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This article is replete with footnotes, so I'm removing the label saying it's missing citations. If a few scattered individual statements require sourcing, these could be marked individually, or if there are broader issues of verification, some discussion would be helpful. Cynwolfe ( talk) 15:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The section which states "The phrase "and immediately" occurs nearly forty times in Mark; while in Luke, which is much longer, it is used only seven times, and in John only four times.[61] The word Greek: νομος law ([7]) is never used, while it appears 8 times in Matthew, 9 times in Luke, 15 times in John, 19 times in Acts, many times in Romans" cites Easton's Bible Dictionary and gives a link, but nowhere on that page could I find a reference to the number of times the word "immediately" is used in Mark, or the other gospels mentioned for that matter. Additionally, I'm not sure those numbers are correct, which is why I was checking the reference in the first place. For example, I counted 10 uses in Luke of the Greek words euthys or eutheos which are translated "immediately" depending on which English translation one is using. If this section is going to mention word usage, it should really reference the original language anyway. -- Aubee91 ( talk) 18:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Specifically on genre, there is a large quote from Dennis MacDonald on his fringe hypothesis on the Gospels, whereas the standard approach by guys like Graham Stanton and Richard A Burridge is totally ignored.-- Ari ( talk) 08:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm usually reluctant to apply these disputed tags, but this latest addition to the Secret Mark section is just POV baloney. Several authors have alleged that Morton Smith's homosexuality was a motive for fabricating Secret Mark. That is quite different from stating that Morton Smith himself claimed that an authentic Secret Mark portrays a homosexual Jesus. Prove it with a verifiable source including page numbers and a quotation from Morton Smith supporting your assertion here on the talk page. -- Ovadyah ( talk) 19:06, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm removing this section for a lack of reliable sources. Proper Wikiquette is to wait about a week after requesting sources, and I waited two weeks. The disputed content can come back if reliable sources are included. Cheers. -- Ovadyah ( talk) 17:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
A small group of scholars, including the German radical critical scholar Hermann Detering, [1] see a 2nd century date for Mark. These scholars make the case that the " Little Apocalypse" Mark 13:14–23 refers to the events of the Bar Kokhba Revolt of 132-135, and which they see as a much better fit to events described in this text than the First Jewish Revolt of 70. [2] See also Ten Martyrs [3].
I copied the disputed section to the talk page. I have no problem removing content for the right reasons, ie. if content is not supported by reliable secondary sources. That doesn't seem to be the case here. When there are conflicting viewpoints, articles are usually improved by including them to make the article more NPOV. In any case, there are procedures to deal with content disputes. Please follow them. -- Ovadyah ( talk) 18:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
After re-evaluating the sources, I am now in favor of deleting this sub-section. Despite my wish to maintain NPOV for the article, it seems to be based on unreliable sources or misattributions to reliable sources that don't say what is claimed. I have posted a notice on the talk page of the contributing editor to back up this content with better sources. If we don't see any progress after a week, I think it should go. Cheers. --
Ovadyah (
talk)
16:56, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
You took issue with the following ref Early Christian Writings. Please explain. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 23:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
See the latest update on Secret Mark with many published references, including two new ones, for and against authenticity
here. Cheers. --
Ovadyah (
talk)
15:54, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
The article gives the impression that Bart Erhman advocates that the Gospel of Mark has an Adoptionist christology. This is not accurate. In "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture", Ehrman argues that the Gospel of Mark was favored by some Gnostic groups because it could be used as a proof text for a "Separationist" christology. In Separationist christologies, the human Jesus is distinct from the divine Christ, which entered into him at his baptism. A Separationist christology always requires an aspect of divinity, whereas Adoptionism does not. It is also not accurate to state that the Gospel of the Hebrews had an Adoptionist christology. We know based on quotations by the Church Fathers that the GH depicted God as Jesus' father and the Holy Spirit as his real mother, so that Jesus only seemed (docetic) to be human. Interestingly, while adoptionism was condemned as a heresy by the end of the 2nd century, the GH continued to be regarded as a disputed (but not heretical) text even up to the time of Eusebius in the early 4th century. Cheers. -- Ovadyah ( talk) 17:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Help will be appreciated from those who are well versed in Gospel episodes. Please see:
The 3rd item includes a list of key episodes in the 4 Canonical Gospels. Suggestions about possible errors or omissions will be appreciated. Please leave messages on one of those 3 talk pages, and not here, in order to focus the discussion. Thank you. History2007 ( talk) 05:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
As the start of this article rightly says this is The Gospel according to Mark. Gospel comes from Godspell which is the English translation of the word ευαγγελιου. ευαγγελιου means good news, and the English translated this into Gospel since there is only the one good news of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ's news is from God. Alan347 ( talk) 15:53, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
I am trying to make some very minor changes on the issue of authorship, but keep having my changes reverted without discussion. Many (maybe or maybe not a minority though certainly not a fringe minority) scholars hold that Mark wrote his gospel, and I have sources supporting this. I am not trying to delete or minimize the point that many do not agree with this, but rather add this other widely-held view while mentioning that it is a minority view. Wikipedia policy states that non-fringe minority views should be given due weight and not ignored. I also believe blanket reverts without discussions are also against Wikipedia policy. RomanHistorian ( talk) 17:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
If Mark is seriously considered as the author, then we should be able to find mainstream, nonsectarian sources for that claim. Relying on non-mainstream, sectarian sources is bad form. I've gone back to my books and indeed some of them acknowledge that some scholars (notably Martin Hengel) consider Mark's authorship to be essentially credible. It's all complicated by the detail that there's no historical evidence that Peter ever went to Rome for Mark to record his preaching there. Leadwind ( talk) 16:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
When an editor cits a reference he gives the date of the edition he is using. Please don't change that as it will cause problems. What is appropriate is to add (First published 1881) That will deal with the issue you have raised. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
I deleted all this hard work that someone put into the lead. The problem with it is that it's original research that relies on the gospel itself as a primary source. It might seem natural to cite the gospel itself, but the problem is that we editors aren't supposed to be the ones who decide what's important about the gospel. Experts do that, and we cite them. If we editors want to say something about how Mark refers the Jesus, then we should find out what the experts say and cite them. In this particular case, Mark refers to Jesus as the "son of Mary." Why isn't that included in this list? Because an editor has decided which parts of Mark are important to summarize and which aren't. That's not our job. Cite reliable sources, not scripture.
