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We should have a section speaking about the killings of Armenians during the Nargono-Karabakh war causing the depletion of the Armenian population which was at least 15% of the population and used to be be 44% around the turn of the 20th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.165.152 ( talk) 22:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Ganje was a city in the persian empire until its capture by the russians in the 19th century. For Azeri etnicity, please refer to the appropriate article. It is important to note that the present state of azerbaijan is a very new phenomenon and no such state has ever existed before 20th century.
Please, note that Ganja is a historical Azerbaijani city. Its inhabitants all the time have been Azerbaijanis or Albanians, ancestors of Azerbaijanis. Please, don't try to credit Ganja to persians. I have no relations to persiona. Azerbaijanis and persians are different civilizations, different cultures, different ethnicities, different language and etc. No common feature other than being neighbors. -- 68.49.90.60 18:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Ganja appears closer to the Persian spelling and Ganca seems to be closer to the Azeri spelling. The United Nations Group of Expects on Geographical Names issued a working paper (WP 82) in 2000 entitled Classification of the Populated Localities On 1/600,000 Scale Map of the Azerbaijan Republic but they acknowledged that the conversion of the Azeri from cyrillic to roman had not been fully accomodated. The UN report still used Ganja. Fallingrain.com uses Ganca. signed: Bejnar 05:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The coat of arms used in the article is not being used since 1918 and I think it would be wiser to move it to the history section rather than display it as the emblem of the city. I have an image of the modern emblem adopted on January 21, 2003. I am still trying to figure out how to place it and what to do with licence. Does it count as a fair use if it is being used anywhere in the city?? Gancali 9:41, 4 November 2006(UTC)
The city was founded by Armenians in the early Middle Ages, has Armenian name, and from early times was home to a large Armenian community that was exiled in 1989. Gandzak gave Armenians many important figures of science, literature, arts and religion- see list. Zurbagan 07:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I added some things back that were referenced, [3] Artaxiad 03:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The article needs sources which show that it was an important city of Caucasus Albania (the Iranica article mentions Aran, Iran, Atabegs, etc... but not C.A) and another source which mentions the Turkic/Kurdish origin theory of the etymology (Iranica says that Ganja is from the Persian language, says nothing of Turkic or Kurdish.). Azerbaijani 04:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Kurdish etymology based on word "genc" is impossible, as it's a Turkic word, that's why Kurdish cannot be put there, and is covered by the Persian (or actually, it should state Pahlavi, not Persian). What reference is needed for the word genc? I can scan an Azerbaijani-English dictionary's page, if needed, but is that really necessary? Meanwhile, if the city was founded in 5th century, then obviously it was in Caucasian Albania, which existed in its full form (Naxcivan+Arran+Shirvan+Mughan+Daghestan) until 705 AD, and after that, until 10th century, was re-established a few times in what is known as Arran region (i.e., only between Kura and Araxes rivers). Hence, no citation is needed for that, it's automatically covered. -- AdilBaguirov 05:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism by some drug-lovers was reverted, and restored the original wording from John F. Baddeley and Caucasian Albanian historian Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) about Ganja. Additionally, Mxitar Gosh and Kirakos Gandzaketsi were Albanian, and their books were about Albania and written in Caucasian Albania (Arran). -- adil 21:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Interesting move by Adil. He replaces Persian and replaces it with Pahlavi, which isnt incorrect, however, neither was Persian, as Pahlavi was Middle Persian and was referred to as Parsik. The funniest part was when he put in place "middle Iranian" rather than putting in "middle Persian". I dont know what this user has against Persians, but he has expressed his feelings many times...I'll let others be the judge. Its also funny how he calls Encyclopaedia Iranica a "pan Persian" source...Lastly, he removes the dispute tag...Very interesting revert Atabek... Azerbaijani 01:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I wonder, Pejman47, what acedmic sources you are refering to in your claims-- Dacy69 19:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. These are the same users that claim every single source that contradicts them "not scholarly or not neutral" and yet when it comes to their sources, they use whatever they want! There is no "Turkic theory" for the name Ganja, that is pure historical fiction. That is why you cannot find one scholarly source that also supports this theory! Iranica says the name is derived from Persian, you cannot argue with Iranica when you do not have a scholarly third party source.
Pahlavi is middle Persian, read Britannica. This is getting real tiring.
Here is the Wikipedia article on Pahlavi: [4]
Middle Persian or Pahlavi is the Iranian language spoken during Sassanian times.
Here is the Britannica article on Pahlavi: [5]
Middle Persian, the major form of which is called Pahlavi, was the official language of the Sasanians (AD 224–651). The most important of the Middle Persian inscriptions is that of Shapur I (d. AD 272), which has parallel versions in Parthian and Greek. Middle Persian was also the language of the Manichaean and Zoroastrian books written during the 3rd to the 10th century AD.
Here is what Iranica says about the name Ganja: [6]
The Persian name Ganja/Ganza (<ganj "treasure, treasury"; see MacKenzie, p. 35) points, however, to there having existed a much older, pre-Islamic town there.
Adil and Atabek, its really tiring having to deal with these POV edits and OR. Wikipedia has policies against these, and you two are trying to argue against Britannica and Iranica?
If you want, I can bring up literraly hundreds of Iranian sources for a lot of claims, would you take those out now that you have shown your double standard? This is ridiculous Azerbaijani 20:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
user Azerbaijani, what is your problem man? I've told you already -- the Wikipedia's own page on Pahlavi language [7] says: "Pahlavi or Pahlevi denotes a particular and exclusively written form of various Middle Iranian languages." It is more correct to denote Pahlavi as Middle Iranian as it's shared by all Iranian people, not just Persians, and because primary Pahlavi speakers, Parthians, were different from Persians, who had their own language at the same time. So what is your complaint about? Meanwhile, nobody disputes the Iranica's take on Ganja, and of course, everyone (at least the Azerbaijani users) recognize that "ganj" is a Pahlavi word. As such, why don't you explain that to the Armenian users, so that they understand that a similar word in Armenian language, itself an Indo-European language, is from Pahlavi, and hence talking about Armenian origin of the word (and worse, the city) is groundless. -- adil 07:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I need to make some clarifications although since this seems to be an armenian/azerbaijani issue as well, I am not going to edit after arbcomm is over but I have made these comments assuming good faith from users to make the right edits. About the name, Ganja is Persian. Ganjak is the Middle Persian or Pahlavi version. Note the firt two links Adil brought: which are academic: [ [15]]: The dominant language of this stage was initially Parthian (Pahlawanig)and later Middle Persian, commonly known as "Pahlavi". And also the Britannica link Adil mentioned: e Persian is known in three forms, not entirely homogeneous—inscriptional Middle Persian, Pahlavi (often more precisely called Book Pahlavi), and Manichaean Middle Persian. Middle Persian belongs to the period 300 BC to AD 950 and was, like Old Persian, the language of southwestern Iran.. [16]. The first article was written by someone I know through e-mail and he is a history student (Iranian history) in UCLA and he reads Pahlavi, Avesta, Parthian, Soghdian, Old Persian, Latin, Greek, English, German... Very bright fellow. There is of course a group of scripts collectively called Pahlavi scripts. Pahlavi originaly was a term that denoted Parthians in the ancient era and then in the Islamic era Pahla was the area (Azerbaijan,Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan..) but scholars and Zoroastrians and Persian literature have used Pahlavi for Middle Persian and Parthian (which is a very similar language) for Parthian. Over all, the words Parth,Pars,Pashtu, Pahlaw,Persian, Parthav (modern Bard'a) and the word Pahlavan all trace back to Old Persian/Avesta Persu (Morgenstein a scholar in Pashto has a good article on this). But to make a long story short, Iranica article should be quoted directly and the Iranica article by Boseworth references Mackenzie's Pahlavi dictionary. Mackenzie's Pahlavi dictionary is a dictionary of Middle Persian. Thus Ganjak is Pahlavi(Middle Persian) but Ganja/Ganjah is modern Persian. Lots of words in Pahlavi have lost their last k to h in modern Persian. One example is Bandak in Pahlavi which is now Banda (which I believe has entered Turkish as bende). Now I am going to make a comment on Turkish/Armenian origin.
