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In 1632, Sweden had not yet adopted the Gregorian Calendar, so his death is memorized on November 6. Since 1928, this is done by eating a special pastry topped with his portrait in marsipan, called Gustav Adolf-bakelse. This tradition is especially popular in Gothenburg, the city he founded. In Finland, the Swedish-speaking community celebrates November 6 as "the Swedish day".
This is just not encyclopedic (although oddly interesting). If included, it needs to go somewhere other than the middle of GA's career. JHK
Gustavus is a major character in the alternate history book 1632 by Eric Flint and its sequel 1633 (with more to follow). The books mention his "secret" person Captain Gars, which would appear to have a historical basis ( AltaVista failed to find any mention but Google came up trumps). Is this the sort of information which should appear for such a major historical figure? Actually I would assume that the Captain Gars nugget should be added Phil 10:54, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC) Added April 3, 2005 by JohnMc
Gustavus Adolphus is the name under which the Swedish king Gustav II Adolf generally is known to an English speaking audience. The discussion regarding the English, or Wikipedia names, of the Swedish monarchs is kept under Talk:List of Swedish monarchs. -- Mic 16:35, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Regarding Gustavus Adolphus there are several in different forms in use which are widely accepted, and not even the Swedish language convenstions are consistent on the issue. Currently there are a number of unresolved issues regarding the naming of Swedish monarchs. See
Unresolved naming issues for the Swedish monarchs for a discussion on this. (See also:
User talk:Sky#Regarding your editing style)--
Mic 12:09, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The Microsoft Encyclopedia lists the guy under "Gustav II Adolph (of Sweden)" and also two other encyclopedias I have looked at. The Encyclopedia Britannica even lists him under the Swedish name Gustav II Adolf (which I think is even better). I do not understand your point of view. Please have a look at User talk:Sky. Sky 08:36, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This article has no mention at all of pre-1630 Gustav fights. See Stanislaw_Koniecpolski#War_against_the_Swedes for some of his earlier campaigns info that you coul easily add here. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:39, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be at something like Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden? The current name is not the most commonly used name in English, by far... john k 20:11, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually, it should not be consistent, because usage changes over time. We already have Charles XII of Sweden and Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden, for instance. We could keep Gustav VI Adolf of Sweden (which is already weird, with the "v" ending Gustav and the "f" ending Adolf) and move this one to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden. The list of Swedish monarchs should attempt to be consistent, I think, but there's no need for the article titles to. john k 03:00, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Google returns about 212,000 hits for "Gustavus Adolphus" and only about about 1,100 for "Gustav II Adolph of Sweden". Limiting the search to English, it finds about 170,000 English pages for "Gustavus Adolphus" and only 1,070 English pages for "Gustav II Adolph of Sweden". NoAccount 16:39, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm in favour of the change in name but to follow common policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles the didget and the country should be in there eg:
Although as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Monarchical titles says:
So I think that or Gustavus II of Sweden or Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden or Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden would be better than just Gustavus Adolphus -- Philip Baird Shearer 01:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with you, however this gets us no where nearer to deciding if this article should be renamed, and if so to what name. So I propose that we vote on it. By using Approval voting and listing the options. One can vote for as many or as few options as one wishes too. Philip Baird Shearer
Add any additional names which you may think are appropriate to the list above. Support or Oppose any of the listed proposals. Voting more than once is encouraged with Approval voting. Philip Baird Shearer 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
What is the real point of the suggested move. if it is to assit people in finding the article, why won't redirects from all the likely forms of the name do the job? The form "Gustavus Adolphus" with no number is probably the best known in english, but is neither unambiguious, nor does it follow the usual naming conventions for articles on monarchs. The form "Gustavus II Adolphus" is not likley to help those knowing only the form without an inserted number (most english speakers with limited knowledge of the history involved) nor is it "correct". DES 16:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
After Peter deleted the existing votes, we have even more of a mess than before. Note that, once a request for move is listed on WP:RFM, we are not normally limited to the actual wording proposed. Changes and other alternatives are often considered, and implemented, are they not?
But note further that the change by Philip Baird Shearer was also done without discussion here, and it was wrongly implemented. As the article approval voting explains, the set of available options there are {+1,0}. In other words, opposing votes have no meaning. So it is quite misleading to call for opposing votes, at the same time the claim is made that the results will be interpreted as being "approval voting" which doesn't count them.
So I guess the first order of business is to redefine the voting process. Gene Nygaard 14:52, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
As for the statment that it is "This is about using either the Latin or the Swedish name. Not irrelevant arguments of spelling, whether to add "of Sweden" and especially not about non-notable alternatives like "Gustavus II Adolphus". That's just the same mistake as is commonly seen here; making up your own terminology because it seems more "correct". That's nothing but original research on a micro-level." I disagree because of Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Monarchical titles. These are Wikipedia guidelines for how to name a monarch Philip Baird Shearer 15:36, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
If this article is moved, then you should seriously consider moving these articles also:
If these aren't moved, then this shouldn't be either, if you wan't to be somewhat consistent. / Jebur 06:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In true approval voting there is no need for oppose votes, hence the name - people only state which of the presented options they find acceptable. People expressing opposition to an option can be helpful if it is qualified, but that's what the discussion section is for. When it comes to interpreting the results I'm sure it will be clear which option(s) have the most support. As it stands it's clearly between Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden and Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden, with the latter being favoured most.