It calls him the [[Son of Man]],<ref>{{bibleverse-nb||Mark|2:10}} (Jesus; to teachers of the law), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|2:28}} (Jesus; to Pharisees), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|8:31}} (Jesus via Mark, to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|8:38}} (Jesus; to disciples and Caesarean crowd), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|9:9,12}} (Jesus via Mark; to Peter, James, and John), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|9:31}} (Jesus; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|10:33}} (Jesus; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|10:45}} (Jesus; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|13:26}} (Jesus; to Peter, James, John, and Andrew), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:21}} (Jesus; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:41}} (Jesus; to Peter, James, and John), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:62}} (Jesus; to high priest w/ chief priests, elders, and teachers of the law)</ref> the [[Son of God]],<ref>verbatim in {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|3:11}} (evil spirits; to Jesus), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|5:7}} ("Legion" i.e. evil spirits; to Jesus), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|15:39}} (centurion at crucifixion; to undefined audience); contextually implied in {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|1:11}} (voice from heaven; to John the Baptist), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|8:38}} (Jesus as eschatology; to disciples and crowd), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|9:7}} (voice from cloud; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|12:6}} (Jesus as parable; to chief priests, scribes, and elders), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|13:32}} (Jesus as eschatology; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:61}} (Jesus; to chief priest); included in some manuscripts of {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|1:1}} (Markan author as character introduction; to audience)</ref> and the [[Messiah]] or [[Christ]].<ref>{{bibleverse-nb||Mark|1:1}} (Markan author; to audience), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|8:29}} (Peter; to Jesus), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|9:41}} (Jesus; to John), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|12:35}} (Jesus; to a large crowd), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|13:21}} (Jesus; to Peter, James, John, and Andrew (v. 33)), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:61-62}} (Jesus; to high priest), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|15:31}} (chief priests, teachers of the law; (mockingly) to each other)</ref>
Leadwind ( talk) 16:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
I've stated in the lead and in the authorship section a concise summary of the contemporary, non-Mark-author view. I primarily used a university-level textbook from 1998 by a leader in the historical Jesus field. He reviews the scholarship on every ancient source about Jesus, including all four canonical gospels. Good, scholarly information was stripped out of this page and others in defense of a minority view, and it's time to put that information back in. The majority shouldn't keep the minority from including their opinions (given due weight), and neither should the minority keep the majority from stating the majority view. This goes for all the gospel articles that recent editors have undermined with their campaign against the majority view of current scholarship. Leadwind ( talk) 17:03, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I have noticed that here and elsewhere, some editors are pushing a POV. Leadwind above is a good example. They define a set universe of "mainstream scholarship" and used that to define what the "scholarly consensus" is. No evidence is ever given that this is what the "mainstream" is, it is just assumed and requests for evidence are ignored. Not only that, but this fake-mainstream is even often described as the "consensus". This universe just so happens to include and be personified by skeptics and atheists like Bart Ehrman or the ultra-controversial Jesus Seminar. Actually Ehrman and Jesus Seminar members are often the most heavily cited sources. Any scholars who deviate from this view are labeled "fringe" and their views dismissed. Most scholars actually deviate from what is defined as "mainstream" by editors like Leadwind, but this nice little definition allows the majority to be dismissed as "fringe". Evidence that these people represent the "mainstream" is never given, editors just demand that one accepts it because "that's what everyone knows". With this, direct quoted evidence that they don't represent the mainstream is dismissed and never taken seriously. If they make claims that are well cited, these claims are deleted outright for no reason other than they don't fit in with this artificially defined universe of what is "mainstream". Wikipedia is ruled by what the majority of editors on a given article think about a topic, not what the "correct" or "mainstream" view is. These edits don't represent the "mainstream" view, but a heavily skewed POV. As such, the article is badly biased on certain points, especially authorship.
I would like some non-involved editors to take a look at these pages and the talk pages to see what they think. RomanHistorian ( talk) 20:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Leadwind has made a lot of recent edits which have pushed a major POV into this article. He has done this on Gospel of Luke, and there is a discussion under way on this. This article shouldn't be skewed by him until we resolve the issue in Gospel of Luke. RomanHistorian ( talk) 15:50, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
The Link on Content 'Good News' goes to ' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel', which really does not discuss the passage from Mark 1:14–15. I could not find a related page, and in trying to edit by clicking the 'edit' link next to the Content section, it took me to a different section, so that link is incorrect as well. I'm not familiar enough with wikipedia to make those changes. Vic smyth ( talk) 16:46, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
"However, most contemporary scholars now regard it as the earliest of the canonical gospels[1] (c 70),[2] a position known as Markan priority." which is mostly accurate; but then, a few paragraphs later, "The Gospel of Mark is the primary source of information about the ministry of Jesus" -- the idea that Mark is the original has moved from something held by 'most contemporary scholars' to a simple fact, Mark is *the* primary source. (Even the normal form of Markan priority doesn't really allow for the flat statement that Mark is THE primary source, as most such theories suggest that the other Gospels have independent traditions, e.g. the hypothetical Q document.) 165.91.166.236 ( talk) 20:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
A report from the latest Symposium on the endless controversy known as Secret Mark can be found here. Ovadyah ( talk) 15:56, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
A previous version of this article claimed that the older manuscripts of Mark ended at 16:8 with a description of the empty tomb "without further explanation."
This is misleading. Even in the seemingly truncated oldest versions of Mark, there are the verses 16:5-7, which feature the figure in white who explains that Jesus is risen and will appear again in Galilee. Thus, the empty tomb is explained even in those oldest versions, albeit briefly. I have edited the article to make the characterization more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.96.83 ( talk) 15:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
The article currently reads:
The citation number 13 asserts that the author uses multiple sources. It does not say that it follows that John Mark could not possibly be the author. I think it would be better to change it to:
what do you think? 201.253.132.107 ( talk) 15:33, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
The gospel's vocabulary embraces 1330 distinct words, of which 60 are proper names. Eighty words, (exclusive of proper names), are not found elsewhere in the New Testament. About one quarter of these are non-classical. Which version of the gospel is taken as example? -- Bojan Talk 01:08, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
According to Bill Darlison (The Gospel and the Zodiac), the Gospel of Mark is refering to the zodiac signs and represents the spiritual evolution of a human being. In the first three chapters, Jesus is baptized and begins his ministry as Aries, the spring sign, begins the year. Jesus takes on the Pharisees with vigor and courage and John the Baptist is enthusiast (all Aries qualities).
In chapter 4, the parable of the sower stress two Taurus qualities: steadfastness and stability.
In chapter 5, the cure of the demoniac man is a reference to split personalities and to Gemini. There is also two miracles in one story (Jaïros daughter). In chapter 6, Jesus is sending the apostle two by two and the hesitation of Herod to kill John is also a reference to Gemini.
In chapter 7, Jesus is making a tortuous journey, it shows a crab-like movement, a reference to the cancer and the passage of the summer solstice.
The chapter 9 shows the transfiguration and the glory of Jesus, a reference to Leo.
The Virgo sign is symbolic of harvest and rebirth and in chapter 10 Jesus say: « anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter. »
In chapter 10, Jesus speaks of two themes related to Libra: divorce and wealth. In chapter 11, the fig tree is a tree which gives fruits in September and October.
In chapter 12, the parables of the wicked husbandmen and the resurrection of the dead are a reference to Scorpio (mentioned in Luc 11:12).
In chapter 11, Jesus enters Jerusalem on a colt, a reference to Sagittarius.
In chapter 13, there is the winter, it’s a reference to Capricorn and the winter solstice.
In 14:13, Mark wrote: « a man carrying a jar of water », a reference to Aquarius.
The last chapters are a reference to Pisces, in 24:42-43, Luke wrote that Jesus ate a fish. 86.198.14.15 ( talk) 05:08, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Third para in lede currently reads:
"According to tradition and some early church writers, the author is Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the apostle Peter.[4] The gospel, however, appears to rely on several underlying sources, varying in form and in theology, and which tells against the tradition that the gospel was based on Peter's preaching.[5] Of course, the autograph does not base its content on Paul's preaching alone [6] Various elements within the gospel, including the importance of the authority of Peter and the breadth of its basic theology, suggest that the author wrote in Syria or Palestine for a non-Jewish Christian community which had earlier absorbed the influence of pre-Pauline beliefs and then developed them further independent of Paul.[7]"
" The gospel, however, appears to rely on several underlying sources, varying in form and in theology, and which tells against the tradition that the gospel was based on Peter's preaching." "sources..., form...theology..and which tells" is ungrammatical. I can't tell if it means to say the fact that the gospel appears to rely on several underlying sources tells against the tradition or that the sources, form and theology tell against the tradition.