Besides the fact that I have not seen it so far in any western academicaly professional (written by a major Professor of the area) manuscripts, the theory of Turkic etymology for such a word is faulty since etymology has to be sought for Ganjak and not Ganja, since Ganjak is the more archaic form. The Ganja media center site contains OR research not backed by third party sources and so it should be removed by any decent users. For example, the sentences are poorly formed even and not on par with an academic site: A young scientist, Farrux Ahmadov who also had a PHD in History begun filling those “white sponts” in Ganja’s history with his researches.[ [17]]. What is white sponts? Also he says: We believe that, in ancient times the city was not called ‘Gəncə’ but ‘Qança’! And then sites İbn Xordadbek where-as the name is Ibn Xordadbeh and not Xordadbek. Note it does not connect to the word young anyways. Also note this sentence from the same link: According to the information given by Herodot, “Kirus crosses the Araz River and gets closer to Kur River. Then he moves toward a narrow valley (remember the Dar valley village in the Southern Ganja region- F.A.). The queen Tomris drags the multinumbered troops of Kiri into a trap and destroys them, and Kiri gets killed”.. Actually Herodotus mentions araxes which in his book denotes the Oxus. [18] [19] [20].I And futhermore Xenophon mentions natural death for Cyrus and I believe so does Ctesias, so over all there is some legendary material here which should not be used for etymology. The science of etymology is not easy but it has some general rules.
I am hoping based on the good faith of users, they will make the necessary corrections or or provide a neutral third party western source for any claim. As per the term being Armenian, Armenian language specially classical has a lot of Pahlavi/Parthian words words and one of them is Ganjak, but as described above, Ganjah is a Persian word where-as Ganjak is a Pahlavi (Middle Persian) word which also Armenian borrowed from Persian. Overall many etymologies in the region have Persian names: Azerbaijan, Darband, Ganja..Also one should add Shaddadid dynasty to the list as well since it was their capital as well. I'll make the edits with this matter of etymology after arbcomm, unless well intentioned users do so before. -- alidoostzadeh 23:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I can remove Pahlavi/Persian because it has already been discussed in the beginning. whether the word Gandz became a loan-word in ancient Armenian is your OR; with the same ease I can say the opposite - the original term was Gandz, and then it was translated into Persian. On Kirakos: stop your POV amd OR. In the Western historiography it is well documented that his work is called "Patmutiun Hayots" - hence the sources I had added. Sumgait.info - again, that is your OR and POV; it is just an article and should stay there asa link and readers will decide as to the nature of that website if they would want to go beyond the article into exploring the site. I can likewise suggest that Azerb. websites you included are racist. Leave this to the audience Pulu-Pughi 13:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
گویند که سلطان مهین بر در گنجه ست در گنجه کنون بین که ز بغداد فزون تر است خاقانی They say the exalted Sultan is at the door of Ganja Look at the pearl of Ganja as its more majestic than (the whole city of) Baghdad -- alidoostzadeh 22:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't bother, I found it in Russian edition of Kalankatuatsi’s book:
Спустя еще два года пришел хазр патгос, человек беспощадный и свирепый, но и сдох [здесь] в том же году. Но пришел сын его и покорил страну мечом, предал огню множество церквей, жителей взял в полон и ушел в Багдад. Затем он вновь пришел оттуда по царскому повелению и на средства казны построил в гаваре Аршакашен город Гандзак в двести девяносто пятом году [армянского летосчисления]. [26]
As I expected, the sock seriously distorted the source. It actually says that son of certain Khazr Patgos founded the city in the canton of Arshakashen. Here’s the quote from famous Russian scholar Vladimir Minorsky, who refers to the same text:
В 245/859 году [Мухаммад] построил город Джанза (Ганджа) в области (кура) Арран (Здесь, по-видимому, начинаются прямые цитаты из Т.-Б.). Причина была следующая: когда он находился в окрестностях Джубанта [47] (Хунанта?) (Возможно, Хунан, который находился на полдороге между Тифлисом и Ганджой. Согласно Истахри (стр. 189), он стоял на высоком холме и назывался также Кал'ат ат-тураб. Менее вероятно чтение Джавах.), где было три холма, ему приснилось в течение трех ночей подряд, что в одном из них зарыт клад, и (он слышал голос, который говорил ему): “Поднимись и останови там своего коня и, где конь ударит ногой, прикажи копать; затем возьми то, что найдешь там, и при помощи (находки) построй город и назови его Джанза [сокровищница]”. Он так и поступил и нашел три больших котла (мараджил): один был наполнен динарами, а два других — дирхемами. На эти деньги он построил город Джанза, а затем вернулся (А, л. 1052а) в Багдад, где сообщил халифу о кладе и о городе. Халиф сказал: “Города я не хочу, но найденные деньги отдай мне”. Мухаммад обязался вернуть деньги, но с условием, что халиф сделает наследным (владением) его и его детей город вместе с хорошо известными поместьями (дийа), которые и до сих пор называются Халидийат. Халиф утвердил дар, и Мухаммад вернулся в Джанзу. Он сложил с себя правление в Армении и удовольствовался городом Джанзой и доходом с поместий. [27]
Дата основания Джанзы (Ганджи) (245г.х./859), по-видимому, больше нигде не встречается (Более поздний источник — Нузхат ал-кулуб, написанный в 740г.х./1340 (GMS, стр. 91), относит основание Ганджи к 39г.х./659. Как указывает иранское название Ганза (Ганджа) ('сокровищница'), она, должно быть, существовала в доисламские времена. Провинция, где она лежит, называлась по-армянски Шакашен (греч. Сакасене) и даже во времена Александра славилась своим богатством (см. Адонц, Армения, СПб., 1908, стр. 421; Marquart, Skizzen, Wien, 1908, стр. 60. См. также хорошую популярную историю Ганджи, составленную М. М. Альтманом, Баку, 1949, стр. 15)), но историк Албании (Аррана) Моисей Каганкатваци (III, гл. 20, русск. пер. Патканяна, стр. 270) подтверждает, что “Гандзак в районе Аршакашена” был основан сыном жестокого Хазра патгос. Патгос, очевидно, стоит вместо патгоспан (перс, 'генерал-губернатор', 'вице король'), а в слове Хазр Маркварт (cм. Marquart, Streifzuge, стр. 402) справедливо видит искаженное имя Халид. Следовательно, армяне также приписывают основание Ганджи сыну Халида (Мухаммаду). Моисей добавляет, что Мухаммад построил Гандзак во время второго периода его правления Арменией, после чего он занял Сюник, напал на [племя] Балк и дошел до Алахечка. С этого момента история династии Йазидидов меняет свой характер: члены ее, назначавшиеся ранее на пост генерал-губернатора из Багдада, теперь становятся наследственными вассалами в своих ленных владениях. Как таковые они остаются вне поля зрения общих историков халифата. По этой причине значение Т.-Б. возрастает, так как это сочинение продолжает давать множество неизвестных фактов в связной форме. Легендой о Джанзе начинается ряд отрывков из Т.-Б., которые Мюнеджжим-баши имел в своем распоряжении. [28]
And here’s the same passage from Bosworth:
The post-Mongol historian Hamd-Allah Mostawfi says that the Arab town of Ganja was founded in 39/659-60 (i.e., at the time of the first Arab incursions into eastern Transcaucasia) but gives no details (Nozhat al-qolub, p. 91, tr. p. 93). A passage of the anonymous Tarik Bab al-abwab (extant in the Ottoman historian Monajjem-bashi's Jame al-dowal) states that Ganja was founded in 245/859-60 by Mohammad b. Kaled b. Yazid b. Mazyad, of the family of Yazidi governors in Sharvan, who was governor of Azerbaijan, Arran, and Armenia for the caliph al-Motawakkel, and so-called because of a treasure unearthed there, obviously a piece of folk etymology (see below). Mohammad resided there in his castle (qasr), presumably until his death in 247/861, making it the capital of Arran (Minorsky, 1958, tr. pp. 25-26, comm. pp. 57-58; cf. idem, 1953, pp. 5-6). Mohammad b. Kaled's role as founder (or rather, as re-founder, see below) of Ganja is confirmed by the Armenian historian Movses Dasxuranci, where he says that the son of Xazr (for Xald, as explained by Marquart, p. 462) Patgos built Ganjak in the canton of Arshakashen, with the date given in one manuscript as Armenian era 295/846-47 (bk. 3, ch. 20, tr. Dowsett, p. 218). The Persian name Ganja/Ganza (<ganj "treasure, treasury"; see MacKenzie, p. 35) points, however, to there having existed a much older, pre-Islamic town there. [29]
