anyone know where she went to high school? PAWiki 19:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what high school she attended, but it would have been in or near Upper Darby, Pa., because she moved there with her family when she was nine years old.
In my openion, this article is about Hilda Doolittle the person, not H.D. the pseudonym. I'd like to page move; thoughts? Ceoil 16:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Kudos to whoever wrote the intro paragraph to this article, for noting her breakaway from both the Imagist movement and Pound's influence. The first hit in searching for "hilda doolittle" on Google brings up a page on the site imagists.org, and I fear that could be misleading. Again, superb work. Enderandpeter ( talk) 17:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I've changed "the recently rediscovered works of Sappho" to just "Sappho." So far as I know, the Sappho H.D. would have read would have been the standard works that had long been in all the commonly available Greek texts; I can't see any way in which they were "rediscovered" in H.D.'s time (additional verses from papyri I think came mostly after H.D.) If anyone wants to keep the "rediscovered," please explain it in the text -- for instance, it could be argued that the existing works were "newly influential," though this would need references Strawberryjampot ( talk) 23:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I've changed the first reference to Ezra Pound from "the leading British Modernist poet Ezra Pound" to just "Ezra Pound," because 1) he's American and 2) surely he's too well known to need description (like Freud, later in the same paragraph, who is not described as "the prominent Viennese psychoanalyst.") Strawberryjampot ( talk) 15:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
is this still under copyright protection? she died in 1961, so arent all her works copyrighted for, i think, 80 years after her death? or am i totally off base on this? Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 23:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Let's gauge current consensus of who supports or opposes inclusion of an Infobox. Yworo ( talk) 23:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
See WP:DISRUPT; why is this poll occurring on multiple talk pages? I believe it would be more efficient to put the category up for deletion, as it's a disruptive category anyway-- there is no requirement for infoboxes, hence no reason for that template to exist. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 13:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
It's more than a little problematic that the article begins by stating that HD is best known for her association with two male poets. This dismisses the importance of her work on its own terms. I propose changing it from "best known for her association with" to "associated with". Taking out "best" would also make for a more objective statement. Qassandra ( talk) 14:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
After reading a rather short bio on her here and a longer one here I guess there is quite some info missing in the article and together with the fact that there is a lot of uncited text (also on personal life and psychoanalysis), its FA status might need a review. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 11:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to change citation styles to use "Cite" templates and Template:Sfn for the shortened footnotes. It would mean readers could more easily see which source is being referenced. As I understand it, adding the cite templates would add to the load time of the page, so there's a trade-off. Any thoughts or objections? Pinging @ Ceoil and Victoriaearle, who are active in improving the page. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 17:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm done with the templatification of the sources. I formatted the slightly complex reader's notes/intros/multiple chapter references in a way that makes sense to me. I'd be happy to hear if this works for others. During the review, I made notes for improvement in #Random stuff below. I can do another pass once others complete any expansion, so feel free to add sources that are formatted differently (esp. VE). Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 03:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
There are still quite a few sources returning HarvRef errors as they aren't used in the short notes (they can be seen by installing User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js). Is work still underway, or shall we delete, comment out, or move to Further reading the unused sources? Those are:
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:59, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
A glance at the biblio shows that it's riddled with important errors of two types: dating and categorization.
-The list hops at random between supplying dates of first publication and dates of authorship, with no indication of so doing. (Word to the wise: 60 year old bibliographies are almost never reliable for this kind of thing.)
-It furthermore lists individual poems as though they are collections, poems from collections as though they were never collected, and lists non-fiction works as though they were novels.
These bits I can fix myself in a few days time once I get the chance, if nobody else has.
There are, however, a few decisions which have to be made beyond mere correction of errors:
- A great many of H.D.'s works listed here were never published in her lifetime, and not just late works that never quite made it to press; many early and middle works weren't published until the '80s. This thus raises the question: should the entries be ordered by date of authorship or publication?
- [I'm now suddenly forgetting what I thought the other editorial questions I had here actually were... Maybe it will come to me later.]
On another related note, I'm currently doing work on H.D. and have a stack of a few dozen sources on H.D. in danger of falling down on top of me. I may not get a chance to comb through the whole article and sketch out what needs work, but if anyone wants to flag specific areas that really need either rewriting or better sourcing, I'd be happy to get on it once I get the chance time wise. Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius ( talk) 23:20, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
See https://artsandletters.org/awards/ (I suppose that could be turned into a reference somehow: I can't find an easy way to link to the full list, but you can find it by clicking on the headings there, or you can find HD by searching.)
