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It has been floated by CNBC and Bloomberg i think on June 27, 2008 that Ford, GM and Chrysler will collapse in the next 18 months and probably only Ford will survive. There are a lot of sites that mentioned this, just type it in google.com. I think its financial health is a very important key information to show users of the GM information a clear picture where it is financially. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.128.34.58 ( talk) 07:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Umm, guys.... care to provide reliable sources for your speculation? Chaparral2J ( talk) 16:22, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
It does seem as if some of GM's PR agents were writing some of this page. GM's EV1 was a significant car, but it wasn't the only production electric car from a major car company (and the sentence about this is awful). Ford sold the Ranger EV, Chrysler had the Dodge Caravan EPIC, Fiat offered the Cinquecento electric, PSA offered the Peugeot 106 electric, and the article is TRYING to describe the EV1 as a dedicated electric vehicle, Nissan offered the Altra EV and the Hypermini...both designed from the ground up as electrics.
Would anyone be offened if I removed said line from the article?
holy ******, who wrote this tripe? GM cares about fuel efficiency? What a f***ing joke. this article is awful.
This is not the kind of language you would want to see in an encyclopedia. If you wish to dispute something within the article, please let us know by using appropriate language. Thanks!
And since this is an encyclopedia, you should also try to keep to facts instead of jumping all over articles, bashing them with your own opinions. Your claim that GM doesn't care about fuel efficiency seems somewhat flawed to me though, as the auto market increasingly demands it.
GM is no different than other successful corporations. They must manufacture what people want to purchase. Customers are buying large vehicles, SUVs and trucks. People are not or are only temperarily interest in fuel economy. It is not fair to blame a corporation for giving people what they want.
General Motors has recently announced they plan to be the world leader in fuel economy by 2010.
I absolutely agree that this article reads as if it were written by GM spin doctors. It is laughable at best. -- JJ 04:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
It says that the chinese currnecy is pegged to the dollar, still. Elfuegocaliente 02:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
California has filed lawsuits against six car companies, including GM, for gas emissions leading to global warming. I think this should be added soon if it proves to pan out in the next few days. Jeremyburkhart 05:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy I don't see how that lawsuit will hold up in court. In order for GM or any other auto company to be sued there would have to be overwhelming evidence that their vehicles were causing a purposeful detriment to the enviroment beyond what could be considered normal. Also the people who filed the lawsuit left out coal burning powerplants which pollute in much higher volumes than do passenger cars. 91z4me 11:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
General Motors Corporation has been accused by a variety of consumer advocates, activists, commentators, journalists, and documentary makers of deliberately sabotaging their companies' zero emmision electric vehicle efforts through several methods: failing to market, failing to produce appropriate vehicles, failing to satisfy demand, and using lease-only programs with prohibitions against end of lease purchase. By these actions they have managed to terminate their electric vehicle development and marketing programs despite operators' offers of purchase and assumption of maintenance liabilities.
The process of obtaining GM's first electric vehicle the EV1 was difficult. The vehicle could not be purchased outright. Instead, General Motors offered a closed-end lease for three years, with no renewal or residual purchase options. The EV1 was only available from specialist Saturn dealerships, and only in California.
Before reviewing leasing options, a potential lessee would be taken through a 'pre-qualification' process in order to learn how the EV1 was different from other vehicles. Next came a waiting list with no scheduled delivery date.
A documentary about the demise of the EV1 and other electric vehicles entitled Who Killed the Electric Car? debuted on June 30, 2006. Several weeks before the debut of the movie, the Smithsonian Institution announced that its EV1 display was being permanently removed and the EV1 car put into storage. GM is a major financial contributor to the museum, and both parties denied that this fact contributed to the removal of the display.
According to the interview with Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner in the June 2006 issue of Motor Trend magazine, the cancellation of the EV1 proggram has been one of the worst decision he has ever made. [2]
Lastly, please be sure to include some quotes from the source I mentioned to you, the section you posted without sources throws off our NPOV we're striving for in this article. -- Lucavious 17:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
"Cadillac is number one seller of vehicles over $40,000, proving that GM has the vehicles that real luxury consumers want." So... that's a neutral sentence of encyclopedia-quality these days? Bobbo008 02:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does nearly the whole article read like it was written by a UAW-card-carrying GM employee? Except for the "Controversy" bit, which looks, as another commenter has stated, like an advertisement for the movie about electric vehicles. I came to this article looking for a broader POV than what I found -- for example, has any proper research been conducted into why Honda and Toyota sedans outsell GM ones in GM's home market, the US?
Anonymous 15:19, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
http://www.ordisante.com/2006/09/08/8-things-wrong-with-gm-article-at-wikipedia-2.html
Would anyone scream bloody murder if many of the paragraphs were removed from the mid to lower portions? Why are we bragging about GM's accomplishments over Saturn in quality or the inflation of ratings by their competitors? Lucavious 22:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The infobox says GM was founded in 1908, but the text says 1902 -- anybody know which is correct? Bananafish 20:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't GM also own Holden and Opel? And perhaps we could flesh out the history more... it sounds kinda biased....
Paragraph 3 discusses an urban legend based on Bradford Snell's work about tram lines but then further paragraph report as truth GM WWII involvement also based on work by the same Bradford Snell. What gives? Rmhermen 15:22 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)
This seems a little non-NPOV about the WWII involvement. Implied is that GM's American management willfully supported the Nazi regime AFTER the start of hostilities, which I believe not to be the case. Accounts I've read squarely put the German government in control of German GM subsidiaries during the war years. Anyone got cites pro/con? -- Morven 21:14, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Wasn't Hughes spun off as an independent company a few years ago? Mkweise 06:42, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
No, it was Electronic Data Systems Corporation that became an independent company in 1996. Hughes Aircaft was sold to Raytheon in 1997. Hughes Space & Communications Company was sold to Boeing in 2000. Hughes Electronics' Direct TV and Hughes Network Systems was sold to News Corporation in 2003.
I do have issues with that paragraph the anon removed, though -- I don't like 'alleged' in an article without a source for the allegation. —Morven 10:37, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I support the reversion of the anon's complete removal of these topics, but I do believe that these sections are POV, lack any cites, and should be done better.
For the first paragraph (streetcar conspiracy) we should mention only SOME believe it; I'll edit the article to say so.
For the second, I note the paragraph contains many words on GM's guilt and then one final line saying that GM disclaims responsibility because the factories were seized during the war. That's not really balanced. —Morven 20:13, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
I went ahead and changed the following paragraph wich originally read:
And changed it to:
It's no secret that GM has financial challenges ahead, there was a reasonable section with reliable sources that anonymous users have deleted a few times. It is not obvious why. Perhaps there could be some explanation from the anonymous users... MunchieRonnie 16:25, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think Keep. Reithy 07:58, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
"Chinese government's extensive purchase of U.S. government debt in the form of bonds." This is an overexageration. The Chinese do NOT own a significant part of the US dept. It's large but by no means unusual or worth mentioning. Here is a chart to prove it. here
Uhm, probably because some PR flacks have discovered wikipedia is a 'liability' and pay some newly minted college PR flunkie to come here and erase anything 'controversial', hiding behind wikipedias 'NPV'. so neutral you might as well not have an article in the first place.
Off the topic that others have been speaking about, I wonder why people keep making errors about Pres. Wilson's comments before the congressional committee. He actually said "What is good for the country is good for General Motors and what is good for General Motors is good for the country". This seems both a harmless and not very important statement; it is obviously a simple statement of fact. It does not make GM, and Wilson, look like Military Industrial Complex monsters, which the use of only the second half of his statement might seem to imply. This twisting of meaning of the quote, derived by omotting its first half, is a simple propaganda trick, and the Left has been beating Capitalism with it since it was first made. And it shows up even here, in this site. "Give us this day and our daily illusion"--it doesn't take much to keep people happy.
Does anyone know whether this is true? "Government has also contributed to the industry's structural problems. By one estimate, state governments subsidize foreign transplants such as BMW and Honda plants to the tune of $1,000 per car. And state franchise laws make it prohibitively expensive to rationalize dealer networks and nameplates. Worst of all are clean-air rules that essentially require companies to produce and sell low-pollution passenger cars at a loss, just to offset the environmental damage done by all their trucks and SUVs." [4] I really don't understand how US government can be able to subsidize foreign import when US car manufactures have such a powerful lobby.
I know Oldsmobile is now dead and gone, but shouldn't it get a mention at least? - james_anatidae 06:32, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
Ha, it looks like GM had been paying lightly as employees seemed to have preffered a health security more than a fat monthly cheque. The sad thing is they may end up loosing on health care, even though they took a lean monthly cheque. [5]
I'm disgusted at the Canada comment in this article: "A VEILED EXCUSE", that seems a little biased.
I belive this line from the article is inaccurate, but I'm not 100%:
"Toyota and Honda have also introduced gasoline/electric or diesel/electric hybrid vehicles into their product mix whereas, as of October of 2005, General Motors has not."
This page lists a Chevy and a GMC truck that are hybrids: http://www.gm.com/automotive/innovations/altfuel/vehicles/pickup/hybrid/
I'm not sure when these hybrid truck lines came out, but I thought it was before Oct. 2005. Am I wrong about this? ~~
What's with the section that ends with "By John Gleeson" at the bottom of the article? It seems to have been pasted there completely out of context. -- Closeapple 05:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I am wondering if this is the John Gleeson that works at the Oshawa Truck Assmembly Plant ...
We are currently in the process of running 'test' hybrid vehicles at Oshawa that run on Ethanol.
I noticed that "bespoke" is used twice in this article. This word is incredibly uncommon in the US. I looked up the word on m-w.com, and it seems "custom" or "custom-made" might be more easily understood by the typical US reader, though I'm not 100% sure these words capture the same meaning the author is trying to convey. Thoughts?
Does anyone know a clear, NPOV explanation of GM's pension/ health care problems that we can incorporate into the article? Someone gave a link above which kind of skims over it, but seems to over simplify. Did workers really demand, and GM really agree to, paying unfunded benefits that it seriously hoped would come out of future earnings? MrVoluntarist 04:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
"Due to its highly compensated workforce GM has the highest health care and labor costs in the industry, and some analysts have criticized the company for this."
This seems to be a POV and at least requires a citation (perhaps several), doesn't it? 71.131.209.192 23:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that this gets into complex discussions of how our economy runs and how people pay for mistakes. I feel that almost all discussions have a POV slanted toward the company, for instance, any discussion that uses words like "excessive" to discuss employee pay is slanted, since this pay was granted by the company. You can weasel all you want about the union holding the company hostage, but in the end you executives are paid big bucks to look after the company.
One also almost never hears how the failure of GM management - the colossal, decades long failure, evidenced by their slide in market share - never gets blamed. why is this ?
Came across this Jeremy Clarkson commentary. Too sarcastic/opinionated for the article, but funny nontheless. Clarkson is lamenting the effect GM has had on its Vauxhall subsidiary:
Shouldn't this article mention how gm is supporting Ethanol with it's Live Green go Yellow campaign? Mathiastck 19:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
personally I would describe "General Motors" as a current event. Yes it changes rapidly, but i dont see the relevance of it changing "as the event progresses"
this doesnt quite make sense
GM's variable valve timing system VVT would operate throughout the entire RPM range provide superior performance. Japanese automakers reacted by adding i for intelligence, to do what GM's system had already been doing
Did anyone read this article. It smells of GM friendly bias. Compare this article to ones on other automakers like Toyota, Ford, or Honda.
For example, take a look at the hybrid section.
"GM delivered the first commercial hybrid vehicle and was early innovator in hybrid vehicle development, building Diesel-electric trains since the 1930s and buses since the 1990s (but without stored energy recovery)."
That sentence makes it sound like GM delivered the first commercial passenger car. Also, I'm not exactly sure what a Disel-electric train without stored energy recovery is supposed to say about hybrid.
The article has also had several questionable revisions, such as the removal of Gm's financial troubles. The marketting section is especially suspect, considering how it singles out pro GM articles.
The article also states "Ford was moralistically opposed to credit." while Ford did have a line of credit in that time period.
Marketing problems section was gutted and is now Marketing trends, removing historical quality problems and now it is looking like a corporate puff piece due to IP edits. Looks like GM flack has been here. - Leonard G. 15:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The bias seems pretty severe to me. For example, the marketing section seems to be almost an advertisment for GM, citing statistics and polls that trumpet GM's quality, while disparaging competitors by name.
I agree, some of this section is ridiculous, here's why:
Removed:
"Foreign automakers and their media allies regrouped, and the marketing competition resumed. Foreign automakers tried a different marketing tactic focusing on technology. Once again, foreign automakers were just trying to create perception. Honda valve systems even lacked hydraulic lifters, and Japanese automakers were mostly using rubber timing belts. In the 1980s, Japanese automakers still had a long way to go."
"In 1989, Acura began showing the NSX, which had a variable valve timing system to create the perception that Japan had technology and 'tolerances'. However, in September of 1975, GM had already patented the first Smart Value, the progenitor of today's many versions of variable valve timing."
"GM's variable valve timing system VVT would operate throughout the entire RPM range providing superior performance. Japanese automakers reacted by adding i for intelligence, in a band aid approach to lift the valves to do what GM's more advanced cam timing system had already been doing. On efficiency, the Japanese marketing failed again, GM V-6 and V-8 models lead in their respective class for fuel economy."
The stuff about the electric car doesn't seem notable enough to have such a big section, and it seems more like a plug for the "who killed the electric car" book than anything. Of course I may be biased - I have a hard time swallowing the claim that GM didn't want its electric car program to work in order to support oil companies. How about a little dose of reality - GM doesn't care if oil companies like them. I think they just decided electric cars were a dead end and instead focussed on fuel cells and (later) hybrids. All the rest of this issue smells of hugely POV speculation and conspiracy theory. TastyCakes 22:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a perfect example of GM at work - the whole article stinks of a GM advertising plot to hijack this article to praise themselves.
Perhaps not a hijack, but this article does seem inbalanced to me.
I think there is strong evidence of neutrality issues. The "labor Cost" quote in section 9.1 implies UAW employees earned $81.18/hour in 2006, and nearly $80/hr. now. These numbers are absurd and ridiculous. The "reference" provided for the numbers is an op/ed piece that is union hostile. I am not a UAW wage analyst, but it is my understanding these outrageous numbers are the result of GM's creative math. They add in all the retiree benefits from their decades of downsizing and buyouts into the hourly UAW employee cost. This is creates the impression that UAW employees are grossly overpaid, compared to other auto workers, which is very unfair and very NPOV. There are multiple sites on the web showing true UAW labor for a US built car is around 9% of the true cost. I'm talking about the active labor cost, not retiree benefits. Toyota pays *active* non-UAW employees around $14-$18 an hour in the USA, and UAW employees around $32. Truth is, Toyota built their new, non-UAW plants in poor, rural areas of the USA where $14-$18 an hour is a decent wage. GM's plants are typically older, located in built-up areas where the wages and cost of living are far higher than rural areas. UAW *active* employees form less than 1/3 of GM's workforce. The way GM continually blames these assembly line workers for their executive/management's grotesque failures is an absurdity. This page is a GM propaganda piece. 71.119.74.155 ( talk) 08:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Not according to the wiki on VW group. Anyone care to check this? Just noticed this discrepancy.