As you can see, foundation of the city has nothing to do with Armenians. The city was founded by Arabs in Arshakashen, which was one of the provinces of Caucasian Albania. Grandmaster 11:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Ganja can have more than one meaning, but its also the name of this city, so please dont vandalize the article again anon. Azerbaijani 13:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I hope you wanted to say - "don't vandalize again"-- Dacy69 15:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the Persian translation is there because Ganja in the first place is a Persian name. I reinserted it. Hajji Piruz 16:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I added the Historic Armenian community section back. I take full responsibility for the text as if I wrote it myself. There really is no good reason to exclude this information from this article. -- VartanM 01:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Also,I followed Grandmasters advice and requested permanent semi-protection. Which was declined, I guess we gonna have to go with my suggestion and rename the article to Gandzak. That would defiantly end all "ganja" related vandalism. But it might attract some Armenian pirates looking for gandz :) -- VartanM 01:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, I dispute pretty much all of original research which you put in without proper reference. I will add appropriate fact tags at the end of each sentence, which is not sourced, and you're welcome to bring those references to discussion. Atabek 22:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, why would someone not add sections about strong Azerbaijani communities that for centuries existed in almost every major city of the modern-day Armenia to each relevant article? It is really irrelevant to see a whole big section about an Armenian minority population of an Azerbaijani city. As usual, it is an obvious attempt to indirectly advance baseless Armenian territorial claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.241.215 ( talk) 23:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, who are these people Karo Halabyan and Askanaz Mravyan to be mentioned in the main body of the article? These personalities were so insignificant that they do not merit to be mentioned there. Just because they each have a small entry at the Soviet Encyclopedia doesn't mean they were so important. At most, you can move them to the famous people list. I am sure that even 99.999% of Armenians have never heard about this people. There have been hundreds of other people (mostly non-Armenians) hailing from Ganja who have been or are more prominent than those Armenians who are mentioned. Just goes to show that some people wish to show as many Armenian names as possible in this article, to advance goals which I mentioned above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.241.215 ( talk) 23:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
VartanM, please, provide proper source to Soviet census, the one you cited is not appropriate, as it has no page number, nor ISBN, nor document title or issue number. Atabek 22:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Atabek, is there any need? Anyways the Brockauz and Efron encycl. prove that words! Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, these sources are going to prove that Armenian name Ganzdak exists. Do you really need a source asking Ganja was known as Gandzak among Armenians? [30] [31] you can open any Armenian source! And it was known as Gandzak among Armenians since middle ages (Kirakos Gandzaketsi- Kirakos of Gandzak), or for example see the "Chronics" by Smbat Sparapet (XII century) : "he gave the Armenian city Gandzak to his junior brother Melek" (also see the comment: "Gandzak - modern Kirovabad, Azerbaijani SSR") [32] Or are you going to prove that the Gandzak name is known not only among Armenians (if yes, Im glad, the sources are asking the same thing)? Sorry but some days ago you denyed even the fact of existence of Gandzak name... Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
But Albania was also a region in Armenian Kingdom, so its never means the Gandzak name is not Armenian (if other nations also used it, Im glad, but its fact that Armenians too). Anyways if you believe its not only an Armenian name, than whats the problem to put it in the description, near the Turkish one? Otherwise we need to prove here even the existence of that name. Andranikpasha 19:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Really, Grandmaster, I see sources are asking different things, its really unclear. But as I know anyways he was born in Elizavetpol and taken to Chardakhlu after some days (its why the most reliable Soviet source marks Elizavetpol, not Chardakhlu)... Anyways we can make a consensus! Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Parishan: the term "Azeris" can be applied only to the period from 1920 onward, whereas here we talk about the entire history of the city. There were no "Azeris" in the 19th century and before. Verjakette 13:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
No, the passage refers to the entire history of the city: that's why there are names of medieval Armenian figures like Gosh. I do not see any connection between what Movses of K. said and the argument about the "Azeris." the city had Arabs, Persians and even Kurds as residents. Sheddadi rulers of the city were in fact Kurds. Verjakette 14:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Verjakette, Mkhitar Gosh was not an Armenian but Albanian figure. You may want to refer to the works of CJF Dowsett for further information. In future, please, obtain sources for the material you add in this article. So far your contributions are not cited and appear to be original research. Thanks. Atabek 14:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Atabek, if you remember, I asked and sourced once during a arbitration that Gosh was an Armenian (even there werent a discuss on them). Must I repeat myself everywhere with the same reliable sources asking Gosh was an Armenian monk? Andranikpasha 18:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Haha. I just saw Atabek saying Mkhitar Gosh was not Armenian.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a good book on ethnic nationalism that has a chapter on Karabakh conflict. It discusses the formation of Azerbaijani people in the 1930s and Azerbaijani nationalist myths about their history. See: Stuart J. Kaufman. Modern Hatreds: The Symbolic Politics of Ethnic War. Cornell University Press (June 2001). ISBN-10: 0801487366. pages 50-65. I also noticed that Grandmaster and his friends have succeeded in suppressing a balanced narrative in the article Caucasian Albania; as a result, this article has very little if anything about the influence of Armenian culture and identity in Caucasian Albania - despite the almost complete absence of evidence that any "Caucasian Albanian" culture or ethnic identity ever existed. How can we keep this POV out of Wikipedia? Verjakette 22:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way, Kaufman's chapter about Azerbaijani nationalism is available online from Google Books. Atabek's point of view reflects Azerbaijani nationalist doctrine, and thus is a POV. Verjakette 23:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it is irrelevant because Caucasian Albania was a country dominated by Armenian culture and civilization imported from Armenian provinces of Artsakh and Utik. It's alphabet, created by no other than Mashtots, have never been in extensive use because it became redundant. Armenians assimilated non-Armenian "Albanians" by 387 AD (not a big surprise given that the latter were so disorganized, diverse, and, likely, too few). Very little - if anything - "Caucasian Albanian" (ethnically) is documented after it received Christian baptism from Armenians. By 387, Caucasian Albania became just another Armenian kingdom (there have always been more than one), and that is what Movses Kaghankatvatsi documented in his work. He never calls himself or others in his work "Albanians" but "easterners." Movses Khorenatsi writes in the 5th century (and that is an important quote) that "Armenian is not spoken east of Kura" (i.e. spoken west of Kura). Ganca was built on Armenian-dominated soil - that is the point, by Arabs, and was ruled later by a Kurdish dynasty, and then the Seljuks came. But still, Armenians made up at least one-third of its population. Verjakette 16:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
