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This started as a strong LDS POV advocacy; I think I may have just "balanced" it by adding a strong dose of my own POV towards the end. Help, corrections or additions are sought and welcomed; I'll try think of ways to balance it further as well. Thanks. Wesley
JW's also believe in the Great Apostacy, but have a slightly different take on it (since they don't see the Mormon priesthood as valid). The article was so strongly based on the LDS point of view, I was relucant to leap in and NPOV it; it looked like a lot of work. -- Clutch 18:54 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)
I've added a short introductory paragraph. There are probably more commonalities; I just didn't want to dig into the long LDS paragraph. Feel free to expand, reorganize, add the JW take, etc. This is still a work in progress. Wesley
Why was "Christian tradition" changed to "mainstream Christianity"? Just wondering... Wesley
I'm not sure which post you're referring to on Talk:Christianity; must have been under a different username. I can see that an unqualified reference to "tradition" may be controversial, but history... if the LDS believes they're in line with the early church up until the 3rd or 4th century, and the ancient Americans up until around 600AD, then by their own account they are not part of history between 600AD and sometime in the 1800s when Joseph Smith came to prominence. The religion generally referred to as "Christianity" does have a history that includes that time frame. Wesley 16:52 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)
The text of the article had a query asking for a Reformation perspective from the Lutherans and Calvinists. I have done my best to supply it. It may well have POV problems; please bear in mind that I have not been one quarter as vehement as folks were back then. --- User:Ihcoyc
I strongly object to the deletion of the following text:
A prominent theme of most of Ignatius' writings is that every Christian should obey his bishop; it's what he is most know for. I'll look up a couple of more precise references this weekend. The church's emphasis on order can also be seen in the New Testament in the apostles' appointing seven deacons to oversee the food distribution in the book of Acts; and in many of Paul's epistles, particularly the pastoral epistles directed to Timothy and Titus. They clearly had bishops/overseers, elders/presbyters, and deacons from almost the very beginning. What evidence does Ellul offer of the early Church's anarchy?
Some early saints who were also soldiers, with links, include: the Holy Martyr Hermas ( http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/may/may-31.html); The Holy Martyr Hieron and the 33 Martyrs of Melitene ( http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/november/nov-07.html); Saint Mauricios, a military commander of Syrian Apameia, suffered in the year 305 under the emperor Maximian Galerius (305-311) together with his son Photinos and 70 soldiers under his command ( http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/february/feb-22.html). These saints suffered because they were Christians, or because they would not sacrifice to the pagan gods when ordered to do so, but did not voluntarily cease their military service because they were Christians. All of them predate Ellul's "dramatic shift". What evidence does Ellul give that the earlier church was decidedly anti-military? Wesley 17:36 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)
Ignatius recommended listening to ones bishop only in spiritual things. Even in anarchy, groups have leaders. The early church was definately anti-statist and didn't allow military service. Therefore Jacques Ellul was perfectly correct in stating what he did. He wrote a whole book on the anarchistic tendencies of early Christianity, which is well researched. He even quoted Ignatius. Check it out from your local library Anarchy and Christianity by Jacques Ellul. I can see why that would be an uncomfortable revelation for people who view the church as the hand-maiden of the state.
As for the military Christians, they became Christians while in the military, and didn't have the option of just dropping out. They were in it for their 20 year spell. Even today, desertion is punishable by death. It was worse back then. And when time came that they had to violate their Christian consciences by killing someone, they refused. That is why they were martyred in the first place, and why they were recorded. Ellul discusses this in detail.
-- Clutch 00:12 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)
I have a couple issues regarding the Latter-Day Saints section as it stands right now, particularly with the way it presents history. I don't mind the article presenting the LDS view when it's labeled as such, but right now it seems to take for granted a number of events as facts that, well, differ from how I and I think a number of others see that period of history. First, those who argued in favor of the doctrine of the Trinity believed that they were defending and existing doctrine, and that Arius' doctrine was the new innovation that should be rejected. Thus, to say that the First Ecumenical Council adopted the doctrine is to present the Arian position as historically factual; that's how I read the article at present. Second, regarding the persecutions, it seems clear from most of the accounts of martyrdoms that the Roman authorities didn't care much about Christian theology so long as they would still offer sacrifices to the Roman gods. They made no attempt to get Christians to compromise, other than to persuade them to offer these sacrifices, or at least that's how the martyrologies that I've read seem to present it. When the Romans wanted to flush all the Christians out of a city, they would just require everyone in town to register and offer sacrifices at a specific time, so they could more easily identify the Christians and arrest or kill them.
I see that the same concern regarding how the Trinity and the First Council of Nicaea is discussed also applies to the Adventist section. I'm uncertain of exactly how the article should be changed to reflect the two rather different views of what happened. Any suggestions? Wesley 21:35 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)
Which denominations use this actual term? Or are we just coining a term to cover a range of interpretations? - which we should not do. My concern is raised because this page is being used as justification on the Christianity article but nowhere off Wikipedia can I find anyone using this definition. Rmhermen 14:58 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some comments below were moved here from Talk:Christianity
I'll try to avoid bringing up the logic problems raised by claiming the church was already apostate in the first century... Wesley 20:23 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think this article (particularly the sub-heading "Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy") has an evident bias.
1. Statements such as "Protestants often assume that practices that seem especially strange to them... must have been introduced after the time of Constantine. Documents from the pre-Constantine church often show otherwise." offer only a caricature of the wide spectrum of Protestant belief without documentation and then follow it by the refutation of a straw man. [In fact, many (if not most protestants) don't disparage but rather encourage fasting or holidays, particularly if they remain adiaphorous rather than compulsory. Their justification for the view is based on St. Paul's rejecting false teachers who insist on keeping days to earn God's favor (as in his epistle to the Galatians) but accepting Christians who keep days "holy unto the Lord" (as in his epistle to the Romans). The same things can be said of ascetic practices (fasting, celibacy, etc.): the Bible affirms one form as good and another as evil. Thus, this article is at least overly general because it condenses all forms of fasting (for instance) into the word "fasting" and then asserts Protestants general rejection of fasting as "strange." Compare John Piper's recent books on fasting and sacrificial living (or what we might call "semi-ascetic" living, since it's not quite monkish) for a Protestant's take.]
2. Elsewhere in the article, the Protestants' efforts at missions are said to be waged "largely without the benefit of two millennia of experience that the historic Christian faith has to offer." This article notes elsewhere that the Protestants consider *themselves* to be the "historic Christian faith," and it also mentions that some Protestants, particularly the Lutherans and Calvinists, uphold the saints of the past -- including the Church Fathers -- as righteous but flawed men. The Protestants attempt to imitate them insofar as they imitate Christ, and they weigh the church triumphant's teachings against their own understanding Bible before accepting the teachings. Thus, they would not consider themselves as neglecting the "historic Christian faith," and the judgment against them is unwarranted and biased.
