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I saw some time ago that the figure given here for the deaths in the Dersim rebellion is very high. A figure of around 13,000 is usually given and that is in that main article too. I recently read an article saying just 13,000 too ( Turkey's Alevis 'under the shadow of military tanks', Al Jazeera). I decided to look in the source and how it came here. It was added 5.5 years ago. A figure of 65,000 to 70,000 killed is given and is still here today. The source is an excerpt from a book by Martin van Bruinessen ( The Suppression of the Dersim Rebellion in Turkey (1937-38)). Looking in the source, we find the following:
This is followed by a note saying:
So he is not saying 65,000-70,000 were killed but that so many lived there. In one part there, he writes :
Looking in other Wikipedia articles, 40,000 deaths is mentioned and sourced to David McDowall. He cites Wadie Jwaideh, who cites Lucien Rambout, and writes it may be exaggerated. See Dersim rebellion#Consequences and Dersim rebellion#Numbers killed. 70,000 is given by the Kurdish PEN but that is not a reliable source. I will remove this and add 13,000-40,000.
This source is mentioned at 1934 Turkish Resettlement Law too but the usual figure of 13,000 is not given (the part about 65,000-70,000 was there too before it was removed). Neither is it in List of modern conflicts in the Middle East. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 06:32, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page
|
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hi you reverted my edit of the Genocides in history page, could you undo it? (it was not only adding the harrying of the north but also a big structural change, i found the present structure not very good) References to that it was a genocide are on the harrying of the north page itself , is that not enough? Here they are as well: William's strategy, implemented during the winter of 1069–1070 (he spent Christmas 1069 in York), has been described by William E. Kapelle and some other modern scholars as an act of genocide. [1] [2] [a] Contemporary biographers of William also considered it to be his cruelest act and a stain upon his soul. [4] Writing about the Harrying, over fifty years later, the Anglo-Norman chronicler Orderic Vitalis said:
I have often praised William in this book, but I can say nothing good about this brutal slaughter. God will punish him.|Orderic Vitalis, 12th century. [5]}} The land was ravaged on either side of William's route north from the River Aire. His army destroyed crops and settlements and forced rebels into hiding. In the New Year of 1070 he split his army into smaller units and sent them out to burn, loot, and terrify. [6] Florence of Worcester said that from the Humber to the Tees, William's men burnt whole villages and slaughtered the inhabitants. Food stores and livestock were destroyed so that anyone surviving the initial massacre would succumb to starvation over the winter. The survivors were reduced to cannibalism. [7] Refugees from the harrying are mentioned as far away as Worcestershire in the Evesham Abbey chronicle. [8] [9] [10] [b]
Thanks WillemienH ( talk) 08:07, 11 May 2015 (UTC) |
user:WillemienH this is an explanation of why I removed you addition of Harrying of the north. As to you other changes, I do not think that they improve the article. It already has much too large a TOC.
The article Genocide in history is not a list of nasty things that happened in the past. Genocide has a specific meaning both as a legal concept and as an academic label (see both the Genocide and Genocide definitions).
The easiest way to understand this is to look at the people accused of genocide by the prosecutors at the ICTY and the List of Bosnian genocide prosecutions, it becomes clear that the decision of if a genocide took place is extremely complicated. You will notice that many of those accused of genocide who were found innocent of genocide were found guilty of crimes again humanity this is because it is relatively easy to prove that a person took part in mass murder and other crimes against humanity, it is far harder to prove that they committed these crimes with the intent to commit genocide. The trouble is that "Guilty of genocide" has a punch to it that "guilty of crimes against humanity" does not, most (people have fallen asleep by the time the get to "against").
For this reason it is not enough for you as an individual to look at a set events and say that it is a genocide, you need to find experts who agree with your analysis, and unless the source you find is very notable (eg the Whitaker Report), you need to find several different reliable sources that support the view, because to add an event on the views of one person probably gives undue weight to that view (see WP:NOR and WP:UNDUE). If the Harrying of the north is widely viewed as a genocide then finding more than one expert reliable source that says so should be easy.
