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Thank you for your comments on my page, i found them very helpful. Your project seems to be coming along nicely. I think you could use a few more references, and some more "wikification". all of your chapters are good, and just need some expansion. I feel like you are headed in the right direction, and with some tweaking, you will have a very solid wiki entry. happyfriend77
Hey article looks good so far. I realized you only had three citation so I did a quick search and found an article about gender representation in online reviews of video games. I am not sure if this is something you would want to discuss on your page but here is the link if you are interested in giving it a look. http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jivory/JIvory2006MassCommunicationandSociety.pdf Keep up the good work ( Abulak ( talk) 13:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC))
There's a proposal to merge this article with the article Portrayal of women in video games at Talk:Portrayal of women in video games#Merge proposal, you're invited to join the discussion. Diego ( talk) 20:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
My previous edits to the section "Objectification and sexualization", were undone per WP:CLAIM. Although the sources in that section may be cited, and regarding the article as a whole, what constitutes objectification and sexualization varies to an extent (especially by culture); this is even evident in the article on Sexual objectification. Is it possible to reword the article so that it's clear that it's representing the arbitrary views as to what and where sexualization or objectification is, etc. of those who are making the arguments and/or the sources cited, and not in a way that can be confused with presenting said views as those of Wikipedia? In other words, more or less like how it's done in the Sexual objectification article. Shrewmania ( talk) 09:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I've undone an addition of a {{ POV}} tag that was added because "There are 5 sub-sections about Portrayal of women, and only 1 section about Portrayal of men, and that section is smaller than any of the sub-sections". That, however, does not mean that the article promotes a particular point of view (which one?) It simply reflects that the portrayal of women in games has found more attention in research than that of men. Or perhaps that there is equivalent research about men, but it hasn't been added yet. Even in this case, the correct response would not be to add a POV tag, but to indicate what specifically should be done to improve the article. Sandstein 08:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Category:Video games featuring female protagonists, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at
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Read!
Talk! 11:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
How does the 'video games featuring female protagonists' list gather information? It appears to be generated automatically? I've noticed a few exclusions, even with a 'null edit' update. For example, I see
Silent Hill 3 missing from the female protagonists list and instead included on the female antagonists list.
Ashesnbones (
talk) 19:43, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
The studies sub-section under Depiction of violence against Woman really pales in comparison to the rest of the article. featuring things that go against the manual of style (hypothesizing, vague,) overall making this article sound like an editorial. It's not exactly the way it's written though but mainly because the source is inconclusive, vague and overall unreliable. The section doesn't really need it anyway as it already features more solid examples rather then frankly bizarre social experiments. I'm going to delete it tomorrow if nobody objects. BallroomBlitzkriegBebop ( talk) 00:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
The links point to pages that yield an "Internal Server Error" message. How prevelant are the reported effects? Are there other studies that yielded different results? Shrewmania ( talk) 19:32, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Due to the large impact it had I was thinking of adding some of the things mentioned in Anita Sarkeesian's "Tropes Vs Women in Video Games" series. more specifically the "Miss Male Trope" characters who are just feminized versions of an existing male character. Shadeturret ( talk) 22:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Since the section on women is too small to split into a separate article according to the rules of thumb noted here, we should focus primary efforts on finding ways of expanding the mentioned section. Obviously, this is a tall order: female stereotyping in games has been more focused upon than male, yet male characters are very frequently subjected to similar treatment. Can anyone help find references for such instances, or people commenting on such instances, whether they be books or online references? Also, the way the article is structured seems a little imbalanced. Any suggestions on that? I have my own ideas, but I would rather not act on them at once as this is an article dealing with an important and potentially-sensitive topic. -- ProtoDrake ( talk) 14:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
As for balance... well, I don't view it as unbalanced. We don't see discussion of the "portrayal of men" in video games nearly as often for several reasons:
Of course, this is partially a non-neutral POV, but that's how I read it - the sources don 't exist because the problem isn't really a problem. We see the issue with female characters because female characters are, more often than not, heavily-flawed and usually feature significant problems common in the industry, such as excessive sexualization ( Ivy Valentine), weakening ( Samus Aran), relative uselessness ( Princess Peach), "token girl" ( Chun-Li, at first), etc. We do not see this same level of sexualization in male characters, and the act of retroactively making a male character weak is not entirely common. While Tomb Raider was not as bad as people expected in that area, it still was an origin story about how Lara Croft suffered and toiled to become the hero that she was. This is a rare thing in established video game character canon - Nathan Drake, Mario, Butt Strife, Sonic the Hedgehog, Gordon Freeman, Master Chief - we don't see these things happening for these characters. But I'm getting off-topic - the meat of the matter is that certain things are discussed more than other things. The section which covers the portrayal of men should not by default be the same size or even similar size to the portrayal of females section if the sources do not exist in the first place. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 16:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Did what I could to clean up the article. "Deep" articles like this tend to stagnate without someone watching them. New editors, anons, and fanboys come along and add all kinds of poorly sourced, POV junk, and I've done my best to remove it. I hope that helps if some significant expansion is planned. PraetorianFury ( talk) 18:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Ars Technica posted an article this week about this very topic - see [1]. It should be used to expand the section. Diego ( talk) 17:33, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm interested in mentioning how female player characters appear in marketing as opposed to their male counterparts. Shadeturret ( talk) 03:54, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
The article is labeled with the Male, Female and LGBT categories not because it describes a particular character, but because it describes the concept of those characters. It therefore is working as the main article "which describes the subject of that category" for these categories, which don't have stand-alone articles on their own for their specific concepts (all those articles were merged here). I've reinstated the categories for this reason. Diego ( talk) 11:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
This article doesn't deal with sexism in video gaming, but deals with the portrayal of genders in video games. I think that an article directly dealing with this topic could be made from the sexual harassment in video gaming article, as it goes beyond the scope of sexual harassment. I already did it on the French wikipedia, but here, the page "Sexism in video gaming" is used as a redirect. Is that okay with you? Jelt ( talk) 21:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Here are a few concerns:
1. The 48% women statistic in the lede is disputed and has some nuance. As such, it shouldn't be in the lede, but have its own section. I'll move this to its own subsection so it can be better addressed.
