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This diff records an edit by a new editor with a dicey record. Adult editors competent in this area may want to vet this.-- Wetman ( talk) 07:27, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Kindly, Sponsianus ( talk) 09:56, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
The point here is that it is now established that Gondophares was a title, not only the name of one king. A bit like Augustus for the Romans - it was first Octavianus' name but was used by his successors as a title. The older references that have been added, and who identify Gondophares I with the Gondophares of the Takht-i-Bahi inscription and the Saint Thomas gospel, do so more or less by default, not fully recognising the other Gondophars. New coin types have emerged since, others have been better attributed. The numismatic evidence presented by R.C. Senior, who is the leading author on Indo-Scythian chronology, is quite forcing to its nature, based as it is on sequences of overstrikes of coins. Gondophares I is not as late as 20-46 AD, that would have absurd consequences for the chronology of the Kushans and many minor dynasties of the same period.
Older and less specialised sources can't really be used to challenge such new advances, and such an approach does not do justice to these sources. If Bivar, an excellent scholar whose work The History of Eastern Iran is a general introduction to this subject, would write a newer edition - the one mentioned here is 27 years old - he would naturally absorb the latest numismatic advances. Ditto for even older theological works: theologists did not do the dating of Gondophares themselves.
Please don't change back without adding some comments addressing these problems. My update of the Indo-Parthian chronology was first met by an unmotivated revert, coupled with ad hominem accusations; I would appreciate a more constructive approach. Kindly, Sponsianus ( talk) 13:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately this is a general difficulty with wikipedias critieria and specialist fields in which there are few experts. If someone takes an idio-syncratic approach (as Senior does) to one aspect in a major work on the source material it is unlikely to be contradicted in the secondary literature for quite a long time, so might appear to be uncontested. Senior's re-attribution of the Takht-i-Bahi inscription to the later ruler Sasan has met with almost no acceptance. In part this is because his claim that a late date to Gondophares would require an 'absurd consequence' for Kushan chronology is completely unfounded. In fact, because Gondophares and his successors are connected to Kushan chronology by mutual over-strikes of their coins it is Senior who has been backed into defending a very early chronology for the Kushans, almost fifty years earlier than is now widely accepted. You might find it useful to look at post-2000 works by Joe Cribb, Harry Falk, and Robert Bracey (some of which I suspect you are already familiar with) on the reasons to favour an AD 127 date for Kanishka, rather than the AD 78 date used by Senior, and then reconsider the changes you have made. In fact all of those authors have at one point or another suggested the Azes era might be later than 57 BC and thus that Gondophares may even be a decade later than his traditional dating. RBr ( talk) 16:09, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
The text: "Indian names include 'Gondapharna', 'Guduvhara' and Pali 'Gudaphara'. Gondophares is 'Gastaphar' in Armenian. “Gundafarnah” was apparently the Eastern Iranian (Sistani) form of the name. [1]" . . . . has recently been changed to: "Gondophares is 'Gastaphar' in Armenian. “Gundaparnah” was apparently the Eastern Iranian (Sistani) form of the name. In Pashto, the most widely spoken Eastern Iranian language, it is Gandapur, a sirname and one denoting a certain tribal lineage amongst the Pashtoons of Pakistan and Afghanistan. [2]" Does the reference really say this? I can't remember ever reading this in Boyce and Genet's work - but I have not read it for years and I no longer have access to the (very expensive and difficult to find) text.
Can anyone with access to a good library please check this out? Many thanks, John Hill ( talk) 10:14, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
References
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@
HistoryofIran: There's a lot of flowery content in this article about Gondophares "belonging to the great house of Suren". First, I don't think there is any proof of this, second this is merely an interesting theory from a hundred years ago by
Ernst Herzfeld: in the reference, Bivar just mentions that theory, and does not corroborate it or affirm it as true
[1], he just suggests that some legends may refer to this indirectly, and that the Surens were probably involved in repelling the Sakas. It's all we should do: describe the theory, but certainly not affirm it as fact. The Cambridge History of Iran has "possibly member of the house of Suren"
[2], that's probably the farthest we can go.
पाटलिपुत्र
Pat
(talk)
15:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm pinging
User:LouisAragon too, would apparently also had a comment about that
[3].
