This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Germany is today often regarded as an open and tolerant country, although conservative politicians have voiced strong criticism against the Islamic minority after the murder of the Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh, and said the multi-cultural idea have failed. Removed as irrelevant to the article. They say that every day, to everyone who isn't hiding quickly enough. -- Anon.
I started editing the history section, and then I got to the part about Bismarck and the unification of the Second Empire. The pace of the text changes dramatically here. Before I delete a lot of stuff that is true and that is learned in German history courses, I thought maybe it would be good to discuss what is German history, what is Prussian history, and whether the Bismarckian era is so much more important to German history than the Metternichian (Metternich is not mentioned at all, nor is Marx)--and if we go into the history of Prussia, should we not also include the internal politics of the Kingdom of Württemberg, the development of the first constitution of Nassau, etc? I think a lot of this should be moved to other articles and the "Germany" article should present more of a summary. I just don't know where (or how) to move it... -- Bhuck 10:15, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I know there's a separate article on the Third Reich, but the history summary in this article really should elaborate on this extremely important part of German history. Astonishing that (even in such a brief summary) the words Fascism, Nazi, and holocaust get not even a mention. They should be there if only to provide the links to the relevant articles, which I suppose is a primary function of such a summary. Somebody please rectify this.-- Palefire
Germany's population number in the template:germany infobox appears to be set too low. According to the German Federal Statistical Office, Germany's population at the end of December 2003 was 82,531,700 - not 82,495,000 [1]. The English site of the Federal Statistical Office is definitely worth checking from time to time. Heimdal 13:16, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Made some changes in the 2nd paragraph of the article's demographics section - plus a link to the German Federal Statistical Office. I have removed the word "Gastarbeiter" because it is no longer used in Germany. Heimdal 13:51, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have been bold and removed the entire 4th paragraph in the demographics section of the article, after my changes to the 2nd paragraph. Heimdal 14:39, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Some other numbers are wrong for non-citizen residents. The real numbers are here (english, from the Federal Statistical Office) http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/bevoe/bevoetab4.htm. I would change it but the page is locked :) The number of muslims is wrong too but I cant find a good source for that.
To answer your question, Magnus, sure, why not a link to a Mapblast map? But why Mapblast in particular? There are surely a lot better maps for our purposes. In fact, if I'm not mistaken the CIA has some for free. -- LMS
Fascinating article, Axel! Looks like a lot of good material for the anti-Americanism article. -- LMS
Which date of independence should we use? The 1949 date is frequently used given the nature of reform within Germany leading up to that date. Just how much of the Empire is left in today's Germany? Also, I'm not sure about the national motto. - Scipius
I do now change the data to 873. -- Ruhrjung 06:24 May 13, 2003 (UTC)
Uh, no no no no, The Bundesrepublik Deutschland was not formed in 873 AD! The modern German government was formed quite recently! It's really not appropriate to use Independence in reference to this region as it never really fought a war of independence, nor was it really granted independence excepting that in relation to its brief postwar occupations. The independence term is a holdover from the United States page I suspect, that should be changed to Date of Formation or something; which, depending on whether WEst Germany annexed East Germany or merged with East Germany is going to be either 1991 or 1949. The 1871 government ceased to exist in 1918. 172.141.178.53
See the comments from May 5. I agree with you that the "Independence" scheeme is awkward. But isn't there a reason to chose a similar aspect as have our neighbour countries? "France" or "Sweden" has also changed regimes and borders quite a few times. -- Ruhrjung 06:48 May 13, 2003 (UTC)
Do Germans even celebrate an independence day? 172.141.178.53
I think you are trying to use the somewhat amigious "date of the formation of the German nation" whereas this page seems to refer explicitly to the federal democratic constitutional government formed in 1949. 172.141.178.53
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Well, I disagree although it doesnt matter if we both agree the state vanished in 1945. I think the Weimar Republic was wholly new and different from the 1871 government. 172.141.178.53
However, the date 1949 is to modern Germany as 1776 is to the United States. Surely we should not fail to include such an important date? I agree it is somewhat inappropriate perhaps to revert; however, do not worry too much as older versions are saved. My reversion accomplished some good as you have now decided to discuss this issue. While the idea of a convention regulating pages to be similar is a good idea, I question whether every state should be given a "date of independence" as this is not applicable in many situations; however, what is implied by that term "independence" is applicable in probably every single case, that being the day the current government is generally considered to have been formally and constitutionally created, a date which in some cases simply happens to coincide with "independence". 172.143.50.165
The date 1871 seems, to me, at least, to be similarly important to 1949. After 1871, there was a single German state - only after 1871 does the term "Germany" even acquire a political meaning. 1949 is simply the date of foundation of the present government, the Bundesrepublic. Would we give 1946 as the date of independence or foundation or formation of Italy? No, we would give 1861, wouldn't we? john 06:04 May 14, 2003 (UTC)