-- PBS ( talk) 09:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
OKay thanks for your explanation, but i was more thinking about the structural changes i wanted to meake, is there a reason to have this quite confusing TOC ? ( i would prefer to have more periods at the first and second level WillemienH ( talk) 09:57, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
I propose that this article should contain its own inclusion criteria, like those in
to inform and guide new editors who may not be familiar with the three content policies and how the content policies affect selection of events for inclusion in this article. -- PBS ( talk) 10:50, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
See the proposed Talk:Genocides in history/Inclusion criteria.
To simplify this RfC I would like editors to voice their opinions in the survey section below, whether in principle this talk page should include an Inclusion criteria similar to that on Talk:List of ethnic cleansing campaigns. Changes to the inclusion criteria can be discussed in the changes section below and implemented in the usual way while this RfC is in progress. -- PBS ( talk) 10:50, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
I found substantial use of both mdy dates and dmy dates, with dmy dates outnumbering mdy dates by about 4-to-1, so I added the "use dmy dates" template and converted about 60 mdy dates to dmy dates.
I surveyed the use of American and British English. I found labor/labour, behavior/behaviour, favor/favour. But in the -ize/-ise words I found the overwhelming prevalence of -ize. The only -ise word that would be -ize in American English was "cannibalise". I contrast, I found these American English -ize words that would usually be -ise in British English: recognize, emphasize, theorize, politicize, authorize, apologize, specialize, sterilize, patronize, organize, characterize, marginalize. Therefore I concluded that this article is in American English. I added the "use American English" template and converted labour to labor, behavior to behavior, favour to favor, and cannibalise to cannibalize.
I hope these changes are satisfactory, and I encourage people to let them stand. If anyone is unhappy about all this, I suggest discussing it here first. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 05:03, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
The Congo has been discussed several times before for the last time that it was see
To summarise just because something including mass murder is a crime against humanity does not make it a genocide. Genocide has an additional component which is the intent to destroy a group. Adam Hochschild is a leading academic in this field who published a book called King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa that cause a furore in Belgum . In "In the Heart of Darkness — A Glimpse of the World". HowardwFrench.com. New York Review of Books. 2005-10-26. Adam Hochschild states:
The exhibit deals with this question in a wall panel misleadingly headed “Genocide in the Congo?” This is a red herring, for no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide; a forced labor system, although it may be equally deadly, is different.
When one has the expert who brought this atrocity to a modern audience stating that the atrocity was not a genocide and that "no reputable historian" has made such a charge, we should remove the section that says otherwise. -- PBS ( talk) 07:08, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Robert Weisbord stated in the 2003 Journal of Genocide Research that attempting to eliminate a portion of the population is enough to qualify as genocide under the UN convention. In the case of the Congo Free State, the unbearable conditions would qualify as a genocide. Weisbord, Robert G. (2003). "The King, the Cardinal and the Pope: Leopold II's genocide in the Congo and the Vatican". Journal of Genocide Research 5: 35–45. doi:10.1080/14623520305651.
NegroLeagueHistorian (
talk) 16:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
the events surrounding the book titled Late Victorian Holocausts should at least find a place in this list, as these were undeniably caused by deliberate criminal acts in administrative circles.
ATB - Wikirictor ( talk) 15:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to say something controversial. It's a proposal. Genocide is a scary thing. The word should not be flung around. There's a difference between people dying of diseases that were inadvertently introduced by foreigners and people being shot to death en masse. This list seems WAAAAYY too inclusive, which really trivializes genocide. I propose that either A: We should only include genocides that have been recognized by at least two states or the majority of historians Or B: We separate "recognized genocides" from "unrecognized genocides". Because while the death of millions of Native Americans was horrible, they were by no means exterminated. 99%+ died without being touched by a European. Same with Congo except a bit less so. 50.187.216.93 ( talk) 00:56, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Or we could only include things in the category "genocide", as all of these are pretty well substantiated with a few exceptions. 50.187.216.93 ( talk) 00:58, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
I agree. Adding genocidal claims for "Australia 1900–1969" is nonsense: the kids were not killed on masse, to eliminate a nation. Just the opposite: they were nourished and educated for free. It could be suspected as a Rome Statute 6b method.