HD's medal, for poetry, in 1960, was the first awarded to a female poet (the previous three poets were WH Auden, St. John Perse, and Jorge Guillen.) But the first woman to received the Award of Merit Medal was Enid Bagnold, for drama, in 1956. So we need to be a little careful about how we describe this award. Theramin ( talk) 00:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 04:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
How would other editors feel about:
Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 17:05, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
On the first point, I would worry that it would make the level 2 list of drop down sections a bit too “busy”. As far as I can see, the current structure makes perfect sense. If others thought it should be renamed to something other than “Career” (to, say, “Life and Work” or something like that) because it’s basically general biography, I’d have no objections.
On the second point, I’m really not sure of the utility of so doing. A Works Cited list is not the same as a Further/Suggested Reading list. The former is there to state what one has cited, not to guide the reader in their own study. The latter would want to be far more selective; I’d be happy to do one up - consisting of some of the main important critical/biographical works - if others thought it would be useful. Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius ( talk) 17:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
There's a little bit of flip-flopping in the article between referring to H.D. by her given last name and by her chosen non-de-plume. This kind of inconsistency isn't great: it could be confusing for readers not familiar with H.D., and looks untidy to those are.
We need to decide clearly: should the article refer to the poet born "Hilda Doolittle" as "Doolittle" or "H.D." throughout?
While of course referring to an article subject by last name is standard protocol for Wikipedia, H.D. is known ubiquitously by her initials, and virtually no serious scholarly source (at least for many many decades) refers to her by her last name.
For what its worth, I would feel pretty strongly that referring to H.D. by her last name "Doolittle" would be equivalent to calling the Icelandic singer "Guðmundsdóttir" throughout the article on Bjork.
I can anticipate the counter example of "A.E." George William Russell, who is "Russell" throughout his article, but this example is a lot less one-for-one as it looks, simply because H.D. was never known professionally as anything other than H.D. (excepting some work written under totally unrelated pseudonyms), whereas George William Russell was "George William Russell" in a lot of areas of his professional life, and modern scholarship uses his name much more often than they do "A.E." on the whole.
Either way, it's an important point to get some consensus on. Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius ( talk) 23:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
"Doolittle told him that she found her full name old fashioned and "quaint""
"H.D. told him that she found "Hilda Doolittle" to be an old fashioned and "quaint" name"
The problem I see, having now read this a few times and added some edits, is that it ambitiously seeks to combine both her personal and professional lives, which is unusual in a biographical article on here. It would be better structured, I think, if the two were separated, as they usually are. I understand the desire to tackle all of it chronologically and the idea that the two impacted each other, but that's often the case. I would separate all her relationship/marriage/pregnancy details into a personal section. In so doing, it would also make it easier to understand her actual work. Keystone18 ( talk) 17:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
HI, I wanted to link to Adalaide Morris a notable H.D. critic, but how do I do that on a reference? Thank you! LoveElectronicLiterature ( talk) 00:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
H.D. article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | H.D. is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 4, 2005. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This was the text before I started a rewrite Filiocht:
Hilda Doolittle, better known by the pen name H.D. ( September 10, 1886 - September 27, 1961) was a United States Imagist poet and novelist. She was born in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
During H.D.'s adolescence in Pennsylvania, she befriended Marianne Moore and Ezra Pound. She enrolled at Bryn Mawr, but dropped out in 1911 and moved to England. In 1913, she married poet Richard Aldington, and in January of that year, three of her poems, "Hermes of the Ways," "Orchard," and "Epigram," were published in the journal Poetry.
In 1918, H.D. met Bryher, who would become and remain her companion and lover, despite H.D.'s marriage to Aldington and Bryher's marriages to Robert McAlmon and Kenneth Macpherson.
In 1933 and 1934, she was pupil and analysand of Sigmund Freud. H.D. later published a fictionalized account of this experience in Tribute to Freud.
After World War II, H.D. broke with Imagism, and her poetry began to reflect her interest in spiritualism, mysticism, ancient Greece, Egyptology, and astrology. These influences are particularly present in Trilogy.
Just one question: In 1921, Bryher contracted a marriage of convenience with Robert McAlmon which enabled him to fund his publishing ventures in Paris. What does this mean? How? Markalexander100 02:03, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I thought there was a policy at Wikipedia to never list articles under acronyms, and I would think that this would apply especially to an actual person with a real name (others, like NASA etc are more understandable)... surely most people would look her up with her real name, not H. D. (and obviously she would be linked from the disambiguation page as well)... Houshuang 21:01, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This sentence is unclear in meaning:
" Around this time, Doolittle entered into a relationship with a young art student named Frances Josepha Gregg. After spending part of 1910 living in New York City's Greenwich Village, she sailed to Europe with Gregg and her mother in 1911."
