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Is this title used in English historiography? Further, wouldn't bench ghetto be a better translation of ghetto ławkowe?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Transliteration is enough. We do not translate slogans from another language - unless the expression already exists in the naitive language.
Since it has been shown that the term is used in English sources, and is usually translated, I'd suggest moving the article to either bench ghetto (more literal translation) or ghetto benches (less correct, but for some reason more widely used).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 00:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to remind people that after Hitler finished with the he planned to do the same with the rest of the Slavs - including the Poles. So maybe we need the following article: Polski ławkowe - that where the Poles would sit when still admitted into German Nazi universities - to keep the Nazis "uncontaminated" by Slavik presence. -- Ludvikus 18:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Jews hate Poles more than they hate Germans. That's all there is to say about this article.
There are some related articles: Education in Poland during WWII, Education in Nazi Germany. I am not familiar with the term polski ławkowe, it seems gramatically incorrect.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Please avoid undiscussed moves and rewrites in such controversial issues. This article is about ghetto ławkowe, not antisemitism in Poland. We are not discussing antisemitism by country; see also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland, and think why there is no article on Anti-Semitism in Germany or Anti-Semitism in Russia, for example. Hence, object to move to Polish antisemitism.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to a separate article on any notable topic if it is written encyclopedically, carefully, in good faith and academic style rather than to make a point or grind an ax. It is easy to see which is the case from the article's onset. If anyone is willing write such articles, I would have no a priori objections. But if such articles are created in the nonsense Digwuren's ax-grinding style of Soviet occupations of THIS and THAT, it would be another story. -- Irpen 18:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Ghetto benches indeed was significant event in the history of Jews in Poland. But renaming it to the Polish antisemitism would be a stretch. Although it would be very educational to have an article on apologetics of persecutions of Jews and Holocaust denial in Polish historiography, but as this article does not exist yet to call new article on this subject Polish historiography would not be quite fair, despite that similar examples show what some areas of Wiki is not about fairness. M0RD00R 21:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I guess I just have to accept that Wiki classifications of AS by country are forbidden.
I remember reading something that there were attempts to put Ukrainian students in such ghettos. Perhaps somebody can find a ref for that.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Why are you forcing a translation of Polish "shit" into English where it does not exist - and your translation is broken English which is incomprehensible to an English speaker? -- Ludvikus 19:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
None of the English language translations provided here reflect the actual meaning of the Polish phrase “Getto ławkowe” because of our linguistic differences. “Ławka” (as in w “ławka w klasie, w auli”) is not just a “bench” (a long seat [3])” known in English. “Four types of furniture [are] found to be in use in classrooms: sled desks, chair with arm tablet, table with chair and table with bench.” [4] The most accurate English term is offered by The Jewish Journal of Sociology published by World Jewish Congress. That is the "ghetto desk", [5] though NOT “a desk in the ghetto” of course, but rather a “ghetto desk in a classroom”. Btw, “ghetto bench” or a "Ghetto-bp" [6] is a type of workout equipment used for body building. Don't be misled by an avalanche of inaccurate translations from Polish featured online. -- Poeticbent talk 22:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
What's the Polish title of this organization? Without it, its hard to verify its existence, as there are probably several translations of the original Polish name, and this doesn't seem to be very useful.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Could someone elaborate on this one? Even if from my own experience here in Wiki I know how the scheme usually works, like for example in Kielce pogrom case "Jews were persecuted because they were communists" > they were persecuted by some outside force - evil barbarian neighbors, "Communists" (and "Communists were Jews") therefore > "Jews persecuted Jews" and no one (except the Jews themselves of cause) is to blame, but still I wonder how come 20 years after gaining the independence sovereign Polish state still was implementing Russian policy. M0RD00R 22:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I think I need to remind - if not inform - our non- American editors that this seating practice falls under the well-known phenomena of racial or ethnic segregation. -- Ludvikus 12:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
This needs spliting into two parts - beginning with pre-independent, or Poland within the Russian Empire. -- Ludvikus 12:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I am modifying this:
The only relevant lead-worthy part here is that the system was not terminated by Polish authorities but rather collapsed along with Poland and its education. Nazi destruction of Poland's, or any other, Jewish community is not the subject of this article. We don't and should not throw all issues, no matter how important overall, to every Wikipedia article. This article is about a narrow issue: discrimination of Jews through segregation in Polish education. While referring to an overall anti-Semitism of the interwar Poland may be warranted, this has nothing to do with Nazi policies and, obviously, cannot be compared to the latter. Let's keep the articles focused. Antisemitism in Poland is a notable topic but if one wants to study present it in detail, this should be done in a dedicated article rather than in the article about a narrow aspect of it.
As for the international reaction, until we have a ref that it was indeed widespread, let's just mention that there was a reaction since this is confirmed by sources. -- Irpen 00:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Ludvikus, please tone down your attitude a little. To the topic now. Ghetto benches were the feature of the Polish educational system in end-1930s. With the collapse of Poland, the Polish educational system seized to exist. There were no Polish universities, there were no benches in Polish universities, including the benches for Jews. In the Soviet part the Universities were soon reopened as the Soviet institutions. As Internationalism was an official Soviet ideology, there was hardly any anti-Jewish policies in the pre-war USSR. Actually, the Soviet takeover opened the doors into the Universities for non-Poles (Ukrainians, Belarusians and Jews) much wider than they were in the nationalist interwar Poland. Soviets introduced had their own antisemitic policies, including in education, but at a much later time and this is not the subject of this article. The main thing though, is that Ghetto benches was a a segregation within the Polish educational system that ended with the end of that system. There was no Polish education in partitioned Poland. The horrible future that awaited the Jews in the Germany-controlled Poland in the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators is undisputable. But this is not the subject of the article about the the segregation in the Polish education.
I agree that the issues you keep reinserting deserve to be covered in Wikipedia. But they are off-topic in this article. -- Irpen 03:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I cannot understand the persistent concealment (by editing or reversion) in an article about Segregation of the fact that that segregation ended because there were no longer any Jews left to segregate. What is with you guys? Where is your logic? The Question is simple, really. How did Ghetto benches disappear? They disappeared not because the Polish authorities decided (like the Americans in the 1960s) "that separate is not equal" ( Brown vs. Board of Education). But because there was no longer any need for them - since the Nazis had eliminated the Jews. -- Ludvikus 05:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust template does not belong here and it is not in the article. The Antisemitism template belongs here all right. -- Irpen 06:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the fact that Poland did not find this practice unjust and worthy to be banned is important and needs to be said. This, however, has nothing to do with Nazis or the final solution. Nazi Holocaust and Polish antisemitism are different issues and needn't be mixed. Overall, I strongly suggest that you calm down. -- Irpen 06:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The fact that the benches disappeared because the Nazis closed down Polish school system is obvious. Polish government didn't have the chance to ban the segregation; whether and when it would have done so w/out WWII it's an open question, but the fact is that the segregation was not reintroduced after WWII.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
One American who fell victim to the Jewish quota was late physicist and Nobel laureate Richard P. Feynman, who was turned away from Columbia College in the 1930s and went to MIT instead.
