This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gimbap article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I wish for someone to add to the article directions on how to make and assemble gimbap together. -- 터울 02:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Cited on the bottom, the sources 6, 7, and 8 are incomplete sentences. "일본음식에서 유래된 것으로" means "in the origin of Japanese is". Citation 6 is not "한국민족문화대백과[Encyclopedia of Korean National Culture]" but rather a section from Nate Encyclopedic Database. The full sentence is "김밥은 밥에 여러 가지 속을 넣고 김으로 말아 싼 음식으로 일본음식에서 유래된 것으로 보이며 우리나라에서는 근대 이후에 많이 먹기 시작한 것으로 추측된다.", which roughly translates to "Kimbap, a food consisting of rolled with rice and a variety of ingredients, generally viewed as Japanese in origin, is hypothesized to have gained popularity in our country (Korea) afterwards."
It does NOT say that Gimbap (or Kimbap) is derived from Makizushi or vice versa. "보이며" means to be seen or viewed, so it would mean that it is believed to be this way. Also, whatever happened to the Ssambap section? Ssambap is no longer an article. Please either put the information in the section of Gimbap or create a new "Ssambap" article. You cannot delete something in its entirety because you disagree with it; it exists therefore its documentation stays.
Please revise this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.217.206.254 ( talk) 05:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Last month I ate "kimbab" in a korean restaurant in London and seeing there was no article about it in Finnish Wikipedia, I started one. There was an article in Swedish Wikipedia for kimbab, but it took some time to find the English version. I don't know korean or how it's translitterated, but the name of the food seems to be spelled gimbap, kimbap and kimbab. Which is the right form? Are the alternate versions common enough to be mentioned in the article or to be redirected here? -- Sumiko 08:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no historical evidence that Kimbap came from Maki-zushi. Even Maki-zushi formed current style (one-bite small size) AFTER World War II. During Chosun Dynasity, Koreans usually eat rice with kim(nori in Japanese) and banchan. This evolved into current Kimbap and even there are some theories that Japanese Makizushi was inspired by this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crmtm ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC).
In 1995, the Ministry of Culture and Sports (文化體育部/문화체육부) of South Korea published a book named "Japanese life wording purification collection" (日本語式生活用語純化集/일본어투 생활 용어 순화집), and proposed that the foreign word 노리마키 (NoRiMaKi) was changed to 김밥 (GimBap). And norimaki (in Japanese language) resembles maki-zushi.
Therefore, I think that there are some relations to these words.
See also:
-- Nightshadow28 17:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Korean article is non-existent, Japanese article requires a login. Both hold no academic value whatsoever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.217.206.254 ( talk) 06:06, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Azukimonaka and nightshadow28, much of Japanese cuisine flowed from China and Korea. There is no apparent authority, treatise or otherwise suggesting that the renaming of "kimbap" is a result of Japanese influence. To suggest that "kimbap" and even the so-called "introduction of nori" is not entirely truthful, as dried seaweed has not been proven to be a purely Japanese invention. Can we delete the last paragraph of this stub? It is not accurate and offensive. Those links you proffer do not demonstrate your point in any case.
I will submit more documentation evidencing that "nori" was NOT introduced to Korea, nor was kimbap "introduced" or a product of re-invention from Japan. In fact, it is the other way around. Unless you submit more authority proving either of your points, I will delete the paragraph or ask the Administrator to do so. Azntokki 02:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Azntokki
(Some of my comments below were copied from this discussion at AN/I.-- Endroit ( talk))
This edit by 144.82.106.67, and this edit by Manacpowers ( talk · contribs), attempted to replace "is derived from" with "a parent to". This appears to be misinformation, and I will correct this.
Due to violation on WP:CIV, I deleted Acuwer's ( talk) accusations and statements. In fact, the whole conversation is not productive and it seems that Acuwer just want to provoke. It becomes clear when he start using inappropriate arguments and linking non topic youtube videos just to fuel some dispute. Fniss ( talk) 12:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Regards removal of Cyi5697 ( talk) added content. Oda Mari reverts my removal and asking me to refute added content when Cyi5697 is the one should provide sources and references. It seems that Oda Mari is bias? Since its heavily debated topic, it should reach consensus before adding on the article. Its already stated "There are two views about the origin of Gimbap... " There is no need for yet another section that someone randomly adding personal POV without providing source or reference. "The origin of kimbap is sushi" is not "...two views about the origin of Gimbap" witch is already accepted and stated in earlier section. Therefore Cyi5697 added section is not NPOV and should be removed. - Fniss ( talk) 17:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Since I noticed the quality of reference is quite bad and level of academic value is about zero. I think we should look over the sources. As far as I can see. there is no valid source proving that Gimbap is being derived from Norimaki.
Im not trying to push any buttons. Im updating the swedish wiki and I want to make sure the articles have some sort of credibility and value.. without second hand references. I tried to search for any proof for that statement myself but couldn't find any. Again, there is no source that proof that Gimbap is derived from Norimaki. Im removing the statement until someone can provide valid sources that hold some sort of academic value. – Oppa talk – 22:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems like this page is missing an important bit of information, namely that gimbap is a sort of onigiri rather than sushi, or at least is classified that way. I can add citations, but I already added what seemed to me like a commonsense change incorporated basically what the Wikipedia page on onigiri already says, but it was reverted. Since this page is apparently heavily edited, it was wrong of me to make the changes without reaching consensus here. So for the sake of discussion, here's my argument:
Thoughts? I've numbered these points so that anyone can responded to whichever one they think is too weak or unsupportable. JohnDavidWard ( talk) 19:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
A Taiwanese version of samgak gimbap is sold in convenience stores in Taiwan and in Chinese is known as "三角飯糰" (Sānjiǎo fàntuán). Though currently they are not covered in the relevant article Ci fan tuan.
The more "typical" types of fantuan however don't really resemble the "typical" types of gimbap. — Hippietrail ( talk) 10:10, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
There's obviously some sort of connection between sushi and gimbap, and one is derived from the other, or both from a common cultural source. If there are competing theories about its history, both should be mentioned. There's absolutely nothing controversial about the idea of shared Japanese-Korean cultural traits.
Removing any mention of sushi here is unacceptable whitewashing. Anyone who wishes to delve into the finer points of nationalism animosity between Japan and Korea can go work on Japan–Korea disputes. This article is about a dish and our readers will clearly want more information on obvious similarities, so leave your nationalism at the door.
Peter Isotalo 14:10, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
I just removed [2] the entire content related to gimbap being a indigenous Korean food. The argument is based entirely on the premise that bokssam evolved into gimbap, and the source for this is the Samgungnyusa. So obviously original research. The other sources were either inaccessible or simply had nothing relevant to say on the matter.
If anyone else wants to include a Korean origin theory in the article, I recommend reading the policy documents at WP:NPOV and WP:RS before contributing.
Peter Isotalo 10:16, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
I just want to make this clear, in order to avoid any potential conflict regarding the subject matter. Presently, the sources provided indicate that gimbap was indeed derived from the introduction of norimaki or some other type of makizushi. However, saying that gimbap was "originally called norimaki" is an unsupported claim. All the sources say is that gimbap and norimaki were both used to describe the dish, but that later, the National Institute of the Korean Language made the former standard. I would avoid incorporating personal interpretations of the sources in order to maintain content neutrality. BlackRanger88 ( talk) 04:38, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
@ User:Phoenix7777: I think the disconnect here is that you haven't read the source in its entirety. The stand-alone page you added cannot be understood without the context of the rest of the source (i.e. the website). I recommend that you spend some time reading about what the agency does, which is easily accessible under the introduction page and other supporting pages, rather than the single page that you're seemingly referring to. Additionally, if you're just referring to the specific page that you linked, it says absolutely nothing about norimaki being the "original" word. It simply says that the word is now considered improper. That assumption you made ultimately constitutes WP:OR.
Finally, you cannot expect me to go out of my way to find sources to disprove the unsourced claim you made. That makes no sense. You would need to add additional sources that actually state the claim you're trying to make, if you want to keep the sentence as it is in the article. Peter, in regards to preserving a strict interpretation of the article, in should be made clear that presently, the source Phoenix added does not, in any way shape or form say that norimaki was the "original" term used. @ User:Phoenix7777: Please, if you can, show me where in the source it says "Norimaki was the original term for gimbap", "gimbap was first called norimaki" or something of the sort. If you can, I will gladly revert my position. If not, it should not be included in the article, end of story. I think that this assessment is the most objective way of determining the validity of the content in question, in order to avoid adding personal interpretations of the source content. BlackRanger88 ( talk) 00:56, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Edit: And just to be clear, since you appear to be a non-native English speaker, the word "once" in this context simply means that in one period of time, both terms were used. I don't see how inclusion of this word could be contentious. BlackRanger88 ( talk) 03:27, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
"Original Word"
As such, regarding compromise, if you also take issue with the word "once", then I suggest, "The terms gimbap and norimaki were both used to describe the dish until gimbap alone became standard as part of efforts to purify the Korean language." BlackRanger88 ( talk) 04:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Phoenix, your refusal to cooperate and find compromise does not excuse the inclusion of blatantly inaccurate information in the article. As such, I will be deleting it. The content in its current form should be restored, if and only if you can find a reliable source that says, "Gimbap was originally called norimaki", "Norimaki was the first word used for gimbap", or something along those lines, as per WP:OR and WP:NPOV. Please note that I will consider repeated additions of this same content without verification as vandalism, and will report it as such. Thanks for your understanding. BlackRanger88 ( talk) 03:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Phoenix7777: The reason I used the term "some Koreans" is because without the term, it makes it sound as though norimaki was the only term used before the linguistic purification movements, which is misleading to say the least. Ultimately, the source does not say that norimaki was the only term used before it was removed from Korean vocabulary, so making the content appear to say as such would be inappropriate. Logically speaking as well, the purification movement wouldn't use a term that none of the populace used before to replace a commonly used term. If you don't like "some Koreans" then I suggest using, "The term norimaki was used by some to..." BlackRanger88 ( talk) 05:09, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
There are clingy people lurking on this article keep deleting legitimately referenced facts & logical corollaries from those facts. First, there are 2 different theories on Kimbap's origin. They only show 1 side; they delete the other theory. Second, they delete legitimately referenced facts such as how Kimxam doesn't allow cutting. They just delete that kind of referenced fact for no reason. Third, they delete logical corollaries from the new inserted facts (why the other theory is more likely) as if they are opinions instead of logical corollaries. The following is the accurate referenced contents I had added which some lurkers kept deleting.