"Of course, the autograph does not base its content on Paul's preaching alone" What? How does Paul suddenly make an appearance here? Is this a typo and "Peter" is meant? That is what I thought at first but then the next sentence starts talking about Paul again, so I am not sure. It shouldn't just introduce "Paul" into the discussion anyway without even saying who Paul is, it cannot be assumed that every reader of wikipedia is going to know already. Also I don't think it should say "autograph" as there is no autograph in existence and no one knows what it might have said, better to say "text".
"but on a compilation of eye witness accounts, known apostolic preachings, and pre-existing written records that do not exist today verifiable from 2nd century commentators and an understanding of 1st century Greco-Roman culture regarding oral tradition. Badly written and confusing but you can just about make out what it is trying to say, however there are some statements there that are too dogmatic in my opinion - Gospel of Mark may include some eye witness accounts although that cannot be proven. I don't think "pre-existing written accounts that do not exist today" are verifiable, that is too strong a word. "Confirmed" might be better. No one is going to come to a better "understanding of 1st century Greco-Roman culture regarding oral tradition" by reading this article, that's for sure, since this is the only appearance of "1st century Greco-Roman culture" in the article. I thought the lede was supposed to summarise the contents of the rest of the article, that certainly does not.
"Various elements within the gospel, including the importance of the authority of Peter and the breadth of its basic theology, suggest that the author wrote in Syria or Palestine for a non-Jewish Christian community which had earlier absorbed the influence of pre-Pauline beliefs and then developed them further independent of Paul." This comes close to being gobbledegook. "Breadth of its basic theology" is pretty meaningless without further explication. Then we are confronted with the mention of the still unexplained person, "Paul",but in the form of "pre-Pauline beliefs". Does that mean beliefs that are the same as Paul's only the author of Mark got there first, or beliefs that come before Paul and are therefore different from Paul's beliefs? What are these beliefs that were developed further "independent of Paul"? The only mention in the article of any "Pauline beliefs" is "Joel Marcus notes that the other Evangelists "attenuate" Mark's emphasis on Jesus' suffering and death, and sees Mark as more strongly influenced than they are by Paul's "theology of the cross" in the "Meaning of Jesus' death" section.
That paragraph is very badly written, quite atrocious in fact. I would try to fix it but I honestly cannot make out what it is trying to say. Smeat75 ( talk) 01:13, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
In the "Composition and Setting" section, we read "The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author.[2] A tradition evident in the 2nd century ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist (also known as John Mark), the companion of Peter,[8] on whose memories it is supposedly based." OK. So far, so good. Two sentences later, in the "Authorship and sources" section, we are confronted with "According to Papias of Hierapolis, writing in the early 2nd century, this gospel was by John Mark, the companion of Saint Paul in Rome, who "had one purpose only – to leave out nothing that he had heard, and to make no misstatement about it." So this "John Mark" was the "companion of Peter" and "the companion of Paul in Rome"? No explanation of how or why he was such an in demand companion to leading early apostles. And the full quote from Papias is ""Mark, having become Peter's interpreter, wrote down accurately whatever he remembered of what was said or done by the Lord, however not in order." Peter, not Paul, as the article would lead one to think. Was "John Mark" a "companion of Saint Paul in Rome?" That's the first I've heard of it. I think whoever wrote this is confused between Peter and Paul, and whoever reads it is likely to become confused also. Gospel of Mark is a very important part of the New Testament, it deserves a better article than this one. Smeat75 ( talk) 01:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
According to WP:LEAD,"The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." This article's lead does not follow those guidelines. The lead should refer to the accepted theory that Mark was used as a source of both Matthew and Luke and briefly discuss the very "prominent controversy" surrounding the end of the Gospel. It should not refer to "an understanding of 1st century Greco-Roman culture regarding oral tradition" or " pre-Pauline beliefs" because those concepts are not covered in the remainder of the article. The guidelines also state "the lead should be written in a clear, accessible style" which the last paragraph is not. Once again I will leave this for a day or so to see if anyone comments before I try to change anything. Smeat75 ( talk) 18:22, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
It is said in 1 Peter 5:13 that Mark is his son. Does that qualify for an edit where it presently states, "Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the apostle Peter" ? Twillisjr ( talk) 15:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
The only source given for the section "Homeric tradition hypothesis" is [ [2]], which is from a non-academic website run by blogger Richard Carrier. Neither the website "Secular Web" nor Richard Carrier, who as the WP article about him says "is an American blogger" are reliable sources, please look at WP:USERG and you will see "Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, personal pages on social networking sites, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable. This includes any website whose content is largely user-generated". WP:RS says "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" which the source cited is not. If there were an academic review of "Dennis MacDonald's 'The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark" that could be quoted in the article somewhere, but a review on a self-published blog by a non-academic writer is not WP:RS. Smeat75 ( talk) 18:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Name | Base Name | Modifier | Cognomen |
---|---|---|---|
Simon Peter | Simōni Σίμωνι |
Simōni Petron Σίμωνι Πέτρον | |
Jacob (son of Zebedee) | Iakōbon Ἰάκωβον |
ton tou Zebedaiou τὸν τοῦ Ζεβεδαίου |
Iakōbon Boanērges Ἰάκωβον Βοανηργές |
John (brother of James) | Iōannēn Ἰωάννην |
ton adelphon tou Iakōbou τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ Ἰακώβου |
Iōannēn Boanērges Ἰωάννην Βοανηργές |
Andrew | Andrean Ἀνδρέαν |
||
Philip | Philippon Φίλιππον |
||
Bartholomew | Bartholomaion Βαρθολομαῖον |
||
Matthew | Maththaion Μαθθαῖον |
||
Thomas | Thōman Θωμᾶν |
||
Jacob (son of Alphaeus) | Iakōbon Ἰάκωβον |
ton tou Halphaiou τὸν τοῦ Ἁλφαίου |
|
Thaddeus | Thaddaion Θαδδαῖον |
||
Simon (the Cananean) | Simōna Σίμωνα |
ton Kananaion τὸν Καναναῖον |
|
Judas Iscariot | Ioudan Ἰούδαν |
Iskariōth Ἰσκαριώθ |
I think if anything a link is all that's appropriate. Jerod Lycett ( talk) 02:25, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
In Mark, the Jewish leaders , and not the Jewish people, are the opponents of Jesus.
Malbon, Elizabeth Struthers (2000).
In the Company of Jesus: Characters in Mark's Gospel. Westminster John Knox Press. p. 195.
ISBN
978-0-664-22255-0.
|
|
A new proof means all before is moot.
So lets take this one step by step.
I will try to guess you response for points 1 & 2.
The reasoning of why the proposed content should be included in the article is derived from the following 3 points;
Ipso facto ~The proposed content should be included~
OK, now your on your own, you have to make a new objection to my point.2 that is not guilty of "spurious reasoning", or else declare my argument illegitimate and let the jury of public opinion decide or you could say I concur or I concede point.2 and move on to the next point. 74.136.159.171 ( talk) 10:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
The proposed list, seems not only to be pointless, but to be advocating a proponents/opponents logic, that seems simplistic and uninformative. Articles are written in sentences and paragraphs, not everythin is suited to a list or a chart. Pincrete ( talk) 14:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should a list of the Greek names of the twelve Apostles from the work, "Gospel of Mark" Mk 3:13–19 section 3:13-19 be included in this article ? 03:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Under "composition", I changed "most modern scholars" to "some modern scholars", as the veracity of "most" is subjective at best. If a definitive study of modern scholarship proves a prevailing trend towards the rejection Mark the Evangelist's authorship, then my change should be reversed and an appropriate citation should be added.