No one is going to take away from Azerbaijanis what is rightfully their; if I were you I would concentrate on the Sheddadi dynasty - they started as Arabized Kurds but were Turkified by Seljuk Turks. Ganca was an important Muslim city after all. There is a lot to write about; leave alone the un-winnable dispute over "Caucasian Albanians." Verjakette 16:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
These passages show how confused are the authors whom you mentioned (not surprising - they are foreigners, saying something as strange as "in Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic." ?????). In the city of Berdaa the predominant language could have been non-Armenian (population in Artsakh and Utik could have been mixed, as argued by R.Hewsen), but it could have been a dialect of Armenian as well (for example, modern Karabakhi dialect is very, very hard to understand; it has twice (!) the number of vowels and some weird consonants - Russian Щ - compared with literary Armenian). That is why some researchers argue that the Albanian alphabet invented by Mashtots (if it existed at all) is simply a separate alphabet for the Armenian dialect of Artsakh and Utik. We simply do not know. Serbian and Bulgarian are mutually-intelligible but are considered as different languages nonetheless, the same is true about Azerbaijani and Turkish. Yesai Nchetsi writes that in the Middle Ages there were several Armenian languages. Any conclusion here original research by default - the entire "Albanian" stuff is complicated and incomplete. And what we should do - expose controversies that cause things not to add up. Verjakette 15:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
You are engaging in original research. The Arabic sources say that people of Arran and its capital Barda spoke their own Arranian language, and that is a verifiable fact. The rest are just your personal assumptions. A scholarly interpretation is that the language mentioned by Arabic sources was Albanian, and not some dialect of Armenian. See this quote from the article about Arran by C. E. Bosworth in encyclopedia Iranica:
Strabo 9.4, cites Theophanes of Mytilene that Albania had at least 26 different languages or dialects, and the distinctive Albanian speech persisted into early Islamic times, since Armenian and Islamic sources alike stigmatize the tongue as cacophonous and barbarous, with Estakhri, p. 192, Ebn Hawqal, p. 349, tr. Kramers-Wiet, p. 342, and Moqaddasi, p. 378, recording that al-Raniya was still spoken in the capital Barda’a or Bardaa in their time (4th/10th century). [38] Grandmaster 08:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster: I do not think people disagree with that: as you said - people of Arran and its capital Barda may have spoken their own Arranian language, and Albanian speech could have persisted into early Islamic times. That may be true. But this is not a hard fact. Your claim that it is a hard fact is a POV and original research. This is a hypothesis, and it should be categorized as such clearly. In contrast, the fact is that the Arranian "language" has been dead since early Islamic times, and only a handful of artifacts of Albanian script were discovered (and if those artifacts are indeed genuine documents and not forgeries, scholars cannot decipher those texts, as argued by VartanM). Against this flimsy evidence of non-Armenian life in Caucasian Albania there is a comparatively larger body of evidence about a near-complete assimilation of C.Albanian elites and commonfolk into Armenians shortly after Armenians turned them into Christians. Everything in Movses Kaghankatvatsi's texts is Armenian: first names of persons, toponyms, extensive discussion and identification with Armenians epical ancestors and saints, invention of "Albanian" script by Mashtots, etc. Modern Armenians bear "Albanian" names after all (Vachagan, Aghvan, Vache, etc.). That is a fact. My advise - give up this fight, or show more flexibility. Verjakette 14:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
...however, quotations from Arabic sources are interesting and useful; thanks for digging them up. Verjakette 22:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed Kaufman references, as its claim was simply ridiculous. How could Azerbaijanis/Azeris be named since 1930s, when the sovereign nation of Azerbaijan was established in 1918, moreover, Azerbaijan as historical name was known for ages. Atabek ( talk) 08:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I reverted some unexpl. deletions of sourced info. Andranikpasha ( talk) 16:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I deleted some of the information about Ganja, because all of the references indicated are subjective and reflect only the position of the Armenian side. The history of Ganja is described based solely on the opinion of the Armeninan historians instead of facts. Wikipedia is a place where one can obtain facts not opinions. Therefore, I suggest that the information based on the views of historians will be removed. Ganjali. February 15, 2008.
uber Engrish on that one... It made me laugh. But I'm high. So yeah. Anyway, somebody might want to clean that up... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.175.226.27 ( talk) 18:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah it does need a clean up, not just the wording but the facts as well. Can anyone take a look? Also, I wonder how many people other came to this page just because of it's name lol Elcaballooscuro ( talk) 15:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I disapprove of this move, which was done without discussion. No disambiguation page is needed for only 2 definitions (per WP:MOS). This article should be moved back to Ganja, but as far as I know that can only be done by an administrator. — jacobolus (t) 18:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The move to Ganja, Azerbaijan seems a good outcome. I've delisted this page from the WP:RM backlog, I think the proposal listed there is now obsolete. Andrewa ( talk) 01:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move, but move Ganja (disambiguation) to Ganja. JPG-GR ( talk) 02:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Ganja, Azerbaijan → Ganja — See discussion above — Andrewa ( talk) 15:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.There is some work done on a google search on the disambig talk page...I'll copy it below.. Narson ( talk) 22:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
From survey above: Ganja as cannabis is a (slang!) dictionary definition. Wikipedia:naming conventions do not distinguish slang from everyday usage. Andrewa ( talk) 03:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed a claim that the city of Ganja was part of the Kingdom of Armenia. It is logically impossible, as the city was founded in the 9th century A.D., and the Kingdom of Armenia stopped existing in the 4th century A.D. The following was used as a source for the claim:
Cameron, Averil; Bryan Ward-Perkins, Michael Whitby (April 16, 2001). The Cambridge Ancient History Volume 14: Late Antiquity: Empire and Successors, AD 425-600. Cambridge University Press, p. 674. ISBN 0521325919.