3. "In response to the claim that the church's response to one heresy led to an overcorrection in the opposite direction, **it can only be admitted that this is always a real danger.**" This statement (among others) seems clearly to be written by a Roman Catholic or Orthodox apologist rather than a "neutral observer." The paragraph beginning with "Compounding this risk of overcorrection..." is likewise a defense of Catholicism/Orthodoxy and an attack on Protestantism that is not relevant to the article at hand, at least in the way it is presented here.
4. "Restricting worship to a mental exercise removes the ‘strength’ element of loving God...." As it is written, this paragraph is clearly a defense of Catholicism/Orthodoxy and an implicit attack on Protestantism, who are again caricatured. Many protestants, especially the Lutheran and Calvinists, also believe that creation is good but deny that "[t]he epitome of the action occurs in the Eucharistic sacrifice." This article is not an objective account of the matter.
5. My suggestion is that the text under sub-heading "Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy" should either be removed or re-written in a more neutral point of view. Flex 17:03, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
P.S. It's generally considered polite to sign your talk page posts, using 4 tildes, like this ~~~~
As I think I was probably the initial author of the "Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy" section, let me share some of its history. (For the record, I'm an Orthodox Christian, a convert from Protestantism.) This article began by explaining the Mormon idea of the Great Apostasy, how all of Christendom fell away from the original teachings of Jesus Christ, and remained in this state until Joseph Smith, Jr. brought the revelation he received from his visions and so forth and founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think I added a brief "rebuttal" section at that time. Later, others added reasons why the Protestants thought that the Catholics had fallen away from Christ's teachings, generally the well-known justifications for the Protestant Reformation. Many (but not all) of these critiques wind up being applied to the Orthodox as well. So, I tried to extend the "rebuttal" section to answer those claims, generally trying to match the structure of the section to the broad outline of the rest of the article as it existed at the time. It seemed better to put these answers in their own section, so that their POV could be identified, rather than intermix them in the rest of the article.
The very premise of this article is POV to begin with; it was initially proffering a Mormon POV, and was later extended to encompass the broader Protestant POV. It seems to me the only thing that salvages it is having some sort of "rebuttal" section, weak though it may be. There are probably better ways to say it, but there needs to be some explanation of why the Orthodox (and Catholics) think there has never been a "Great Apostasy" as described in the bulk of this article. I may try to answer your specific objections another time, but wanted to make sure you were aware of some background first. Wesley 21:16, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've read through the article for the first time in many months; with that in mind let me try to address the numbered objections. 1. Granted, the Catholic/Orthodox section presents a very broad view of Protestantism that may seem like a caricature, especially if you're particularly familiary with one slice of Protestantism. That's impossible to avoid in anything approaching this amount of space, considering there are over 30,000 denominations. Would the section really be improved by, perhaps, separately addressing the various groups of Protestants that are mentioned earlier in the article, i.e. the Mormons, Anabaptists, Anglicans, etc.? I did try to revise what it says about the general Protestant attitude towards fasting however; I hope you find that a small improvement.
2. The Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura leaves them effectively without the help of the Church Fathers. They may read the Church Fathers, but they reserve the right to reject the view of any one of them or all of them if it disagrees with their personal interpretation of the scripture. Not all Protestants take sola scriptura quite to this extreme, but your description certainly appears to. The Pope himself reads the Church Fathers as well, but reserves final judgment to himself; each Protestant does the same, or else ignores the Fathers entirely since only the Bible is needed.
3. Certainly it's a defense; much of the material elsewhere in this same article is an attack. Any specific suggestions on how to improve the presentation?
4. Again, sure it lumps all Protestants together when in fact they're a very diverse bunch. Would it improve things to address different groupings separately?
I'd like the section to stay; I don't necessarily think it needs to grow to be half the size of the entire article. I'm not sure how to address your concerns without doing that, though I'm open to suggestions. Wesley 04:51, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
I've changed the order of discussion here. It seems to me that it makes more sense to discuss this in a historical framework, and thus to start out with the original reformation churches (Lutheran and Calvinist, Anabaptist, Anglican), and then go on to discuss the modern churches (Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS). Lutheran and Calvinist should come first, as this was the first theory of great apostasy, and the one which we discuss in greatest length. It should certainly come before the discussion of the Anglicans, since the latter presumes that one is already familiar with Lutheran and Calvinist ideas of the Great Apostasy. I've no opinion on whether Anabaptists or Anglicans should come first (although Anabaptists were chronologically first, so I left them in front), and no real sense of what a good order for the later churches would be. I think it's fine to keep the Catholic and Orthodox discussions last, since they do not believe in a great apostasy, so the discussion there is of a different kind from the discussions of the churches that do or did believe in a great apostasy. john k 16:18, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I felt it was necessary to expound on the reasons why I edited. The original reads as:
They don't "affirm" anything, because they legitimately cannot. However, they can "claim" "their ecclesiastical structure... liturgical..." was similar to that of the first congregation. Just reading that first sentence over and over again further drives my belief that the entire paragraph needs to be re-written or deleted entirely as it's hopelessly innacurate and misleading.
Not even close. The apostles practiced communion annually (on Nisan 14), not weekly (and not on the 3rd sunday of the month in the case of Easter). They didn't know what "Stations of the Cross" were. They didn't take the communion with a mandatory right over left hand. They didn't make the sign of a cross on their chests before sitting in a pew. They can "claim", they cannot "affirm."
That's entirely untrue as an "affirmation". As a "claim", it is false. A bit of history: Constantine defeated Maxentius in 312 at Milvian Bridge where he allegedly saw the "In hoc signo vinces", as a result he deliberately allied himself with Christianity (though he still worshipped the Roman sun god). In 313 he declared tolerance of all religions (around the same time Eusebius became the Bishop of Caesarea Palaestina). In 325 Constantine called the first Ecumenical Council with the PRIMARY INTENTION OF ESTABLISHING AN ORTHODOX Christian faith. And yes, the changes were quite "radical." For the first time ever, the various doctrines and creeds that were invented, or established as orthodox, were now not only Orthodox, but the church had a new aura of authority due in very large part to Constantine and the highly influential Eusebius. Congregations that differed in beliefs were no longer passively disregarded, or written against by the various Ante-Nicene "Fathers" (Arians/Gnostics), they were no longer even considered to be Christian. This new "Orthodoxy" along with Constantines encouragement of Christian political and military involvement was radically new to Christianity and was A COMPLETE REVERSAL of former Christian life, liturgical practice, and doctrinal beliefs.