An example of defensive over-reaching is this post keep being deleted with nonsense like "encyclopedia doesn't count as a reference". Using encyclopedia or not is not up to you to decide; encyclopedia is a legitimate reference on historical facts & academic perception; you are clearly over-reaching & there should be a restraint against this kind's meddling. Many sources are legitimate to verify historical facts & perception. Many different sources can be used as references including newspaper, encyclopedia, etc; they are accepted as valid references in general as a matter of the authenticity making the contents qualified. The sources are reputable; the contents & references are authentic, legitimate, qualified. It is not up to you what sources, what contents, what references are legitimate. What makes them legitimate & qualified is authenticity. If the authenticity is there for facts or perception, then the references are qualified. It is a matter of having an authentic proof. Being an authentic proof makes the reference qualified. It's about proving what is being heard (someone saying), what is being seen, what is being done.
proposed edits
|
---|
There is a theory that Gimbap was derived from the introduction of Japanese sushi variant norimaki to Korea during the Japanese occupation of Korea (1910-1945), [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] In that theory, they say that, since then, gimbap has become a distinct dish, often utilizing traditional Korean flavors, as well as sesame oil, instead of rice vinegar. [6] [7] The loan word norimaki, which was borrowed from the Japanese dish that was introduced to Korea, was used along with the term gimbap to describe the dish until gimbap was made the universal term, as part of efforts to purify the Korean language. [8] There is also another theory (if you look up references, you can find both types of references) that Kimbob originated from Korea and that Japan adopted this culture from Korea. [9] In this case, the term Norimaki would be the loanword borrowed from Korea. Also, Korean purifying the language by converting or replacing Japanese words in Korean language into Korean words doesn't count as a proof of loanword. Having such Japanese words in Korean language is not because such objects are Japanese but because Korean had used Japanese during Japanese occupation; it is a matter of habit. For example, Korean also purified the word Obon (plate) into Jubsi, but Korean always has had plate. [10] Here, the culture of Kimxam is focused. Kim means seaweed; bob means rice; xam/ssam means wrap. Since Norimaki means seaweed wrap, this is a direct translation of the traditional Korean food Bokxam which included Kimxam. Kimxam traditionally consisted of rice and vegetables wrapped with Kim. This is not really eaten today, but it had been eaten even until Japanese occupation. Of course, there is no proof that today's Kimbob derived from Kimxam. However, there is no proof that it didn't neither. Also, the similarities are striking like the concept of wrapping rice & other ingredients in it. Quoting from Korean Central Research Institute, "김밥의 일본 유래설보다 고유음식설이 보다 설득력을 얻고 있다. [네이버 지식백과] 김밥 (한국민족문화대백과, 한국학중앙연구원)", "Korean origin is more persuasive than Japanese origin for Kimbob. (Korean Ethnicity Culture Encyclopedia, Korean Central Research Institute)". Now, aside from Kimbob having no proof to have derived from Kimxam, there is a proof that Futomaki derived from Kimxam. Kimxam has been recorded to have prohibited cutting. [11] Quoting from Korean Culture Encyclopedia, "김쌈을 싸는 김은 칼로 자르지 않고 통김을 그대로 올리며, 상위에서 손으로 대충대충 잘라서 쌈을 싼다. 칼로 자르면 벼 모가지 자르는 것이라 하여 삼간다.", "Kimxam's Kim is not cut with a knife. It is ripped with hand roughly. Cutting is prohibited as this is considered as cultivating." Futomaki has the same culture. So, when we are looking at Futomaki & Kimxam, we have these unique same traits: 1. no cutting. 2. rice & vegetables wrapped together. 3. 5~6 ingredients massively packed together. Even if assuming the other traits to be coincidence, the unique act of prohibiting cutting shows that Futomaki has to be from Kimxam. According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 19th century’s book Donggooksesigi, Page 197, “박, 오이, 버섯 등 각종 채소 말린 것과 콩, 호박, 및 순무 등 각종 무를 저장해 둔 것을 묵은 나물 이라고 하며 이 날 반드시 이 나물들을 만들어 먹는다. 오이꼭지 가지껍질 무잎 등도 모두 버리지 않고 말려두었다가 삶아서 먹는데 이렇게 하면 여름에 더위를 타지 않는다고 한다. 채소 잎이나 김으로 밥을 싸서 먹는데 이것을 복쌈 이라고 한다. 내 생각에는 형초세시기 (荊楚歲時記)에 인일(人日)에 일곱가지 채소로 국을 끓인다 고 하였는데 이것이 지금 풍속에는 정월 보름날로 옮겨졌으며.” Translating, “Bak, cucumber, mushroom, etc dried vegetables & bean, pumpkin, radish, etc stored are called saturated Namul; in this day, these Namul are made & eaten. Cucumber tip, eggplant skin, radish leaves are not thrown away but dried then eaten boiled. They say this prevents the heat. With Kim [seaweed] or leaf, rice is wrapped & eaten; this is called Bokxam. Hyungchosesigi says that 7 vegetables are used to boil a soup on Inil. In my guess, this culture seems to have moved to the Lunar January 15th [the holiday at the beginning of the farming similar to Japanese Setsubun] into today's culture.” [12] In this record, they don’t directly say that the 7 vegetables on that holiday is wrapped inside Bokxam (luck wrap). According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 1819’s Yulyangsesigi, P121, “이날 김에다 취나물 등속과 밥을 싸서 많이 먹으면 좋다고 하는데 이를 복쌈[縛苫]이라고 하며”, “on this day, inside Kim [seaweed], Chi-namul vegetable & rice are wrapped; they say it is good to eat a lot; this is called Bokxam”. Hence, there are historical records that Kimxam (Bokxam wraps with either leaf or Kim; Kim wrap is called Kimxam) wraps rice & vegetables together. Going to the previous record on Donggooksesigi, the 7 vegetables are (or can be) wrapped together with rice inside Kimxam (seaweed wrap) also known as Bokxam (luck wrap) exactly like Futomaki also called Ehomaki (luck wrap) using 7 ingredients & prohibiting cutting. The most important things about Japanese Maki is that all Japanese Maki evolved from uncut Futomaki & that Futomaki existed in only 1 small region in Japan & that Futomaki is new in Japan. Futomaki was traditional only in the Kansai region during the Setsubun festival. By 2000, this spread to all of Japan; the other Maki types started from Futomaki. Futomaki was called Ehomaki (lucky direction Maki) because it composed of 7 ingredients. 7 is not a traditional lucky number in East Asia. Hence, such name shows that Futomaki is very new to Japan. The Korean references are also important; the absence of old records in Japan is also important. As for Kimbob & Kimxam, they were spread nationwide in Korea. There is another trait that Futomaki & Kimbob match with the name Kimxam. In 1928 May 1st, a Korean restaurant Myungwolkwan wrote an article on Korean food samples. [13] Among Myungwolkwan restaurant's articles, Xam type (there are many different wrapped foods in Korean food) was recorded including Kimxam. Quoting from that, which was called Haetaepo meaning Nori (haetae) Maki (po) except that it was specifically written as Kimxam beside Haetaepo, “김을하동엣것이 상둥이니 구워노면 얄고고으며연도색이나나니라 김쌈은별수업시 죠흔김을티뜻고부벼서 한장식처노코 기름발으로 티업는소곰을뿌려가며 설당을죠곰뿌리고 재여두엇다가석쇠에구어 항용법대로하는대 요사이는 날로구어 진상에찍어서 밥위에노아먹기도하나니라”, “cover Kim with oil, then some salt & sugar. However, this process may be skipped”. [14] Kimbob is known to cover with oil, which coincides with 1928’s Kimxam. This reference doesn’t say how other ingredients are wrapped along with rice, but there are other references mentioning such especially 7 vegetables just like Futomaki (Ehomaki). Haetae is pronounced Nori in Japanese. There is another trait that Futomaki & Kimbob match with Kimxam. Kimxam is classified as a type of Bokxam. Bok means luck; xam/ssam means wrap. Futomaki is also called Ehomaki which means luck (eho) wrap (maki). Whether Kimbob is identical to Kimxam or is an upgraded version of Kimxam is not important. What's important is the connection. Kimbob and Kimxam are different, but it is important that Kimbob & Futomaki came from Korean Kimxam. Since the traditional records focused Kimxam on vegetables, it is likely that Kimxam & Kimbob are not identical. If a Korean cook varies Kimxam's ingredients & makes it into a cylinder shape, that becomes Kimbob & Futomaki. When looking at Kimbob's Kimxam ancestry, Kimbob is the more convenient & commercialized Kimxam. Kimbob is like preparing & varying Kimxam to be sold or to be carried around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikibreaking ( talk • contribs) 00:27, 1 January 2016 (UTC) Norimaki is a generic term. If we look at a specific type, Kimbob can be compared to Futomaki. Kimbob was likely before Futomaki. Maki is different from Kimbob while Futomaki (Maki's origin) is the same. Futomaki was traditional in only 1 Japanese region, Kansai, during the evening of the Setsubun festival. Kimbob & Kimxam were spread nationwide in Korea. It is logical for Futomaki (which existed in only 1 region in Japan) to have copied from Korean Kimbob & Kimxam that were spread nationwide. It is illogical for Korean Kimbob to have searched & copied what existed in only 1 Japanese region, not nation-wide. Futomaki is similar to Kimbob in ingredients like 5~6 ingredients packed together (massive ingredients is a key feature) with meat or tuna. This is essentially the same form as Kimxam except that Kimxam seems to have been in a rectangular brick form. Kimbob is related to Futomaki (existed only in 1 region in Japan), not regular Maki (spread nationwide in Japan by editing Futomaki). References
|
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikibreaking ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 21:13, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 18:32, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 03:44, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Decline per WP:NOR.―― Phoenix7777 ( talk) 07:07, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Here is a new proposed entry focusing on Kimxam lineage by Futomaki & Kimbob. Kimxam is related & should be mentioned.