In Hungary, for example, 5,000 Jewish youngsters (including Edward Teller) left the country after the introduction of Numerus Clausus. [Thats the (Jewish) father of the H-bomb. - Ludvikus interjection]
Zbyslaw Poplawski in his book “Dzieje Politechniki Lwowskiej 1844-1945”, Wroclaw 1992. (“History of the Lwow Technical University”, Wroclaw 1992) writes about incidents that took place at the school in the Soviet years (1939-1941). He writes that in November of 1939 there was a meeting at the school, during which Communist Jewish activists recognized pre-war Polish anti-Semites from college. They pointed these persons to NKVD officers, all four were taken out, beaten and then shot. Their names were: Henryk Rozakolski and Jan Plonczak from the student Bratniak organization, Ludwik Placzek and Jozef Obrocki. The meeting was terminated, shocked people left the hall walking past their killed collegaues. Poplawski also writes that Jews were systematically taking revenge for the ghetto bench system. Harassed were professor Eberman from the combustion engines department, and engineers Jerzy Wegierski and Zbigniew Budzianowski. In 1940 a lecturer of sculpture, Jan Nalborczyk was killed for pre-war excesses.
To avoid questions - Zbyslaw Poplawski PhD died in Krakow on August 1, 2007, he was 95. He was a graduate of the Lwow Technical College, also a member of the Polish Academy of Sciences
more information about the Lwow Technical: http://www.lwow.com.pl/politechnika/politechnika2.html#5
IMHO this information could be useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tymek ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Important observation as to what happened. I personally regret that Revolutions are often the means of terminating injustice. When a system of law and order breaks down, as in a revolution, what is Justice to one, is Revenge to another. Your observations can be applied to the French Revolution as well. Did the French people take their Revenge on the Aristocracy during the Terror? At any rate, you are reporting important historical facts that should be included. It shows at least some sort of retribution against the perpetrators of the bench system. In the USA racist Governor Wallace was shot and crippled, and confined to a wheel chair. Eventually he recanted, as did Henry Ford for his racist activities. Anyway, these facts (you state) are clearly relevant to the Encyclopedia. So you should put them in. Best, -- Ludvikus 19:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Instead of avoiding POV words such as few or many some users tend to push their POV at all costs. Words like this have no place in the lead, but if you insist on putting "many", referenced "few" also should be present. Philosophical question - if so "many" Poles protested Racial segregation, why then ghetto benches were implemented? Maybe because "many many more" Poles there quite happy about them. M0RD00R 19:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
If Max Bodenheimer would had his way though then indeed one side would be privilaged over the other and not exactly the Poles. At least that is what I read in "Germany, Turkey, and Zionism 1897-1918" by Isaiah Friedman page 231. Roots of animosity between Poles and Jews are many, but the main point of divergence was XIX century and IWW connected to conflict regarding the orientation towards acceptence of being part of Polish nation from Commonwealth definition or strictly being Jewish people. A lot of bad blood was also in part due to conflict between supporting independent Poland in WW1 or victory of German Empire and Austrian Empire and Poland becoming part of them. Mostly Jews prefered to live in multiethnic AH and Germany rather then in Poland as they believed their rights would be more safe in them then in Poland, so it naturally led to conflict with Polish national movement. And of course the Russian mposed Pale of Settlement also led to change in ethnic situation in Polish territories, and such changes always bring conflicts-- Molobo 21:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't anyone need to go to the bathroom? Anyway, before you do, and I have to go shopping, here in Manhattan, to buy many, many, things. Or mabe it's few things? Anyway, before I go, who is the un-named editor referenced above who is so loose with "few", or "many" as observed above? I'll be away - but I shall return to this lively discussion. -- Ludvikus 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
About the Author George Sanford (BA, Bristol; MPhil, PhD, London), Senior Lecturer in Politics, University of Bristol, UK, is a leading academic specialist in Polish and East European Studies. This is his seventh book; he has also published numerous articles and chapters in ten books and commented on Polish affairs for the mass media. Adriana Gozdecka-Sanford (MA, Warsaw), is a Polish-born journalist and author. She published two historical books as well as a novel in Poland. This is her second co-authored publication with Sanford since settling in England in 1977.
So who is Jerzy Jan Lerski? -- Ludvikus 22:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I remember conversations with my age-old father who grew up in central Poland before the war. He came from a provincial town where Jewish and Polish populations were nearly equal in numbers: driving forces in the local economy, competing with each other for scarce resources in times of world-wide depression. Was there anti-Semitism? No less than anti-Polonism, visible by way of pranks of little boys on either side. I can only guess, what Ludvikus’ opinion is on the real minorities living there in Manhattan... -- Poeticbent talk 23:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
As to your claims " I can think of no other city in the world where people for all over the world live together with respect and tolerance for one another"...Well: "An article published in the Haverford College alumni magazine that uses racist stereotypes to describe Greenpoint's Polish community is riling up Polish people across the city." "A recent graduate, David Langlieb, penned a piece for the magazine's "Moved to Speak" column in the fall issue in which he describes Greenpoint as a community with several problems, including "the high density of Polish people infesting its rowhouses." ""It's obvious bigotry when you call people vermin," the chairman of the anti-bigotry committee of the Polish American Congress, Frank Milewski, said. "Reading the article is like coming from a Jurassic park of Ku Klux Klan times and racial ethnic hatred," the consul general of Poland in New York, Krzysztof Kasprzyk, said. He described the article as "pure ethnic slander." "Langlieb described a Greenpoint "of the future" that will be filled with lawyers and investment bankers "after the vermin are gone." The world is complicated and every part of it has its own problems. -- Molobo 14:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Look at footnote/reference #3:
Bench ghetto A form of discrimination against minority students in which they were forced to sit in designated benches of university lecture halls. Polish nationalist groups had demanded that university authorities adopt this policy, and that the parliament introduce the principle of numerus clausus (1923) or numerus nullus (1935). These policies were aimed above all against Jewish students, and, in Lwow, also against Ukrainians. In 1935, the Lwow Polytechnic was the first to introduce a "bench ghetto"; by 1937, most rectors at the other institutions of higher learning had done so as well, a move that had been approved by the Ministry of Religious Faiths and Public Education. Jewish students' indexes (student identification document where grades are also recorded) began to be marked with the word "Jewish". Jewish students protested these policies, along with a few Poles supporting them, by refusing to occupy the places on the benches, choosing to stand during lectures instead. A few professors also showed their support, including the philosopher T. Kotarbinski (1886-1981). (H.W./CM)
Notice the inaccuracy of our editor's work, changing substituting "many" for "few": "Jewish students protested these policies, along with a few Poles supporting them." [Emphasis added]
If there was a proposal to set limits to number of students based on their relative ethnicity precentage among the society-what was the precentage of Polish university students and Jewish students ? If places for Jewish students were to be limited to 10% what was the number subject to reduction before the proposal ? -- Molobo 23:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Per Historical_demographics_of_Poland#Second_Polish_Republic_.281918-1939.29, Jews constituted slightly less then 10% (8.7%). So they were indeed overrepresented at the universities - not that it justifies the ghetto's much (sure, one can draw parallels to the affirmative action, but there is a difference between underlying motivations of political correctness vs. antisemitism, I am afraid).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Best, -- Ludvikus 22:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Based on [13]:
Over 50 "notable Polish professors", the article names prof. Rudnicki. Manfred Kridl, professor of Polish literature in Wilno, ordered the edict instituting the benches to be removed from the official noticeboard. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
You have been removing information about four Poles shot by NKVD, with the inspiration of some Jews from Lwow's Technical University. You claim that it is off-topic. This claim is outrageous, especially when it is written by an editor so keen on counting all Jews killed by Poles during various incidents. Please explain why you keep on removing it, as this sad incident is closely related to the article and stop this practice. Tymek 19:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
What you can or can not figure out it is not business of mine. As long as I know WP:OR still is a policy an this article is not an exempt from it. This source [15] does not even mention ghetto benches. End of story. M0RD00R 13:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
As for those few Jewish murderers of Poles = well, Jews were the most active participants in the murderous Soviet regime, as their actions are responsible for deaths of thousands of Poles either in 1939-1941 or 1944-45. As soon as the tables turned, they were not victims but persecutors.