OTOH, I added the WW2 genocide of Poles by Germans (read: Adolf Hitler) which was genocidal in intent, pacem the written first-hand documents produced by Nazi Germans themselves. It has been curiously missing here, despite > 100 000 victims executed just in one year.
Zezen ( talk) 20:40, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
I noticed that this article has a section about the Armenian genocide, but not about the persecution of Ottoman Muslims or Ottoman genocide. Should it also be mentioned in this article? Jarble ( talk) 20:14, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
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This obviously doesn't use the legal definition of genocide (and thus trivializes genocide) and its very loose criteria "events called genocide by a reliable source" allows for selective use of sources for political means. Um, why? Can't we separate it into recognized and unrecognized genocides? Isn't it different when killings are intentional and when they are done by humans rather than diseases?-- Monochrome_ Monitor 21:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I also wonder why Moses is used for history. There is no evidence that there were any jews in Egypt as slaves or in any other way except biblical parables. it would be as historical to use stories from Grimm Brothers as the Bible.
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/info/en/?search=Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims Patetez ( talk) 22:08, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:14, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
If there are up to date, genuinely academic WP:RS demonstrating that genocide is not a descriptor associated with the event, please bring your sources to the table and discuss the content here on the article's talk page. Edit warring content is disruptive and ineffectual. Per WP:BURDEN, it is up to the the party removing sourced content to demonstrate that their sources are correct, and that the sources in use are not. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 04:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
If you read through the lead and alternative definitions, the definitions you are alluding to are not proscriptions to the content of the article, they merely serve as a broad based introduction. On that topic, I suspect that the "Alternate definitions" hatnote should be changed to 'main article' rather than 'see also'.
This discussion is taking us back to the issue of renaming the article (above). If the list is to be proscribed to being a reflection of the CPPCG definition alone, it would have to be renamed to reflect that it is proscribed, and content outside of these definitions would/should be transferred to a WP:SPINOFF article. Essentially, anything pre-dating the 20th century would have to go as it could only be understood as being revisionism and OR. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 04:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
According to R. J. Rummel, genocide has 3 different meanings. The ordinary meaning is murder by government of people due to their national, ethnic, racial, or religious group membership. The legal meaning of genocide refers to the international treaty, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This also includes non-killings that in the end eliminate the group, such as preventing births or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group. A generalized meaning of genocide is similar to the ordinary meaning but also includes government killings of political opponents or otherwise intentional murder. It is to avoid confusion regarding what meaning is intended that Rummel created the term democide for the third meaning
Rummel is a moron, "democide" such a daft term it's no wonder no one uses it. That said, I was surprised to see the 1965–66 slaughter, however horrendous and gargantuan, as genocide. Surely the only definition of genocide we should adhere to is the UN one – I mean, no one's going to be prosecuted for genocide a la Cribb. -- BowlAndSpoon ( talk) 21:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
"Listen up"[ sic], BowlAndSpoon, I'm not particularly concerned as to whether you're convinced that you're WP:SPIDERMAN. The fact that you don't believe there to be anything to discuss does not mean there is nothing worth discussion. If I have to pull you up on WP:PERSONAL again, it will be in a very public venue. Assume good faith, remain civil in discussions, and don't propose simplistic methods of dealing with a vast amount of material as if it were about chucking some 'stuff' over there, and other 'stuff' somewhere else while the proposal you favour remains the
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 19 |
I saw some time ago that the figure given here for the deaths in the Dersim rebellion is very high. A figure of around 13,000 is usually given and that is in that main article too. I recently read an article saying just 13,000 too ( Turkey's Alevis 'under the shadow of military tanks', Al Jazeera). I decided to look in the source and how it came here. It was added 5.5 years ago. A figure of 65,000 to 70,000 killed is given and is still here today. The source is an excerpt from a book by Martin van Bruinessen ( The Suppression of the Dersim Rebellion in Turkey (1937-38)). Looking in the source, we find the following:
This is followed by a note saying:
So he is not saying 65,000-70,000 were killed but that so many lived there. In one part there, he writes :
Looking in other Wikipedia articles, 40,000 deaths is mentioned and sourced to David McDowall. He cites Wadie Jwaideh, who cites Lucien Rambout, and writes it may be exaggerated. See Dersim rebellion#Consequences and Dersim rebellion#Numbers killed. 70,000 is given by the Kurdish PEN but that is not a reliable source. I will remove this and add 13,000-40,000.