Jscheel ( talk) 22:36, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, perhaps I do not clearly understand WP:RS/AC, Tgeorgescu. The referenced work does nothing to prove its claim of academic consensus and therefore seems to be subjective. Because it is a published work, does referencing its claim fulfill the guidelines for stating academic consensus? Jscheel ( talk) 06:46, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I would like to reopen this discussion on the side of at least presenting some more modern scholarship. The paper in question is NOT "high scholarship," it is a textbook published in 2002. Within the WP:RS/AC there are two sections that this publication fails to uphold: though a minor point, because it is a (1) textbook, it is a tertiary source. I am bringing some personal knowledge into the discussion here, but within NT Studies, textbooks are bottom of the barrel—little is cutting edge, most is a compilation, most people in the business of Bib Scholarship publish a book like this for money and it wouldn't be considered "scholarship" at all. Furthermore, arguments around gospel origins, genre, form criticism, and motifs have very short half-life. Therefore, a textbook (not original scholarship, surface deep compilation) written thirteen years ago (in a field with quick half-life) is not a good source. Second, (2) "Reliable sources must be strong enough to support the claim. A lightweight source may sometimes be acceptable for a lightweight claim, but never for an extraordinary claim." If one does not perceive source gospel sources as an extraordinary claims than they have missed the discussion. Synoptic source discussion is one of the deepest and most fought over discussions within Biblical Criticism. With a pluthera of resources being poured into such a field, the time span a theory holds together is short. I am not asking for us to use unproven material for the sake of being cutting edge. But I suppose that a claim such as this requires the source to fulfill at least a few criteria: 1) Monograph or Article focused level research. A monograph or article that isn't arguing this as a thesis simply will not do. This is an import claim within the discipline and deserves "high scholarship" on a subject. 2) Modern, with time for reviews and interaction (especially if the source is a monograph). We should look for a modern and time proven monograph that has had a second wave of high-middle level of scholarship that has interacted with it positively. Positive reviews bolster the argument, but simply are not enough. Often reviews are written before release and do not include the entire monograph. 3) Reputable Publication. All articles within biblical scholarship should be published through SBL or be found within an Edited Volume by a Senior Scholar. All Monographs and Editorials should be published by established and reputable publishers with heavy peer review process. Examples include but are not limited to: Brill, T&T Clark, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Eerdmans, or Zondervan. Translated pieces ought to be judged by their original language's publishers, however, 90% of good scholarship published by good publishers in the 20th century in German is published by good publishers today. Exceptions exist but are easily deciphered and dealt with as they appear (EX:New Testament Theology-Rudolf Bultman-E.T. Baylor University Press)(This isn't modern scholarship so using this specific piece would require a more thorough investigation into those working on it).
My Suggestion: "but most modern scholars do not accept Papias' claim." to "though most modern scholars have not accepted Papias' claim since 1983 [cit:Antioch and Rome by Raymond E Brown; John P Meier], Richard Bauckham's Jesus and the Eyewitness has recently given Papias' theory modern credibility."
This edit provides a reputable anti-Papian view of Petrine origins to Mark, while showing the most modern consensus.
Applying My Criteria to My Source: Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony, (Grand Rapids, Mich: William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co, 2006). 1) The Monograph is focused upon the source of Mark, Papias' claims, and Petrine origins. Perhaps the chapters that focus in on the argument might be more appropriate, but it is passim therefore a full book citation is the most pragmatic approach. 2) The Monograph is at the prime of its existence. Two scholarly responses: (1) Park, Yoon-Man. Mark's Memory Resources and the Controversy Stories (Mark 2:1-3:6) An Application of the Frame Theory of Cognitive Science to the Markan Oral-Aural Narrative. (Leiden: Brill, 2010). A positive response. Divulges into the ancient practice of eyewitness as sources for historians and provides suitable socio-historical backgrounds for the practice. (2) REDMAN, JUDITH C. S. How Accurate Are Eyewitnesses? Bauckham and the Eyewitnesses in the Light of Psychological Research JBL. http://www.jstor.org/stable/27821012. Unfavorable response. Questions the accuracy of cognitive recall of an eyewitness. However, this paper does not hurt Papias' claim. It might make an eyewitness unreliable, but it doesn't seek to overthrow Papias. It would just argue Peter is unreliable. (I think the piece has some solid points to make but is overall a bit poor, but that is just me).
Reviews: Generally Positive- Marius Nel- http://www.jstor.org/stable/43049260 Mixed/Slightly Positive (probably the best review out there for questioning Bauckham's Name Usage Theories and Petrine Material Inclusio, still doesn't discredit Papias)- Dean Bechard- http://www.jstor.org/stable/42614886 Generally Positive (sometimes unclear)- Thomas A. Wayment http://www.jstor.org/stable/43044700
3)Published by Eerdmans
I will leave this discussion up for approx. a week to allow for people to discuss and leave feedback, then we can make the edit.
BTS.ACU.MCM ( talk) 13:39, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Surely devoting the vast bulk of a very brief discussion of date to the tiny minority view of Crossley is inappropriate. This might just qualify for a footnote, but does not belong to the main text. On a related matter, 65-75 is a more appropriate date range when it comes to reflecting scholarly opinion. -- Sineaste ( talk) 13:22, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
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I have merely quoted Burkett as he himself states it in the work cited i.e. not most "modern scholars," but, "most critical scholars...." Although I would note that Burkett himself makes no attempt to list who these critical scholars are which is sloppy at best. In light of this I have also provided, quite legitimately, a moderate alternative opinion from Drane (a respected biblical scholar with one of the best selling books on biblical scholarship). Drane's logic is sound, and I believe in the interests of honesty, accuracy and balance the edits should remain.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Busynotrushed ( talk • contribs)
Verifiable information should not be removed. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:28, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
(2) Unlike Matthew and Luke, Mark does not present Jesus as the offspring of a virgin mother and a divine Father. As far as we know from Mark, Jesus was a normal human being with a birth like that of everyone else.
