This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
How would you establish a date for the Great Apostasy? Can you name the year or the decade that the last clergyman died, or any other specific event? Even if it was a gradual process, there should be some event or narrow time frame you can point to and say, because of historical evidence that such and such was said, or such and such was done, the Great Apostasy was definitely complete by this time. This is the case for the other items on the chart. Wesley 17:05 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
-- 207.242.93.10 00:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)::
Mkmcconn stated: "It is part of Mormon propaganda that Protestants have a doctrine of a "great apostasy"."
Rmhermen asked "Which denominations use this actual term?[:the Great Apostasy]"
Wesley said and asked: "The continuity in [the] teaching and liturgy [of the popes and patriarchs] is also historically demonstrable through examination of representative writings, and seeing which books and letters were being circulated in different areas. How does Mormonism interpret such historical evidence?"
To answer your question, one place that Ignatius speaks of the roles of bishops, presbyters (priests) and deacons is in his Epistle to the Ephesians, particularly chapters IV, V, VI, and XX. You also see many references to the Eucharist there. It's at the same site at http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-16.htm#P1093_206499. This is one of the letters Ignatius wrote after his arrest, while being transported to Rome to be executed. In chapter XI, he also mentions that the Christians in Ephesus "have always been of the same mind with the apostles through the power of Jesus Christ." Note that although he mentions the apostles in this letter, it is the bishops, presbyters and deacons to whom he asks them to be subject. To find more references, you may need to open each epistle and use your browser's "find" command to find occurrences of "bishop" on that page; at least that's what seems to work best for me on that site. Happy reading! Wesley 22:04 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I want to come back to the issue of what the Mormon view of historical evidence is in regard to the continuation of the early Christian church. While there may be some Mormon scholars out there who have touched on various historical records around and continuing shortly after the time of the Bible, there is no official LDS church comments on these records...or rather, there is not a line by line commentary...at most maybe just a few comments about the records in general. But under the view of confirmation holism in the philosophy of science, this gap presents no problem. Presuming the validity of confirmation holism, there would be little problem of reconciling the historical evidence to fit Mormonism should intelligent Mormons put their minds to it. What theories they would develop around each record, I cannot say, but under the view on confirmatin holism, it should be possible. B 23:20 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'm reminded of a conversation Gregory of Nyssa reports having in a dream with his then departed older sister Macrina. In the dialogue, Gregory questions the resurrection of the dead and raises a number of practical objections to it, such as whether old men will be resurrected in their old decrepit bodies, and infants in their infant bodies, and many similar problems. In response, Macrina smiled gently and said it was like listening to a group of men who had heard of sunshine but never seen it, sit around arguing about what sunshine was like, speculating and debating throughout the night. When dawn came and they saw the sun shine forth, they together said "Oh! Of course!"
More to the point of this article, perhaps it would suffice to say that the historical record now available to us fails to support the sort of apostasy the LDS church assumes, but the LDS and its members believe in the Great Apostasy because they believe what Joseph Smith Jr. reports concerning the various visions and revelations he received? Wesley 04:06, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I've offered some responses to Protestant claims under the Catholic/Orthodox heading at the end, but I fear I may be too argumentative/POV, and the format that's evolving may not be the best. I simply felt that some of the "Claims" subheadings earlier deserved some sort of response; it could probably be better done though. Suggestions for improvement are more than welcome. Thanks. Wesley 05:13, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Randy and Wesley (and whoever), would you give some suggestions for better headings than "claim:..."? They strike me as un-encyclopedically worded, long and awkward (although I wrote them). Mkmcconn 06:55, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I have come across few Wikipedia articles that are as shameless as this one. POV abounds, assertions about God are accepted as proven facts, and apologism without citation is indeed the backbone of the article.
Attempting rework to remove some of the most blatant and obvious POV.
Sukiari ( talk) 02:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted to say I thought the article as it is now provides a very good, unbiased view of both main sides (in modern days, mainly more fundamentalist Protestants with one extreme of belief in support of the Great Apostasy and the other side mainly being the Catholic Church and it's self-defense) as well as moderates (mostly evangelical Protestants who believe the Catholic Chruch is still legitmate but question infalibility and believe it has on certain issues fallen into error). Each section simply explained each main side and its main points, without any bias or sense that one side is more right than the other. [And, for clarification, by bias I mean outside bias. For example, if the Catholic Church is asked its position on this subject, its answer will have a Catholic bias, but it is supposed to, because it is their point of view. The important thing is that the written explination for any denomination's side has no influence from another side.] I was expecting to find some overall bias, having just read many articles about Christianity in general, in which would be edited by Catholics and have a Catholic slant to the whole article and then edited by Protestants and have a Protestant slant, etc. But this article has no overall slant; I only wish other articles involving Christian theology were like this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.61.100.127 ( talk • contribs) .