I changed "Many elements" to just: "Elements...". The only element that I can think of that has been consistent pre/post Nicea is the use of the bible, but doctinally and liturgically they're near polar opposites. It's true you'll find information on general Christian lifestyle and teachings in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers but to infer that those teachings and lifestyles corrospond to those of "Orthodoxy" is 100% dishonest, ignorant, fiction.
The above list is just differences in lifestyle with the notable exception of the point regarding the Trinity doctrine. Doctrine as a whole was developed post Jesus so to what degree they believed something, and why, is really beyond what I'm going after, I just cited the Trinity as the embodiment of doctrinal change on the whole from pre to post Nicea. No honest historian would try to argue against the fact that Constantine with Eusebius' influence, turned the Christian world up-side-down. Duffer 01:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article is getting sidetracked by a lot of denominational apologetics. In the first place, the whole section on Catholicism and Orthodoxy seems to be there not so much to explain the views of Catholics and Orthodox as to advocate their views. This should be avoided. On the other hand, Duffer's comments suggest apologetics in the opposite direction - an attempt to prove that there was a great apostasy. To be fair, Duffer's actual edits have not been terribly POV. But it seems to me that we might perhaps do more to explain what about the traditions of the early church fathers Catholics and Orthodox point to, and what their various opponents point to. It is rather clear - to me, at least, as an agnostic Jew - that no single denomination can claim a monopoly on the inheritance of the early church, and we ought probably to make this clear. john k 01:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would add that Duffer seems to be imputing much more radical changes to the Council of Nicea than I have ever read about. Indeed, Christianity changed a great deal between the time of the first apostles and the era of the Reformation (and Catholicism and Orthodoxy have both changed a great deal since then, as well). But Duffer's claims here seem to suggest that all (or most, at least) of those changes were a result of Nicea, which I have never heard anywhere. Certainly, the rosary (which came into being in its final form in the 13th century and is not, so far as I am aware, used by the Orthodox) cannot be blamed on the Council of Nicea. Nor can the cult of the Virgin Mary. Or the supremacy of the Pope. Or the idea of "orthodoxy" or the fact that the modern Catholic church (and mainline protestants, and so forth) are reluctant to excommunicate people. Or much else. The fact that the Catholic Church in 2005 is very different from the Christianity of the early church fathers is not terribly surprising. But claiming that this has to do in some way with the Council of Nicea, particularly, seems dubious. And claiming that any other Christian group has any better claim to the mantle is even more so. john k 01:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The overview has some significant problems. For one it seems to think that all churches desire to return to the state of the 1st Century church (not necessarily the case). Also it assumes that all church splits were as a result of a perceived 'straying' of whatever-church-it-split-from from the early church teachings. Not necessarily the case. Some churches split because of practice, not theology - i.e. the church was viewed as corrupt in practice, not necessarily deficient in theology. Anglicanism made relatively few changes in theology in its split from Catholicism; Methodism was formed from Anglicanism simply because it would not permit the Wesleys the freedom to do what they thought right. The Salvation Army was formed for similar reasons. I'm sure there are others. DJ Clayworth 16:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the statement that 'The concept of a great apostacy is essential to the formation of a new denomination'. Simply not the case. Many denominations are formed without any concept of a Great Apostacy. I've mentioned Methodism and the Salvation Army above. I can come up with plenty of others. DJ Clayworth 16:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Somehow there also seems to be a huge section discussing Anglicanism, despite the fact that Anglicans pretty much reject the idea of a Great Apostacy. Shouldn't this be mentioned? DJ Clayworth 16:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Any particular reason we don't mention that Gnostic Christians expressed similar views about the developing Church at the time? We could take a few sentences to describe the main similarities and differences between the Gnostic view and this claim about a Great Apostasy. Dan 05:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Much of this article, particularly the second half, is written from a highly sympathetic, and nearly first person, point of view. I ask for objectivity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.22.22.101 ( talk) 20:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
I would go beyond limiting that to the second half or "Reformed Viewpoint" - the whole article is a mess, nicely dividing it into 'viewpoints' has allowed for it to become a religious thought board, drawn on denominational lines, and the article has no overall coherent narrative. I think much of the article should be deleted altogether. Further editors need to consider what Wikipedia is not. Brando130 16:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
This section claims "To oversimplify greatly" - it does more then that. It confuses history, fictionalizes the present, and is just wrong. Starting with the second paragraph there is almost nothing that can be salvaged. I already had cut some nonsense from the section on the second paragraph when I realized the whole thing needed to go:
The reception of the Reformation views of a general falling away from the Christian faith, by the Church of England and other churches of the Anglican and Episcopalian denomination is a historically complex subject. As a state church, the Church of England attempted to unite all the people of England in a single church. However, the English disagreed amongst themselves about the retention of various ceremonies of Roman Catholicism, and about Arminian versus Calvinist theologies.
Political issues shaped English attitudes towards Roman Catholicism. Due to Papal attacks on the legitimacy of the English monarchy, expressed via the Spanish Armada and the " Marian Persecutions " under Mary I of England, many Britons were disposed to see Roman Catholicism as a hostile authoritarian force. The Stuart monarchs, however, wished to cement political alliances--often via marriage--with Continental powers, including Roman Catholic monarchs.
To oversimplify greatly, there arose a " high church" party within the Church of England and a " low church" party allied with Puritanism. The high church party had Anglo-Catholic and Arminian tendencies, and wished to continue at least some of the pageantry of Roman Catholic ritual. The low church party was Calvinist and wished to move the Church of England in the direction of the Reformed churches. The low church party, sometimes called the Evangelical wing, was much more open to the vehement language of the Continental reformers about the Great Apostasy than was the more liturgical, high church party. Officially, churches of the Anglican persuasion teach that Rome has fallen into error. The Thirty-Nine Articles provide that:
- 19. Of the Church
- . . .
- As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred; so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.
- 21. Of the Authority of General Councils
- General Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of Princes. And when they be gathered together, (forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God,) they may err, and sometimes have erred, even in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture.
- (Article 21 was abrogated in 1801 by the Episcopal Church in the USA because of its reference to "Princes".)
- 22. Of Purgatory
- The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.
