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This information is tainted with Israeli propaganda — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.141.85.217 ( talk) 14:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Nableezy I agree it is odd to call it a de facto sovereign state, but I do not know what other term is most accurate. Describing it as a "Palestinian enclave" with a hyperlink to an article about West Bank enclaves specifically is definitely not accurate, especially since the actual definition of an enclave does not include territories that border the ocean. I also think it should be mentioned that Hamas won the elections but Fatah refused to recognize the results, since that is the reason as to why Hamas only rules the Gaza strip and not the West Bank as well, and the PNA is already mentioned in the article, so additional clarification is necessary. Bill Williams 22:03, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
I agree bantustan is not the typical thing to call Gaza. I think enclave is often used, but not in the way that it is used in the article Palestinian enclaves, which is more about the disconnected areas within the West Bank, though Gaza is sometimes also treated as that. I do not think state, de facto or any other qualifier notwithstanding, is appropriate. The results on "palestinian territory" are skwewed by all the results that include it within the "Occupied Palestinian territory" (including most of the first page of your search). nableezy - 18:31, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
To editor Nableezy: You ask if the Gaza-Egypt boundary is an armistice line or a border. The 1949 armistice agreement did not define it as either, as the armistice line followed the Gaza Strip border around the north and east. The 1979 Israel-Egypt peace treaty says "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip." (A similar wording wrt the WB appears in the Israel-Jordan treaty.) So it is a border as far as Egypt and Israel are concerned, with allowance for future change of status. No Palestinian body was party to the Israel-Egypt treaty, but I don't think that either Hamas or PA claim bits of Sinai so it is a reasonable assumption (without an explicit source) that they also regard it as a border. Zero talk 02:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
I would be content with a first para
or similar. I think the Hamas governance sits better in the second para along with the way that came to be. Selfstudier ( talk) 14:45, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
https://m.maariv.co.il/news/military/Article-1056395 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:50FB:22DE:D663:44B9 ( talk) 08:29, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Any content or pictures we can add on Mandela's historic visit? Makeandtoss ( talk) 14:43, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Wh15tL3D09N: Please restore the siege quote, which is arguably the most widely reported on quote during this entire conflict; a quick google search shows it has been quoted 26,600 times [5]! You can't fight hate by censoring reality, only by changing reality you can fight hate. Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:54, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
@ SPECIFICO: Care to explain why you replaced information from a reliable secondary 2023 source that of the New York Times with a less reliable primary 2010 source by an Israeli website? Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
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Add "Gazan" to Demonyms section of the table summary. It is more widely used than "Gazawi," (which I don't think should be removed) including in the article itself, elsewhere on Wikipedia and in the media Madeline at Freedom Now ( talk) 16:19, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Skitash How do you say (unexplained change) and I mentioned (There are no others). There is no need to mention the word Arabs alongside the Palestinians. Sarah SchneiderCH ( talk) 11:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
Entry states "Gaza has one of the world's highest population densities" and the source linked ( https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/gaza-strip-map-density-israel-hamas-conflict/index.html) repeats this claim, but in the actual body of the article, it states "The Gaza Strip’s density is comparable to many major global cities, but whereas people in those areas have the option of leaving or expanding the suburb." The population density given in the article is 15371 per sq mile.
Whether we look at Wikipedia lists of density of city districts or cities as a whole. 15371/sq mile is nowhere near the top of lists ranking by density.