This source is mentioned at 1934 Turkish Resettlement Law too but the usual figure of 13,000 is not given (the part about 65,000-70,000 was there too before it was removed). Neither is it in List of modern conflicts in the Middle East. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 06:32, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page
|
---|
hi you reverted my edit of the Genocides in history page, could you undo it? (it was not only adding the harrying of the north but also a big structural change, i found the present structure not very good) References to that it was a genocide are on the harrying of the north page itself , is that not enough? Here they are as well: William's strategy, implemented during the winter of 1069–1070 (he spent Christmas 1069 in York), has been described by William E. Kapelle and some other modern scholars as an act of genocide. [1] [2] [a] Contemporary biographers of William also considered it to be his cruelest act and a stain upon his soul. [4] Writing about the Harrying, over fifty years later, the Anglo-Norman chronicler Orderic Vitalis said:
I have often praised William in this book, but I can say nothing good about this brutal slaughter. God will punish him.|Orderic Vitalis, 12th century. [5]}} The land was ravaged on either side of William's route north from the River Aire. His army destroyed crops and settlements and forced rebels into hiding. In the New Year of 1070 he split his army into smaller units and sent them out to burn, loot, and terrify. [6] Florence of Worcester said that from the Humber to the Tees, William's men burnt whole villages and slaughtered the inhabitants. Food stores and livestock were destroyed so that anyone surviving the initial massacre would succumb to starvation over the winter. The survivors were reduced to cannibalism. [7] Refugees from the harrying are mentioned as far away as Worcestershire in the Evesham Abbey chronicle. [8] [9] [10] [b]
Thanks WillemienH ( talk) 08:07, 11 May 2015 (UTC) |
user:WillemienH this is an explanation of why I removed you addition of Harrying of the north. As to you other changes, I do not think that they improve the article. It already has much too large a TOC.
The article Genocide in history is not a list of nasty things that happened in the past. Genocide has a specific meaning both as a legal concept and as an academic label (see both the Genocide and Genocide definitions).
The easiest way to understand this is to look at the people accused of genocide by the prosecutors at the ICTY and the List of Bosnian genocide prosecutions, it becomes clear that the decision of if a genocide took place is extremely complicated. You will notice that many of those accused of genocide who were found innocent of genocide were found guilty of crimes again humanity this is because it is relatively easy to prove that a person took part in mass murder and other crimes against humanity, it is far harder to prove that they committed these crimes with the intent to commit genocide. The trouble is that "Guilty of genocide" has a punch to it that "guilty of crimes against humanity" does not, most (people have fallen asleep by the time the get to "against").
For this reason it is not enough for you as an individual to look at a set events and say that it is a genocide, you need to find experts who agree with your analysis, and unless the source you find is very notable (eg the Whitaker Report), you need to find several different reliable sources that support the view, because to add an event on the views of one person probably gives undue weight to that view (see WP:NOR and WP:UNDUE). If the Harrying of the north is widely viewed as a genocide then finding more than one expert reliable source that says so should be easy.
