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Can someone please explain the goto relation to object oriented programing specifically? It seems that it is a compromise between pro and con beliefs on using goto, but that is (my) layman's conjecture. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.3.105 ( talk) 23:58, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Because of the current popularity of Java, would it be appropriate to discuss the labeled break and labeled continue statements in this article? It has always seemed to me that these constructs, though rarely used, are gotos with restrictions as to where you can "go to". -- Eraticus 23:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Does this belong here? Looks like a commercial promotion to me. Any other comments? (Personal POV: I mean apart from the bizzare idea of porting Fortran to Java without rewriting it; this is a joke, right?; the idea that adding jumps to Java would help; the idea that you would actually have something bug free at the end of it; the amazing amount of effort and hacks to get this into Java; why not leave it in fortran? (End personal POV) peterl 03:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The article is missing a section on GOTO in assembly language. In assembly (eg PIC ASM), there are no high-level constructs such as for/if-then-else/break etc. There are only: Call/Return, Goto (=Jump) and Conditional Jump (eg the pic's skipz/skipnz). Things such as if-elseif-else are built out of conditional jumps: practically every flow-control structure in assembly is a Goto. -- RichardNeill 05:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Move. Although the (Fortran) tradition is there, I don't see a compelling reason to override MOS:CAPS; the command is genericized enough in many programming languages. See also Category:Control flow.
The criticism section had been marked with NPOV. But no explanation was given. The section is well referenced, and the fact that is is criticism doesn't make it POV. Please explain if you want to add that marker back in. peterl ( talk) 04:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
It was written as an April fool's joke, it works and includes a "comefrom" statement, but there is REALLY no need for it in the language ;)
An open-source licensed project called JavaGoto. Maybe it has some usefulness in teaching (what GOTO is and why not to use it). https://github.com/footloosejava/JavaGoto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.7.38.170 ( talk) 04:22, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Since there seems to be much ado over GOTO vs GoTo, goto, gOTo, etc., it must be important, so I think there should be some mention of the COBOL form being two words. Georget99 ( talk) 20:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Why on earth are we citing Linux Torvalds as an authority on this particular aspect of computer science? I've removed an extensive verbatim quote of an email he supposedly once sent to the kerneltrap mailing list (!). -- TS 18:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
if you still insist: In 1997 he received his Master degree (Laudatur Grade) from Department of Computer Science, University of Helsinki. In 1998 he received an EFF Pioneer Award.[24] In 1999 he received honorary doctor status at Stockholm University. In 2000 he received honorary doctor status at University of Helsinki.[25] In 2000 he was awarded the Lovelace Medal.[26] (...) In 2004, he was named one of the most influential people in the world by the Time magazine article "Linus Torvalds: The Free-Software Champion" by Lawrence Lessig[28] (...) In August 2005, Torvalds received the Vollum Award from Reed College.[30] In 2006, Time Magazine—Europe Edition named him one of the revolutionary heroes of the past 60 years.[32] In 2008, he was inducted into the Hall of Fellows of the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California.[33][34] please do some research on these awards...
they aren't given to random people with no knowledge of CS, and they are given to people both widely respected, acknowledged and influential. isn't that enough for someone's opinion on the subject to be notable enough to matter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(people)
it's quite easy to prove Linus Torvalds' notability in the field of programming. developing and maintaining the world's most known free-source operating system should be enough by itself;
so please, either prove that Torvalds SHOULD'T be considered an authority when it comes to CS in his field of interest (and low-level programming is DIRECTLY related to GOTO use - PLEASE do the research on your own, because the relation it's quite obvious to anybody with a basic knowledge of assembler/C/kernel programming), or declare the dispute closed.
GOTO - isn't "break" and "continue" just an internal goto ( compiler supplies the label). Is a pointer a calculated goto ( ie GOTO variable - really old construction, apparently abandoned because it causes as much problems as pointers) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
13:14, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
The referenced person is clearly used as an example which is helpful. Besides without links/ references everything would have to be fully explained (Ctrl+C , Cntrl+V) on every wiki page. This point/ argument is isomorphic to the article's argument on goto's controversy, and that is quite cute.
Goto should be described as an unconditional jump. A plain goto is not a branching statement. Only if goto is preceded by an if (or similar) it works in a conditional way. (or if it's a computed goto or any of the more exotic variants) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.175.168 ( talk) 08:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the request for citations starting:
Some[which?] programming style coding standards prohibit...
Possible citations are
[1] "It is good programming style to use the break, continue, and return statement in preference to goto whenever possible."
[2] "Chapter 7: Centralized exiting of functions
Albeit deprecated by some people, the equivalent of the goto statement is used frequently by compilers..."
The python discussion about a Python goto is quite interesting
[3]
"This PEP is not a proposal to add GOTO to Python. GOTO allows a programmer to jump to an arbitrary block or line of code, and generally makes control flow more difficult to follow."