But was the Bundesrepublik Deutschland formed in 1871? I think the solution to this issue is to have Germany be a history page about the notion of a German nation; and with a link to Bundesrepublik Deutschland. It may be correct to say the German nation formally appeared in 1871; however, it is incorrect to say the Bundesrepublik Deutschland was formed at that time, and that is what this article is indicating. 172.143.50.165
Don't you think it could have a value to use the "Fact box" in a similar way as the neighbour nations? -- 212.181.86.35 14:28 14 May 2003 (UTC)
Again, the Republic of Italy was not formed in 1861, but Italy as a nation-state was. Similarly, Germany as a nation-state was formed in 1871. The present French Republic was formed in 1959, but France has been in existence as a political entity for a millennium or so, and as a nation-state for hundreds of years. Why is the Bundesrepublik to be treated differently? I would say that the four years of non-German sovereignty would be the only argument to be made on this basis. If this were 1930, say, Clearly the German Reich had been founded not in 1918 or 19 (the dates of the fall of the monarchy and the Weimar constitution, respectively), but in 1871, in spite of the fact that the form of government and constitution were different. And a name change doesn't really seem significant enough, either. In the last 30 years, Afghanistan has changed it's name numerous times. Until 1973, it was the Kingdom of Afghanistan. In that year, it became the Republic of Afghanistan. In 1978, it became the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. In 1987, it switched back to the Republic of Afghanistan. In 1992, it became the Islamic State of Afghanistan, and in 1997, with the Taliban, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Since 2001, it's been the Islamic State of Afghanistan again. Does that mean that Afghanistan was formed in 2001?
john 07:33 16 May 2003 (UTC)
I would like to remind that this is not a page about the Bundesrepublik, just like
France isn't about the Fifth Republic, or
Sweden isn't about
Bernadotte's Swedish Monarchy, or the
Social Democrats' Swedish
Hegemony. On the other hand, this is not about the "
Germanics". It's about "Germany". What happened in 1871? Imperial Austria's prestigeous wish to dominate Germany was defeated by Prussia, establishing a competing Empire. A division of Germany was established, just like in 1949. Denmark "as we know it today" must be said to have been formed either in
1658, when
Terra Scania was to be ceeded, in the
1350s when Waldemar Atterdag re-conquered and re-united most of Denmark from German Counts of Holstein, or in
1864 when
Schleswig-Holstein was ceeded. But a (loosly) united Denmark existed since Christianization. The same can be said about Sweden. And about Germany and France since 873. Italy is not an equal case: Italy had been under a sustained foreign rule and totally lost unity. Germany wasn't under foreign rule until 1871. --
Ruhrjung 08:37 16 May 2003 (UTC)
About this 'day of independence' thingie... i'd think, that the official date is 1955 (would've to look up the exact date), when the FRG got back 'full' sovereignty` from the 4 allied control powers. That year allied controls and restraints where lifted, Germany got a 'new' army (recruited from the paramilitary police force established a few years earlier and commanded by former nazi-generals...) and joined NATO. The allies kept the right to intervene into inner-german-turmoil (coup d'etat and the like) till 1966? when the german army gained that right (notstandsgesetze)
perhaps both dates should be mentioned...
i'll be back at university tomorrow and ask there. the one, who teaches "regierungssysteme in deutschland" (types of goverment in germany) should know for sure...
hal9500
I am amending words that go beyond non-NPOV and to unsubstantiated theory only. Read Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World by a most respected and authoratative historian with access to facts who debunks the myth being perpetuated here by pointing out that at the Paris Peace Talks that resulted in the Treaty of Versailles, the Allied leaders did their best, and to blame World War II on them is to absolve Hitler and his appeasers. Joe Canuck 13:10 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The article and table refer to the Federal Republic, so those dates should be used for formation & unification (which I have changed to the usual English term "Reunification". Other dates can be mentioned in the history but there is no need to list them in the table. The situation is not similar to Canada which lists 3 dates in the evolution of one constant political entity.--
garryq
16:01, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
People, you should put in the year 1949. In 1990 the DDR (GDR in English = German Democratic Republic) (DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik) decided to merge with the Federal Republic. Though they merged, they DDR merely added their territory to the Federal Republic's. The DDR had a 'special' status (which it still has) with elections and electors, but it's the Federal Republic's Government that stayed in power. So in the end, I, as a german [not really proud of being one] have to say that the real date was 1949 though the national holiday is the 3rd October 1990 when the two states officially merged. -- frederick_c 17:37, 7 February 2005 (GMT +8)
I'd say, Germany's formation date is 1871. In 1973 the german Federal Constitution Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) in Karlsruhe has judged, that the Federal Republic of Germany is the german national state as formed in 1871 and not the successor of the German Empire. 84.157.48.105 18:19, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The following was inserted by http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=209.98.197.185 together with some other material of a less problematic nature:
Kosebamse 17:37, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
See Heimatvertriebene. -- Ann O'nyme 22:36, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Moved from article: (There is a German word for constitution; the name Grundgesetz was chosen on purpose, to reflect the temporary nature of it. There was supposed to be a 'real' constitution, after reunification. After reunification came, the Grundgesetz was accepted as the official German constitution by parliament.)