2. The paragraph on Tomb Raider and sexual violence makes claims that are disputed. They should therefore not be stated as fact. I've fixed this.
3. Too many of the contentious claims are supported by only one source, which source is treated as fact. This needs to be fixed. I'll work on it.
4. Generally, the article needs cleaning up and better organisation.
Willhesucceed ( talk) 20:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure I post this at the right intersection, but I'm a bit irritated about the mentioning of Ada Wong as a Sidekick. In the first Resident Evil were two playable main-characters, one of them Jill Valentine. Yes, in RE4 there was no playable female, but in most of the other RE-Games you could play a female main-char. So why focusing on a sidekick if there are female main-chars available. Wouldn't this make Ada Wong a bad choice for supporting chars?
Here's a bunch of high-quality sources about female depiction, let's see if we can work them in Depiction of women. Diego ( talk) 08:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Here's a couple of references expanding on the topics of this article. Ars Technica says how studios are still wary of publishing games with a female protagonist, and Totalxbox has an interview with Gears of War's designers who explain the efforts they took (facing both technical and cultural problems) to design female characters that don't fall into the stereotype of sexy woman. Diego ( talk) 10:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
An encouraging tale about representation of gender issues and human relations in games. " Isn’t it odd how it’s taken so long to reach this stage in games – the stage at which human conversations and relationships feel real?" [4] Diego ( talk) 17:07, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
The studies linked are rather... questionable in my opinion. There has to be better links saying basically the same thing but without the GOAL of showing women as 50% of the market.
1:st source is 404ed (here's their new link if someone wants to fix since I'm not certain how to do it: http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ESA_EF_2014.pdf). It does indeed show women comprise 48% of people playing games, but the study uses anyone who's ever touched a video game as gamers. The whole part of the study that mentions gender just seems to be made to get the result that women make up around 50% of the gamers. Their definition of what a game player is, is so broad that it could almost be considered a study in how many women there are compared to men in the richer parts of the world. This part pretty much screams bias: Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (36%) than boys age 18 or younger (17%)"
Here's a study (used in other articles on wikipedia as well) that shows similar results but doesn't make statements like that: http://www.isfe.eu/sites/isfe.eu/files/attachments/euro_summary_-_isfe_consumer_study.pdf
Sadly, this one also has a very broad definition of what a gamer is (used a game once the last 12 months = gamer) and won't compare time spent gaming to gender even though it has the information (it's capable of checking what games the different genders play AND the time gamers spend on average).
2:nd source has no sources or studies itself and is basically a blogpost from what I understand. However, google translate might mess with some of the things. Source states the % with no reference to any study done. Written on wiki as fact even though there's not even a study behind it. There must be a better source for this.
3:rd source says that women make up x% of the gaming market in different categories, but the study is made by looking at game PURCHASES and not actual gaming. People who buy games are not the same as the people who play them.
9:th "critics have more control over sales than we think" "Games that allow you to choose your gender are reviewed better than games that offer male-only heroes, but the games with male only heroes sold better." "Female-led games do find an easier path to get covered" "Games with only female heroes are given half the marketing budget as games with male heroes. That’s an enormous handicap that cripples their ability to sell well. “Games with a female only protagonist, got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 percent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually”" "Games with exclusively male heroes sold around 75 percent better than games with only female heroes." Conclusion? "Games with exclusively female heroes don’t sell (because publishers don’t support them)" Feels dishonest to fraise everything like this and it's so full of fuzzy stats that it's impossible to know what's the results are... Some of the statements even contradict others. Basically female-only games get more cover, same reviews and get a higher budget on marketing compared to their sales. They state that critics/reviews control sales yet say that female-only games have no chance. The part in wikipedia about it is pretty much subjective statements from the article except for the part that there's few female heroes.
10:th not availible on the internet. Traesket ( talk) 15:11, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
I noticed you needed to know which version of the fighting game Tekken either keeps the female characters youthful despite a 20 year passage of time, or replaces them with their daughters. That happened in Tekken 3. Nina and Anna Williams were frozen, while Julia Chang is the 18 year old daughter of Michelle Chang with the exact same moves. Possible references could be the character descriptions of these fighters from Tekkenpedia: http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Nina_Williams http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Anna_Williams http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Julia_Chang
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Hello everyone. I came across some information that I believe would be well suited for section 2.4.1: Prevalence.
My proposed addition is as follows: According to an analysis conducted by Downs and Smith, playable and plot relevant characters in the 60 best selling video games of 2003 were predominantly male. Females who were depicted were frequently sexualized. The female characters analyzed were depicted partially naked or with unrealistic proportions more often than the male characters were. [1]
I believe the most appropriate place for the addition would be before the sentence "A study of 225 video game covers found that both male and female character's physiques were over-exaggerated, but women were more "physically altered" (especially in the bust) than their male counterparts, and even more so if the female was the main character of the game."