The Anglican churches therefore officially teach that the Roman Catholic Church has on certain issues fallen into error and incorporated some wrong teaching and practices into its worship. The stress any given Anglican will put on these teachings will depend on where that person fits into the continuum of Anglo-Catholicism versus Anglo-Protestantism. Modern efforts of reconciliation have gone a long way toward reversal of former hostilities between Anglican churches, and the Catholic and Orthodox communions.
To jump from "error" to "apostasy" is HUGE. Anglo-Proestantism - that is WP:NEO. I have never heard that expression in either historical or theological contexts. I am working on the Thirty-Nine Articles right now and I know that NO version of the Articles uses the phrase "Great Apostasy" in them. They merit no mention here. I will try to get somebody over here to add something from the Anglican perspective. The whole passage reads like WP:OR. -- SECisek 05:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
"Reponses of Roman Catholocism and Orthodox Christianity" might be more suitable. Also, does anyone have any thughts as to why the "traditionalist" view is under this heading? LCP 22:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The article says:
The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches had developed from early on the idea of infallibility of the Church — that the Church may speak entirely without error in particular councils or edicts
It is true that for long the Catholic and Orthodox Churches speak about infallibility and hold that tradition is as inspired as Bible itself. But when exactly was this position really promoted and accepted? Since the 1st Ecumenical Synod? As far as I know, no. I don't think that any "Father of the Church" at that period considered his words or the words of any synod equal to words of the Bible. On the contrary, I think that this idea came centuries later, only after the solid establishment of the religious order of things and after the full development of the mystic theology, that resulted to many supernatural experiences among the monks that would be considered as revelations of the God's word equual to the Bible or even superior. Please make comments if you can shed some light on my query.-- Vassilis78 11:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Therefore, only some passages were recorded in the New Testament, so that this would act as a distinct verification of the truth that the Holy Bible is only a portion of the whole Truth that was delivered by Christ to the saints, who had in turn lived that Truth in the Holy Spirit. So, whenever we regard the Holy Bible as the only source of divine Revelation, we are in fact mutilating whatever Truth and whatever Revelation God had delivered to His friends (the saints) and has been preserved within the Church.— Rev. Metropolitan of Nafpaktos, fr. Hierotheos Vlachos, The Revelation of God.
- The Holy Bible is a guide towards God, but this description of God in the Holy Bible has no actual similarity to God. It speaks of God, it speaks of the truth, but it is not the Truth itself. It is a guide towards the Truth and the Path, which is Christ. Because the words contained in the Holy Bible are merely symbols which contain certain meanings. These meanings are all human and they lead to God, to Christ, and nothing else.
- Thus, when one simply reads the Holy Bible, he cannot properly theologize on the basis of the Holy Bible alone. If he does do that, he cannot avoid becoming a heretic, because the proper interpretation of the Holy Bible is accompanied by the experience of enlightenment or theosis. Without enlightenment or theosis, the Holy Bible cannot be interpreted correctly. Just as by simply reading a book on surgery, one cannot become a surgeon unless he takes lessons in Medical School and practices surgery near an experienced professor, thus it is with any other positive science, where one must practice in order to go from practice and experience to the verifying and determination of the theory. In other words, a theory is determined whether it is true, through empirical practice, through empirical knowledge.
- In the same way, one who doesn’t approach the Holy Bible through connoisseurs, i.e., through people who have attained the same experience as the Prophets or the Apostles, who are the Fathers of the Church, cannot become certain of the truth of the Holy Bible. The basis, the foundation of this experience, is enlightenment and theosis, in other words, glorification.— Protopresbyter John S. Romanides, Patristic Theology.
"The Church made the Bible, so the Church has authority to change a rule when it is needed."- The answer you got was wrong and misrepresents the Orthodox perspective. The Church can only interpret the Bible, not change it. Besides that, the Bible is not the Word of God, Jesus is, as the gospel of John says in it's opening. The Bible is infallible on a theological and moral level, but not on a scientific level.
Aisde from the fact that "Catholocism" mispells "Catholicism", I regard this as Hate Speech directed against Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox. Worse, it is an eggregious attemt to malign Eastern Orthodoxy, poisoning the well in that it imples that Calvinism is ascriptural. I notice that whenever some Eastern Orthodox Criticism appears to ANY Calvinist Doctrine, some self-appointed cop removes it from the Wiki, and gives lame excuses for doing so.
I reccommend the withdrawal of this entire inflamatorily biased article.
It is Wikipedia usage to identify the source of neologisms and other expressions in the opening lines. I have made no change in the wording but have merely shifted one sentence forward to identify the origin of this expression.
"The term 'the Great Apostasy' is a touchstone (or shibboleth) that separates mainstream Christian churches from radicals. One useful definition of 'mainstream Christianity' in practice, is whether terms like 'the Great Apostasy' are considered acceptable or not." This new second paragraph is perfectly NPOV. It takes no stand on the acceptability of this phrase or is accuracy. It merely expresses this clear existing division between mainstream and radical churches akong this particular line. I expect that it will be suppressed, nevertheless. Wetman 18:37, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Wow. I never knew that so many people were Mormon. I did a quick search on "Great Apostasy" on Google and the first two pages only showed one LDS-related link each page. The rest were a splattering of Protestant, Catholic etc. sites. Yes, even Catholic authors. One was had a link to a book ( http://cultproof.cephasministry.com/apostasy.html) about the great apostasy, that was from a Protestant author, not the famous Talmage book.
Although the term is used frequently in the Mormon Church, it was not coined by them. James Talmage, the author of the book Great Apostasy, may helped with its more widespread adoption in the early 1900s, but it was certainly not coined by him or the church by any means. All you have to do is read the book to know that. I'll look for other pre-1920 references of the term and provide.
I have spoken with many minister-friends that use the term. Most of them Southern Baptist, Methodist or from one of the many the "non-denominational" evangelical denominations. For sure, its current use is not Mormon in nature. I believe the form of the current first paragraph is very POV, and should be reverted to the prior reading and its prior POV, which has more of the appearance of being factual (no attack meant - just the current reading doesn't seem neutral toward those who believe in a "great apostasy"). - Visorstuff 22:50, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
A 'reputed' Great Apostasy is a category (often considered inflammatory) which is used by some Christian churches with an evangelical bent to reproach other Christian churches, that are perceived as having become compromised and part of a secular establishment. Compare '
Whore of Babylon.' The term first appeared in [add history of the term here].