— Burkett (2002: 158)
This is what I mean by verifiable information. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:35, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
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"The Church has consequently derived its view of Jesus primarily from Matthew, secondarily from John, and only distantly from Mark." This is not supported by the reference at the end of the paragraph, and sounds like an idea someone thought up. As does much of the article. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 17:10, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Last paragraph of this section is wrong, as this Wikipedia entry from Sayings of Jesus on the cross explains:
Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" It is the only saying that appears in more than one Gospel,[13] and is a quote from Psalms 22:2. This saying is taken by some as an abandonment of the Son by the Father. Other theologians understand the cry as that of one who was truly human and who felt forsaken. Put to death by his foes, very largely deserted by his friends, he may have felt also deserted by God.[20]
Others point to this as the first words of Psalm 22 and suggest that Jesus recited these words, perhaps even the whole psalm, "that he might show himself to be the very Being to whom the words refer; so that the Jewish scribes and people might examine and see the cause why he would not descend from the cross; namely, because this very psalm showed that it was appointed that he should suffer these things."[21]
Theologian Frank Stagg points to what he calls "a mystery of Jesus' incarnation: "...he who died at Golgotha (Calvary) is one with the Father, that God was in Christ, and that at the same time he cried out to the Father".[22]
In Aramaic, the phrase was/is rendered, "אלי אלי למה סואחטאני".[citation needed][dubious – discuss] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.2.143 ( talk) 23:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
This article is replete with footnotes, so I'm removing the label saying it's missing citations. If a few scattered individual statements require sourcing, these could be marked individually, or if there are broader issues of verification, some discussion would be helpful. Cynwolfe ( talk) 15:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The section which states "The phrase "and immediately" occurs nearly forty times in Mark; while in Luke, which is much longer, it is used only seven times, and in John only four times.[61] The word Greek: νομος law ([7]) is never used, while it appears 8 times in Matthew, 9 times in Luke, 15 times in John, 19 times in Acts, many times in Romans" cites Easton's Bible Dictionary and gives a link, but nowhere on that page could I find a reference to the number of times the word "immediately" is used in Mark, or the other gospels mentioned for that matter. Additionally, I'm not sure those numbers are correct, which is why I was checking the reference in the first place. For example, I counted 10 uses in Luke of the Greek words euthys or eutheos which are translated "immediately" depending on which English translation one is using. If this section is going to mention word usage, it should really reference the original language anyway. -- Aubee91 ( talk) 18:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Specifically on genre, there is a large quote from Dennis MacDonald on his fringe hypothesis on the Gospels, whereas the standard approach by guys like Graham Stanton and Richard A Burridge is totally ignored.-- Ari ( talk) 08:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm usually reluctant to apply these disputed tags, but this latest addition to the Secret Mark section is just POV baloney. Several authors have alleged that Morton Smith's homosexuality was a motive for fabricating Secret Mark. That is quite different from stating that Morton Smith himself claimed that an authentic Secret Mark portrays a homosexual Jesus. Prove it with a verifiable source including page numbers and a quotation from Morton Smith supporting your assertion here on the talk page. -- Ovadyah ( talk) 19:06, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm removing this section for a lack of reliable sources. Proper Wikiquette is to wait about a week after requesting sources, and I waited two weeks. The disputed content can come back if reliable sources are included. Cheers. -- Ovadyah ( talk) 17:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
A small group of scholars, including the German radical critical scholar Hermann Detering, [1] see a 2nd century date for Mark. These scholars make the case that the " Little Apocalypse" Mark 13:14–23 refers to the events of the Bar Kokhba Revolt of 132-135, and which they see as a much better fit to events described in this text than the First Jewish Revolt of 70. [2] See also Ten Martyrs [3].
I copied the disputed section to the talk page. I have no problem removing content for the right reasons, ie. if content is not supported by reliable secondary sources. That doesn't seem to be the case here. When there are conflicting viewpoints, articles are usually improved by including them to make the article more NPOV. In any case, there are procedures to deal with content disputes. Please follow them. -- Ovadyah ( talk) 18:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
After re-evaluating the sources, I am now in favor of deleting this sub-section. Despite my wish to maintain NPOV for the article, it seems to be based on unreliable sources or misattributions to reliable sources that don't say what is claimed. I have posted a notice on the talk page of the contributing editor to back up this content with better sources. If we don't see any progress after a week, I think it should go. Cheers. --
Ovadyah (
talk)
16:56, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
You took issue with the following ref Early Christian Writings. Please explain. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 23:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
See the latest update on Secret Mark with many published references, including two new ones, for and against authenticity
here. Cheers. --
Ovadyah (
talk)
15:54, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
The article gives the impression that Bart Erhman advocates that the Gospel of Mark has an Adoptionist christology. This is not accurate. In "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture", Ehrman argues that the Gospel of Mark was favored by some Gnostic groups because it could be used as a proof text for a "Separationist" christology. In Separationist christologies, the human Jesus is distinct from the divine Christ, which entered into him at his baptism. A Separationist christology always requires an aspect of divinity, whereas Adoptionism does not. It is also not accurate to state that the Gospel of the Hebrews had an Adoptionist christology. We know based on quotations by the Church Fathers that the GH depicted God as Jesus' father and the Holy Spirit as his real mother, so that Jesus only seemed (docetic) to be human. Interestingly, while adoptionism was condemned as a heresy by the end of the 2nd century, the GH continued to be regarded as a disputed (but not heretical) text even up to the time of Eusebius in the early 4th century. Cheers. -- Ovadyah ( talk) 17:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Help will be appreciated from those who are well versed in Gospel episodes. Please see:
The 3rd item includes a list of key episodes in the 4 Canonical Gospels. Suggestions about possible errors or omissions will be appreciated. Please leave messages on one of those 3 talk pages, and not here, in order to focus the discussion. Thank you. History2007 ( talk) 05:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
As the start of this article rightly says this is The Gospel according to Mark. Gospel comes from Godspell which is the English translation of the word ευαγγελιου. ευαγγελιου means good news, and the English translated this into Gospel since there is only the one good news of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ's news is from God. Alan347 ( talk) 15:53, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
I am trying to make some very minor changes on the issue of authorship, but keep having my changes reverted without discussion. Many (maybe or maybe not a minority though certainly not a fringe minority) scholars hold that Mark wrote his gospel, and I have sources supporting this. I am not trying to delete or minimize the point that many do not agree with this, but rather add this other widely-held view while mentioning that it is a minority view. Wikipedia policy states that non-fringe minority views should be given due weight and not ignored. I also believe blanket reverts without discussions are also against Wikipedia policy. RomanHistorian ( talk) 17:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
If Mark is seriously considered as the author, then we should be able to find mainstream, nonsectarian sources for that claim. Relying on non-mainstream, sectarian sources is bad form. I've gone back to my books and indeed some of them acknowledge that some scholars (notably Martin Hengel) consider Mark's authorship to be essentially credible. It's all complicated by the detail that there's no historical evidence that Peter ever went to Rome for Mark to record his preaching there. Leadwind ( talk) 16:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
When an editor cits a reference he gives the date of the edition he is using. Please don't change that as it will cause problems. What is appropriate is to add (First published 1881) That will deal with the issue you have raised. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
I deleted all this hard work that someone put into the lead. The problem with it is that it's original research that relies on the gospel itself as a primary source. It might seem natural to cite the gospel itself, but the problem is that we editors aren't supposed to be the ones who decide what's important about the gospel. Experts do that, and we cite them. If we editors want to say something about how Mark refers the Jesus, then we should find out what the experts say and cite them. In this particular case, Mark refers to Jesus as the "son of Mary." Why isn't that included in this list? Because an editor has decided which parts of Mark are important to summarize and which aren't. That's not our job. Cite reliable sources, not scripture.