If anyone has any thoughts about this, I would appreciate the feedback. Thank you. NothingAboutFlowers ( talk) 03:27, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
References
Hello, everyone. I have several sources that I believe will be of use for expanding this article. I have listed them below:
"Gaming at the Edge: Sexuality and Gender at the Margins of Gamer Culture" by Adrienne Shaw [1]
"Dressing Commander Shepard in pink: Queer playing in a heteronormative game culture" by Ondřej Moravec, et. al. [2]
"Acting like a Tough Guy: Violent-Sexist Video Games, Identification with Game Characters, Masculine Beliefs, & Empathy for Female Violence Victims." by Alessandro Gabbiadini, et. al. [3]
"The virtual census: representations of gender, race and age in video games." by Dmitri Williams, et. al. [4]
"Putting the Gay in Games Cultural Production and GLBT Content in Video Games" by Adrienne Shaw [5]
"Do You Identify As a Gamer? Gender, Race, Sexuaity, and Gamer Identity" By Adrienne Shaw [6]
"Confronting Heteronormativity in Online Games" By Alexis Pulos [7]
"Rated M for Mature : Sex and Sexuality in Video Games" By Wysocki and Lauteria. [8]
"Hot Dates and Fairytale Romances: Studying Sexuality in Video Games" By Mia Consalvo [9]
"A Gay History of Gaming" By Keza Macdonald [10]
NothingAboutFlowers ( talk) 01:55, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
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link)
1. In the Portrayal of Women: Forms section, the statement is made that almost every example of female protagonists in games are motivated by an outward source; this statement lacks a citation and possibly a source, as the previous citation listed is only regarding a specific game and not games in general. 2. The lead section openly states that women are underrepresented in video games, while the section on women takes up a vast portion of the article on the whole and contains multiple subsections of different facets of the topic; we should look into finding more information for the men, LGBT, and effects sections. 3. Additionally, reference 51 is no longer hosted by the link provided; another host site should be found or the reference modified to exclude the hyperlink. Esperacchias ( talk) 00:35, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I hope everyone is having a good day. I have a contribution that will address one of Esperacchias’ concerns: expanding upon the Portrayal of LGBT Characters section. I propose that the first two sentences in the section be removed, as they are both unsourced and the second is not expanded upon. I would also like to make the following addition:
“Shaw states that video games are a heteronormative media. After interviewing 12 individuals who write about or contribute to the production of video games, Shaw concludes that the lack of LGBT representation in video games is due to several aspects of the medium. These include the demographic of those who play games, the attitudes of those who create games, the risk of backlash in the industry, and the storytelling limitations of the medium. [1]
Choice based LGBT content, such as optional same sex romance in Bioware games [2] , is a low- risk [3] form of representation that occurs only in video games [4]. When representation is included, it is often through in-game choices that place the responsibility for representation on players instead of developers. In games with LGBT representation, some aspects of LGBT marginalization that occur in contemporary culture are depicted despite the game's overall adherence to reality [5] Both Shaw’s interviewees [6] and LGBT players [7] prefer LGBT representation to be normalized rather than made to seem abnormal or special.
LGBT gamers use queer readings of media to compensate for their lack of representation in it. [8] As concluded in a study by Moravec, this “imaginative play” is the most common method LGBT gamers use to relate to in game avatars. [9] ”
This is still just a draft of my contribution, so if anyone has any suggestions, critique, or feedback about where to place this information in the section I would appreciate hearing it. NothingAboutFlowers ( talk) 21:56, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Actually, come to think of it, I question whether the whole section even belongs in this article, and whether you should not rather work this into LGBT themes in video games and LGBT characters in video games. Sexuality is something quite distinct from gender, and while there are some parallel issues, the topics can't easily be amalgamated. Also there are WP:CFORK issues arising from covering the topic in three places. Sandstein 23:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
I added Gamergate to the "See also" section and it was removed. From that article:
(My emphasis.) Lot of references in that article. It seems of more than tangential usefulness: a reader who makes it through all of this article may well be interested in that one. Carbon Caryatid ( talk) 20:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
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In the current revision of this page, the line "Video games are a heteronormative media." is present, with two citations. One is to this chapter from the book The Video Game Theory Reader, wherein the author explains their belief that video games are a heteronormative media through their anecdotal experiences with video games such as The Sims and Final Fantasy IX. At no point does the author make the sweeping claim that the entirety of video games are heteronormative, nor would this chapter support that statement if they did (though it provides excellent specific examples of heteronormative bias in video games). The other citation is to this paper, wherein a group of students from Charles University in Prague sought to further the concept that video games are biased towards heteronormative interests by interviewing a group of LGBT gamers. While the article paints an argument which supports the idea that video games are a heteronormative media, it stops short of making the generalization that video game as a whole are a heteronormative media:
Because neither citation explicitly supports a claim which appears to otherwise be subjective in nature (Who decides what is objectively heteronormative? How do you quantify heteronormativity in games?), I was planning to replace it with a statement that unambiguously adheres to WP:NPOV, either by more accurately representing the paper's findings on heteronormative bias in video games, or by removing the line outright. Looking at earlier talk sections, I see that changing this line may possibly be contentious, so I'll leave this here for everyone's consideration. FlotillaFlotsam ( talk) 05:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
...it is not a video-game-specific issue. Common in films, even before modern computers existed. Equinox ◑ 01:05, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello,
I've reverted your edit at Gender representation in video games.