Unless there are any objections I will move the article to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden tomorrow. violet/riga (t) 19:01, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay, so Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden is the second choice of many here and is acceptable to Peter. Should we agree that we move the article there? I've said on WP:RM that this discussion is extended until 2 June 2005 and I'm not in any rush to do it before then seeing as the talks are ongoing. violet/riga (t) 23:23, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Requested moves is not nearly as formal as, say, deletion, and I'd suggest that it's not even as formal as a content poll would be. It seems fairly clear that Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden would be an appropriate title that would be acceptable to most people, at least. I don't see why we should over-bureaucratize this. As to the other Gustav's, I'd suggest that the first four should all be at latinized versions of the names, as they are more commonly known by that in English. If you want to propose a new standard of using names in the language of the country (which would leave us with Felipe II of Spain), go ahead, although you tell me what we should do with Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor. john k 16:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Google searches are worthless for determining much of anything, since most sources on, say, Swedish history are not going to be online, so this only gives us a fairly narrow sample of things. At any rate, using google clearly works against you on Gustavus Adolphus - "Gustav II Adolph" gets 2,370 google hits while "Gustavus Adolphus" gets 124,000, and even when you take out references to "College" to try to exclude discussion of Gustavus Adolphus College, you get 37,900. This is a far more convincing google test than the ones you've been doing on the other kings, since it suggests an overwhelming superiority - only in such instances, I think (as opposed to ones where the two are within fairly narrow range of each other), can the google test have any value. john k 21:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
As the number needs to be part of the name to more clearly disambiguate from King G IV A in categories. Gustavus Adolphus and Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden should nevertheless redirect to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden, with a link to Gustavus Adolphus (disambiguation) at the top of the article. The dab page should mention something about the change in English usage, and the Swedish form should be used for Gustav V and Gustav VI Adolf. (We will still have to discuss whether the proper Swedish form ought to be Gustav or Gustaf for the modern kings, but that could be done somewhere else.) (This construction is part of the explanation of my vote, so please don't move the comment, but copy it and reply to it elsewhere if you like.) up◦land 07:26, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is anyone actually proposing a move to this specific location? It is really sloppy that this is the "official" version we are discussing, when nobody actually wants such a move. john k 16:26, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I came here at the somewhat desperate plea of Peter Isotalo, to take a look at the vote, and I must protest. I agree with Peter and Gene Nygaard that there is no interpreting the vote as it stands at present. I don't mean to sound harsh, I'm sure everybody's been doing their best, but Philip Baird Shearer's interpretation of Approval voting contradicts the article he links to, and contradicts itself internally also. It really won't do to have one instruction above the vote (Add **Support followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote) and the opposite instruction below it (Support or Oppose any of the listed proposals)! The first is approval voting, the second is not, and as Gene Nygaard says, the difference is significant. But let's try ignoring the specifics of approval voting for now, and just look at the fact that there is no telling which of the instructions voters have gone by, or have even noticed. Perhaps they've rolled their own compromise, or shut their eyes and pointed, I think that's what I would have done. How can we count oppose votes, when people didn't know whether to submit them or not? But how can we not count oppose votes, when people have submitted them and meant them to stand for something? Violet, you know how much I respect your work, but I suggest you too may easily have missed (in the general mess above) the contradictory instructions. Please don't move the article yet.
At the same time, Peter, while I understand your original call for a two-alternative vote, and reference to the vote at Talk:Swedish Social Democratic Party, the time for that is past, it can only confuse the issue further. I know that a coherent voting procedure is what you want, with alternatives the voters can understand and an outcome that can be interpreted, and by now approval voting offers the best chance of that. Five alternative names have been suggested now, not two. Even if the "of Sweden" is broken out because it will be added to any alternative chosen, it's still more than two. Bishonen | talk 23:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
After the trouble the voters have put in, I'm very sorry to suggest this, but it does have the virtue of being simple: set up an approval voting process with support votes only. Peter, perhaps you could do it, if Violet approves? Separate out the "of Sweden" business if there is consensus for doing that. And you and everybody else else should stop worrying about some of the proposed alternatives being in your view absurd. If they are absurd, they won't win the vote, surely. The arguments already made for and against the various alternatives may be consulted above, and need not in my view be repeated below: I suggest that new points only, and the approval vote itself, need be added below this line. (Please note btw that alternative 5 on the vote above has become doubled, and the voting on 5 and its ghost 6 is forking.) (No it hadn't, it was Gustav/Gustaf!)
Bishonen |
talk 23:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And I think it is a waste of time. Peter can you realy not tell which option is the most popular from the votes cast above? Bishonen who seems to be a disenterested party (as he/she has not cast a vote) can interpret the results, as can Gene Nygaard, violetriga and I. So why can't you? We can go throught the motions of another vote but why bother? This proposed re-vote reminds me of being on the first flight out of London to Frankfurt on a Monday morning. The flight is always full with the same people commuting, and if anyone does not know how to put on their seat belt by now they really should not be flying, the announcement explaining how to do it, although a requirement, is a waste of everyone's time. Philip Baird Shearer 15:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind a revote, although, again, the obsession with a "flawed procedure" seems counterproductive. The winner of this vote ( Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, which is, I will note, not my preferred option), seems fairly clear. But, whatever. I would add, though, that while I think the name should be latinized/anglicized, if we decide it should not be, I cannot see why it should be at the location it is now. Why shouldn't it be consistent with Gustav IV Adolf of Sweden and Gustav VI Adolf of Sweden? Gustav II Adolf of Sweden has also been demonstrated to be much more common than Gustav II Adolph of Sweden. The "f" variant should definitely be included, I think. john k 18:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This a project to write an encyclopaedia, not a project to create a European constitution. What ever my thoughts on this issue obviously there are a number of people who think style is more important than substance, so I will participate in another vote but it is a waste of everyone's time when there are better things to be doing on this project. BTW the best known C17th continental in the English speaking world is almost certainly William of Orange seeing as he has been in the news every July 12 for the last 30 years. Philip Baird Shearer 11:45, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The actual usual form in English. Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests using nationality for disambiguation, which will not be necessary here, unless some non-Swedish Gustavus Adolphus can be found. Compare Alexander the Great. (As a native Anglophone, I add that GA is probably the best known of the Swedish monarchs, with Christina of Sweden as runner-up). The 1911 Britannica uses Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus alternatively in its text. Septentrionalis 17:23, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why is Gustavus Adolphus a choice here? Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). john k 18:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Specifically: Pre-emptively disambiguate the names of monarchs of modern countries in the format "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}". This would suggest Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden or Gustav II Adolf of Sweden as the appropriate title. john k 18:41, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is the purpose of this rename? If the object is to have the most common possible search term be the actual title of the article, without a redirect, then the choice should be Gustavus Adolphus with no number, and no "of sweden". If the object is to have the most correct form, then it should be either Gustav II Adolph or Gustav II Adolf (I don't have a strong view on "ph" vs "f"). In any case Gustavus II Adolphus is a form not used historically, (by which I mean, in this case, at the time this monarch was alive, or not much thereafter) nor commonly used in modern accounts. DES
In any case, redircts from all forms suggested should be made to which ever form is chosen, and a dab page for other swedish monarchs of similar names should be created. This should remove the actual problems whatever choice is made here. DES 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The actual usual form in English. Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests using nationality for disambiguation, which will not be necessary here, unless some non-Swedish Gustavus Adolphus can be found. Compare Alexander the Great. (As a native Anglophone, I add that GA is probably the best known of the Swedish monarchs, with Christina of Sweden as runner-up). The 1911 Britannica uses Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus alternatively in its text. Septentrionalis 17:23, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-us -phus endings feel so artificial. The English actually joked about such already almost two centuries ago - Ernest, a younger son of George III potentially becoming monarch (before Victoria was born) was hailed by some sarcasts by featuring caricature names HM Ernestus Augustus I, possibly even Ernestulus Augustulus I. 62.78.106.159 20:54, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For reference, the original vote is here. The results of that were protested, hence this new vote.