It calls him the [[Son of Man]],<ref>{{bibleverse-nb||Mark|2:10}} (Jesus; to teachers of the law), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|2:28}} (Jesus; to Pharisees), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|8:31}} (Jesus via Mark, to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|8:38}} (Jesus; to disciples and Caesarean crowd), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|9:9,12}} (Jesus via Mark; to Peter, James, and John), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|9:31}} (Jesus; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|10:33}} (Jesus; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|10:45}} (Jesus; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|13:26}} (Jesus; to Peter, James, John, and Andrew), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:21}} (Jesus; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:41}} (Jesus; to Peter, James, and John), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:62}} (Jesus; to high priest w/ chief priests, elders, and teachers of the law)</ref> the [[Son of God]],<ref>verbatim in {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|3:11}} (evil spirits; to Jesus), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|5:7}} ("Legion" i.e. evil spirits; to Jesus), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|15:39}} (centurion at crucifixion; to undefined audience); contextually implied in {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|1:11}} (voice from heaven; to John the Baptist), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|8:38}} (Jesus as eschatology; to disciples and crowd), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|9:7}} (voice from cloud; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|12:6}} (Jesus as parable; to chief priests, scribes, and elders), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|13:32}} (Jesus as eschatology; to disciples), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:61}} (Jesus; to chief priest); included in some manuscripts of {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|1:1}} (Markan author as character introduction; to audience)</ref> and the [[Messiah]] or [[Christ]].<ref>{{bibleverse-nb||Mark|1:1}} (Markan author; to audience), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|8:29}} (Peter; to Jesus), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|9:41}} (Jesus; to John), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|12:35}} (Jesus; to a large crowd), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|13:21}} (Jesus; to Peter, James, John, and Andrew (v. 33)), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|14:61-62}} (Jesus; to high priest), {{bibleverse-nb||Mark|15:31}} (chief priests, teachers of the law; (mockingly) to each other)</ref>
Leadwind ( talk) 16:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
I've stated in the lead and in the authorship section a concise summary of the contemporary, non-Mark-author view. I primarily used a university-level textbook from 1998 by a leader in the historical Jesus field. He reviews the scholarship on every ancient source about Jesus, including all four canonical gospels. Good, scholarly information was stripped out of this page and others in defense of a minority view, and it's time to put that information back in. The majority shouldn't keep the minority from including their opinions (given due weight), and neither should the minority keep the majority from stating the majority view. This goes for all the gospel articles that recent editors have undermined with their campaign against the majority view of current scholarship. Leadwind ( talk) 17:03, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I have noticed that here and elsewhere, some editors are pushing a POV. Leadwind above is a good example. They define a set universe of "mainstream scholarship" and used that to define what the "scholarly consensus" is. No evidence is ever given that this is what the "mainstream" is, it is just assumed and requests for evidence are ignored. Not only that, but this fake-mainstream is even often described as the "consensus". This universe just so happens to include and be personified by skeptics and atheists like Bart Ehrman or the ultra-controversial Jesus Seminar. Actually Ehrman and Jesus Seminar members are often the most heavily cited sources. Any scholars who deviate from this view are labeled "fringe" and their views dismissed. Most scholars actually deviate from what is defined as "mainstream" by editors like Leadwind, but this nice little definition allows the majority to be dismissed as "fringe". Evidence that these people represent the "mainstream" is never given, editors just demand that one accepts it because "that's what everyone knows". With this, direct quoted evidence that they don't represent the mainstream is dismissed and never taken seriously. If they make claims that are well cited, these claims are deleted outright for no reason other than they don't fit in with this artificially defined universe of what is "mainstream". Wikipedia is ruled by what the majority of editors on a given article think about a topic, not what the "correct" or "mainstream" view is. These edits don't represent the "mainstream" view, but a heavily skewed POV. As such, the article is badly biased on certain points, especially authorship.
I would like some non-involved editors to take a look at these pages and the talk pages to see what they think. RomanHistorian ( talk) 20:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Leadwind has made a lot of recent edits which have pushed a major POV into this article. He has done this on Gospel of Luke, and there is a discussion under way on this. This article shouldn't be skewed by him until we resolve the issue in Gospel of Luke. RomanHistorian ( talk) 15:50, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
The Link on Content 'Good News' goes to ' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel', which really does not discuss the passage from Mark 1:14–15. I could not find a related page, and in trying to edit by clicking the 'edit' link next to the Content section, it took me to a different section, so that link is incorrect as well. I'm not familiar enough with wikipedia to make those changes. Vic smyth ( talk) 16:46, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
"However, most contemporary scholars now regard it as the earliest of the canonical gospels[1] (c 70),[2] a position known as Markan priority." which is mostly accurate; but then, a few paragraphs later, "The Gospel of Mark is the primary source of information about the ministry of Jesus" -- the idea that Mark is the original has moved from something held by 'most contemporary scholars' to a simple fact, Mark is *the* primary source. (Even the normal form of Markan priority doesn't really allow for the flat statement that Mark is THE primary source, as most such theories suggest that the other Gospels have independent traditions, e.g. the hypothetical Q document.) 165.91.166.236 ( talk) 20:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
A report from the latest Symposium on the endless controversy known as Secret Mark can be found here. Ovadyah ( talk) 15:56, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
A previous version of this article claimed that the older manuscripts of Mark ended at 16:8 with a description of the empty tomb "without further explanation."
This is misleading. Even in the seemingly truncated oldest versions of Mark, there are the verses 16:5-7, which feature the figure in white who explains that Jesus is risen and will appear again in Galilee. Thus, the empty tomb is explained even in those oldest versions, albeit briefly. I have edited the article to make the characterization more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.96.83 ( talk) 15:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
The article currently reads:
The citation number 13 asserts that the author uses multiple sources. It does not say that it follows that John Mark could not possibly be the author. I think it would be better to change it to:
what do you think? 201.253.132.107 ( talk) 15:33, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
The gospel's vocabulary embraces 1330 distinct words, of which 60 are proper names. Eighty words, (exclusive of proper names), are not found elsewhere in the New Testament. About one quarter of these are non-classical. Which version of the gospel is taken as example? -- Bojan Talk 01:08, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
According to Bill Darlison (The Gospel and the Zodiac), the Gospel of Mark is refering to the zodiac signs and represents the spiritual evolution of a human being. In the first three chapters, Jesus is baptized and begins his ministry as Aries, the spring sign, begins the year. Jesus takes on the Pharisees with vigor and courage and John the Baptist is enthusiast (all Aries qualities).
In chapter 4, the parable of the sower stress two Taurus qualities: steadfastness and stability.
In chapter 5, the cure of the demoniac man is a reference to split personalities and to Gemini. There is also two miracles in one story (Jaïros daughter). In chapter 6, Jesus is sending the apostle two by two and the hesitation of Herod to kill John is also a reference to Gemini.
In chapter 7, Jesus is making a tortuous journey, it shows a crab-like movement, a reference to the cancer and the passage of the summer solstice.
The chapter 9 shows the transfiguration and the glory of Jesus, a reference to Leo.
The Virgo sign is symbolic of harvest and rebirth and in chapter 10 Jesus say: « anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter. »
In chapter 10, Jesus speaks of two themes related to Libra: divorce and wealth. In chapter 11, the fig tree is a tree which gives fruits in September and October.
In chapter 12, the parables of the wicked husbandmen and the resurrection of the dead are a reference to Scorpio (mentioned in Luc 11:12).
In chapter 11, Jesus enters Jerusalem on a colt, a reference to Sagittarius.
In chapter 13, there is the winter, it’s a reference to Capricorn and the winter solstice.
In 14:13, Mark wrote: « a man carrying a jar of water », a reference to Aquarius.
The last chapters are a reference to Pisces, in 24:42-43, Luke wrote that Jesus ate a fish. 86.198.14.15 ( talk) 05:08, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Third para in lede currently reads:
"According to tradition and some early church writers, the author is Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the apostle Peter.[4] The gospel, however, appears to rely on several underlying sources, varying in form and in theology, and which tells against the tradition that the gospel was based on Peter's preaching.[5] Of course, the autograph does not base its content on Paul's preaching alone [6] Various elements within the gospel, including the importance of the authority of Peter and the breadth of its basic theology, suggest that the author wrote in Syria or Palestine for a non-Jewish Christian community which had earlier absorbed the influence of pre-Pauline beliefs and then developed them further independent of Paul.[7]"
" The gospel, however, appears to rely on several underlying sources, varying in form and in theology, and which tells against the tradition that the gospel was based on Peter's preaching." "sources..., form...theology..and which tells" is ungrammatical. I can't tell if it means to say the fact that the gospel appears to rely on several underlying sources tells against the tradition or that the sources, form and theology tell against the tradition.