I believe that the statement altered ("Video games are a heteronormative media") violates WP:NPOV, as this claim is neither substantiated by the citations given, nor is it a blatantly observable fact. I altered this phrase in the belief that it's ultimately better to be overly-specific regarding attribution for a potentially contentious claim than to have Wikipedia state it as an objective truth. While I tried to restructure the statement to neither appear objective nor discredit its citations, there may be a better way to word it; would you mind chiming in on the talk page for the article? I'd appreciate it if you could provide more insight, both on the reasons for your revert and what should be done now. FlotillaFlotsam ( talk) 05:23, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi there. I would like to add more information to Lara Croft's character in the Evolution header. I would like to include more information from Tracey Deitz article [5] into her character analysis. I'd also like to include less vague terms for what research and reoccuring themes in articles and discussion mean in terms of the Sexulization header. This would be narrowed down by certain game theories that Tracey Deitz detailed in her journal and Beasley and Collins-Stanley detailed in their evaluations in this journal [6] about gender roles and the impact that sexualization has on children as they engage with these games. Hopejanice22 ( talk) 15:15, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Children? What makes you think that the main demographic for these games are children? Per video game culture: "As of 2016, the average age for a video game player is 35, a number slowly increasing as people who were children playing the first arcade, console and home computer games continue playing now on current systems." ... "The average age of players across the globe is mid to late 20s, and is increasing as older players grow in numbers." Dimadick ( talk) 06:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
i am workin on this page and I am adding information in some sections like "as antagonists" and "as supporting characters." -- Jordangentry ( talk) 19:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
Women need a corresponding "as powerful", while men need "as player characters", "as supporting characters", "as antagonists", and "violence against men". SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 10:21, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
Also for I don't know how long an illustration here was something that wasn't even real in any way. It was /info/en/?search=File:VisualNovelGame.png with no indication it's a fake screenshot of a non-existing game in the caption. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 14:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Sexism In Gameing. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 19:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gamer’s gaze. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 19:18, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gamer’s Gaze. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 19:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Found this source. Video games have been around for 5+ decades now, and some historic context would help illustrate how this is evolving.
https://www.theringer.com/2020/5/12/21254593/first-person-shooter-perfect-dark-20th-anniversary-female-protagonists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:8720:3995:0:0:0:A ( talk) 18:22, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
"Although women make up about half of video game players, they are significantly underrepresented as characters in mainstream games, despite the prominence of iconic heroines such as Samus Aran or Lara Croft. "
No, women aren't half of "video game players" when it comes to most genres, especially the ones actively discussed in the article. They are only a small percentage of those who play RPG, MOBA, tactical, actions, and other genres (link below). The claim that women are also half of the whole population of players is also dubious, at best, and hugely depends on the definition of the words "player". In the end, I'm not sure why the whole page exists in the first place, as it's highly subjective.
/info/en/?search=Women_and_video_games#Genre_preferences
5.165.212.154 ( talk) 11:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
gamer demographics. For what it's worth, it does talk about the genre-specific differences, but even then, the most extreme difference (in FPSes) is merely 66%-34%, whereas (as the article notes further down) only 4% of action, shooter, and role-playing games have an exclusively female protagonist. -- Aquillion ( talk) 12:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I believe that since breast physics are largely notable in the context of the fact that they are an example of oversexualization of video game women, the article should be merged with the relevant article on the topic. A lot of other info in this article, like how breast physics are created, is irrelevant to the typical reader. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 01:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Is File:Alison Carroll 6.jpg the suitable lead image of this article? The whole intro mentions not just women but men and minorities as well. If the current image needs to be still used, why not adding another lead image showing a male? That way, Carroll on one side; male on the other. -- George Ho ( talk) 09:45, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
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I added a section with an objective, reliable, scientific study on this topic and it was removed on the grounds that it was "copied" from other websites. The user "Wiae" is completely out of line, and completely incorrect. I copied the words from the scientific reference itself, which was quoted on those other irrelevant websites he has tried to use as verifiable proof for taking down the reliable source. Reference is right here: [1]
Feel free to read it to your hearts content. Belregard ( talk) 04:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Try to refrain from personal attacks against other editors. XeCyranium ( talk) 22:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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"Furthermore, it has also been noted that while female characters' sexualization is done as fan service and treats them as objects, the sexualization of male characters is done as a male power fantasy. [...]" /info/en/?search=Gender_representation_in_video_games#:~:text=It%20has%20been,three.%5B102%5D
The measure for the objectification of male bodies should be pornographic imaging and exposure, like with women. The article perfectly makes that point later and is convincing about how male objectification is less common and different. Making an extra effort to belittle the objectification where it occurs is clearly straw-man-feminism. Especially when done by citing speculation in journalistic articles. Hyper-muscled, hyper-fit depictions are pushing unrealistic beauty standards and hinting pornography. Nobody denies that. Framing that as purely a "male power fantasy" is like calling women's objectification a "female vamp fantasy". There is no good reason to undermine specificity and bloating this already long article. Please remove the bloat. 2001:A61:12F1:CF01:1868:8661:7EAD:8F2 ( talk) 04:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
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Thank you for your comments on my page, i found them very helpful. Your project seems to be coming along nicely. I think you could use a few more references, and some more "wikification". all of your chapters are good, and just need some expansion. I feel like you are headed in the right direction, and with some tweaking, you will have a very solid wiki entry. happyfriend77