Are you saying Soviets equal Russians ? Do you want Soviet war crimes changed to Russian war crimes ? "By 1939 Stalin had already purged the Soviet Union of all its Jews in leadership positions." In 1939 Stalin was allied with Nazi Germany, Tymek was talking about post-1941 situation. "What I do not understand is why you do not see the Jews as Soviet citizens" Do you want sentences about Jewish Soviets killed in fighting with anti-Soviet resistance changed to Soviet casualties rather then Jewish ? And an interesting chart, but it if somebody would like to study influence among various ethnic groups a chart detailing distribution among leadership and top positions would be more useful, then just membership.-- Molobo 15:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Now we have the following to deal with:
According to professor Zbysław Popławski, a graduate of the Lwów's Polytechnic and a member of the Polish Academy of Sciences during the Soviet occupation Jewish students took brutal revenge for the ghetto bench system. In the third week of October of 1939 there was a student meeting with NKVD in which Jewish activists pointed out four Polish students, taken out and shot by NKVD officers on the spot.
I do not wish any disrespect to the Polish people, or any Polish Wikipedian in particular. However, the logic of this argument goes like this:
(1) Jesus, a Jew, was accused of violating Jewish law, by Jews, reported to the authorities (the Romans), and the authorites executed him. (2) So the Jews are guilty of killing Christ. (3) So Jews report the Polish criminals to the Soviets, and the Soviets execute the Polish criminals. (4) The Jews, not the Russian Soviets, are guilty of killing the Polish Christ(s).
I will refrain from identifying the editor who is responsible for this argument.
Mimo uruchomienia Uczelni w 1939 r. i mimo pierwszych brutalnych interwencji w dotychczasowe struktury społeczności akademickiej, na Politechnice nie nastąpiło uspokojenie, trwały dalsze porachunki ideologiczne. Głównie Żydzi okrutnie mścili się za getto ławkowe i inne demonstracje antysemickie części młodzieży studenckiej, zwłaszcza w następujących katedrach: silników spalinowych u nieobecnego już prof. EBERMANA, którego trudno było podejrzewać o antysemityzm, w obu katedrach budowy mostów i z tego powodu usunięci zostali z uczelni asystenci inż. JERZY WĘGIERSKI z katedry prof. STANISŁAWA BRZOZOWSKIEGO oraz inż. ZBIGNIEW BUDZIANOWSKI z katedry prof. KURYŁŁY
That's it. Source only mentions that certain academic staff was fired in connection with ghetto benches and other antisemitic excesses. So everything else if off-topic and WP:OR. Still we have no sources linking deaths of four antisemites and ghetto benches. M0RD00R 19:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not directly relevant here, but in view of the above, regarding the year 1941, please check out this source that came out six years ago: [22] which begins as follows:
May. 28, 2001 WARSAW, May 28, 01 (CWNews.com) - Poland's Catholic bishops on Sunday sought forgiveness from God and Jews for wrongs committed by Catholics against Jews during World War II, especially the 1941 massacre of Jews in northeastern Poland that had until recently been blamed on the Nazis. Cardinal Jozef Glemp of Warsaw led about 100 bishops in the ceremony in which they sought forgiveness on behalf of the country's Catholics. "We want, as pastors of the Church in Poland, to stand in truth before God and people, but mainly before our Jewish brothers and sisters, referring with regret and repentance to the crime that in July 1941 took place in Jedwabne and in other places," Bishop Stanislaw Gadecki said in the introduction Sunday. . . .
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 23:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I've translated the following passage in order to show M0RD00R's initial manipulation in the closing paragraph of this article: Głównie Żydzi okrutnie mścili się za getto ławkowe i inne demonstracje antysemickie części młodzieży studenckiej, zwłaszcza w następujących katedrach: silników spalinowych u nieobecnego już prof. EBERMANA, którego trudno było podejrzewać o antysemityzm
"Mostly Jews took cruel vengeance for the desk ghetto system and other anti-Semitic demonstrations of the segment of student youth especially in the following departments: Internal combustion engines under already absent prof. Eberman, whom it would have been hard to suspect of anti-Semitism..." (perhaps because he might have been Jewish?)
However, following is the part of the same Polish paragraph omitted by M0RD00R altogether.
Doszukiwanie się winnych trwało cały czas. W roku 1940 aresztowano i zakatowano w więzieniu artystę-rzeźbiarza JANA NALBORCZYKA, długoletniego docenta modelowania na Wydziale Architektonicznym. Niezależnie od tego trwały aresztowania i skazywania na tle politycznym i to do ostatniej chwili pobytu władz sowieckich.
The search for the guilty continued all the time. In 1940 sculptor Jan Naborczyk, the long-standing assistant professor of modeling at the Architectural department, was arrested and bludgeoned in prison. Aside from it, the arrests and political convictions lasted till the last moment of the presence of the Soviet authorities.