That name was indeed chosen instead of "Verfassung" (constitution) for that very reason. Although in the reunification treaties proposals were laid down for reappraisal and reformation of the "Grundgesetz", very little has changed in fact. I am however not sure to what degree today's Grundgesetz has indeed been passed by parliament after 1990 and whether it is universally accepted that there is no further need to discuss reforms. Kosebamse 13:46, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
To explain my strange edit summary, before that I made an edit where I didn't change anything by mistake and thought it would show up - what I did was restoring the edit Kosebamse explains above after having reverted to an earlier version. - Sandman 09:05, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
While reading about Magellan's first voyage, the names of the first 18 seamen to circumnavigate the globe were listed. On that list, Hans of Aachen leapt out at me. So I thought others might be interested that seamen of many nationalities participated in the voyage. Thus the edit which has since been reverted. I have no problem with this, but I thought this knowledge would edify others. 169.207.86.185 21:49, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
If you'll notice, the Library of Congress Country Studies puts a great deal of emphasis on the social structure of Germany. I cannnot claim to be an expert on this country, but from what I know about the culture, social stratification and political theory are major parts of German identity and the organization of society. (Some may even say that the clash of ideologies in the 1920s/30s was a defining "tipping point.") If possible, can experts on this topic offer more material on this matter? I find the idea in the Country Study of the "elite 1000" particularly fascinating. Even today, ten years after the Country Study, work like Gerhard Richter's clearly plays on ideas of government control, organization, the "elite," etc. Thanks, and great article.
Are there really regions in Germany where French is spoken along the border to France? Never heard about that.
As the grandson of an Alsatian grandmother born in the city of Mulhouse/Mühlhausen in Southern Alsace/Elsass, near the Swiss border, I can assure you, that especially in the countryside many people still speak the local German dialect. This dialect belongs to the Alemannic dialect group and is understood by most Germans that live in South Western Germany as well as by German speaking Swiss, since their dialects belong to the same group. There are also shows on local radio and television in this dialect, and the main newspaper, "Derniere Nouvelle d'Alsace" is published in French and German (Standard German) since there is no codified version of the Alsatian and Lorraine dialects. As for the Saarland, the local language is German (or rather the Saar dialect, which again has many similarities with the Lorraine dialect spoken on the other side of the border) and the majority of the population isn't necessarily more fluent in German than your average German in other parts of Southern/Southwestern Germany. Over the past decades Alsace/Elsass has become a symbol of European unity and reconciliation, which is probably why the European Union made the Alsatican capital Strassbourg/Straßburg on of their seats of parliament. GermanAmerican 19:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Reading through the "history" section one can see that by far the largest portion of the text deals with the war crimes commited by the German in both WW I and II and also the holocaust. Now, there's no doubt that the facts presented in this article are very true. Every German citizen (including me) know about them, they are told in school in Germany, and e.g. denying the existence of the holocaust can get you in jail here. Nonetheless, I can't resist my feeling that the article is missing important facts, thus misleading the reader somewhat. Let me explain this a bit.
When one looks at the last three paragraphs of the "history" section, three key facts are presented:
1. In 1945 Germany finally surrendered. After that, Germany was 45 years long divided and supervised.
2. In 1935 anti semitism became official Nazi German policy.
3. After the fall of Communism in Europe Germany was 1990 again united and is now playing a leading role in the EU.
I'm having two problems with this text:
First, despite the year numbers, the order of presentation and the lack of an additional counter statement suggests that anti semitism is _still_ official German policy.
Second, the lack of any additional info effectively leaves a gap between the years of '45 and '90. Additionally, it states, that Germany was "45 years long [...] supervised", which may leave the impression for the incautious reader that Germany was effectively occupied by the victory forces until '90.
I hope you see how this is a real concern. For example, friends who were born 30 years after end of WW II visiting e.g. the USA have repeatedly told me how people associated them with the "Nazi Party", because they didn't know better. Now I do assume that most US citizen do know some facts about Germany. But after all, this article is ment to teach people about Germany who _don't_ have a clue yet, so it's important they don't get even more confused.
So in order to get the facts straight, I urge the maintainer of this page to do the following:
a) Get the order of incidents right to prevent accidentially suggesting wrong facts.
b) Acknowledge the fact that Germany went democratic shortly after the war, including the full set of human rights.
c) At least add a short sentence describing how Germany's economic was able to rise and at the same time control from the allies was gradually removed.
Let me know on this page if you have any concerns or questions regarding this request.