Hey article looks good so far. I realized you only had three citation so I did a quick search and found an article about gender representation in online reviews of video games. I am not sure if this is something you would want to discuss on your page but here is the link if you are interested in giving it a look. http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jivory/JIvory2006MassCommunicationandSociety.pdf Keep up the good work ( Abulak ( talk) 13:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC))
There's a proposal to merge this article with the article Portrayal of women in video games at Talk:Portrayal of women in video games#Merge proposal, you're invited to join the discussion. Diego ( talk) 20:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
My previous edits to the section "Objectification and sexualization", were undone per WP:CLAIM. Although the sources in that section may be cited, and regarding the article as a whole, what constitutes objectification and sexualization varies to an extent (especially by culture); this is even evident in the article on Sexual objectification. Is it possible to reword the article so that it's clear that it's representing the arbitrary views as to what and where sexualization or objectification is, etc. of those who are making the arguments and/or the sources cited, and not in a way that can be confused with presenting said views as those of Wikipedia? In other words, more or less like how it's done in the Sexual objectification article. Shrewmania ( talk) 09:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I've undone an addition of a {{ POV}} tag that was added because "There are 5 sub-sections about Portrayal of women, and only 1 section about Portrayal of men, and that section is smaller than any of the sub-sections". That, however, does not mean that the article promotes a particular point of view (which one?) It simply reflects that the portrayal of women in games has found more attention in research than that of men. Or perhaps that there is equivalent research about men, but it hasn't been added yet. Even in this case, the correct response would not be to add a POV tag, but to indicate what specifically should be done to improve the article. Sandstein 08:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Category:Video games featuring female protagonists, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at
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How does the 'video games featuring female protagonists' list gather information? It appears to be generated automatically? I've noticed a few exclusions, even with a 'null edit' update. For example, I see
Silent Hill 3 missing from the female protagonists list and instead included on the female antagonists list.
Ashesnbones (
talk) 19:43, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
The studies sub-section under Depiction of violence against Woman really pales in comparison to the rest of the article. featuring things that go against the manual of style (hypothesizing, vague,) overall making this article sound like an editorial. It's not exactly the way it's written though but mainly because the source is inconclusive, vague and overall unreliable. The section doesn't really need it anyway as it already features more solid examples rather then frankly bizarre social experiments. I'm going to delete it tomorrow if nobody objects. BallroomBlitzkriegBebop ( talk) 00:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
The links point to pages that yield an "Internal Server Error" message. How prevelant are the reported effects? Are there other studies that yielded different results? Shrewmania ( talk) 19:32, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Due to the large impact it had I was thinking of adding some of the things mentioned in Anita Sarkeesian's "Tropes Vs Women in Video Games" series. more specifically the "Miss Male Trope" characters who are just feminized versions of an existing male character. Shadeturret ( talk) 22:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Since the section on women is too small to split into a separate article according to the rules of thumb noted here, we should focus primary efforts on finding ways of expanding the mentioned section. Obviously, this is a tall order: female stereotyping in games has been more focused upon than male, yet male characters are very frequently subjected to similar treatment. Can anyone help find references for such instances, or people commenting on such instances, whether they be books or online references? Also, the way the article is structured seems a little imbalanced. Any suggestions on that? I have my own ideas, but I would rather not act on them at once as this is an article dealing with an important and potentially-sensitive topic. -- ProtoDrake ( talk) 14:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
As for balance... well, I don't view it as unbalanced. We don't see discussion of the "portrayal of men" in video games nearly as often for several reasons:
Of course, this is partially a non-neutral POV, but that's how I read it - the sources don 't exist because the problem isn't really a problem. We see the issue with female characters because female characters are, more often than not, heavily-flawed and usually feature significant problems common in the industry, such as excessive sexualization ( Ivy Valentine), weakening ( Samus Aran), relative uselessness ( Princess Peach), "token girl" ( Chun-Li, at first), etc. We do not see this same level of sexualization in male characters, and the act of retroactively making a male character weak is not entirely common. While Tomb Raider was not as bad as people expected in that area, it still was an origin story about how Lara Croft suffered and toiled to become the hero that she was. This is a rare thing in established video game character canon - Nathan Drake, Mario, Butt Strife, Sonic the Hedgehog, Gordon Freeman, Master Chief - we don't see these things happening for these characters. But I'm getting off-topic - the meat of the matter is that certain things are discussed more than other things. The section which covers the portrayal of men should not by default be the same size or even similar size to the portrayal of females section if the sources do not exist in the first place. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 16:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Did what I could to clean up the article. "Deep" articles like this tend to stagnate without someone watching them. New editors, anons, and fanboys come along and add all kinds of poorly sourced, POV junk, and I've done my best to remove it. I hope that helps if some significant expansion is planned. PraetorianFury ( talk) 18:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Ars Technica posted an article this week about this very topic - see [1]. It should be used to expand the section. Diego ( talk) 17:33, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm interested in mentioning how female player characters appear in marketing as opposed to their male counterparts. Shadeturret ( talk) 03:54, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
The article is labeled with the Male, Female and LGBT categories not because it describes a particular character, but because it describes the concept of those characters. It therefore is working as the main article "which describes the subject of that category" for these categories, which don't have stand-alone articles on their own for their specific concepts (all those articles were merged here). I've reinstated the categories for this reason. Diego ( talk) 11:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
This article doesn't deal with sexism in video gaming, but deals with the portrayal of genders in video games. I think that an article directly dealing with this topic could be made from the sexual harassment in video gaming article, as it goes beyond the scope of sexual harassment. I already did it on the French wikipedia, but here, the page "Sexism in video gaming" is used as a redirect. Is that okay with you? Jelt ( talk) 21:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Here are a few concerns:
1. The 48% women statistic in the lede is disputed and has some nuance. As such, it shouldn't be in the lede, but have its own section. I'll move this to its own subsection so it can be better addressed.