Btw, since when using two different sources in order to support a critical paragraph is suddenly called WP:SYNTH? Both sources were equally valid, though didn't meet M0RD00R's WP:IDONTLIKEIT standard reinforced by his WP:OWN. -- Poeticbent talk 05:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Everything is explained already x times. If you are not bothered to read I could not be bothered to repeat the same obvious facts time and time again. I'd rather spend my time writing new articles. Simple as that. Cheers. M0RD00R 17:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Is this a typo or is there a reason for the period? KosherJava 14:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
As a strong statement of complicity in murder, the shootings allegation needs more than one reference. The single reference is authored by Zbysław Popławski, who appears to be a graduate of a technical school, not a historian, and it also seems to have been published on a commercial website with no academic affiliations. Multiple reliable sources are needed. Novickas 14:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
M. Paul Jewish-Polish Relations in Soviet-Occupied Eastern Poland, 1939-1941, in The Story of Two Shtetls, Brańsk and Ejszyszki, Toronto-Chicago 1998, v. 2, p. 207 Xx236 ( talk) 15:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Move: Bench ghetto → Ghetto Bench. I ask that you Vote: Keep or Move.
I really do not like where this discussion is going. Why just not stop right there, and discuss things that really matter. See discussion thread started by Novickas right bellow. Cheers. M0RD00R ( talk) 22:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The last paragraph was removed by M0RD00R and restored by Poeticbent. Could the latter explain why that paragraph is relevant to this subject. It uses two references. The second is dead and the first one does not contain the word "getto". If that reference does not specifically mention that the incident was related to bench ghettos, then please move it elsewhere. If the reference does state such a connection, please attribute it to its authors, since it is a strong statement. Novickas ( talk) 17:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Ghetto ławkowe, a Polish language expression which cannot be translated, word for word, directly into the English language, though " ghetto" is the same as in English and "ławkowe" is the adjectival form of our "bench" while the noun singular form of "bench" in Polish is "ławka", the plural being "ławki"(sic). In the Polish (language) "ghetto" is qualified by "bench" which is impossible in English. We can have a "horrible ghetto" but not a "bench or rock ghetto." The closet forced transliteration would be a "benchy ghetto", which does not exist in English, though a "rocky ghetto" does, but makes no sense. The closest translated form requires us to flip the two words to give us, in the singular English form, "ghetto bench", thereby making "bench" the adjective, and "ghetto" the noun, contrary to the Polish language.
"Ghetto ławkowe" refers to the form of segregation in the seating of students
[27].
Ghetto ławkowe ( Polish), Ghetto benches ( English)(the "bench ghetto") citation needed -- Ludvikus ( talk) 01:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
"(the "bench ghetto") citation needed"
I think we're making progress. However, I now wish to raise the issue of the Singular case vs. the Plural. We have at least two source, in the English language which use the Plural. Why, then do we translate the phrase as "Ghetto bench" in the very beginning of the opening pharagraph? I suspect the two-word phrase is an idomatic expression, and our scholars have the plural. So why do we have the singular? Isn't that also Original research even if the translation is ultimately correct. Even if the plural is the correct transliteration, we cannot use that fact. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 23:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the Encyclopedia of Antisemitism (by Levy, cited in the article, and available online, and linked here), "Ghetto benches" means "segregated seating" - so why not use that expression, pray tell? -- Ludvikus ( talk) 01:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The above is a prime example of Original research. [28] -- Ludvikus ( talk) 01:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Ghetto ławkowe (literal translation from Polish: "desk ghetto", [1] or classroom "ghetto benches", "bench ghetto")
It's useless verbosity! I delete, another reverts. What are the different forms of segregation pray tell? -- Ludvikus ( talk) 23:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
1. The second sentence in the statement
Poland's Jewish population was urbanized and constituted up to 50% of intelligentsia, while being only 10% of the total population. This statistical discrepancy was a result of anti-Polish discrimination by the partitioners of Poland against Roman Catholic students.[7
is unsupported by the ref given (which makes no mention of Polish-Jewish disparities), and is dubious. The ref being used is the following Special Sorrows: The Diasporic Imagination of Irish, Polish, and Jewish ... It clearly does not support the statement above regarding a discrepancy with regards to Jews.
2. the consistent insertions in the "AFTERMATH" section of the names of supposed Polish victims of Jews violates too many guidelines to list. It is ridiculously POV, and rather offensive, given that the actual aftermath of this period was the total annihilation of Polish Jewry (which Polish anti-semitism helped lay the groundwork for), NOT retaliation against Poles by Jews. Ironically, Poles themselves fell victim to German institution of ghetto benched against Poles following the invasion of Poland. Boodlesthecat Meow? 18:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I am reverting both of these claims, and they should be discussed here, given how egregiously they violate basic encyclopdic principles, rather than be blindly reverted. Boodlesthecat Meow? 18:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The RFC bot is not working properly - this request has to be manually inserted into the page (it's not there now).
Re #1. The editor(s) who inserted anti-Polish discrimination as a cause of the diaspora's overrepresentation may not be aware that the same situation was present in other parts of the world at the time - see Jewish quota. Including at the elite US universities - see, from the Boston Globe, [29]. But no one seriously suggests anti-WASP discrimination as the cause. There were quotas for both Polish and Jewish sutdents during tsarist times [30] but that doesn't explain the disparity during the 1920s and early 1930s. Those are some reasons why the statement jumps out at a reader and seems unlikely to be referenced by a reliable source. Novickas ( talk) 10:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
The following keeps getting deleted. It is sourced and relevant. Please do not delete without an explanation here:
Polish independence following World War I was accompanied by a wave of pogroms and discrimination against Jews. [2] Boodlesthecat Meow? 18:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Pogroms in Pinsk, Kielce, Lemberg, Lida etc. didn't happen by themselves. It's a simple fact rather than "outlandish and offensive claim" M0RD00R ( talk) 19:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi again, all. I wasn't too clear about what Piotr (and now M0RD00R too) wanted me to look at, Piotr says that it is this section he was mainly concerned about. I mentioned it below, but I have a bit more to say and will be clearer. I don't think the Boddenheimer stuff is acceptable. Nor is the "Polish independence following World War I was accompanied by a wave of pogroms and discrimination against Jews." They just don't have enough to do with the topic of the article, even considered widely. They're OR, SYN, will raise blood pressure and are fattening to everybody's girlish figure.
We come again to the crucial question of what is this article about, to which I add another distinction: (a) ghetto benches considered narrowly - this particular discriminatory measure (b) Discrimination against Jews in education in Poland (wider) (c) Antisemitism in Polish universities, in Polish education (widest). (b) or (c) seem to be reasonable, popular choices. This is something that people are just going to have to think hard about and come to a consensus. What is OR depends on what we decide the article is about, since it is clear that we are using "ghetto benches" a bit figuratively. Changing the title is a possibility. Under (c), but probably not (b), the replacement from the notes that I suggested, the quote from Meltzer -"In fact, ever since the attainment of independence, the universities in Poland had been strongholds of Endejca supporters and centers for anti-semitic agitation.” would be acceptable. Again, I don't see how Boddenheimer or "Polish independence . . .discrimination against Jews " fits in under any reasonable conception. John Z ( talk) 07:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Is this title used in English historiography? Further, wouldn't bench ghetto be a better translation of ghetto ławkowe?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Transliteration is enough. We do not translate slogans from another language - unless the expression already exists in the naitive language.