proposed addition
|
---|
There is also another theory (if you look up references, you can find both types of references) that Kimbob originated from Korea and that Japan adopted this culture from Korea. "Korean origin is more persuasive than Japanese origin for Kimbob. (Korean Ethnicity Culture Encyclopedia, Korean Central Research Institute)". [4] Korean purifying the language by converting or replacing Japanese words in Korean language into Korean words doesn't count as a proof of loanword. Having such Japanese words in Korean language is not because such objects are Japanese but because Korean had used Japanese during Japanese occupation; it is a matter of habit. For example, Korean also purified the word Obon (plate) into Jubsi, but Korean always has had plate. [5] The important names for Kimbob’s relation to Japan is Norimaki, Futomaki, Bokxam, Kimxam. Historically, there is no record that Kimxam was rolled into a cylinder. It seems that Korea adopted this shape during Japanese occupation. Since Japanese Norimaki was shaped cylinder even before that, Kimbob’s cylinder shape is an imitation of Norimaki. However, covering with oil or wrapping about 7 abundant ingredients are like Kimxam. The evolution in the diversity of ingredients to the use of ham, tuna, meat also differs from Norimaki. The taste & ingredients are the extension of Kimxam. [6] There are 2 traits in Kimbob: cylindrical shape & the taste of ingredients. The shape is from Norimaki. For the trait in taste, Kimbob covers with oil & wraps abundant ingredients at the same time. In 1928 May 1st, a restaurant Myungwolkwan published articles “Korean Food Traits”. Among Myungwolkwan restaurant's articles, Xam type (there are many different wrapped foods in Korean food) was recorded including Kimxam. Quoting from that, which was called Haetaepo meaning Nori (haetae) Maki (po) except that it was specifically written as Kimxam beside Haetaepo, “cover a paper of Kim [seaweed] with oil, then some salt & sugar. However, this process may be skipped”. [7] [8] Kimbob’s trait of covering with oil like Kimxam shows a connection between Kimbob & Kimxam. This isn’t a new recipe nor Japanese recipe but a traditional Korean recipe. Aside from the use of oil, the article also mentions Kim to be a form of paper. Now, let’s see the ingredients. In Kimxam, the important thing is the use of 7 vegetables. Those vegetables can be eaten separately or wrapped inside Kimxam; it’s the taste of Korea. According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 19th century’s book Donggooksesigi, Page 197, “Bak, cucumber, mushroom, etc dried vegetables & bean, pumpkin, radish, etc stored [pickled] vegetables are called Mugen [rancid] Namul; on this day, these Namul are made & eaten. Cucumber tip, eggplant skin, radish leaves are not thrown away but dried then eaten boiled. They say this prevents the heat. With Kim [seaweed] or leaf, rice is wrapped & eaten; this is called Bokxam. Hyungchosesigi says that 7 vegetables are used to boil a soup on Inil. In my guess, this culture seems to have moved to the Lunar January 15th [the holiday at the beginning of the farming similar to Japanese Setsubun] into today's culture.” [9] In that record, they don’t directly say that the 7 vegetables on that holiday is wrapped inside Bokxam (luck wrap). According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 1819’s Yulyangsesigi, P121, “on this day, inside Kim [seaweed], Chi-namul vegetable & rice are wrapped; they say it is good to eat a lot; this is called Bokxam”. [10] Chi-namul is a vegetable similar to spinach. The record specifically said that it goes inside Kimxam, not outside. Hence, there are historical records that Kimxam (Bokxam wraps with either leaf or Kim; Kim wrap is called Kimxam) wraps rice & vegetables together. Going to the previous record on Donggooksesigi, the 7 vegetables are (or can be) wrapped together with rice inside Kimxam (seaweed wrap) also known as Bokxam (luck wrap). Korean Kimbob’s ingredients have evolved with ham, meat, tuna, etc, but the basic structure still matches with the traditional Kimxam. Hence, Kimxam uses Japanese Norimaki’s cylindrical shape while using Korean Kimxam’s oil covering & Kimxam’s Lunar January 15th vegetables (can be eaten separately or inside Kimxam) as the basis. Kimbob’s taste connects to the traditional Korean taste. On top of that, it evolved for the diversity in ingredients such as ham, tuna, meat, etc. The reason Kimxam is similar to Norimaki is relevant to the claim that Norimaki’s root is Korean Kimxam. Quoting from Korea Times as one example of such perception how Korean influenced Japan with that culture, “Japanese Norimaki should find its root in Korean Kimxam culture.” [11] Kimxam & Futomaki have many common traits. Unlike how Kimxam was spread nationwide in Korea, Futomaki was eaten only in Japan’s Kansai region during Setsubun festival. This culture is said to have spread nationwide in Japan by 2000. The other Maki types started from Futomaki. Futomaki is also called Ehomaki. This means luck direction Maki. Since Japan’s Norimaki started in 19th century at the end of Edo era, Kimxam’s history (recorded even in 18th century Donggooksesigi) is older. [12] [13] First, let’s look at the names. Kimbob is a new word, but Bokxam & Kimxam are traditional words. Norimaki’s Nori means Kim (seaweed) & Maki means Xam (wrap). Futomaki is also called Ehomaki; Eho means Bok (luck) & Maki means Xam (wrap). Hence, Norimaki & Futomaki are direct translations of the traditional Korean terms Kimxam & Bokxam. Now, let’s see the specifics. Even if the cylindrical shape was started by Japan, there are many other traits started from Korean Kimxam. Second, Futomaki does not cut just like Kimxam. “Kim wrapping Kimxam is not cut with a knife; the whole Kimg is used entirely; it is ripped roughly with hands when wrapping. Cutting with a knife is prohibited as it’s considered as harming crop.” [14] Third, aside from the culture of prohibiting cutting, Kimxam’s important trait is the use of 7 vegetables in Lunar January 15th. Those vegetables can be eaten separately or wrapped inside Kimxam; it’s the taste of Korea. Futomaki also uses 7 ingredients. According to Donggooksesigi & Yulyangsesigi, such vegetables are eaten on the Lunar January 15th when Kimxam is eaten. Also, they can go inside Kimxam. [15] Fourth, Futomaki was eaten only on a holiday like Kimxam. It is much later that this became a casual food. It was originally eaten only during Setsubun Festival (the beginning of spring) in only Kansai region. This is similar to the Lunar January 15th (the beginning of farming) when the 7 vegetables & Kimxam are eaten for luck. References
|
Wikibreaking ( talk) 21:22, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 04:02, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
proposed addition new version January 5th
|
---|
1. There is also another theory (if you look up references, you can find both types of references) that Kimbob originated from Korea and that Japan adopted this culture from Korea. "Korean origin is more persuasive than Japanese origin for Kimbob. (Korean Ethnicity Culture Encyclopedia, Korean Central Research Institute)". [1] 2. Korean used to speak Japanese during Japanese occupation; Korean still had the habit of using Japanese words even after liberation, which Korean had fixed by language purification. Korean has purified the language on various Korean objects such as plates (from Obon to Jubsi) by converting or replacing Japanese words in Korean language. [2] 3. The important names that pop up for Kimbob’s relation to Japan are Norimaki, Futomaki, Bokxam, Kimxam. There are claims that Kimbob’s cylindrical shape is from Japanese Norimaki. There are also claims that Korean Kimbob significantly differ from Norimaki in many traits, which Kimxam is often attributed to. [3] Kimbob covers with oil & wraps abundant ingredients at the same time. Since Kimxam & Futomaki are huge topics in Kimbob, let’s introduce what they are. 4. In 1928 May 1st, a restaurant Myungwolkwan published articles “Korean Food Traits”. Among Myungwolkwan restaurant's articles, Xam type (there are many different wrapped foods in Korean food) was recorded including Kimxam. Quoting Kimxam, which was called Haetaepo meaning Nori (haetae) Maki (po) except that it was specifically written as Kimxam beside Haetaepo, “cover a paper of Kim [seaweed] with oil, then some salt & sugar. However, this process may be skipped”. [4] [5] There is a claim that the use of oiling is a new recipe created by editing Norimaki, but Kimxam already had this trait. Aside from the use of oil, the article also mentions Kim to be a form of paper. 5. Kimxam was eaten on Lunar January 15th when roughly 7 vegetables were eaten. Korean wrapping food style is that they can be either eaten together or wrapped inside the wrap. They are the taste of Korean anyway. According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 19th century’s book Donggooksesigi, Page 197, “Bak, cucumber, mushroom, etc dried vegetables & bean, pumpkin, radish, etc stored [pickled] vegetables are called Mugen [rancid] Namul; on this day, these Namul are made & eaten. Cucumber tip, eggplant skin, radish leaves are not thrown away but dried then eaten boiled. They say this prevents the heat. With Kim [seaweed] or leaf, rice is wrapped & eaten; this is called Bokxam. Hyungchosesigi says that 7 vegetables are used to boil a soup on Inil. In my guess, this culture seems to have moved to the Lunar January 15th [the holiday at the beginning of the farming similar to Japanese Setsubun] into today's culture.” [6] 6. According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 1819’s Yulyangsesigi, P121, “on this day, inside Kim [seaweed], Chi-namul vegetable & rice are wrapped; they say it is good to eat a lot; this is called Bokxam”. [7] Chi-namul is a vegetable similar to spinach. The record specifically said that it goes inside Kimxam, not outside. Hence, there are historical records that Kimxam (Bokxam wraps with either leaf or Kim; Kim wrap is called Kimxam) wraps rice & vegetables together. Kimxam was spread nationwide in Korea. Bokxam means luck wrap; Kimxam means Kim (seaweed) wrap. Also, Kimxam prohibits cutting when wrapping. “Kim wrapping Kimxam is not cut with a knife; the whole Kimg is used entirely; it is ripped roughly with hands when wrapping. Cutting with a knife is prohibited as it’s considered as harming crop.” [8] Kimbob evolved for the diversity in ingredients such as ham, tuna, meat, etc. 7. The reason Kimxam is similar to Norimaki is relevant to the claim that Norimaki’s root is Korean Kimxam. Quoting from Korea Times as one example of such perception how Korean influenced Japan with that culture, “Japanese Norimaki should find its root in Korean Kimxam culture.” [9] Since Japan’s Norimaki started in 19th century at the end of Edo era, Kimxam’s history (recorded even in 18th century Donggooksesigi) is older. [10] 8. Futomaki was eaten only in Japan’s Kansai region during Setsubun festival. This culture is said to have spread nationwide in Japan by 2000. The other Maki types started from Futomaki. Futomaki is also called Ehomaki. This means luck direction Maki. Futomaki is known to have prohibited cutting & to have used 7 ingredients. Futomaki was eaten only during this time; it is much later that Futomaki became a casual food. References
|
Wikibreaking ( talk) 04:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 00:50, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
As for here, *AT LEAST* mention that there is a theory that Kimbap has its root in Korean Gimssam, then link to Gimssam article. So, here is the following paragraph that can be briefly mentioned. Then, just redirect the users (the ones that are interested in deep facts instead of what is presented here) to my Gimssam article written specifically on Gimssam with a brief mention of Gimbap. The readers can decide on their own which theory is more likely after reading the details on what Gimssam is such as the use of oiling, wrapping rice with paper-like seaweed, dry vegetables like carrots, long vegetables like spinach, pickled vegetables like pickled radish. All these traits exist both in Gimbap (typically oiled with carrots, spinach, pickled radish Danmuji) & Gimssam.