How is that for a better first or second paragraph? Can one write an NPOV entry that doesn't identify the authors of what is patently a 'reproach'? This entry as it stands is propaganda. Dispured NPOV needs to be added, as the history pages demonstrate. If religious advocates have a concept of a balanced discussion, they need to show it here. Wetman 23:45, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)~
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This started as a strong LDS POV advocacy; I think I may have just "balanced" it by adding a strong dose of my own POV towards the end. Help, corrections or additions are sought and welcomed; I'll try think of ways to balance it further as well. Thanks. Wesley
JW's also believe in the Great Apostacy, but have a slightly different take on it (since they don't see the Mormon priesthood as valid). The article was so strongly based on the LDS point of view, I was relucant to leap in and NPOV it; it looked like a lot of work. -- Clutch 18:54 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)
I've added a short introductory paragraph. There are probably more commonalities; I just didn't want to dig into the long LDS paragraph. Feel free to expand, reorganize, add the JW take, etc. This is still a work in progress. Wesley
Why was "Christian tradition" changed to "mainstream Christianity"? Just wondering... Wesley
I'm not sure which post you're referring to on Talk:Christianity; must have been under a different username. I can see that an unqualified reference to "tradition" may be controversial, but history... if the LDS believes they're in line with the early church up until the 3rd or 4th century, and the ancient Americans up until around 600AD, then by their own account they are not part of history between 600AD and sometime in the 1800s when Joseph Smith came to prominence. The religion generally referred to as "Christianity" does have a history that includes that time frame. Wesley 16:52 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)
The text of the article had a query asking for a Reformation perspective from the Lutherans and Calvinists. I have done my best to supply it. It may well have POV problems; please bear in mind that I have not been one quarter as vehement as folks were back then. --- User:Ihcoyc
I strongly object to the deletion of the following text:
A prominent theme of most of Ignatius' writings is that every Christian should obey his bishop; it's what he is most know for. I'll look up a couple of more precise references this weekend. The church's emphasis on order can also be seen in the New Testament in the apostles' appointing seven deacons to oversee the food distribution in the book of Acts; and in many of Paul's epistles, particularly the pastoral epistles directed to Timothy and Titus. They clearly had bishops/overseers, elders/presbyters, and deacons from almost the very beginning. What evidence does Ellul offer of the early Church's anarchy?
Some early saints who were also soldiers, with links, include: the Holy Martyr Hermas ( http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/may/may-31.html); The Holy Martyr Hieron and the 33 Martyrs of Melitene ( http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/november/nov-07.html); Saint Mauricios, a military commander of Syrian Apameia, suffered in the year 305 under the emperor Maximian Galerius (305-311) together with his son Photinos and 70 soldiers under his command ( http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/february/feb-22.html). These saints suffered because they were Christians, or because they would not sacrifice to the pagan gods when ordered to do so, but did not voluntarily cease their military service because they were Christians. All of them predate Ellul's "dramatic shift". What evidence does Ellul give that the earlier church was decidedly anti-military? Wesley 17:36 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)
Ignatius recommended listening to ones bishop only in spiritual things. Even in anarchy, groups have leaders. The early church was definately anti-statist and didn't allow military service. Therefore Jacques Ellul was perfectly correct in stating what he did. He wrote a whole book on the anarchistic tendencies of early Christianity, which is well researched. He even quoted Ignatius. Check it out from your local library Anarchy and Christianity by Jacques Ellul. I can see why that would be an uncomfortable revelation for people who view the church as the hand-maiden of the state.
As for the military Christians, they became Christians while in the military, and didn't have the option of just dropping out. They were in it for their 20 year spell. Even today, desertion is punishable by death. It was worse back then. And when time came that they had to violate their Christian consciences by killing someone, they refused. That is why they were martyred in the first place, and why they were recorded. Ellul discusses this in detail.
-- Clutch 00:12 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)
I have a couple issues regarding the Latter-Day Saints section as it stands right now, particularly with the way it presents history. I don't mind the article presenting the LDS view when it's labeled as such, but right now it seems to take for granted a number of events as facts that, well, differ from how I and I think a number of others see that period of history. First, those who argued in favor of the doctrine of the Trinity believed that they were defending and existing doctrine, and that Arius' doctrine was the new innovation that should be rejected. Thus, to say that the First Ecumenical Council adopted the doctrine is to present the Arian position as historically factual; that's how I read the article at present. Second, regarding the persecutions, it seems clear from most of the accounts of martyrdoms that the Roman authorities didn't care much about Christian theology so long as they would still offer sacrifices to the Roman gods. They made no attempt to get Christians to compromise, other than to persuade them to offer these sacrifices, or at least that's how the martyrologies that I've read seem to present it. When the Romans wanted to flush all the Christians out of a city, they would just require everyone in town to register and offer sacrifices at a specific time, so they could more easily identify the Christians and arrest or kill them.
I see that the same concern regarding how the Trinity and the First Council of Nicaea is discussed also applies to the Adventist section. I'm uncertain of exactly how the article should be changed to reflect the two rather different views of what happened. Any suggestions? Wesley 21:35 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)
Which denominations use this actual term? Or are we just coining a term to cover a range of interpretations? - which we should not do. My concern is raised because this page is being used as justification on the Christianity article but nowhere off Wikipedia can I find anyone using this definition. Rmhermen 14:58 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Some comments below were moved here from Talk:Christianity
I'll try to avoid bringing up the logic problems raised by claiming the church was already apostate in the first century... Wesley 20:23 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think this article (particularly the sub-heading "Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy") has an evident bias.
1. Statements such as "Protestants often assume that practices that seem especially strange to them... must have been introduced after the time of Constantine. Documents from the pre-Constantine church often show otherwise." offer only a caricature of the wide spectrum of Protestant belief without documentation and then follow it by the refutation of a straw man. [In fact, many (if not most protestants) don't disparage but rather encourage fasting or holidays, particularly if they remain adiaphorous rather than compulsory. Their justification for the view is based on St. Paul's rejecting false teachers who insist on keeping days to earn God's favor (as in his epistle to the Galatians) but accepting Christians who keep days "holy unto the Lord" (as in his epistle to the Romans). The same things can be said of ascetic practices (fasting, celibacy, etc.): the Bible affirms one form as good and another as evil. Thus, this article is at least overly general because it condenses all forms of fasting (for instance) into the word "fasting" and then asserts Protestants general rejection of fasting as "strange." Compare John Piper's recent books on fasting and sacrificial living (or what we might call "semi-ascetic" living, since it's not quite monkish) for a Protestant's take.]
2. Elsewhere in the article, the Protestants' efforts at missions are said to be waged "largely without the benefit of two millennia of experience that the historic Christian faith has to offer." This article notes elsewhere that the Protestants consider *themselves* to be the "historic Christian faith," and it also mentions that some Protestants, particularly the Lutherans and Calvinists, uphold the saints of the past -- including the Church Fathers -- as righteous but flawed men. The Protestants attempt to imitate them insofar as they imitate Christ, and they weigh the church triumphant's teachings against their own understanding Bible before accepting the teachings. Thus, they would not consider themselves as neglecting the "historic Christian faith," and the judgment against them is unwarranted and biased.