Was H.D. travelling with her own mother or with Gregg's?
If the former, the sentence would read better as
" Around this time, Doolittle entered into a relationship with a young art student named Frances Josepha Gregg. After spending part of 1910 living in New York City's Greenwich Village, she sailed to Europe with her mother and with Gregg."
If the latter, consider,
" Around this time, Doolittle entered into a relationship with a young art student named Frances Josepha Gregg. After spending part of 1910 living in New York City's Greenwich Village, she sailed to Europe with Gregg and with Gregg's mother, [Gregg's mother's name] in 1911.
I'll look for a bio with a clearer reference, but if anyone knows the answer feel free to change it.
A recent addition to this article identified Frances Gregg as a man and stated that both H.D. and Ezra Pound were romantically involved with Frances. I found this puzzling as while H.D.'s bisexuality is well documented I had never heard of Pound ever becoming sexually involved with a man. A google search and a look at "The Life of Ezra Pound" by Noel Stock soon made it clear that Frances Scott was a woman. I know the male version of Frances is usually spelled FrancIs, but I assumed Gregg was merely going by an unconventional spelling.
This same mistake appeared in the article about Pound and has been corrected.
Devil Doll 20:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed a reference to three way sexual encounters between H.D., Bryher and MacPherson as I cannot find any reliable verification. (The same poster who included this material also wrote about Ezra Pound's threeway encounters with women in the Pound article, material that was quickly removed by another contributor). If someone can come up with some verification about these alleged encounters, I'll consider myself corrected.
Devil Doll 20:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to update high school affiliations for Lehigh Valley people. Does anyone know where she went to high school? PAWiki 19:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what high school she attended, but it would have been in or near Upper Darby, Pa., because she moved there with her family when she was nine years old.
In my openion, this article is about Hilda Doolittle the person, not H.D. the pseudonym. I'd like to page move; thoughts? Ceoil 16:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Kudos to whoever wrote the intro paragraph to this article, for noting her breakaway from both the Imagist movement and Pound's influence. The first hit in searching for "hilda doolittle" on Google brings up a page on the site imagists.org, and I fear that could be misleading. Again, superb work. Enderandpeter ( talk) 17:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I've changed "the recently rediscovered works of Sappho" to just "Sappho." So far as I know, the Sappho H.D. would have read would have been the standard works that had long been in all the commonly available Greek texts; I can't see any way in which they were "rediscovered" in H.D.'s time (additional verses from papyri I think came mostly after H.D.) If anyone wants to keep the "rediscovered," please explain it in the text -- for instance, it could be argued that the existing works were "newly influential," though this would need references Strawberryjampot ( talk) 23:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I've changed the first reference to Ezra Pound from "the leading British Modernist poet Ezra Pound" to just "Ezra Pound," because 1) he's American and 2) surely he's too well known to need description (like Freud, later in the same paragraph, who is not described as "the prominent Viennese psychoanalyst.") Strawberryjampot ( talk) 15:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
is this still under copyright protection? she died in 1961, so arent all her works copyrighted for, i think, 80 years after her death? or am i totally off base on this? Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 23:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Let's gauge current consensus of who supports or opposes inclusion of an Infobox. Yworo ( talk) 23:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
See WP:DISRUPT; why is this poll occurring on multiple talk pages? I believe it would be more efficient to put the category up for deletion, as it's a disruptive category anyway-- there is no requirement for infoboxes, hence no reason for that template to exist. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 13:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
It's more than a little problematic that the article begins by stating that HD is best known for her association with two male poets. This dismisses the importance of her work on its own terms. I propose changing it from "best known for her association with" to "associated with". Taking out "best" would also make for a more objective statement. Qassandra ( talk) 14:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
After reading a rather short bio on her here and a longer one here I guess there is quite some info missing in the article and together with the fact that there is a lot of uncited text (also on personal life and psychoanalysis), its FA status might need a review. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 11:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to change citation styles to use "Cite" templates and Template:Sfn for the shortened footnotes. It would mean readers could more easily see which source is being referenced. As I understand it, adding the cite templates would add to the load time of the page, so there's a trade-off. Any thoughts or objections? Pinging @ Ceoil and Victoriaearle, who are active in improving the page. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 17:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm done with the templatification of the sources. I formatted the slightly complex reader's notes/intros/multiple chapter references in a way that makes sense to me. I'd be happy to hear if this works for others. During the review, I made notes for improvement in #Random stuff below. I can do another pass once others complete any expansion, so feel free to add sources that are formatted differently (esp. VE). Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 03:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
There are still quite a few sources returning HarvRef errors as they aren't used in the short notes (they can be seen by installing User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js). Is work still underway, or shall we delete, comment out, or move to Further reading the unused sources? Those are:
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:59, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
A glance at the biblio shows that it's riddled with important errors of two types: dating and categorization.