Since it has been shown that the term is used in English sources, and is usually translated, I'd suggest moving the article to either bench ghetto (more literal translation) or ghetto benches (less correct, but for some reason more widely used).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 00:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to remind people that after Hitler finished with the he planned to do the same with the rest of the Slavs - including the Poles. So maybe we need the following article: Polski ławkowe - that where the Poles would sit when still admitted into German Nazi universities - to keep the Nazis "uncontaminated" by Slavik presence. -- Ludvikus 18:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Jews hate Poles more than they hate Germans. That's all there is to say about this article.
There are some related articles: Education in Poland during WWII, Education in Nazi Germany. I am not familiar with the term polski ławkowe, it seems gramatically incorrect.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Please avoid undiscussed moves and rewrites in such controversial issues. This article is about ghetto ławkowe, not antisemitism in Poland. We are not discussing antisemitism by country; see also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland, and think why there is no article on Anti-Semitism in Germany or Anti-Semitism in Russia, for example. Hence, object to move to Polish antisemitism.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to a separate article on any notable topic if it is written encyclopedically, carefully, in good faith and academic style rather than to make a point or grind an ax. It is easy to see which is the case from the article's onset. If anyone is willing write such articles, I would have no a priori objections. But if such articles are created in the nonsense Digwuren's ax-grinding style of Soviet occupations of THIS and THAT, it would be another story. -- Irpen 18:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Ghetto benches indeed was significant event in the history of Jews in Poland. But renaming it to the Polish antisemitism would be a stretch. Although it would be very educational to have an article on apologetics of persecutions of Jews and Holocaust denial in Polish historiography, but as this article does not exist yet to call new article on this subject Polish historiography would not be quite fair, despite that similar examples show what some areas of Wiki is not about fairness. M0RD00R 21:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I guess I just have to accept that Wiki classifications of AS by country are forbidden.
I remember reading something that there were attempts to put Ukrainian students in such ghettos. Perhaps somebody can find a ref for that.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Why are you forcing a translation of Polish "shit" into English where it does not exist - and your translation is broken English which is incomprehensible to an English speaker? -- Ludvikus 19:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
None of the English language translations provided here reflect the actual meaning of the Polish phrase “Getto ławkowe” because of our linguistic differences. “Ławka” (as in w “ławka w klasie, w auli”) is not just a “bench” (a long seat [3])” known in English. “Four types of furniture [are] found to be in use in classrooms: sled desks, chair with arm tablet, table with chair and table with bench.” [4] The most accurate English term is offered by The Jewish Journal of Sociology published by World Jewish Congress. That is the "ghetto desk", [5] though NOT “a desk in the ghetto” of course, but rather a “ghetto desk in a classroom”. Btw, “ghetto bench” or a "Ghetto-bp" [6] is a type of workout equipment used for body building. Don't be misled by an avalanche of inaccurate translations from Polish featured online. -- Poeticbent talk 22:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
What's the Polish title of this organization? Without it, its hard to verify its existence, as there are probably several translations of the original Polish name, and this doesn't seem to be very useful.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Could someone elaborate on this one? Even if from my own experience here in Wiki I know how the scheme usually works, like for example in Kielce pogrom case "Jews were persecuted because they were communists" > they were persecuted by some outside force - evil barbarian neighbors, "Communists" (and "Communists were Jews") therefore > "Jews persecuted Jews" and no one (except the Jews themselves of cause) is to blame, but still I wonder how come 20 years after gaining the independence sovereign Polish state still was implementing Russian policy. M0RD00R 22:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I think I need to remind - if not inform - our non- American editors that this seating practice falls under the well-known phenomena of racial or ethnic segregation. -- Ludvikus 12:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
This needs spliting into two parts - beginning with pre-independent, or Poland within the Russian Empire. -- Ludvikus 12:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I am modifying this:
The only relevant lead-worthy part here is that the system was not terminated by Polish authorities but rather collapsed along with Poland and its education. Nazi destruction of Poland's, or any other, Jewish community is not the subject of this article. We don't and should not throw all issues, no matter how important overall, to every Wikipedia article. This article is about a narrow issue: discrimination of Jews through segregation in Polish education. While referring to an overall anti-Semitism of the interwar Poland may be warranted, this has nothing to do with Nazi policies and, obviously, cannot be compared to the latter. Let's keep the articles focused. Antisemitism in Poland is a notable topic but if one wants to study present it in detail, this should be done in a dedicated article rather than in the article about a narrow aspect of it.
As for the international reaction, until we have a ref that it was indeed widespread, let's just mention that there was a reaction since this is confirmed by sources. -- Irpen 00:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Ludvikus, please tone down your attitude a little. To the topic now. Ghetto benches were the feature of the Polish educational system in end-1930s. With the collapse of Poland, the Polish educational system seized to exist. There were no Polish universities, there were no benches in Polish universities, including the benches for Jews. In the Soviet part the Universities were soon reopened as the Soviet institutions. As Internationalism was an official Soviet ideology, there was hardly any anti-Jewish policies in the pre-war USSR. Actually, the Soviet takeover opened the doors into the Universities for non-Poles (Ukrainians, Belarusians and Jews) much wider than they were in the nationalist interwar Poland. Soviets introduced had their own antisemitic policies, including in education, but at a much later time and this is not the subject of this article. The main thing though, is that Ghetto benches was a a segregation within the Polish educational system that ended with the end of that system. There was no Polish education in partitioned Poland. The horrible future that awaited the Jews in the Germany-controlled Poland in the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators is undisputable. But this is not the subject of the article about the the segregation in the Polish education.
I agree that the issues you keep reinserting deserve to be covered in Wikipedia. But they are off-topic in this article. -- Irpen 03:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I cannot understand the persistent concealment (by editing or reversion) in an article about Segregation of the fact that that segregation ended because there were no longer any Jews left to segregate. What is with you guys? Where is your logic? The Question is simple, really. How did Ghetto benches disappear? They disappeared not because the Polish authorities decided (like the Americans in the 1960s) "that separate is not equal" ( Brown vs. Board of Education). But because there was no longer any need for them - since the Nazis had eliminated the Jews. -- Ludvikus 05:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust template does not belong here and it is not in the article. The Antisemitism template belongs here all right. -- Irpen 06:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the fact that Poland did not find this practice unjust and worthy to be banned is important and needs to be said. This, however, has nothing to do with Nazis or the final solution. Nazi Holocaust and Polish antisemitism are different issues and needn't be mixed. Overall, I strongly suggest that you calm down. -- Irpen 06:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The fact that the benches disappeared because the Nazis closed down Polish school system is obvious. Polish government didn't have the chance to ban the segregation; whether and when it would have done so w/out WWII it's an open question, but the fact is that the segregation was not reintroduced after WWII.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
One American who fell victim to the Jewish quota was late physicist and Nobel laureate Richard P. Feynman, who was turned away from Columbia College in the 1930s and went to MIT instead.