I suggest that the Catholic understanding of the Church's final trial as outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC, 675) [1] be added to the Catholic section of this article. Essentially, the Roman Catholic Church believes that there will be a final trial preceding Christ's second coming that will offer humanity peace in exchange for apostasy from the truth. This would represent a Catholic understanding of the Great Apostasy. -- Dreas 18:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I rank myself as a casual reader of this article. Jehovah's Witnesses has been my family's religion since the Bible Student days of Charles Taze Russell. When I was a college student, I avoided writing papers concerning strong Witness beliefs. My views of the Witnesses prevented me from neutral academic work. This article is not neutral in tone. Some detachment from the topic might be an improvement. Were this not wikipedia, I would never pay for the content. Sitting in my home or walking down the block, I could receive the same biased info for free. 75Janice ( talk) 23:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)75Janice 75Janice ( talk) 23:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
This article is virtually unreadable, and full of unsourced information from multiple biased POVs. It seems like this was pretty much abandoned due to the impossibility of regulating it. This needs to have the "reset" button hit, and be locked down from casual editing. Unless an individual has a background in religious history, such as a degree in a history field they should not be editing it based on stuff they found on the internet and heard in church.
Just seems like the vast majority of editing has been done by people with a stake in the argument. Cabazap ( talk) 03:56, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I have been reviewing the "The dangers of theology" for a bit and I am of the opinion that this section needs either a seriously extensive rewrite, or it needs to be removed. There are some very interesting claims with no citations whatsoever, weasel words, the POV is very biased, and just sub-par writing. I am personally for removing the section if there are no improvements made on it. What does everyone else think? W7jkt ( talk) 16:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I've been working on this for a bit, and I've added quite a few citations. As I am a Mormon, most of my additions have been to the LDS section, simply because that is what I know. What I would like to see is an entire article refimprove for every section so that every paragraph has at least one reference. I can't do this by myself, but the thought that came to mind was that everyone who has any kind of knowledge or experience in the various sections to find references for the claims in that section. This would do wonders for this article in making it more inline with WP policies. It is just unacceptable for an article such as this to have so few citations. I will continue to do my best, but again, the other sections are not in my particular scope of knowledge. Regards, W7jkt ( talk) 13:58, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a picture of John Calvin in this article with the caption "John Calvin started the Protestant Reformation in 1536 AD". That is not true. The Protestant Reformation was started by Martin Luther in 1517. Someone should change the caption to make it accurate. 198.174.0.30 ( talk) 01:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)Jessica
Or just take out the photo.... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Billybobby87 (
talk •
contribs) 21:07, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
There are whole sections that are opinion based with no evidence of reality. No references, nothing affirming what is written. This article needs a lot of stuff taken out of it. Wikipedia states "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." Lots of this is not and should be removed. -- Billybobby87 ( talk) 21:16, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. It needs additional citations for verification. Tagged since February 2011. Its factual accuracy is disputed. Tagged since March 2010. It may contain original research. Tagged since March 2010. Its neutrality is disputed. Tagged since December 2007.
-- Billybobby87 ( talk) 21:19, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
There are two paragraphs of material recently added to the Jehovah's Witness section that I dispute. They are these:
The first paragraph appears to give specific quotes, but omits the source of these quotes. The source should be available since it was quoted from, and should be referenced here both to show that the quotes aren't fabricated, and to allow the reader to further research this area.
The second paragraph appears to be POV speculation, or possibly personal research. Who asserts that "counterfeit Christians crept into the fold,", or that "Christians had as many annual festivals as the pagans themselves?" Is there any quantitative evidence at all for the latter claim? Did the pagans have even half as many fasting days as the Christians did to go with their festivals? By contrast, many of John Chrysostom's sermons in the latter part of the fourth century decried excessive secular celebrations, theater, and other carrying on, to such an extent that he was exiled by the Emperor for criticizing the royal court. He also happened to be an outspoken proponent of the Trinity and opponent of Arianism.
Without some substantiation or revision, both paragraphs stand a good chance being deleted. But I thought it most polite to bring up the subject here first. Wesley 03:02, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I agree. The sources should be given. They are from a dialogue entitled Octavius by Minucius Felix as found in Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA; 1956, edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. IV, Ch. XII.