Please indicate which of the proposed names you support – you can vote for as many as you like but please do not oppose any of them. Results will be interpreted by violet/riga (t) towards the end of 7 June 2005 using normal approval voting practices.
I have removed the votes of
See Special:Contributions/62.78.104.96 -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:18, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Better these things are discussed now and not at the end of the voting process, so that any disagreements can be settled before the votes are counted. It does not matter if it is a sock puppet vote, it might be. Do you think it reasonable for an IP address with no edit history to vote on this issue? Philip Baird Shearer 18:41, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do tend to look on IP addresses with apprehension and doubt but left it there in the hope that the decision could be made without that vote being counted/discounted – in other words it I would ignore it if it wouldn't have a bearing on the result. We'll see how it goes. violet/riga (t) 19:28, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do not like that my vote has been removed by that arbitrary and disgusting operation, apparently made by Mr Shearer. - You all can see some of my contributions, mostly to royalty articles. Many more of my contributions can be found under my Net-provider beginning 62.78. - such as to Danish royalty Louise of Hesse, and a couple of Danish-Norwegian generations surrounding her, as well as with kings of Jeusalem and issues related to those. I greatly doubt that you can find any other who has participated this vote and has interests (and contributions) in articles of issues I just mentioned. This is just clearly only an attempt of Shearer to liquidate some of opposition to his artificial names, as I detest those -us -phus endings. May I name Shearer as Philippus Bairdulus Shearurctus?? 62.78.105.43 21:03, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For reference, the vote will be closing shortly. violet/riga (t) 21:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The chosen name is Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. It has 11 votes compared to the nearest rival of Gustav II Adolf of Sweden, which has 10 (two of which could be arguably discounted. This does not mean that naming discussion have to end, but it should not be changed hastily and I think this should really be the end of it. violet/riga (t) 00:03, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What? All of you are letting the discussion lapse so quickly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.109.106 ( talk) 23:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Surely we should give both Julian and Gregorian dates for his death (and probably birth as well)? After all, Lützen was fought in Germany, and its date is usually given in the Gregorian. Whatever calendar Sweden may have used, it makes sense to at least give the Gregorian date in addition to the Julian. john k 08:35, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry I was so hasty in assuming all of you had run out of issues to debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.109.106 ( talk) 23:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
User:Tree&Leaf took out the phrase "and in Protestant propaganda as the Lion of the North" from the Lead and put in the sentence "He is sometimes called Gustavus Adolphus the Great". No edit summary, so I don't know why. I'm sorry, but I've changed it back. I'm Swedish, I was taught a lot of nationalist stuff about Gustav II Adolf at school, and I've just never heard that "the Great". Sometimes..? When? Please give a reference if you want to put it back. The Lion of the North, now, that I've heard, many times. Bishonen | talk 17:25, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Gustavus Adolphus, as such, is already part of the English language. Yes, this spelling, owes its origin to the Latin, but its script owes itself to the English. He has been known by this for centuries in our script. It is his anglicized name, which in this case, incidentally, is the same as his Latinate name. This is my opinion ... The epitaph, Great, can be added if you will ...
Oemb1905 06:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Both of them lead to the same article, "Battle of Rain". Were they same battle and if they were, why are there two different names in this page for it (and even different times)?
There is a statue of Gustavus Adolphus standing next to the altar in Ulm Cathedral in southern Germany. (Right next to the border of the Roman Catholic Bavaria). An image of the statue would add to the article, and the understanding of the German view of Gustavus Adolphus. -- Petri Krohn 22:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The following appears in the second paragraph of the "Military Commander" section :
"His character both in consistency of purpose and of amity with all his troops from commanding officers right down to the rank and file with whom he mixed easily as if another commoner, earned him unassailably documented fame which most commanders in chief would gladly accept as mere joking anecdotes."
I'm not sure what the last section is trying to say. For this reason i don't want to edit the sentence - could the author perhaps reword it?
Trugster 15:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
It is certainly a high style of writing. One could re-write it like this, even if I did not coin the original, ... "He was friendly with all his troops like a commoner, and there were plenty of stories about him that most people would regard as tall-tales."