I am fed up with you guys, just insert this 1 short paragraph then redirect to Gimssam article to learn deep details on it
|
---|
There is also another theory that Gimbap originated from Korea and that Japan adopted this culture from Korea. "Korean origin is more persuasive than Japanese origin for Kimbob. (Korean Ethnicity Culture Encyclopedia, Korean Central Research Institute)". [1] In this theory, a traditional Korean food Gimssam is particularly focused. References |
That encyclopedia was written by a research institute, not a regular internet user. Also, that's a validly existing theory. Hence, there is no reason why this should not be mentioned. It's an official theory with an official reference. Then, the readers can read on Gimssam. Then, they can make their own decision whether it makes sense for Korean to have had no such food, imported Norimaki, then invented all those traits afterward, or for Korean to have had always Gimssam then just changed the shape (cylindrical) after Norimaki was introduced. As for Danmuji (used in Gimbap), that is a Japanese radish pickle. However, Korean also always has had radish pickle (far longer than Japanese) which was used in Gimssam. There are multiple different versions like radish kimchi, dongchimi, etc.
Wikibreaking ( talk) 20:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Gimbap. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:54, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
According to MOS:FOREIGNITALIC, "Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English." Can we assume that gim, bap, and gimbap all qualify, and should be italicized throughout? Barte ( talk) 15:58, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
" Gimbap is easy to eat and is good to eat outside because the bowl does not get dirty even after eating all the Gimbap" was removed due to being an opinion. Easy to eat is a subjective claim Ehgarrick ( talk) 14:56, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Briefly looking through this talk page, there seems to be a lot of disagreement on various things. The history section is one of them. I am not here with any agenda seeing as I am neither Korean nor Japanese. I just want to point out that the following paragraphs (copied straight from the page) under the History section makes no sense.
"Some sources say it was derived from norimaki, a Japanese sushi variant introduced to Korea during the Japanese occupation.
For a long time, the Japanese ceremony used to be called “Norimaki” in Korea, but in 1948 it was designated as “김밥 (Kimpapu)” by the Korean government's policy to enrich the national language."
1. What is "the Japanese ceremony" supposedly called "norimaki"? Norimaki is just a type of sushi, not a ceremony.
2. 김밥 is not read as "kimpapu". That looks, instead, like an amateur romanisation of "キムパプ" (kimupapu).
3. There seems to be no sources for the 1948 language policy.
Again, this discussion is solely made to comment on the problematic quality of this part of the article, not a nationalist attempt at claiming the origin of gimbap.
Update: Nonsensical part was removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crayontulips ( talk • contribs) 13:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Just avoiding an edit war and posting my suggestion here. The article was recently changed to suggest that the 'most widely adopted theory' is the 'Japanese origin' theory, thereby suggesting that the 'bakssam origin' theory is 'fringe'. I know there has already been a lot of discussion on the merits of both theories in this talk page. That's why I propose this edit:
1. Put in both the introduction and 'history' section that the origin of gimbap is contested. Both theories have sources to support them, but nobody can definitively say that one is correct over the other (ie. there's no consensus). Some of the sources linked to the 'Japanese origin' theory acknowledge this. The 'Ministry of Culture' page refers to the debate, and doesn't only support this theory, for example.
2. Make no reference to which theory is 'the most widely adopted' or the use of similar phrasing. Per WP:BALANCE and WP:IMPARTIAL, the article should just describe disputes, rather than engage in them. To suggest that one theory is necessarily better than the others (especially considering the lack of scholarly work on this topic, because... it's a food) would violate them. One user suggested in the revision history that it would violate WP:FALSEBALANCE. However, the policy only applies to fringe theories; the fact that both theories are described and sourced in detail in the article and talk page suggest that neither fall under this.
TL:DR: Change the language so that neither theory appears favored over the other. Thoughts? NettingFish15019 ( talk) 16:21, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
“Production of gim in Gyeongsang and Jeolla Provinces is reported in books from the 15th century, such as Gyeongsang-do Jiriji and Sinjeung Dongguk Yeoji Seungnam.[20][21] Yeoryang Sesigi (열양세시기), a Joseon book written in 1819 by Kim Mae-sun (김매순) refers to cooked rice and filling rolled with Gim as bokssam (복쌈; transcribed using the hanja 縛占, pronounced bakjeom in Korean).[7][8] One other theory suggests that Gimbap was introduced to Japan during the Baekje period.[22][23]”
On the last part, how is it possible that gimbap was introduced to Japan during the 600s if the production of gim was only recorded as early as the 15th century? ^That part is incorrect. Gim has existed in Korea since 57 BCE to 668 CE.
It is more likely than anything that makizushi was introduced to Korea from Japan even before the occupation because it is recorded that makizushi has been around since at least 1749 from the following literature: http://kotenseki.nijl.ac.jp/biblio/100249438/viewer/1 http://kotenseki.nijl.ac.jp/biblio/100249399/viewer/19 Tomicalover ( talk) 20:08, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Mention about "Ita-Nori (板海苔)" is very important for the article.
Gimbap is required to be wrapped by the dried Sheet form of gim "Ita-Nori (板海苔)". Ita-nori was invented in Asakusa, Edo(contemporary Tokyo) , around 1750 Edo era of Japan for the purpose of making makizushi. Gim had been consumed as paste form until the sheet form "Ita-nori" was transferred from Japan to Korea at the period of the Japanese occupation of Korea. Ita-nori and makizushi was transferred to Korea during the Japanese occupation of Korea and it became Gimbap which has current form of sushi. Gimbap is originated in makizushi because of it. Even If you wrapped raice by paste form of gim, it is not a Gimbap. But a different meals. 240B:C020:491:30BC:4C32:B27E:9D2A:6DA2 ( talk) 01:00, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Gimbap is required to be wrapped by the dried Sheet form of gim "Ita-Nori (板海苔)".
Even If you wrapped rice by paste form of gim, it is not a Gimbap. But a different meals.
Ita-nori was invented in Asakusa, Edo(contemporary Tokyo) , around 1750 Edo era of Japan for the purpose of making makizushi.
Gim had been consumed as paste form until the sheet form "Ita-nori" was transferred from Japan to Korea at the period of the Japanese occupation of Korea.
Ita-nori and makizushi was transferred to Korea during the Japanese occupation of Korea and it became Gimbap which has current form of sushi.
Gimbap is originated in makizushi because of it. Even If you wrapped rice by paste form of gim, it is not a Gimbap. But a different meals. the meals which book of Joseon era was mentioned was just a rice meals wrapped by paste form of Gim. It us not a Gimbap.