3. "In response to the claim that the church's response to one heresy led to an overcorrection in the opposite direction, **it can only be admitted that this is always a real danger.**" This statement (among others) seems clearly to be written by a Roman Catholic or Orthodox apologist rather than a "neutral observer." The paragraph beginning with "Compounding this risk of overcorrection..." is likewise a defense of Catholicism/Orthodoxy and an attack on Protestantism that is not relevant to the article at hand, at least in the way it is presented here.
4. "Restricting worship to a mental exercise removes the ‘strength’ element of loving God...." As it is written, this paragraph is clearly a defense of Catholicism/Orthodoxy and an implicit attack on Protestantism, who are again caricatured. Many protestants, especially the Lutheran and Calvinists, also believe that creation is good but deny that "[t]he epitome of the action occurs in the Eucharistic sacrifice." This article is not an objective account of the matter.
5. My suggestion is that the text under sub-heading "Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy" should either be removed or re-written in a more neutral point of view. Flex 17:03, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
P.S. It's generally considered polite to sign your talk page posts, using 4 tildes, like this ~~~~
As I think I was probably the initial author of the "Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy" section, let me share some of its history. (For the record, I'm an Orthodox Christian, a convert from Protestantism.) This article began by explaining the Mormon idea of the Great Apostasy, how all of Christendom fell away from the original teachings of Jesus Christ, and remained in this state until Joseph Smith, Jr. brought the revelation he received from his visions and so forth and founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think I added a brief "rebuttal" section at that time. Later, others added reasons why the Protestants thought that the Catholics had fallen away from Christ's teachings, generally the well-known justifications for the Protestant Reformation. Many (but not all) of these critiques wind up being applied to the Orthodox as well. So, I tried to extend the "rebuttal" section to answer those claims, generally trying to match the structure of the section to the broad outline of the rest of the article as it existed at the time. It seemed better to put these answers in their own section, so that their POV could be identified, rather than intermix them in the rest of the article.
The very premise of this article is POV to begin with; it was initially proffering a Mormon POV, and was later extended to encompass the broader Protestant POV. It seems to me the only thing that salvages it is having some sort of "rebuttal" section, weak though it may be. There are probably better ways to say it, but there needs to be some explanation of why the Orthodox (and Catholics) think there has never been a "Great Apostasy" as described in the bulk of this article. I may try to answer your specific objections another time, but wanted to make sure you were aware of some background first. Wesley 21:16, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've read through the article for the first time in many months; with that in mind let me try to address the numbered objections. 1. Granted, the Catholic/Orthodox section presents a very broad view of Protestantism that may seem like a caricature, especially if you're particularly familiary with one slice of Protestantism. That's impossible to avoid in anything approaching this amount of space, considering there are over 30,000 denominations. Would the section really be improved by, perhaps, separately addressing the various groups of Protestants that are mentioned earlier in the article, i.e. the Mormons, Anabaptists, Anglicans, etc.? I did try to revise what it says about the general Protestant attitude towards fasting however; I hope you find that a small improvement.
2. The Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura leaves them effectively without the help of the Church Fathers. They may read the Church Fathers, but they reserve the right to reject the view of any one of them or all of them if it disagrees with their personal interpretation of the scripture. Not all Protestants take sola scriptura quite to this extreme, but your description certainly appears to. The Pope himself reads the Church Fathers as well, but reserves final judgment to himself; each Protestant does the same, or else ignores the Fathers entirely since only the Bible is needed.
3. Certainly it's a defense; much of the material elsewhere in this same article is an attack. Any specific suggestions on how to improve the presentation?
4. Again, sure it lumps all Protestants together when in fact they're a very diverse bunch. Would it improve things to address different groupings separately?
I'd like the section to stay; I don't necessarily think it needs to grow to be half the size of the entire article. I'm not sure how to address your concerns without doing that, though I'm open to suggestions. Wesley 04:51, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
I've changed the order of discussion here. It seems to me that it makes more sense to discuss this in a historical framework, and thus to start out with the original reformation churches (Lutheran and Calvinist, Anabaptist, Anglican), and then go on to discuss the modern churches (Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS). Lutheran and Calvinist should come first, as this was the first theory of great apostasy, and the one which we discuss in greatest length. It should certainly come before the discussion of the Anglicans, since the latter presumes that one is already familiar with Lutheran and Calvinist ideas of the Great Apostasy. I've no opinion on whether Anabaptists or Anglicans should come first (although Anabaptists were chronologically first, so I left them in front), and no real sense of what a good order for the later churches would be. I think it's fine to keep the Catholic and Orthodox discussions last, since they do not believe in a great apostasy, so the discussion there is of a different kind from the discussions of the churches that do or did believe in a great apostasy. john k 16:18, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I felt it was necessary to expound on the reasons why I edited. The original reads as:
They don't "affirm" anything, because they legitimately cannot. However, they can "claim" "their ecclesiastical structure... liturgical..." was similar to that of the first congregation. Just reading that first sentence over and over again further drives my belief that the entire paragraph needs to be re-written or deleted entirely as it's hopelessly innacurate and misleading.
Not even close. The apostles practiced communion annually (on Nisan 14), not weekly (and not on the 3rd sunday of the month in the case of Easter). They didn't know what "Stations of the Cross" were. They didn't take the communion with a mandatory right over left hand. They didn't make the sign of a cross on their chests before sitting in a pew. They can "claim", they cannot "affirm."
That's entirely untrue as an "affirmation". As a "claim", it is false. A bit of history: Constantine defeated Maxentius in 312 at Milvian Bridge where he allegedly saw the "In hoc signo vinces", as a result he deliberately allied himself with Christianity (though he still worshipped the Roman sun god). In 313 he declared tolerance of all religions (around the same time Eusebius became the Bishop of Caesarea Palaestina). In 325 Constantine called the first Ecumenical Council with the PRIMARY INTENTION OF ESTABLISHING AN ORTHODOX Christian faith. And yes, the changes were quite "radical." For the first time ever, the various doctrines and creeds that were invented, or established as orthodox, were now not only Orthodox, but the church had a new aura of authority due in very large part to Constantine and the highly influential Eusebius. Congregations that differed in beliefs were no longer passively disregarded, or written against by the various Ante-Nicene "Fathers" (Arians/Gnostics), they were no longer even considered to be Christian. This new "Orthodoxy" along with Constantines encouragement of Christian political and military involvement was radically new to Christianity and was A COMPLETE REVERSAL of former Christian life, liturgical practice, and doctrinal beliefs.