2. The paragraph on Tomb Raider and sexual violence makes claims that are disputed. They should therefore not be stated as fact. I've fixed this.
3. Too many of the contentious claims are supported by only one source, which source is treated as fact. This needs to be fixed. I'll work on it.
4. Generally, the article needs cleaning up and better organisation.
Willhesucceed ( talk) 20:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure I post this at the right intersection, but I'm a bit irritated about the mentioning of Ada Wong as a Sidekick. In the first Resident Evil were two playable main-characters, one of them Jill Valentine. Yes, in RE4 there was no playable female, but in most of the other RE-Games you could play a female main-char. So why focusing on a sidekick if there are female main-chars available. Wouldn't this make Ada Wong a bad choice for supporting chars?
Here's a bunch of high-quality sources about female depiction, let's see if we can work them in Depiction of women. Diego ( talk) 08:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Here's a couple of references expanding on the topics of this article. Ars Technica says how studios are still wary of publishing games with a female protagonist, and Totalxbox has an interview with Gears of War's designers who explain the efforts they took (facing both technical and cultural problems) to design female characters that don't fall into the stereotype of sexy woman. Diego ( talk) 10:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
An encouraging tale about representation of gender issues and human relations in games. " Isn’t it odd how it’s taken so long to reach this stage in games – the stage at which human conversations and relationships feel real?" [4] Diego ( talk) 17:07, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
The studies linked are rather... questionable in my opinion. There has to be better links saying basically the same thing but without the GOAL of showing women as 50% of the market.
1:st source is 404ed (here's their new link if someone wants to fix since I'm not certain how to do it: http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ESA_EF_2014.pdf). It does indeed show women comprise 48% of people playing games, but the study uses anyone who's ever touched a video game as gamers. The whole part of the study that mentions gender just seems to be made to get the result that women make up around 50% of the gamers. Their definition of what a game player is, is so broad that it could almost be considered a study in how many women there are compared to men in the richer parts of the world. This part pretty much screams bias: Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (36%) than boys age 18 or younger (17%)"
Here's a study (used in other articles on wikipedia as well) that shows similar results but doesn't make statements like that: http://www.isfe.eu/sites/isfe.eu/files/attachments/euro_summary_-_isfe_consumer_study.pdf
Sadly, this one also has a very broad definition of what a gamer is (used a game once the last 12 months = gamer) and won't compare time spent gaming to gender even though it has the information (it's capable of checking what games the different genders play AND the time gamers spend on average).
2:nd source has no sources or studies itself and is basically a blogpost from what I understand. However, google translate might mess with some of the things. Source states the % with no reference to any study done. Written on wiki as fact even though there's not even a study behind it. There must be a better source for this.
3:rd source says that women make up x% of the gaming market in different categories, but the study is made by looking at game PURCHASES and not actual gaming. People who buy games are not the same as the people who play them.
9:th "critics have more control over sales than we think" "Games that allow you to choose your gender are reviewed better than games that offer male-only heroes, but the games with male only heroes sold better." "Female-led games do find an easier path to get covered" "Games with only female heroes are given half the marketing budget as games with male heroes. That’s an enormous handicap that cripples their ability to sell well. “Games with a female only protagonist, got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 percent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually”" "Games with exclusively male heroes sold around 75 percent better than games with only female heroes." Conclusion? "Games with exclusively female heroes don’t sell (because publishers don’t support them)" Feels dishonest to fraise everything like this and it's so full of fuzzy stats that it's impossible to know what's the results are... Some of the statements even contradict others. Basically female-only games get more cover, same reviews and get a higher budget on marketing compared to their sales. They state that critics/reviews control sales yet say that female-only games have no chance. The part in wikipedia about it is pretty much subjective statements from the article except for the part that there's few female heroes.
10:th not availible on the internet. Traesket ( talk) 15:11, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
I noticed you needed to know which version of the fighting game Tekken either keeps the female characters youthful despite a 20 year passage of time, or replaces them with their daughters. That happened in Tekken 3. Nina and Anna Williams were frozen, while Julia Chang is the 18 year old daughter of Michelle Chang with the exact same moves. Possible references could be the character descriptions of these fighters from Tekkenpedia: http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Nina_Williams http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Anna_Williams http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Julia_Chang
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Hello everyone. I came across some information that I believe would be well suited for section 2.4.1: Prevalence.
My proposed addition is as follows: According to an analysis conducted by Downs and Smith, playable and plot relevant characters in the 60 best selling video games of 2003 were predominantly male. Females who were depicted were frequently sexualized. The female characters analyzed were depicted partially naked or with unrealistic proportions more often than the male characters were. [1]
I believe the most appropriate place for the addition would be before the sentence "A study of 225 video game covers found that both male and female character's physiques were over-exaggerated, but women were more "physically altered" (especially in the bust) than their male counterparts, and even more so if the female was the main character of the game."