Oemb1905 06:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I added this:
I base this on Dupuy, Evolution of Weapons & Warfare. Trekphiler 23:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
He singed the founding of University of Tartu, the oldest University in Estonia. I think this should be noted somewhere, I don't where would it be the most appropriate place to add this information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.10.181 ( talk) 11:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've heard that he is (or has to be) considered to be one of the worst war criminals ever before the times of the World Wars ? Is that true ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.234.33 ( talk) 18:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Gustav II Adolf was no more a war criminal than anyone else in human history, one could say he was less of a war criminal than mordern day war mongers, there was no Geneive Convention to break at the time. 21 Nov. 2008 Rytter —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryttar ( talk • contribs) 21:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
The result was no consensus. Vassyana ( talk) 08:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm still flabergasted as to why this title was rejected 2 yrs ago. Particularly when seeing how the other Swedish monarch biographies are titled. GoodDay ( talk) 20:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
It don't look good, Gustav I, Gustavus Adolphus, Gustav III, Gustav IV Adolf, Gustav V & Gustav VI Adolf? One of these things is not like the others? GoodDay ( talk) 20:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I propose a move to Gustavus Adolphus. The current title already avoids using his regnal ordinal and his Swedish name (Gustav Adolf), so there is hardly a reason to enforce consistency with other Swedish monarchs by the redundant "of Sweden". This figure is famous enough in the English-speaking world that he needs no disambiguation, especially not he inconsistent and rather arbitrary one he now has. Srnec ( talk) 18:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Gustav II Adolf was no more a war criminal than any other military or political leader in the history of mankind, perhaps less than our modern day war criminals, there was no Geneiva Convention at the time to break. Nov. 21, 2008 Rytter —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryttar ( talk • contribs) 20:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move at this time. Discussion has ceased for two weeks now, with no consensus forming for any of the naming options recommended. Continued discussion of this matter is encouraged and, in the event that a consensus does emerge, feel free to relist at WP:RM. JPG-GR ( talk) 19:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I requested this move for the sake of consistency with other Swedish monarchs. The current title has no form: it adopts the "common" Latinised form sans ordinal and attaches "of Sweden" as if that were needed. Either we use a "common" form that is easily recognisable, like Gustavus Adolphus, or we use the standardised form: the "middle" option which is current is a joke. Srnec ( talk) 00:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons.Relisted per request and active discussion. Cheers! Vassyana ( talk) 16:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no doubt that he was a revolutionary commander who pioneered innovative tactics, but I think this is taking it too far:
In a Gustavus' army, the units were extensively cross trained. Both cavalry and infantry could service the artillery— as his heavy cavalry did when turning captured artillery on the opposing Catholic Tercios at First Breitenfeld; pikemen could shoot—if not as accurately as those designated muskateers so a valuable firearm could be kept in the firing line, and his infantrymen and gunners were taught to ride, if needed. Napoleon thought highly of the achievement, and copied the tactics.
This has not been achieved by any army since so the idea of it occuring in the 17th century (indeed this was a time when military maneuvers were a lot more complicated) is dubious. It's not helped by the fact it is completely unsourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.217.88 ( talk) 11:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In the section on his legacy as a general this sentence is unclear: "These grouped in batteries, supported his more linearly deployed formations, the whole in his armies replaced the cumbersome and unmaneuverable traditional deep squares up to 50 ranks deep (Spanish Tercios), used in other pike and shot armies of the day." It isn't clear what "the whole" is referring to or even the what word "these" at the beginning of the sentence referring to. Artillery? In general, several of the paragraphs in the area are either clumsy or unclear. Johnor ( talk) 13:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
First off, this is a great article. The problem is that it that it only provides two minor references. Most of the material could therefore be seen as original research - which can be deleted! Please provide references and sources for this material(which is very interesting) to meet wiki standards. Jambo-numba1 ( talk) 18:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
To add to this problem one the main source is a fiction book, while it does do it's best to be historically "accurate" it is not an appropriate source for this article.--
Arrowcomics (
talk) 00:22, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
˝Gustavus Adolphus was killed at the Battle of Lützen, when, at a crucial point in the battle, he became separated from his troops while leading a cavalry charge into a dense smog of mist and gunpowder smoke.˝
Wasn't he killed by croatian light cavalry known as kyrissers?
Check out this quote ˝The first recorded cuirassiers were formed as 100-strong regiments of Austrian kyrissers recruited from Croatia in 1484 to serve the future Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian. They fought the Swedes and their allies in 1632 in Lützen and killed the Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus.˝
From Cuirassier article. 193.198.179.41 ( talk) 11:07, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
According to this article
In his first military action when a new king, he attacked eastern Denmark (now southern Sweden) and let his soldiers plunder towns and villages as was customary in contemporary warfare, but later strictly prohibited in his campaigns
However according to Battle of Breitenfeld (1631):
At the same time, the Protestant princes showed little interest in attaching themselves to the Swedish cause; Gustavus opted for “rough wooing.” In the ensuing months, his troops moved south into Brandenburg, taking and sacking the towns of Küstin and Frankfurt an der Oder
Apparently this happened later than the landing at Peenemünde in 1630 and thus no more than two years before his death in the Battle of Lützen. Thus it should certainly qualify for "later".
Top.Squark ( talk) 19:41, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
It could be that the sacking of these towns was an early form of total war and not so much the plundering that one allows to appease his troops. He was trying to persuade by force the protestant princes to his cause and not rewarding his men for a victory, there is a distinct difference. So one could say that he strictly forbid plundering but not persuading he may not have even seen the sacking of these towns as plundering but instead as a necessary action to win support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.218.243.176 ( talk) 16:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Both articles are correct, since apparently the plunder paragraph was introduced to the Kriegsartikel'/krigsartikeln only after the sack of Frankfurt (where the soldiers were granted the right to plunder) and Küstrin:
"After excesses of Swedish soldiers in the margraviate of Brandenburg in 1631 the war articles were amended by regulations against marauding and plundering. This became necessary because in the cause of the war the Swedish army more and more brutalized, which in turn resulted from the Swedish system of contributions, that is the feeding of the army from territories it had occupied [ bellum se ipsum alet]. With increasing duration of the war and accordingly the increasing exploitation of the occupied territories, this system became less efficient. As a result, acts of violence to gain food increased." translated from Prinz, Oliver C. (2005). Der Einfluss von Heeresverfassung und Soldatenbild auf die Entwicklung des Militärstrafrechts. Osnabrücker Schriften zur Rechtsgeschichte (in German). Vol. 7. Osnabrück: V&R unipress. pp. 40–41. ISBN 3899711297., referring to Kroener, Bernhard R. (1993). "Militärgeschichte des Mittelalters und der frühen Neuzeit bis 1648. Vom Lehnskrieger zum Söldner". In Neugebauer, Karl-Volker (ed.). Grundzüge der deutschen Militärgeschichte (in German). Vol. 1. Freiburg: Rombach. p. 32.. Skäpperöd ( talk) 22:05, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
One thing to add. Having a cite in German may make it difficult for all those monoglot Americans to find out more about this. So here's a recent academic book that does touch on this same subject written in English, and it was well reviewed if I remember correctly. the book also has info on the King's domestic reform of the major issue of the era: how to pay for your army.
Frost, Robert I. The Northern Wars, 1558-1721. Harlow: Longman, 2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.27.111.8 ( talk) 06:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
A short note: The Swedish and English translations don't match up (English equivalent of the Swedish would be "Swedish Day"). However, since I assume that the Finnish should be taken as the correct one and I don't speak said language, anyone who does should look at whether a small mistake has been made in either translation. -- Osquar F ( talk) 23:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
In 1632, Sweden had not yet adopted the Gregorian Calendar, so his death is memorized on November 6. Since 1928, this is done by eating a special pastry topped with his portrait in marsipan, called Gustav Adolf-bakelse. This tradition is especially popular in Gothenburg, the city he founded. In Finland, the Swedish-speaking community celebrates November 6 as "the Swedish day".