It might be helpful to rephrase the sentence:
Some programming style coding standards discourage... while some do not
ProgrammerMax ( talk) 20:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
References
Dijkstra claims that "goto considered harmful" was not the original title of his article. The title was changed by the editor, Niklaus Wirth.
Dijkstra tells the story in this video beginning at 4:22: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40CNRVHLt7A&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL7D42CB0A207D79B6#t=255s Prof. Edsger Dijkstra on "Structured Programming" at "Software Pioneers",sd&m Conference 2001, Bonn, Germany
I don't have time to transcribe the story now but it would be a good addition (and correction) to this article.
I haven't read the "considered harmful" paper in a while, but going by what Dijkstra says in the video, the paper is an analysis, not a criticism in the derogatory sense -- in which case the current wording of the wikipedia article is biased.
Ross bencina ( talk) 05:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Original title was "A Case Against the Goto Statement". You're kind of right on this one, Ross. AFAIR, it was along the lines you're talking about - the whole 'criticism' was the result of a style war that erupted *after* the article, not the article itself IMO. Still, Dijjie said in that article: "The go to statement as it stands is just too primitive, it is too much an invitation to make a mess of one's program."
It IS a negative criticism, but Dij says himself that it's his *opinion*, based on what he seen - not an arbitrary, scientific fact. And I'm with him on this one.
Further reading: Considered harmful
Vaxquis ( talk) 17:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
The section states that MISRA C Coding Standard prohibit the use of GOTO statements. This is not the case since MISRA2012:
Simzer ( talk) 15:33, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Is Apples Security failure missing in the article? :) 87.78.122.110 ( talk) 20:00, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
"An empirical study of goto in C code" (2015 paper) https://peerj.com/preprints/826v1.pdf and https://peerj.com/preprints/826v1/
"We conclude that developers limit themselves to using goto appropriately in most cases, thus suggesting that goto does not appear to be harmful in practice."
• Sbmeirow • Talk • 21:51, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
select case/etc are just computed goto - same use/results/speed. If they weren't the same programs would run really slow - half the assembly codes would be unsued. 2601:181:8000:D6D0:7855:5B43:1B2A:B0F4 ( talk) 16:23, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
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The link to this doesn't work any longer: Sexton, Alex. "The Summer of Goto | Official Home of Goto.js". Retrieved April 28, 2012. Mikael4u ( talk) 21:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
In APL there is no alternative to 'goto'-like branching, because it does not have instructions like if/else/switch. How about include a section about good branching techniques for such kind of programming languages? ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.236.47.163 ( talk) 23:07, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Here is an interesting reference (see pages 10-11): ASWIEKE.PDF — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.236.87.112 ( talk) 19:52, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
The Wheeler jump was the prototype for a subroutine jump -- i.e., save current instruction counter somewhere such that it can be used for subroutine return -- and not for a simple goto. The EDSAC already had 'goto' in the hardware: branch instructions E and G. What Wheeler devised was the coding sequences for 'save position and branch to specified location' and 'branch to saved position'. This is tantamount to inventing the closed subroutine.
The IEEE citation unfortunately described this as the 'precursor to goto' rather than 'precursor to gosub', an error that ought to be obvious since it also says 'to allow a program to pass control to a subroutine'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.20.234.238 ( talk) 21:37, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
The Bohm and Jacopini paper "Flow Diagrams, Turing Machines and Languages with Only Two Formation Rules", didn't claim, much less prove, "that the goto statement is not necessary to write programs"; the scope of the paper was limited to programs that could be expressed as flow charts. It did not cover programs with subroutines, much less goto statements that unwound the stack. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 16:13, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Article says "In Perl, there is a variant of the goto statement that is not a traditional GOTO statement at all. It takes a function name and transfers control by effectively substituting one function call for another (a tail call): the new function will not return to the GOTO, but instead to the place from which the original function was called."
This is absolutely a traditional GOTO; you can do exactly that with an ordinary jump instruction in machine code.
It's just not "traditional" in the narrow context of the history of a family of higher level languages that have always had a restricted form of GOTO.
Moreover, of course "the new function will not return to the GOTO"; GOTO isn't expected to return, unless it is GOSUB: a subroutine calling form of GOTO.
KazKylheku ( talk) 19:38, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
“Many languages support the goto statement, and many do not”
I feel that this statement is so vague as to be pointless at best and confusing at worst. This is because it’s phrased as a quantitative comparison.
I propose that we rephrase it to either include a good faith qualitative comparison of languages with support versus languages without support, or we use clearer wording such as, “there is now a considerable mix of languages support the goto statement in different methods.”