"Counterfeit Christians crept into the fold" is a sentence used in discussing the beliefs of Jehovahs' Witnesses. They believe that the congregation can be likened to a fold. (John 10:16) They also believe that this is a historical fact. It is up to other people to dispute it, and to do it elsewhere, in a place discussing their personal beliefs contra Jehovah's Witnesses. True, even Jehovah's Witnesses agree that this apostasy did not happen all at once and that through history, people have held to ideas and interpretations close or sometimes very close to their beliefs while still holding on to some beliefs denounced by the Witnesses.
--Porthos 20:59, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"and take up his cross, and follow Me." - What it means here to suffer in the similar way as Jesus did. Few words before it reads "let him deny himself" which should mean a dedication like Christ did to do the work of his father (John 6:38). In the next line Jesus said "and take up his cross" where he didn't say "take up MY cross", it means the individuals suffering for the work Christ has entrusted on each on of us (Mark 13:10-13). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.92.129.46 ( talk) 15:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Boy I'm not even going to touch this page.
Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god . . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.
Constantine worshipped all the gods especially Apollo the god of the sun. He held the title Pontifex Maximus which was the title of the high priest of paganism.Then we have the following in the first Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine:
"On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost." (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time [A.D. 321].) Source: Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3 (5th ed.; New York: Scribner, 1902), p. 380, note 1.
"Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the Sabbatical observance of that day is known to have been ordained, is the edict of Constantine, 321 A.D."--"Chamber's Encyclopedia," article, "Sabbath."
Here is the first Sunday Law in history, a legal enactment by Constantine 1 (reigned 306-331): "On the Venerable Day of the Sun ["venerabili die Solis"--the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost--Given the 7th day of March, [A.D. 321], Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time."--The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus," lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff "History of the Christian Church," Vol. 3, p. 380.
"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261. "Constantine's decree marked the beginning of a long, though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest."-- Vincent J. Kelly, "Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations," 1943, p. 29.
Transition from Pagan to Christian [p. 122] This legislation by Constantine probably bore no relation to Christianity; it appears, on the contrary, that the emperor, in his capacity of Pontifex Maximus, was only adding the day of the Sun, the worship of which was then firmly [p. 123] established in the Roman Empire, to the other ferial days of the sacred calendar… [p. 270] What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labour on Sunday. Source: Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 122, 123, 270. Copyright 1916 by The Macmillan Company, New York. Yes, the title Pontifex Maximus is pagan, derived from the Sun worshipping Roman Empire, and the source of the papal title of Pontiff.
Pagan Festivals and Church Policy The Church made a sacred day of Sunday … largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance. Source: Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 145. Copyright 1928 by G. p. Putnam’s Sons, New York. Simbagraphix ( talk) 08:16, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Hey, so it's been several years since the "Theological Dangers" section was first tagged as lacking in neutrality and it is still headed by a disputed neutrality banner. The section remains highly POV and unencyclopedic. It is also almost completely unsourced. Unless someone objects in the coming week or so, I'll go ahead and delete the "Theological Dangers" section. I'm giving it a week because I'm reluctant to delete content without discussion. Tigercompanion25 ( talk) 22:42, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
A number of recent edits have resulted in mass deletions of the text at the bottom of the page. These typically leave a fragment in mid-sentence, which makes me doubt it's intentional vandalism. Perhaps it is time to spin off the ending of the page, the Roman Catholic / Orthodox material, to a page of its own? Smerdis of Tlön 16:23, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
There has been a series of edits here and here that added certain content concerning Catholic beliefs and liturgy. There are two problems with these edits: first, they are not citing reliable sources, but rather websites which promote certain views; and second, they are undue weight, making it appear that Protestants in general view Catholics as idol-worshipers etc. In an edit yesterday, I left two of the dodgy refs (and even expanded them from bare urls), on the basis that they were harmless enough on their own, but peppering them throughout the section and the lead, as well as deleting my note that Mary is not worshiped in the Catholic Church, is unacceptable. Scolaire ( talk) 12:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
"Great Apostasy" is a Mormon buzzword and missionary talking point, as the original version of the article makes fairly obvious [3]. As such, the title is probably not NPOV. The current version may or may not have been made more neutral by accreting other minority viewpoints...but it may also be a kind of synthesis of various Restorationist theologies that developed independently of each other. Geogene ( talk) 18:39, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
How would you establish a date for the Great Apostasy? Can you name the year or the decade that the last clergyman died, or any other specific event? Even if it was a gradual process, there should be some event or narrow time frame you can point to and say, because of historical evidence that such and such was said, or such and such was done, the Great Apostasy was definitely complete by this time. This is the case for the other items on the chart. Wesley 17:05 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
-- 207.242.93.10 00:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)::
Mkmcconn stated: "It is part of Mormon propaganda that Protestants have a doctrine of a "great apostasy"."