-- PBS ( talk) 09:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
OKay thanks for your explanation, but i was more thinking about the structural changes i wanted to meake, is there a reason to have this quite confusing TOC ? ( i would prefer to have more periods at the first and second level WillemienH ( talk) 09:57, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
I propose that this article should contain its own inclusion criteria, like those in
to inform and guide new editors who may not be familiar with the three content policies and how the content policies affect selection of events for inclusion in this article. -- PBS ( talk) 10:50, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
See the proposed Talk:Genocides in history/Inclusion criteria.
To simplify this RfC I would like editors to voice their opinions in the survey section below, whether in principle this talk page should include an Inclusion criteria similar to that on Talk:List of ethnic cleansing campaigns. Changes to the inclusion criteria can be discussed in the changes section below and implemented in the usual way while this RfC is in progress. -- PBS ( talk) 10:50, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
I found substantial use of both mdy dates and dmy dates, with dmy dates outnumbering mdy dates by about 4-to-1, so I added the "use dmy dates" template and converted about 60 mdy dates to dmy dates.
I surveyed the use of American and British English. I found labor/labour, behavior/behaviour, favor/favour. But in the -ize/-ise words I found the overwhelming prevalence of -ize. The only -ise word that would be -ize in American English was "cannibalise". I contrast, I found these American English -ize words that would usually be -ise in British English: recognize, emphasize, theorize, politicize, authorize, apologize, specialize, sterilize, patronize, organize, characterize, marginalize. Therefore I concluded that this article is in American English. I added the "use American English" template and converted labour to labor, behavior to behavior, favour to favor, and cannibalise to cannibalize.
I hope these changes are satisfactory, and I encourage people to let them stand. If anyone is unhappy about all this, I suggest discussing it here first. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 05:03, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
The Congo has been discussed several times before for the last time that it was see
To summarise just because something including mass murder is a crime against humanity does not make it a genocide. Genocide has an additional component which is the intent to destroy a group. Adam Hochschild is a leading academic in this field who published a book called King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa that cause a furore in Belgum . In "In the Heart of Darkness — A Glimpse of the World". HowardwFrench.com. New York Review of Books. 2005-10-26. Adam Hochschild states:
The exhibit deals with this question in a wall panel misleadingly headed “Genocide in the Congo?” This is a red herring, for no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide; a forced labor system, although it may be equally deadly, is different.
When one has the expert who brought this atrocity to a modern audience stating that the atrocity was not a genocide and that "no reputable historian" has made such a charge, we should remove the section that says otherwise. -- PBS ( talk) 07:08, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Robert Weisbord stated in the 2003 Journal of Genocide Research that attempting to eliminate a portion of the population is enough to qualify as genocide under the UN convention. In the case of the Congo Free State, the unbearable conditions would qualify as a genocide. Weisbord, Robert G. (2003). "The King, the Cardinal and the Pope: Leopold II's genocide in the Congo and the Vatican". Journal of Genocide Research 5: 35–45. doi:10.1080/14623520305651.
NegroLeagueHistorian (
talk) 16:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
the events surrounding the book titled Late Victorian Holocausts should at least find a place in this list, as these were undeniably caused by deliberate criminal acts in administrative circles.
ATB - Wikirictor ( talk) 15:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to say something controversial. It's a proposal. Genocide is a scary thing. The word should not be flung around. There's a difference between people dying of diseases that were inadvertently introduced by foreigners and people being shot to death en masse. This list seems WAAAAYY too inclusive, which really trivializes genocide. I propose that either A: We should only include genocides that have been recognized by at least two states or the majority of historians Or B: We separate "recognized genocides" from "unrecognized genocides". Because while the death of millions of Native Americans was horrible, they were by no means exterminated. 99%+ died without being touched by a European. Same with Congo except a bit less so. 50.187.216.93 ( talk) 00:56, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Or we could only include things in the category "genocide", as all of these are pretty well substantiated with a few exceptions. 50.187.216.93 ( talk) 00:58, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
I agree. Adding genocidal claims for "Australia 1900–1969" is nonsense: the kids were not killed on masse, to eliminate a nation. Just the opposite: they were nourished and educated for free. It could be suspected as a Rome Statute 6b method.