In Hungary, for example, 5,000 Jewish youngsters (including Edward Teller) left the country after the introduction of Numerus Clausus. [Thats the (Jewish) father of the H-bomb. - Ludvikus interjection]
Zbyslaw Poplawski in his book “Dzieje Politechniki Lwowskiej 1844-1945”, Wroclaw 1992. (“History of the Lwow Technical University”, Wroclaw 1992) writes about incidents that took place at the school in the Soviet years (1939-1941). He writes that in November of 1939 there was a meeting at the school, during which Communist Jewish activists recognized pre-war Polish anti-Semites from college. They pointed these persons to NKVD officers, all four were taken out, beaten and then shot. Their names were: Henryk Rozakolski and Jan Plonczak from the student Bratniak organization, Ludwik Placzek and Jozef Obrocki. The meeting was terminated, shocked people left the hall walking past their killed collegaues. Poplawski also writes that Jews were systematically taking revenge for the ghetto bench system. Harassed were professor Eberman from the combustion engines department, and engineers Jerzy Wegierski and Zbigniew Budzianowski. In 1940 a lecturer of sculpture, Jan Nalborczyk was killed for pre-war excesses.
To avoid questions - Zbyslaw Poplawski PhD died in Krakow on August 1, 2007, he was 95. He was a graduate of the Lwow Technical College, also a member of the Polish Academy of Sciences
more information about the Lwow Technical: http://www.lwow.com.pl/politechnika/politechnika2.html#5
IMHO this information could be useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tymek ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Important observation as to what happened. I personally regret that Revolutions are often the means of terminating injustice. When a system of law and order breaks down, as in a revolution, what is Justice to one, is Revenge to another. Your observations can be applied to the French Revolution as well. Did the French people take their Revenge on the Aristocracy during the Terror? At any rate, you are reporting important historical facts that should be included. It shows at least some sort of retribution against the perpetrators of the bench system. In the USA racist Governor Wallace was shot and crippled, and confined to a wheel chair. Eventually he recanted, as did Henry Ford for his racist activities. Anyway, these facts (you state) are clearly relevant to the Encyclopedia. So you should put them in. Best, -- Ludvikus 19:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Instead of avoiding POV words such as few or many some users tend to push their POV at all costs. Words like this have no place in the lead, but if you insist on putting "many", referenced "few" also should be present. Philosophical question - if so "many" Poles protested Racial segregation, why then ghetto benches were implemented? Maybe because "many many more" Poles there quite happy about them. M0RD00R 19:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
If Max Bodenheimer would had his way though then indeed one side would be privilaged over the other and not exactly the Poles. At least that is what I read in "Germany, Turkey, and Zionism 1897-1918" by Isaiah Friedman page 231. Roots of animosity between Poles and Jews are many, but the main point of divergence was XIX century and IWW connected to conflict regarding the orientation towards acceptence of being part of Polish nation from Commonwealth definition or strictly being Jewish people. A lot of bad blood was also in part due to conflict between supporting independent Poland in WW1 or victory of German Empire and Austrian Empire and Poland becoming part of them. Mostly Jews prefered to live in multiethnic AH and Germany rather then in Poland as they believed their rights would be more safe in them then in Poland, so it naturally led to conflict with Polish national movement. And of course the Russian mposed Pale of Settlement also led to change in ethnic situation in Polish territories, and such changes always bring conflicts-- Molobo 21:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't anyone need to go to the bathroom? Anyway, before you do, and I have to go shopping, here in Manhattan, to buy many, many, things. Or mabe it's few things? Anyway, before I go, who is the un-named editor referenced above who is so loose with "few", or "many" as observed above? I'll be away - but I shall return to this lively discussion. -- Ludvikus 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
About the Author George Sanford (BA, Bristol; MPhil, PhD, London), Senior Lecturer in Politics, University of Bristol, UK, is a leading academic specialist in Polish and East European Studies. This is his seventh book; he has also published numerous articles and chapters in ten books and commented on Polish affairs for the mass media. Adriana Gozdecka-Sanford (MA, Warsaw), is a Polish-born journalist and author. She published two historical books as well as a novel in Poland. This is her second co-authored publication with Sanford since settling in England in 1977.
So who is Jerzy Jan Lerski? -- Ludvikus 22:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I remember conversations with my age-old father who grew up in central Poland before the war. He came from a provincial town where Jewish and Polish populations were nearly equal in numbers: driving forces in the local economy, competing with each other for scarce resources in times of world-wide depression. Was there anti-Semitism? No less than anti-Polonism, visible by way of pranks of little boys on either side. I can only guess, what Ludvikus’ opinion is on the real minorities living there in Manhattan... -- Poeticbent talk 23:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
As to your claims " I can think of no other city in the world where people for all over the world live together with respect and tolerance for one another"...Well: "An article published in the Haverford College alumni magazine that uses racist stereotypes to describe Greenpoint's Polish community is riling up Polish people across the city." "A recent graduate, David Langlieb, penned a piece for the magazine's "Moved to Speak" column in the fall issue in which he describes Greenpoint as a community with several problems, including "the high density of Polish people infesting its rowhouses." ""It's obvious bigotry when you call people vermin," the chairman of the anti-bigotry committee of the Polish American Congress, Frank Milewski, said. "Reading the article is like coming from a Jurassic park of Ku Klux Klan times and racial ethnic hatred," the consul general of Poland in New York, Krzysztof Kasprzyk, said. He described the article as "pure ethnic slander." "Langlieb described a Greenpoint "of the future" that will be filled with lawyers and investment bankers "after the vermin are gone." The world is complicated and every part of it has its own problems. -- Molobo 14:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Look at footnote/reference #3:
Bench ghetto A form of discrimination against minority students in which they were forced to sit in designated benches of university lecture halls. Polish nationalist groups had demanded that university authorities adopt this policy, and that the parliament introduce the principle of numerus clausus (1923) or numerus nullus (1935). These policies were aimed above all against Jewish students, and, in Lwow, also against Ukrainians. In 1935, the Lwow Polytechnic was the first to introduce a "bench ghetto"; by 1937, most rectors at the other institutions of higher learning had done so as well, a move that had been approved by the Ministry of Religious Faiths and Public Education. Jewish students' indexes (student identification document where grades are also recorded) began to be marked with the word "Jewish". Jewish students protested these policies, along with a few Poles supporting them, by refusing to occupy the places on the benches, choosing to stand during lectures instead. A few professors also showed their support, including the philosopher T. Kotarbinski (1886-1981). (H.W./CM)
Notice the inaccuracy of our editor's work, changing substituting "many" for "few": "Jewish students protested these policies, along with a few Poles supporting them." [Emphasis added]
If there was a proposal to set limits to number of students based on their relative ethnicity precentage among the society-what was the precentage of Polish university students and Jewish students ? If places for Jewish students were to be limited to 10% what was the number subject to reduction before the proposal ? -- Molobo 23:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Per Historical_demographics_of_Poland#Second_Polish_Republic_.281918-1939.29, Jews constituted slightly less then 10% (8.7%). So they were indeed overrepresented at the universities - not that it justifies the ghetto's much (sure, one can draw parallels to the affirmative action, but there is a difference between underlying motivations of political correctness vs. antisemitism, I am afraid).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Best, -- Ludvikus 22:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Based on [13]:
Over 50 "notable Polish professors", the article names prof. Rudnicki. Manfred Kridl, professor of Polish literature in Wilno, ordered the edict instituting the benches to be removed from the official noticeboard. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
You have been removing information about four Poles shot by NKVD, with the inspiration of some Jews from Lwow's Technical University. You claim that it is off-topic. This claim is outrageous, especially when it is written by an editor so keen on counting all Jews killed by Poles during various incidents. Please explain why you keep on removing it, as this sad incident is closely related to the article and stop this practice. Tymek 19:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
What you can or can not figure out it is not business of mine. As long as I know WP:OR still is a policy an this article is not an exempt from it. This source [15] does not even mention ghetto benches. End of story. M0RD00R 13:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
As for those few Jewish murderers of Poles = well, Jews were the most active participants in the murderous Soviet regime, as their actions are responsible for deaths of thousands of Poles either in 1939-1941 or 1944-45. As soon as the tables turned, they were not victims but persecutors.