I would like to see the precise quote from the above source, as I highly doubt that this quote is accurate. Such authoritative sources as Minorsky or Iranica never mention Ganja as part of Armenia, since it is impossible because of timing. Grandmaster ( talk) 05:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Grandmaster, you said that the region was called Arran in Arabic and Persian. I reverted this because as we know Arran was used in Persian but also by the local moslem people of that area. We do not have other namings for this region. However the name in Arabic is not Arran but Al-Ran, in Georgian it was Ran-i and the Armenian Aghvank refers to an earlier period. It is known that Aghvank is derived from Alban but it is only probable and not sure that Aran or Arran is also derived from Alban. In any case Albania refers to an earlier stage of the regional history than Arran.-- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 13:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I think Noeros has a good point. It is not a standard practice to create sections on historic ethnic communities. In that case we need such sections in every region related article, such as Yerevan, for example. Grandmaster ( talk) 07:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Yefrem khan was not born in the city of Ganja, to which this article is dedicated. He was born in some village in Shamkir district. -- Grandmaster ( talk) 13:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I readded Persian name based on the fact that the Russian name is there. Plus this is an Encyclopedia and if a name has Persian root, then it should be mentioned regardless of the political status of its terrtiory as the primary goal is to have an Encyclopedia. The Persian name is significant for many Caucasian toponyms as many ancient texts have used it. It is at least as significant as the Russian script. The Persian name of Ganja is attested at least from 1000 years ago(for example Qatran Tabrizi mentions Ganja) and many other texts mention it. It was there also before and was removed. Note this is not related to Babak/GM's edit about Azeri script. On the particular Azeri script to use, I am not going to get involved. But articles with regards to Iranian Azerbaijan should use Perso-Arabic script as the Azeri language of Iran has its own ISO code. Those with the republic of Azerbaijan can use whatever script they wish. Sometimes we even have the Azerbaijani-Turkish name in articles in an era when the language did not exist and I was asked to remove it in a particular article and I said the issue is no big deal (for example during the era of 12th century A.D. there was no latin script and Azerbaijani Turkish had not formed yet as a distinct Oghuz-based language). I think in general since there is no wiki-guidelines (as far as I know), with regards to names, any name that has a certain or probable Persian etymology, or has been used frequently in the 1000+ years of classical "modern Persian" literature is valid for the intro. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 06:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment on the Azeri Alphabet and Persian language usage. I have been seeing lots of back & forth reverts.
1) Iranian Azerbaijani articles should use the Perso-Arabic as Iranian Azerbaijani has its own ISO code and its alphabet is Perso-Arabic. The Azerbaijan republic articles should use whatever alphabet that the Azerbaijani-Republic users see fit. And sometimes it is fine to use both. Note the Perso-Arabic has been used for the Azerbaijani Turkish language for 600 years now. But there is no need for a silly conflict over this.
2) On Persian names, this is a separate issue from the Azeri Alphabet and the criterion is relavancy. Overall if a name is significant from Persian cultural-literature history, then it is relavant, specially if it has Persian etymology. This is not only with regards to the Caucasus but several other countries and has nothing to do with anything but culture. Just like some poets who existed in Ganja can be significant for modern cultures and there is no conflict there. So there is no conflict here, just like there was no conflict when the Persian name was here in 2008 until some ip removed it. On articles with toponyms of a country that has a different official language, it is fine to put the Persian name second (even though it is original name and etymology), and I have no problem with that. Note I am not talking up borrowed words from Persian that were used to build names in other languages. Rather, toponyms, names and etc. that existed in Persian originally before they were borrowed into other languages. Examples are Shirwan, Darband, Ganja and etc which have Persian roots. Note Baku although has Persian root and at one time the inhabitants were primarily Persian-speaking but later became Turcophones, but since it is the capital, it is good enough to mention etymology in the body of the text. But other toponyms are significant from the point of view of Persian influence, culture and literary heritage and thus there is no incompatibility just having several languages in the intro of some poets and etc. is not a cause of concern. If there are Azerbaijani-Turkish etymology for some names, even in different countries, it is also fine and relavent in my view. Overall, there is no reason why several names cannot exist and there is no need to make a silly conflict out of it.
Hope these are common sense and fair comments and there is no need for outside comments/mediatations on such a minor issue. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 16:02, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Please explain how it is relevant here. It never was official name of the city, and is Persian too. There's another Ganzak in Iran. What's the point in spelling the Persian name in Armenian? -- Grand master 05:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi, without getting involved, we can always say a root word is proto-indo-european and who knows where from there. In the case of Ganjeh, the word is actually new Persian and the actual word "Ganjeh/Ganja" (not Ganjak, Ganzda or any other derivative) is new Persian. But the word Ganjak would be Middle Iranian (examples: Middle Persian and Parthian) which gave rise to the New Persian. Of course Armenian includes lots of Middle Persian and Parthian loanwoards as you said from ancient times.
On the Persian name, basically it has been used for 1000 years+ in the form "Ganjeh"گنجه and used by poets from Ganja like Nezami. I have already given justification for Persian as Ganjak (Middle Persian)->Ganja (moden Persian) and Bosworth mentions the Persian word in Iranica. Where it came from to Middle Persian is not 100% known and it could be Median/Old Persian/Avesta or another Iranian languages.
On the issue of Armenian/Azeri alphabets. I will just make a suggestion here and I will not act towards this suggestion. Any other language, it is up to other users, but my suggestion has always been to include as many languages as possible, even if it leads to alittle anachronism or unrelatedness or etc. This is supposed to be an Encyclopedia and we should not politicize such a trivial thing. That is as an outsider (non-Azeri/non-Armenian), I have no problem with putting Ganja in Armenian here and Caucasian Albania/Arran in Azeri-Turkic in Caucasian Albania. But oher users could have different take and I am just giving a suggestion: where-ever there is a dispute on what names really belong and the dispute could be politically motivated, just put both names. Else the issue will not be resolved unless there is some sort of admin ruling.-- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 19:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
GANZAK(Ganja, Gk. Gazaca, Lat. Gaza, Ganzaga, Ar. Janza, Jaznaq), a town of Achaemenid foundation in Azerbaijan. The name means “treasury” and is a Median form (against Pers. gazn-), adopted in Persian administrative use
Gandzak hsa been an important city for Armenians (and for Persians), it is located in Armenia's province of Utik. Gandzak is not a Persian name, and its similarity with Persian stems from general similarity between Old Armenian and Persian. It was populated by Armenians centuries before Turks came to the Caucasus from the Central Asia. Greiwood ( talk) 21:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
It would be great if you add a section about the notable figures of this city. I just can't do it myself because I don't know any people from ganja except for nezami. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hazratemahmood ( talk • contribs) 18:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I checked out the sources of the demograhic and its not even correct. The first, second, third, fourth source is about Elisavetpol governorate and not just Ganja city. The Elisavetpol governorate included many other cities as it covered a large region. The only real source thats about the city of Ganja is in the year 1939, 1959 and 1999. The source for 1988/1989 doesnt even exist. So really the table can only show the numbers from 1939, 1959 and 1999. Neftchi ( talk) 09:29, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
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I remove the name of Ganja in Persian from preamble. The Persian is not official in Ganja. There are no any Persians in this city. If the name of the city derived from Persian we can use it in appropriate section "Origin of the name", but not in preamble. Please don't start edit war and don't return it to preamble without consensus (see WP:CONSENSUS). -- Interfase ( talk) 17:14, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
So, has the city over a million population or just 300K? The intro tells the "over a million", the Demographics sections, however - "over 300,000". 46.241.150.235 ( talk) 00:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
People have already been over this once before, but it seems we need it once more. The Persian name in the lede was recently removed by an user stating that today Azerbaijanis comprise the vast majority in Ganja. This is totally redudant given that the Wiki community has agreed in a consensus that ethnicities that have, or have had a major historical presence and/or ties to the city or a region, that they can have their native language's name added to that city or region's lede. F.e, look at all the cities in Eastern Anatolia, such as Erzurum, Ani, etc.
Well, the same goes for Ganja. Persians have such strong ancient and native ties to the city, it's simply unquestionable that the Persian translation (of besides a city name thats Persian too) should be added to the lede. Nizami Ganjavi amongst other are just some of the intellectual native Persian likes the city produced, and the Tats are just some of the Iranian-derived ethnics that have had a major presence historically in the city and are native to it.
I'm not here to push any ethnic or nationalistic stance, but looking at the rest of the noted historical cities and towns on eng.wiki, this seems to be the most logical conclusion.