If anyone has any thoughts about this, I would appreciate the feedback. Thank you. NothingAboutFlowers ( talk) 03:27, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
References
Hello, everyone. I have several sources that I believe will be of use for expanding this article. I have listed them below:
"Gaming at the Edge: Sexuality and Gender at the Margins of Gamer Culture" by Adrienne Shaw [1]
"Dressing Commander Shepard in pink: Queer playing in a heteronormative game culture" by Ondřej Moravec, et. al. [2]
"Acting like a Tough Guy: Violent-Sexist Video Games, Identification with Game Characters, Masculine Beliefs, & Empathy for Female Violence Victims." by Alessandro Gabbiadini, et. al. [3]
"The virtual census: representations of gender, race and age in video games." by Dmitri Williams, et. al. [4]
"Putting the Gay in Games Cultural Production and GLBT Content in Video Games" by Adrienne Shaw [5]
"Do You Identify As a Gamer? Gender, Race, Sexuaity, and Gamer Identity" By Adrienne Shaw [6]
"Confronting Heteronormativity in Online Games" By Alexis Pulos [7]
"Rated M for Mature : Sex and Sexuality in Video Games" By Wysocki and Lauteria. [8]
"Hot Dates and Fairytale Romances: Studying Sexuality in Video Games" By Mia Consalvo [9]
"A Gay History of Gaming" By Keza Macdonald [10]
NothingAboutFlowers ( talk) 01:55, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
{{
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1. In the Portrayal of Women: Forms section, the statement is made that almost every example of female protagonists in games are motivated by an outward source; this statement lacks a citation and possibly a source, as the previous citation listed is only regarding a specific game and not games in general. 2. The lead section openly states that women are underrepresented in video games, while the section on women takes up a vast portion of the article on the whole and contains multiple subsections of different facets of the topic; we should look into finding more information for the men, LGBT, and effects sections. 3. Additionally, reference 51 is no longer hosted by the link provided; another host site should be found or the reference modified to exclude the hyperlink. Esperacchias ( talk) 00:35, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I hope everyone is having a good day. I have a contribution that will address one of Esperacchias’ concerns: expanding upon the Portrayal of LGBT Characters section. I propose that the first two sentences in the section be removed, as they are both unsourced and the second is not expanded upon. I would also like to make the following addition:
“Shaw states that video games are a heteronormative media. After interviewing 12 individuals who write about or contribute to the production of video games, Shaw concludes that the lack of LGBT representation in video games is due to several aspects of the medium. These include the demographic of those who play games, the attitudes of those who create games, the risk of backlash in the industry, and the storytelling limitations of the medium. [1]
Choice based LGBT content, such as optional same sex romance in Bioware games [2] , is a low- risk [3] form of representation that occurs only in video games [4]. When representation is included, it is often through in-game choices that place the responsibility for representation on players instead of developers. In games with LGBT representation, some aspects of LGBT marginalization that occur in contemporary culture are depicted despite the game's overall adherence to reality [5] Both Shaw’s interviewees [6] and LGBT players [7] prefer LGBT representation to be normalized rather than made to seem abnormal or special.
LGBT gamers use queer readings of media to compensate for their lack of representation in it. [8] As concluded in a study by Moravec, this “imaginative play” is the most common method LGBT gamers use to relate to in game avatars. [9] ”
This is still just a draft of my contribution, so if anyone has any suggestions, critique, or feedback about where to place this information in the section I would appreciate hearing it. NothingAboutFlowers ( talk) 21:56, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Actually, come to think of it, I question whether the whole section even belongs in this article, and whether you should not rather work this into LGBT themes in video games and LGBT characters in video games. Sexuality is something quite distinct from gender, and while there are some parallel issues, the topics can't easily be amalgamated. Also there are WP:CFORK issues arising from covering the topic in three places. Sandstein 23:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
I added Gamergate to the "See also" section and it was removed. From that article:
(My emphasis.) Lot of references in that article. It seems of more than tangential usefulness: a reader who makes it through all of this article may well be interested in that one. Carbon Caryatid ( talk) 20:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
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In the current revision of this page, the line "Video games are a heteronormative media." is present, with two citations. One is to this chapter from the book The Video Game Theory Reader, wherein the author explains their belief that video games are a heteronormative media through their anecdotal experiences with video games such as The Sims and Final Fantasy IX. At no point does the author make the sweeping claim that the entirety of video games are heteronormative, nor would this chapter support that statement if they did (though it provides excellent specific examples of heteronormative bias in video games). The other citation is to this paper, wherein a group of students from Charles University in Prague sought to further the concept that video games are biased towards heteronormative interests by interviewing a group of LGBT gamers. While the article paints an argument which supports the idea that video games are a heteronormative media, it stops short of making the generalization that video game as a whole are a heteronormative media:
Because neither citation explicitly supports a claim which appears to otherwise be subjective in nature (Who decides what is objectively heteronormative? How do you quantify heteronormativity in games?), I was planning to replace it with a statement that unambiguously adheres to WP:NPOV, either by more accurately representing the paper's findings on heteronormative bias in video games, or by removing the line outright. Looking at earlier talk sections, I see that changing this line may possibly be contentious, so I'll leave this here for everyone's consideration. FlotillaFlotsam ( talk) 05:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
...it is not a video-game-specific issue. Common in films, even before modern computers existed. Equinox ◑ 01:05, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello,
I've reverted your edit at Gender representation in video games.