Any thoughts on this? ChiXiStigma ( talk) 07:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
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Can someone please explain the goto relation to object oriented programing specifically? It seems that it is a compromise between pro and con beliefs on using goto, but that is (my) layman's conjecture. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.3.105 ( talk) 23:58, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Because of the current popularity of Java, would it be appropriate to discuss the labeled break and labeled continue statements in this article? It has always seemed to me that these constructs, though rarely used, are gotos with restrictions as to where you can "go to". -- Eraticus 23:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Does this belong here? Looks like a commercial promotion to me. Any other comments? (Personal POV: I mean apart from the bizzare idea of porting Fortran to Java without rewriting it; this is a joke, right?; the idea that adding jumps to Java would help; the idea that you would actually have something bug free at the end of it; the amazing amount of effort and hacks to get this into Java; why not leave it in fortran? (End personal POV) peterl 03:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The article is missing a section on GOTO in assembly language. In assembly (eg PIC ASM), there are no high-level constructs such as for/if-then-else/break etc. There are only: Call/Return, Goto (=Jump) and Conditional Jump (eg the pic's skipz/skipnz). Things such as if-elseif-else are built out of conditional jumps: practically every flow-control structure in assembly is a Goto. -- RichardNeill 05:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Move. Although the (Fortran) tradition is there, I don't see a compelling reason to override MOS:CAPS; the command is genericized enough in many programming languages. See also Category:Control flow.
The criticism section had been marked with NPOV. But no explanation was given. The section is well referenced, and the fact that is is criticism doesn't make it POV. Please explain if you want to add that marker back in. peterl ( talk) 04:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
It was written as an April fool's joke, it works and includes a "comefrom" statement, but there is REALLY no need for it in the language ;)
An open-source licensed project called JavaGoto. Maybe it has some usefulness in teaching (what GOTO is and why not to use it). https://github.com/footloosejava/JavaGoto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.7.38.170 ( talk) 04:22, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Since there seems to be much ado over GOTO vs GoTo, goto, gOTo, etc., it must be important, so I think there should be some mention of the COBOL form being two words. Georget99 ( talk) 20:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Why on earth are we citing Linux Torvalds as an authority on this particular aspect of computer science? I've removed an extensive verbatim quote of an email he supposedly once sent to the kerneltrap mailing list (!). -- TS 18:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
if you still insist: In 1997 he received his Master degree (Laudatur Grade) from Department of Computer Science, University of Helsinki. In 1998 he received an EFF Pioneer Award.[24] In 1999 he received honorary doctor status at Stockholm University. In 2000 he received honorary doctor status at University of Helsinki.[25] In 2000 he was awarded the Lovelace Medal.[26] (...) In 2004, he was named one of the most influential people in the world by the Time magazine article "Linus Torvalds: The Free-Software Champion" by Lawrence Lessig[28] (...) In August 2005, Torvalds received the Vollum Award from Reed College.[30] In 2006, Time Magazine—Europe Edition named him one of the revolutionary heroes of the past 60 years.[32] In 2008, he was inducted into the Hall of Fellows of the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California.[33][34] please do some research on these awards...
they aren't given to random people with no knowledge of CS, and they are given to people both widely respected, acknowledged and influential. isn't that enough for someone's opinion on the subject to be notable enough to matter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(people)
it's quite easy to prove Linus Torvalds' notability in the field of programming. developing and maintaining the world's most known free-source operating system should be enough by itself;
so please, either prove that Torvalds SHOULD'T be considered an authority when it comes to CS in his field of interest (and low-level programming is DIRECTLY related to GOTO use - PLEASE do the research on your own, because the relation it's quite obvious to anybody with a basic knowledge of assembler/C/kernel programming), or declare the dispute closed.
GOTO - isn't "break" and "continue" just an internal goto ( compiler supplies the label). Is a pointer a calculated goto ( ie GOTO variable - really old construction, apparently abandoned because it causes as much problems as pointers) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
159.105.80.141 (
talk)
13:14, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
The referenced person is clearly used as an example which is helpful. Besides without links/ references everything would have to be fully explained (Ctrl+C , Cntrl+V) on every wiki page. This point/ argument is isomorphic to the article's argument on goto's controversy, and that is quite cute.
Goto should be described as an unconditional jump. A plain goto is not a branching statement. Only if goto is preceded by an if (or similar) it works in a conditional way. (or if it's a computed goto or any of the more exotic variants) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.175.168 ( talk) 08:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the request for citations starting:
Some[which?] programming style coding standards prohibit...
Possible citations are
[1] "It is good programming style to use the break, continue, and return statement in preference to goto whenever possible."
[2] "Chapter 7: Centralized exiting of functions
Albeit deprecated by some people, the equivalent of the goto statement is used frequently by compilers..."
The python discussion about a Python goto is quite interesting
[3]
"This PEP is not a proposal to add GOTO to Python. GOTO allows a programmer to jump to an arbitrary block or line of code, and generally makes control flow more difficult to follow."