"Of course, the autograph does not base its content on Paul's preaching alone" What? How does Paul suddenly make an appearance here? Is this a typo and "Peter" is meant? That is what I thought at first but then the next sentence starts talking about Paul again, so I am not sure. It shouldn't just introduce "Paul" into the discussion anyway without even saying who Paul is, it cannot be assumed that every reader of wikipedia is going to know already. Also I don't think it should say "autograph" as there is no autograph in existence and no one knows what it might have said, better to say "text".
"but on a compilation of eye witness accounts, known apostolic preachings, and pre-existing written records that do not exist today verifiable from 2nd century commentators and an understanding of 1st century Greco-Roman culture regarding oral tradition. Badly written and confusing but you can just about make out what it is trying to say, however there are some statements there that are too dogmatic in my opinion - Gospel of Mark may include some eye witness accounts although that cannot be proven. I don't think "pre-existing written accounts that do not exist today" are verifiable, that is too strong a word. "Confirmed" might be better. No one is going to come to a better "understanding of 1st century Greco-Roman culture regarding oral tradition" by reading this article, that's for sure, since this is the only appearance of "1st century Greco-Roman culture" in the article. I thought the lede was supposed to summarise the contents of the rest of the article, that certainly does not.
"Various elements within the gospel, including the importance of the authority of Peter and the breadth of its basic theology, suggest that the author wrote in Syria or Palestine for a non-Jewish Christian community which had earlier absorbed the influence of pre-Pauline beliefs and then developed them further independent of Paul." This comes close to being gobbledegook. "Breadth of its basic theology" is pretty meaningless without further explication. Then we are confronted with the mention of the still unexplained person, "Paul",but in the form of "pre-Pauline beliefs". Does that mean beliefs that are the same as Paul's only the author of Mark got there first, or beliefs that come before Paul and are therefore different from Paul's beliefs? What are these beliefs that were developed further "independent of Paul"? The only mention in the article of any "Pauline beliefs" is "Joel Marcus notes that the other Evangelists "attenuate" Mark's emphasis on Jesus' suffering and death, and sees Mark as more strongly influenced than they are by Paul's "theology of the cross" in the "Meaning of Jesus' death" section.
That paragraph is very badly written, quite atrocious in fact. I would try to fix it but I honestly cannot make out what it is trying to say. Smeat75 ( talk) 01:13, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
In the "Composition and Setting" section, we read "The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author.[2] A tradition evident in the 2nd century ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist (also known as John Mark), the companion of Peter,[8] on whose memories it is supposedly based." OK. So far, so good. Two sentences later, in the "Authorship and sources" section, we are confronted with "According to Papias of Hierapolis, writing in the early 2nd century, this gospel was by John Mark, the companion of Saint Paul in Rome, who "had one purpose only – to leave out nothing that he had heard, and to make no misstatement about it." So this "John Mark" was the "companion of Peter" and "the companion of Paul in Rome"? No explanation of how or why he was such an in demand companion to leading early apostles. And the full quote from Papias is ""Mark, having become Peter's interpreter, wrote down accurately whatever he remembered of what was said or done by the Lord, however not in order." Peter, not Paul, as the article would lead one to think. Was "John Mark" a "companion of Saint Paul in Rome?" That's the first I've heard of it. I think whoever wrote this is confused between Peter and Paul, and whoever reads it is likely to become confused also. Gospel of Mark is a very important part of the New Testament, it deserves a better article than this one. Smeat75 ( talk) 01:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
According to WP:LEAD,"The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." This article's lead does not follow those guidelines. The lead should refer to the accepted theory that Mark was used as a source of both Matthew and Luke and briefly discuss the very "prominent controversy" surrounding the end of the Gospel. It should not refer to "an understanding of 1st century Greco-Roman culture regarding oral tradition" or " pre-Pauline beliefs" because those concepts are not covered in the remainder of the article. The guidelines also state "the lead should be written in a clear, accessible style" which the last paragraph is not. Once again I will leave this for a day or so to see if anyone comments before I try to change anything. Smeat75 ( talk) 18:22, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
It is said in 1 Peter 5:13 that Mark is his son. Does that qualify for an edit where it presently states, "Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the apostle Peter" ? Twillisjr ( talk) 15:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
The only source given for the section "Homeric tradition hypothesis" is [ [2]], which is from a non-academic website run by blogger Richard Carrier. Neither the website "Secular Web" nor Richard Carrier, who as the WP article about him says "is an American blogger" are reliable sources, please look at WP:USERG and you will see "Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, personal pages on social networking sites, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable. This includes any website whose content is largely user-generated". WP:RS says "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" which the source cited is not. If there were an academic review of "Dennis MacDonald's 'The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark" that could be quoted in the article somewhere, but a review on a self-published blog by a non-academic writer is not WP:RS. Smeat75 ( talk) 18:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Name | Base Name | Modifier | Cognomen |
---|---|---|---|
Simon Peter | Simōni Σίμωνι |
Simōni Petron Σίμωνι Πέτρον | |
Jacob (son of Zebedee) | Iakōbon Ἰάκωβον |
ton tou Zebedaiou τὸν τοῦ Ζεβεδαίου |
Iakōbon Boanērges Ἰάκωβον Βοανηργές |
John (brother of James) | Iōannēn Ἰωάννην |
ton adelphon tou Iakōbou τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ Ἰακώβου |
Iōannēn Boanērges Ἰωάννην Βοανηργές |
Andrew | Andrean Ἀνδρέαν |
||
Philip | Philippon Φίλιππον |
||
Bartholomew | Bartholomaion Βαρθολομαῖον |
||
Matthew | Maththaion Μαθθαῖον |
||
Thomas | Thōman Θωμᾶν |
||
Jacob (son of Alphaeus) | Iakōbon Ἰάκωβον |
ton tou Halphaiou τὸν τοῦ Ἁλφαίου |
|
Thaddeus | Thaddaion Θαδδαῖον |
||
Simon (the Cananean) | Simōna Σίμωνα |
ton Kananaion τὸν Καναναῖον |
|
Judas Iscariot | Ioudan Ἰούδαν |
Iskariōth Ἰσκαριώθ |
I think if anything a link is all that's appropriate. Jerod Lycett ( talk) 02:25, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
In Mark, the Jewish leaders , and not the Jewish people, are the opponents of Jesus.
Malbon, Elizabeth Struthers (2000).
In the Company of Jesus: Characters in Mark's Gospel. Westminster John Knox Press. p. 195.
ISBN
978-0-664-22255-0.
|
|
A new proof means all before is moot.
So lets take this one step by step.
I will try to guess you response for points 1 & 2.
The reasoning of why the proposed content should be included in the article is derived from the following 3 points;
Ipso facto ~The proposed content should be included~
OK, now your on your own, you have to make a new objection to my point.2 that is not guilty of "spurious reasoning", or else declare my argument illegitimate and let the jury of public opinion decide or you could say I concur or I concede point.2 and move on to the next point. 74.136.159.171 ( talk) 10:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
The proposed list, seems not only to be pointless, but to be advocating a proponents/opponents logic, that seems simplistic and uninformative. Articles are written in sentences and paragraphs, not everythin is suited to a list or a chart. Pincrete ( talk) 14:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should a list of the Greek names of the twelve Apostles from the work, "Gospel of Mark" Mk 3:13–19 section 3:13-19 be included in this article ? 03:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Under "composition", I changed "most modern scholars" to "some modern scholars", as the veracity of "most" is subjective at best. If a definitive study of modern scholarship proves a prevailing trend towards the rejection Mark the Evangelist's authorship, then my change should be reversed and an appropriate citation should be added.