- LouisAragon ( talk) 01:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
His personal name was Ilyas [1] and his chosen pen-name was Nezami (also spelled as Nizami and Neẓāmi). He was born of an urban [2] background in Ganja (Great Seljuq [3] empire now present-day Azerbaijan) and is believed to have spent his whole life in South Caucasus. According to De Blois, Ganja was a city which at that time had predominantly an Iranian population. [1] The Armenian historian Kirakos Gandzaketsi (Ca. 1200–1271) mentions that: "This city was densely populated with Iranians and a small number of Christians". [4]
And also counting on what LouisAragon said, I don't see why the Persian spelling shouldn't be there. By the way, you can't really compare Latin and Persian in this situation, that's a weak comparison. I don't have more to say really, since what LouisAragon said was really on point. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 11:49, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
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Is this the second or third largest city in Azerbaijan? The data seems at odds with what is claimed here. Uhooep ( talk) 23:12, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Is it 2nd largest, like the lead says, or 3rd, like it says in demographics? Troll Control ( talk) 09:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
The list of prominent people us divided into 2 separate part of ethically Azeri and Armenian famous persons, this list should be somehow merged and improved and also provided with citations. Kevo327 ( talk) 13:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Demographics reflected on the this article is based on information from low quality web site created on free hosting: "Кировабадский горсовет (1979 г.)". Ethno-Caucasus (in Russian). Archived from the original on 9 June 2012. At first look you think that archived from original means that from original legitimate information, but actually it just archived copy of this free hosting web page. Information provided on this page are conclusions of the author of this web page. This conclusions are not checked and verified by anyone. Therefore all information which refers to http://www.ethno-kavkaz.narod.ru/ shall be removed from article, until validity of information will be proved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.20.248.246 ( talk) 16:19, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Hello there. Can you tell me why there is an Armenian name in this article? Armenians have never been majority there and it's not a common name. If so, there should be an Azerbaijani name in the
Yerevan article.
VivaEspana11
(talk page)
19:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock of
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@ Mfikriansori: I made this talk page section for you out of sheer WP:GF. Please discuss your concerns over here with Kevo327 and ZaniGiovanni in relation to the lede. I.e. why, or why not, should the Armenian/Persian names be added to the lede? - LouisAragon ( talk) 00:42, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Last from me, eventhough maybe (as I don't study the presence of Turkic people in historic Yerevan deeply) not as significant as you said LouisAragon, they once formed the majority. Not only for one or two decades, but maybe a century. Even there was time when Armenian church was hard to find, many mosques commissioned by Erivan/Irevan Khanate (which labelled as Iranian/Persian), a Turkic khanate ruled over piece of South Caucasus. There were also other Turkic khanate, like in Karabakh or Ganja. It is easy to deny Azerbaijani connection to many place in Armenia because before 1936 they weren't refer as such, but Tatar, Caucasian Tatar, or simply Turk. So, Turkic people in Yerevan even when you said was not that important and their significance is lower than Persian/Russian/Armenian historical presence in Ganja, still they are important for the city's history itself. It was not until the first decades of 20th CE when Armenian formed majority again in Yerevan. But clearly, I get it from what you said. Yerevan is the capital of Armennia and it will be shameful for nation as old and civilized like Armenia to have even slightest mentioned of Azerbaijani (in form of their version of article's name), which is younger than cocacola. But, it is fine for Ganja, because it is not Baku and only a regional city. So, the conclusion is, I will add Azerbaijani name to the lede of regional city, both in Karabakh and Armenia, which had a significant presence of Azerbaijani (then known as Tatar, Caucasian Tatar, or Turkey). It is justified by looking at Armenian name present in the lede of Lake Urmia. Thank you. I hope you understand that English is not my first language and I also want to contribute to the English Wikipedia. Mfikriansori ( talk) 17:15, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
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We should have a section speaking about the killings of Armenians during the Nargono-Karabakh war causing the depletion of the Armenian population which was at least 15% of the population and used to be be 44% around the turn of the 20th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.165.152 ( talk) 22:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Ganje was a city in the persian empire until its capture by the russians in the 19th century. For Azeri etnicity, please refer to the appropriate article. It is important to note that the present state of azerbaijan is a very new phenomenon and no such state has ever existed before 20th century.
Please, note that Ganja is a historical Azerbaijani city. Its inhabitants all the time have been Azerbaijanis or Albanians, ancestors of Azerbaijanis. Please, don't try to credit Ganja to persians. I have no relations to persiona. Azerbaijanis and persians are different civilizations, different cultures, different ethnicities, different language and etc. No common feature other than being neighbors. -- 68.49.90.60 18:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Ganja appears closer to the Persian spelling and Ganca seems to be closer to the Azeri spelling. The United Nations Group of Expects on Geographical Names issued a working paper (WP 82) in 2000 entitled Classification of the Populated Localities On 1/600,000 Scale Map of the Azerbaijan Republic but they acknowledged that the conversion of the Azeri from cyrillic to roman had not been fully accomodated. The UN report still used Ganja. Fallingrain.com uses Ganca. signed: Bejnar 05:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The coat of arms used in the article is not being used since 1918 and I think it would be wiser to move it to the history section rather than display it as the emblem of the city. I have an image of the modern emblem adopted on January 21, 2003. I am still trying to figure out how to place it and what to do with licence. Does it count as a fair use if it is being used anywhere in the city?? Gancali 9:41, 4 November 2006(UTC)
The city was founded by Armenians in the early Middle Ages, has Armenian name, and from early times was home to a large Armenian community that was exiled in 1989. Gandzak gave Armenians many important figures of science, literature, arts and religion- see list. Zurbagan 07:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I added some things back that were referenced, [3] Artaxiad 03:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The article needs sources which show that it was an important city of Caucasus Albania (the Iranica article mentions Aran, Iran, Atabegs, etc... but not C.A) and another source which mentions the Turkic/Kurdish origin theory of the etymology (Iranica says that Ganja is from the Persian language, says nothing of Turkic or Kurdish.). Azerbaijani 04:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Kurdish etymology based on word "genc" is impossible, as it's a Turkic word, that's why Kurdish cannot be put there, and is covered by the Persian (or actually, it should state Pahlavi, not Persian). What reference is needed for the word genc? I can scan an Azerbaijani-English dictionary's page, if needed, but is that really necessary? Meanwhile, if the city was founded in 5th century, then obviously it was in Caucasian Albania, which existed in its full form (Naxcivan+Arran+Shirvan+Mughan+Daghestan) until 705 AD, and after that, until 10th century, was re-established a few times in what is known as Arran region (i.e., only between Kura and Araxes rivers). Hence, no citation is needed for that, it's automatically covered. -- AdilBaguirov 05:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism by some drug-lovers was reverted, and restored the original wording from John F. Baddeley and Caucasian Albanian historian Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) about Ganja. Additionally, Mxitar Gosh and Kirakos Gandzaketsi were Albanian, and their books were about Albania and written in Caucasian Albania (Arran). -- adil 21:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Interesting move by Adil. He replaces Persian and replaces it with Pahlavi, which isnt incorrect, however, neither was Persian, as Pahlavi was Middle Persian and was referred to as Parsik. The funniest part was when he put in place "middle Iranian" rather than putting in "middle Persian". I dont know what this user has against Persians, but he has expressed his feelings many times...I'll let others be the judge. Its also funny how he calls Encyclopaedia Iranica a "pan Persian" source...Lastly, he removes the dispute tag...Very interesting revert Atabek... Azerbaijani 01:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I wonder, Pejman47, what acedmic sources you are refering to in your claims-- Dacy69 19:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. These are the same users that claim every single source that contradicts them "not scholarly or not neutral" and yet when it comes to their sources, they use whatever they want! There is no "Turkic theory" for the name Ganja, that is pure historical fiction. That is why you cannot find one scholarly source that also supports this theory! Iranica says the name is derived from Persian, you cannot argue with Iranica when you do not have a scholarly third party source.