This is just not encyclopedic (although oddly interesting). If included, it needs to go somewhere other than the middle of GA's career. JHK
Gustavus is a major character in the alternate history book 1632 by Eric Flint and its sequel 1633 (with more to follow). The books mention his "secret" person Captain Gars, which would appear to have a historical basis ( AltaVista failed to find any mention but Google came up trumps). Is this the sort of information which should appear for such a major historical figure? Actually I would assume that the Captain Gars nugget should be added Phil 10:54, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC) Added April 3, 2005 by JohnMc
Gustavus Adolphus is the name under which the Swedish king Gustav II Adolf generally is known to an English speaking audience. The discussion regarding the English, or Wikipedia names, of the Swedish monarchs is kept under Talk:List of Swedish monarchs. -- Mic 16:35, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Regarding Gustavus Adolphus there are several in different forms in use which are widely accepted, and not even the Swedish language convenstions are consistent on the issue. Currently there are a number of unresolved issues regarding the naming of Swedish monarchs. See
Unresolved naming issues for the Swedish monarchs for a discussion on this. (See also:
User talk:Sky#Regarding your editing style)--
Mic 12:09, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The Microsoft Encyclopedia lists the guy under "Gustav II Adolph (of Sweden)" and also two other encyclopedias I have looked at. The Encyclopedia Britannica even lists him under the Swedish name Gustav II Adolf (which I think is even better). I do not understand your point of view. Please have a look at User talk:Sky. Sky 08:36, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This article has no mention at all of pre-1630 Gustav fights. See Stanislaw_Koniecpolski#War_against_the_Swedes for some of his earlier campaigns info that you coul easily add here. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:39, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be at something like Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden? The current name is not the most commonly used name in English, by far... john k 20:11, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually, it should not be consistent, because usage changes over time. We already have Charles XII of Sweden and Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden, for instance. We could keep Gustav VI Adolf of Sweden (which is already weird, with the "v" ending Gustav and the "f" ending Adolf) and move this one to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden. The list of Swedish monarchs should attempt to be consistent, I think, but there's no need for the article titles to. john k 03:00, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Google returns about 212,000 hits for "Gustavus Adolphus" and only about about 1,100 for "Gustav II Adolph of Sweden". Limiting the search to English, it finds about 170,000 English pages for "Gustavus Adolphus" and only 1,070 English pages for "Gustav II Adolph of Sweden". NoAccount 16:39, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm in favour of the change in name but to follow common policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles the didget and the country should be in there eg:
Although as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Monarchical titles says:
So I think that or Gustavus II of Sweden or Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden or Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden would be better than just Gustavus Adolphus -- Philip Baird Shearer 01:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with you, however this gets us no where nearer to deciding if this article should be renamed, and if so to what name. So I propose that we vote on it. By using Approval voting and listing the options. One can vote for as many or as few options as one wishes too. Philip Baird Shearer
Add any additional names which you may think are appropriate to the list above. Support or Oppose any of the listed proposals. Voting more than once is encouraged with Approval voting. Philip Baird Shearer 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
What is the real point of the suggested move. if it is to assit people in finding the article, why won't redirects from all the likely forms of the name do the job? The form "Gustavus Adolphus" with no number is probably the best known in english, but is neither unambiguious, nor does it follow the usual naming conventions for articles on monarchs. The form "Gustavus II Adolphus" is not likley to help those knowing only the form without an inserted number (most english speakers with limited knowledge of the history involved) nor is it "correct". DES 16:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
After Peter deleted the existing votes, we have even more of a mess than before. Note that, once a request for move is listed on WP:RFM, we are not normally limited to the actual wording proposed. Changes and other alternatives are often considered, and implemented, are they not?
But note further that the change by Philip Baird Shearer was also done without discussion here, and it was wrongly implemented. As the article approval voting explains, the set of available options there are {+1,0}. In other words, opposing votes have no meaning. So it is quite misleading to call for opposing votes, at the same time the claim is made that the results will be interpreted as being "approval voting" which doesn't count them.
So I guess the first order of business is to redefine the voting process. Gene Nygaard 14:52, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
As for the statment that it is "This is about using either the Latin or the Swedish name. Not irrelevant arguments of spelling, whether to add "of Sweden" and especially not about non-notable alternatives like "Gustavus II Adolphus". That's just the same mistake as is commonly seen here; making up your own terminology because it seems more "correct". That's nothing but original research on a micro-level." I disagree because of Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Monarchical titles. These are Wikipedia guidelines for how to name a monarch Philip Baird Shearer 15:36, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
If this article is moved, then you should seriously consider moving these articles also:
If these aren't moved, then this shouldn't be either, if you wan't to be somewhat consistent. / Jebur 06:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In true approval voting there is no need for oppose votes, hence the name - people only state which of the presented options they find acceptable. People expressing opposition to an option can be helpful if it is qualified, but that's what the discussion section is for. When it comes to interpreting the results I'm sure it will be clear which option(s) have the most support. As it stands it's clearly between Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden and Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden, with the latter being favoured most.