Markus
Having Rote Arme Fraktion and nonsense about feminism in the summary of German history, and using as much space for that as for the Holy Roman Empire, is ridiculous. Please don't do that. You may move this stuff to History of Germany, Feminism, etc., respectively. Nico 14:09, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
But, the paragraph is important! It represents 1950-1990, 40 years! Without the paragraph Brandt's Ostpolitik and the anti-nationalism in Germany are missing in the overview, and the re-unification comes directly after WWII. What a gap! (Sorry Nico for the word "vandalism" I used, I thought a Nazi would have removed the paragraph, before I read your argumentation) 82.83.0.236 14:10, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This paragraph is truly important, thus it has to remain. But as a native German I am suprised that Feminism became a fundamental part of Germany. I was born in 1983, thus I fully experienced roughly ten to twelve years of Germany's political and cultural history. I am also interested in what is happening in Germany, but I never felt that feminism became, not even will become a fundamental part! I don't know where this person researched this fact? Only some years ago women were not allowed to serve as a soldier in the german army (Bundeswehr) unless an EU law forced the government. In environmentalism and anti-nationlism I fully agree but feminism? Can someone post some facts for this statement?! To avoid a false impression I am not an anti-feminist.
In Germany the famous feminist Alice Schwarzer founded the feminism magazin EMMA which has been published the first time on January 26. 1977. She truly is an important part of our german contemporary culture.
Robert
I disagree. And I'm not sure if all those statements are accurate, either. There is not one particular "German identity". Not all Germans are feminists, just like not all Germans are masculinists, are they? I think most of this is a parenthesis in the history of Germany, and should be in the history article, not in the summary. However, this could be in the summary: " Willy Brandt became chancellor. He made an important contribution towards reconciliation between West and East Germany. " Nico 14:20, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
"In the 1960s a desire to confront the Nazi past came into beeing. Successfully, mass protests clamored for a new Germany. The post-war generation was born. democracy, human rights and anti-nationalism became fundamental parts of Germany. Willy Brandt became chancellor. He made an important contribution towards reconciliation between West and East Germany. Active from 1968, the Red Army Faction carried out a succession of terrorist attacks in West Germany during the 1970s."
This seems OK, although I still don't think Rote Armee Fraktion is important enough for the short summary. Nico 14:52, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
-- Ruhrjung 17:36, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I hesitate to edit this article since my experience of Germany is limited to a few (very enjoyable) holidays, but I'm unconvinced by the claim (in the first sentence) that Germany is in "the middle of Europe". By the definition given under Europe (stretching to the Ural mountains), I would guess that even the easternmost point of Germany is well to the west of the continental centre. I suspect the latter may lie in eastern Poland or maybe Slovakia. What do people think?
(Note that the map on the Europe page doesn't stretch as far as the Urals! The area covered by the map showing the location of Germany better approximates the extent of Europe!) Cambyses 05:38, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Good point, but I think perhaps "the middle of Europe" has perhaps a subtly different implication to "Central Europe", the definite article implying the actual centre rather than a general area. I'll try changing it to the latter, which I guess is universally acceptable. (I realise this seems pedantic, but I think it is important not to perpetuate the commonly-held view (at least among English speakers) that the western countries somehow form the main and most important part of the continent, with the East as a kind of annex!) Cambyses 17:55, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"Today Germany turns out to be a hip country with its casual capital Berlin and a self-confident music and art culture. Current movie and literature movements work up the re-unification."
Sounds a little bit dated. Germany is hardly "hip" at the moment. It certainly was in the 90s, after the reunification, but that is already a decade ago. Maybe we should avoid using terms like "hip" at all, because such things change by the minute. And since when is Berlin a "casual" capital? What does that mean?
- Yes, absurd. I re-worded that paragraph. I couldn't work out the meaning of "working up the re-unification", so I removed it. Anyone feel free to make it mean something and re-insert it. (Palefire)
As a internet project I think events such as
mean that modern media art, hacktivism, Open source and Linux are very strong in Germany. This can be and shall be mentioned.
It is also an intresting fact that according to securtiyspace.com about 14 % of internet domains are .de http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/200412/domain.html
I think it is not appropriate to state that German Euro coins are a currency in Germany. If we do so - in order to be consequent - we have to put in all other national variants of the Euro coins as well (since those are "legal tender" in Germany as well). Additionally there is a difference between currency and legal tender, thus the Euro is the sole currency of Germany. Gugganij 20:08, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following footnote from the table: The enclave town of Büsingen am Hochrhein uses the Swiss franc as currency. Reasons:
According to grenzen.150m.com/buesingenGB.htm :
"[...] as Büsingen is incorporated into the Swiss customs territory, meaning that also the official currency is the Swiss Frank, however Büsingen is political and administration-wise German. (Kreis Konstanz)."
Either this page is wrong, or Büsingen official website is not accurate.
Gibt es Jemand aus Büsingen bei Wikipedia? TheWikipedian
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Germany is today often regarded as an open and tolerant country, although conservative politicians have voiced strong criticism against the Islamic minority after the murder of the Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh, and said the multi-cultural idea have failed. Removed as irrelevant to the article. They say that every day, to everyone who isn't hiding quickly enough. -- Anon.