पाटलिपुत्र
Pat
(talk)
15:32, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Page views of this article over the last 90 days:
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This diff records an edit by a new editor with a dicey record. Adult editors competent in this area may want to vet this.-- Wetman ( talk) 07:27, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Kindly, Sponsianus ( talk) 09:56, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
The point here is that it is now established that Gondophares was a title, not only the name of one king. A bit like Augustus for the Romans - it was first Octavianus' name but was used by his successors as a title. The older references that have been added, and who identify Gondophares I with the Gondophares of the Takht-i-Bahi inscription and the Saint Thomas gospel, do so more or less by default, not fully recognising the other Gondophars. New coin types have emerged since, others have been better attributed. The numismatic evidence presented by R.C. Senior, who is the leading author on Indo-Scythian chronology, is quite forcing to its nature, based as it is on sequences of overstrikes of coins. Gondophares I is not as late as 20-46 AD, that would have absurd consequences for the chronology of the Kushans and many minor dynasties of the same period.
Older and less specialised sources can't really be used to challenge such new advances, and such an approach does not do justice to these sources. If Bivar, an excellent scholar whose work The History of Eastern Iran is a general introduction to this subject, would write a newer edition - the one mentioned here is 27 years old - he would naturally absorb the latest numismatic advances. Ditto for even older theological works: theologists did not do the dating of Gondophares themselves.
Please don't change back without adding some comments addressing these problems. My update of the Indo-Parthian chronology was first met by an unmotivated revert, coupled with ad hominem accusations; I would appreciate a more constructive approach. Kindly, Sponsianus ( talk) 13:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately this is a general difficulty with wikipedias critieria and specialist fields in which there are few experts. If someone takes an idio-syncratic approach (as Senior does) to one aspect in a major work on the source material it is unlikely to be contradicted in the secondary literature for quite a long time, so might appear to be uncontested. Senior's re-attribution of the Takht-i-Bahi inscription to the later ruler Sasan has met with almost no acceptance. In part this is because his claim that a late date to Gondophares would require an 'absurd consequence' for Kushan chronology is completely unfounded. In fact, because Gondophares and his successors are connected to Kushan chronology by mutual over-strikes of their coins it is Senior who has been backed into defending a very early chronology for the Kushans, almost fifty years earlier than is now widely accepted. You might find it useful to look at post-2000 works by Joe Cribb, Harry Falk, and Robert Bracey (some of which I suspect you are already familiar with) on the reasons to favour an AD 127 date for Kanishka, rather than the AD 78 date used by Senior, and then reconsider the changes you have made. In fact all of those authors have at one point or another suggested the Azes era might be later than 57 BC and thus that Gondophares may even be a decade later than his traditional dating. RBr ( talk) 16:09, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
The text: "Indian names include 'Gondapharna', 'Guduvhara' and Pali 'Gudaphara'. Gondophares is 'Gastaphar' in Armenian. “Gundafarnah” was apparently the Eastern Iranian (Sistani) form of the name. [1]" . . . . has recently been changed to: "Gondophares is 'Gastaphar' in Armenian. “Gundaparnah” was apparently the Eastern Iranian (Sistani) form of the name. In Pashto, the most widely spoken Eastern Iranian language, it is Gandapur, a sirname and one denoting a certain tribal lineage amongst the Pashtoons of Pakistan and Afghanistan. [2]" Does the reference really say this? I can't remember ever reading this in Boyce and Genet's work - but I have not read it for years and I no longer have access to the (very expensive and difficult to find) text.
Can anyone with access to a good library please check this out? Many thanks, John Hill ( talk) 10:14, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
References
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Gondophares. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
@
HistoryofIran: There's a lot of flowery content in this article about Gondophares "belonging to the great house of Suren". First, I don't think there is any proof of this, second this is merely an interesting theory from a hundred years ago by
Ernst Herzfeld: in the reference, Bivar just mentions that theory, and does not corroborate it or affirm it as true
[1], he just suggests that some legends may refer to this indirectly, and that the Surens were probably involved in repelling the Sakas. It's all we should do: describe the theory, but certainly not affirm it as fact. The Cambridge History of Iran has "possibly member of the house of Suren"
[2], that's probably the farthest we can go.
पाटलिपुत्र
Pat
(talk)
15:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm pinging
User:LouisAragon too, would apparently also had a comment about that
[3].
पाटलिपुत्र
Pat
(talk)
15:32, 30 November 2021 (UTC)