Jscheel ( talk) 22:36, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, perhaps I do not clearly understand WP:RS/AC, Tgeorgescu. The referenced work does nothing to prove its claim of academic consensus and therefore seems to be subjective. Because it is a published work, does referencing its claim fulfill the guidelines for stating academic consensus? Jscheel ( talk) 06:46, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I would like to reopen this discussion on the side of at least presenting some more modern scholarship. The paper in question is NOT "high scholarship," it is a textbook published in 2002. Within the WP:RS/AC there are two sections that this publication fails to uphold: though a minor point, because it is a (1) textbook, it is a tertiary source. I am bringing some personal knowledge into the discussion here, but within NT Studies, textbooks are bottom of the barrel—little is cutting edge, most is a compilation, most people in the business of Bib Scholarship publish a book like this for money and it wouldn't be considered "scholarship" at all. Furthermore, arguments around gospel origins, genre, form criticism, and motifs have very short half-life. Therefore, a textbook (not original scholarship, surface deep compilation) written thirteen years ago (in a field with quick half-life) is not a good source. Second, (2) "Reliable sources must be strong enough to support the claim. A lightweight source may sometimes be acceptable for a lightweight claim, but never for an extraordinary claim." If one does not perceive source gospel sources as an extraordinary claims than they have missed the discussion. Synoptic source discussion is one of the deepest and most fought over discussions within Biblical Criticism. With a pluthera of resources being poured into such a field, the time span a theory holds together is short. I am not asking for us to use unproven material for the sake of being cutting edge. But I suppose that a claim such as this requires the source to fulfill at least a few criteria: 1) Monograph or Article focused level research. A monograph or article that isn't arguing this as a thesis simply will not do. This is an import claim within the discipline and deserves "high scholarship" on a subject. 2) Modern, with time for reviews and interaction (especially if the source is a monograph). We should look for a modern and time proven monograph that has had a second wave of high-middle level of scholarship that has interacted with it positively. Positive reviews bolster the argument, but simply are not enough. Often reviews are written before release and do not include the entire monograph. 3) Reputable Publication. All articles within biblical scholarship should be published through SBL or be found within an Edited Volume by a Senior Scholar. All Monographs and Editorials should be published by established and reputable publishers with heavy peer review process. Examples include but are not limited to: Brill, T&T Clark, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Eerdmans, or Zondervan. Translated pieces ought to be judged by their original language's publishers, however, 90% of good scholarship published by good publishers in the 20th century in German is published by good publishers today. Exceptions exist but are easily deciphered and dealt with as they appear (EX:New Testament Theology-Rudolf Bultman-E.T. Baylor University Press)(This isn't modern scholarship so using this specific piece would require a more thorough investigation into those working on it).
My Suggestion: "but most modern scholars do not accept Papias' claim." to "though most modern scholars have not accepted Papias' claim since 1983 [cit:Antioch and Rome by Raymond E Brown; John P Meier], Richard Bauckham's Jesus and the Eyewitness has recently given Papias' theory modern credibility."
This edit provides a reputable anti-Papian view of Petrine origins to Mark, while showing the most modern consensus.
Applying My Criteria to My Source: Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony, (Grand Rapids, Mich: William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co, 2006). 1) The Monograph is focused upon the source of Mark, Papias' claims, and Petrine origins. Perhaps the chapters that focus in on the argument might be more appropriate, but it is passim therefore a full book citation is the most pragmatic approach. 2) The Monograph is at the prime of its existence. Two scholarly responses: (1) Park, Yoon-Man. Mark's Memory Resources and the Controversy Stories (Mark 2:1-3:6) An Application of the Frame Theory of Cognitive Science to the Markan Oral-Aural Narrative. (Leiden: Brill, 2010). A positive response. Divulges into the ancient practice of eyewitness as sources for historians and provides suitable socio-historical backgrounds for the practice. (2) REDMAN, JUDITH C. S. How Accurate Are Eyewitnesses? Bauckham and the Eyewitnesses in the Light of Psychological Research JBL. http://www.jstor.org/stable/27821012. Unfavorable response. Questions the accuracy of cognitive recall of an eyewitness. However, this paper does not hurt Papias' claim. It might make an eyewitness unreliable, but it doesn't seek to overthrow Papias. It would just argue Peter is unreliable. (I think the piece has some solid points to make but is overall a bit poor, but that is just me).
Reviews: Generally Positive- Marius Nel- http://www.jstor.org/stable/43049260 Mixed/Slightly Positive (probably the best review out there for questioning Bauckham's Name Usage Theories and Petrine Material Inclusio, still doesn't discredit Papias)- Dean Bechard- http://www.jstor.org/stable/42614886 Generally Positive (sometimes unclear)- Thomas A. Wayment http://www.jstor.org/stable/43044700
3)Published by Eerdmans
I will leave this discussion up for approx. a week to allow for people to discuss and leave feedback, then we can make the edit.
BTS.ACU.MCM ( talk) 13:39, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Surely devoting the vast bulk of a very brief discussion of date to the tiny minority view of Crossley is inappropriate. This might just qualify for a footnote, but does not belong to the main text. On a related matter, 65-75 is a more appropriate date range when it comes to reflecting scholarly opinion. -- Sineaste ( talk) 13:22, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
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I have merely quoted Burkett as he himself states it in the work cited i.e. not most "modern scholars," but, "most critical scholars...." Although I would note that Burkett himself makes no attempt to list who these critical scholars are which is sloppy at best. In light of this I have also provided, quite legitimately, a moderate alternative opinion from Drane (a respected biblical scholar with one of the best selling books on biblical scholarship). Drane's logic is sound, and I believe in the interests of honesty, accuracy and balance the edits should remain.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Busynotrushed ( talk • contribs)
Verifiable information should not be removed. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:28, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
(2) Unlike Matthew and Luke, Mark does not present Jesus as the offspring of a virgin mother and a divine Father. As far as we know from Mark, Jesus was a normal human being with a birth like that of everyone else.
— Burkett (2002: 158)
This is what I mean by verifiable information. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:35, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
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"The Church has consequently derived its view of Jesus primarily from Matthew, secondarily from John, and only distantly from Mark." This is not supported by the reference at the end of the paragraph, and sounds like an idea someone thought up. As does much of the article. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 17:10, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Last paragraph of this section is wrong, as this Wikipedia entry from Sayings of Jesus on the cross explains:
Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" It is the only saying that appears in more than one Gospel,[13] and is a quote from Psalms 22:2. This saying is taken by some as an abandonment of the Son by the Father. Other theologians understand the cry as that of one who was truly human and who felt forsaken. Put to death by his foes, very largely deserted by his friends, he may have felt also deserted by God.[20]
Others point to this as the first words of Psalm 22 and suggest that Jesus recited these words, perhaps even the whole psalm, "that he might show himself to be the very Being to whom the words refer; so that the Jewish scribes and people might examine and see the cause why he would not descend from the cross; namely, because this very psalm showed that it was appointed that he should suffer these things."[21]
Theologian Frank Stagg points to what he calls "a mystery of Jesus' incarnation: "...he who died at Golgotha (Calvary) is one with the Father, that God was in Christ, and that at the same time he cried out to the Father".[22]
In Aramaic, the phrase was/is rendered, "אלי אלי למה סואחטאני".[citation needed][dubious – discuss] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.2.143 ( talk) 23:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
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