Unless there are any objections I will move the article to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden tomorrow. violet/riga (t) 19:01, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay, so Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden is the second choice of many here and is acceptable to Peter. Should we agree that we move the article there? I've said on WP:RM that this discussion is extended until 2 June 2005 and I'm not in any rush to do it before then seeing as the talks are ongoing. violet/riga (t) 23:23, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Requested moves is not nearly as formal as, say, deletion, and I'd suggest that it's not even as formal as a content poll would be. It seems fairly clear that Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden would be an appropriate title that would be acceptable to most people, at least. I don't see why we should over-bureaucratize this. As to the other Gustav's, I'd suggest that the first four should all be at latinized versions of the names, as they are more commonly known by that in English. If you want to propose a new standard of using names in the language of the country (which would leave us with Felipe II of Spain), go ahead, although you tell me what we should do with Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor. john k 16:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Google searches are worthless for determining much of anything, since most sources on, say, Swedish history are not going to be online, so this only gives us a fairly narrow sample of things. At any rate, using google clearly works against you on Gustavus Adolphus - "Gustav II Adolph" gets 2,370 google hits while "Gustavus Adolphus" gets 124,000, and even when you take out references to "College" to try to exclude discussion of Gustavus Adolphus College, you get 37,900. This is a far more convincing google test than the ones you've been doing on the other kings, since it suggests an overwhelming superiority - only in such instances, I think (as opposed to ones where the two are within fairly narrow range of each other), can the google test have any value. john k 21:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
As the number needs to be part of the name to more clearly disambiguate from King G IV A in categories. Gustavus Adolphus and Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden should nevertheless redirect to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden, with a link to Gustavus Adolphus (disambiguation) at the top of the article. The dab page should mention something about the change in English usage, and the Swedish form should be used for Gustav V and Gustav VI Adolf. (We will still have to discuss whether the proper Swedish form ought to be Gustav or Gustaf for the modern kings, but that could be done somewhere else.) (This construction is part of the explanation of my vote, so please don't move the comment, but copy it and reply to it elsewhere if you like.) up◦land 07:26, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is anyone actually proposing a move to this specific location? It is really sloppy that this is the "official" version we are discussing, when nobody actually wants such a move. john k 16:26, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
I came here at the somewhat desperate plea of Peter Isotalo, to take a look at the vote, and I must protest. I agree with Peter and Gene Nygaard that there is no interpreting the vote as it stands at present. I don't mean to sound harsh, I'm sure everybody's been doing their best, but Philip Baird Shearer's interpretation of Approval voting contradicts the article he links to, and contradicts itself internally also. It really won't do to have one instruction above the vote (Add **Support followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote) and the opposite instruction below it (Support or Oppose any of the listed proposals)! The first is approval voting, the second is not, and as Gene Nygaard says, the difference is significant. But let's try ignoring the specifics of approval voting for now, and just look at the fact that there is no telling which of the instructions voters have gone by, or have even noticed. Perhaps they've rolled their own compromise, or shut their eyes and pointed, I think that's what I would have done. How can we count oppose votes, when people didn't know whether to submit them or not? But how can we not count oppose votes, when people have submitted them and meant them to stand for something? Violet, you know how much I respect your work, but I suggest you too may easily have missed (in the general mess above) the contradictory instructions. Please don't move the article yet.
At the same time, Peter, while I understand your original call for a two-alternative vote, and reference to the vote at Talk:Swedish Social Democratic Party, the time for that is past, it can only confuse the issue further. I know that a coherent voting procedure is what you want, with alternatives the voters can understand and an outcome that can be interpreted, and by now approval voting offers the best chance of that. Five alternative names have been suggested now, not two. Even if the "of Sweden" is broken out because it will be added to any alternative chosen, it's still more than two. Bishonen | talk 23:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
After the trouble the voters have put in, I'm very sorry to suggest this, but it does have the virtue of being simple: set up an approval voting process with support votes only. Peter, perhaps you could do it, if Violet approves? Separate out the "of Sweden" business if there is consensus for doing that. And you and everybody else else should stop worrying about some of the proposed alternatives being in your view absurd. If they are absurd, they won't win the vote, surely. The arguments already made for and against the various alternatives may be consulted above, and need not in my view be repeated below: I suggest that new points only, and the approval vote itself, need be added below this line. (Please note btw that alternative 5 on the vote above has become doubled, and the voting on 5 and its ghost 6 is forking.) (No it hadn't, it was Gustav/Gustaf!)
Bishonen |
talk 23:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And I think it is a waste of time. Peter can you realy not tell which option is the most popular from the votes cast above? Bishonen who seems to be a disenterested party (as he/she has not cast a vote) can interpret the results, as can Gene Nygaard, violetriga and I. So why can't you? We can go throught the motions of another vote but why bother? This proposed re-vote reminds me of being on the first flight out of London to Frankfurt on a Monday morning. The flight is always full with the same people commuting, and if anyone does not know how to put on their seat belt by now they really should not be flying, the announcement explaining how to do it, although a requirement, is a waste of everyone's time. Philip Baird Shearer 15:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind a revote, although, again, the obsession with a "flawed procedure" seems counterproductive. The winner of this vote ( Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, which is, I will note, not my preferred option), seems fairly clear. But, whatever. I would add, though, that while I think the name should be latinized/anglicized, if we decide it should not be, I cannot see why it should be at the location it is now. Why shouldn't it be consistent with Gustav IV Adolf of Sweden and Gustav VI Adolf of Sweden? Gustav II Adolf of Sweden has also been demonstrated to be much more common than Gustav II Adolph of Sweden. The "f" variant should definitely be included, I think. john k 18:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This a project to write an encyclopaedia, not a project to create a European constitution. What ever my thoughts on this issue obviously there are a number of people who think style is more important than substance, so I will participate in another vote but it is a waste of everyone's time when there are better things to be doing on this project. BTW the best known C17th continental in the English speaking world is almost certainly William of Orange seeing as he has been in the news every July 12 for the last 30 years. Philip Baird Shearer 11:45, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The actual usual form in English. Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests using nationality for disambiguation, which will not be necessary here, unless some non-Swedish Gustavus Adolphus can be found. Compare Alexander the Great. (As a native Anglophone, I add that GA is probably the best known of the Swedish monarchs, with Christina of Sweden as runner-up). The 1911 Britannica uses Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus alternatively in its text. Septentrionalis 17:23, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why is Gustavus Adolphus a choice here? Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). john k 18:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Specifically: Pre-emptively disambiguate the names of monarchs of modern countries in the format "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}". This would suggest Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden or Gustav II Adolf of Sweden as the appropriate title. john k 18:41, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is the purpose of this rename? If the object is to have the most common possible search term be the actual title of the article, without a redirect, then the choice should be Gustavus Adolphus with no number, and no "of sweden". If the object is to have the most correct form, then it should be either Gustav II Adolph or Gustav II Adolf (I don't have a strong view on "ph" vs "f"). In any case Gustavus II Adolphus is a form not used historically, (by which I mean, in this case, at the time this monarch was alive, or not much thereafter) nor commonly used in modern accounts. DES
In any case, redircts from all forms suggested should be made to which ever form is chosen, and a dab page for other swedish monarchs of similar names should be created. This should remove the actual problems whatever choice is made here. DES 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The actual usual form in English. Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests using nationality for disambiguation, which will not be necessary here, unless some non-Swedish Gustavus Adolphus can be found. Compare Alexander the Great. (As a native Anglophone, I add that GA is probably the best known of the Swedish monarchs, with Christina of Sweden as runner-up). The 1911 Britannica uses Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus alternatively in its text. Septentrionalis 17:23, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-us -phus endings feel so artificial. The English actually joked about such already almost two centuries ago - Ernest, a younger son of George III potentially becoming monarch (before Victoria was born) was hailed by some sarcasts by featuring caricature names HM Ernestus Augustus I, possibly even Ernestulus Augustulus I. 62.78.106.159 20:54, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For reference, the original vote is here. The results of that were protested, hence this new vote.