I changed "Many elements" to just: "Elements...". The only element that I can think of that has been consistent pre/post Nicea is the use of the bible, but doctinally and liturgically they're near polar opposites. It's true you'll find information on general Christian lifestyle and teachings in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers but to infer that those teachings and lifestyles corrospond to those of "Orthodoxy" is 100% dishonest, ignorant, fiction.
The above list is just differences in lifestyle with the notable exception of the point regarding the Trinity doctrine. Doctrine as a whole was developed post Jesus so to what degree they believed something, and why, is really beyond what I'm going after, I just cited the Trinity as the embodiment of doctrinal change on the whole from pre to post Nicea. No honest historian would try to argue against the fact that Constantine with Eusebius' influence, turned the Christian world up-side-down. Duffer 01:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article is getting sidetracked by a lot of denominational apologetics. In the first place, the whole section on Catholicism and Orthodoxy seems to be there not so much to explain the views of Catholics and Orthodox as to advocate their views. This should be avoided. On the other hand, Duffer's comments suggest apologetics in the opposite direction - an attempt to prove that there was a great apostasy. To be fair, Duffer's actual edits have not been terribly POV. But it seems to me that we might perhaps do more to explain what about the traditions of the early church fathers Catholics and Orthodox point to, and what their various opponents point to. It is rather clear - to me, at least, as an agnostic Jew - that no single denomination can claim a monopoly on the inheritance of the early church, and we ought probably to make this clear. john k 01:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would add that Duffer seems to be imputing much more radical changes to the Council of Nicea than I have ever read about. Indeed, Christianity changed a great deal between the time of the first apostles and the era of the Reformation (and Catholicism and Orthodoxy have both changed a great deal since then, as well). But Duffer's claims here seem to suggest that all (or most, at least) of those changes were a result of Nicea, which I have never heard anywhere. Certainly, the rosary (which came into being in its final form in the 13th century and is not, so far as I am aware, used by the Orthodox) cannot be blamed on the Council of Nicea. Nor can the cult of the Virgin Mary. Or the supremacy of the Pope. Or the idea of "orthodoxy" or the fact that the modern Catholic church (and mainline protestants, and so forth) are reluctant to excommunicate people. Or much else. The fact that the Catholic Church in 2005 is very different from the Christianity of the early church fathers is not terribly surprising. But claiming that this has to do in some way with the Council of Nicea, particularly, seems dubious. And claiming that any other Christian group has any better claim to the mantle is even more so. john k 01:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The overview has some significant problems. For one it seems to think that all churches desire to return to the state of the 1st Century church (not necessarily the case). Also it assumes that all church splits were as a result of a perceived 'straying' of whatever-church-it-split-from from the early church teachings. Not necessarily the case. Some churches split because of practice, not theology - i.e. the church was viewed as corrupt in practice, not necessarily deficient in theology. Anglicanism made relatively few changes in theology in its split from Catholicism; Methodism was formed from Anglicanism simply because it would not permit the Wesleys the freedom to do what they thought right. The Salvation Army was formed for similar reasons. I'm sure there are others. DJ Clayworth 16:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the statement that 'The concept of a great apostacy is essential to the formation of a new denomination'. Simply not the case. Many denominations are formed without any concept of a Great Apostacy. I've mentioned Methodism and the Salvation Army above. I can come up with plenty of others. DJ Clayworth 16:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Somehow there also seems to be a huge section discussing Anglicanism, despite the fact that Anglicans pretty much reject the idea of a Great Apostacy. Shouldn't this be mentioned? DJ Clayworth 16:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Any particular reason we don't mention that Gnostic Christians expressed similar views about the developing Church at the time? We could take a few sentences to describe the main similarities and differences between the Gnostic view and this claim about a Great Apostasy. Dan 05:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Much of this article, particularly the second half, is written from a highly sympathetic, and nearly first person, point of view. I ask for objectivity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.22.22.101 ( talk) 20:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
I would go beyond limiting that to the second half or "Reformed Viewpoint" - the whole article is a mess, nicely dividing it into 'viewpoints' has allowed for it to become a religious thought board, drawn on denominational lines, and the article has no overall coherent narrative. I think much of the article should be deleted altogether. Further editors need to consider what Wikipedia is not. Brando130 16:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
This section claims "To oversimplify greatly" - it does more then that. It confuses history, fictionalizes the present, and is just wrong. Starting with the second paragraph there is almost nothing that can be salvaged. I already had cut some nonsense from the section on the second paragraph when I realized the whole thing needed to go:
The reception of the Reformation views of a general falling away from the Christian faith, by the Church of England and other churches of the Anglican and Episcopalian denomination is a historically complex subject. As a state church, the Church of England attempted to unite all the people of England in a single church. However, the English disagreed amongst themselves about the retention of various ceremonies of Roman Catholicism, and about Arminian versus Calvinist theologies.
Political issues shaped English attitudes towards Roman Catholicism. Due to Papal attacks on the legitimacy of the English monarchy, expressed via the Spanish Armada and the " Marian Persecutions " under Mary I of England, many Britons were disposed to see Roman Catholicism as a hostile authoritarian force. The Stuart monarchs, however, wished to cement political alliances--often via marriage--with Continental powers, including Roman Catholic monarchs.
To oversimplify greatly, there arose a " high church" party within the Church of England and a " low church" party allied with Puritanism. The high church party had Anglo-Catholic and Arminian tendencies, and wished to continue at least some of the pageantry of Roman Catholic ritual. The low church party was Calvinist and wished to move the Church of England in the direction of the Reformed churches. The low church party, sometimes called the Evangelical wing, was much more open to the vehement language of the Continental reformers about the Great Apostasy than was the more liturgical, high church party. Officially, churches of the Anglican persuasion teach that Rome has fallen into error. The Thirty-Nine Articles provide that:
- 19. Of the Church
- . . .
- As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred; so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.
- 21. Of the Authority of General Councils
- General Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of Princes. And when they be gathered together, (forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God,) they may err, and sometimes have erred, even in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture.
- (Article 21 was abrogated in 1801 by the Episcopal Church in the USA because of its reference to "Princes".)
- 22. Of Purgatory
- The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.