Just because we can link to an article that makes a claim does not mean that the claim is proven to the standards necessary here. While it is technically possible to define "one of the worlds' highest population densities" in a way that includes Gaza and dozens of more dense cities or areas, the categorization is not factually accurate on its face and is misleading, and should be removed. 170.202.122.107 ( talk) 22:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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In the section about the War of Iron Swords (“2023: Israel–Hamas war”) writes “By 13 November 2023, one out of every 200 people in Gaza were killed.” The source clearly states that the information is according the the Gaza’s Health Ministry which is unreliable. I suggest to remove this part as the numbers are most likely heavily exaggerated. Iron armour ( talk) 20:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
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Skitash (
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20:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Reliable sources have repeatedly found the MOH numbers to be accurate, and the Israelis have also said the numbers are accurate. So no, definitely not. nableezy - 21:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
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change "is a polity" to "is a polity in West Asia"" Bzik2324 ( talk) 20:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
"In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew its military forces from Gaza, dismantled its settlements, and implemented a temporary blockade of Gaza. The blockade became indefinite after the 2007 Hamas takeover, supported by Egypt through restrictions on its land border with Gaza" - How can it be an Israeli blockade, when about 20% of the Gazan border are with Egypt? It's inaccurate, and not neutral POV. Ehud Amir ( talk) 14:11, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
{{ping| DMH43}} The current wording implies that the strip existed before the Egyptian control, when in fact it was established as a result of the Egyptian control. The previous wording was more descriptive. Makeandtoss ( talk) 17:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Can someone provide a citation for the claim that the blockade was originally "temporary" and only made "indefinite after the 2007 Hamas takeover"?
DMH43 ( talk) 17:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
@ Makeandtoss and Alaexis: hi. I have added to the article a list of "Archaeological sites and historical buildings". I got 2 opposite reactions: Alaexis thanked me, and Makeandtoss erased the whole thing as irrelevant, without even having the courtesy of pinging me. I don't work for rewards such as thanks, but I consider it terribly destructive and not-to-be-done what M&T did: I don't fancy something, so I just erase it, w/o even giving a notice to the person who worked on it. I never thought someone might remove it, so I didn't have it on my watchlist, only Alaexis' thanks made me go back to it. But that's about basic human interaction and maybe less relevant to others.
In terms of the propagation of knowledge, which is the objective reason for having Wiki in the first place: it's utter nonsense to say that the archaeological and built heritage of a region "doesn't add value to the article".
The Gaza Strip, apart from being part of "the conflict" (TFC, guess what F stands for), is a geographical region with a long history and specific culture. How is that not of interest? Also, the Gaza Strip is again today, for better or worse, a de facto autonomous entity, with all that entails ("The Gaza Strip is a polity"). This has NOTHING to do with any political attempt to split the Palestinian territories or anything else: the Strip IS and works as a geographical and political entity with a specific location, history and present. And heritage IS part of that. Focusing only on TFC is nonsense, and non-encyclopedic to the max (more like journalism).
Maybe the form of a list disturbed our colleague. Why actually? To clarify, tangentially, why the topic of heritage matters a lot also for TFC: I put the list together after hearing a Palestinian-American architect, Dana Erakat, who spoke on BBC about the destruction of the Strip's historical heritage, and I tried to look up the sites she mentioned: nothing! The list can serve as a good starting point for adding info on those sites, and for adding others, of which I am sure there are more. EVERY region (polity!) deserves it, and every similar article actually HAS it. It's basic. So add, don't remove.
"Unsourced": A) Fundamentally wrong, as I started by listing what's in the "Category:Archaeological sites in the Gaza Strip", which I carefully placed in the "main" tag at the top; and for all the others, I've offered wikilinks and/or refs. All sites listed are wikilinked to existing articles, at least one per listed item. B) It's in the nature of any such first step that it can, and indeed should, be elaborated on and gradually additionally sourced. I haven't seen anywhere material deeply relevant to the topic being challenged because it isn't based in its entirety on one single original source. That's a non-starter.
So for this article to be more than a newsboard, and specifically in order to give the necessary background to newsworthy topics like Dana Erekat's list of possibly or probably destroyed sites (because that's what differentiates an encyclopedia from a newspaper collection), this info totally belongs in here.
I always fight for more info, of course relevant one, being allowed for. Presented systematically, so that it's easy to navigate through - the user finds what he needs, effortlessly leaves out what he doesn't, but might get curious when bumping into a heading he's not been looking for. That I see as being constructive and user-friendly. The opposite of being destructive and losing sight of Wiki's raison d'être.