Pahlavi is middle Persian, read Britannica. This is getting real tiring.
Here is the Wikipedia article on Pahlavi: [4]
Middle Persian or Pahlavi is the Iranian language spoken during Sassanian times.
Here is the Britannica article on Pahlavi: [5]
Middle Persian, the major form of which is called Pahlavi, was the official language of the Sasanians (AD 224–651). The most important of the Middle Persian inscriptions is that of Shapur I (d. AD 272), which has parallel versions in Parthian and Greek. Middle Persian was also the language of the Manichaean and Zoroastrian books written during the 3rd to the 10th century AD.
Here is what Iranica says about the name Ganja: [6]
The Persian name Ganja/Ganza (<ganj "treasure, treasury"; see MacKenzie, p. 35) points, however, to there having existed a much older, pre-Islamic town there.
Adil and Atabek, its really tiring having to deal with these POV edits and OR. Wikipedia has policies against these, and you two are trying to argue against Britannica and Iranica?
If you want, I can bring up literraly hundreds of Iranian sources for a lot of claims, would you take those out now that you have shown your double standard? This is ridiculous Azerbaijani 20:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
user Azerbaijani, what is your problem man? I've told you already -- the Wikipedia's own page on Pahlavi language [7] says: "Pahlavi or Pahlevi denotes a particular and exclusively written form of various Middle Iranian languages." It is more correct to denote Pahlavi as Middle Iranian as it's shared by all Iranian people, not just Persians, and because primary Pahlavi speakers, Parthians, were different from Persians, who had their own language at the same time. So what is your complaint about? Meanwhile, nobody disputes the Iranica's take on Ganja, and of course, everyone (at least the Azerbaijani users) recognize that "ganj" is a Pahlavi word. As such, why don't you explain that to the Armenian users, so that they understand that a similar word in Armenian language, itself an Indo-European language, is from Pahlavi, and hence talking about Armenian origin of the word (and worse, the city) is groundless. -- adil 07:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I need to make some clarifications although since this seems to be an armenian/azerbaijani issue as well, I am not going to edit after arbcomm is over but I have made these comments assuming good faith from users to make the right edits. About the name, Ganja is Persian. Ganjak is the Middle Persian or Pahlavi version. Note the firt two links Adil brought: which are academic: [ [15]]: The dominant language of this stage was initially Parthian (Pahlawanig)and later Middle Persian, commonly known as "Pahlavi". And also the Britannica link Adil mentioned: e Persian is known in three forms, not entirely homogeneous—inscriptional Middle Persian, Pahlavi (often more precisely called Book Pahlavi), and Manichaean Middle Persian. Middle Persian belongs to the period 300 BC to AD 950 and was, like Old Persian, the language of southwestern Iran.. [16]. The first article was written by someone I know through e-mail and he is a history student (Iranian history) in UCLA and he reads Pahlavi, Avesta, Parthian, Soghdian, Old Persian, Latin, Greek, English, German... Very bright fellow. There is of course a group of scripts collectively called Pahlavi scripts. Pahlavi originaly was a term that denoted Parthians in the ancient era and then in the Islamic era Pahla was the area (Azerbaijan,Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan..) but scholars and Zoroastrians and Persian literature have used Pahlavi for Middle Persian and Parthian (which is a very similar language) for Parthian. Over all, the words Parth,Pars,Pashtu, Pahlaw,Persian, Parthav (modern Bard'a) and the word Pahlavan all trace back to Old Persian/Avesta Persu (Morgenstein a scholar in Pashto has a good article on this). But to make a long story short, Iranica article should be quoted directly and the Iranica article by Boseworth references Mackenzie's Pahlavi dictionary. Mackenzie's Pahlavi dictionary is a dictionary of Middle Persian. Thus Ganjak is Pahlavi(Middle Persian) but Ganja/Ganjah is modern Persian. Lots of words in Pahlavi have lost their last k to h in modern Persian. One example is Bandak in Pahlavi which is now Banda (which I believe has entered Turkish as bende). Now I am going to make a comment on Turkish/Armenian origin.
Besides the fact that I have not seen it so far in any western academicaly professional (written by a major Professor of the area) manuscripts, the theory of Turkic etymology for such a word is faulty since etymology has to be sought for Ganjak and not Ganja, since Ganjak is the more archaic form. The Ganja media center site contains OR research not backed by third party sources and so it should be removed by any decent users. For example, the sentences are poorly formed even and not on par with an academic site: A young scientist, Farrux Ahmadov who also had a PHD in History begun filling those “white sponts” in Ganja’s history with his researches.[ [17]]. What is white sponts? Also he says: We believe that, in ancient times the city was not called ‘Gəncə’ but ‘Qança’! And then sites İbn Xordadbek where-as the name is Ibn Xordadbeh and not Xordadbek. Note it does not connect to the word young anyways. Also note this sentence from the same link: According to the information given by Herodot, “Kirus crosses the Araz River and gets closer to Kur River. Then he moves toward a narrow valley (remember the Dar valley village in the Southern Ganja region- F.A.). The queen Tomris drags the multinumbered troops of Kiri into a trap and destroys them, and Kiri gets killed”.. Actually Herodotus mentions araxes which in his book denotes the Oxus. [18] [19] [20].I And futhermore Xenophon mentions natural death for Cyrus and I believe so does Ctesias, so over all there is some legendary material here which should not be used for etymology. The science of etymology is not easy but it has some general rules.