Please indicate which of the proposed names you support – you can vote for as many as you like but please do not oppose any of them. Results will be interpreted by violet/riga (t) towards the end of 7 June 2005 using normal approval voting practices.
I have removed the votes of
See Special:Contributions/62.78.104.96 -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:18, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Better these things are discussed now and not at the end of the voting process, so that any disagreements can be settled before the votes are counted. It does not matter if it is a sock puppet vote, it might be. Do you think it reasonable for an IP address with no edit history to vote on this issue? Philip Baird Shearer 18:41, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do tend to look on IP addresses with apprehension and doubt but left it there in the hope that the decision could be made without that vote being counted/discounted – in other words it I would ignore it if it wouldn't have a bearing on the result. We'll see how it goes. violet/riga (t) 19:28, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do not like that my vote has been removed by that arbitrary and disgusting operation, apparently made by Mr Shearer. - You all can see some of my contributions, mostly to royalty articles. Many more of my contributions can be found under my Net-provider beginning 62.78. - such as to Danish royalty Louise of Hesse, and a couple of Danish-Norwegian generations surrounding her, as well as with kings of Jeusalem and issues related to those. I greatly doubt that you can find any other who has participated this vote and has interests (and contributions) in articles of issues I just mentioned. This is just clearly only an attempt of Shearer to liquidate some of opposition to his artificial names, as I detest those -us -phus endings. May I name Shearer as Philippus Bairdulus Shearurctus?? 62.78.105.43 21:03, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For reference, the vote will be closing shortly. violet/riga (t) 21:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The chosen name is Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. It has 11 votes compared to the nearest rival of Gustav II Adolf of Sweden, which has 10 (two of which could be arguably discounted. This does not mean that naming discussion have to end, but it should not be changed hastily and I think this should really be the end of it. violet/riga (t) 00:03, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What? All of you are letting the discussion lapse so quickly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.109.106 ( talk) 23:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Surely we should give both Julian and Gregorian dates for his death (and probably birth as well)? After all, Lützen was fought in Germany, and its date is usually given in the Gregorian. Whatever calendar Sweden may have used, it makes sense to at least give the Gregorian date in addition to the Julian. john k 08:35, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry I was so hasty in assuming all of you had run out of issues to debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.109.106 ( talk) 23:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
User:Tree&Leaf took out the phrase "and in Protestant propaganda as the Lion of the North" from the Lead and put in the sentence "He is sometimes called Gustavus Adolphus the Great". No edit summary, so I don't know why. I'm sorry, but I've changed it back. I'm Swedish, I was taught a lot of nationalist stuff about Gustav II Adolf at school, and I've just never heard that "the Great". Sometimes..? When? Please give a reference if you want to put it back. The Lion of the North, now, that I've heard, many times. Bishonen | talk 17:25, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Gustavus Adolphus, as such, is already part of the English language. Yes, this spelling, owes its origin to the Latin, but its script owes itself to the English. He has been known by this for centuries in our script. It is his anglicized name, which in this case, incidentally, is the same as his Latinate name. This is my opinion ... The epitaph, Great, can be added if you will ...
Oemb1905 06:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Both of them lead to the same article, "Battle of Rain". Were they same battle and if they were, why are there two different names in this page for it (and even different times)?
There is a statue of Gustavus Adolphus standing next to the altar in Ulm Cathedral in southern Germany. (Right next to the border of the Roman Catholic Bavaria). An image of the statue would add to the article, and the understanding of the German view of Gustavus Adolphus. -- Petri Krohn 22:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The following appears in the second paragraph of the "Military Commander" section :
"His character both in consistency of purpose and of amity with all his troops from commanding officers right down to the rank and file with whom he mixed easily as if another commoner, earned him unassailably documented fame which most commanders in chief would gladly accept as mere joking anecdotes."
I'm not sure what the last section is trying to say. For this reason i don't want to edit the sentence - could the author perhaps reword it?
Trugster 15:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
It is certainly a high style of writing. One could re-write it like this, even if I did not coin the original, ... "He was friendly with all his troops like a commoner, and there were plenty of stories about him that most people would regard as tall-tales."