I started editing the history section, and then I got to the part about Bismarck and the unification of the Second Empire. The pace of the text changes dramatically here. Before I delete a lot of stuff that is true and that is learned in German history courses, I thought maybe it would be good to discuss what is German history, what is Prussian history, and whether the Bismarckian era is so much more important to German history than the Metternichian (Metternich is not mentioned at all, nor is Marx)--and if we go into the history of Prussia, should we not also include the internal politics of the Kingdom of Württemberg, the development of the first constitution of Nassau, etc? I think a lot of this should be moved to other articles and the "Germany" article should present more of a summary. I just don't know where (or how) to move it... -- Bhuck 10:15, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I know there's a separate article on the Third Reich, but the history summary in this article really should elaborate on this extremely important part of German history. Astonishing that (even in such a brief summary) the words Fascism, Nazi, and holocaust get not even a mention. They should be there if only to provide the links to the relevant articles, which I suppose is a primary function of such a summary. Somebody please rectify this.-- Palefire
Germany's population number in the template:germany infobox appears to be set too low. According to the German Federal Statistical Office, Germany's population at the end of December 2003 was 82,531,700 - not 82,495,000 [1]. The English site of the Federal Statistical Office is definitely worth checking from time to time. Heimdal 13:16, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Made some changes in the 2nd paragraph of the article's demographics section - plus a link to the German Federal Statistical Office. I have removed the word "Gastarbeiter" because it is no longer used in Germany. Heimdal 13:51, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have been bold and removed the entire 4th paragraph in the demographics section of the article, after my changes to the 2nd paragraph. Heimdal 14:39, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Some other numbers are wrong for non-citizen residents. The real numbers are here (english, from the Federal Statistical Office) http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/bevoe/bevoetab4.htm. I would change it but the page is locked :) The number of muslims is wrong too but I cant find a good source for that.
To answer your question, Magnus, sure, why not a link to a Mapblast map? But why Mapblast in particular? There are surely a lot better maps for our purposes. In fact, if I'm not mistaken the CIA has some for free. -- LMS
Fascinating article, Axel! Looks like a lot of good material for the anti-Americanism article. -- LMS
Which date of independence should we use? The 1949 date is frequently used given the nature of reform within Germany leading up to that date. Just how much of the Empire is left in today's Germany? Also, I'm not sure about the national motto. - Scipius
I do now change the data to 873. -- Ruhrjung 06:24 May 13, 2003 (UTC)
Uh, no no no no, The Bundesrepublik Deutschland was not formed in 873 AD! The modern German government was formed quite recently! It's really not appropriate to use Independence in reference to this region as it never really fought a war of independence, nor was it really granted independence excepting that in relation to its brief postwar occupations. The independence term is a holdover from the United States page I suspect, that should be changed to Date of Formation or something; which, depending on whether WEst Germany annexed East Germany or merged with East Germany is going to be either 1991 or 1949. The 1871 government ceased to exist in 1918. 172.141.178.53
See the comments from May 5. I agree with you that the "Independence" scheeme is awkward. But isn't there a reason to chose a similar aspect as have our neighbour countries? "France" or "Sweden" has also changed regimes and borders quite a few times. -- Ruhrjung 06:48 May 13, 2003 (UTC)
Do Germans even celebrate an independence day? 172.141.178.53
I think you are trying to use the somewhat amigious "date of the formation of the German nation" whereas this page seems to refer explicitly to the federal democratic constitutional government formed in 1949. 172.141.178.53
hr {
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} </style> hat existed between 1918 and 1945 was called the Deutsche Reich, just like the state that existed before 1918. It changed its form of government, but it was still the same country, with the same name and (mostly) the same internal divisions. In 1945, though, I'd say that state pretty much ceased to exist. john 06:55 May 13, 2003 (UTC)
Well, I disagree although it doesnt matter if we both agree the state vanished in 1945. I think the Weimar Republic was wholly new and different from the 1871 government. 172.141.178.53
However, the date 1949 is to modern Germany as 1776 is to the United States. Surely we should not fail to include such an important date? I agree it is somewhat inappropriate perhaps to revert; however, do not worry too much as older versions are saved. My reversion accomplished some good as you have now decided to discuss this issue. While the idea of a convention regulating pages to be similar is a good idea, I question whether every state should be given a "date of independence" as this is not applicable in many situations; however, what is implied by that term "independence" is applicable in probably every single case, that being the day the current government is generally considered to have been formally and constitutionally created, a date which in some cases simply happens to coincide with "independence". 172.143.50.165
The date 1871 seems, to me, at least, to be similarly important to 1949. After 1871, there was a single German state - only after 1871 does the term "Germany" even acquire a political meaning. 1949 is simply the date of foundation of the present government, the Bundesrepublic. Would we give 1946 as the date of independence or foundation or formation of Italy? No, we would give 1861, wouldn't we? john 06:04 May 14, 2003 (UTC)