This said: I'll put the list back in. Should someone still choose to remove it again, pls make sure you ping me and we can continue the discussion here - if there are more good arguments to be made. To be clear: I am not interested in edit-warring. Arminden ( talk) 23:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
the section copied here states "members of the ressitance", without clearing resistance to what and by whom they were declayred as ressitance.
196
See also: Israeli Military Governorate
In June 1967, during the Six-Day War, IDF captured Gaza. Under the then head of Israel's Southern Command Ariel Sharon, dozens of Palestinians, suspected of being members of the resistance, were executed without trial. 2A06:C701:4692:FB00:3841:C011:4D8E:26CE ( talk) 12:31, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Economy of Gaza City which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 02:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Reading the source, yes Rafah is technically the largest city in Gaza at this point in time. But over half it's population is displaced, does this really count as a permanent population? This could also mislead people into believing that Rafah has always been bigger than Gaza City, when the population has only increased because of the ongoing war. - 🇮🇪 Signed, Nintentoad125 👻 ( Talk to me! 🗣️) 22:07, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Wafflefrites it would be more accurate to refer to Sara Roy as affiliated with Harvard rather than IPS, I'm not aware of any affiliation she has with IPS. DMH223344 ( talk) 02:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
@ AnomieBOT, (@ Anomie) why did you remove the quote from Benvenisti without any explanation? DMH223344 ( talk) 16:33, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
I saw that `One source section` was added to the section "Israeli policies during the Israeli military occupation (1967 - mid-1990s)", the section does in fact reference multiple sources and authorities. What is expected to remove this flag? DMH223344 ( talk) 23:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Propose to rename the section title "Israeli policies during the Israeli military occupation (1967 - mid-1990s)" to: "Impact of Israeli Policies".
The reasons:
DMH223344 ( talk) 00:03, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
@ HudecEmil: Atlas source doesn't support the cited claim, please remove both. Makeandtoss ( talk) 13:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
This information is tainted with Israeli propaganda — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.141.85.217 ( talk) 14:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Nableezy I agree it is odd to call it a de facto sovereign state, but I do not know what other term is most accurate. Describing it as a "Palestinian enclave" with a hyperlink to an article about West Bank enclaves specifically is definitely not accurate, especially since the actual definition of an enclave does not include territories that border the ocean. I also think it should be mentioned that Hamas won the elections but Fatah refused to recognize the results, since that is the reason as to why Hamas only rules the Gaza strip and not the West Bank as well, and the PNA is already mentioned in the article, so additional clarification is necessary. Bill Williams 22:03, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
I agree bantustan is not the typical thing to call Gaza. I think enclave is often used, but not in the way that it is used in the article Palestinian enclaves, which is more about the disconnected areas within the West Bank, though Gaza is sometimes also treated as that. I do not think state, de facto or any other qualifier notwithstanding, is appropriate. The results on "palestinian territory" are skwewed by all the results that include it within the "Occupied Palestinian territory" (including most of the first page of your search). nableezy - 18:31, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
To editor Nableezy: You ask if the Gaza-Egypt boundary is an armistice line or a border. The 1949 armistice agreement did not define it as either, as the armistice line followed the Gaza Strip border around the north and east. The 1979 Israel-Egypt peace treaty says "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip." (A similar wording wrt the WB appears in the Israel-Jordan treaty.) So it is a border as far as Egypt and Israel are concerned, with allowance for future change of status. No Palestinian body was party to the Israel-Egypt treaty, but I don't think that either Hamas or PA claim bits of Sinai so it is a reasonable assumption (without an explicit source) that they also regard it as a border. Zero talk 02:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
I would be content with a first para
or similar. I think the Hamas governance sits better in the second para along with the way that came to be. Selfstudier ( talk) 14:45, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