Are you saying Soviets equal Russians ? Do you want Soviet war crimes changed to Russian war crimes ? "By 1939 Stalin had already purged the Soviet Union of all its Jews in leadership positions." In 1939 Stalin was allied with Nazi Germany, Tymek was talking about post-1941 situation. "What I do not understand is why you do not see the Jews as Soviet citizens" Do you want sentences about Jewish Soviets killed in fighting with anti-Soviet resistance changed to Soviet casualties rather then Jewish ? And an interesting chart, but it if somebody would like to study influence among various ethnic groups a chart detailing distribution among leadership and top positions would be more useful, then just membership.-- Molobo 15:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Now we have the following to deal with:
According to professor Zbysław Popławski, a graduate of the Lwów's Polytechnic and a member of the Polish Academy of Sciences during the Soviet occupation Jewish students took brutal revenge for the ghetto bench system. In the third week of October of 1939 there was a student meeting with NKVD in which Jewish activists pointed out four Polish students, taken out and shot by NKVD officers on the spot.
I do not wish any disrespect to the Polish people, or any Polish Wikipedian in particular. However, the logic of this argument goes like this:
(1) Jesus, a Jew, was accused of violating Jewish law, by Jews, reported to the authorities (the Romans), and the authorites executed him. (2) So the Jews are guilty of killing Christ. (3) So Jews report the Polish criminals to the Soviets, and the Soviets execute the Polish criminals. (4) The Jews, not the Russian Soviets, are guilty of killing the Polish Christ(s).
I will refrain from identifying the editor who is responsible for this argument.
Mimo uruchomienia Uczelni w 1939 r. i mimo pierwszych brutalnych interwencji w dotychczasowe struktury społeczności akademickiej, na Politechnice nie nastąpiło uspokojenie, trwały dalsze porachunki ideologiczne. Głównie Żydzi okrutnie mścili się za getto ławkowe i inne demonstracje antysemickie części młodzieży studenckiej, zwłaszcza w następujących katedrach: silników spalinowych u nieobecnego już prof. EBERMANA, którego trudno było podejrzewać o antysemityzm, w obu katedrach budowy mostów i z tego powodu usunięci zostali z uczelni asystenci inż. JERZY WĘGIERSKI z katedry prof. STANISŁAWA BRZOZOWSKIEGO oraz inż. ZBIGNIEW BUDZIANOWSKI z katedry prof. KURYŁŁY
That's it. Source only mentions that certain academic staff was fired in connection with ghetto benches and other antisemitic excesses. So everything else if off-topic and WP:OR. Still we have no sources linking deaths of four antisemites and ghetto benches. M0RD00R 19:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not directly relevant here, but in view of the above, regarding the year 1941, please check out this source that came out six years ago: [22] which begins as follows:
May. 28, 2001 WARSAW, May 28, 01 (CWNews.com) - Poland's Catholic bishops on Sunday sought forgiveness from God and Jews for wrongs committed by Catholics against Jews during World War II, especially the 1941 massacre of Jews in northeastern Poland that had until recently been blamed on the Nazis. Cardinal Jozef Glemp of Warsaw led about 100 bishops in the ceremony in which they sought forgiveness on behalf of the country's Catholics. "We want, as pastors of the Church in Poland, to stand in truth before God and people, but mainly before our Jewish brothers and sisters, referring with regret and repentance to the crime that in July 1941 took place in Jedwabne and in other places," Bishop Stanislaw Gadecki said in the introduction Sunday. . . .
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 23:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I've translated the following passage in order to show M0RD00R's initial manipulation in the closing paragraph of this article: Głównie Żydzi okrutnie mścili się za getto ławkowe i inne demonstracje antysemickie części młodzieży studenckiej, zwłaszcza w następujących katedrach: silników spalinowych u nieobecnego już prof. EBERMANA, którego trudno było podejrzewać o antysemityzm
"Mostly Jews took cruel vengeance for the desk ghetto system and other anti-Semitic demonstrations of the segment of student youth especially in the following departments: Internal combustion engines under already absent prof. Eberman, whom it would have been hard to suspect of anti-Semitism..." (perhaps because he might have been Jewish?)
However, following is the part of the same Polish paragraph omitted by M0RD00R altogether.
Doszukiwanie się winnych trwało cały czas. W roku 1940 aresztowano i zakatowano w więzieniu artystę-rzeźbiarza JANA NALBORCZYKA, długoletniego docenta modelowania na Wydziale Architektonicznym. Niezależnie od tego trwały aresztowania i skazywania na tle politycznym i to do ostatniej chwili pobytu władz sowieckich.
The search for the guilty continued all the time. In 1940 sculptor Jan Naborczyk, the long-standing assistant professor of modeling at the Architectural department, was arrested and bludgeoned in prison. Aside from it, the arrests and political convictions lasted till the last moment of the presence of the Soviet authorities.