But was the Bundesrepublik Deutschland formed in 1871? I think the solution to this issue is to have Germany be a history page about the notion of a German nation; and with a link to Bundesrepublik Deutschland. It may be correct to say the German nation formally appeared in 1871; however, it is incorrect to say the Bundesrepublik Deutschland was formed at that time, and that is what this article is indicating. 172.143.50.165
Don't you think it could have a value to use the "Fact box" in a similar way as the neighbour nations? -- 212.181.86.35 14:28 14 May 2003 (UTC)
Again, the Republic of Italy was not formed in 1861, but Italy as a nation-state was. Similarly, Germany as a nation-state was formed in 1871. The present French Republic was formed in 1959, but France has been in existence as a political entity for a millennium or so, and as a nation-state for hundreds of years. Why is the Bundesrepublik to be treated differently? I would say that the four years of non-German sovereignty would be the only argument to be made on this basis. If this were 1930, say, Clearly the German Reich had been founded not in 1918 or 19 (the dates of the fall of the monarchy and the Weimar constitution, respectively), but in 1871, in spite of the fact that the form of government and constitution were different. And a name change doesn't really seem significant enough, either. In the last 30 years, Afghanistan has changed it's name numerous times. Until 1973, it was the Kingdom of Afghanistan. In that year, it became the Republic of Afghanistan. In 1978, it became the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. In 1987, it switched back to the Republic of Afghanistan. In 1992, it became the Islamic State of Afghanistan, and in 1997, with the Taliban, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Since 2001, it's been the Islamic State of Afghanistan again. Does that mean that Afghanistan was formed in 2001?
john 07:33 16 May 2003 (UTC)
I would like to remind that this is not a page about the Bundesrepublik, just like
France isn't about the Fifth Republic, or
Sweden isn't about
Bernadotte's Swedish Monarchy, or the
Social Democrats' Swedish
Hegemony. On the other hand, this is not about the "
Germanics". It's about "Germany". What happened in 1871? Imperial Austria's prestigeous wish to dominate Germany was defeated by Prussia, establishing a competing Empire. A division of Germany was established, just like in 1949. Denmark "as we know it today" must be said to have been formed either in
1658, when
Terra Scania was to be ceeded, in the
1350s when Waldemar Atterdag re-conquered and re-united most of Denmark from German Counts of Holstein, or in
1864 when
Schleswig-Holstein was ceeded. But a (loosly) united Denmark existed since Christianization. The same can be said about Sweden. And about Germany and France since 873. Italy is not an equal case: Italy had been under a sustained foreign rule and totally lost unity. Germany wasn't under foreign rule until 1871. --
Ruhrjung 08:37 16 May 2003 (UTC)
About this 'day of independence' thingie... i'd think, that the official date is 1955 (would've to look up the exact date), when the FRG got back 'full' sovereignty` from the 4 allied control powers. That year allied controls and restraints where lifted, Germany got a 'new' army (recruited from the paramilitary police force established a few years earlier and commanded by former nazi-generals...) and joined NATO. The allies kept the right to intervene into inner-german-turmoil (coup d'etat and the like) till 1966? when the german army gained that right (notstandsgesetze)
perhaps both dates should be mentioned...
i'll be back at university tomorrow and ask there. the one, who teaches "regierungssysteme in deutschland" (types of goverment in germany) should know for sure...
hal9500
I am amending words that go beyond non-NPOV and to unsubstantiated theory only. Read Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World by a most respected and authoratative historian with access to facts who debunks the myth being perpetuated here by pointing out that at the Paris Peace Talks that resulted in the Treaty of Versailles, the Allied leaders did their best, and to blame World War II on them is to absolve Hitler and his appeasers. Joe Canuck 13:10 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The article and table refer to the Federal Republic, so those dates should be used for formation & unification (which I have changed to the usual English term "Reunification". Other dates can be mentioned in the history but there is no need to list them in the table. The situation is not similar to Canada which lists 3 dates in the evolution of one constant political entity.--
garryq
16:01, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
People, you should put in the year 1949. In 1990 the DDR (GDR in English = German Democratic Republic) (DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik) decided to merge with the Federal Republic. Though they merged, they DDR merely added their territory to the Federal Republic's. The DDR had a 'special' status (which it still has) with elections and electors, but it's the Federal Republic's Government that stayed in power. So in the end, I, as a german [not really proud of being one] have to say that the real date was 1949 though the national holiday is the 3rd October 1990 when the two states officially merged. -- frederick_c 17:37, 7 February 2005 (GMT +8)
I'd say, Germany's formation date is 1871. In 1973 the german Federal Constitution Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) in Karlsruhe has judged, that the Federal Republic of Germany is the german national state as formed in 1871 and not the successor of the German Empire. 84.157.48.105 18:19, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The following was inserted by http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=209.98.197.185 together with some other material of a less problematic nature:
Kosebamse 17:37, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
See Heimatvertriebene. -- Ann O'nyme 22:36, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Moved from article: (There is a German word for constitution; the name Grundgesetz was chosen on purpose, to reflect the temporary nature of it. There was supposed to be a 'real' constitution, after reunification. After reunification came, the Grundgesetz was accepted as the official German constitution by parliament.)