https://m.maariv.co.il/news/military/Article-1056395 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:50FB:22DE:D663:44B9 ( talk) 08:29, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Any content or pictures we can add on Mandela's historic visit? Makeandtoss ( talk) 14:43, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Wh15tL3D09N: Please restore the siege quote, which is arguably the most widely reported on quote during this entire conflict; a quick google search shows it has been quoted 26,600 times [5]! You can't fight hate by censoring reality, only by changing reality you can fight hate. Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:54, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
@ SPECIFICO: Care to explain why you replaced information from a reliable secondary 2023 source that of the New York Times with a less reliable primary 2010 source by an Israeli website? Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Gaza Strip has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add "Gazan" to Demonyms section of the table summary. It is more widely used than "Gazawi," (which I don't think should be removed) including in the article itself, elsewhere on Wikipedia and in the media Madeline at Freedom Now ( talk) 16:19, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Skitash How do you say (unexplained change) and I mentioned (There are no others). There is no need to mention the word Arabs alongside the Palestinians. Sarah SchneiderCH ( talk) 11:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
Entry states "Gaza has one of the world's highest population densities" and the source linked ( https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/gaza-strip-map-density-israel-hamas-conflict/index.html) repeats this claim, but in the actual body of the article, it states "The Gaza Strip’s density is comparable to many major global cities, but whereas people in those areas have the option of leaving or expanding the suburb." The population density given in the article is 15371 per sq mile.
Whether we look at Wikipedia lists of density of city districts or cities as a whole. 15371/sq mile is nowhere near the top of lists ranking by density.
Just because we can link to an article that makes a claim does not mean that the claim is proven to the standards necessary here. While it is technically possible to define "one of the worlds' highest population densities" in a way that includes Gaza and dozens of more dense cities or areas, the categorization is not factually accurate on its face and is misleading, and should be removed. 170.202.122.107 ( talk) 22:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Gaza Strip has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section about the War of Iron Swords (“2023: Israel–Hamas war”) writes “By 13 November 2023, one out of every 200 people in Gaza were killed.” The source clearly states that the information is according the the Gaza’s Health Ministry which is unreliable. I suggest to remove this part as the numbers are most likely heavily exaggerated. Iron armour ( talk) 20:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
{{
Edit extended-protected}}
template.
Skitash (
talk)
20:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Reliable sources have repeatedly found the MOH numbers to be accurate, and the Israelis have also said the numbers are accurate. So no, definitely not. nableezy - 21:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Gaza Strip has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change "is a polity" to "is a polity in West Asia"" Bzik2324 ( talk) 20:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
"In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew its military forces from Gaza, dismantled its settlements, and implemented a temporary blockade of Gaza. The blockade became indefinite after the 2007 Hamas takeover, supported by Egypt through restrictions on its land border with Gaza" - How can it be an Israeli blockade, when about 20% of the Gazan border are with Egypt? It's inaccurate, and not neutral POV. Ehud Amir ( talk) 14:11, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
{{ping| DMH43}} The current wording implies that the strip existed before the Egyptian control, when in fact it was established as a result of the Egyptian control. The previous wording was more descriptive. Makeandtoss ( talk) 17:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Can someone provide a citation for the claim that the blockade was originally "temporary" and only made "indefinite after the 2007 Hamas takeover"?
DMH43 ( talk) 17:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
@ Makeandtoss and Alaexis: hi. I have added to the article a list of "Archaeological sites and historical buildings". I got 2 opposite reactions: Alaexis thanked me, and Makeandtoss erased the whole thing as irrelevant, without even having the courtesy of pinging me. I don't work for rewards such as thanks, but I consider it terribly destructive and not-to-be-done what M&T did: I don't fancy something, so I just erase it, w/o even giving a notice to the person who worked on it. I never thought someone might remove it, so I didn't have it on my watchlist, only Alaexis' thanks made me go back to it. But that's about basic human interaction and maybe less relevant to others.
In terms of the propagation of knowledge, which is the objective reason for having Wiki in the first place: it's utter nonsense to say that the archaeological and built heritage of a region "doesn't add value to the article".