The Anglican churches therefore officially teach that the Roman Catholic Church has on certain issues fallen into error and incorporated some wrong teaching and practices into its worship. The stress any given Anglican will put on these teachings will depend on where that person fits into the continuum of Anglo-Catholicism versus Anglo-Protestantism. Modern efforts of reconciliation have gone a long way toward reversal of former hostilities between Anglican churches, and the Catholic and Orthodox communions.
To jump from "error" to "apostasy" is HUGE. Anglo-Proestantism - that is WP:NEO. I have never heard that expression in either historical or theological contexts. I am working on the Thirty-Nine Articles right now and I know that NO version of the Articles uses the phrase "Great Apostasy" in them. They merit no mention here. I will try to get somebody over here to add something from the Anglican perspective. The whole passage reads like WP:OR. -- SECisek 05:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
"Reponses of Roman Catholocism and Orthodox Christianity" might be more suitable. Also, does anyone have any thughts as to why the "traditionalist" view is under this heading? LCP 22:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The article says:
The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches had developed from early on the idea of infallibility of the Church — that the Church may speak entirely without error in particular councils or edicts
It is true that for long the Catholic and Orthodox Churches speak about infallibility and hold that tradition is as inspired as Bible itself. But when exactly was this position really promoted and accepted? Since the 1st Ecumenical Synod? As far as I know, no. I don't think that any "Father of the Church" at that period considered his words or the words of any synod equal to words of the Bible. On the contrary, I think that this idea came centuries later, only after the solid establishment of the religious order of things and after the full development of the mystic theology, that resulted to many supernatural experiences among the monks that would be considered as revelations of the God's word equual to the Bible or even superior. Please make comments if you can shed some light on my query.-- Vassilis78 11:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Therefore, only some passages were recorded in the New Testament, so that this would act as a distinct verification of the truth that the Holy Bible is only a portion of the whole Truth that was delivered by Christ to the saints, who had in turn lived that Truth in the Holy Spirit. So, whenever we regard the Holy Bible as the only source of divine Revelation, we are in fact mutilating whatever Truth and whatever Revelation God had delivered to His friends (the saints) and has been preserved within the Church.— Rev. Metropolitan of Nafpaktos, fr. Hierotheos Vlachos, The Revelation of God.
- The Holy Bible is a guide towards God, but this description of God in the Holy Bible has no actual similarity to God. It speaks of God, it speaks of the truth, but it is not the Truth itself. It is a guide towards the Truth and the Path, which is Christ. Because the words contained in the Holy Bible are merely symbols which contain certain meanings. These meanings are all human and they lead to God, to Christ, and nothing else.
- Thus, when one simply reads the Holy Bible, he cannot properly theologize on the basis of the Holy Bible alone. If he does do that, he cannot avoid becoming a heretic, because the proper interpretation of the Holy Bible is accompanied by the experience of enlightenment or theosis. Without enlightenment or theosis, the Holy Bible cannot be interpreted correctly. Just as by simply reading a book on surgery, one cannot become a surgeon unless he takes lessons in Medical School and practices surgery near an experienced professor, thus it is with any other positive science, where one must practice in order to go from practice and experience to the verifying and determination of the theory. In other words, a theory is determined whether it is true, through empirical practice, through empirical knowledge.
- In the same way, one who doesn’t approach the Holy Bible through connoisseurs, i.e., through people who have attained the same experience as the Prophets or the Apostles, who are the Fathers of the Church, cannot become certain of the truth of the Holy Bible. The basis, the foundation of this experience, is enlightenment and theosis, in other words, glorification.— Protopresbyter John S. Romanides, Patristic Theology.
"The Church made the Bible, so the Church has authority to change a rule when it is needed."- The answer you got was wrong and misrepresents the Orthodox perspective. The Church can only interpret the Bible, not change it. Besides that, the Bible is not the Word of God, Jesus is, as the gospel of John says in it's opening. The Bible is infallible on a theological and moral level, but not on a scientific level.
Aisde from the fact that "Catholocism" mispells "Catholicism", I regard this as Hate Speech directed against Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox. Worse, it is an eggregious attemt to malign Eastern Orthodoxy, poisoning the well in that it imples that Calvinism is ascriptural. I notice that whenever some Eastern Orthodox Criticism appears to ANY Calvinist Doctrine, some self-appointed cop removes it from the Wiki, and gives lame excuses for doing so.
I reccommend the withdrawal of this entire inflamatorily biased article.
It is Wikipedia usage to identify the source of neologisms and other expressions in the opening lines. I have made no change in the wording but have merely shifted one sentence forward to identify the origin of this expression.
"The term 'the Great Apostasy' is a touchstone (or shibboleth) that separates mainstream Christian churches from radicals. One useful definition of 'mainstream Christianity' in practice, is whether terms like 'the Great Apostasy' are considered acceptable or not." This new second paragraph is perfectly NPOV. It takes no stand on the acceptability of this phrase or is accuracy. It merely expresses this clear existing division between mainstream and radical churches akong this particular line. I expect that it will be suppressed, nevertheless. Wetman 18:37, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Wow. I never knew that so many people were Mormon. I did a quick search on "Great Apostasy" on Google and the first two pages only showed one LDS-related link each page. The rest were a splattering of Protestant, Catholic etc. sites. Yes, even Catholic authors. One was had a link to a book ( http://cultproof.cephasministry.com/apostasy.html) about the great apostasy, that was from a Protestant author, not the famous Talmage book.
Although the term is used frequently in the Mormon Church, it was not coined by them. James Talmage, the author of the book Great Apostasy, may helped with its more widespread adoption in the early 1900s, but it was certainly not coined by him or the church by any means. All you have to do is read the book to know that. I'll look for other pre-1920 references of the term and provide.
I have spoken with many minister-friends that use the term. Most of them Southern Baptist, Methodist or from one of the many the "non-denominational" evangelical denominations. For sure, its current use is not Mormon in nature. I believe the form of the current first paragraph is very POV, and should be reverted to the prior reading and its prior POV, which has more of the appearance of being factual (no attack meant - just the current reading doesn't seem neutral toward those who believe in a "great apostasy"). - Visorstuff 22:50, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
A 'reputed' Great Apostasy is a category (often considered inflammatory) which is used by some Christian churches with an evangelical bent to reproach other Christian churches, that are perceived as having become compromised and part of a secular establishment. Compare '
Whore of Babylon.' The term first appeared in [add history of the term here].
How is that for a better first or second paragraph? Can one write an NPOV entry that doesn't identify the authors of what is patently a 'reproach'? This entry as it stands is propaganda. Dispured NPOV needs to be added, as the history pages demonstrate. If religious advocates have a concept of a balanced discussion, they need to show it here. Wetman 23:45, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)~