That name was indeed chosen instead of "Verfassung" (constitution) for that very reason. Although in the reunification treaties proposals were laid down for reappraisal and reformation of the "Grundgesetz", very little has changed in fact. I am however not sure to what degree today's Grundgesetz has indeed been passed by parliament after 1990 and whether it is universally accepted that there is no further need to discuss reforms. Kosebamse 13:46, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
To explain my strange edit summary, before that I made an edit where I didn't change anything by mistake and thought it would show up - what I did was restoring the edit Kosebamse explains above after having reverted to an earlier version. - Sandman 09:05, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
While reading about Magellan's first voyage, the names of the first 18 seamen to circumnavigate the globe were listed. On that list, Hans of Aachen leapt out at me. So I thought others might be interested that seamen of many nationalities participated in the voyage. Thus the edit which has since been reverted. I have no problem with this, but I thought this knowledge would edify others. 169.207.86.185 21:49, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
If you'll notice, the Library of Congress Country Studies puts a great deal of emphasis on the social structure of Germany. I cannnot claim to be an expert on this country, but from what I know about the culture, social stratification and political theory are major parts of German identity and the organization of society. (Some may even say that the clash of ideologies in the 1920s/30s was a defining "tipping point.") If possible, can experts on this topic offer more material on this matter? I find the idea in the Country Study of the "elite 1000" particularly fascinating. Even today, ten years after the Country Study, work like Gerhard Richter's clearly plays on ideas of government control, organization, the "elite," etc. Thanks, and great article.
Are there really regions in Germany where French is spoken along the border to France? Never heard about that.
As the grandson of an Alsatian grandmother born in the city of Mulhouse/Mühlhausen in Southern Alsace/Elsass, near the Swiss border, I can assure you, that especially in the countryside many people still speak the local German dialect. This dialect belongs to the Alemannic dialect group and is understood by most Germans that live in South Western Germany as well as by German speaking Swiss, since their dialects belong to the same group. There are also shows on local radio and television in this dialect, and the main newspaper, "Derniere Nouvelle d'Alsace" is published in French and German (Standard German) since there is no codified version of the Alsatian and Lorraine dialects. As for the Saarland, the local language is German (or rather the Saar dialect, which again has many similarities with the Lorraine dialect spoken on the other side of the border) and the majority of the population isn't necessarily more fluent in German than your average German in other parts of Southern/Southwestern Germany. Over the past decades Alsace/Elsass has become a symbol of European unity and reconciliation, which is probably why the European Union made the Alsatican capital Strassbourg/Straßburg on of their seats of parliament. GermanAmerican 19:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Reading through the "history" section one can see that by far the largest portion of the text deals with the war crimes commited by the German in both WW I and II and also the holocaust. Now, there's no doubt that the facts presented in this article are very true. Every German citizen (including me) know about them, they are told in school in Germany, and e.g. denying the existence of the holocaust can get you in jail here. Nonetheless, I can't resist my feeling that the article is missing important facts, thus misleading the reader somewhat. Let me explain this a bit.
When one looks at the last three paragraphs of the "history" section, three key facts are presented:
1. In 1945 Germany finally surrendered. After that, Germany was 45 years long divided and supervised.
2. In 1935 anti semitism became official Nazi German policy.
3. After the fall of Communism in Europe Germany was 1990 again united and is now playing a leading role in the EU.
I'm having two problems with this text:
First, despite the year numbers, the order of presentation and the lack of an additional counter statement suggests that anti semitism is _still_ official German policy.
Second, the lack of any additional info effectively leaves a gap between the years of '45 and '90. Additionally, it states, that Germany was "45 years long [...] supervised", which may leave the impression for the incautious reader that Germany was effectively occupied by the victory forces until '90.
I hope you see how this is a real concern. For example, friends who were born 30 years after end of WW II visiting e.g. the USA have repeatedly told me how people associated them with the "Nazi Party", because they didn't know better. Now I do assume that most US citizen do know some facts about Germany. But after all, this article is ment to teach people about Germany who _don't_ have a clue yet, so it's important they don't get even more confused.
So in order to get the facts straight, I urge the maintainer of this page to do the following:
a) Get the order of incidents right to prevent accidentially suggesting wrong facts.
b) Acknowledge the fact that Germany went democratic shortly after the war, including the full set of human rights.
c) At least add a short sentence describing how Germany's economic was able to rise and at the same time control from the allies was gradually removed.
Let me know on this page if you have any concerns or questions regarding this request.