Rmhermen asked "Which denominations use this actual term?[:the Great Apostasy]"
Wesley said and asked: "The continuity in [the] teaching and liturgy [of the popes and patriarchs] is also historically demonstrable through examination of representative writings, and seeing which books and letters were being circulated in different areas. How does Mormonism interpret such historical evidence?"
To answer your question, one place that Ignatius speaks of the roles of bishops, presbyters (priests) and deacons is in his Epistle to the Ephesians, particularly chapters IV, V, VI, and XX. You also see many references to the Eucharist there. It's at the same site at http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-16.htm#P1093_206499. This is one of the letters Ignatius wrote after his arrest, while being transported to Rome to be executed. In chapter XI, he also mentions that the Christians in Ephesus "have always been of the same mind with the apostles through the power of Jesus Christ." Note that although he mentions the apostles in this letter, it is the bishops, presbyters and deacons to whom he asks them to be subject. To find more references, you may need to open each epistle and use your browser's "find" command to find occurrences of "bishop" on that page; at least that's what seems to work best for me on that site. Happy reading! Wesley 22:04 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I want to come back to the issue of what the Mormon view of historical evidence is in regard to the continuation of the early Christian church. While there may be some Mormon scholars out there who have touched on various historical records around and continuing shortly after the time of the Bible, there is no official LDS church comments on these records...or rather, there is not a line by line commentary...at most maybe just a few comments about the records in general. But under the view of confirmation holism in the philosophy of science, this gap presents no problem. Presuming the validity of confirmation holism, there would be little problem of reconciling the historical evidence to fit Mormonism should intelligent Mormons put their minds to it. What theories they would develop around each record, I cannot say, but under the view on confirmatin holism, it should be possible. B 23:20 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'm reminded of a conversation Gregory of Nyssa reports having in a dream with his then departed older sister Macrina. In the dialogue, Gregory questions the resurrection of the dead and raises a number of practical objections to it, such as whether old men will be resurrected in their old decrepit bodies, and infants in their infant bodies, and many similar problems. In response, Macrina smiled gently and said it was like listening to a group of men who had heard of sunshine but never seen it, sit around arguing about what sunshine was like, speculating and debating throughout the night. When dawn came and they saw the sun shine forth, they together said "Oh! Of course!"
More to the point of this article, perhaps it would suffice to say that the historical record now available to us fails to support the sort of apostasy the LDS church assumes, but the LDS and its members believe in the Great Apostasy because they believe what Joseph Smith Jr. reports concerning the various visions and revelations he received? Wesley 04:06, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I've offered some responses to Protestant claims under the Catholic/Orthodox heading at the end, but I fear I may be too argumentative/POV, and the format that's evolving may not be the best. I simply felt that some of the "Claims" subheadings earlier deserved some sort of response; it could probably be better done though. Suggestions for improvement are more than welcome. Thanks. Wesley 05:13, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Randy and Wesley (and whoever), would you give some suggestions for better headings than "claim:..."? They strike me as un-encyclopedically worded, long and awkward (although I wrote them). Mkmcconn 06:55, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I have come across few Wikipedia articles that are as shameless as this one. POV abounds, assertions about God are accepted as proven facts, and apologism without citation is indeed the backbone of the article.
Attempting rework to remove some of the most blatant and obvious POV.
Sukiari ( talk) 02:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted to say I thought the article as it is now provides a very good, unbiased view of both main sides (in modern days, mainly more fundamentalist Protestants with one extreme of belief in support of the Great Apostasy and the other side mainly being the Catholic Church and it's self-defense) as well as moderates (mostly evangelical Protestants who believe the Catholic Chruch is still legitmate but question infalibility and believe it has on certain issues fallen into error). Each section simply explained each main side and its main points, without any bias or sense that one side is more right than the other. [And, for clarification, by bias I mean outside bias. For example, if the Catholic Church is asked its position on this subject, its answer will have a Catholic bias, but it is supposed to, because it is their point of view. The important thing is that the written explination for any denomination's side has no influence from another side.] I was expecting to find some overall bias, having just read many articles about Christianity in general, in which would be edited by Catholics and have a Catholic slant to the whole article and then edited by Protestants and have a Protestant slant, etc. But this article has no overall slant; I only wish other articles involving Christian theology were like this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.61.100.127 ( talk • contribs) .