-The list hops at random between supplying dates of first publication and dates of authorship, with no indication of so doing. (Word to the wise: 60 year old bibliographies are almost never reliable for this kind of thing.)
-It furthermore lists individual poems as though they are collections, poems from collections as though they were never collected, and lists non-fiction works as though they were novels.
These bits I can fix myself in a few days time once I get the chance, if nobody else has.
There are, however, a few decisions which have to be made beyond mere correction of errors:
- A great many of H.D.'s works listed here were never published in her lifetime, and not just late works that never quite made it to press; many early and middle works weren't published until the '80s. This thus raises the question: should the entries be ordered by date of authorship or publication?
- [I'm now suddenly forgetting what I thought the other editorial questions I had here actually were... Maybe it will come to me later.]
On another related note, I'm currently doing work on H.D. and have a stack of a few dozen sources on H.D. in danger of falling down on top of me. I may not get a chance to comb through the whole article and sketch out what needs work, but if anyone wants to flag specific areas that really need either rewriting or better sourcing, I'd be happy to get on it once I get the chance time wise. Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius ( talk) 23:20, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
See https://artsandletters.org/awards/ (I suppose that could be turned into a reference somehow: I can't find an easy way to link to the full list, but you can find it by clicking on the headings there, or you can find HD by searching.)
HD's medal, for poetry, in 1960, was the first awarded to a female poet (the previous three poets were WH Auden, St. John Perse, and Jorge Guillen.) But the first woman to received the Award of Merit Medal was Enid Bagnold, for drama, in 1956. So we need to be a little careful about how we describe this award. Theramin ( talk) 00:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 04:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
How would other editors feel about:
Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 17:05, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
On the first point, I would worry that it would make the level 2 list of drop down sections a bit too “busy”. As far as I can see, the current structure makes perfect sense. If others thought it should be renamed to something other than “Career” (to, say, “Life and Work” or something like that) because it’s basically general biography, I’d have no objections.
On the second point, I’m really not sure of the utility of so doing. A Works Cited list is not the same as a Further/Suggested Reading list. The former is there to state what one has cited, not to guide the reader in their own study. The latter would want to be far more selective; I’d be happy to do one up - consisting of some of the main important critical/biographical works - if others thought it would be useful. Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius ( talk) 17:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
There's a little bit of flip-flopping in the article between referring to H.D. by her given last name and by her chosen non-de-plume. This kind of inconsistency isn't great: it could be confusing for readers not familiar with H.D., and looks untidy to those are.
We need to decide clearly: should the article refer to the poet born "Hilda Doolittle" as "Doolittle" or "H.D." throughout?
While of course referring to an article subject by last name is standard protocol for Wikipedia, H.D. is known ubiquitously by her initials, and virtually no serious scholarly source (at least for many many decades) refers to her by her last name.
For what its worth, I would feel pretty strongly that referring to H.D. by her last name "Doolittle" would be equivalent to calling the Icelandic singer "Guðmundsdóttir" throughout the article on Bjork.
I can anticipate the counter example of "A.E." George William Russell, who is "Russell" throughout his article, but this example is a lot less one-for-one as it looks, simply because H.D. was never known professionally as anything other than H.D. (excepting some work written under totally unrelated pseudonyms), whereas George William Russell was "George William Russell" in a lot of areas of his professional life, and modern scholarship uses his name much more often than they do "A.E." on the whole.
Either way, it's an important point to get some consensus on. Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius ( talk) 23:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
"Doolittle told him that she found her full name old fashioned and "quaint""
"H.D. told him that she found "Hilda Doolittle" to be an old fashioned and "quaint" name"
The problem I see, having now read this a few times and added some edits, is that it ambitiously seeks to combine both her personal and professional lives, which is unusual in a biographical article on here. It would be better structured, I think, if the two were separated, as they usually are. I understand the desire to tackle all of it chronologically and the idea that the two impacted each other, but that's often the case. I would separate all her relationship/marriage/pregnancy details into a personal section. In so doing, it would also make it easier to understand her actual work. Keystone18 ( talk) 17:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
HI, I wanted to link to Adalaide Morris a notable H.D. critic, but how do I do that on a reference? Thank you! LoveElectronicLiterature ( talk) 00:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)