OTOH, I added the WW2 genocide of Poles by Germans (read: Adolf Hitler) which was genocidal in intent, pacem the written first-hand documents produced by Nazi Germans themselves. It has been curiously missing here, despite > 100 000 victims executed just in one year.
Zezen ( talk) 20:40, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
I noticed that this article has a section about the Armenian genocide, but not about the persecution of Ottoman Muslims or Ottoman genocide. Should it also be mentioned in this article? Jarble ( talk) 20:14, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Genocides in history. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:26, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
This obviously doesn't use the legal definition of genocide (and thus trivializes genocide) and its very loose criteria "events called genocide by a reliable source" allows for selective use of sources for political means. Um, why? Can't we separate it into recognized and unrecognized genocides? Isn't it different when killings are intentional and when they are done by humans rather than diseases?-- Monochrome_ Monitor 21:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I also wonder why Moses is used for history. There is no evidence that there were any jews in Egypt as slaves or in any other way except biblical parables. it would be as historical to use stories from Grimm Brothers as the Bible.
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:48, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims Patetez ( talk) 22:08, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:14, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
If there are up to date, genuinely academic WP:RS demonstrating that genocide is not a descriptor associated with the event, please bring your sources to the table and discuss the content here on the article's talk page. Edit warring content is disruptive and ineffectual. Per WP:BURDEN, it is up to the the party removing sourced content to demonstrate that their sources are correct, and that the sources in use are not. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 04:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
If you read through the lead and alternative definitions, the definitions you are alluding to are not proscriptions to the content of the article, they merely serve as a broad based introduction. On that topic, I suspect that the "Alternate definitions" hatnote should be changed to 'main article' rather than 'see also'.
This discussion is taking us back to the issue of renaming the article (above). If the list is to be proscribed to being a reflection of the CPPCG definition alone, it would have to be renamed to reflect that it is proscribed, and content outside of these definitions would/should be transferred to a WP:SPINOFF article. Essentially, anything pre-dating the 20th century would have to go as it could only be understood as being revisionism and OR. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 04:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
According to R. J. Rummel, genocide has 3 different meanings. The ordinary meaning is murder by government of people due to their national, ethnic, racial, or religious group membership. The legal meaning of genocide refers to the international treaty, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This also includes non-killings that in the end eliminate the group, such as preventing births or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group. A generalized meaning of genocide is similar to the ordinary meaning but also includes government killings of political opponents or otherwise intentional murder. It is to avoid confusion regarding what meaning is intended that Rummel created the term democide for the third meaning
Rummel is a moron, "democide" such a daft term it's no wonder no one uses it. That said, I was surprised to see the 1965–66 slaughter, however horrendous and gargantuan, as genocide. Surely the only definition of genocide we should adhere to is the UN one – I mean, no one's going to be prosecuted for genocide a la Cribb. -- BowlAndSpoon ( talk) 21:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
"Listen up"[ sic], BowlAndSpoon, I'm not particularly concerned as to whether you're convinced that you're WP:SPIDERMAN. The fact that you don't believe there to be anything to discuss does not mean there is nothing worth discussion. If I have to pull you up on WP:PERSONAL again, it will be in a very public venue. Assume good faith, remain civil in discussions, and don't propose simplistic methods of dealing with a vast amount of material as if it were about chucking some 'stuff' over there, and other 'stuff' somewhere else while the proposal you favour remains the
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