Markus
Having Rote Arme Fraktion and nonsense about feminism in the summary of German history, and using as much space for that as for the Holy Roman Empire, is ridiculous. Please don't do that. You may move this stuff to History of Germany, Feminism, etc., respectively. Nico 14:09, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
But, the paragraph is important! It represents 1950-1990, 40 years! Without the paragraph Brandt's Ostpolitik and the anti-nationalism in Germany are missing in the overview, and the re-unification comes directly after WWII. What a gap! (Sorry Nico for the word "vandalism" I used, I thought a Nazi would have removed the paragraph, before I read your argumentation) 82.83.0.236 14:10, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This paragraph is truly important, thus it has to remain. But as a native German I am suprised that Feminism became a fundamental part of Germany. I was born in 1983, thus I fully experienced roughly ten to twelve years of Germany's political and cultural history. I am also interested in what is happening in Germany, but I never felt that feminism became, not even will become a fundamental part! I don't know where this person researched this fact? Only some years ago women were not allowed to serve as a soldier in the german army (Bundeswehr) unless an EU law forced the government. In environmentalism and anti-nationlism I fully agree but feminism? Can someone post some facts for this statement?! To avoid a false impression I am not an anti-feminist.
In Germany the famous feminist Alice Schwarzer founded the feminism magazin EMMA which has been published the first time on January 26. 1977. She truly is an important part of our german contemporary culture.
Robert
I disagree. And I'm not sure if all those statements are accurate, either. There is not one particular "German identity". Not all Germans are feminists, just like not all Germans are masculinists, are they? I think most of this is a parenthesis in the history of Germany, and should be in the history article, not in the summary. However, this could be in the summary: " Willy Brandt became chancellor. He made an important contribution towards reconciliation between West and East Germany. " Nico 14:20, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
"In the 1960s a desire to confront the Nazi past came into beeing. Successfully, mass protests clamored for a new Germany. The post-war generation was born. democracy, human rights and anti-nationalism became fundamental parts of Germany. Willy Brandt became chancellor. He made an important contribution towards reconciliation between West and East Germany. Active from 1968, the Red Army Faction carried out a succession of terrorist attacks in West Germany during the 1970s."
This seems OK, although I still don't think Rote Armee Fraktion is important enough for the short summary. Nico 14:52, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
-- Ruhrjung 17:36, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I hesitate to edit this article since my experience of Germany is limited to a few (very enjoyable) holidays, but I'm unconvinced by the claim (in the first sentence) that Germany is in "the middle of Europe". By the definition given under Europe (stretching to the Ural mountains), I would guess that even the easternmost point of Germany is well to the west of the continental centre. I suspect the latter may lie in eastern Poland or maybe Slovakia. What do people think?
(Note that the map on the Europe page doesn't stretch as far as the Urals! The area covered by the map showing the location of Germany better approximates the extent of Europe!) Cambyses 05:38, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Good point, but I think perhaps "the middle of Europe" has perhaps a subtly different implication to "Central Europe", the definite article implying the actual centre rather than a general area. I'll try changing it to the latter, which I guess is universally acceptable. (I realise this seems pedantic, but I think it is important not to perpetuate the commonly-held view (at least among English speakers) that the western countries somehow form the main and most important part of the continent, with the East as a kind of annex!) Cambyses 17:55, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"Today Germany turns out to be a hip country with its casual capital Berlin and a self-confident music and art culture. Current movie and literature movements work up the re-unification."
Sounds a little bit dated. Germany is hardly "hip" at the moment. It certainly was in the 90s, after the reunification, but that is already a decade ago. Maybe we should avoid using terms like "hip" at all, because such things change by the minute. And since when is Berlin a "casual" capital? What does that mean?
- Yes, absurd. I re-worded that paragraph. I couldn't work out the meaning of "working up the re-unification", so I removed it. Anyone feel free to make it mean something and re-insert it. (Palefire)
As a internet project I think events such as
mean that modern media art, hacktivism, Open source and Linux are very strong in Germany. This can be and shall be mentioned.
It is also an intresting fact that according to securtiyspace.com about 14 % of internet domains are .de http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/200412/domain.html
I think it is not appropriate to state that German Euro coins are a currency in Germany. If we do so - in order to be consequent - we have to put in all other national variants of the Euro coins as well (since those are "legal tender" in Germany as well). Additionally there is a difference between currency and legal tender, thus the Euro is the sole currency of Germany. Gugganij 20:08, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following footnote from the table: The enclave town of Büsingen am Hochrhein uses the Swiss franc as currency. Reasons:
According to grenzen.150m.com/buesingenGB.htm :
"[...] as Büsingen is incorporated into the Swiss customs territory, meaning that also the official currency is the Swiss Frank, however Büsingen is political and administration-wise German. (Kreis Konstanz)."
Either this page is wrong, or Büsingen official website is not accurate.
Gibt es Jemand aus Büsingen bei Wikipedia? TheWikipedian