Gimbap is especially similar to the Japanese Futomaki ,the sort of makizushi which is not always one ingredient nor always including the raw fish but a rolled with several ingredients such as takuan(yellow pickled radish which always included in Gimbap as danmuji ), vegetables, egg , shrimp , fish and meat. 240B:C020:491:30BC:4C32:B27E:9D2A:6DA2 ( talk) 01:20, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ User:Larry Hockett, you recently removed the category in the reason parameter for this article's title being italicized. Could you please clarify why you did this? Should a reason not be listed in the hatnote? Thanks. Revirvlkodlaku ( talk) 01:57, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gimbap article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I wish for someone to add to the article directions on how to make and assemble gimbap together. -- 터울 02:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Cited on the bottom, the sources 6, 7, and 8 are incomplete sentences. "일본음식에서 유래된 것으로" means "in the origin of Japanese is". Citation 6 is not "한국민족문화대백과[Encyclopedia of Korean National Culture]" but rather a section from Nate Encyclopedic Database. The full sentence is "김밥은 밥에 여러 가지 속을 넣고 김으로 말아 싼 음식으로 일본음식에서 유래된 것으로 보이며 우리나라에서는 근대 이후에 많이 먹기 시작한 것으로 추측된다.", which roughly translates to "Kimbap, a food consisting of rolled with rice and a variety of ingredients, generally viewed as Japanese in origin, is hypothesized to have gained popularity in our country (Korea) afterwards."
It does NOT say that Gimbap (or Kimbap) is derived from Makizushi or vice versa. "보이며" means to be seen or viewed, so it would mean that it is believed to be this way. Also, whatever happened to the Ssambap section? Ssambap is no longer an article. Please either put the information in the section of Gimbap or create a new "Ssambap" article. You cannot delete something in its entirety because you disagree with it; it exists therefore its documentation stays.
Please revise this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.217.206.254 ( talk) 05:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Last month I ate "kimbab" in a korean restaurant in London and seeing there was no article about it in Finnish Wikipedia, I started one. There was an article in Swedish Wikipedia for kimbab, but it took some time to find the English version. I don't know korean or how it's translitterated, but the name of the food seems to be spelled gimbap, kimbap and kimbab. Which is the right form? Are the alternate versions common enough to be mentioned in the article or to be redirected here? -- Sumiko 08:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no historical evidence that Kimbap came from Maki-zushi. Even Maki-zushi formed current style (one-bite small size) AFTER World War II. During Chosun Dynasity, Koreans usually eat rice with kim(nori in Japanese) and banchan. This evolved into current Kimbap and even there are some theories that Japanese Makizushi was inspired by this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crmtm ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC).
In 1995, the Ministry of Culture and Sports (文化體育部/문화체육부) of South Korea published a book named "Japanese life wording purification collection" (日本語式生活用語純化集/일본어투 생활 용어 순화집), and proposed that the foreign word 노리마키 (NoRiMaKi) was changed to 김밥 (GimBap). And norimaki (in Japanese language) resembles maki-zushi.
Therefore, I think that there are some relations to these words.
See also:
-- Nightshadow28 17:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Korean article is non-existent, Japanese article requires a login. Both hold no academic value whatsoever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.217.206.254 ( talk) 06:06, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Azukimonaka and nightshadow28, much of Japanese cuisine flowed from China and Korea. There is no apparent authority, treatise or otherwise suggesting that the renaming of "kimbap" is a result of Japanese influence. To suggest that "kimbap" and even the so-called "introduction of nori" is not entirely truthful, as dried seaweed has not been proven to be a purely Japanese invention. Can we delete the last paragraph of this stub? It is not accurate and offensive. Those links you proffer do not demonstrate your point in any case.
I will submit more documentation evidencing that "nori" was NOT introduced to Korea, nor was kimbap "introduced" or a product of re-invention from Japan. In fact, it is the other way around. Unless you submit more authority proving either of your points, I will delete the paragraph or ask the Administrator to do so. Azntokki 02:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Azntokki
(Some of my comments below were copied from this discussion at AN/I.-- Endroit ( talk))
This edit by 144.82.106.67, and this edit by Manacpowers ( talk · contribs), attempted to replace "is derived from" with "a parent to". This appears to be misinformation, and I will correct this.
Due to violation on WP:CIV, I deleted Acuwer's ( talk) accusations and statements. In fact, the whole conversation is not productive and it seems that Acuwer just want to provoke. It becomes clear when he start using inappropriate arguments and linking non topic youtube videos just to fuel some dispute. Fniss ( talk) 12:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Regards removal of Cyi5697 ( talk) added content. Oda Mari reverts my removal and asking me to refute added content when Cyi5697 is the one should provide sources and references. It seems that Oda Mari is bias? Since its heavily debated topic, it should reach consensus before adding on the article. Its already stated "There are two views about the origin of Gimbap... " There is no need for yet another section that someone randomly adding personal POV without providing source or reference. "The origin of kimbap is sushi" is not "...two views about the origin of Gimbap" witch is already accepted and stated in earlier section. Therefore Cyi5697 added section is not NPOV and should be removed. - Fniss ( talk) 17:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Since I noticed the quality of reference is quite bad and level of academic value is about zero. I think we should look over the sources. As far as I can see. there is no valid source proving that Gimbap is being derived from Norimaki.
Im not trying to push any buttons. Im updating the swedish wiki and I want to make sure the articles have some sort of credibility and value.. without second hand references. I tried to search for any proof for that statement myself but couldn't find any. Again, there is no source that proof that Gimbap is derived from Norimaki. Im removing the statement until someone can provide valid sources that hold some sort of academic value. – Oppa talk – 22:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems like this page is missing an important bit of information, namely that gimbap is a sort of onigiri rather than sushi, or at least is classified that way. I can add citations, but I already added what seemed to me like a commonsense change incorporated basically what the Wikipedia page on onigiri already says, but it was reverted. Since this page is apparently heavily edited, it was wrong of me to make the changes without reaching consensus here. So for the sake of discussion, here's my argument:
Thoughts? I've numbered these points so that anyone can responded to whichever one they think is too weak or unsupportable. JohnDavidWard ( talk) 19:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
A Taiwanese version of samgak gimbap is sold in convenience stores in Taiwan and in Chinese is known as "三角飯糰" (Sānjiǎo fàntuán). Though currently they are not covered in the relevant article Ci fan tuan.
The more "typical" types of fantuan however don't really resemble the "typical" types of gimbap. — Hippietrail ( talk) 10:10, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
There's obviously some sort of connection between sushi and gimbap, and one is derived from the other, or both from a common cultural source. If there are competing theories about its history, both should be mentioned. There's absolutely nothing controversial about the idea of shared Japanese-Korean cultural traits.
Removing any mention of sushi here is unacceptable whitewashing. Anyone who wishes to delve into the finer points of nationalism animosity between Japan and Korea can go work on Japan–Korea disputes. This article is about a dish and our readers will clearly want more information on obvious similarities, so leave your nationalism at the door.
Peter Isotalo 14:10, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
I just removed [2] the entire content related to gimbap being a indigenous Korean food. The argument is based entirely on the premise that bokssam evolved into gimbap, and the source for this is the Samgungnyusa. So obviously original research. The other sources were either inaccessible or simply had nothing relevant to say on the matter.
If anyone else wants to include a Korean origin theory in the article, I recommend reading the policy documents at WP:NPOV and WP:RS before contributing.
Peter Isotalo 10:16, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
I just want to make this clear, in order to avoid any potential conflict regarding the subject matter. Presently, the sources provided indicate that gimbap was indeed derived from the introduction of norimaki or some other type of makizushi. However, saying that gimbap was "originally called norimaki" is an unsupported claim. All the sources say is that gimbap and norimaki were both used to describe the dish, but that later, the National Institute of the Korean Language made the former standard. I would avoid incorporating personal interpretations of the sources in order to maintain content neutrality. BlackRanger88 ( talk) 04:38, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
@ User:Phoenix7777: I think the disconnect here is that you haven't read the source in its entirety. The stand-alone page you added cannot be understood without the context of the rest of the source (i.e. the website). I recommend that you spend some time reading about what the agency does, which is easily accessible under the introduction page and other supporting pages, rather than the single page that you're seemingly referring to. Additionally, if you're just referring to the specific page that you linked, it says absolutely nothing about norimaki being the "original" word. It simply says that the word is now considered improper. That assumption you made ultimately constitutes WP:OR.
Finally, you cannot expect me to go out of my way to find sources to disprove the unsourced claim you made. That makes no sense. You would need to add additional sources that actually state the claim you're trying to make, if you want to keep the sentence as it is in the article. Peter, in regards to preserving a strict interpretation of the article, in should be made clear that presently, the source Phoenix added does not, in any way shape or form say that norimaki was the "original" term used. @ User:Phoenix7777: Please, if you can, show me where in the source it says "Norimaki was the original term for gimbap", "gimbap was first called norimaki" or something of the sort. If you can, I will gladly revert my position. If not, it should not be included in the article, end of story. I think that this assessment is the most objective way of determining the validity of the content in question, in order to avoid adding personal interpretations of the source content. BlackRanger88 ( talk) 00:56, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Edit: And just to be clear, since you appear to be a non-native English speaker, the word "once" in this context simply means that in one period of time, both terms were used. I don't see how inclusion of this word could be contentious. BlackRanger88 ( talk) 03:27, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
"Original Word"
As such, regarding compromise, if you also take issue with the word "once", then I suggest, "The terms gimbap and norimaki were both used to describe the dish until gimbap alone became standard as part of efforts to purify the Korean language." BlackRanger88 ( talk) 04:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Phoenix, your refusal to cooperate and find compromise does not excuse the inclusion of blatantly inaccurate information in the article. As such, I will be deleting it. The content in its current form should be restored, if and only if you can find a reliable source that says, "Gimbap was originally called norimaki", "Norimaki was the first word used for gimbap", or something along those lines, as per WP:OR and WP:NPOV. Please note that I will consider repeated additions of this same content without verification as vandalism, and will report it as such. Thanks for your understanding. BlackRanger88 ( talk) 03:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Phoenix7777: The reason I used the term "some Koreans" is because without the term, it makes it sound as though norimaki was the only term used before the linguistic purification movements, which is misleading to say the least. Ultimately, the source does not say that norimaki was the only term used before it was removed from Korean vocabulary, so making the content appear to say as such would be inappropriate. Logically speaking as well, the purification movement wouldn't use a term that none of the populace used before to replace a commonly used term. If you don't like "some Koreans" then I suggest using, "The term norimaki was used by some to..." BlackRanger88 ( talk) 05:09, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
There are clingy people lurking on this article keep deleting legitimately referenced facts & logical corollaries from those facts. First, there are 2 different theories on Kimbap's origin. They only show 1 side; they delete the other theory. Second, they delete legitimately referenced facts such as how Kimxam doesn't allow cutting. They just delete that kind of referenced fact for no reason. Third, they delete logical corollaries from the new inserted facts (why the other theory is more likely) as if they are opinions instead of logical corollaries. The following is the accurate referenced contents I had added which some lurkers kept deleting.