There's not even a project page for the deletion request, nor has there been ANY discussion concerning the revising or removal of it. Therefore whoever put it up can do their homework before destroying the credibility of this article. -- Lucavious 00:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Although some commentators have claimed that European manufactures are somewhat disadvantaged by over-regulation, Germany places market share limits on Japanese imports, controlling Japan's ability to manipulate the market.
As a German, I hear this for the first time, and additionally, Toyota sales are soaring in Germany. The statement seems untrue to me and doesn't state a source. I placed {{Fact}} behind the phrase, but if it turns out to be untrue, I'd like to delete it - comments? -- Philipp Krebs 01:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
"In 1962 half the cars sold in America were made by GM. Now its market share is roughly 25 percent" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/29/AR2005042901385.html Shouldn't a decline like this get a mention?
Not like that, no. Its far too simplistic and ignores other factors, namely that in 1962 the playing field was dominated by the Big Three and a handful of failing indepedents (Studebaker, Packard, Nash) with virtually no imports to speak of. Fast-forward to today where nearly fifty different marques are sold in the United States and the rote number of competitors is far greater than it was in the past. Simply quoting that figure makes it seem like a failing of General Motors without the realization that market dynamics are what changed. No automaker can ever hope to achieve such total domination of the US market again. -- 24.96.69.81 21:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The electric car controversy should not appear under GM's main page, it should be relegated to the page under the EV1 automobile. The fact that this controversy stems from a movie that has been in theaters for almost three months and is distributed by SONY has earned under $1.5 million dollars doesn't justify it being on GM's main page when in earned $192.604 Billion last year. Why isn't the controversy on Honda Motor Company or Toyota's main page, they were involved in this so called "conspiracy".
The fact of the failure of the electric car is that for ANY automaker to be succesful they must be able to sell to the average American. The average American 10 years ago only earned $30,000 a year and the lease price was $300 for a car that you could not drive long distance. Many Americans needed a vehicle that could drive long distances because discount airlines were not prevelant 10 years ago and flying was expensive. You must look at the economics of it to understand why the concept failed, to many editors don't understand economics and just see it as GM being a big bully.
This is merely anti-GM sentiment, if you don't want to buy a GM vehicle that is fine, there are plenty of other high caliber automakers that make great vehciles. But it is completely unfair to hold GM responsible for the failure of electric automobiles.
A lot of the article, esp. the history, seems to read it like it was taken from the PR department. This is a notification that I will be making a lot of changes soon to remove what I believe to be POV violations and make the information more neutral. Current version as of this post is [7]. I'm not going to put a POV tag on it yet because I don't think it's fair to do so until I have the time to document the problems on the talk page. MrVoluntarist 13:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Here is the comparison of some changes I made: [8]
Justification of changes: I mentioned the role of their historic pension underfunding in the pension crisis. The article blamed the pension crisis in part on rate hikes, but those would help the pension fund, though it is correct they would possibly hurt GM's ability to do business. I clarified that the GM hybrid advantages were based on their estimates and not independently confirmed. I removed the part about health care moving their business to Canada. That claim is so far only supported by people of one ideology, and such a person was the only source for the claim. It should only be re-included if both sides can be explained, as well as why foreign competitors don't prefer Canada for that reason. The article also mentioned exchange rates, and I clarified that this only applied to imports, and not competitors who manufactured in America. MrVoluntarist 09:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Minor Edit to the article concerning some bias:
One, the part about Germany restricting imports has had no citation for quite some time, and was removed. Two, in the same section of the article, the claim that foreign automakers "transplant" their workers into America create the illusion that the cars were "american made" is false and was deleted. It has no citation and in fact foreign Automakers do use American workers at their plants, who do not receive foreign health benefits. Also deleted was the statement that the fictional transplants were "less skilled" and lower paid that Union Workers. "Less Skilled" is an subjective statement and no citations were made to prove it anyway.
I revised the part about foreign workers and healthcare to say "Also, foreign automakers have health-care costs paid for by their respective governments." It then leads into the Canada portion of the section, and is now much less POV.
Oh uh, those edits were made by me, Scryer360. Dont have an signature lined up yet so....
I removed a section that claimed GM cars of the 80's had better quality than imports of the era. I'm sorry, but go look on every other quality study of the time period and you'll see that GM is far, FAR behind Toyota, Honda and others in reliablity. The section that claimed one, ONE researcher claimed GM cars were better is non-conclusive considering 99% of studies in this field go against his results. If that section bears mentioning, then I think it's fair to include the ones that say GM was far behind in quality at that time.
The article lacks basic financial info: Assets, liabilities, who owns the shares (and thus the company), how many shares are outstanding, etc. At least, there should be a link to this information.
I came to the article looking for a list of GM's largest shareholders.
This article reads like a promotional advertisement for General Motors, which is, of course, ridiculous. Particularly the "Corporate Issues" section is far too kind. I personally will remove that section if no one does anything to change it to a neutral point of view. Nicholasink 19:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I fee lit should be noted somewhere here that the electromotive devision of General Motors builds trains, in particular the highly successful [[[British Rail Class 66]]. User:Tom walker 21:55 GMT 1 October 2006
I can't find a source for the figures at the moment, but I've read repeatedly over the years in publications such as "The Wall Street Journal" that Volkswagen, not GM, is the top foreign automaker in China.
I'd second that, I think there is a good source in the VW group article.
Wouldn't DaimlerChryler AG actually be the number 1 in the world since it makes 149.78 billion euros, which would make their revenue about 6 billion more than GMs? GMs revenue is only 192 billion, putting them behind the 198 billion that DaimlerChrysler gets because of Currency Conversion. Zodia 14:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
No no, No.1 Automaker status determined by number of cars sold, not nessicarily profit made. GM sold more cars, even though it made much less money (for any number of reasons, take your pick). So you are correct, DaimlerChrysler pulled in a hell of a lot more money, but it still did not sell as many cars.
Think margins. *****
I was under the impression that in the 1950s, GM was actually an innovative technology leader - can anyone supply some refs to back this up ? I was also under the impression tha the northstar V8 was actually a technology powerhouse (I am def NOT pro GM - just credit where it is due).
But you are wrong about the Northstar V8. When it first premiered, it was considered something special, but not now. The reason it was considered special was because GM had (finally) started making Dual-Overhead-Cam V8s, something Japan and Germany had done for years.
Today however, DOHC is nothing spectacular. In fact most foreign competitors engines are DOHC, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, they all use DOHC. Even Nissans big Titan pickup uses a DOHC design.
And DOHC is not even considered an achievement anymore: Bugatti's Veyron is technically quad-overhead-cam, and Ferrari and Lambo are using triple-overhead-cam designs in V8 and V10 engines.
Also, cylinder deactivation, something GM is just now touting as something new, has been standard on the Honda Civic for years. Just ask Honda or even better pry open one of those engines (the ones I did were a 99 and a 97 Civic, one an Si and one a DX I think)(the models of the car, not the engines themselves, I dont know Honda's engine names).
Signed by Scryer_360, who forgets how to use the sig creator thingy.
Cylinder deactivation was pioneered by General Motors in the 1980s in a variety of Cadillacs under the guise of a V8-6-4 engine. It failed because the technology simply wasn't there to facilitate seamless, reliable deactivation. Today, the technology is there and GM and Honda are leaders in it followed by Chrysler. Also, whoever is claiming the Honda Civic had cylinder deactivation is full of crap. A select number of J-block V6s in 2006 model year Pilots, Odysseys, and Accord Hybrids feature Variable Cylinder Management. A 4cyl with variable displacement technology would be woefully inefficient if not supplemented by another powerplant and would certainly not be fitted to a late-90s Civic DX, one of the cheapest cars available at the time. C'mon now. At least be plausible.
In regards to the Northstar engine, remember that it was originally marketed as the Northstar System that incorporated 4T80-E HydroMatic transmission, road-sensing suspension, Bosch 4-wheel ABS discs, and Magnasteer as well as the 32v Northstar V8. What made the Northstar truly unique was its limp-home mode that allowed it to drive in short hops for around 100 miles without coolant by using deactivated cylinder banks as air pumps.
Seriously, guys, all this info is even available right here on Wikipedia. -- 24.96.69.81 20:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This article, near a mentioning about GM trucks, claims the current fuel economy leader is Toyota.
This is wrong, Toyota is perceived as having good fuel economy but the fleet average for best fuel economy is Honda, do some math.
Scryer_360 03:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
bsd
This image had a tagging error, which caused the caption not to appear, and i corrected it. But it stated something I found dubious: "EV1s crushed by General Motors shortly after production". Any thoughts?--
Benstown
02:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Much of this should be removed or made into another article. For one, far too much of the history section is taken up by it, and secondly, it presents a negative bias towards the company. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.61.15.101 ( talk) 05:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC).
The physical size of this inclusion is only a small percentage of the overall article. It is fully referenced and refers to a period during which over 50 million people died. It is not an inconsequental reference or activity and remains an overlooked aspect of US corporate history (akin to IBM's involvment). This should not be swept under the carpet no matter how distasteful and, as it is factual and relevant, should be a part of the overall article. Northlight 23:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I tried to edit the references because one of them about the Naziness of GM is actually available to link to: Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/36370067.html?dids=36370067:36370067&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Nov+30%2C+1998&author=Michael+Dobbs&pub=The+Washington+Post&edition=&startpage=A.01&desc=Ford+and+GM+Scrutinized+for+Alleged+Nazi+Collaboration but when clicking edit of the references it lost all references info in the edit textarea and I would have had to of started over. Is this a bug? Can someone add the link I gave above to the reference (I believe #2 in the list)?
The Nazi part is very biased against GM. It states that the German government took over day to day in 1939 (as the link I provided confirms) then a paragraph starts out "Nevertheless, while General Motors has claimed that its German operations were outside its control during World War II, this assertion appears to be contradicted by available evidence." That sentence is a contradiction. The only linkable reference to the post states GM lost control in 1939 so how can it just be a "claim" by GM that operations were out of their control during WWII? It was out of their control.
Interesting that 2 of the 3 paragraphs of the washington post article are harmful to GM and the one paragraph from the post article which is left out of wikipedia is the one which is less harmful to GM. E.G. "Both Ford and General Motors declined requests for access to their wartime archives. Ford spokesman John Spellich defended the company's decision to maintain business ties with Nazi Germany on the grounds that the U.S. government continued to have diplomatic relations with Berlin up until the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. GM spokesman John F. Mueller said that General Motors lost day-to-day control over its German plants in September 1939 and "did not assist the Nazis in any way during World War II.""
Might as well throw that one in there since all other info of the washington post article seems to be in the wiki.
It is just NOT true that Germany would not have been able to invade Poland without the help of GM. It is true that GM supplied the Wehrmacht with trucks which were essential for a successful invasion. But these trucks were all Opel-models, a former German company which GM took over after the big depression, just ten years before. Further the Wehrmacht had several other opportunities where they could get these trucks from. I demand that this part of the article will be removed!
This article needs to mention Poletown. General Motors was very involved in a case that is now defining eminent domain, a major political issue. Please include some mention of the legal case and GM's participation. If this article is included in Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States, we need to include how the company's policy is shaping US law.
Efkeathley 12:51, 06 March 2007 (EST)
Since all of the cars used as disguises for the Autobots are from GM, there should be some mention of that in this article. Excuse me if I happened to miss it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FingManiac ( talk • contribs) 04:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
I've looked through this article and I've found nothing about the talks with DaimlerChrysler to buy Chrysler Corp. Someone should add it to the article. By the way, if GM does buy Chrysler, what would the do with Chrysler and Dodge? Jeep they could easily integrate into their lineup, yet Chrysler competes with Buick, and Dodge with Chevrolet. But then again, GMC competes with Chevrolet, too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.157.31.63 ( talk) 02:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
Since this has been rated 'B-class', yet no one has posted related complaints or suggested improvements, I will begin some:
I suggest the Economics section be removed for the following reasons:
Elsewhere, I feel that the EV controversy section would be more appropriate in its own article, perhaps including other automakers efforts, with a smaller summary in the GM page in a reintegrated/reworked history section. The entire 98-year history of the company and countless models have been moved to allow coverage of a relatively minor current event involving a single experimental low-run model to remain here. I know some will claim it is not a 'minor' issue, but keep in mind it is hardly the first controversy GM has faced, yet others are NOT covered here or even in the history article. Ralph Nader's Unsafe at Any Speed for example, is not mentioned at all, but was a far more important event for the company and automotive history in general. Notice that the EV issue is also brought up, somewhat extensively considering the information is covered elsewhere in the article, in the Environment and alternative vehicles portion of the 'Programs' section, and arguably in a POV manner. A separate EV article would allow for a fuller explanation of the issues while not cluttering up the GM page with propaganda from both sides.
'Social Policies' could use some work, too, I am sure there are far more than two (currently uncited) items worth mentioning, positive or negative. if not, this section should be removed. - Scottr76 06:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
This title is based on ANNUAL sales, not quarterly. Until sales figures for all of 2007 are released, GM still holds this title, even if Toyota has beat them for one quarter, or even 3. Source: Detroit News/AP article regarding Toyota's 1Q 2007 sales results. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scottr76 ( talk • contribs) 14:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
Who on earth is editing this to make it seem as if GM is still the largest manufacturer? It's an accepted standard that we are measuring "largest" by number of vehicles sold, NOT revenue, or profit. In fact this person has changed all of the major motor manufacturers, including Ford and Toyota! This is very misleading and should be corrected. Unless we are about to change the way in which we measure largest?
The guy at the top is right, Gm still holds that title. It is judged annually and can't be changed until this whole years sales are up. But Toyota does hold the title for the 1st quarter so I'll post that instead, but NOT for the year. In fact, if the Gm talks with DaimlerChrysler to buy Chrysler fall through, Toyota will not gain that title for a few years at the least.
I edited the first sentence to reflect BOTH sales volume (which is be measured quarterly) and production volume (measured annually). I would include sales revenue, but the source listed for that had no such information, only sales and production. If someone has a reference for revenue, that could be included, but not at the expense of the others. I think this is the best compromise between the two sides, rather than an edit war going on every time one company sells a few more cars than the other, or produces more, or whatever. There's no reason both methods can't be shown here. However, full-year production volume is typically used to declare the ranking of 'largest', as is written referenced article, and numerous others.-- Scottr76 22:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
As further defense of this edit, while the old version (showing sales revenue only) was called 'simple and sweet', it has the following problems:
The figures — and sales growth rates — indicate that Toyota could overtake GM as the No. 1 automaker
Please note that it says 'could overtake', not 'has overtaken'. It clearly states the sales volume from last year, which supports with hard data that GM is largest by annual production.
If it is changed to 'largest by sales revenue', I think it would be reasonable to request a source both for that information and that such a title is an accepted standard by which to judge the size of an automaker.-- Scottr76 03:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
First the newspaper link doe snot work and also GM will continue to state they are the largest just like Toyota may also do the same and until we get the absolute facts we will keep it like this. Sparrowman980 05:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
include:...the world's largest largest automaker by sales revenue as of the second quarter of 2007 [2] (ahead of Toyota Motor Corporation). Toyota has, however, outsold GM in the first six months of the year.