I suggest that the Catholic understanding of the Church's final trial as outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC, 675) [1] be added to the Catholic section of this article. Essentially, the Roman Catholic Church believes that there will be a final trial preceding Christ's second coming that will offer humanity peace in exchange for apostasy from the truth. This would represent a Catholic understanding of the Great Apostasy. -- Dreas 18:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I rank myself as a casual reader of this article. Jehovah's Witnesses has been my family's religion since the Bible Student days of Charles Taze Russell. When I was a college student, I avoided writing papers concerning strong Witness beliefs. My views of the Witnesses prevented me from neutral academic work. This article is not neutral in tone. Some detachment from the topic might be an improvement. Were this not wikipedia, I would never pay for the content. Sitting in my home or walking down the block, I could receive the same biased info for free. 75Janice ( talk) 23:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)75Janice 75Janice ( talk) 23:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
This article is virtually unreadable, and full of unsourced information from multiple biased POVs. It seems like this was pretty much abandoned due to the impossibility of regulating it. This needs to have the "reset" button hit, and be locked down from casual editing. Unless an individual has a background in religious history, such as a degree in a history field they should not be editing it based on stuff they found on the internet and heard in church.
Just seems like the vast majority of editing has been done by people with a stake in the argument. Cabazap ( talk) 03:56, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I have been reviewing the "The dangers of theology" for a bit and I am of the opinion that this section needs either a seriously extensive rewrite, or it needs to be removed. There are some very interesting claims with no citations whatsoever, weasel words, the POV is very biased, and just sub-par writing. I am personally for removing the section if there are no improvements made on it. What does everyone else think? W7jkt ( talk) 16:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I've been working on this for a bit, and I've added quite a few citations. As I am a Mormon, most of my additions have been to the LDS section, simply because that is what I know. What I would like to see is an entire article refimprove for every section so that every paragraph has at least one reference. I can't do this by myself, but the thought that came to mind was that everyone who has any kind of knowledge or experience in the various sections to find references for the claims in that section. This would do wonders for this article in making it more inline with WP policies. It is just unacceptable for an article such as this to have so few citations. I will continue to do my best, but again, the other sections are not in my particular scope of knowledge. Regards, W7jkt ( talk) 13:58, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a picture of John Calvin in this article with the caption "John Calvin started the Protestant Reformation in 1536 AD". That is not true. The Protestant Reformation was started by Martin Luther in 1517. Someone should change the caption to make it accurate. 198.174.0.30 ( talk) 01:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)Jessica
Or just take out the photo.... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Billybobby87 (
talk •
contribs) 21:07, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
There are whole sections that are opinion based with no evidence of reality. No references, nothing affirming what is written. This article needs a lot of stuff taken out of it. Wikipedia states "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." Lots of this is not and should be removed. -- Billybobby87 ( talk) 21:16, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. It needs additional citations for verification. Tagged since February 2011. Its factual accuracy is disputed. Tagged since March 2010. It may contain original research. Tagged since March 2010. Its neutrality is disputed. Tagged since December 2007.
-- Billybobby87 ( talk) 21:19, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
There are two paragraphs of material recently added to the Jehovah's Witness section that I dispute. They are these:
The first paragraph appears to give specific quotes, but omits the source of these quotes. The source should be available since it was quoted from, and should be referenced here both to show that the quotes aren't fabricated, and to allow the reader to further research this area.
The second paragraph appears to be POV speculation, or possibly personal research. Who asserts that "counterfeit Christians crept into the fold,", or that "Christians had as many annual festivals as the pagans themselves?" Is there any quantitative evidence at all for the latter claim? Did the pagans have even half as many fasting days as the Christians did to go with their festivals? By contrast, many of John Chrysostom's sermons in the latter part of the fourth century decried excessive secular celebrations, theater, and other carrying on, to such an extent that he was exiled by the Emperor for criticizing the royal court. He also happened to be an outspoken proponent of the Trinity and opponent of Arianism.
Without some substantiation or revision, both paragraphs stand a good chance being deleted. But I thought it most polite to bring up the subject here first. Wesley 03:02, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I agree. The sources should be given. They are from a dialogue entitled Octavius by Minucius Felix as found in Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA; 1956, edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. IV, Ch. XII.