An example of defensive over-reaching is this post keep being deleted with nonsense like "encyclopedia doesn't count as a reference". Using encyclopedia or not is not up to you to decide; encyclopedia is a legitimate reference on historical facts & academic perception; you are clearly over-reaching & there should be a restraint against this kind's meddling. Many sources are legitimate to verify historical facts & perception. Many different sources can be used as references including newspaper, encyclopedia, etc; they are accepted as valid references in general as a matter of the authenticity making the contents qualified. The sources are reputable; the contents & references are authentic, legitimate, qualified. It is not up to you what sources, what contents, what references are legitimate. What makes them legitimate & qualified is authenticity. If the authenticity is there for facts or perception, then the references are qualified. It is a matter of having an authentic proof. Being an authentic proof makes the reference qualified. It's about proving what is being heard (someone saying), what is being seen, what is being done.
proposed edits
|
---|
There is a theory that Gimbap was derived from the introduction of Japanese sushi variant norimaki to Korea during the Japanese occupation of Korea (1910-1945), [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] In that theory, they say that, since then, gimbap has become a distinct dish, often utilizing traditional Korean flavors, as well as sesame oil, instead of rice vinegar. [6] [7] The loan word norimaki, which was borrowed from the Japanese dish that was introduced to Korea, was used along with the term gimbap to describe the dish until gimbap was made the universal term, as part of efforts to purify the Korean language. [8] There is also another theory (if you look up references, you can find both types of references) that Kimbob originated from Korea and that Japan adopted this culture from Korea. [9] In this case, the term Norimaki would be the loanword borrowed from Korea. Also, Korean purifying the language by converting or replacing Japanese words in Korean language into Korean words doesn't count as a proof of loanword. Having such Japanese words in Korean language is not because such objects are Japanese but because Korean had used Japanese during Japanese occupation; it is a matter of habit. For example, Korean also purified the word Obon (plate) into Jubsi, but Korean always has had plate. [10] Here, the culture of Kimxam is focused. Kim means seaweed; bob means rice; xam/ssam means wrap. Since Norimaki means seaweed wrap, this is a direct translation of the traditional Korean food Bokxam which included Kimxam. Kimxam traditionally consisted of rice and vegetables wrapped with Kim. This is not really eaten today, but it had been eaten even until Japanese occupation. Of course, there is no proof that today's Kimbob derived from Kimxam. However, there is no proof that it didn't neither. Also, the similarities are striking like the concept of wrapping rice & other ingredients in it. Quoting from Korean Central Research Institute, "김밥의 일본 유래설보다 고유음식설이 보다 설득력을 얻고 있다. [네이버 지식백과] 김밥 (한국민족문화대백과, 한국학중앙연구원)", "Korean origin is more persuasive than Japanese origin for Kimbob. (Korean Ethnicity Culture Encyclopedia, Korean Central Research Institute)". Now, aside from Kimbob having no proof to have derived from Kimxam, there is a proof that Futomaki derived from Kimxam. Kimxam has been recorded to have prohibited cutting. [11] Quoting from Korean Culture Encyclopedia, "김쌈을 싸는 김은 칼로 자르지 않고 통김을 그대로 올리며, 상위에서 손으로 대충대충 잘라서 쌈을 싼다. 칼로 자르면 벼 모가지 자르는 것이라 하여 삼간다.", "Kimxam's Kim is not cut with a knife. It is ripped with hand roughly. Cutting is prohibited as this is considered as cultivating." Futomaki has the same culture. So, when we are looking at Futomaki & Kimxam, we have these unique same traits: 1. no cutting. 2. rice & vegetables wrapped together. 3. 5~6 ingredients massively packed together. Even if assuming the other traits to be coincidence, the unique act of prohibiting cutting shows that Futomaki has to be from Kimxam. According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 19th century’s book Donggooksesigi, Page 197, “박, 오이, 버섯 등 각종 채소 말린 것과 콩, 호박, 및 순무 등 각종 무를 저장해 둔 것을 묵은 나물 이라고 하며 이 날 반드시 이 나물들을 만들어 먹는다. 오이꼭지 가지껍질 무잎 등도 모두 버리지 않고 말려두었다가 삶아서 먹는데 이렇게 하면 여름에 더위를 타지 않는다고 한다. 채소 잎이나 김으로 밥을 싸서 먹는데 이것을 복쌈 이라고 한다. 내 생각에는 형초세시기 (荊楚歲時記)에 인일(人日)에 일곱가지 채소로 국을 끓인다 고 하였는데 이것이 지금 풍속에는 정월 보름날로 옮겨졌으며.” Translating, “Bak, cucumber, mushroom, etc dried vegetables & bean, pumpkin, radish, etc stored are called saturated Namul; in this day, these Namul are made & eaten. Cucumber tip, eggplant skin, radish leaves are not thrown away but dried then eaten boiled. They say this prevents the heat. With Kim [seaweed] or leaf, rice is wrapped & eaten; this is called Bokxam. Hyungchosesigi says that 7 vegetables are used to boil a soup on Inil. In my guess, this culture seems to have moved to the Lunar January 15th [the holiday at the beginning of the farming similar to Japanese Setsubun] into today's culture.” [12] In this record, they don’t directly say that the 7 vegetables on that holiday is wrapped inside Bokxam (luck wrap). According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 1819’s Yulyangsesigi, P121, “이날 김에다 취나물 등속과 밥을 싸서 많이 먹으면 좋다고 하는데 이를 복쌈[縛苫]이라고 하며”, “on this day, inside Kim [seaweed], Chi-namul vegetable & rice are wrapped; they say it is good to eat a lot; this is called Bokxam”. Hence, there are historical records that Kimxam (Bokxam wraps with either leaf or Kim; Kim wrap is called Kimxam) wraps rice & vegetables together. Going to the previous record on Donggooksesigi, the 7 vegetables are (or can be) wrapped together with rice inside Kimxam (seaweed wrap) also known as Bokxam (luck wrap) exactly like Futomaki also called Ehomaki (luck wrap) using 7 ingredients & prohibiting cutting. The most important things about Japanese Maki is that all Japanese Maki evolved from uncut Futomaki & that Futomaki existed in only 1 small region in Japan & that Futomaki is new in Japan. Futomaki was traditional only in the Kansai region during the Setsubun festival. By 2000, this spread to all of Japan; the other Maki types started from Futomaki. Futomaki was called Ehomaki (lucky direction Maki) because it composed of 7 ingredients. 7 is not a traditional lucky number in East Asia. Hence, such name shows that Futomaki is very new to Japan. The Korean references are also important; the absence of old records in Japan is also important. As for Kimbob & Kimxam, they were spread nationwide in Korea. There is another trait that Futomaki & Kimbob match with the name Kimxam. In 1928 May 1st, a Korean restaurant Myungwolkwan wrote an article on Korean food samples. [13] Among Myungwolkwan restaurant's articles, Xam type (there are many different wrapped foods in Korean food) was recorded including Kimxam. Quoting from that, which was called Haetaepo meaning Nori (haetae) Maki (po) except that it was specifically written as Kimxam beside Haetaepo, “김을하동엣것이 상둥이니 구워노면 얄고고으며연도색이나나니라 김쌈은별수업시 죠흔김을티뜻고부벼서 한장식처노코 기름발으로 티업는소곰을뿌려가며 설당을죠곰뿌리고 재여두엇다가석쇠에구어 항용법대로하는대 요사이는 날로구어 진상에찍어서 밥위에노아먹기도하나니라”, “cover Kim with oil, then some salt & sugar. However, this process may be skipped”. [14] Kimbob is known to cover with oil, which coincides with 1928’s Kimxam. This reference doesn’t say how other ingredients are wrapped along with rice, but there are other references mentioning such especially 7 vegetables just like Futomaki (Ehomaki). Haetae is pronounced Nori in Japanese. There is another trait that Futomaki & Kimbob match with Kimxam. Kimxam is classified as a type of Bokxam. Bok means luck; xam/ssam means wrap. Futomaki is also called Ehomaki which means luck (eho) wrap (maki). Whether Kimbob is identical to Kimxam or is an upgraded version of Kimxam is not important. What's important is the connection. Kimbob and Kimxam are different, but it is important that Kimbob & Futomaki came from Korean Kimxam. Since the traditional records focused Kimxam on vegetables, it is likely that Kimxam & Kimbob are not identical. If a Korean cook varies Kimxam's ingredients & makes it into a cylinder shape, that becomes Kimbob & Futomaki. When looking at Kimbob's Kimxam ancestry, Kimbob is the more convenient & commercialized Kimxam. Kimbob is like preparing & varying Kimxam to be sold or to be carried around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikibreaking ( talk • contribs) 00:27, 1 January 2016 (UTC) Norimaki is a generic term. If we look at a specific type, Kimbob can be compared to Futomaki. Kimbob was likely before Futomaki. Maki is different from Kimbob while Futomaki (Maki's origin) is the same. Futomaki was traditional in only 1 Japanese region, Kansai, during the evening of the Setsubun festival. Kimbob & Kimxam were spread nationwide in Korea. It is logical for Futomaki (which existed in only 1 region in Japan) to have copied from Korean Kimbob & Kimxam that were spread nationwide. It is illogical for Korean Kimbob to have searched & copied what existed in only 1 Japanese region, not nation-wide. Futomaki is similar to Kimbob in ingredients like 5~6 ingredients packed together (massive ingredients is a key feature) with meat or tuna. This is essentially the same form as Kimxam except that Kimxam seems to have been in a rectangular brick form. Kimbob is related to Futomaki (existed only in 1 region in Japan), not regular Maki (spread nationwide in Japan by editing Futomaki). References
|
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikibreaking ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 21:13, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 18:32, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 03:44, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Decline per WP:NOR.―― Phoenix7777 ( talk) 07:07, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Here is a new proposed entry focusing on Kimxam lineage by Futomaki & Kimbob. Kimxam is related & should be mentioned.