Agreed, it is production volume, not revenue, sorry for not having noted that. Probably happened because I mearely modified an existing sentence, which was earlier citing another website.
Quite honestly, there isnt much I disagree with, in what you say. Like I stated earlier, the best option is to leave it at the last available annual data, which is for the year 2006. The article is afterall about General motors an automaker, not it's sales through the last few months. We can, elsewhere in the article, mention that the current trend indicates Toyota is going to overtake/ has already overtaken GM.
The repetition of largest, well, I myself didnt like it, but added it for the reason you mentioned (seeming bias against Toyota). AJ-India 07:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Why GM-AvtoVaz isn't mentioned in the article? On the GM homepage it is also not mentioned. But at this page it exists. I'm very puzzled. -- Kuemmjen 17:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
We need to know there profit there employees and the rest and we all know it all down. ( Sparrowman980 05:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC))
Now what we need is the end of the 2006 facts.( Sparrowman980 07:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC))
Is it considered too early by Wikipedia standards to insert mention of the Chevrolet Volt into the "Electric Car" section? I know that the vehicle is upcoming and not near production yet, but it could be mentioned as another effort by GM.
The Federal Reserve does not base its actions on the stock market. It did not increase interest rates to quell the stock market but to keep inflation risks contained. The interest rate increases may have quelled the stock market, but the Federal Reserve does not increase interest rates just to quell the stock market. If that were the case, then in 2007 the stock market should have been quelled from the Fed increasing rates from a low of 1% to its current 5.25%.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pf/pf.htm
Hi, my name is Christopher Barger, and I work for General Motors' communications. No, I have never been here before; no, I have never edited anything on Wikipedia before; and no, I am not here to get into a debate with anyone over their edits or point of view. I just had an update.
One of my colleagues brought to my attention today that the list of our Board of Directors on this page is out of date. I have the most current list below. Given that there's been so much controversy over companies editing their own pages, and even so much cynicism about whether GM comms people have been spinning here, I figured that my making even such an inocuous edit as updating our BoD might be troublesome, so I am asking the community: Would it breach any protocols for me to update the BoD list? If not, could someone please make the edit to reflect the most current Board as listed below?
Thanks for your time and any guidance you have.
Christopher Barger General Motors Communications
GM Board of Directors (per 2007 proxy):
Percy N. Barnevik Erskine B. Bowles John H. Bryan Armando M. Codina Erroll B. Davis, Jr. George M.C. Fisher Karen Katen Kent Kresa Ellen J. Kullman Philip A. Laskawy Kathryn V. Marinello Eckhard Pfeiffer G. Richard Wagoner, Jr. Christopher Barger 18:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone verify whether the following brands were all the same model?
Nova (Chevrolet) Omega (Oldsmobile) Ventura (Pontiac) Apollo (Buick)
The cars were all similar, and notice that when the names are arranged as above, the first letters spell "Nova" in an acrostic.
John Paul Parks ( talk) 14:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I feel that the annual net income, as taken from the annual report, is what should be used here, however, it seems a couple of editors feel it should be the quarterly results (and, i might add, neglect to even provide a source for their numbers). The rest of the companies in the Dow Jones Industrial Average use the annual net income, and I feel that GM should remain consistent with that. Is there any kind of consensus for what should be used?-- Scottr76 20:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I am very certain that the history of labour relations with General Motors extend long before the September 2007 strike, which is the only thing commented on it the section titled "Labor Relations". Should the section be expanded to include the history of GM labour relations? Should it be retitled "September 2007 strike"? Should the text be deleted and the reader be directed to the article on the 2007 General Motors strike? What should be done with that section? Respectfully, SamBlob 20:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick note: Daewoo is still actively sold in US with brand new 2008 models available. They are no longer actively marketed but are still available for purchase at many larger Saab dealers (and some others). I've re-added it into the list of active lines.
As for Geo, they are now a sub-brand of Chevy. I agree that they are no longer their own line. That's why I marked it as a sub-brand. The Chevy Geo M, Chevy Geo Lt, and Chevy Geo ECO are all available for purchase from larger dealers. I've added the notation to the defunct list rather than the active list, I believe that should cause no controversy. Lostinlodos ( talk) 22:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=prev&oldid=56195585
Straight from Wikipedia scanner. The whois:
OrgName: General Motors Corporation OrgID: GMC-20 Address: 200 Renaissance Center City: Detroit StateProv: MI PostalCode: 48265 Country: US
NetRange: 198.208.0.0 - 198.208.255.255
This is totally absurd. I'm tagging this as POV immediately.
67.142.130.24 ( talk) 11:06, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Toyota has recently moved up in sales and is now the top seller. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.25.209 ( talk) 22:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
== THE BIG MOVE Toyota has sold more motor vehicles than the leading company -- 71.10.25.209 ( talk) 22:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)Christian Brown
In the biofuel section, there is nothing about Brazilian gasoline/ethanol Flexfuel engines. GM was one of the first carmakers to offer flexible-fuel engines in that country, and had ethanol-only engines in their lineup for decades. Part of that knowledge has been used by Saab in their Biopower engines. Can someone research a little more to expand that section? -- NaBUru38 ( talk) 03:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
In the interest of article stability and 3RR violations, is there a more agreeable way to include 2007 results and its implications? Since the article is meant to be encyclopedic, it seems the intro should discuss GM's overall, historical presence, with a reference to 2007's results, then include a section further down about the controversial results and the implications sourcing per WP:RS as this is a controversial/contested area. The WaPo article seem to be the most reliable source used so far; blogs, topix, GM annual reports are not considered WP:WP and used only after discussion and concensus. Flowanda | Talk 22:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Once again, as per the New York Times, USA Today, Wards Auto World, Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal and a myriad of others, I am listing GM as the worlds largest automaker by sales for calendar year 2007. To the idiot who keeps changing this on the GM as well as the Toyota page, stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.143.150 ( talk) 08:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Since it seems like the more eyes we have on this article, the better chance we have of achieving consensus and stability, I made a request here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles#Eyes on General Motors. Respond here or there as you see fit. Thanks. Flowanda | Talk 03:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
First off: GM beat Toyota (9,369,000 vs. 9,366,000) vehicles in 2007; but I will admit that this week's news is not encouraging as far as them keeping their now razor thin lead. Secondly: GM is working on a number of new fronts for future growth; Electric Vehicles, Regular Hybrids, Plug-In Hybrids, Electonic Controls of nearly all systems, Gasoline and Diesel Engine Efficiency and Green Technology, and perhaps most significantly of all they are increasing their manufacturing presence in areas of the world with the most potential for future growth (such as China). JeepAssembler ( talk) 01:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 01:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no flag waving; just stating the facts; which Toyota itself admitted (I believe in the U.S.A. Today newspaper earlier this month). And it IS a big deal who is the World's Number One Automobile Manufacturer (and has been ever since sales of the Model T really took off in 1914; in fact; GM's displacing Ford for that title in 1931 was a source of consternation at the latter company; Edsel Ford wound up getting in debt to bankers, whom his father Henry hated). And in fact there are a lot of people who buy only based on brand loyalty for whatever reasons; being the biggest company was/is one of GM's sources of customer loyalty. Unfortunately, a lot people in the United States have become just as attached to import makes (including some very stupid people where I work) and then whine about the economy when good paying U.A.W. jobs are lost. JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, which automaker made and sold more vehicles IS very important; If Toyota passes up G.M. in those regards it will be one anecdotal signal that world power is shifting from North America to East Asia; much as the mass production of the Model T Ford was one of the signs that world power was shifting from Western Europe to North Ameriaca a century ago. JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
You should do anecdotes; everyone should be concerned about the future and how it will effect their lives: Standard of Living, etc. JeepAssembler ( talk) 22:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 22:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I gave objective and verifiable information about production, sales, technologies, and location of production (which can be checked in newspapers and magazines). But evidently some people took it as editorializing; even though I mentioned that things are changing very fast. JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The edit-warring on the numbers continues. I had provided a recent source which seemed to support GM's small margin as top-seller [9]; this was promptly reverted. I've also noticed this source [10], which was provided earlier this month by another contributor. It, too, has been reverted in favor of sources which pre-date the more recent findings. Same edit war occurs on the Toyota page, also relying on information that might not be up-to-date. An explanation for the reverts would be welcome. JNW ( talk) 23:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I guess you mean 3,000,000 but I don't think it is written in the link you provide in note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.6.29.54 ( talk) 08:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
I am Ron Cox, retired Delco Electronics (Delphi) in 2001. I am completely new to Wikipedia, This is my first talk ever there. But with the help of my friend Phil Crosno in California, we proposed to add the history of our electronics development for GM racing engines to this site. Specifically I would like to see the history starting with the first engine management systems installed experimentally in the 1986-1987 seasons on Penski team cars through the Chevy V8s and Aurora engines.
Any thoughts on organization? Should this be a new section or part of the existing GM auto racing?
Ron, W9kfb
W9kfb ( talk) 09:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
There is an article in a respected magazine (Automotive Engineering, March 2008; pages 34 to 37) that discusses how General Motors and several other OEMs (Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen were also named in the article) are currently working on HCCI technology, convinced that it may be the next big thing for Internal Combustion Engines. They use gasoline but find a way to completely mix the air and fuel (hence the term homogenous); which causes the mixture to combust under pressure without a spark, theoretically combining gasoline's lower cost with diesel's greater efficiency. But without the SOx or NOx emissions resulting from the higher temperatures of the gas engine. Supposedly much of the technological infrastructure exists already (such as gasoline direct fuel injection).
But techical difficulties remain before cars can be produced with HCCI engines; it will take continuous computer monitoring of the pressure, concentration of fuel, and combustion chamber's internal temperature to control this inherently unstable process (Just slight variations in any of these parameters will cause no ignition at all). Finally, an HCCI engine will sometimes function as a normal Spark-Ignition engine; the control systems will also need to monitor and actuate this transition as well. JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
General motors is the "second" largest Automaker after Toyota. Please refrain from posting your own personal opinions, I understand alot of americans are upset but facts are facts, and should be included in wikipedia. Dwilso 12:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe some discussion is warranted for this. As is currently referenced very early in the article, Toyota overtook GM for the first quarter of 2008 in global sales. However, is there a better way of wording it, and also, is it something that needs to be changed on the basis of a single quarter instead of year-by-year totals? Ayocee ( talk) 23:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I find it surprising that you can talk about GM without mentioning much about the history of its collective bargaining, and without ever mentioning the Flint Sit-Down Strike, which was a pivot point in his history and the history of organized labor. It's like there was no history, bargaining or otherwise, before 2007. 7&6=thirteen ( talk) 22:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC) Stan
IMO this article should at least mention the current CAW strike. -- Gordon Ecker ( talk) 23:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
This article claims GM is the 'world's largest automaker' which is exactly the same claim made in the article about Toyota. The Toyota claim is backed up by citations however, the GM claim isn't.
Incidentally the phrase 'world's largest' needs defining since it could mean anything for example, most employees, largest profit, largest turnover, most production plants, most vehicles produced, most vehicles sold, etc.
~~'BS detector'~~ 2nd July 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 07:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
GM's perch atop the global sales leader charts ended earlier this year, and it is highly unlikely it will regain the spot in time to claim the title for calendar year 2008. It is deceptive to use terms like "has been" which imply "ongoing" under such circumstances, unless additional information about Toyota is provided. That information was removed, so I changed the phrasing to From 1911-2007, GM was the world's largest automaker as measured by global industry sales. If you change it back to "has been" please restore the information about Toyota. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 23:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
With reference to the current opening paragraph, what does 'global industry sales' mean? Does it mean the selling of 'global industries' or 'industry sales' around the globe? if it is the former, I don't believe GM has sold ANY 'global industries' and if it is the later, what is an 'industry sale'?
Wouldn't 'as measured by the number of vehicles sold annually' be less ambiguous?
The link that is provided (#7) actually states the opposite of the implied claim. If anyone actually bothers to read the article they will see that it says, "the slowdown in the United States market had led to a first-quarter sales decline that gave Toyota the early lead in this year’s global sales race".
~~BS detector~~ 7th July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 16:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
GM was the annual leader in the most recent official statistics, and that is what should be stated in the article lead, not speculation that Toyota is about to overtake it. However, I think the lead should include something on the serious financial problems GM is facing, including large scale layoffs and the huge loss booked in the last fiscal year (I believe the largest loss booked by a company in a single year ever). TastyCakes ( talk) 17:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes Gr1st I agree, that is because ‘currently number 1’ doesn’t mean anything. Just like ‘global industry sales’ it could mean almost anything. Unless a clearly defined phrase is used, readers will infer whatever they want.
As I suggested earlier, 'as measured by the number of vehicles sold annually' would end the confusion over ‘annual sales’ versus ‘last quarter’ sales. The inclusion of the word ‘vehicle’ is important because both GM and Toyota sell many other things besides vehicles. For all we know ‘industry sales’ could include snacks from vending machines in GM showrooms.
~~'BS detector'~~ 10th July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 01:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=au.TL_ofjGuM&refer=home
GM's $15.5 Billion Loss (2Q 2008)Is Third-Biggest in a Century and Wikipedia is mum! What a fine encylopedia !!!
Grüsse aus Deutschland. 79.210.122.160 ( talk) 22:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Where do they keep getting this money to lose? Comradeash ( talk) 00:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Who introduced planned obsolescence into production? I'm thinking it was Harley Earl, but... Add it here, here, & here, if you can name him. Thanks. (We can safely rule out Henry...) TREKphiler hit me ♠ 21:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC) Moefuzz ( talk) 05:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
http://laramie.willshireltd.com/DynamicObsolescence.html
moe Moefuzz ( talk) 05:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to let the editors of this page know that I had an editor ask for help concerning the article, seen here and here. Feel free to take these comments for what they are. Of course, there is always trouble with this sort of thing, and having not read the article I cant make an opinion for myself, but usually if someone finds something wrong with an article, then there usually is something wrong :/ Thanks for your time and any improvements you all can make! :) « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 04:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Why do we even have this section? Certainly it doesn't need expanding. For an article on a hundred-year old company - one of the largest companies in the world, this incident seems to minor to warrant much article space. Rmhermen ( talk) 22:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
It apears GM is going sadly bancrupt now [ [12]]. [ [13]] -- 86.29.249.32 ( talk) 10:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
"GM has prided its research and prototype development of hydrogen powered vehicles"
This seems bias to me. Things that might be hurtful to GM's image, like downsizing and strikes seem to be underrepresented and taboo.
C41-8W 11/27/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by C41-8W ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
This article, nor the history article for GM, mention when General Motors moved from Flint to Detroit. Can someone do some research and find this? It's a very important date, because its the start of when GM went from being a local/regional company, to a national and global corporation. -- Criticalthinker ( talk) 10:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
It is a little redundant to talk about "Who Killed the Electric Car" in both Electric Car Issues and in Electric Car. Also, I believe that the EV1 does not have to have that big of a space in this article, since it has its own article about it.-- 'Vette Dude1 ( talk) 01:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/bob-lutz-to-ret.html
Bob Lutz, GM Vice Chairman – Global Product Development, will retire at the end of 2009. In the interim, he will move into a new role, effective 1 April 2009, as Vice Chairman and Senior Advisor to continue to provide strategic input into GM’s global design and key product initiatives.