It might be helpful to rephrase the sentence:
Some programming style coding standards discourage... while some do not
ProgrammerMax ( talk) 20:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
References
Dijkstra claims that "goto considered harmful" was not the original title of his article. The title was changed by the editor, Niklaus Wirth.
Dijkstra tells the story in this video beginning at 4:22: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40CNRVHLt7A&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL7D42CB0A207D79B6#t=255s Prof. Edsger Dijkstra on "Structured Programming" at "Software Pioneers",sd&m Conference 2001, Bonn, Germany
I don't have time to transcribe the story now but it would be a good addition (and correction) to this article.
I haven't read the "considered harmful" paper in a while, but going by what Dijkstra says in the video, the paper is an analysis, not a criticism in the derogatory sense -- in which case the current wording of the wikipedia article is biased.
Ross bencina ( talk) 05:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Original title was "A Case Against the Goto Statement". You're kind of right on this one, Ross. AFAIR, it was along the lines you're talking about - the whole 'criticism' was the result of a style war that erupted *after* the article, not the article itself IMO. Still, Dijjie said in that article: "The go to statement as it stands is just too primitive, it is too much an invitation to make a mess of one's program."
It IS a negative criticism, but Dij says himself that it's his *opinion*, based on what he seen - not an arbitrary, scientific fact. And I'm with him on this one.
Further reading: Considered harmful
Vaxquis ( talk) 17:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
The section states that MISRA C Coding Standard prohibit the use of GOTO statements. This is not the case since MISRA2012:
Simzer ( talk) 15:33, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Is Apples Security failure missing in the article? :) 87.78.122.110 ( talk) 20:00, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
"An empirical study of goto in C code" (2015 paper) https://peerj.com/preprints/826v1.pdf and https://peerj.com/preprints/826v1/
"We conclude that developers limit themselves to using goto appropriately in most cases, thus suggesting that goto does not appear to be harmful in practice."
• Sbmeirow • Talk • 21:51, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
select case/etc are just computed goto - same use/results/speed. If they weren't the same programs would run really slow - half the assembly codes would be unsued. 2601:181:8000:D6D0:7855:5B43:1B2A:B0F4 ( talk) 16:23, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
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The link to this doesn't work any longer: Sexton, Alex. "The Summer of Goto | Official Home of Goto.js". Retrieved April 28, 2012. Mikael4u ( talk) 21:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
In APL there is no alternative to 'goto'-like branching, because it does not have instructions like if/else/switch. How about include a section about good branching techniques for such kind of programming languages? ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.236.47.163 ( talk) 23:07, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Here is an interesting reference (see pages 10-11): ASWIEKE.PDF — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.236.87.112 ( talk) 19:52, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
The Wheeler jump was the prototype for a subroutine jump -- i.e., save current instruction counter somewhere such that it can be used for subroutine return -- and not for a simple goto. The EDSAC already had 'goto' in the hardware: branch instructions E and G. What Wheeler devised was the coding sequences for 'save position and branch to specified location' and 'branch to saved position'. This is tantamount to inventing the closed subroutine.
The IEEE citation unfortunately described this as the 'precursor to goto' rather than 'precursor to gosub', an error that ought to be obvious since it also says 'to allow a program to pass control to a subroutine'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.20.234.238 ( talk) 21:37, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
The Bohm and Jacopini paper "Flow Diagrams, Turing Machines and Languages with Only Two Formation Rules", didn't claim, much less prove, "that the goto statement is not necessary to write programs"; the scope of the paper was limited to programs that could be expressed as flow charts. It did not cover programs with subroutines, much less goto statements that unwound the stack. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul ( talk) 16:13, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Article says "In Perl, there is a variant of the goto statement that is not a traditional GOTO statement at all. It takes a function name and transfers control by effectively substituting one function call for another (a tail call): the new function will not return to the GOTO, but instead to the place from which the original function was called."
This is absolutely a traditional GOTO; you can do exactly that with an ordinary jump instruction in machine code.
It's just not "traditional" in the narrow context of the history of a family of higher level languages that have always had a restricted form of GOTO.
Moreover, of course "the new function will not return to the GOTO"; GOTO isn't expected to return, unless it is GOSUB: a subroutine calling form of GOTO.
KazKylheku ( talk) 19:38, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
“Many languages support the goto statement, and many do not”
I feel that this statement is so vague as to be pointless at best and confusing at worst. This is because it’s phrased as a quantitative comparison.
I propose that we rephrase it to either include a good faith qualitative comparison of languages with support versus languages without support, or we use clearer wording such as, “there is now a considerable mix of languages support the goto statement in different methods.”
Any thoughts on this? ChiXiStigma ( talk) 07:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)