proposed addition
|
---|
There is also another theory (if you look up references, you can find both types of references) that Kimbob originated from Korea and that Japan adopted this culture from Korea. "Korean origin is more persuasive than Japanese origin for Kimbob. (Korean Ethnicity Culture Encyclopedia, Korean Central Research Institute)". [4] Korean purifying the language by converting or replacing Japanese words in Korean language into Korean words doesn't count as a proof of loanword. Having such Japanese words in Korean language is not because such objects are Japanese but because Korean had used Japanese during Japanese occupation; it is a matter of habit. For example, Korean also purified the word Obon (plate) into Jubsi, but Korean always has had plate. [5] The important names for Kimbob’s relation to Japan is Norimaki, Futomaki, Bokxam, Kimxam. Historically, there is no record that Kimxam was rolled into a cylinder. It seems that Korea adopted this shape during Japanese occupation. Since Japanese Norimaki was shaped cylinder even before that, Kimbob’s cylinder shape is an imitation of Norimaki. However, covering with oil or wrapping about 7 abundant ingredients are like Kimxam. The evolution in the diversity of ingredients to the use of ham, tuna, meat also differs from Norimaki. The taste & ingredients are the extension of Kimxam. [6] There are 2 traits in Kimbob: cylindrical shape & the taste of ingredients. The shape is from Norimaki. For the trait in taste, Kimbob covers with oil & wraps abundant ingredients at the same time. In 1928 May 1st, a restaurant Myungwolkwan published articles “Korean Food Traits”. Among Myungwolkwan restaurant's articles, Xam type (there are many different wrapped foods in Korean food) was recorded including Kimxam. Quoting from that, which was called Haetaepo meaning Nori (haetae) Maki (po) except that it was specifically written as Kimxam beside Haetaepo, “cover a paper of Kim [seaweed] with oil, then some salt & sugar. However, this process may be skipped”. [7] [8] Kimbob’s trait of covering with oil like Kimxam shows a connection between Kimbob & Kimxam. This isn’t a new recipe nor Japanese recipe but a traditional Korean recipe. Aside from the use of oil, the article also mentions Kim to be a form of paper. Now, let’s see the ingredients. In Kimxam, the important thing is the use of 7 vegetables. Those vegetables can be eaten separately or wrapped inside Kimxam; it’s the taste of Korea. According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 19th century’s book Donggooksesigi, Page 197, “Bak, cucumber, mushroom, etc dried vegetables & bean, pumpkin, radish, etc stored [pickled] vegetables are called Mugen [rancid] Namul; on this day, these Namul are made & eaten. Cucumber tip, eggplant skin, radish leaves are not thrown away but dried then eaten boiled. They say this prevents the heat. With Kim [seaweed] or leaf, rice is wrapped & eaten; this is called Bokxam. Hyungchosesigi says that 7 vegetables are used to boil a soup on Inil. In my guess, this culture seems to have moved to the Lunar January 15th [the holiday at the beginning of the farming similar to Japanese Setsubun] into today's culture.” [9] In that record, they don’t directly say that the 7 vegetables on that holiday is wrapped inside Bokxam (luck wrap). According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 1819’s Yulyangsesigi, P121, “on this day, inside Kim [seaweed], Chi-namul vegetable & rice are wrapped; they say it is good to eat a lot; this is called Bokxam”. [10] Chi-namul is a vegetable similar to spinach. The record specifically said that it goes inside Kimxam, not outside. Hence, there are historical records that Kimxam (Bokxam wraps with either leaf or Kim; Kim wrap is called Kimxam) wraps rice & vegetables together. Going to the previous record on Donggooksesigi, the 7 vegetables are (or can be) wrapped together with rice inside Kimxam (seaweed wrap) also known as Bokxam (luck wrap). Korean Kimbob’s ingredients have evolved with ham, meat, tuna, etc, but the basic structure still matches with the traditional Kimxam. Hence, Kimxam uses Japanese Norimaki’s cylindrical shape while using Korean Kimxam’s oil covering & Kimxam’s Lunar January 15th vegetables (can be eaten separately or inside Kimxam) as the basis. Kimbob’s taste connects to the traditional Korean taste. On top of that, it evolved for the diversity in ingredients such as ham, tuna, meat, etc. The reason Kimxam is similar to Norimaki is relevant to the claim that Norimaki’s root is Korean Kimxam. Quoting from Korea Times as one example of such perception how Korean influenced Japan with that culture, “Japanese Norimaki should find its root in Korean Kimxam culture.” [11] Kimxam & Futomaki have many common traits. Unlike how Kimxam was spread nationwide in Korea, Futomaki was eaten only in Japan’s Kansai region during Setsubun festival. This culture is said to have spread nationwide in Japan by 2000. The other Maki types started from Futomaki. Futomaki is also called Ehomaki. This means luck direction Maki. Since Japan’s Norimaki started in 19th century at the end of Edo era, Kimxam’s history (recorded even in 18th century Donggooksesigi) is older. [12] [13] First, let’s look at the names. Kimbob is a new word, but Bokxam & Kimxam are traditional words. Norimaki’s Nori means Kim (seaweed) & Maki means Xam (wrap). Futomaki is also called Ehomaki; Eho means Bok (luck) & Maki means Xam (wrap). Hence, Norimaki & Futomaki are direct translations of the traditional Korean terms Kimxam & Bokxam. Now, let’s see the specifics. Even if the cylindrical shape was started by Japan, there are many other traits started from Korean Kimxam. Second, Futomaki does not cut just like Kimxam. “Kim wrapping Kimxam is not cut with a knife; the whole Kimg is used entirely; it is ripped roughly with hands when wrapping. Cutting with a knife is prohibited as it’s considered as harming crop.” [14] Third, aside from the culture of prohibiting cutting, Kimxam’s important trait is the use of 7 vegetables in Lunar January 15th. Those vegetables can be eaten separately or wrapped inside Kimxam; it’s the taste of Korea. Futomaki also uses 7 ingredients. According to Donggooksesigi & Yulyangsesigi, such vegetables are eaten on the Lunar January 15th when Kimxam is eaten. Also, they can go inside Kimxam. [15] Fourth, Futomaki was eaten only on a holiday like Kimxam. It is much later that this became a casual food. It was originally eaten only during Setsubun Festival (the beginning of spring) in only Kansai region. This is similar to the Lunar January 15th (the beginning of farming) when the 7 vegetables & Kimxam are eaten for luck. References
|
Wikibreaking ( talk) 21:22, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 04:02, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
proposed addition new version January 5th
|
---|
1. There is also another theory (if you look up references, you can find both types of references) that Kimbob originated from Korea and that Japan adopted this culture from Korea. "Korean origin is more persuasive than Japanese origin for Kimbob. (Korean Ethnicity Culture Encyclopedia, Korean Central Research Institute)". [1] 2. Korean used to speak Japanese during Japanese occupation; Korean still had the habit of using Japanese words even after liberation, which Korean had fixed by language purification. Korean has purified the language on various Korean objects such as plates (from Obon to Jubsi) by converting or replacing Japanese words in Korean language. [2] 3. The important names that pop up for Kimbob’s relation to Japan are Norimaki, Futomaki, Bokxam, Kimxam. There are claims that Kimbob’s cylindrical shape is from Japanese Norimaki. There are also claims that Korean Kimbob significantly differ from Norimaki in many traits, which Kimxam is often attributed to. [3] Kimbob covers with oil & wraps abundant ingredients at the same time. Since Kimxam & Futomaki are huge topics in Kimbob, let’s introduce what they are. 4. In 1928 May 1st, a restaurant Myungwolkwan published articles “Korean Food Traits”. Among Myungwolkwan restaurant's articles, Xam type (there are many different wrapped foods in Korean food) was recorded including Kimxam. Quoting Kimxam, which was called Haetaepo meaning Nori (haetae) Maki (po) except that it was specifically written as Kimxam beside Haetaepo, “cover a paper of Kim [seaweed] with oil, then some salt & sugar. However, this process may be skipped”. [4] [5] There is a claim that the use of oiling is a new recipe created by editing Norimaki, but Kimxam already had this trait. Aside from the use of oil, the article also mentions Kim to be a form of paper. 5. Kimxam was eaten on Lunar January 15th when roughly 7 vegetables were eaten. Korean wrapping food style is that they can be either eaten together or wrapped inside the wrap. They are the taste of Korean anyway. According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 19th century’s book Donggooksesigi, Page 197, “Bak, cucumber, mushroom, etc dried vegetables & bean, pumpkin, radish, etc stored [pickled] vegetables are called Mugen [rancid] Namul; on this day, these Namul are made & eaten. Cucumber tip, eggplant skin, radish leaves are not thrown away but dried then eaten boiled. They say this prevents the heat. With Kim [seaweed] or leaf, rice is wrapped & eaten; this is called Bokxam. Hyungchosesigi says that 7 vegetables are used to boil a soup on Inil. In my guess, this culture seems to have moved to the Lunar January 15th [the holiday at the beginning of the farming similar to Japanese Setsubun] into today's culture.” [6] 6. According to Korean Cultural Encyclopedia’s published translation of 1819’s Yulyangsesigi, P121, “on this day, inside Kim [seaweed], Chi-namul vegetable & rice are wrapped; they say it is good to eat a lot; this is called Bokxam”. [7] Chi-namul is a vegetable similar to spinach. The record specifically said that it goes inside Kimxam, not outside. Hence, there are historical records that Kimxam (Bokxam wraps with either leaf or Kim; Kim wrap is called Kimxam) wraps rice & vegetables together. Kimxam was spread nationwide in Korea. Bokxam means luck wrap; Kimxam means Kim (seaweed) wrap. Also, Kimxam prohibits cutting when wrapping. “Kim wrapping Kimxam is not cut with a knife; the whole Kimg is used entirely; it is ripped roughly with hands when wrapping. Cutting with a knife is prohibited as it’s considered as harming crop.” [8] Kimbob evolved for the diversity in ingredients such as ham, tuna, meat, etc. 7. The reason Kimxam is similar to Norimaki is relevant to the claim that Norimaki’s root is Korean Kimxam. Quoting from Korea Times as one example of such perception how Korean influenced Japan with that culture, “Japanese Norimaki should find its root in Korean Kimxam culture.” [9] Since Japan’s Norimaki started in 19th century at the end of Edo era, Kimxam’s history (recorded even in 18th century Donggooksesigi) is older. [10] 8. Futomaki was eaten only in Japan’s Kansai region during Setsubun festival. This culture is said to have spread nationwide in Japan by 2000. The other Maki types started from Futomaki. Futomaki is also called Ehomaki. This means luck direction Maki. Futomaki is known to have prohibited cutting & to have used 7 ingredients. Futomaki was eaten only during this time; it is much later that Futomaki became a casual food. References
|
Wikibreaking ( talk) 04:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikibreaking ( talk) 00:50, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
As for here, *AT LEAST* mention that there is a theory that Kimbap has its root in Korean Gimssam, then link to Gimssam article. So, here is the following paragraph that can be briefly mentioned. Then, just redirect the users (the ones that are interested in deep facts instead of what is presented here) to my Gimssam article written specifically on Gimssam with a brief mention of Gimbap. The readers can decide on their own which theory is more likely after reading the details on what Gimssam is such as the use of oiling, wrapping rice with paper-like seaweed, dry vegetables like carrots, long vegetables like spinach, pickled vegetables like pickled radish. All these traits exist both in Gimbap (typically oiled with carrots, spinach, pickled radish Danmuji) & Gimssam.