Tom Stephens, currently Executive Vice President, Global Powertrain and Global Quality, will become Vice Chairman – Global Product Development, reporting to President and Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson. In this new assignment, Stephens will maintain his responsibility for overseeing GM’s global quality activity.
I didn't see any Bio for him at Thomas_Stevens. -- Jake ( talk) 18:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I decided to flag the Advertising 2008–2009 section for needing updating: Every statement in that section has since already come and gone and thus no longer future but past events. I'm sure noone would object to it, and I assume the references would remain as is. Either way, the rest of the article stays current and once the job is finished the flag can come down. Not too much work. -Alan 24.184.184.130 ( talk) 02:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The introduction does not adequately summarize the article's contents. It is slanted toward recent events. Synchronism ( talk) 00:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I think the intro is perfect. The first paragraph discusses when the company was founded, what it makes, how much and where. The second paragraph discusses very important recent material related to the possible impending collapse of the company and the filing for bankruptcy of one its divisions (Saab). By no means should the second paragraph be moved from the lead. Facts707 ( talk) 16:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Calamitybrook, who are you to decide whether that section had merit? Next time, how about if you don't have an improvement, you just leave it alone and wait for someone to fix it? That section might have needed work, but who are you to delete even the basis for it? I don't feel like it was your place to just delete the whole section because you disagreed with the content. Please, next time just edit it up so that it seems correct, or leave it alone. Unless you're a moderator and it was violating some kind of rule or something, don't try to squelch opposing viewpoints. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kemrin ( talk • contribs) 11:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
This section may be ok considering the recent events. 69.251.135.219 ( talk) 21:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
While this section contains a detailed timeline of events, it almost completely fails to mention GM's reaction to... No mention of the plant closings and idle-ings, layoff, buyouts, announced marquee closures, union renegotiations. Where is the mention of the actions GM has taken or announced? Rmhermen ( talk) 03:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
That's a strong assumption. 69.251.135.219 ( talk) 21:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
The update to the GM info template at the top changed the net income figure to $-6.0 billion from the previous figure of about $-30 billion. The new figure, however, is not the correct figure for use; The negative 6 billion dollars are first quarter net earnings for 2009, whereas the older figure, as well as all the other earnings figures in the template, are full-year 2008 statistics. In general, this inaccuracy is not acceptable, but because it's the general practice in corporation articles' templates to use the most recent full-year statistics, all from the same year, I'm changing back the Q1 2009 net income figure to the calendar year 2008 figure to match the others, rerouting citation [2] to the 2008 calendar year reports, and I will also recommend that, despite pending release of other statistics for Q1 2009, we don't change the template to single-quarter earnings reports and statistics, even if all the relevant data is had, because the norm is full year statistics.-- Merechriolus ( talk) 01:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
<a href=
http://www.autofinance247.com> Auto Finance </a>
The infobox says: Employees - 252,000 (2008)[2]. Is this the current number as well, or has it changed with any significance? How are we gonna know the numbers in two, three months when the company has changed so dramatically? 83.108.225.137 ( talk) 12:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I also just noticed the info box says 252,000 however the opening paragraph says 244,500. Which is the correct number? Bgautrea ( talk) 14:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
The bankruptcy of General Motors is scheduled for 0800 EDT 1 JUN 2009. [14] -- John Nagle ( talk) 22:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be an article on the GM bankruptcy, like there is for Chrysler? Chrysler bankruptcy 70.29.208.129 ( talk) 13:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
At the top of the page, it says this was the fourth largest, while in the Bankruptcy section at the bottom it says it is the third largest. Which is it? -- Gimmethegepgun ( talk) 17:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Before the court documents were actually filed, news sources were saying the third, and that is what most news sources who simply published the stories that they had prepared ahead of time reported. When I started n:U.S. manufacturer General Motors declares bankruptcy, I took the assets figure reported, by Bloomberg, that were in the actual filing, rather than estimates made ahead of time, and a table of prior bankruptcies from New Generation Research. GM ranked below the third and above the fourth in the NGR table. Ironically, as I was writing the Wikinews article, NGR updated its table, listing GM fourth. Since then, other news sources, such as the one cited in this article in these edits, have also done the same arithmetic as I and NGR did, and found it to be the fourth, not third. Uncle G ( talk) 19:03, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Someone keeps putting up this stuff about GM helping the Nazis. Which would be very interesting an all, but the reference sites are not what I would consider legitimate. Hell one of them is made to look like a news paper website, which its not, and the other two are some random conspiracy theory sites. Can someone please delete this?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.126.136 ( talk) 02:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I've moved the "Development of electronics for GM auto racing" section out into its |own article. It was way too long and detailed for a very niche part of GM (electronics for open-wheel racing) to be included on the main General Motors page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Polpo ( talk • contribs) 23:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
The news have it that General Motors as of today has split into New GM and Old GM — New GM, containing Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, and GMC, and Old GM, containing designated bad assets such as Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, Saab — and Old GM to be headed (and beheaded) by Al Koch. My suggestion is to keep the article - and the topic about the historic automaker, and create two new articles New GM and Old GM for the "new" companies started today. Dedalus ( talk) 20:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
GM will not be remembered for its fuel efficient cars, but for its iconic cars. Surely, a picture of an old car would be better than yet another hybrid? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.36.241.5 ( talk) 08:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the second sentence of the introduction should be changed from "It is the world's second-largest automaker..." to "It was the world's second-largest automaker ... in 2008". In the current year, they have fallen behind German Volkswagen (and possibly other companies as well). -- Roentgenium111 ( talk) 19:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Some of the citations are just bare URLs, often long ones. I've been fixing them up, but don't have time to do all of them right now. Please help. And if you put a reference in, use the proper citation template, please.
I switched the reflist back to single-column mode until this is done. That's temporary. Otherwise, we get text on top of text, which looks awful. As soon as the remaining bad refs are cleaned up, we can go back to 3 columns of references. Thanks. -- John Nagle ( talk) 21:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Should we put into the intro, GM, or General Motors, is also refered to by the news media as "Government Motors" BronxNY ( talk) 14:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to put the "Corporate restructuring" section, which covers the 2006-2008 period, above the 2008-2009 section. They're both timelines, but out of sequence. Some of the history could be reordered, too, to bring it into time sequence. Comments? -- John Nagle ( talk) 17:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
GM's income statements say that 2008 operating profit was -21 billion, not positive like it says on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.49.30.56 ( talk) 02:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Is it possible to get an exact source for this? The Income Statement for General Motors Corporation at hotStocked.com gives annual gross operating profit to 12/2008 as +8,390 Million dollars. It does give the Total Net Income for the year as -30,860 Million dollars, but I can't find -21 billion anywhere. JamesBWatson ( talk) 08:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
The Cadillac page suggests that GM bought Cadillac in 1905, but the GM page suggests 1909. Can someone research/correct one of these? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.161.22 ( talk) 22:06, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I corrected it - obvious error (correct in GM section of same article) as GM did not exist in 1905. Possible confusion with date of merging with Leland's other company. 99.246.4.248 ( talk) 00:57, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The introduction currently says, "In 2008, 8.35 million GM cars and trucks were sold globally under the brands Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn and Wuling.[6]" Yet a little bit later, a brand named Hummer is mentioned as being up for sale. Why isn't this brand name in the initial list? Kdammers ( talk) 00:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Since emerging from bankruptcy earlier this morning I'd like to suggest that the following changes be made to reflect entries for the new and old General Motors.
1) The old article General Motors be renamed Motors Liquidation Company which is General Motors Corporation's new name which would provide only historical information about the defunt General Motors Corporation.
2) The General Motors Company LLC. article be redirected to General Motors with a link to For the former General Motors Corporation see Motors Liquidation Company
Dancing is Forbidden ( talk) 19:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The Vehicle Acquisition Holdings article (now officially called "General Motors Company") and this article need major rewriting. Once the rewriting takes place, this article should be named " Motors Liquidation Company" and the article about the new GM should adopt the General Motors Company name. 67.167.133.74 ( talk) 15:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Maynard, MIcheline (July 10, 2009).
"A Primer on the New General Motors". New York Times. Retrieved July 10, ,2009. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)
Q: What happens to old G.M.?
A: It remains in bankruptcy. Assets, like brands, factories and other operations will be liquidated over the next few years. Albert A. Koch, an expert in restructuring, is overseeing that process. Old G.M. is now known as the Motors Liquidation Company.
Qutation
It has been proposed that the General Motors Company LLC article be merged into this article. Steelbeard1 ( talk) 18:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I fixed the UCS report stuff to be clear. GM was 7th out of the top 8 selling carmakers where 8th is worst. Also the report basically "debunks" the under 30, it can't be used as a reference for that as it states that the "most under 30" is bogus and that GM is counting the coup and hatchback of the same model as separate. Citing this report to source the claim which the report refutes is bad form to say the least. Not against reporting teh claim just misusing the source in this way. Reboot ( talk) 05:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I modified the intro to reflect changes caused the the bankruptcy:
from
Changes were reverted by ThomasPaine1776 with out reason given. Which do you prefer? Daniel.Cardenas ( talk) 00:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
We could use a verifiable journalistic citation of the claim that 10% of the New GM is held by the old GM. Does this imply that stockholders of what is now GMGMQ stock owns 10% of the new GM? I've been under the impression that "old GM" stock will be worthless. Steelbeard1 ( talk) 18:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The 10% share is for the former stakeholders. Thomas Paine1776 ( talk) 20:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
So am I under the impression that those who own 100 shares of "Old GM" will receive 10 shares of "New GM" stock? Steelbeard1 ( talk) 21:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
No they won't because GM Company does not have any publicly traded stock, the interested is held as Debtor-in-Possession. Dancing is Forbidden ( talk) 23:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Management continues to remind investors of its strong belief that there will be no value for the common stockholders in the bankruptcy liquidation process, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the company's secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied. In this case, management strongly believes all such claims will not be fully satisfied, leading to its conclusion that the common stock will have no value.
None of the publicly owned stocks or bonds issued by the former General Motors Corporation (now renamed "Motors Liquidation Company"), including its common stock formerly traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker symbol "GM", are or will become securities of General Motors Company (the "new GM"), which is an independent separate company. All of these securities relate to Motors Liquidation Company, and will be treated in accordance with the provisions of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code and the rulings of the Bankruptcy court.
{{
cite web}}
: Text "accessdate - July 10, 2009" ignored (
help){{
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: Text "accessdate - July 10, 2009" ignored (
help)</ref>Due to the misleading wording about "Old GM" owning 9.8% of "New GM", I've renamed the company in question Motors Liquidation Co. in the infobox. Steelbeard1 ( talk) 03:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
In reference to the first sentence of the article, 'General Motors Corporation was a global automaker'. Since when has General Motors entered into the past tense? The company has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and will emerge, as has been quoted in the media, 'in a matter of months' as a more 'competitve company'. I edited the 'was' to 'is', but is has since been changed again, is there any valid reason for doing this? MasterOfHisOwnDomain ( talk) 17:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Please keep the Ron Paul slant OUT of this article. The early 2000 recession was not caused by federal reserve, nor was the stock market decline. Until you can dig up a reputable source (something other that long-debunked Mises economics w/ any empirics), it is incorrect —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halik007 ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I should add, you can make the argument that it was Fed's loose monetary policy that lead up to the .com speculative bubble. The stock market decline, however, was a correction to the economic reality and not a result of FED tightening. If you're interested in the topic, grab a copy of [15]. It was recommended to me by Paolo Pasquariello
Greenspan admitted his mistakes led to the current crisis and the fedss intention in raising rates was to lower the stock market. Fed tightening in part caused the slow down. Thomas Paine1776 ( talk) 22:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I can see throughout the article there is a lot of POV pushing regarding gov bailout funds, unsourced content and other inaccuracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gibeberish ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me the whole article is in need of reorganisation and a change in tone of writing. Jonathan McLeod ( talk) 00:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
"GM's higher labor costs compared to its competitors, resulting from its union agreements and pension costs, have contributed significantly to its financial problems.[citation needed] " -- This is terribly inaccurate, and is only opinion from conservative thinkers. The CEOs have already said in Congress that wages are *not* the problem as it only accounts for 10% of the industry's cost. (JF)June 01, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.190.121 ( talk) 18:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
-- 98.134.54.15 ( talk) 14:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
wp:lead says the intro should be a concise summary of the article. ThomasPaine is removing things that are unflattering in the intro and asking it to be kept short. I believe the info on how bankruptcy is working should be restored to the intro. What do you think? Thx, Daniel.Cardenas ( talk) 19:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
The article has had major issues with length. GM has emerged from Chapter 11. All the information is covered in the appropriate places and in sub articles. Thomas Paine1776 ( talk) 00:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is almost completely uncritical and gives undue weight to the company's marketing initiatives. I would like to see balanced coverage restored to the article such as that removed by Thomas Paine from the end of the Company overview section:
Nevertheless, General Motors (as well as its American competitors Ford Motor Company and Chrysler Group) are now under great stress and have suffered from high costs, tougher competition from foreign competitors and a decline in the popularity of their most profitable pick-up trucks and sport utility vehicles. General Motors faces continuing pressure to halt its steady slide in market share. Its cost structure, burdened by a strong union which over the years negotiated high wages, healthcare and pension benefits, has taken its toll on the company as foreign competitors have increased production at non-union factories in the United States and Canada. [1]
It is about time that coverage of the causes of GM problems should be included this article. -- Gavin Collins ( talk| contribs) 12:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed "Vehicles of most, if not all, of GM's brands have been represented in competition, with perhaps Chevrolet being the most prominent." as Chevrolet is most prominent to whom? For me personally Holden is the most proinent brand and I expect someone in Europe will say something else... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.251.161 ( talk) 04:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
This article has an extreme case of the recency effect. Almost everything in the article is about what they're currently doing, or the events of the last couple of years. The history section is a blip. GM was the most important corporation in America for multiple decades. Tempshill ( talk) 16:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, yes, some people don't like the bailouts, but I think there is undue weight being placed on GM's ownership status and that pejorative nickname "Government Motors." Some people call Ford "Found On Road Dead" but we wouldn't include that in the article, would we?-- A Second Man in Motion ( talk) 21:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
This matter of terminology when referring to the Canadian executives has come up before (i.e. at Ontario Legislative Building) and the result was always that "Government of Canada" is too ambiguous a term; at the article Government of Canada#Usage this is explained: "In Canadian English, the word government is used to refer both to the whole set of institutions that govern the country, as well as the current political leadership." In fact, this doesn't go far enough, as the constitution (and hence the courts) also defines "government of Canada" to be the Queen-in-Council. Only the latter has ownership in GM, in both federal and provincial jurisdictions. Why, then, is it better to use confusing and lazy terminology when the accurate term is right there? -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 12:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I've changed "Elizabeth II" to "The Crown", as they are, by Canadian law, synonymous, but the latter de-personalises the term. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I know Chevrolet has used the same logo for many years. I would suggest you use only the outline of the logo in Chrome and not fill in the center. This would make a more state of the art look to compete with other popular logos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.144.169.76 ( talk) 22:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
It has been floated by CNBC and Bloomberg i think on June 27, 2008 that Ford, GM and Chrysler will collapse in the next 18 months and probably only Ford will survive. There are a lot of sites that mentioned this, just type it in google.com. I think its financial health is a very important key information to show users of the GM information a clear picture where it is financially. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.128.34.58 ( talk) 07:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Umm, guys.... care to provide reliable sources for your speculation? Chaparral2J ( talk) 16:22, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
It does seem as if some of GM's PR agents were writing some of this page. GM's EV1 was a significant car, but it wasn't the only production electric car from a major car company (and the sentence about this is awful). Ford sold the Ranger EV, Chrysler had the Dodge Caravan EPIC, Fiat offered the Cinquecento electric, PSA offered the Peugeot 106 electric, and the article is TRYING to describe the EV1 as a dedicated electric vehicle, Nissan offered the Altra EV and the Hypermini...both designed from the ground up as electrics.