I believe that the statement altered ("Video games are a heteronormative media") violates WP:NPOV, as this claim is neither substantiated by the citations given, nor is it a blatantly observable fact. I altered this phrase in the belief that it's ultimately better to be overly-specific regarding attribution for a potentially contentious claim than to have Wikipedia state it as an objective truth. While I tried to restructure the statement to neither appear objective nor discredit its citations, there may be a better way to word it; would you mind chiming in on the talk page for the article? I'd appreciate it if you could provide more insight, both on the reasons for your revert and what should be done now. FlotillaFlotsam ( talk) 05:23, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi there. I would like to add more information to Lara Croft's character in the Evolution header. I would like to include more information from Tracey Deitz article [5] into her character analysis. I'd also like to include less vague terms for what research and reoccuring themes in articles and discussion mean in terms of the Sexulization header. This would be narrowed down by certain game theories that Tracey Deitz detailed in her journal and Beasley and Collins-Stanley detailed in their evaluations in this journal [6] about gender roles and the impact that sexualization has on children as they engage with these games. Hopejanice22 ( talk) 15:15, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Children? What makes you think that the main demographic for these games are children? Per video game culture: "As of 2016, the average age for a video game player is 35, a number slowly increasing as people who were children playing the first arcade, console and home computer games continue playing now on current systems." ... "The average age of players across the globe is mid to late 20s, and is increasing as older players grow in numbers." Dimadick ( talk) 06:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
i am workin on this page and I am adding information in some sections like "as antagonists" and "as supporting characters." -- Jordangentry ( talk) 19:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
Women need a corresponding "as powerful", while men need "as player characters", "as supporting characters", "as antagonists", and "violence against men". SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 10:21, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
Also for I don't know how long an illustration here was something that wasn't even real in any way. It was /info/en/?search=File:VisualNovelGame.png with no indication it's a fake screenshot of a non-existing game in the caption. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 14:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Sexism In Gameing. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 19:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gamer’s gaze. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 19:18, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gamer’s Gaze. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 19:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Found this source. Video games have been around for 5+ decades now, and some historic context would help illustrate how this is evolving.
https://www.theringer.com/2020/5/12/21254593/first-person-shooter-perfect-dark-20th-anniversary-female-protagonists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:8720:3995:0:0:0:A ( talk) 18:22, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
"Although women make up about half of video game players, they are significantly underrepresented as characters in mainstream games, despite the prominence of iconic heroines such as Samus Aran or Lara Croft. "
No, women aren't half of "video game players" when it comes to most genres, especially the ones actively discussed in the article. They are only a small percentage of those who play RPG, MOBA, tactical, actions, and other genres (link below). The claim that women are also half of the whole population of players is also dubious, at best, and hugely depends on the definition of the words "player". In the end, I'm not sure why the whole page exists in the first place, as it's highly subjective.
/info/en/?search=Women_and_video_games#Genre_preferences
5.165.212.154 ( talk) 11:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
gamer demographics. For what it's worth, it does talk about the genre-specific differences, but even then, the most extreme difference (in FPSes) is merely 66%-34%, whereas (as the article notes further down) only 4% of action, shooter, and role-playing games have an exclusively female protagonist. -- Aquillion ( talk) 12:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I believe that since breast physics are largely notable in the context of the fact that they are an example of oversexualization of video game women, the article should be merged with the relevant article on the topic. A lot of other info in this article, like how breast physics are created, is irrelevant to the typical reader. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 01:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Is File:Alison Carroll 6.jpg the suitable lead image of this article? The whole intro mentions not just women but men and minorities as well. If the current image needs to be still used, why not adding another lead image showing a male? That way, Carroll on one side; male on the other. -- George Ho ( talk) 09:45, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
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I added a section with an objective, reliable, scientific study on this topic and it was removed on the grounds that it was "copied" from other websites. The user "Wiae" is completely out of line, and completely incorrect. I copied the words from the scientific reference itself, which was quoted on those other irrelevant websites he has tried to use as verifiable proof for taking down the reliable source. Reference is right here: [1]
Feel free to read it to your hearts content. Belregard ( talk) 04:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Try to refrain from personal attacks against other editors. XeCyranium ( talk) 22:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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— Assignment last updated by Brennadele ( talk) 16:42, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
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— Assignment last updated by James073 ( talk) 04:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
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"Furthermore, it has also been noted that while female characters' sexualization is done as fan service and treats them as objects, the sexualization of male characters is done as a male power fantasy. [...]" /info/en/?search=Gender_representation_in_video_games#:~:text=It%20has%20been,three.%5B102%5D
The measure for the objectification of male bodies should be pornographic imaging and exposure, like with women. The article perfectly makes that point later and is convincing about how male objectification is less common and different. Making an extra effort to belittle the objectification where it occurs is clearly straw-man-feminism. Especially when done by citing speculation in journalistic articles. Hyper-muscled, hyper-fit depictions are pushing unrealistic beauty standards and hinting pornography. Nobody denies that. Framing that as purely a "male power fantasy" is like calling women's objectification a "female vamp fantasy". There is no good reason to undermine specificity and bloating this already long article. Please remove the bloat. 2001:A61:12F1:CF01:1868:8661:7EAD:8F2 ( talk) 04:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)