The Gaza Strip, apart from being part of "the conflict" (TFC, guess what F stands for), is a geographical region with a long history and specific culture. How is that not of interest? Also, the Gaza Strip is again today, for better or worse, a de facto autonomous entity, with all that entails ("The Gaza Strip is a polity"). This has NOTHING to do with any political attempt to split the Palestinian territories or anything else: the Strip IS and works as a geographical and political entity with a specific location, history and present. And heritage IS part of that. Focusing only on TFC is nonsense, and non-encyclopedic to the max (more like journalism).
Maybe the form of a list disturbed our colleague. Why actually? To clarify, tangentially, why the topic of heritage matters a lot also for TFC: I put the list together after hearing a Palestinian-American architect, Dana Erakat, who spoke on BBC about the destruction of the Strip's historical heritage, and I tried to look up the sites she mentioned: nothing! The list can serve as a good starting point for adding info on those sites, and for adding others, of which I am sure there are more. EVERY region (polity!) deserves it, and every similar article actually HAS it. It's basic. So add, don't remove.
"Unsourced": A) Fundamentally wrong, as I started by listing what's in the "Category:Archaeological sites in the Gaza Strip", which I carefully placed in the "main" tag at the top; and for all the others, I've offered wikilinks and/or refs. All sites listed are wikilinked to existing articles, at least one per listed item. B) It's in the nature of any such first step that it can, and indeed should, be elaborated on and gradually additionally sourced. I haven't seen anywhere material deeply relevant to the topic being challenged because it isn't based in its entirety on one single original source. That's a non-starter.
So for this article to be more than a newsboard, and specifically in order to give the necessary background to newsworthy topics like Dana Erekat's list of possibly or probably destroyed sites (because that's what differentiates an encyclopedia from a newspaper collection), this info totally belongs in here.
I always fight for more info, of course relevant one, being allowed for. Presented systematically, so that it's easy to navigate through - the user finds what he needs, effortlessly leaves out what he doesn't, but might get curious when bumping into a heading he's not been looking for. That I see as being constructive and user-friendly. The opposite of being destructive and losing sight of Wiki's raison d'être.
This said: I'll put the list back in. Should someone still choose to remove it again, pls make sure you ping me and we can continue the discussion here - if there are more good arguments to be made. To be clear: I am not interested in edit-warring. Arminden ( talk) 23:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
the section copied here states "members of the ressitance", without clearing resistance to what and by whom they were declayred as ressitance.
196
See also: Israeli Military Governorate
In June 1967, during the Six-Day War, IDF captured Gaza. Under the then head of Israel's Southern Command Ariel Sharon, dozens of Palestinians, suspected of being members of the resistance, were executed without trial. 2A06:C701:4692:FB00:3841:C011:4D8E:26CE ( talk) 12:31, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Economy of Gaza City which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 02:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Reading the source, yes Rafah is technically the largest city in Gaza at this point in time. But over half it's population is displaced, does this really count as a permanent population? This could also mislead people into believing that Rafah has always been bigger than Gaza City, when the population has only increased because of the ongoing war. - 🇮🇪 Signed, Nintentoad125 👻 ( Talk to me! 🗣️) 22:07, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Wafflefrites it would be more accurate to refer to Sara Roy as affiliated with Harvard rather than IPS, I'm not aware of any affiliation she has with IPS. DMH223344 ( talk) 02:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
@ AnomieBOT, (@ Anomie) why did you remove the quote from Benvenisti without any explanation? DMH223344 ( talk) 16:33, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
I saw that `One source section` was added to the section "Israeli policies during the Israeli military occupation (1967 - mid-1990s)", the section does in fact reference multiple sources and authorities. What is expected to remove this flag? DMH223344 ( talk) 23:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Propose to rename the section title "Israeli policies during the Israeli military occupation (1967 - mid-1990s)" to: "Impact of Israeli Policies".
The reasons:
DMH223344 ( talk) 00:03, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
@ HudecEmil: Atlas source doesn't support the cited claim, please remove both. Makeandtoss ( talk) 13:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)