Would anyone be offened if I removed said line from the article?
holy ******, who wrote this tripe? GM cares about fuel efficiency? What a f***ing joke. this article is awful.
This is not the kind of language you would want to see in an encyclopedia. If you wish to dispute something within the article, please let us know by using appropriate language. Thanks!
And since this is an encyclopedia, you should also try to keep to facts instead of jumping all over articles, bashing them with your own opinions. Your claim that GM doesn't care about fuel efficiency seems somewhat flawed to me though, as the auto market increasingly demands it.
GM is no different than other successful corporations. They must manufacture what people want to purchase. Customers are buying large vehicles, SUVs and trucks. People are not or are only temperarily interest in fuel economy. It is not fair to blame a corporation for giving people what they want.
General Motors has recently announced they plan to be the world leader in fuel economy by 2010.
I absolutely agree that this article reads as if it were written by GM spin doctors. It is laughable at best. -- JJ 04:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
It says that the chinese currnecy is pegged to the dollar, still. Elfuegocaliente 02:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
California has filed lawsuits against six car companies, including GM, for gas emissions leading to global warming. I think this should be added soon if it proves to pan out in the next few days. Jeremyburkhart 05:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy I don't see how that lawsuit will hold up in court. In order for GM or any other auto company to be sued there would have to be overwhelming evidence that their vehicles were causing a purposeful detriment to the enviroment beyond what could be considered normal. Also the people who filed the lawsuit left out coal burning powerplants which pollute in much higher volumes than do passenger cars. 91z4me 11:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
General Motors Corporation has been accused by a variety of consumer advocates, activists, commentators, journalists, and documentary makers of deliberately sabotaging their companies' zero emmision electric vehicle efforts through several methods: failing to market, failing to produce appropriate vehicles, failing to satisfy demand, and using lease-only programs with prohibitions against end of lease purchase. By these actions they have managed to terminate their electric vehicle development and marketing programs despite operators' offers of purchase and assumption of maintenance liabilities.
The process of obtaining GM's first electric vehicle the EV1 was difficult. The vehicle could not be purchased outright. Instead, General Motors offered a closed-end lease for three years, with no renewal or residual purchase options. The EV1 was only available from specialist Saturn dealerships, and only in California.
Before reviewing leasing options, a potential lessee would be taken through a 'pre-qualification' process in order to learn how the EV1 was different from other vehicles. Next came a waiting list with no scheduled delivery date.
A documentary about the demise of the EV1 and other electric vehicles entitled Who Killed the Electric Car? debuted on June 30, 2006. Several weeks before the debut of the movie, the Smithsonian Institution announced that its EV1 display was being permanently removed and the EV1 car put into storage. GM is a major financial contributor to the museum, and both parties denied that this fact contributed to the removal of the display.
According to the interview with Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner in the June 2006 issue of Motor Trend magazine, the cancellation of the EV1 proggram has been one of the worst decision he has ever made. [2]
Lastly, please be sure to include some quotes from the source I mentioned to you, the section you posted without sources throws off our NPOV we're striving for in this article. -- Lucavious 17:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
"Cadillac is number one seller of vehicles over $40,000, proving that GM has the vehicles that real luxury consumers want." So... that's a neutral sentence of encyclopedia-quality these days? Bobbo008 02:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does nearly the whole article read like it was written by a UAW-card-carrying GM employee? Except for the "Controversy" bit, which looks, as another commenter has stated, like an advertisement for the movie about electric vehicles. I came to this article looking for a broader POV than what I found -- for example, has any proper research been conducted into why Honda and Toyota sedans outsell GM ones in GM's home market, the US?
Anonymous 15:19, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
http://www.ordisante.com/2006/09/08/8-things-wrong-with-gm-article-at-wikipedia-2.html
Would anyone scream bloody murder if many of the paragraphs were removed from the mid to lower portions? Why are we bragging about GM's accomplishments over Saturn in quality or the inflation of ratings by their competitors? Lucavious 22:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The infobox says GM was founded in 1908, but the text says 1902 -- anybody know which is correct? Bananafish 20:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't GM also own Holden and Opel? And perhaps we could flesh out the history more... it sounds kinda biased....
Paragraph 3 discusses an urban legend based on Bradford Snell's work about tram lines but then further paragraph report as truth GM WWII involvement also based on work by the same Bradford Snell. What gives? Rmhermen 15:22 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)
This seems a little non-NPOV about the WWII involvement. Implied is that GM's American management willfully supported the Nazi regime AFTER the start of hostilities, which I believe not to be the case. Accounts I've read squarely put the German government in control of German GM subsidiaries during the war years. Anyone got cites pro/con? -- Morven 21:14, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Wasn't Hughes spun off as an independent company a few years ago? Mkweise 06:42, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
No, it was Electronic Data Systems Corporation that became an independent company in 1996. Hughes Aircaft was sold to Raytheon in 1997. Hughes Space & Communications Company was sold to Boeing in 2000. Hughes Electronics' Direct TV and Hughes Network Systems was sold to News Corporation in 2003.
I do have issues with that paragraph the anon removed, though -- I don't like 'alleged' in an article without a source for the allegation. —Morven 10:37, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I support the reversion of the anon's complete removal of these topics, but I do believe that these sections are POV, lack any cites, and should be done better.
For the first paragraph (streetcar conspiracy) we should mention only SOME believe it; I'll edit the article to say so.
For the second, I note the paragraph contains many words on GM's guilt and then one final line saying that GM disclaims responsibility because the factories were seized during the war. That's not really balanced. —Morven 20:13, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
I went ahead and changed the following paragraph wich originally read:
And changed it to:
It's no secret that GM has financial challenges ahead, there was a reasonable section with reliable sources that anonymous users have deleted a few times. It is not obvious why. Perhaps there could be some explanation from the anonymous users... MunchieRonnie 16:25, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think Keep. Reithy 07:58, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
"Chinese government's extensive purchase of U.S. government debt in the form of bonds." This is an overexageration. The Chinese do NOT own a significant part of the US dept. It's large but by no means unusual or worth mentioning. Here is a chart to prove it. here
Uhm, probably because some PR flacks have discovered wikipedia is a 'liability' and pay some newly minted college PR flunkie to come here and erase anything 'controversial', hiding behind wikipedias 'NPV'. so neutral you might as well not have an article in the first place.
Off the topic that others have been speaking about, I wonder why people keep making errors about Pres. Wilson's comments before the congressional committee. He actually said "What is good for the country is good for General Motors and what is good for General Motors is good for the country". This seems both a harmless and not very important statement; it is obviously a simple statement of fact. It does not make GM, and Wilson, look like Military Industrial Complex monsters, which the use of only the second half of his statement might seem to imply. This twisting of meaning of the quote, derived by omotting its first half, is a simple propaganda trick, and the Left has been beating Capitalism with it since it was first made. And it shows up even here, in this site. "Give us this day and our daily illusion"--it doesn't take much to keep people happy.
Does anyone know whether this is true? "Government has also contributed to the industry's structural problems. By one estimate, state governments subsidize foreign transplants such as BMW and Honda plants to the tune of $1,000 per car. And state franchise laws make it prohibitively expensive to rationalize dealer networks and nameplates. Worst of all are clean-air rules that essentially require companies to produce and sell low-pollution passenger cars at a loss, just to offset the environmental damage done by all their trucks and SUVs." [4] I really don't understand how US government can be able to subsidize foreign import when US car manufactures have such a powerful lobby.
I know Oldsmobile is now dead and gone, but shouldn't it get a mention at least? - james_anatidae 06:32, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
Ha, it looks like GM had been paying lightly as employees seemed to have preffered a health security more than a fat monthly cheque. The sad thing is they may end up loosing on health care, even though they took a lean monthly cheque. [5]
I'm disgusted at the Canada comment in this article: "A VEILED EXCUSE", that seems a little biased.
I belive this line from the article is inaccurate, but I'm not 100%:
"Toyota and Honda have also introduced gasoline/electric or diesel/electric hybrid vehicles into their product mix whereas, as of October of 2005, General Motors has not."
This page lists a Chevy and a GMC truck that are hybrids: http://www.gm.com/automotive/innovations/altfuel/vehicles/pickup/hybrid/
I'm not sure when these hybrid truck lines came out, but I thought it was before Oct. 2005. Am I wrong about this? ~~
What's with the section that ends with "By John Gleeson" at the bottom of the article? It seems to have been pasted there completely out of context. -- Closeapple 05:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I am wondering if this is the John Gleeson that works at the Oshawa Truck Assmembly Plant ...
We are currently in the process of running 'test' hybrid vehicles at Oshawa that run on Ethanol.
I noticed that "bespoke" is used twice in this article. This word is incredibly uncommon in the US. I looked up the word on m-w.com, and it seems "custom" or "custom-made" might be more easily understood by the typical US reader, though I'm not 100% sure these words capture the same meaning the author is trying to convey. Thoughts?
Does anyone know a clear, NPOV explanation of GM's pension/ health care problems that we can incorporate into the article? Someone gave a link above which kind of skims over it, but seems to over simplify. Did workers really demand, and GM really agree to, paying unfunded benefits that it seriously hoped would come out of future earnings? MrVoluntarist 04:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
"Due to its highly compensated workforce GM has the highest health care and labor costs in the industry, and some analysts have criticized the company for this."
This seems to be a POV and at least requires a citation (perhaps several), doesn't it? 71.131.209.192 23:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that this gets into complex discussions of how our economy runs and how people pay for mistakes. I feel that almost all discussions have a POV slanted toward the company, for instance, any discussion that uses words like "excessive" to discuss employee pay is slanted, since this pay was granted by the company. You can weasel all you want about the union holding the company hostage, but in the end you executives are paid big bucks to look after the company.
One also almost never hears how the failure of GM management - the colossal, decades long failure, evidenced by their slide in market share - never gets blamed. why is this ?
Came across this Jeremy Clarkson commentary. Too sarcastic/opinionated for the article, but funny nontheless. Clarkson is lamenting the effect GM has had on its Vauxhall subsidiary:
Shouldn't this article mention how gm is supporting Ethanol with it's Live Green go Yellow campaign? Mathiastck 19:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
personally I would describe "General Motors" as a current event. Yes it changes rapidly, but i dont see the relevance of it changing "as the event progresses"
this doesnt quite make sense
GM's variable valve timing system VVT would operate throughout the entire RPM range provide superior performance. Japanese automakers reacted by adding i for intelligence, to do what GM's system had already been doing
Did anyone read this article. It smells of GM friendly bias. Compare this article to ones on other automakers like Toyota, Ford, or Honda.
For example, take a look at the hybrid section.
"GM delivered the first commercial hybrid vehicle and was early innovator in hybrid vehicle development, building Diesel-electric trains since the 1930s and buses since the 1990s (but without stored energy recovery)."
That sentence makes it sound like GM delivered the first commercial passenger car. Also, I'm not exactly sure what a Disel-electric train without stored energy recovery is supposed to say about hybrid.
The article has also had several questionable revisions, such as the removal of Gm's financial troubles. The marketting section is especially suspect, considering how it singles out pro GM articles.
The article also states "Ford was moralistically opposed to credit." while Ford did have a line of credit in that time period.
Marketing problems section was gutted and is now Marketing trends, removing historical quality problems and now it is looking like a corporate puff piece due to IP edits. Looks like GM flack has been here. - Leonard G. 15:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The bias seems pretty severe to me. For example, the marketing section seems to be almost an advertisment for GM, citing statistics and polls that trumpet GM's quality, while disparaging competitors by name.
I agree, some of this section is ridiculous, here's why:
Removed:
"Foreign automakers and their media allies regrouped, and the marketing competition resumed. Foreign automakers tried a different marketing tactic focusing on technology. Once again, foreign automakers were just trying to create perception. Honda valve systems even lacked hydraulic lifters, and Japanese automakers were mostly using rubber timing belts. In the 1980s, Japanese automakers still had a long way to go."
"In 1989, Acura began showing the NSX, which had a variable valve timing system to create the perception that Japan had technology and 'tolerances'. However, in September of 1975, GM had already patented the first Smart Value, the progenitor of today's many versions of variable valve timing."
"GM's variable valve timing system VVT would operate throughout the entire RPM range providing superior performance. Japanese automakers reacted by adding i for intelligence, in a band aid approach to lift the valves to do what GM's more advanced cam timing system had already been doing. On efficiency, the Japanese marketing failed again, GM V-6 and V-8 models lead in their respective class for fuel economy."
The stuff about the electric car doesn't seem notable enough to have such a big section, and it seems more like a plug for the "who killed the electric car" book than anything. Of course I may be biased - I have a hard time swallowing the claim that GM didn't want its electric car program to work in order to support oil companies. How about a little dose of reality - GM doesn't care if oil companies like them. I think they just decided electric cars were a dead end and instead focussed on fuel cells and (later) hybrids. All the rest of this issue smells of hugely POV speculation and conspiracy theory. TastyCakes 22:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a perfect example of GM at work - the whole article stinks of a GM advertising plot to hijack this article to praise themselves.
Perhaps not a hijack, but this article does seem inbalanced to me.
I think there is strong evidence of neutrality issues. The "labor Cost" quote in section 9.1 implies UAW employees earned $81.18/hour in 2006, and nearly $80/hr. now. These numbers are absurd and ridiculous. The "reference" provided for the numbers is an op/ed piece that is union hostile. I am not a UAW wage analyst, but it is my understanding these outrageous numbers are the result of GM's creative math. They add in all the retiree benefits from their decades of downsizing and buyouts into the hourly UAW employee cost. This is creates the impression that UAW employees are grossly overpaid, compared to other auto workers, which is very unfair and very NPOV. There are multiple sites on the web showing true UAW labor for a US built car is around 9% of the true cost. I'm talking about the active labor cost, not retiree benefits. Toyota pays *active* non-UAW employees around $14-$18 an hour in the USA, and UAW employees around $32. Truth is, Toyota built their new, non-UAW plants in poor, rural areas of the USA where $14-$18 an hour is a decent wage. GM's plants are typically older, located in built-up areas where the wages and cost of living are far higher than rural areas. UAW *active* employees form less than 1/3 of GM's workforce. The way GM continually blames these assembly line workers for their executive/management's grotesque failures is an absurdity. This page is a GM propaganda piece. 71.119.74.155 ( talk) 08:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Not according to the wiki on VW group. Anyone care to check this? Just noticed this discrepancy.
There's not even a project page for the deletion request, nor has there been ANY discussion concerning the revising or removal of it. Therefore whoever put it up can do their homework before destroying the credibility of this article. -- Lucavious 00:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Although some commentators have claimed that European manufactures are somewhat disadvantaged by over-regulation, Germany places market share limits on Japanese imports, controlling Japan's ability to manipulate the market.
As a German, I hear this for the first time, and additionally, Toyota sales are soaring in Germany. The statement seems untrue to me and doesn't state a source. I placed {{Fact}} behind the phrase, but if it turns out to be untrue, I'd like to delete it - comments? -- Philipp Krebs 01:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
"In 1962 half the cars sold in America were made by GM. Now its market share is roughly 25 percent" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/29/AR2005042901385.html Shouldn't a decline like this get a mention?
Not like that, no. Its far too simplistic and ignores other factors, namely that in 1962 the playing field was dominated by the Big Three and a handful of failing indepedents (Studebaker, Packard, Nash) with virtually no imports to speak of. Fast-forward to today where nearly fifty different marques are sold in the United States and the rote number of competitors is far greater than it was in the past. Simply quoting that figure makes it seem like a failing of General Motors without the realization that market dynamics are what changed. No automaker can ever hope to achieve such total domination of the US market again. -- 24.96.69.81 21:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The electric car controversy should not appear under GM's main page, it should be relegated to the page under the EV1 automobile. The fact that this controversy stems from a movie that has been in theaters for almost three months and is distributed by SONY has earned under $1.5 million dollars doesn't justify it being on GM's main page when in earned $192.604 Billion last year. Why isn't the controversy on Honda Motor Company or Toyota's main page, they were involved in this so called "conspiracy".
The fact of the failure of the electric car is that for ANY automaker to be succesful they must be able to sell to the average American. The average American 10 years ago only earned $30,000 a year and the lease price was $300 for a car that you could not drive long distance. Many Americans needed a vehicle that could drive long distances because discount airlines were not prevelant 10 years ago and flying was expensive. You must look at the economics of it to understand why the concept failed, to many editors don't understand economics and just see it as GM being a big bully.
This is merely anti-GM sentiment, if you don't want to buy a GM vehicle that is fine, there are plenty of other high caliber automakers that make great vehciles. But it is completely unfair to hold GM responsible for the failure of electric automobiles.
A lot of the article, esp. the history, seems to read it like it was taken from the PR department. This is a notification that I will be making a lot of changes soon to remove what I believe to be POV violations and make the information more neutral. Current version as of this post is [7]. I'm not going to put a POV tag on it yet because I don't think it's fair to do so until I have the time to document the problems on the talk page. MrVoluntarist 13:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Here is the comparison of some changes I made: [8]
Justification of changes: I mentioned the role of their historic pension underfunding in the pension crisis. The article blamed the pension crisis in part on rate hikes, but those would help the pension fund, though it is correct they would possibly hurt GM's ability to do business. I clarified that the GM hybrid advantages were based on their estimates and not independently confirmed. I removed the part about health care moving their business to Canada. That claim is so far only supported by people of one ideology, and such a person was the only source for the claim. It should only be re-included if both sides can be explained, as well as why foreign competitors don't prefer Canada for that reason. The article also mentioned exchange rates, and I clarified that this only applied to imports, and not competitors who manufactured in America. MrVoluntarist 09:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Minor Edit to the article concerning some bias:
One, the part about Germany restricting imports has had no citation for quite some time, and was removed. Two, in the same section of the article, the claim that foreign automakers "transplant" their workers into America create the illusion that the cars were "american made" is false and was deleted. It has no citation and in fact foreign Automakers do use American workers at their plants, who do not receive foreign health benefits. Also deleted was the statement that the fictional transplants were "less skilled" and lower paid that Union Workers. "Less Skilled" is an subjective statement and no citations were made to prove it anyway.
I revised the part about foreign workers and healthcare to say "Also, foreign automakers have health-care costs paid for by their respective governments." It then leads into the Canada portion of the section, and is now much less POV.
Oh uh, those edits were made by me, Scryer360. Dont have an signature lined up yet so....
I removed a section that claimed GM cars of the 80's had better quality than imports of the era. I'm sorry, but go look on every other quality study of the time period and you'll see that GM is far, FAR behind Toyota, Honda and others in reliablity. The section that claimed one, ONE researcher claimed GM cars were better is non-conclusive considering 99% of studies in this field go against his results. If that section bears mentioning, then I think it's fair to include the ones that say GM was far behind in quality at that time.
The article lacks basic financial info: Assets, liabilities, who owns the shares (and thus the company), how many shares are outstanding, etc. At least, there should be a link to this information.
I came to the article looking for a list of GM's largest shareholders.
This article reads like a promotional advertisement for General Motors, which is, of course, ridiculous. Particularly the "Corporate Issues" section is far too kind. I personally will remove that section if no one does anything to change it to a neutral point of view. Nicholasink 19:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I fee lit should be noted somewhere here that the electromotive devision of General Motors builds trains, in particular the highly successful [[[British Rail Class 66]]. User:Tom walker 21:55 GMT 1 October 2006
I can't find a source for the figures at the moment, but I've read repeatedly over the years in publications such as "The Wall Street Journal" that Volkswagen, not GM, is the top foreign automaker in China.
I'd second that, I think there is a good source in the VW group article.
Wouldn't DaimlerChryler AG actually be the number 1 in the world since it makes 149.78 billion euros, which would make their revenue about 6 billion more than GMs? GMs revenue is only 192 billion, putting them behind the 198 billion that DaimlerChrysler gets because of Currency Conversion. Zodia 14:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
No no, No.1 Automaker status determined by number of cars sold, not nessicarily profit made. GM sold more cars, even though it made much less money (for any number of reasons, take your pick). So you are correct, DaimlerChrysler pulled in a hell of a lot more money, but it still did not sell as many cars.
Think margins. *****
I was under the impression that in the 1950s, GM was actually an innovative technology leader - can anyone supply some refs to back this up ? I was also under the impression tha the northstar V8 was actually a technology powerhouse (I am def NOT pro GM - just credit where it is due).
But you are wrong about the Northstar V8. When it first premiered, it was considered something special, but not now. The reason it was considered special was because GM had (finally) started making Dual-Overhead-Cam V8s, something Japan and Germany had done for years.
Today however, DOHC is nothing spectacular. In fact most foreign competitors engines are DOHC, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, they all use DOHC. Even Nissans big Titan pickup uses a DOHC design.
And DOHC is not even considered an achievement anymore: Bugatti's Veyron is technically quad-overhead-cam, and Ferrari and Lambo are using triple-overhead-cam designs in V8 and V10 engines.
Also, cylinder deactivation, something GM is just now touting as something new, has been standard on the Honda Civic for years. Just ask Honda or even better pry open one of those engines (the ones I did were a 99 and a 97 Civic, one an Si and one a DX I think)(the models of the car, not the engines themselves, I dont know Honda's engine names).
Signed by Scryer_360, who forgets how to use the sig creator thingy.
Cylinder deactivation was pioneered by General Motors in the 1980s in a variety of Cadillacs under the guise of a V8-6-4 engine. It failed because the technology simply wasn't there to facilitate seamless, reliable deactivation. Today, the technology is there and GM and Honda are leaders in it followed by Chrysler. Also, whoever is claiming the Honda Civic had cylinder deactivation is full of crap. A select number of J-block V6s in 2006 model year Pilots, Odysseys, and Accord Hybrids feature Variable Cylinder Management. A 4cyl with variable displacement technology would be woefully inefficient if not supplemented by another powerplant and would certainly not be fitted to a late-90s Civic DX, one of the cheapest cars available at the time. C'mon now. At least be plausible.
In regards to the Northstar engine, remember that it was originally marketed as the Northstar System that incorporated 4T80-E HydroMatic transmission, road-sensing suspension, Bosch 4-wheel ABS discs, and Magnasteer as well as the 32v Northstar V8. What made the Northstar truly unique was its limp-home mode that allowed it to drive in short hops for around 100 miles without coolant by using deactivated cylinder banks as air pumps.
Seriously, guys, all this info is even available right here on Wikipedia. -- 24.96.69.81 20:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This article, near a mentioning about GM trucks, claims the current fuel economy leader is Toyota.
This is wrong, Toyota is perceived as having good fuel economy but the fleet average for best fuel economy is Honda, do some math.
Scryer_360 03:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
bsd
This image had a tagging error, which caused the caption not to appear, and i corrected it. But it stated something I found dubious: "EV1s crushed by General Motors shortly after production". Any thoughts?--
Benstown
02:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Much of this should be removed or made into another article. For one, far too much of the history section is taken up by it, and secondly, it presents a negative bias towards the company. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.61.15.101 ( talk) 05:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC).
The physical size of this inclusion is only a small percentage of the overall article. It is fully referenced and refers to a period during which over 50 million people died. It is not an inconsequental reference or activity and remains an overlooked aspect of US corporate history (akin to IBM's involvment). This should not be swept under the carpet no matter how distasteful and, as it is factual and relevant, should be a part of the overall article. Northlight 23:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I tried to edit the references because one of them about the Naziness of GM is actually available to link to: Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/36370067.html?dids=36370067:36370067&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Nov+30%2C+1998&author=Michael+Dobbs&pub=The+Washington+Post&edition=&startpage=A.01&desc=Ford+and+GM+Scrutinized+for+Alleged+Nazi+Collaboration but when clicking edit of the references it lost all references info in the edit textarea and I would have had to of started over. Is this a bug? Can someone add the link I gave above to the reference (I believe #2 in the list)?
The Nazi part is very biased against GM. It states that the German government took over day to day in 1939 (as the link I provided confirms) then a paragraph starts out "Nevertheless, while General Motors has claimed that its German operations were outside its control during World War II, this assertion appears to be contradicted by available evidence." That sentence is a contradiction. The only linkable reference to the post states GM lost control in 1939 so how can it just be a "claim" by GM that operations were out of their control during WWII? It was out of their control.
Interesting that 2 of the 3 paragraphs of the washington post article are harmful to GM and the one paragraph from the post article which is left out of wikipedia is the one which is less harmful to GM. E.G. "Both Ford and General Motors declined requests for access to their wartime archives. Ford spokesman John Spellich defended the company's decision to maintain business ties with Nazi Germany on the grounds that the U.S. government continued to have diplomatic relations with Berlin up until the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. GM spokesman John F. Mueller said that General Motors lost day-to-day control over its German plants in September 1939 and "did not assist the Nazis in any way during World War II.""
Might as well throw that one in there since all other info of the washington post article seems to be in the wiki.
It is just NOT true that Germany would not have been able to invade Poland without the help of GM. It is true that GM supplied the Wehrmacht with trucks which were essential for a successful invasion. But these trucks were all Opel-models, a former German company which GM took over after the big depression, just ten years before. Further the Wehrmacht had several other opportunities where they could get these trucks from. I demand that this part of the article will be removed!
This article needs to mention Poletown. General Motors was very involved in a case that is now defining eminent domain, a major political issue. Please include some mention of the legal case and GM's participation. If this article is included in Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States, we need to include how the company's policy is shaping US law.
Efkeathley 12:51, 06 March 2007 (EST)
Since all of the cars used as disguises for the Autobots are from GM, there should be some mention of that in this article. Excuse me if I happened to miss it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FingManiac ( talk • contribs) 04:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
I've looked through this article and I've found nothing about the talks with DaimlerChrysler to buy Chrysler Corp. Someone should add it to the article. By the way, if GM does buy Chrysler, what would the do with Chrysler and Dodge? Jeep they could easily integrate into their lineup, yet Chrysler competes with Buick, and Dodge with Chevrolet. But then again, GMC competes with Chevrolet, too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.157.31.63 ( talk) 02:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
Since this has been rated 'B-class', yet no one has posted related complaints or suggested improvements, I will begin some:
I suggest the Economics section be removed for the following reasons:
Elsewhere, I feel that the EV controversy section would be more appropriate in its own article, perhaps including other automakers efforts, with a smaller summary in the GM page in a reintegrated/reworked history section. The entire 98-year history of the company and countless models have been moved to allow coverage of a relatively minor current event involving a single experimental low-run model to remain here. I know some will claim it is not a 'minor' issue, but keep in mind it is hardly the first controversy GM has faced, yet others are NOT covered here or even in the history article. Ralph Nader's Unsafe at Any Speed for example, is not mentioned at all, but was a far more important event for the company and automotive history in general. Notice that the EV issue is also brought up, somewhat extensively considering the information is covered elsewhere in the article, in the Environment and alternative vehicles portion of the 'Programs' section, and arguably in a POV manner. A separate EV article would allow for a fuller explanation of the issues while not cluttering up the GM page with propaganda from both sides.
'Social Policies' could use some work, too, I am sure there are far more than two (currently uncited) items worth mentioning, positive or negative. if not, this section should be removed. - Scottr76 06:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
This title is based on ANNUAL sales, not quarterly. Until sales figures for all of 2007 are released, GM still holds this title, even if Toyota has beat them for one quarter, or even 3. Source: Detroit News/AP article regarding Toyota's 1Q 2007 sales results. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scottr76 ( talk • contribs) 14:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
Who on earth is editing this to make it seem as if GM is still the largest manufacturer? It's an accepted standard that we are measuring "largest" by number of vehicles sold, NOT revenue, or profit. In fact this person has changed all of the major motor manufacturers, including Ford and Toyota! This is very misleading and should be corrected. Unless we are about to change the way in which we measure largest?
The guy at the top is right, Gm still holds that title. It is judged annually and can't be changed until this whole years sales are up. But Toyota does hold the title for the 1st quarter so I'll post that instead, but NOT for the year. In fact, if the Gm talks with DaimlerChrysler to buy Chrysler fall through, Toyota will not gain that title for a few years at the least.
I edited the first sentence to reflect BOTH sales volume (which is be measured quarterly) and production volume (measured annually). I would include sales revenue, but the source listed for that had no such information, only sales and production. If someone has a reference for revenue, that could be included, but not at the expense of the others. I think this is the best compromise between the two sides, rather than an edit war going on every time one company sells a few more cars than the other, or produces more, or whatever. There's no reason both methods can't be shown here. However, full-year production volume is typically used to declare the ranking of 'largest', as is written referenced article, and numerous others.-- Scottr76 22:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
As further defense of this edit, while the old version (showing sales revenue only) was called 'simple and sweet', it has the following problems:
The figures — and sales growth rates — indicate that Toyota could overtake GM as the No. 1 automaker
Please note that it says 'could overtake', not 'has overtaken'. It clearly states the sales volume from last year, which supports with hard data that GM is largest by annual production.
If it is changed to 'largest by sales revenue', I think it would be reasonable to request a source both for that information and that such a title is an accepted standard by which to judge the size of an automaker.-- Scottr76 03:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
First the newspaper link doe snot work and also GM will continue to state they are the largest just like Toyota may also do the same and until we get the absolute facts we will keep it like this. Sparrowman980 05:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
include:...the world's largest largest automaker by sales revenue as of the second quarter of 2007 [2] (ahead of Toyota Motor Corporation). Toyota has, however, outsold GM in the first six months of the year.
Agreed, it is production volume, not revenue, sorry for not having noted that. Probably happened because I mearely modified an existing sentence, which was earlier citing another website.
Quite honestly, there isnt much I disagree with, in what you say. Like I stated earlier, the best option is to leave it at the last available annual data, which is for the year 2006. The article is afterall about General motors an automaker, not it's sales through the last few months. We can, elsewhere in the article, mention that the current trend indicates Toyota is going to overtake/ has already overtaken GM.
The repetition of largest, well, I myself didnt like it, but added it for the reason you mentioned (seeming bias against Toyota). AJ-India 07:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Why GM-AvtoVaz isn't mentioned in the article? On the GM homepage it is also not mentioned. But at this page it exists. I'm very puzzled. -- Kuemmjen 17:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
We need to know there profit there employees and the rest and we all know it all down. ( Sparrowman980 05:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC))
Now what we need is the end of the 2006 facts.( Sparrowman980 07:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC))
Is it considered too early by Wikipedia standards to insert mention of the Chevrolet Volt into the "Electric Car" section? I know that the vehicle is upcoming and not near production yet, but it could be mentioned as another effort by GM.
The Federal Reserve does not base its actions on the stock market. It did not increase interest rates to quell the stock market but to keep inflation risks contained. The interest rate increases may have quelled the stock market, but the Federal Reserve does not increase interest rates just to quell the stock market. If that were the case, then in 2007 the stock market should have been quelled from the Fed increasing rates from a low of 1% to its current 5.25%.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pf/pf.htm
Hi, my name is Christopher Barger, and I work for General Motors' communications. No, I have never been here before; no, I have never edited anything on Wikipedia before; and no, I am not here to get into a debate with anyone over their edits or point of view. I just had an update.
One of my colleagues brought to my attention today that the list of our Board of Directors on this page is out of date. I have the most current list below. Given that there's been so much controversy over companies editing their own pages, and even so much cynicism about whether GM comms people have been spinning here, I figured that my making even such an inocuous edit as updating our BoD might be troublesome, so I am asking the community: Would it breach any protocols for me to update the BoD list? If not, could someone please make the edit to reflect the most current Board as listed below?
Thanks for your time and any guidance you have.
Christopher Barger General Motors Communications
GM Board of Directors (per 2007 proxy):
Percy N. Barnevik Erskine B. Bowles John H. Bryan Armando M. Codina Erroll B. Davis, Jr. George M.C. Fisher Karen Katen Kent Kresa Ellen J. Kullman Philip A. Laskawy Kathryn V. Marinello Eckhard Pfeiffer G. Richard Wagoner, Jr. Christopher Barger 18:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone verify whether the following brands were all the same model?
Nova (Chevrolet) Omega (Oldsmobile) Ventura (Pontiac) Apollo (Buick)
The cars were all similar, and notice that when the names are arranged as above, the first letters spell "Nova" in an acrostic.
John Paul Parks ( talk) 14:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I feel that the annual net income, as taken from the annual report, is what should be used here, however, it seems a couple of editors feel it should be the quarterly results (and, i might add, neglect to even provide a source for their numbers). The rest of the companies in the Dow Jones Industrial Average use the annual net income, and I feel that GM should remain consistent with that. Is there any kind of consensus for what should be used?-- Scottr76 20:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I am very certain that the history of labour relations with General Motors extend long before the September 2007 strike, which is the only thing commented on it the section titled "Labor Relations". Should the section be expanded to include the history of GM labour relations? Should it be retitled "September 2007 strike"? Should the text be deleted and the reader be directed to the article on the 2007 General Motors strike? What should be done with that section? Respectfully, SamBlob 20:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick note: Daewoo is still actively sold in US with brand new 2008 models available. They are no longer actively marketed but are still available for purchase at many larger Saab dealers (and some others). I've re-added it into the list of active lines.
As for Geo, they are now a sub-brand of Chevy. I agree that they are no longer their own line. That's why I marked it as a sub-brand. The Chevy Geo M, Chevy Geo Lt, and Chevy Geo ECO are all available for purchase from larger dealers. I've added the notation to the defunct list rather than the active list, I believe that should cause no controversy. Lostinlodos ( talk) 22:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=prev&oldid=56195585
Straight from Wikipedia scanner. The whois:
OrgName: General Motors Corporation OrgID: GMC-20 Address: 200 Renaissance Center City: Detroit StateProv: MI PostalCode: 48265 Country: US
NetRange: 198.208.0.0 - 198.208.255.255
This is totally absurd. I'm tagging this as POV immediately.
67.142.130.24 ( talk) 11:06, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Toyota has recently moved up in sales and is now the top seller. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.25.209 ( talk) 22:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
== THE BIG MOVE Toyota has sold more motor vehicles than the leading company -- 71.10.25.209 ( talk) 22:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)Christian Brown
In the biofuel section, there is nothing about Brazilian gasoline/ethanol Flexfuel engines. GM was one of the first carmakers to offer flexible-fuel engines in that country, and had ethanol-only engines in their lineup for decades. Part of that knowledge has been used by Saab in their Biopower engines. Can someone research a little more to expand that section? -- NaBUru38 ( talk) 03:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
In the interest of article stability and 3RR violations, is there a more agreeable way to include 2007 results and its implications? Since the article is meant to be encyclopedic, it seems the intro should discuss GM's overall, historical presence, with a reference to 2007's results, then include a section further down about the controversial results and the implications sourcing per WP:RS as this is a controversial/contested area. The WaPo article seem to be the most reliable source used so far; blogs, topix, GM annual reports are not considered WP:WP and used only after discussion and concensus. Flowanda | Talk 22:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Once again, as per the New York Times, USA Today, Wards Auto World, Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal and a myriad of others, I am listing GM as the worlds largest automaker by sales for calendar year 2007. To the idiot who keeps changing this on the GM as well as the Toyota page, stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.143.150 ( talk) 08:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Since it seems like the more eyes we have on this article, the better chance we have of achieving consensus and stability, I made a request here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles#Eyes on General Motors. Respond here or there as you see fit. Thanks. Flowanda | Talk 03:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
First off: GM beat Toyota (9,369,000 vs. 9,366,000) vehicles in 2007; but I will admit that this week's news is not encouraging as far as them keeping their now razor thin lead. Secondly: GM is working on a number of new fronts for future growth; Electric Vehicles, Regular Hybrids, Plug-In Hybrids, Electonic Controls of nearly all systems, Gasoline and Diesel Engine Efficiency and Green Technology, and perhaps most significantly of all they are increasing their manufacturing presence in areas of the world with the most potential for future growth (such as China). JeepAssembler ( talk) 01:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 01:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no flag waving; just stating the facts; which Toyota itself admitted (I believe in the U.S.A. Today newspaper earlier this month). And it IS a big deal who is the World's Number One Automobile Manufacturer (and has been ever since sales of the Model T really took off in 1914; in fact; GM's displacing Ford for that title in 1931 was a source of consternation at the latter company; Edsel Ford wound up getting in debt to bankers, whom his father Henry hated). And in fact there are a lot of people who buy only based on brand loyalty for whatever reasons; being the biggest company was/is one of GM's sources of customer loyalty. Unfortunately, a lot people in the United States have become just as attached to import makes (including some very stupid people where I work) and then whine about the economy when good paying U.A.W. jobs are lost. JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, which automaker made and sold more vehicles IS very important; If Toyota passes up G.M. in those regards it will be one anecdotal signal that world power is shifting from North America to East Asia; much as the mass production of the Model T Ford was one of the signs that world power was shifting from Western Europe to North Ameriaca a century ago. JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
You should do anecdotes; everyone should be concerned about the future and how it will effect their lives: Standard of Living, etc. JeepAssembler ( talk) 22:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 22:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I gave objective and verifiable information about production, sales, technologies, and location of production (which can be checked in newspapers and magazines). But evidently some people took it as editorializing; even though I mentioned that things are changing very fast. JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The edit-warring on the numbers continues. I had provided a recent source which seemed to support GM's small margin as top-seller [9]; this was promptly reverted. I've also noticed this source [10], which was provided earlier this month by another contributor. It, too, has been reverted in favor of sources which pre-date the more recent findings. Same edit war occurs on the Toyota page, also relying on information that might not be up-to-date. An explanation for the reverts would be welcome. JNW ( talk) 23:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I guess you mean 3,000,000 but I don't think it is written in the link you provide in note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.6.29.54 ( talk) 08:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
I am Ron Cox, retired Delco Electronics (Delphi) in 2001. I am completely new to Wikipedia, This is my first talk ever there. But with the help of my friend Phil Crosno in California, we proposed to add the history of our electronics development for GM racing engines to this site. Specifically I would like to see the history starting with the first engine management systems installed experimentally in the 1986-1987 seasons on Penski team cars through the Chevy V8s and Aurora engines.
Any thoughts on organization? Should this be a new section or part of the existing GM auto racing?
Ron, W9kfb
W9kfb ( talk) 09:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
There is an article in a respected magazine (Automotive Engineering, March 2008; pages 34 to 37) that discusses how General Motors and several other OEMs (Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen were also named in the article) are currently working on HCCI technology, convinced that it may be the next big thing for Internal Combustion Engines. They use gasoline but find a way to completely mix the air and fuel (hence the term homogenous); which causes the mixture to combust under pressure without a spark, theoretically combining gasoline's lower cost with diesel's greater efficiency. But without the SOx or NOx emissions resulting from the higher temperatures of the gas engine. Supposedly much of the technological infrastructure exists already (such as gasoline direct fuel injection).
But techical difficulties remain before cars can be produced with HCCI engines; it will take continuous computer monitoring of the pressure, concentration of fuel, and combustion chamber's internal temperature to control this inherently unstable process (Just slight variations in any of these parameters will cause no ignition at all). Finally, an HCCI engine will sometimes function as a normal Spark-Ignition engine; the control systems will also need to monitor and actuate this transition as well. JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)JeepAssembler JeepAssembler ( talk) 21:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
General motors is the "second" largest Automaker after Toyota. Please refrain from posting your own personal opinions, I understand alot of americans are upset but facts are facts, and should be included in wikipedia. Dwilso 12:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe some discussion is warranted for this. As is currently referenced very early in the article, Toyota overtook GM for the first quarter of 2008 in global sales. However, is there a better way of wording it, and also, is it something that needs to be changed on the basis of a single quarter instead of year-by-year totals? Ayocee ( talk) 23:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I find it surprising that you can talk about GM without mentioning much about the history of its collective bargaining, and without ever mentioning the Flint Sit-Down Strike, which was a pivot point in his history and the history of organized labor. It's like there was no history, bargaining or otherwise, before 2007. 7&6=thirteen ( talk) 22:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC) Stan
IMO this article should at least mention the current CAW strike. -- Gordon Ecker ( talk) 23:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
This article claims GM is the 'world's largest automaker' which is exactly the same claim made in the article about Toyota. The Toyota claim is backed up by citations however, the GM claim isn't.
Incidentally the phrase 'world's largest' needs defining since it could mean anything for example, most employees, largest profit, largest turnover, most production plants, most vehicles produced, most vehicles sold, etc.
~~'BS detector'~~ 2nd July 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 07:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
GM's perch atop the global sales leader charts ended earlier this year, and it is highly unlikely it will regain the spot in time to claim the title for calendar year 2008. It is deceptive to use terms like "has been" which imply "ongoing" under such circumstances, unless additional information about Toyota is provided. That information was removed, so I changed the phrasing to From 1911-2007, GM was the world's largest automaker as measured by global industry sales. If you change it back to "has been" please restore the information about Toyota. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 23:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
With reference to the current opening paragraph, what does 'global industry sales' mean? Does it mean the selling of 'global industries' or 'industry sales' around the globe? if it is the former, I don't believe GM has sold ANY 'global industries' and if it is the later, what is an 'industry sale'?
Wouldn't 'as measured by the number of vehicles sold annually' be less ambiguous?
The link that is provided (#7) actually states the opposite of the implied claim. If anyone actually bothers to read the article they will see that it says, "the slowdown in the United States market had led to a first-quarter sales decline that gave Toyota the early lead in this year’s global sales race".
~~BS detector~~ 7th July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 16:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
GM was the annual leader in the most recent official statistics, and that is what should be stated in the article lead, not speculation that Toyota is about to overtake it. However, I think the lead should include something on the serious financial problems GM is facing, including large scale layoffs and the huge loss booked in the last fiscal year (I believe the largest loss booked by a company in a single year ever). TastyCakes ( talk) 17:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes Gr1st I agree, that is because ‘currently number 1’ doesn’t mean anything. Just like ‘global industry sales’ it could mean almost anything. Unless a clearly defined phrase is used, readers will infer whatever they want.
As I suggested earlier, 'as measured by the number of vehicles sold annually' would end the confusion over ‘annual sales’ versus ‘last quarter’ sales. The inclusion of the word ‘vehicle’ is important because both GM and Toyota sell many other things besides vehicles. For all we know ‘industry sales’ could include snacks from vending machines in GM showrooms.
~~'BS detector'~~ 10th July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.138.200 ( talk) 01:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=au.TL_ofjGuM&refer=home
GM's $15.5 Billion Loss (2Q 2008)Is Third-Biggest in a Century and Wikipedia is mum! What a fine encylopedia !!!
Grüsse aus Deutschland. 79.210.122.160 ( talk) 22:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Where do they keep getting this money to lose? Comradeash ( talk) 00:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Who introduced planned obsolescence into production? I'm thinking it was Harley Earl, but... Add it here, here, & here, if you can name him. Thanks. (We can safely rule out Henry...) TREKphiler hit me ♠ 21:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC) Moefuzz ( talk) 05:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
http://laramie.willshireltd.com/DynamicObsolescence.html
moe Moefuzz ( talk) 05:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to let the editors of this page know that I had an editor ask for help concerning the article, seen here and here. Feel free to take these comments for what they are. Of course, there is always trouble with this sort of thing, and having not read the article I cant make an opinion for myself, but usually if someone finds something wrong with an article, then there usually is something wrong :/ Thanks for your time and any improvements you all can make! :) « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 04:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Why do we even have this section? Certainly it doesn't need expanding. For an article on a hundred-year old company - one of the largest companies in the world, this incident seems to minor to warrant much article space. Rmhermen ( talk) 22:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
It apears GM is going sadly bancrupt now [ [12]]. [ [13]] -- 86.29.249.32 ( talk) 10:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
"GM has prided its research and prototype development of hydrogen powered vehicles"
This seems bias to me. Things that might be hurtful to GM's image, like downsizing and strikes seem to be underrepresented and taboo.
C41-8W 11/27/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by C41-8W ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
This article, nor the history article for GM, mention when General Motors moved from Flint to Detroit. Can someone do some research and find this? It's a very important date, because its the start of when GM went from being a local/regional company, to a national and global corporation. -- Criticalthinker ( talk) 10:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
It is a little redundant to talk about "Who Killed the Electric Car" in both Electric Car Issues and in Electric Car. Also, I believe that the EV1 does not have to have that big of a space in this article, since it has its own article about it.-- 'Vette Dude1 ( talk) 01:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/bob-lutz-to-ret.html
Bob Lutz, GM Vice Chairman – Global Product Development, will retire at the end of 2009. In the interim, he will move into a new role, effective 1 April 2009, as Vice Chairman and Senior Advisor to continue to provide strategic input into GM’s global design and key product initiatives.
Tom Stephens, currently Executive Vice President, Global Powertrain and Global Quality, will become Vice Chairman – Global Product Development, reporting to President and Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson. In this new assignment, Stephens will maintain his responsibility for overseeing GM’s global quality activity.
I didn't see any Bio for him at Thomas_Stevens. -- Jake ( talk) 18:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I decided to flag the Advertising 2008–2009 section for needing updating: Every statement in that section has since already come and gone and thus no longer future but past events. I'm sure noone would object to it, and I assume the references would remain as is. Either way, the rest of the article stays current and once the job is finished the flag can come down. Not too much work. -Alan 24.184.184.130 ( talk) 02:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The introduction does not adequately summarize the article's contents. It is slanted toward recent events. Synchronism ( talk) 00:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I think the intro is perfect. The first paragraph discusses when the company was founded, what it makes, how much and where. The second paragraph discusses very important recent material related to the possible impending collapse of the company and the filing for bankruptcy of one its divisions (Saab). By no means should the second paragraph be moved from the lead. Facts707 ( talk) 16:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Calamitybrook, who are you to decide whether that section had merit? Next time, how about if you don't have an improvement, you just leave it alone and wait for someone to fix it? That section might have needed work, but who are you to delete even the basis for it? I don't feel like it was your place to just delete the whole section because you disagreed with the content. Please, next time just edit it up so that it seems correct, or leave it alone. Unless you're a moderator and it was violating some kind of rule or something, don't try to squelch opposing viewpoints. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kemrin ( talk • contribs) 11:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
This section may be ok considering the recent events. 69.251.135.219 ( talk) 21:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
While this section contains a detailed timeline of events, it almost completely fails to mention GM's reaction to... No mention of the plant closings and idle-ings, layoff, buyouts, announced marquee closures, union renegotiations. Where is the mention of the actions GM has taken or announced? Rmhermen ( talk) 03:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
That's a strong assumption. 69.251.135.219 ( talk) 21:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
The update to the GM info template at the top changed the net income figure to $-6.0 billion from the previous figure of about $-30 billion. The new figure, however, is not the correct figure for use; The negative 6 billion dollars are first quarter net earnings for 2009, whereas the older figure, as well as all the other earnings figures in the template, are full-year 2008 statistics. In general, this inaccuracy is not acceptable, but because it's the general practice in corporation articles' templates to use the most recent full-year statistics, all from the same year, I'm changing back the Q1 2009 net income figure to the calendar year 2008 figure to match the others, rerouting citation [2] to the 2008 calendar year reports, and I will also recommend that, despite pending release of other statistics for Q1 2009, we don't change the template to single-quarter earnings reports and statistics, even if all the relevant data is had, because the norm is full year statistics.-- Merechriolus ( talk) 01:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
<a href=
http://www.autofinance247.com> Auto Finance </a>
The infobox says: Employees - 252,000 (2008)[2]. Is this the current number as well, or has it changed with any significance? How are we gonna know the numbers in two, three months when the company has changed so dramatically? 83.108.225.137 ( talk) 12:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I also just noticed the info box says 252,000 however the opening paragraph says 244,500. Which is the correct number? Bgautrea ( talk) 14:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
The bankruptcy of General Motors is scheduled for 0800 EDT 1 JUN 2009. [14] -- John Nagle ( talk) 22:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be an article on the GM bankruptcy, like there is for Chrysler? Chrysler bankruptcy 70.29.208.129 ( talk) 13:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
At the top of the page, it says this was the fourth largest, while in the Bankruptcy section at the bottom it says it is the third largest. Which is it? -- Gimmethegepgun ( talk) 17:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Before the court documents were actually filed, news sources were saying the third, and that is what most news sources who simply published the stories that they had prepared ahead of time reported. When I started n:U.S. manufacturer General Motors declares bankruptcy, I took the assets figure reported, by Bloomberg, that were in the actual filing, rather than estimates made ahead of time, and a table of prior bankruptcies from New Generation Research. GM ranked below the third and above the fourth in the NGR table. Ironically, as I was writing the Wikinews article, NGR updated its table, listing GM fourth. Since then, other news sources, such as the one cited in this article in these edits, have also done the same arithmetic as I and NGR did, and found it to be the fourth, not third. Uncle G ( talk) 19:03, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Someone keeps putting up this stuff about GM helping the Nazis. Which would be very interesting an all, but the reference sites are not what I would consider legitimate. Hell one of them is made to look like a news paper website, which its not, and the other two are some random conspiracy theory sites. Can someone please delete this?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.126.136 ( talk) 02:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I've moved the "Development of electronics for GM auto racing" section out into its |own article. It was way too long and detailed for a very niche part of GM (electronics for open-wheel racing) to be included on the main General Motors page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Polpo ( talk • contribs) 23:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
The news have it that General Motors as of today has split into New GM and Old GM — New GM, containing Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, and GMC, and Old GM, containing designated bad assets such as Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, Saab — and Old GM to be headed (and beheaded) by Al Koch. My suggestion is to keep the article - and the topic about the historic automaker, and create two new articles New GM and Old GM for the "new" companies started today. Dedalus ( talk) 20:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
GM will not be remembered for its fuel efficient cars, but for its iconic cars. Surely, a picture of an old car would be better than yet another hybrid? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.36.241.5 ( talk) 08:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the second sentence of the introduction should be changed from "It is the world's second-largest automaker..." to "It was the world's second-largest automaker ... in 2008". In the current year, they have fallen behind German Volkswagen (and possibly other companies as well). -- Roentgenium111 ( talk) 19:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Some of the citations are just bare URLs, often long ones. I've been fixing them up, but don't have time to do all of them right now. Please help. And if you put a reference in, use the proper citation template, please.
I switched the reflist back to single-column mode until this is done. That's temporary. Otherwise, we get text on top of text, which looks awful. As soon as the remaining bad refs are cleaned up, we can go back to 3 columns of references. Thanks. -- John Nagle ( talk) 21:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Should we put into the intro, GM, or General Motors, is also refered to by the news media as "Government Motors" BronxNY ( talk) 14:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to put the "Corporate restructuring" section, which covers the 2006-2008 period, above the 2008-2009 section. They're both timelines, but out of sequence. Some of the history could be reordered, too, to bring it into time sequence. Comments? -- John Nagle ( talk) 17:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
GM's income statements say that 2008 operating profit was -21 billion, not positive like it says on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.49.30.56 ( talk) 02:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Is it possible to get an exact source for this? The Income Statement for General Motors Corporation at hotStocked.com gives annual gross operating profit to 12/2008 as +8,390 Million dollars. It does give the Total Net Income for the year as -30,860 Million dollars, but I can't find -21 billion anywhere. JamesBWatson ( talk) 08:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
The Cadillac page suggests that GM bought Cadillac in 1905, but the GM page suggests 1909. Can someone research/correct one of these? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.161.22 ( talk) 22:06, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I corrected it - obvious error (correct in GM section of same article) as GM did not exist in 1905. Possible confusion with date of merging with Leland's other company. 99.246.4.248 ( talk) 00:57, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The introduction currently says, "In 2008, 8.35 million GM cars and trucks were sold globally under the brands Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn and Wuling.[6]" Yet a little bit later, a brand named Hummer is mentioned as being up for sale. Why isn't this brand name in the initial list? Kdammers ( talk) 00:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Since emerging from bankruptcy earlier this morning I'd like to suggest that the following changes be made to reflect entries for the new and old General Motors.
1) The old article General Motors be renamed Motors Liquidation Company which is General Motors Corporation's new name which would provide only historical information about the defunt General Motors Corporation.
2) The General Motors Company LLC. article be redirected to General Motors with a link to For the former General Motors Corporation see Motors Liquidation Company
Dancing is Forbidden ( talk) 19:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The Vehicle Acquisition Holdings article (now officially called "General Motors Company") and this article need major rewriting. Once the rewriting takes place, this article should be named " Motors Liquidation Company" and the article about the new GM should adopt the General Motors Company name. 67.167.133.74 ( talk) 15:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Maynard, MIcheline (July 10, 2009).
"A Primer on the New General Motors". New York Times. Retrieved July 10, ,2009. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)
Q: What happens to old G.M.?
A: It remains in bankruptcy. Assets, like brands, factories and other operations will be liquidated over the next few years. Albert A. Koch, an expert in restructuring, is overseeing that process. Old G.M. is now known as the Motors Liquidation Company.
Qutation
It has been proposed that the General Motors Company LLC article be merged into this article. Steelbeard1 ( talk) 18:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I fixed the UCS report stuff to be clear. GM was 7th out of the top 8 selling carmakers where 8th is worst. Also the report basically "debunks" the under 30, it can't be used as a reference for that as it states that the "most under 30" is bogus and that GM is counting the coup and hatchback of the same model as separate. Citing this report to source the claim which the report refutes is bad form to say the least. Not against reporting teh claim just misusing the source in this way. Reboot ( talk) 05:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I modified the intro to reflect changes caused the the bankruptcy:
from
Changes were reverted by ThomasPaine1776 with out reason given. Which do you prefer? Daniel.Cardenas ( talk) 00:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
We could use a verifiable journalistic citation of the claim that 10% of the New GM is held by the old GM. Does this imply that stockholders of what is now GMGMQ stock owns 10% of the new GM? I've been under the impression that "old GM" stock will be worthless. Steelbeard1 ( talk) 18:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The 10% share is for the former stakeholders. Thomas Paine1776 ( talk) 20:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
So am I under the impression that those who own 100 shares of "Old GM" will receive 10 shares of "New GM" stock? Steelbeard1 ( talk) 21:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
No they won't because GM Company does not have any publicly traded stock, the interested is held as Debtor-in-Possession. Dancing is Forbidden ( talk) 23:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Management continues to remind investors of its strong belief that there will be no value for the common stockholders in the bankruptcy liquidation process, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the company's secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied. In this case, management strongly believes all such claims will not be fully satisfied, leading to its conclusion that the common stock will have no value.
None of the publicly owned stocks or bonds issued by the former General Motors Corporation (now renamed "Motors Liquidation Company"), including its common stock formerly traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker symbol "GM", are or will become securities of General Motors Company (the "new GM"), which is an independent separate company. All of these securities relate to Motors Liquidation Company, and will be treated in accordance with the provisions of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code and the rulings of the Bankruptcy court.
{{
cite web}}
: Text "accessdate - July 10, 2009" ignored (
help){{
cite web}}
: Text "accessdate - July 10, 2009" ignored (
help)</ref>Due to the misleading wording about "Old GM" owning 9.8% of "New GM", I've renamed the company in question Motors Liquidation Co. in the infobox. Steelbeard1 ( talk) 03:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
In reference to the first sentence of the article, 'General Motors Corporation was a global automaker'. Since when has General Motors entered into the past tense? The company has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and will emerge, as has been quoted in the media, 'in a matter of months' as a more 'competitve company'. I edited the 'was' to 'is', but is has since been changed again, is there any valid reason for doing this? MasterOfHisOwnDomain ( talk) 17:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Please keep the Ron Paul slant OUT of this article. The early 2000 recession was not caused by federal reserve, nor was the stock market decline. Until you can dig up a reputable source (something other that long-debunked Mises economics w/ any empirics), it is incorrect —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halik007 ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I should add, you can make the argument that it was Fed's loose monetary policy that lead up to the .com speculative bubble. The stock market decline, however, was a correction to the economic reality and not a result of FED tightening. If you're interested in the topic, grab a copy of [15]. It was recommended to me by Paolo Pasquariello
Greenspan admitted his mistakes led to the current crisis and the fedss intention in raising rates was to lower the stock market. Fed tightening in part caused the slow down. Thomas Paine1776 ( talk) 22:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I can see throughout the article there is a lot of POV pushing regarding gov bailout funds, unsourced content and other inaccuracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gibeberish ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me the whole article is in need of reorganisation and a change in tone of writing. Jonathan McLeod ( talk) 00:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
"GM's higher labor costs compared to its competitors, resulting from its union agreements and pension costs, have contributed significantly to its financial problems.[citation needed] " -- This is terribly inaccurate, and is only opinion from conservative thinkers. The CEOs have already said in Congress that wages are *not* the problem as it only accounts for 10% of the industry's cost. (JF)June 01, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.190.121 ( talk) 18:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
-- 98.134.54.15 ( talk) 14:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
wp:lead says the intro should be a concise summary of the article. ThomasPaine is removing things that are unflattering in the intro and asking it to be kept short. I believe the info on how bankruptcy is working should be restored to the intro. What do you think? Thx, Daniel.Cardenas ( talk) 19:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
The article has had major issues with length. GM has emerged from Chapter 11. All the information is covered in the appropriate places and in sub articles. Thomas Paine1776 ( talk) 00:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is almost completely uncritical and gives undue weight to the company's marketing initiatives. I would like to see balanced coverage restored to the article such as that removed by Thomas Paine from the end of the Company overview section:
Nevertheless, General Motors (as well as its American competitors Ford Motor Company and Chrysler Group) are now under great stress and have suffered from high costs, tougher competition from foreign competitors and a decline in the popularity of their most profitable pick-up trucks and sport utility vehicles. General Motors faces continuing pressure to halt its steady slide in market share. Its cost structure, burdened by a strong union which over the years negotiated high wages, healthcare and pension benefits, has taken its toll on the company as foreign competitors have increased production at non-union factories in the United States and Canada. [1]
It is about time that coverage of the causes of GM problems should be included this article. -- Gavin Collins ( talk| contribs) 12:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed "Vehicles of most, if not all, of GM's brands have been represented in competition, with perhaps Chevrolet being the most prominent." as Chevrolet is most prominent to whom? For me personally Holden is the most proinent brand and I expect someone in Europe will say something else... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.251.161 ( talk) 04:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
This article has an extreme case of the recency effect. Almost everything in the article is about what they're currently doing, or the events of the last couple of years. The history section is a blip. GM was the most important corporation in America for multiple decades. Tempshill ( talk) 16:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, yes, some people don't like the bailouts, but I think there is undue weight being placed on GM's ownership status and that pejorative nickname "Government Motors." Some people call Ford "Found On Road Dead" but we wouldn't include that in the article, would we?-- A Second Man in Motion ( talk) 21:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
This matter of terminology when referring to the Canadian executives has come up before (i.e. at Ontario Legislative Building) and the result was always that "Government of Canada" is too ambiguous a term; at the article Government of Canada#Usage this is explained: "In Canadian English, the word government is used to refer both to the whole set of institutions that govern the country, as well as the current political leadership." In fact, this doesn't go far enough, as the constitution (and hence the courts) also defines "government of Canada" to be the Queen-in-Council. Only the latter has ownership in GM, in both federal and provincial jurisdictions. Why, then, is it better to use confusing and lazy terminology when the accurate term is right there? -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 12:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I've changed "Elizabeth II" to "The Crown", as they are, by Canadian law, synonymous, but the latter de-personalises the term. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I know Chevrolet has used the same logo for many years. I would suggest you use only the outline of the logo in Chrome and not fill in the center. This would make a more state of the art look to compete with other popular logos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.144.169.76 ( talk) 22:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)