Oemb1905 06:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I added this:
I base this on Dupuy, Evolution of Weapons & Warfare. Trekphiler 23:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
He singed the founding of University of Tartu, the oldest University in Estonia. I think this should be noted somewhere, I don't where would it be the most appropriate place to add this information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.10.181 ( talk) 11:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've heard that he is (or has to be) considered to be one of the worst war criminals ever before the times of the World Wars ? Is that true ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.234.33 ( talk) 18:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Gustav II Adolf was no more a war criminal than anyone else in human history, one could say he was less of a war criminal than mordern day war mongers, there was no Geneive Convention to break at the time. 21 Nov. 2008 Rytter —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryttar ( talk • contribs) 21:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
The result was no consensus. Vassyana ( talk) 08:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm still flabergasted as to why this title was rejected 2 yrs ago. Particularly when seeing how the other Swedish monarch biographies are titled. GoodDay ( talk) 20:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
It don't look good, Gustav I, Gustavus Adolphus, Gustav III, Gustav IV Adolf, Gustav V & Gustav VI Adolf? One of these things is not like the others? GoodDay ( talk) 20:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I propose a move to Gustavus Adolphus. The current title already avoids using his regnal ordinal and his Swedish name (Gustav Adolf), so there is hardly a reason to enforce consistency with other Swedish monarchs by the redundant "of Sweden". This figure is famous enough in the English-speaking world that he needs no disambiguation, especially not he inconsistent and rather arbitrary one he now has. Srnec ( talk) 18:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Gustav II Adolf was no more a war criminal than any other military or political leader in the history of mankind, perhaps less than our modern day war criminals, there was no Geneiva Convention at the time to break. Nov. 21, 2008 Rytter —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryttar ( talk • contribs) 20:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move at this time. Discussion has ceased for two weeks now, with no consensus forming for any of the naming options recommended. Continued discussion of this matter is encouraged and, in the event that a consensus does emerge, feel free to relist at WP:RM. JPG-GR ( talk) 19:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I requested this move for the sake of consistency with other Swedish monarchs. The current title has no form: it adopts the "common" Latinised form sans ordinal and attaches "of Sweden" as if that were needed. Either we use a "common" form that is easily recognisable, like Gustavus Adolphus, or we use the standardised form: the "middle" option which is current is a joke. Srnec ( talk) 00:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons.Relisted per request and active discussion. Cheers! Vassyana ( talk) 16:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no doubt that he was a revolutionary commander who pioneered innovative tactics, but I think this is taking it too far:
In a Gustavus' army, the units were extensively cross trained. Both cavalry and infantry could service the artillery— as his heavy cavalry did when turning captured artillery on the opposing Catholic Tercios at First Breitenfeld; pikemen could shoot—if not as accurately as those designated muskateers so a valuable firearm could be kept in the firing line, and his infantrymen and gunners were taught to ride, if needed. Napoleon thought highly of the achievement, and copied the tactics.
This has not been achieved by any army since so the idea of it occuring in the 17th century (indeed this was a time when military maneuvers were a lot more complicated) is dubious. It's not helped by the fact it is completely unsourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.217.88 ( talk) 11:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In the section on his legacy as a general this sentence is unclear: "These grouped in batteries, supported his more linearly deployed formations, the whole in his armies replaced the cumbersome and unmaneuverable traditional deep squares up to 50 ranks deep (Spanish Tercios), used in other pike and shot armies of the day." It isn't clear what "the whole" is referring to or even the what word "these" at the beginning of the sentence referring to. Artillery? In general, several of the paragraphs in the area are either clumsy or unclear. Johnor ( talk) 13:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
First off, this is a great article. The problem is that it that it only provides two minor references. Most of the material could therefore be seen as original research - which can be deleted! Please provide references and sources for this material(which is very interesting) to meet wiki standards. Jambo-numba1 ( talk) 18:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
To add to this problem one the main source is a fiction book, while it does do it's best to be historically "accurate" it is not an appropriate source for this article.--
Arrowcomics (
talk) 00:22, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
˝Gustavus Adolphus was killed at the Battle of Lützen, when, at a crucial point in the battle, he became separated from his troops while leading a cavalry charge into a dense smog of mist and gunpowder smoke.˝
Wasn't he killed by croatian light cavalry known as kyrissers?
Check out this quote ˝The first recorded cuirassiers were formed as 100-strong regiments of Austrian kyrissers recruited from Croatia in 1484 to serve the future Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian. They fought the Swedes and their allies in 1632 in Lützen and killed the Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus.˝
From Cuirassier article. 193.198.179.41 ( talk) 11:07, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
According to this article
In his first military action when a new king, he attacked eastern Denmark (now southern Sweden) and let his soldiers plunder towns and villages as was customary in contemporary warfare, but later strictly prohibited in his campaigns
However according to Battle of Breitenfeld (1631):
At the same time, the Protestant princes showed little interest in attaching themselves to the Swedish cause; Gustavus opted for “rough wooing.” In the ensuing months, his troops moved south into Brandenburg, taking and sacking the towns of Küstin and Frankfurt an der Oder
Apparently this happened later than the landing at Peenemünde in 1630 and thus no more than two years before his death in the Battle of Lützen. Thus it should certainly qualify for "later".
Top.Squark ( talk) 19:41, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
It could be that the sacking of these towns was an early form of total war and not so much the plundering that one allows to appease his troops. He was trying to persuade by force the protestant princes to his cause and not rewarding his men for a victory, there is a distinct difference. So one could say that he strictly forbid plundering but not persuading he may not have even seen the sacking of these towns as plundering but instead as a necessary action to win support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.218.243.176 ( talk) 16:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Both articles are correct, since apparently the plunder paragraph was introduced to the Kriegsartikel'/krigsartikeln only after the sack of Frankfurt (where the soldiers were granted the right to plunder) and Küstrin:
"After excesses of Swedish soldiers in the margraviate of Brandenburg in 1631 the war articles were amended by regulations against marauding and plundering. This became necessary because in the cause of the war the Swedish army more and more brutalized, which in turn resulted from the Swedish system of contributions, that is the feeding of the army from territories it had occupied [ bellum se ipsum alet]. With increasing duration of the war and accordingly the increasing exploitation of the occupied territories, this system became less efficient. As a result, acts of violence to gain food increased." translated from Prinz, Oliver C. (2005). Der Einfluss von Heeresverfassung und Soldatenbild auf die Entwicklung des Militärstrafrechts. Osnabrücker Schriften zur Rechtsgeschichte (in German). Vol. 7. Osnabrück: V&R unipress. pp. 40–41. ISBN 3899711297., referring to Kroener, Bernhard R. (1993). "Militärgeschichte des Mittelalters und der frühen Neuzeit bis 1648. Vom Lehnskrieger zum Söldner". In Neugebauer, Karl-Volker (ed.). Grundzüge der deutschen Militärgeschichte (in German). Vol. 1. Freiburg: Rombach. p. 32.. Skäpperöd ( talk) 22:05, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
One thing to add. Having a cite in German may make it difficult for all those monoglot Americans to find out more about this. So here's a recent academic book that does touch on this same subject written in English, and it was well reviewed if I remember correctly. the book also has info on the King's domestic reform of the major issue of the era: how to pay for your army.
Frost, Robert I. The Northern Wars, 1558-1721. Harlow: Longman, 2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.27.111.8 ( talk) 06:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
A short note: The Swedish and English translations don't match up (English equivalent of the Swedish would be "Swedish Day"). However, since I assume that the Finnish should be taken as the correct one and I don't speak said language, anyone who does should look at whether a small mistake has been made in either translation. -- Osquar F ( talk) 23:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC)