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I'm bringing this up again ( previous discussion here) as there is a fresh perspective on this article now. The sentence on Władysław Sikorski appearing in the WW2 subsection of the history section is to my mind very odd and out of place in this summary history of the territory. I've never even seen this mentioned in a history of Gibraltar. e.g. this book [1] has no mention in its substantial WW2 chapter. Nor does this book, which you can search inside [2] to confirm what I say. If we search Google books for "Sikorski Gibraltar" we don't find any books on Gibraltar itself [3]. A good example of where we do find it is in the Historical Dictionary of Poland [4].
It was entirely coincidental that he died leaving Gibraltar. Yes it may have been a major talking point and the subject of conspiracy theories in Gibraltar to this day, but that kind of topic should not be discussed in a history section. Therefore I suggest this sentence should be removed. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 13:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, very useful. I have chosen the picture that has the most legible English text and put it into the article. See what you think. I haven't managed to put it all into really flowing prose - best of luck. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
While the rest of Europe was cooling, the area around Gibraltar back then "resembled a European Serengeti," Finlayson said. Leopards, hyenas, lynxes, wolves and bears lived among wild cattle, horses, deer, ibexes, oryxes and rhinos — all surrounded by olive trees and stone pines, with partridges and ducks overhead, tortoises in the underbrush and mussels, limpets and other shellfish in the waters.
--this (under history) is a direct quote from Clive Finlayson, and should probably be in quotes. Efreak ( talk) 05:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
All we see of Gibraltar itself in Das Boot a very blurry nighttime silhouette (probably not even actual footage of Gibraltar - at least, looks a bit dodgy, having crossed the Straits myself) and apart from a couple of statements about getting "near to Gibraltar" there is only one real line of dialogue about it - "Gibraltar, where the mildness and beauty of the Mediterranean world meet the force and expansion of the Atlantic realm." Is this really enough to list under Gibraltar in film? The film itself is not about Gibraltar at all, and its inclusion here smacks of trivia. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 00:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
If we are really interested in war incidents concerning Gibraltar, what about the Napoleonic times? Would it not be normal to expect of Spain hold their own, rather than being France's ideal enemy. Then the Spaniards could have said: "you see? You never needed Gibraltar". Could be that Lord Nelson would be allowed to live till the age of 80 or 90. So what is to be said of the Napoleonic times? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.28.194 ( talk) 09:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
The section "Gibraltar in popular culture" consists only in trivial data. Having just read other articles about bigger cities such as Edinburgh, Madrid, Rome, Chicago or New York, after reading this one I felt that it adds very little to the article overall, which is too large already. This being a wiki, I deleted the section. However, I've been reverted twice for vandalism. I'm new to this, but I want to make it clear that I am not trying to vandalise anything. I state my opinion as a mere user of wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.41.201 ( talk) 10:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I created an article Gibraltar in popular culture and moved that section's content there. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 13:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
As civility appears to have returned to this page, perhaps it's time to nominate Gibraltar for FA status? It would need a little work to have it in a state ready for nomination - basically ensuring the manual of style is being followed - reference formats, image layouts etc (unfortunately I think some of the images would have to go - there are too many). The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 11:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
With the return (after threats of prolonged absence) of what I can only see as a WP:DIVA I have to abandon hopes of a Featured Article. An editor who can allude to some sort of apology on the 11th when I find at best "As a matter of disclosure, I said some things in the heat of the moment a few days ago that I regret and apologise publicly and unreservedly for", mixed up with comments such as "You have an agenda and wikipedia is the platform you chose to use; it isn't about writing an encyclopedia. I will never apologise for saying that, because you and I both know its true. I regret some of the things said in the heat of the moment that is all. My intention is to quit, if you wish to follow Red Hat's agenda of making it a block you go right ahead. I bare my buttocks in both of your general directions. Justin talk 15:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC)" I'm very sorry to say that in my judgement, after re-reading through the last three archive files, Justin's incivility and difficulty in getting to the point have derailed reams of discussion to date. I can see no reason why this should not continue indefinitely.
Again I ask for civility, relevant comments, encyclopedic suggested wordings rather than restatements of disagreement, and good sources. With them, we can work through almost any issues. Without them, very little can be achieved. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 22:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
San Roque was imposed on this article, in spite of reasoned objections for its inclusion, argued on the basis of policy and not one of which has ever been rebutted or answered. Instead, it has been included on the basis that was "censorship", well on the basis "When someone complains loudly about censorship, you may be certain they are up to no good.", I wish to reopen that again because I really do object to a solution being imposed by edit warring and avoiding discussion of the argument. I'm opening it up for discussion, if there is to be no discussion then I am simply going to remove it. Justin talk 14:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
To repeat, San Roque is mentioned, ahead of several other details which are uncontroversially in the article, by every reputable English-language historian. That argument achieved consensus, partly because like Atama's suggestion it avoided the historically-dubious issues. Perhaps we could have your arguments again, including any new points, before we change away from what we had managed to thrash out? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 17:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Compromise? No, it was your imposed solution. Which I objected to and which you refused to discuss. You are of course welcome to take it to talk or you can edit war to impose it again.
I await with interest to see the course of action you intend to pursue. Justin talk 15:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Happy to see Atama's compromise proposal until we see an agreement, could someone else please do a revert for me; seeing as 2 editors are reverting to their preferred version rather than a compromise which is neither mine nor theirs. I just want to underline that point. Justin talk 16:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Again, to make it plain I have no objection to the mention of San Roque in the right circumstances. San Roque may be a peripheral issue but in the History of Gibraltar we do have the time and space to devote to it. It may also be worthy of mention in the Disputed Status of Gibraltar. What I really do object to, is the people who mischaracterise my opposition to this edit proposal as "suppressing mention of San Roque at all costs" or "on grounds not acceptable to wikipedia" I have put forward a perfectly acceptable policy based rationale for my disagreement. A perfectly acceptable compromise for an overview article is to avoid mention of peripheral issues and delegate that to the more detailed article. This is within the guidelines of wikipedia for an overview. That compromise suggestion was rejected out of hand by the editors who demand we must mention San Roque in this article. What isn't acceptable grounds for wikipedia are the rationale put forward by JCRB "Some editors try to avoid mentioning San Roque to keep readers of this article in the dark about the original Gibraltarians and how they fled the rock following its occupation." because wikipedia is not a soapbox to advance such an agenda. Nor is it a soapbox to proselytise constantly about "rapings, desecrations, plundering and murders in retaliation" that happened 300 years ago. Because that is simply using emotionally charged language to try and close down the debate and paint the opposing viewpoint as unacceptable. We have wasted too much time and effort to such a peripheral issue, that many times I have thought to simply "let the babies have their chocolate" so to speak. I am utterly fed up with having my position mischaracterised and labelled as "unacceptable" when I have tried to discuss the subject in a reasonable manner and really for me the last straw was having someone who claimed to have set out to be a neutral arbiter to choose to repeat the same baseless allegations made by disruptive editors who are using wikipedia to advance an agenda. The question about when I would find acceptable to mention San Roque in this article are a loaded question. So Richard "When did you stop beating your wife?" I answered that a lot time ago, when it gives due coverage to a fringe issue. I also object to the bad tempered disusssions, largely prompted by the constant bad faith accusations of censoring or suppressing "the truth". I haven't seen one person come up with a valid policy based reason why the argument I put forward is incorrect. I'd be perfectly willing to listen or be swayed by such argument, what I'm not prepared to accept is to be bludgeoned into accepting an edit by reams of tendentious argument and constant bad faith accusations. My position has hardened solely because no one has thought to advance an argument why I'm wrong or mistaken. Neither do I respond well to editors making demands or threats of admin action. So I expect that my objections which are based upon giving undue prominence to what is a fringe issue for the subject of this article are addressed. I do not wish to see accusation of censorship or claims that we have a consensus, because there isn't one and perfectly valid compromises have been rejected out of hand. A civil POV push is still a POV push and appeasement doesn't work. Justin talk 17:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
(PS: Please take your time to read through the below... it will do you much good!)
I see an attempt to remove most of the description of the IRA incident as 'not important' - it was a major international incident which happened in Gibraltar. Three terrorists were shot. The ECHR review ruled on a matter that happened in Gibraltar and removing or trivialising it is wrong. -- Gibnews ( talk) 14:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I feel a positive sense of deja vu, claims of a consensus to be imposed by edit warring to someone's preferred version. I am surprised, not, even though it isn't my preferred version but the compromise first proffered by User:Atama. Justin talk 17:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Just a remark. San Roque was established as a municipality in 1706. San Roque was established as settlement one day after the surrender of Gibraltar. Just for the sake of clarity. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 11:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Seeing as we've imposed the content that the Government of Gibraltar is not directly responsible for internal security. Then surely to fully inform the readers of this article we should make it plain that the appointment of the judiciary is one of the important parts of the separation of powers from the Government. We should also explain how internal security is controlled, how it isn't imposed from London but is the function of the Gibraltar Police Authority and we should be explaining how it works in practise. At the moment the article is a piss-poor compromise telling half the story and leaving the false impression its controlled from London by the British Government.
Seeing as we mention that foreign representation is also the function of the British Government, we should also mention that the Government of Gibraltar is not entirely passive in this respect and where the British Government doesn't represent its interests it has stepped in, such as representing itself at the UN C24. Justin talk 17:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Another edit war has broken out so I've locked the article again (for one week). This seems to happen far too regularly; because page protection is meant to be an absolute last resort, in future any editor reverting the article for anything other than obvious vandalism (definition here), WP:BLP reasons, or to remove copyright infringement, can expect to be blocked with no further warning. EyeSerene talk 08:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Forgot to add: while protection is active, editors can use {{ editprotected}} to request an admin to make consensus edits to the article. EyeSerene talk 08:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Obviously, looking through the archives and ongoing discussions here, there are many things that people disagree about. Can we compile a list here? No arguments. No long explanations because it puts people off reading through it. No baiting. No long discussions on the issue here. Simply, just a list of everything in the article that is disputed and a one line explanation of why. At least then we can see everything that is disputed and go through them one at a time. At the moment it's going back and forth between different issues and it's quite hard to follow everything at once. We could then discuss each one in turn, and try to reach some kind of genuine consensus rather than arguing about whether there's even past consensus, which gets us distracted from the article! Willdow (Talk) 09:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)(This discussion can go on whilst the article is protected so that no off-the-cuff edit warring can take place. Hopefully we can agree to something and be constructive whilst the block is in place...)
# disputed #1 -- (short reason) # disputed #2 -- (short reason) # disputed #3 -- (short reason)
Do we have solid, reliable sources that state most people relocated to San Roque? If yes, San Roque should be very briefly mentioned (San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain, for example), but not over mentioned as, of course, the article is first and foremost about Gibraltar. If there's no rock solid sources, then the "nearby areas of Spain" sounds ok to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willdow ( talk • contribs) 10:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
No, Justin, they are no conflicts in the sources at all. All of them are coherent among them (you're an expert in statistics). The problem is that the census talked about neighbors (head of family) and not inhabitants. Some sources make an equivalence of four people per neighbor (other five or six), but all the sources clearly state that most of the Gibraltar inhabitants settled down in San Roque (or course that if you compare source A in wich 4000 people left Gibraltar with source B in which 6000 people left Gibraltar it may happen that the population settled down in San Roque according to B is larger than the whole Gibraltar population in A, but that's not the point). That's a fact. Of the remaining, other settled down in Algeciras and other in Los Barrios. Talking about "other nearby areas of Spain" suggest a random spread (something that is simply false).
With regard to your middle ground, I definitely agree with you. Our first proposals were a whole paragraph in which it was said:
Most of them took refuge around the hill of San Roque, inside the municipality of Gibraltar, and created a settlement which would later become the town of San Roque and be granted the arms and constitution of the Spanish City of Gibraltar in Exile.
Now, simply a sentence. Suppressing the mention does not seem to be a middle ground, but your ground. Best regards -- Ecemaml ( talk) 11:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC) PD: I call your attention again about this article being about Gibraltar as a whole, not about Gibraltar since 1704. The destination of the Gibraltar population is relevant for the article of Gibraltar, just in the same way as with the people evacuated in 1940.
Can we get a consensus for "...nearby areas of Spain", as the section is an historical overview? Could all the finer details about where, when, why, how many etc, go in to the very detailed History of Gibraltar? Willdow (Talk) 12:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Agree To both suggestions. Justin talk 12:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Disagree. Given that this overview article has room for events much less noteworthy than San Roque, I don't find any encyclopedic reason to exclude it. Please, Willdow, if you take a look at what sources say (I apologise to the others, as this summary has been repeated like twenty times –actually, I don’t understand how we can keep discussing with this evidence on the table), you can check that ALL of the sources that have been used for the History section DO mention San Roque SPECIFICALLY:
Many of those sources don’t even mention other destinations than San Roque (I suppose that the reason behind is that historians think that San Roque is very noteworthy).
But, is it worthy enough to be in the overview article? Let's take a look at other events in the History section of this overview article about Gibraltar and compare their relative notability vis a vis San Roque, comparing the number of hits in googlebooks.
San Roque: Number of books with the word "Gibraltar" in the title and "San Roque" in the text:
Other events that are currently described in the History section: Number of books with the word "Gibraltar" in the title and a keyword relative to the event in the text:
I think this would be enough evidence to support including San Roque, it being much more notable for historians than at least 9 other events currently (and undisputedly) in the History section, wouldn't it? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 13:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Note: I only say that the article should say "left for San Roque and other nearby areas in Spain", I have already compromised (like Ecemaml said) and will accept not putting all of the detail here.
Can we go back to trying to achieve a consensus? I don't want to get side tracked.
"Consensus is not what everyone agrees to, nor is it the preference of the majority. Consensus results in the best solution that the group can achieve at the time. Remember, the root of "consensus" is "consent". This means that even if parties disagree, there is still overall consent to move forward in order to settle the issue. This requires co-operation among editors with different interests and opinions"
I have proposed that the article remain as it is now. It's an easy solution that we (the group) can achieve at this time. We may not all agree, but we are looking for consent to settle this issue (for now) and move onwards. "...for nearby areas of Spain". Yay or nay? Keeping in mind that they made a settlement in what is now San Roque which is a nearby area of Spain. It subsequently became San Roque. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no historical inaccuracy in stating "...for nearby areas of Spain". Can this be agreed upon to allow us to move on to other matters such as the Governance? San Roque is generously mentioned in relation to Gibraltar in history books, so lets make a big deal of it in History of Gibraltar Willdow (Talk) 14:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
Sorry Willdow but this is a clear example of why this never goes anyway. Time and time again we have the same argument cut'n'pasted and there is no attempt to move forward or address the counter argument. I appreciate your attempt to find an accommodation but really I don't see how some people will ever accept that compromise is not about bludgeoning the other side into submission. Unless the arguments against including mention of San Roque are actually addressed for once, rather than simply restating the position IT MUST BE MENTIONED NOW, NOW, NOW, then I don't see how we can move forward.
Above is a typical example, saying look these events are less notable, they're mentioned. Its purely based on a bad faith presumption and its an attempt to paint other editors as unreasonable. We either stop it now or the stalemate will simply continue. Justin talk 13:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Lets cut the bullshit, no essays, no moaning at/about each other. Lets state our preference and briefly why. Shall we say 50 word limit to avoid this dragging out? Willdow (Talk) 14:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Number 1 with Number 4 as my alternative vote I'd favour the Atama wording, rather than unnecessary detail that requires further explanations we are unable to give in this article. -- Narson ~ Talk • 15:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
For inclusion, yet again: The facts about San Roque are verifiably included in several reputable English-language histories of Gibraltar. No such history has been produced which omits the facts. They are found to be more notable to reputable historians than several points which have been included without controversy. Sorry to repeat, but this doesn't seem to be getting through and it strikes me as fairly decisive. I understand that San Roque was previously more or less uninhabited, a Roman ruin with a hermitage. "Many settled in the ruins of Roman Carteia, modern San Roque." Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
While I'm at it, the phrase "left without further violence is fine, but leaving out the word "further" seems to deny the indisputable violence that followed the actual takeover. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
All's I'm trying to achieve is an ending to a sentence; whether San Roque should or shouldn't be in this sentence. No hidden agenda from me despite my preferring the current text. Can we keep the long winded discussions out of this sub-section and purely focus on consensus of how this sentence should be worded? Willdow (Talk) 15:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Out of 2 and 3, 2 would appear more historically factual. Can we fiddle about with this version until all agree?
"...left Gibraltar without further violence for nearby areas of Spain, most settling in an area later to become San Roque".
I know that's a little long winded, but something along the lines of that? Figures and stats can be left for the history of gib page.
Willdow
(Talk)
15:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
“ | My question is this... Does anyone but Justin object to the inclusion of the text proposed by Richard earlier? I don't ask this because this is a "majority vote", but out of curiosity. Scanning this talk page, I don't see anyone else opposing it. -- Atama頭 18:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC) | ” |
“ | You know, considering how long this has dragged on, maybe it's best to let it go. Consensus is a tricky thing; there's no real metric determining when consensus has been reached. Consensus doesn't mean a majority vote, but it also doesn't mean that everyone has to agree. It is usually somewhere in-between, and when you have a handful of people who agree with one person disagreeing, that's a pretty good consensus right there. Gibnews has accepted the proposal (whether or not he was bludgeoned into it), at least one outside editor who has joined the discussion supports it, and I honestly don't see any new arguments for or against including mention of San Roque. Frankly, I still think that saying that the people who left had "relocated to nearby areas of Spain" would be a decent compromise, but it seems that as good of a consensus as can be expected has been reached here. -- Atama頭 01:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC) | ” |
I don't mind the suggestion Atama mentions too much as a compromise, although it does give the impression that there was a town up the road called San Roque that they moved to. It's been brought to our attention that there was no San Roque at the time in question. Whereas the simple "nearby areas of Spain" skirts around this keeping the sentence short and simple. Willdow (Talk) 17:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
No, I still don't understand how you have come to a conclusion of bad faith. "an attempt to portray anyone opposing the edit of preferential treatment" does not make anything of the sort clear to me. It seems to me that you have merely been vaguely offensive. Could I ask you again to drop the issue, or, if you feel you can't, to explain it more clearly? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 08:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. The trouble here is, I think we've yet to see anyone's real reason for the problem over San Roque. What is the emotive aspect that's the sticking-point about mentioning (or not mentioning) that a bunch of people went from point A to point B? Is it that the choice one way or the other is perceived as giving ground to / argument for / legitimacy to the opposing side? It might make things a lot more straightforward if these worries were on the table rather than arguing round and round over surface rationalisations (space, detail, the topic being peripheral, etc etc) that are obviously not what this is actually about, else it wouldn't be such a huge deal. Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 20:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to mention the elephant in the room - the dictator Franco founded his claim to Gibraltar partly on the assertion that San Roque was the "real" Gibraltar because that's where many former inhabitants of Gibraltar settled. The Spanish claim to Gibraltar is ongoing. As a result, mentioning San Roque is extremely annoying to many people who dislike either Franco or the Spanish claim or both. (I'm in both groups but merely find the 21st-century claim ridiculous to the point of being self-defeating.) Without this issue, which as I say I find merely laughable, I don't think we'd have much trouble agreeing. With it, any attempt to mention an uncontroversial fact seems to bring accusations of nationalist bias. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
"Seems writing articles comes secondary to using wikipedia to advance Spain's illogical irrendentist claim to Gibraltar. Its shameful that a supposedly democratic Spain should be carrying on that Fascist Fuck Franco's crusade but lets be honest about it, its macho fucking Spanish pride." http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Justin_A_Kuntz&diff=prev&oldid=343048205
Seeing as the elephant in the room has been raised, didn't think it would take long. Can we note that an inability to consider a simple compromise by certain parties results from that. Justin talk 15:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Richard, just before you violated WP:TPG to dredge this up again, I'd just sent Gordon a detailed email setting out my concerns and was about to note that I'd sent an email to him setting them out. What is interesting comparing the two responses is that I focused on why I didn't wish to move, you instead have chosen to villify me as an individual and blame me for everything. I really do object to you bringing something up that was said in the heat of the moment and at a time when I was extremely upset by you forcing it into the article over my objections and using tag team edit warring to keep it there. This is a classic example of WP:CPUSH push someone into making a rash statememt, then dredge it up time and time again to paint them as being unreasonable. Trying to avoid bringing nationalism into this Richard but to parade one's nationality I'm half-Spanish so could be expected to have some sympathy with Spain's irredentist claim but don't. Not so sure its hurt feelings getting in the way but the attempt to bully and bludgeon me into submission over an issue instead of reasoning with me might have hurt my feelings. Oh and before I'm blamed for anything else, I was not the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll. Justin talk 10:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC) aka the Evil Scotsman
Seeing as the Elephant in the room has been mentioned, can I just mention the other elephant in the room. Richard has never done me the courtesy of replying to my counter argument. Yes San Roque is mentioned in Reliable Sources, we've already acknowledged that. You acknowledge that San Roque is a peripheral issue to Gibraltar, so is mentioning it in an overview of Gibraltar not giving undue prominence to a peripheral fact? Simple answer please, 50 words or less. Justin talk 15:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
No it isn't. It gives due (minimal) prominence to a fact agreed as notable by the relevant sources. The relevant sources give this fact more notability than many others, and failing some very good reason to omit it, it should go in. I appreciate that you have a strong opinion to the contrary, but you have never explained why this is relevant to the task of achieving consensus on a better encyclopedia. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that's right. It's me one of such editors, Justin (besides by paternity). I'm really fed up of discussing with people with definitely has an agenda (I'm not referring to you). We have here editors that openly claim that only Gibraltarians must be allowed to write in this article. We have here editors with huge conflicts of interests (of course not recognized) that openly say that are "foreign" POVs (which obviously should not be allowed to be here). So, can you explain a little bit more on "tendentious editing"? --
Ecemaml (
talk)
11:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't wish to be rude by striking text out, but I think it would be a lot more constructive to focus on what content in disputed for the timebeing in this section, rather than reverting back to bickering.
Willdow
(Talk)
11:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Justin, please, could you avoid assuming bad faith again and again? Your sentence "...you have to also acknowledge that the motivations of certain editors in pushing for mention of certain topics [..] is motivated by narrow nationalism not a desire to see an improvement to the article." is a personal attack and offensive. Given my background in Gibraltar-related articles that statement make me laugh, but it does not help to discussion. --
Ecemaml (
talk)
11:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure this will please certain people but I'm retiring from this page, thanks to Justin's bullying and unpleasant behaviour both towards me and others. I support mention of San Roque because the sources mention it and anyone is free to use my name in determining whether there is consensus on that. May the force be with you all. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 11:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Err, no he has not.-- English Bobby ( talk) 17:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Seems clear to me that the arguments for/against inclusion will never reach a conclusion. Sorry for hijacking your attempt Willdow. To get back on track with the focus on Content.
4 editors syggested 1 or 4. 1 editor suggested 2 or 3.
Personal preference is for 4, can I suggest we go with number 1 as a compromise that will satisfy no one but leave honour intact all round. Justin talk 08:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
(And no essays please)
Sorry to have to repeat, but "without further violence" may be just acceptable as describing a miserable procession trudging from their homes after a military takeover accompanied by rape, desecration of churches, and mutual murder, leaving out "further" is not.
Of your choices, Willdow, I'd go for "for San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain".
Richard Keatinge (
talk)
10:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Suggestions:
WillDow (Talk) 15:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Don't forget
And to put into perspective:
Number 1 being a compromise suggested by independent 3rd party.
Number 2 a compromise suggested by independent 3rd party addressing the comment the town of San Roque didn't actually exist in 1704.
Number 3 personal preference of Richard Keatinge, Red Hat, Imalbornoz and Cremellera, Ecemaml.
Number 4 personal preference of Gibnews, Justin, Pfainuk, Redcoat10, Gibmetal77 and Apcbg.
I'm also open to suggestions, I'll also point out the previous suggestion if we go with Number 1 there could be a wikilink to San Roque. Justin talk 15:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Another suggestion, Number 1 with a wikilink to a short article dealing with the movements of the refugees, being careful to avoid a content fork. Justin talk 15:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
This isn't a vote, votes don't mean squat as far as consensus goes.
May I interject and just point out that when the RFC was originally proposed, I urged that external opinions should be the only comments allowed as that was what it was for just before it was swamped with tendentious argument. And that if you only allow the votes of "Martians" then its:
I don't include Richard as a "Martian" as he has adopted a partisan position, the edit warring to impose a solution and the way he has mischaracterised my position I don't think you could claim he was objective. If its going to work, no earthling input, full stop. 'cos some of those earthlings will fill this page with tendentious crap the moment they see the vote isn't going their way. So I propose a topic ban on myself, Gibnews, Richard, Red Hat, Ecemaml, Cremellara, JCRB and Imalbornoz with immediate blocks for violating it. I'm happy to let the consensus process decide without my involvement. But I would ask for very strict admin attention to prevent sock and meat puppet participation to stack votes. Gordonofcartoon or Atama to decide when its finished. One final condition, no talk page messages stroking admin egos either. Justin talk 10:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
So far, there is no consensus obviously, but I think I can safely say that we have narrowed it down to two different versions, with both sides set in their ways.
"...left without [further] violence for nearby areas of Spain"
"...left without [further] violence for San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain"
The difference between the two of course is the mention of San Roque.
If no side is to compromise, and choose the other option, can we come up with a compromise, that is, somewhere between the two? For example, if San Roque didn't exist as "San Roque" at the time, can we briefly squeeze in "what was to become San Roque" or "Roman ruins, later San Roque" etc. Also, can we get independent people (never been involved) to look over these points too and add to consensus?
Please don't get sidetracked here. Lets be short, blunt, and to the point. Bollocks to Franco, assume good faith. Keep it short.(I'll try to keep it short and on topic by striking out irrelevant text if that's okay with everyone...) WillDow (Talk) 11:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Go for it Willdow! I'm fairly sure we can get consensus on b**s to Franco, and I don't suspect anyone of acting in bad faith.
For. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Any particular reason why the two alternatives I suggested wouldn't work? For example Number 1 or something similar with a wikilink to a short article dealing with the exodus, being careful to avoid a content fork. San Roque, the town did not exist, the hermitage of Saint Roch existed, the town was founded in 1706 and named after the hermitage. It seems to me a sensible way of dealing with it with than simply mentioning a place that did not yet exist. It would also enable the topic to be explained for example with the fishermen founding Algeciras. Both Algeciras and San Roque were founded by the people who left Gibraltar in 1704. As Gibmetal77 observed, some of them travelled a great deal farther. Justin the Evil Scotman talk 12:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::::If we're going down the route of extreme pedantry, the sources say they established themselves near the hermitage of San Roque, the refugees then went on to found the modern city of San Roque. But it didn't become magically transform into the town of San Roque in day did it? You're still trying to find reasons to say they went to a place that was founded 2 years later. What was the hamlet called by the way?
Justin the Evil Scotman
talk
13:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Q. Could someone actually explain to me why it is so important to mention San Roque that they're constantly finding reasons to villify me for suggesting that it is peripheral information to an overview of Gibraltar?
Justin the Evil Scotman
talk 13:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I think everyone's getting a little sidetracked... Some people are set in stone about having SR put in, some are set in stone about keeping it out. Is there a compromise at all? If no, then this argument will never be resolved. Somebody has to budge.
WillDow
(Talk)
14:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd allowed myself to get pissed off again, with the past being dragged up again. I went away for 5 minutes and kicked the dog so I'm feeling better about it and struck through several comments above. No I'm not set in stone about it not being mentioned and never have been, though I do think its peripheral information. Lets be clear about that.
It does seem however, that those who insist it must be mentioned are set in stone and claiming that sources support it is just an excuse. I have been stubborn for a variety of reasons, good reasons, but its time I think to be the bigger man and be the one to walk away from this utterly ridiculous stalemate. I've always been prepared to budge but that hasn't been reciprocated.
Willdow thank you for your attempt to mediate and for recognising what I had to say had merit. I'd extend the same courtesy to Atama. Richard that you're not suited for the role of a mediator is just about the kindest thing I could say.
Willdow, if you feel that peripheral information should be included I won't oppose you. Probably your best option as other options will be tendentiously argued into the ground. Good luck. Justin the Evil Scotman talk 14:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
How about making the proposed change, we post an announcement here that the change has been made, and then all of us in the "hard core" here promise not to discuss this particular matter any further on this talk page until the end of March? If noone stops by and complains, then we know we have a solution that can stand the test of time, even if it is not unanimous. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Would an admin block for a week the next editor who makes a sniping comment, attempts to bait another editor or rakes up the past. Seems like only a damn hard bitch slap is going to fix the attitudes round here.
Justin the Evil Scotman
talk
13:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
The content of this collapsible box is completely unrelated to this article. |
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Author credit goes to the Red Hat of Pat Ferrick. Shame I hadn't spotted it earlier.....would have been useful. Slainte. Justin talk 10:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
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I am glad to see you're back from your 2 weeks retirement, Justin. Please, stay on topic. Cremallera ( talk) 13:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
The uncited statement After Britain recognised the Franco regime in 1938. . . could maybe be rehashed as De-facto recognition of both the Franco and Republican sides in the late 1930s resulted in two Spanish consulates in Gibraltar. The change is supported by legal authority cited here. The official answer to a parliamentary question (8 Feb 1939) indicates the somewhat unenthusiastic nature of the 'recognition' of Franco. And a very recent analysis emphasises that the great majority of Brits "preferred to rally to the Non-Intervention policy adopted by the Baldwin and Chamberlain governments in relation to the Spanish civil conflict". The present statement gives the very misleading import that Britain was officially pro-fascist. Cheers Bjenks ( talk) 18:12, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
As there is an ARBCOM case pending over Gibraltar pages, I suggest that its a good time for the existing editors to voluntary refrain from making any changes to this page particularly those designed to deliberately provoke edit wars. -- Gibnews ( talk) 15:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Given what I have learned after reading up on the San Roque situation, I find the Gibraltarian people article rather disturbingly skewed. Comments welcome at the talk page there. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 18:54, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
An Arbitration case involving this article has opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 10:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
In no place appear the word "colony" in the last colony of Europe. I understand this is a english encyclopedia and a the pro british point of view is normal. But i think you should say that spain considere the rock of gibraltar a colony and it is supported by UN comittee against colonization.
Sorry for my english (i always try to improve... ) and i desire someone include the point of view of spain (a royal navy base, fiscal paradise and black ecological point in mainland of spain ). Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.214.9.250 ( talk) 11:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Not to mention that Gibraltar is no longer a colony. It became a British Dependent Territory in 1981 and later a British Overseas Territory in 2002. Although it could be argued that the change in denomination made no difference, a new Constitution was granted in 2006. Such new constitution meant a large devolution of powers to the former colony, with made Gibraltar enjoy a huge degree of self-government. Thus, from both a denomination and political organization points of view, Gibraltar is no longer a colony, even if such a denomination is very usual in the Spanish media. Hope it clarifies what we're talking about. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 14:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Cremallera, when i create this section, my main complain was no appear the word "colony" in the last colony in Europe. The english goverment called "colony" to gibraltar, all spanish know that gibraltar is a colony, and in the article "gibraltar" no use this word. I think someone should write about the Point of view of spain,becouse the point of view of the british is "self goverming territory" and silence "non self goverming list UN" —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
150.214.9.249 (
talk)
08:29, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
I'm bringing this up again ( previous discussion here) as there is a fresh perspective on this article now. The sentence on Władysław Sikorski appearing in the WW2 subsection of the history section is to my mind very odd and out of place in this summary history of the territory. I've never even seen this mentioned in a history of Gibraltar. e.g. this book [1] has no mention in its substantial WW2 chapter. Nor does this book, which you can search inside [2] to confirm what I say. If we search Google books for "Sikorski Gibraltar" we don't find any books on Gibraltar itself [3]. A good example of where we do find it is in the Historical Dictionary of Poland [4].
It was entirely coincidental that he died leaving Gibraltar. Yes it may have been a major talking point and the subject of conspiracy theories in Gibraltar to this day, but that kind of topic should not be discussed in a history section. Therefore I suggest this sentence should be removed. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 13:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, very useful. I have chosen the picture that has the most legible English text and put it into the article. See what you think. I haven't managed to put it all into really flowing prose - best of luck. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
While the rest of Europe was cooling, the area around Gibraltar back then "resembled a European Serengeti," Finlayson said. Leopards, hyenas, lynxes, wolves and bears lived among wild cattle, horses, deer, ibexes, oryxes and rhinos — all surrounded by olive trees and stone pines, with partridges and ducks overhead, tortoises in the underbrush and mussels, limpets and other shellfish in the waters.
--this (under history) is a direct quote from Clive Finlayson, and should probably be in quotes. Efreak ( talk) 05:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
All we see of Gibraltar itself in Das Boot a very blurry nighttime silhouette (probably not even actual footage of Gibraltar - at least, looks a bit dodgy, having crossed the Straits myself) and apart from a couple of statements about getting "near to Gibraltar" there is only one real line of dialogue about it - "Gibraltar, where the mildness and beauty of the Mediterranean world meet the force and expansion of the Atlantic realm." Is this really enough to list under Gibraltar in film? The film itself is not about Gibraltar at all, and its inclusion here smacks of trivia. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 00:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
If we are really interested in war incidents concerning Gibraltar, what about the Napoleonic times? Would it not be normal to expect of Spain hold their own, rather than being France's ideal enemy. Then the Spaniards could have said: "you see? You never needed Gibraltar". Could be that Lord Nelson would be allowed to live till the age of 80 or 90. So what is to be said of the Napoleonic times? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.28.194 ( talk) 09:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
The section "Gibraltar in popular culture" consists only in trivial data. Having just read other articles about bigger cities such as Edinburgh, Madrid, Rome, Chicago or New York, after reading this one I felt that it adds very little to the article overall, which is too large already. This being a wiki, I deleted the section. However, I've been reverted twice for vandalism. I'm new to this, but I want to make it clear that I am not trying to vandalise anything. I state my opinion as a mere user of wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.41.201 ( talk) 10:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I created an article Gibraltar in popular culture and moved that section's content there. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 13:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
As civility appears to have returned to this page, perhaps it's time to nominate Gibraltar for FA status? It would need a little work to have it in a state ready for nomination - basically ensuring the manual of style is being followed - reference formats, image layouts etc (unfortunately I think some of the images would have to go - there are too many). The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 11:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
With the return (after threats of prolonged absence) of what I can only see as a WP:DIVA I have to abandon hopes of a Featured Article. An editor who can allude to some sort of apology on the 11th when I find at best "As a matter of disclosure, I said some things in the heat of the moment a few days ago that I regret and apologise publicly and unreservedly for", mixed up with comments such as "You have an agenda and wikipedia is the platform you chose to use; it isn't about writing an encyclopedia. I will never apologise for saying that, because you and I both know its true. I regret some of the things said in the heat of the moment that is all. My intention is to quit, if you wish to follow Red Hat's agenda of making it a block you go right ahead. I bare my buttocks in both of your general directions. Justin talk 15:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC)" I'm very sorry to say that in my judgement, after re-reading through the last three archive files, Justin's incivility and difficulty in getting to the point have derailed reams of discussion to date. I can see no reason why this should not continue indefinitely.
Again I ask for civility, relevant comments, encyclopedic suggested wordings rather than restatements of disagreement, and good sources. With them, we can work through almost any issues. Without them, very little can be achieved. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 22:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
San Roque was imposed on this article, in spite of reasoned objections for its inclusion, argued on the basis of policy and not one of which has ever been rebutted or answered. Instead, it has been included on the basis that was "censorship", well on the basis "When someone complains loudly about censorship, you may be certain they are up to no good.", I wish to reopen that again because I really do object to a solution being imposed by edit warring and avoiding discussion of the argument. I'm opening it up for discussion, if there is to be no discussion then I am simply going to remove it. Justin talk 14:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
To repeat, San Roque is mentioned, ahead of several other details which are uncontroversially in the article, by every reputable English-language historian. That argument achieved consensus, partly because like Atama's suggestion it avoided the historically-dubious issues. Perhaps we could have your arguments again, including any new points, before we change away from what we had managed to thrash out? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 17:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Compromise? No, it was your imposed solution. Which I objected to and which you refused to discuss. You are of course welcome to take it to talk or you can edit war to impose it again.
I await with interest to see the course of action you intend to pursue. Justin talk 15:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Happy to see Atama's compromise proposal until we see an agreement, could someone else please do a revert for me; seeing as 2 editors are reverting to their preferred version rather than a compromise which is neither mine nor theirs. I just want to underline that point. Justin talk 16:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Again, to make it plain I have no objection to the mention of San Roque in the right circumstances. San Roque may be a peripheral issue but in the History of Gibraltar we do have the time and space to devote to it. It may also be worthy of mention in the Disputed Status of Gibraltar. What I really do object to, is the people who mischaracterise my opposition to this edit proposal as "suppressing mention of San Roque at all costs" or "on grounds not acceptable to wikipedia" I have put forward a perfectly acceptable policy based rationale for my disagreement. A perfectly acceptable compromise for an overview article is to avoid mention of peripheral issues and delegate that to the more detailed article. This is within the guidelines of wikipedia for an overview. That compromise suggestion was rejected out of hand by the editors who demand we must mention San Roque in this article. What isn't acceptable grounds for wikipedia are the rationale put forward by JCRB "Some editors try to avoid mentioning San Roque to keep readers of this article in the dark about the original Gibraltarians and how they fled the rock following its occupation." because wikipedia is not a soapbox to advance such an agenda. Nor is it a soapbox to proselytise constantly about "rapings, desecrations, plundering and murders in retaliation" that happened 300 years ago. Because that is simply using emotionally charged language to try and close down the debate and paint the opposing viewpoint as unacceptable. We have wasted too much time and effort to such a peripheral issue, that many times I have thought to simply "let the babies have their chocolate" so to speak. I am utterly fed up with having my position mischaracterised and labelled as "unacceptable" when I have tried to discuss the subject in a reasonable manner and really for me the last straw was having someone who claimed to have set out to be a neutral arbiter to choose to repeat the same baseless allegations made by disruptive editors who are using wikipedia to advance an agenda. The question about when I would find acceptable to mention San Roque in this article are a loaded question. So Richard "When did you stop beating your wife?" I answered that a lot time ago, when it gives due coverage to a fringe issue. I also object to the bad tempered disusssions, largely prompted by the constant bad faith accusations of censoring or suppressing "the truth". I haven't seen one person come up with a valid policy based reason why the argument I put forward is incorrect. I'd be perfectly willing to listen or be swayed by such argument, what I'm not prepared to accept is to be bludgeoned into accepting an edit by reams of tendentious argument and constant bad faith accusations. My position has hardened solely because no one has thought to advance an argument why I'm wrong or mistaken. Neither do I respond well to editors making demands or threats of admin action. So I expect that my objections which are based upon giving undue prominence to what is a fringe issue for the subject of this article are addressed. I do not wish to see accusation of censorship or claims that we have a consensus, because there isn't one and perfectly valid compromises have been rejected out of hand. A civil POV push is still a POV push and appeasement doesn't work. Justin talk 17:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
(PS: Please take your time to read through the below... it will do you much good!)
I see an attempt to remove most of the description of the IRA incident as 'not important' - it was a major international incident which happened in Gibraltar. Three terrorists were shot. The ECHR review ruled on a matter that happened in Gibraltar and removing or trivialising it is wrong. -- Gibnews ( talk) 14:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I feel a positive sense of deja vu, claims of a consensus to be imposed by edit warring to someone's preferred version. I am surprised, not, even though it isn't my preferred version but the compromise first proffered by User:Atama. Justin talk 17:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Just a remark. San Roque was established as a municipality in 1706. San Roque was established as settlement one day after the surrender of Gibraltar. Just for the sake of clarity. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 11:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Seeing as we've imposed the content that the Government of Gibraltar is not directly responsible for internal security. Then surely to fully inform the readers of this article we should make it plain that the appointment of the judiciary is one of the important parts of the separation of powers from the Government. We should also explain how internal security is controlled, how it isn't imposed from London but is the function of the Gibraltar Police Authority and we should be explaining how it works in practise. At the moment the article is a piss-poor compromise telling half the story and leaving the false impression its controlled from London by the British Government.
Seeing as we mention that foreign representation is also the function of the British Government, we should also mention that the Government of Gibraltar is not entirely passive in this respect and where the British Government doesn't represent its interests it has stepped in, such as representing itself at the UN C24. Justin talk 17:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Another edit war has broken out so I've locked the article again (for one week). This seems to happen far too regularly; because page protection is meant to be an absolute last resort, in future any editor reverting the article for anything other than obvious vandalism (definition here), WP:BLP reasons, or to remove copyright infringement, can expect to be blocked with no further warning. EyeSerene talk 08:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Forgot to add: while protection is active, editors can use {{ editprotected}} to request an admin to make consensus edits to the article. EyeSerene talk 08:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Obviously, looking through the archives and ongoing discussions here, there are many things that people disagree about. Can we compile a list here? No arguments. No long explanations because it puts people off reading through it. No baiting. No long discussions on the issue here. Simply, just a list of everything in the article that is disputed and a one line explanation of why. At least then we can see everything that is disputed and go through them one at a time. At the moment it's going back and forth between different issues and it's quite hard to follow everything at once. We could then discuss each one in turn, and try to reach some kind of genuine consensus rather than arguing about whether there's even past consensus, which gets us distracted from the article! Willdow (Talk) 09:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)(This discussion can go on whilst the article is protected so that no off-the-cuff edit warring can take place. Hopefully we can agree to something and be constructive whilst the block is in place...)
# disputed #1 -- (short reason) # disputed #2 -- (short reason) # disputed #3 -- (short reason)
Do we have solid, reliable sources that state most people relocated to San Roque? If yes, San Roque should be very briefly mentioned (San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain, for example), but not over mentioned as, of course, the article is first and foremost about Gibraltar. If there's no rock solid sources, then the "nearby areas of Spain" sounds ok to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willdow ( talk • contribs) 10:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
No, Justin, they are no conflicts in the sources at all. All of them are coherent among them (you're an expert in statistics). The problem is that the census talked about neighbors (head of family) and not inhabitants. Some sources make an equivalence of four people per neighbor (other five or six), but all the sources clearly state that most of the Gibraltar inhabitants settled down in San Roque (or course that if you compare source A in wich 4000 people left Gibraltar with source B in which 6000 people left Gibraltar it may happen that the population settled down in San Roque according to B is larger than the whole Gibraltar population in A, but that's not the point). That's a fact. Of the remaining, other settled down in Algeciras and other in Los Barrios. Talking about "other nearby areas of Spain" suggest a random spread (something that is simply false).
With regard to your middle ground, I definitely agree with you. Our first proposals were a whole paragraph in which it was said:
Most of them took refuge around the hill of San Roque, inside the municipality of Gibraltar, and created a settlement which would later become the town of San Roque and be granted the arms and constitution of the Spanish City of Gibraltar in Exile.
Now, simply a sentence. Suppressing the mention does not seem to be a middle ground, but your ground. Best regards -- Ecemaml ( talk) 11:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC) PD: I call your attention again about this article being about Gibraltar as a whole, not about Gibraltar since 1704. The destination of the Gibraltar population is relevant for the article of Gibraltar, just in the same way as with the people evacuated in 1940.
Can we get a consensus for "...nearby areas of Spain", as the section is an historical overview? Could all the finer details about where, when, why, how many etc, go in to the very detailed History of Gibraltar? Willdow (Talk) 12:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Agree To both suggestions. Justin talk 12:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Disagree. Given that this overview article has room for events much less noteworthy than San Roque, I don't find any encyclopedic reason to exclude it. Please, Willdow, if you take a look at what sources say (I apologise to the others, as this summary has been repeated like twenty times –actually, I don’t understand how we can keep discussing with this evidence on the table), you can check that ALL of the sources that have been used for the History section DO mention San Roque SPECIFICALLY:
Many of those sources don’t even mention other destinations than San Roque (I suppose that the reason behind is that historians think that San Roque is very noteworthy).
But, is it worthy enough to be in the overview article? Let's take a look at other events in the History section of this overview article about Gibraltar and compare their relative notability vis a vis San Roque, comparing the number of hits in googlebooks.
San Roque: Number of books with the word "Gibraltar" in the title and "San Roque" in the text:
Other events that are currently described in the History section: Number of books with the word "Gibraltar" in the title and a keyword relative to the event in the text:
I think this would be enough evidence to support including San Roque, it being much more notable for historians than at least 9 other events currently (and undisputedly) in the History section, wouldn't it? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 13:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Note: I only say that the article should say "left for San Roque and other nearby areas in Spain", I have already compromised (like Ecemaml said) and will accept not putting all of the detail here.
Can we go back to trying to achieve a consensus? I don't want to get side tracked.
"Consensus is not what everyone agrees to, nor is it the preference of the majority. Consensus results in the best solution that the group can achieve at the time. Remember, the root of "consensus" is "consent". This means that even if parties disagree, there is still overall consent to move forward in order to settle the issue. This requires co-operation among editors with different interests and opinions"
I have proposed that the article remain as it is now. It's an easy solution that we (the group) can achieve at this time. We may not all agree, but we are looking for consent to settle this issue (for now) and move onwards. "...for nearby areas of Spain". Yay or nay? Keeping in mind that they made a settlement in what is now San Roque which is a nearby area of Spain. It subsequently became San Roque. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no historical inaccuracy in stating "...for nearby areas of Spain". Can this be agreed upon to allow us to move on to other matters such as the Governance? San Roque is generously mentioned in relation to Gibraltar in history books, so lets make a big deal of it in History of Gibraltar Willdow (Talk) 14:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
Sorry Willdow but this is a clear example of why this never goes anyway. Time and time again we have the same argument cut'n'pasted and there is no attempt to move forward or address the counter argument. I appreciate your attempt to find an accommodation but really I don't see how some people will ever accept that compromise is not about bludgeoning the other side into submission. Unless the arguments against including mention of San Roque are actually addressed for once, rather than simply restating the position IT MUST BE MENTIONED NOW, NOW, NOW, then I don't see how we can move forward.
Above is a typical example, saying look these events are less notable, they're mentioned. Its purely based on a bad faith presumption and its an attempt to paint other editors as unreasonable. We either stop it now or the stalemate will simply continue. Justin talk 13:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Lets cut the bullshit, no essays, no moaning at/about each other. Lets state our preference and briefly why. Shall we say 50 word limit to avoid this dragging out? Willdow (Talk) 14:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Number 1 with Number 4 as my alternative vote I'd favour the Atama wording, rather than unnecessary detail that requires further explanations we are unable to give in this article. -- Narson ~ Talk • 15:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
For inclusion, yet again: The facts about San Roque are verifiably included in several reputable English-language histories of Gibraltar. No such history has been produced which omits the facts. They are found to be more notable to reputable historians than several points which have been included without controversy. Sorry to repeat, but this doesn't seem to be getting through and it strikes me as fairly decisive. I understand that San Roque was previously more or less uninhabited, a Roman ruin with a hermitage. "Many settled in the ruins of Roman Carteia, modern San Roque." Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
While I'm at it, the phrase "left without further violence is fine, but leaving out the word "further" seems to deny the indisputable violence that followed the actual takeover. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
All's I'm trying to achieve is an ending to a sentence; whether San Roque should or shouldn't be in this sentence. No hidden agenda from me despite my preferring the current text. Can we keep the long winded discussions out of this sub-section and purely focus on consensus of how this sentence should be worded? Willdow (Talk) 15:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Out of 2 and 3, 2 would appear more historically factual. Can we fiddle about with this version until all agree?
"...left Gibraltar without further violence for nearby areas of Spain, most settling in an area later to become San Roque".
I know that's a little long winded, but something along the lines of that? Figures and stats can be left for the history of gib page.
Willdow
(Talk)
15:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
“ | My question is this... Does anyone but Justin object to the inclusion of the text proposed by Richard earlier? I don't ask this because this is a "majority vote", but out of curiosity. Scanning this talk page, I don't see anyone else opposing it. -- Atama頭 18:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC) | ” |
“ | You know, considering how long this has dragged on, maybe it's best to let it go. Consensus is a tricky thing; there's no real metric determining when consensus has been reached. Consensus doesn't mean a majority vote, but it also doesn't mean that everyone has to agree. It is usually somewhere in-between, and when you have a handful of people who agree with one person disagreeing, that's a pretty good consensus right there. Gibnews has accepted the proposal (whether or not he was bludgeoned into it), at least one outside editor who has joined the discussion supports it, and I honestly don't see any new arguments for or against including mention of San Roque. Frankly, I still think that saying that the people who left had "relocated to nearby areas of Spain" would be a decent compromise, but it seems that as good of a consensus as can be expected has been reached here. -- Atama頭 01:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC) | ” |
I don't mind the suggestion Atama mentions too much as a compromise, although it does give the impression that there was a town up the road called San Roque that they moved to. It's been brought to our attention that there was no San Roque at the time in question. Whereas the simple "nearby areas of Spain" skirts around this keeping the sentence short and simple. Willdow (Talk) 17:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
No, I still don't understand how you have come to a conclusion of bad faith. "an attempt to portray anyone opposing the edit of preferential treatment" does not make anything of the sort clear to me. It seems to me that you have merely been vaguely offensive. Could I ask you again to drop the issue, or, if you feel you can't, to explain it more clearly? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 08:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. The trouble here is, I think we've yet to see anyone's real reason for the problem over San Roque. What is the emotive aspect that's the sticking-point about mentioning (or not mentioning) that a bunch of people went from point A to point B? Is it that the choice one way or the other is perceived as giving ground to / argument for / legitimacy to the opposing side? It might make things a lot more straightforward if these worries were on the table rather than arguing round and round over surface rationalisations (space, detail, the topic being peripheral, etc etc) that are obviously not what this is actually about, else it wouldn't be such a huge deal. Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 20:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to mention the elephant in the room - the dictator Franco founded his claim to Gibraltar partly on the assertion that San Roque was the "real" Gibraltar because that's where many former inhabitants of Gibraltar settled. The Spanish claim to Gibraltar is ongoing. As a result, mentioning San Roque is extremely annoying to many people who dislike either Franco or the Spanish claim or both. (I'm in both groups but merely find the 21st-century claim ridiculous to the point of being self-defeating.) Without this issue, which as I say I find merely laughable, I don't think we'd have much trouble agreeing. With it, any attempt to mention an uncontroversial fact seems to bring accusations of nationalist bias. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
"Seems writing articles comes secondary to using wikipedia to advance Spain's illogical irrendentist claim to Gibraltar. Its shameful that a supposedly democratic Spain should be carrying on that Fascist Fuck Franco's crusade but lets be honest about it, its macho fucking Spanish pride." http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Justin_A_Kuntz&diff=prev&oldid=343048205
Seeing as the elephant in the room has been raised, didn't think it would take long. Can we note that an inability to consider a simple compromise by certain parties results from that. Justin talk 15:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Richard, just before you violated WP:TPG to dredge this up again, I'd just sent Gordon a detailed email setting out my concerns and was about to note that I'd sent an email to him setting them out. What is interesting comparing the two responses is that I focused on why I didn't wish to move, you instead have chosen to villify me as an individual and blame me for everything. I really do object to you bringing something up that was said in the heat of the moment and at a time when I was extremely upset by you forcing it into the article over my objections and using tag team edit warring to keep it there. This is a classic example of WP:CPUSH push someone into making a rash statememt, then dredge it up time and time again to paint them as being unreasonable. Trying to avoid bringing nationalism into this Richard but to parade one's nationality I'm half-Spanish so could be expected to have some sympathy with Spain's irredentist claim but don't. Not so sure its hurt feelings getting in the way but the attempt to bully and bludgeon me into submission over an issue instead of reasoning with me might have hurt my feelings. Oh and before I'm blamed for anything else, I was not the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll. Justin talk 10:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC) aka the Evil Scotsman
Seeing as the Elephant in the room has been mentioned, can I just mention the other elephant in the room. Richard has never done me the courtesy of replying to my counter argument. Yes San Roque is mentioned in Reliable Sources, we've already acknowledged that. You acknowledge that San Roque is a peripheral issue to Gibraltar, so is mentioning it in an overview of Gibraltar not giving undue prominence to a peripheral fact? Simple answer please, 50 words or less. Justin talk 15:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
No it isn't. It gives due (minimal) prominence to a fact agreed as notable by the relevant sources. The relevant sources give this fact more notability than many others, and failing some very good reason to omit it, it should go in. I appreciate that you have a strong opinion to the contrary, but you have never explained why this is relevant to the task of achieving consensus on a better encyclopedia. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that's right. It's me one of such editors, Justin (besides by paternity). I'm really fed up of discussing with people with definitely has an agenda (I'm not referring to you). We have here editors that openly claim that only Gibraltarians must be allowed to write in this article. We have here editors with huge conflicts of interests (of course not recognized) that openly say that are "foreign" POVs (which obviously should not be allowed to be here). So, can you explain a little bit more on "tendentious editing"? --
Ecemaml (
talk)
11:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't wish to be rude by striking text out, but I think it would be a lot more constructive to focus on what content in disputed for the timebeing in this section, rather than reverting back to bickering.
Willdow
(Talk)
11:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Justin, please, could you avoid assuming bad faith again and again? Your sentence "...you have to also acknowledge that the motivations of certain editors in pushing for mention of certain topics [..] is motivated by narrow nationalism not a desire to see an improvement to the article." is a personal attack and offensive. Given my background in Gibraltar-related articles that statement make me laugh, but it does not help to discussion. --
Ecemaml (
talk)
11:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure this will please certain people but I'm retiring from this page, thanks to Justin's bullying and unpleasant behaviour both towards me and others. I support mention of San Roque because the sources mention it and anyone is free to use my name in determining whether there is consensus on that. May the force be with you all. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 11:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Err, no he has not.-- English Bobby ( talk) 17:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Seems clear to me that the arguments for/against inclusion will never reach a conclusion. Sorry for hijacking your attempt Willdow. To get back on track with the focus on Content.
4 editors syggested 1 or 4. 1 editor suggested 2 or 3.
Personal preference is for 4, can I suggest we go with number 1 as a compromise that will satisfy no one but leave honour intact all round. Justin talk 08:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
(And no essays please)
Sorry to have to repeat, but "without further violence" may be just acceptable as describing a miserable procession trudging from their homes after a military takeover accompanied by rape, desecration of churches, and mutual murder, leaving out "further" is not.
Of your choices, Willdow, I'd go for "for San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain".
Richard Keatinge (
talk)
10:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Suggestions:
WillDow (Talk) 15:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Don't forget
And to put into perspective:
Number 1 being a compromise suggested by independent 3rd party.
Number 2 a compromise suggested by independent 3rd party addressing the comment the town of San Roque didn't actually exist in 1704.
Number 3 personal preference of Richard Keatinge, Red Hat, Imalbornoz and Cremellera, Ecemaml.
Number 4 personal preference of Gibnews, Justin, Pfainuk, Redcoat10, Gibmetal77 and Apcbg.
I'm also open to suggestions, I'll also point out the previous suggestion if we go with Number 1 there could be a wikilink to San Roque. Justin talk 15:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Another suggestion, Number 1 with a wikilink to a short article dealing with the movements of the refugees, being careful to avoid a content fork. Justin talk 15:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
This isn't a vote, votes don't mean squat as far as consensus goes.
May I interject and just point out that when the RFC was originally proposed, I urged that external opinions should be the only comments allowed as that was what it was for just before it was swamped with tendentious argument. And that if you only allow the votes of "Martians" then its:
I don't include Richard as a "Martian" as he has adopted a partisan position, the edit warring to impose a solution and the way he has mischaracterised my position I don't think you could claim he was objective. If its going to work, no earthling input, full stop. 'cos some of those earthlings will fill this page with tendentious crap the moment they see the vote isn't going their way. So I propose a topic ban on myself, Gibnews, Richard, Red Hat, Ecemaml, Cremellara, JCRB and Imalbornoz with immediate blocks for violating it. I'm happy to let the consensus process decide without my involvement. But I would ask for very strict admin attention to prevent sock and meat puppet participation to stack votes. Gordonofcartoon or Atama to decide when its finished. One final condition, no talk page messages stroking admin egos either. Justin talk 10:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
So far, there is no consensus obviously, but I think I can safely say that we have narrowed it down to two different versions, with both sides set in their ways.
"...left without [further] violence for nearby areas of Spain"
"...left without [further] violence for San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain"
The difference between the two of course is the mention of San Roque.
If no side is to compromise, and choose the other option, can we come up with a compromise, that is, somewhere between the two? For example, if San Roque didn't exist as "San Roque" at the time, can we briefly squeeze in "what was to become San Roque" or "Roman ruins, later San Roque" etc. Also, can we get independent people (never been involved) to look over these points too and add to consensus?
Please don't get sidetracked here. Lets be short, blunt, and to the point. Bollocks to Franco, assume good faith. Keep it short.(I'll try to keep it short and on topic by striking out irrelevant text if that's okay with everyone...) WillDow (Talk) 11:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Go for it Willdow! I'm fairly sure we can get consensus on b**s to Franco, and I don't suspect anyone of acting in bad faith.
For. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Any particular reason why the two alternatives I suggested wouldn't work? For example Number 1 or something similar with a wikilink to a short article dealing with the exodus, being careful to avoid a content fork. San Roque, the town did not exist, the hermitage of Saint Roch existed, the town was founded in 1706 and named after the hermitage. It seems to me a sensible way of dealing with it with than simply mentioning a place that did not yet exist. It would also enable the topic to be explained for example with the fishermen founding Algeciras. Both Algeciras and San Roque were founded by the people who left Gibraltar in 1704. As Gibmetal77 observed, some of them travelled a great deal farther. Justin the Evil Scotman talk 12:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::::If we're going down the route of extreme pedantry, the sources say they established themselves near the hermitage of San Roque, the refugees then went on to found the modern city of San Roque. But it didn't become magically transform into the town of San Roque in day did it? You're still trying to find reasons to say they went to a place that was founded 2 years later. What was the hamlet called by the way?
Justin the Evil Scotman
talk
13:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Q. Could someone actually explain to me why it is so important to mention San Roque that they're constantly finding reasons to villify me for suggesting that it is peripheral information to an overview of Gibraltar?
Justin the Evil Scotman
talk 13:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I think everyone's getting a little sidetracked... Some people are set in stone about having SR put in, some are set in stone about keeping it out. Is there a compromise at all? If no, then this argument will never be resolved. Somebody has to budge.
WillDow
(Talk)
14:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd allowed myself to get pissed off again, with the past being dragged up again. I went away for 5 minutes and kicked the dog so I'm feeling better about it and struck through several comments above. No I'm not set in stone about it not being mentioned and never have been, though I do think its peripheral information. Lets be clear about that.
It does seem however, that those who insist it must be mentioned are set in stone and claiming that sources support it is just an excuse. I have been stubborn for a variety of reasons, good reasons, but its time I think to be the bigger man and be the one to walk away from this utterly ridiculous stalemate. I've always been prepared to budge but that hasn't been reciprocated.
Willdow thank you for your attempt to mediate and for recognising what I had to say had merit. I'd extend the same courtesy to Atama. Richard that you're not suited for the role of a mediator is just about the kindest thing I could say.
Willdow, if you feel that peripheral information should be included I won't oppose you. Probably your best option as other options will be tendentiously argued into the ground. Good luck. Justin the Evil Scotman talk 14:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
How about making the proposed change, we post an announcement here that the change has been made, and then all of us in the "hard core" here promise not to discuss this particular matter any further on this talk page until the end of March? If noone stops by and complains, then we know we have a solution that can stand the test of time, even if it is not unanimous. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Would an admin block for a week the next editor who makes a sniping comment, attempts to bait another editor or rakes up the past. Seems like only a damn hard bitch slap is going to fix the attitudes round here.
Justin the Evil Scotman
talk
13:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
The content of this collapsible box is completely unrelated to this article. |
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Author credit goes to the Red Hat of Pat Ferrick. Shame I hadn't spotted it earlier.....would have been useful. Slainte. Justin talk 10:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
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I am glad to see you're back from your 2 weeks retirement, Justin. Please, stay on topic. Cremallera ( talk) 13:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
The uncited statement After Britain recognised the Franco regime in 1938. . . could maybe be rehashed as De-facto recognition of both the Franco and Republican sides in the late 1930s resulted in two Spanish consulates in Gibraltar. The change is supported by legal authority cited here. The official answer to a parliamentary question (8 Feb 1939) indicates the somewhat unenthusiastic nature of the 'recognition' of Franco. And a very recent analysis emphasises that the great majority of Brits "preferred to rally to the Non-Intervention policy adopted by the Baldwin and Chamberlain governments in relation to the Spanish civil conflict". The present statement gives the very misleading import that Britain was officially pro-fascist. Cheers Bjenks ( talk) 18:12, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
As there is an ARBCOM case pending over Gibraltar pages, I suggest that its a good time for the existing editors to voluntary refrain from making any changes to this page particularly those designed to deliberately provoke edit wars. -- Gibnews ( talk) 15:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Given what I have learned after reading up on the San Roque situation, I find the Gibraltarian people article rather disturbingly skewed. Comments welcome at the talk page there. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 18:54, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
An Arbitration case involving this article has opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 10:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
In no place appear the word "colony" in the last colony of Europe. I understand this is a english encyclopedia and a the pro british point of view is normal. But i think you should say that spain considere the rock of gibraltar a colony and it is supported by UN comittee against colonization.
Sorry for my english (i always try to improve... ) and i desire someone include the point of view of spain (a royal navy base, fiscal paradise and black ecological point in mainland of spain ). Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.214.9.250 ( talk) 11:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Not to mention that Gibraltar is no longer a colony. It became a British Dependent Territory in 1981 and later a British Overseas Territory in 2002. Although it could be argued that the change in denomination made no difference, a new Constitution was granted in 2006. Such new constitution meant a large devolution of powers to the former colony, with made Gibraltar enjoy a huge degree of self-government. Thus, from both a denomination and political organization points of view, Gibraltar is no longer a colony, even if such a denomination is very usual in the Spanish media. Hope it clarifies what we're talking about. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 14:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Cremallera, when i create this section, my main complain was no appear the word "colony" in the last colony in Europe. The english goverment called "colony" to gibraltar, all spanish know that gibraltar is a colony, and in the article "gibraltar" no use this word. I think someone should write about the Point of view of spain,becouse the point of view of the british is "self goverming territory" and silence "non self goverming list UN" —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
150.214.9.249 (
talk)
08:29, 13 May 2010 (UTC)