"Counterfeit Christians crept into the fold" is a sentence used in discussing the beliefs of Jehovahs' Witnesses. They believe that the congregation can be likened to a fold. (John 10:16) They also believe that this is a historical fact. It is up to other people to dispute it, and to do it elsewhere, in a place discussing their personal beliefs contra Jehovah's Witnesses. True, even Jehovah's Witnesses agree that this apostasy did not happen all at once and that through history, people have held to ideas and interpretations close or sometimes very close to their beliefs while still holding on to some beliefs denounced by the Witnesses.
--Porthos 20:59, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"and take up his cross, and follow Me." - What it means here to suffer in the similar way as Jesus did. Few words before it reads "let him deny himself" which should mean a dedication like Christ did to do the work of his father (John 6:38). In the next line Jesus said "and take up his cross" where he didn't say "take up MY cross", it means the individuals suffering for the work Christ has entrusted on each on of us (Mark 13:10-13). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.92.129.46 ( talk) 15:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Boy I'm not even going to touch this page.
Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god . . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.
Constantine worshipped all the gods especially Apollo the god of the sun. He held the title Pontifex Maximus which was the title of the high priest of paganism.Then we have the following in the first Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine:
"On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost." (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time [A.D. 321].) Source: Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3 (5th ed.; New York: Scribner, 1902), p. 380, note 1.
"Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the Sabbatical observance of that day is known to have been ordained, is the edict of Constantine, 321 A.D."--"Chamber's Encyclopedia," article, "Sabbath."
Here is the first Sunday Law in history, a legal enactment by Constantine 1 (reigned 306-331): "On the Venerable Day of the Sun ["venerabili die Solis"--the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost--Given the 7th day of March, [A.D. 321], Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time."--The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus," lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff "History of the Christian Church," Vol. 3, p. 380.
"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261. "Constantine's decree marked the beginning of a long, though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest."-- Vincent J. Kelly, "Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations," 1943, p. 29.
Transition from Pagan to Christian [p. 122] This legislation by Constantine probably bore no relation to Christianity; it appears, on the contrary, that the emperor, in his capacity of Pontifex Maximus, was only adding the day of the Sun, the worship of which was then firmly [p. 123] established in the Roman Empire, to the other ferial days of the sacred calendar… [p. 270] What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labour on Sunday. Source: Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 122, 123, 270. Copyright 1916 by The Macmillan Company, New York. Yes, the title Pontifex Maximus is pagan, derived from the Sun worshipping Roman Empire, and the source of the papal title of Pontiff.
Pagan Festivals and Church Policy The Church made a sacred day of Sunday … largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance. Source: Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 145. Copyright 1928 by G. p. Putnam’s Sons, New York. Simbagraphix ( talk) 08:16, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Hey, so it's been several years since the "Theological Dangers" section was first tagged as lacking in neutrality and it is still headed by a disputed neutrality banner. The section remains highly POV and unencyclopedic. It is also almost completely unsourced. Unless someone objects in the coming week or so, I'll go ahead and delete the "Theological Dangers" section. I'm giving it a week because I'm reluctant to delete content without discussion. Tigercompanion25 ( talk) 22:42, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
A number of recent edits have resulted in mass deletions of the text at the bottom of the page. These typically leave a fragment in mid-sentence, which makes me doubt it's intentional vandalism. Perhaps it is time to spin off the ending of the page, the Roman Catholic / Orthodox material, to a page of its own? Smerdis of Tlön 16:23, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
There has been a series of edits here and here that added certain content concerning Catholic beliefs and liturgy. There are two problems with these edits: first, they are not citing reliable sources, but rather websites which promote certain views; and second, they are undue weight, making it appear that Protestants in general view Catholics as idol-worshipers etc. In an edit yesterday, I left two of the dodgy refs (and even expanded them from bare urls), on the basis that they were harmless enough on their own, but peppering them throughout the section and the lead, as well as deleting my note that Mary is not worshiped in the Catholic Church, is unacceptable. Scolaire ( talk) 12:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
"Great Apostasy" is a Mormon buzzword and missionary talking point, as the original version of the article makes fairly obvious [3]. As such, the title is probably not NPOV. The current version may or may not have been made more neutral by accreting other minority viewpoints...but it may also be a kind of synthesis of various Restorationist theologies that developed independently of each other. Geogene ( talk) 18:39, 4 September 2017 (UTC)