I am fed up with you guys, just insert this 1 short paragraph then redirect to Gimssam article to learn deep details on it
|
---|
There is also another theory that Gimbap originated from Korea and that Japan adopted this culture from Korea. "Korean origin is more persuasive than Japanese origin for Kimbob. (Korean Ethnicity Culture Encyclopedia, Korean Central Research Institute)". [1] In this theory, a traditional Korean food Gimssam is particularly focused. References |
That encyclopedia was written by a research institute, not a regular internet user. Also, that's a validly existing theory. Hence, there is no reason why this should not be mentioned. It's an official theory with an official reference. Then, the readers can read on Gimssam. Then, they can make their own decision whether it makes sense for Korean to have had no such food, imported Norimaki, then invented all those traits afterward, or for Korean to have had always Gimssam then just changed the shape (cylindrical) after Norimaki was introduced. As for Danmuji (used in Gimbap), that is a Japanese radish pickle. However, Korean also always has had radish pickle (far longer than Japanese) which was used in Gimssam. There are multiple different versions like radish kimchi, dongchimi, etc.
Wikibreaking ( talk) 20:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Gimbap. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:54, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
According to MOS:FOREIGNITALIC, "Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English." Can we assume that gim, bap, and gimbap all qualify, and should be italicized throughout? Barte ( talk) 15:58, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
" Gimbap is easy to eat and is good to eat outside because the bowl does not get dirty even after eating all the Gimbap" was removed due to being an opinion. Easy to eat is a subjective claim Ehgarrick ( talk) 14:56, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Briefly looking through this talk page, there seems to be a lot of disagreement on various things. The history section is one of them. I am not here with any agenda seeing as I am neither Korean nor Japanese. I just want to point out that the following paragraphs (copied straight from the page) under the History section makes no sense.
"Some sources say it was derived from norimaki, a Japanese sushi variant introduced to Korea during the Japanese occupation.
For a long time, the Japanese ceremony used to be called “Norimaki” in Korea, but in 1948 it was designated as “김밥 (Kimpapu)” by the Korean government's policy to enrich the national language."
1. What is "the Japanese ceremony" supposedly called "norimaki"? Norimaki is just a type of sushi, not a ceremony.
2. 김밥 is not read as "kimpapu". That looks, instead, like an amateur romanisation of "キムパプ" (kimupapu).
3. There seems to be no sources for the 1948 language policy.
Again, this discussion is solely made to comment on the problematic quality of this part of the article, not a nationalist attempt at claiming the origin of gimbap.
Update: Nonsensical part was removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crayontulips ( talk • contribs) 13:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Just avoiding an edit war and posting my suggestion here. The article was recently changed to suggest that the 'most widely adopted theory' is the 'Japanese origin' theory, thereby suggesting that the 'bakssam origin' theory is 'fringe'. I know there has already been a lot of discussion on the merits of both theories in this talk page. That's why I propose this edit:
1. Put in both the introduction and 'history' section that the origin of gimbap is contested. Both theories have sources to support them, but nobody can definitively say that one is correct over the other (ie. there's no consensus). Some of the sources linked to the 'Japanese origin' theory acknowledge this. The 'Ministry of Culture' page refers to the debate, and doesn't only support this theory, for example.
2. Make no reference to which theory is 'the most widely adopted' or the use of similar phrasing. Per WP:BALANCE and WP:IMPARTIAL, the article should just describe disputes, rather than engage in them. To suggest that one theory is necessarily better than the others (especially considering the lack of scholarly work on this topic, because... it's a food) would violate them. One user suggested in the revision history that it would violate WP:FALSEBALANCE. However, the policy only applies to fringe theories; the fact that both theories are described and sourced in detail in the article and talk page suggest that neither fall under this.
TL:DR: Change the language so that neither theory appears favored over the other. Thoughts? NettingFish15019 ( talk) 16:21, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
“Production of gim in Gyeongsang and Jeolla Provinces is reported in books from the 15th century, such as Gyeongsang-do Jiriji and Sinjeung Dongguk Yeoji Seungnam.[20][21] Yeoryang Sesigi (열양세시기), a Joseon book written in 1819 by Kim Mae-sun (김매순) refers to cooked rice and filling rolled with Gim as bokssam (복쌈; transcribed using the hanja 縛占, pronounced bakjeom in Korean).[7][8] One other theory suggests that Gimbap was introduced to Japan during the Baekje period.[22][23]”
On the last part, how is it possible that gimbap was introduced to Japan during the 600s if the production of gim was only recorded as early as the 15th century? ^That part is incorrect. Gim has existed in Korea since 57 BCE to 668 CE.
It is more likely than anything that makizushi was introduced to Korea from Japan even before the occupation because it is recorded that makizushi has been around since at least 1749 from the following literature: http://kotenseki.nijl.ac.jp/biblio/100249438/viewer/1 http://kotenseki.nijl.ac.jp/biblio/100249399/viewer/19 Tomicalover ( talk) 20:08, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Mention about "Ita-Nori (板海苔)" is very important for the article.
Gimbap is required to be wrapped by the dried Sheet form of gim "Ita-Nori (板海苔)". Ita-nori was invented in Asakusa, Edo(contemporary Tokyo) , around 1750 Edo era of Japan for the purpose of making makizushi. Gim had been consumed as paste form until the sheet form "Ita-nori" was transferred from Japan to Korea at the period of the Japanese occupation of Korea. Ita-nori and makizushi was transferred to Korea during the Japanese occupation of Korea and it became Gimbap which has current form of sushi. Gimbap is originated in makizushi because of it. Even If you wrapped raice by paste form of gim, it is not a Gimbap. But a different meals. 240B:C020:491:30BC:4C32:B27E:9D2A:6DA2 ( talk) 01:00, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Gimbap is required to be wrapped by the dried Sheet form of gim "Ita-Nori (板海苔)".
Even If you wrapped rice by paste form of gim, it is not a Gimbap. But a different meals.
Ita-nori was invented in Asakusa, Edo(contemporary Tokyo) , around 1750 Edo era of Japan for the purpose of making makizushi.
Gim had been consumed as paste form until the sheet form "Ita-nori" was transferred from Japan to Korea at the period of the Japanese occupation of Korea.
Ita-nori and makizushi was transferred to Korea during the Japanese occupation of Korea and it became Gimbap which has current form of sushi.
Gimbap is originated in makizushi because of it. Even If you wrapped rice by paste form of gim, it is not a Gimbap. But a different meals. the meals which book of Joseon era was mentioned was just a rice meals wrapped by paste form of Gim. It us not a Gimbap.
Gimbap is especially similar to the Japanese Futomaki ,the sort of makizushi which is not always one ingredient nor always including the raw fish but a rolled with several ingredients such as takuan(yellow pickled radish which always included in Gimbap as danmuji ), vegetables, egg , shrimp , fish and meat. 240B:C020:491:30BC:4C32:B27E:9D2A:6DA2 ( talk) 01:20, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ User:Larry Hockett, you recently removed the category in the reason parameter for this article's title being italicized. Could you please clarify why you did this? Should a reason not be listed in the hatnote? Thanks. Revirvlkodlaku ( talk) 01:57, 24 December 2022 (UTC)