Btw, since when using two different sources in order to support a critical paragraph is suddenly called WP:SYNTH? Both sources were equally valid, though didn't meet M0RD00R's WP:IDONTLIKEIT standard reinforced by his WP:OWN. -- Poeticbent talk 05:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Everything is explained already x times. If you are not bothered to read I could not be bothered to repeat the same obvious facts time and time again. I'd rather spend my time writing new articles. Simple as that. Cheers. M0RD00R 17:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Is this a typo or is there a reason for the period? KosherJava 14:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
As a strong statement of complicity in murder, the shootings allegation needs more than one reference. The single reference is authored by Zbysław Popławski, who appears to be a graduate of a technical school, not a historian, and it also seems to have been published on a commercial website with no academic affiliations. Multiple reliable sources are needed. Novickas 14:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
M. Paul Jewish-Polish Relations in Soviet-Occupied Eastern Poland, 1939-1941, in The Story of Two Shtetls, Brańsk and Ejszyszki, Toronto-Chicago 1998, v. 2, p. 207 Xx236 ( talk) 15:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Move: Bench ghetto → Ghetto Bench. I ask that you Vote: Keep or Move.
I really do not like where this discussion is going. Why just not stop right there, and discuss things that really matter. See discussion thread started by Novickas right bellow. Cheers. M0RD00R ( talk) 22:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The last paragraph was removed by M0RD00R and restored by Poeticbent. Could the latter explain why that paragraph is relevant to this subject. It uses two references. The second is dead and the first one does not contain the word "getto". If that reference does not specifically mention that the incident was related to bench ghettos, then please move it elsewhere. If the reference does state such a connection, please attribute it to its authors, since it is a strong statement. Novickas ( talk) 17:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Ghetto ławkowe, a Polish language expression which cannot be translated, word for word, directly into the English language, though " ghetto" is the same as in English and "ławkowe" is the adjectival form of our "bench" while the noun singular form of "bench" in Polish is "ławka", the plural being "ławki"(sic). In the Polish (language) "ghetto" is qualified by "bench" which is impossible in English. We can have a "horrible ghetto" but not a "bench or rock ghetto." The closet forced transliteration would be a "benchy ghetto", which does not exist in English, though a "rocky ghetto" does, but makes no sense. The closest translated form requires us to flip the two words to give us, in the singular English form, "ghetto bench", thereby making "bench" the adjective, and "ghetto" the noun, contrary to the Polish language.
"Ghetto ławkowe" refers to the form of segregation in the seating of students
[27].
Ghetto ławkowe ( Polish), Ghetto benches ( English)(the "bench ghetto") citation needed -- Ludvikus ( talk) 01:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
"(the "bench ghetto") citation needed"
I think we're making progress. However, I now wish to raise the issue of the Singular case vs. the Plural. We have at least two source, in the English language which use the Plural. Why, then do we translate the phrase as "Ghetto bench" in the very beginning of the opening pharagraph? I suspect the two-word phrase is an idomatic expression, and our scholars have the plural. So why do we have the singular? Isn't that also Original research even if the translation is ultimately correct. Even if the plural is the correct transliteration, we cannot use that fact. -- Ludvikus ( talk) 23:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the Encyclopedia of Antisemitism (by Levy, cited in the article, and available online, and linked here), "Ghetto benches" means "segregated seating" - so why not use that expression, pray tell? -- Ludvikus ( talk) 01:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The above is a prime example of Original research. [28] -- Ludvikus ( talk) 01:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Ghetto ławkowe (literal translation from Polish: "desk ghetto", [1] or classroom "ghetto benches", "bench ghetto")
It's useless verbosity! I delete, another reverts. What are the different forms of segregation pray tell? -- Ludvikus ( talk) 23:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
1. The second sentence in the statement
Poland's Jewish population was urbanized and constituted up to 50% of intelligentsia, while being only 10% of the total population. This statistical discrepancy was a result of anti-Polish discrimination by the partitioners of Poland against Roman Catholic students.[7
is unsupported by the ref given (which makes no mention of Polish-Jewish disparities), and is dubious. The ref being used is the following Special Sorrows: The Diasporic Imagination of Irish, Polish, and Jewish ... It clearly does not support the statement above regarding a discrepancy with regards to Jews.
2. the consistent insertions in the "AFTERMATH" section of the names of supposed Polish victims of Jews violates too many guidelines to list. It is ridiculously POV, and rather offensive, given that the actual aftermath of this period was the total annihilation of Polish Jewry (which Polish anti-semitism helped lay the groundwork for), NOT retaliation against Poles by Jews. Ironically, Poles themselves fell victim to German institution of ghetto benched against Poles following the invasion of Poland. Boodlesthecat Meow? 18:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I am reverting both of these claims, and they should be discussed here, given how egregiously they violate basic encyclopdic principles, rather than be blindly reverted. Boodlesthecat Meow? 18:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The RFC bot is not working properly - this request has to be manually inserted into the page (it's not there now).
Re #1. The editor(s) who inserted anti-Polish discrimination as a cause of the diaspora's overrepresentation may not be aware that the same situation was present in other parts of the world at the time - see Jewish quota. Including at the elite US universities - see, from the Boston Globe, [29]. But no one seriously suggests anti-WASP discrimination as the cause. There were quotas for both Polish and Jewish sutdents during tsarist times [30] but that doesn't explain the disparity during the 1920s and early 1930s. Those are some reasons why the statement jumps out at a reader and seems unlikely to be referenced by a reliable source. Novickas ( talk) 10:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
The following keeps getting deleted. It is sourced and relevant. Please do not delete without an explanation here:
Polish independence following World War I was accompanied by a wave of pogroms and discrimination against Jews. [2] Boodlesthecat Meow? 18:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Pogroms in Pinsk, Kielce, Lemberg, Lida etc. didn't happen by themselves. It's a simple fact rather than "outlandish and offensive claim" M0RD00R ( talk) 19:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi again, all. I wasn't too clear about what Piotr (and now M0RD00R too) wanted me to look at, Piotr says that it is this section he was mainly concerned about. I mentioned it below, but I have a bit more to say and will be clearer. I don't think the Boddenheimer stuff is acceptable. Nor is the "Polish independence following World War I was accompanied by a wave of pogroms and discrimination against Jews." They just don't have enough to do with the topic of the article, even considered widely. They're OR, SYN, will raise blood pressure and are fattening to everybody's girlish figure.
We come again to the crucial question of what is this article about, to which I add another distinction: (a) ghetto benches considered narrowly - this particular discriminatory measure (b) Discrimination against Jews in education in Poland (wider) (c) Antisemitism in Polish universities, in Polish education (widest). (b) or (c) seem to be reasonable, popular choices. This is something that people are just going to have to think hard about and come to a consensus. What is OR depends on what we decide the article is about, since it is clear that we are using "ghetto benches" a bit figuratively. Changing the title is a possibility. Under (c), but probably not (b), the replacement from the notes that I suggested, the quote from Meltzer -"In fact, ever since the attainment of independence, the universities in Poland had been strongholds of Endejca supporters and centers for anti-semitic agitation.” would be acceptable. Again, I don't see how Boddenheimer or "Polish independence . . .discrimination against Jews " fits in under any reasonable conception. John Z ( talk) 07:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)