I am hoping based on the good faith of users, they will make the necessary corrections or or provide a neutral third party western source for any claim. As per the term being Armenian, Armenian language specially classical has a lot of Pahlavi/Parthian words words and one of them is Ganjak, but as described above, Ganjah is a Persian word where-as Ganjak is a Pahlavi (Middle Persian) word which also Armenian borrowed from Persian. Overall many etymologies in the region have Persian names: Azerbaijan, Darband, Ganja..Also one should add Shaddadid dynasty to the list as well since it was their capital as well. I'll make the edits with this matter of etymology after arbcomm, unless well intentioned users do so before. -- alidoostzadeh 23:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I can remove Pahlavi/Persian because it has already been discussed in the beginning. whether the word Gandz became a loan-word in ancient Armenian is your OR; with the same ease I can say the opposite - the original term was Gandz, and then it was translated into Persian. On Kirakos: stop your POV amd OR. In the Western historiography it is well documented that his work is called "Patmutiun Hayots" - hence the sources I had added. Sumgait.info - again, that is your OR and POV; it is just an article and should stay there asa link and readers will decide as to the nature of that website if they would want to go beyond the article into exploring the site. I can likewise suggest that Azerb. websites you included are racist. Leave this to the audience Pulu-Pughi 13:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
گویند که سلطان مهین بر در گنجه ست در گنجه کنون بین که ز بغداد فزون تر است خاقانی They say the exalted Sultan is at the door of Ganja Look at the pearl of Ganja as its more majestic than (the whole city of) Baghdad -- alidoostzadeh 22:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't bother, I found it in Russian edition of Kalankatuatsi’s book:
Спустя еще два года пришел хазр патгос, человек беспощадный и свирепый, но и сдох [здесь] в том же году. Но пришел сын его и покорил страну мечом, предал огню множество церквей, жителей взял в полон и ушел в Багдад. Затем он вновь пришел оттуда по царскому повелению и на средства казны построил в гаваре Аршакашен город Гандзак в двести девяносто пятом году [армянского летосчисления]. [26]
As I expected, the sock seriously distorted the source. It actually says that son of certain Khazr Patgos founded the city in the canton of Arshakashen. Here’s the quote from famous Russian scholar Vladimir Minorsky, who refers to the same text:
В 245/859 году [Мухаммад] построил город Джанза (Ганджа) в области (кура) Арран (Здесь, по-видимому, начинаются прямые цитаты из Т.-Б.). Причина была следующая: когда он находился в окрестностях Джубанта [47] (Хунанта?) (Возможно, Хунан, который находился на полдороге между Тифлисом и Ганджой. Согласно Истахри (стр. 189), он стоял на высоком холме и назывался также Кал'ат ат-тураб. Менее вероятно чтение Джавах.), где было три холма, ему приснилось в течение трех ночей подряд, что в одном из них зарыт клад, и (он слышал голос, который говорил ему): “Поднимись и останови там своего коня и, где конь ударит ногой, прикажи копать; затем возьми то, что найдешь там, и при помощи (находки) построй город и назови его Джанза [сокровищница]”. Он так и поступил и нашел три больших котла (мараджил): один был наполнен динарами, а два других — дирхемами. На эти деньги он построил город Джанза, а затем вернулся (А, л. 1052а) в Багдад, где сообщил халифу о кладе и о городе. Халиф сказал: “Города я не хочу, но найденные деньги отдай мне”. Мухаммад обязался вернуть деньги, но с условием, что халиф сделает наследным (владением) его и его детей город вместе с хорошо известными поместьями (дийа), которые и до сих пор называются Халидийат. Халиф утвердил дар, и Мухаммад вернулся в Джанзу. Он сложил с себя правление в Армении и удовольствовался городом Джанзой и доходом с поместий. [27]
Дата основания Джанзы (Ганджи) (245г.х./859), по-видимому, больше нигде не встречается (Более поздний источник — Нузхат ал-кулуб, написанный в 740г.х./1340 (GMS, стр. 91), относит основание Ганджи к 39г.х./659. Как указывает иранское название Ганза (Ганджа) ('сокровищница'), она, должно быть, существовала в доисламские времена. Провинция, где она лежит, называлась по-армянски Шакашен (греч. Сакасене) и даже во времена Александра славилась своим богатством (см. Адонц, Армения, СПб., 1908, стр. 421; Marquart, Skizzen, Wien, 1908, стр. 60. См. также хорошую популярную историю Ганджи, составленную М. М. Альтманом, Баку, 1949, стр. 15)), но историк Албании (Аррана) Моисей Каганкатваци (III, гл. 20, русск. пер. Патканяна, стр. 270) подтверждает, что “Гандзак в районе Аршакашена” был основан сыном жестокого Хазра патгос. Патгос, очевидно, стоит вместо патгоспан (перс, 'генерал-губернатор', 'вице король'), а в слове Хазр Маркварт (cм. Marquart, Streifzuge, стр. 402) справедливо видит искаженное имя Халид. Следовательно, армяне также приписывают основание Ганджи сыну Халида (Мухаммаду). Моисей добавляет, что Мухаммад построил Гандзак во время второго периода его правления Арменией, после чего он занял Сюник, напал на [племя] Балк и дошел до Алахечка. С этого момента история династии Йазидидов меняет свой характер: члены ее, назначавшиеся ранее на пост генерал-губернатора из Багдада, теперь становятся наследственными вассалами в своих ленных владениях. Как таковые они остаются вне поля зрения общих историков халифата. По этой причине значение Т.-Б. возрастает, так как это сочинение продолжает давать множество неизвестных фактов в связной форме. Легендой о Джанзе начинается ряд отрывков из Т.-Б., которые Мюнеджжим-баши имел в своем распоряжении. [28]
And here’s the same passage from Bosworth:
The post-Mongol historian Hamd-Allah Mostawfi says that the Arab town of Ganja was founded in 39/659-60 (i.e., at the time of the first Arab incursions into eastern Transcaucasia) but gives no details (Nozhat al-qolub, p. 91, tr. p. 93). A passage of the anonymous Tarik Bab al-abwab (extant in the Ottoman historian Monajjem-bashi's Jame al-dowal) states that Ganja was founded in 245/859-60 by Mohammad b. Kaled b. Yazid b. Mazyad, of the family of Yazidi governors in Sharvan, who was governor of Azerbaijan, Arran, and Armenia for the caliph al-Motawakkel, and so-called because of a treasure unearthed there, obviously a piece of folk etymology (see below). Mohammad resided there in his castle (qasr), presumably until his death in 247/861, making it the capital of Arran (Minorsky, 1958, tr. pp. 25-26, comm. pp. 57-58; cf. idem, 1953, pp. 5-6). Mohammad b. Kaled's role as founder (or rather, as re-founder, see below) of Ganja is confirmed by the Armenian historian Movses Dasxuranci, where he says that the son of Xazr (for Xald, as explained by Marquart, p. 462) Patgos built Ganjak in the canton of Arshakashen, with the date given in one manuscript as Armenian era 295/846-47 (bk. 3, ch. 20, tr. Dowsett, p. 218). The Persian name Ganja/Ganza (<ganj "treasure, treasury"; see MacKenzie, p. 35) points, however, to there having existed a much older, pre-Islamic town there. [29]
As you can see, foundation of the city has nothing to do with Armenians. The city was founded by Arabs in Arshakashen, which was one of the provinces of Caucasian Albania. Grandmaster 11:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Ganja can have more than one meaning, but its also the name of this city, so please dont vandalize the article again anon. Azerbaijani 13:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I hope you wanted to say - "don't vandalize again"-- Dacy69 15:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the Persian translation is there because Ganja in the first place is a Persian name. I reinserted it. Hajji Piruz 16:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I added the Historic Armenian community section back. I take full responsibility for the text as if I wrote it myself. There really is no good reason to exclude this information from this article. -- VartanM 01:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Also,I followed Grandmasters advice and requested permanent semi-protection. Which was declined, I guess we gonna have to go with my suggestion and rename the article to Gandzak. That would defiantly end all "ganja" related vandalism. But it might attract some Armenian pirates looking for gandz :) -- VartanM 01:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, I dispute pretty much all of original research which you put in without proper reference. I will add appropriate fact tags at the end of each sentence, which is not sourced, and you're welcome to bring those references to discussion. Atabek 22:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, why would someone not add sections about strong Azerbaijani communities that for centuries existed in almost every major city of the modern-day Armenia to each relevant article? It is really irrelevant to see a whole big section about an Armenian minority population of an Azerbaijani city. As usual, it is an obvious attempt to indirectly advance baseless Armenian territorial claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.241.215 ( talk) 23:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, who are these people Karo Halabyan and Askanaz Mravyan to be mentioned in the main body of the article? These personalities were so insignificant that they do not merit to be mentioned there. Just because they each have a small entry at the Soviet Encyclopedia doesn't mean they were so important. At most, you can move them to the famous people list. I am sure that even 99.999% of Armenians have never heard about this people. There have been hundreds of other people (mostly non-Armenians) hailing from Ganja who have been or are more prominent than those Armenians who are mentioned. Just goes to show that some people wish to show as many Armenian names as possible in this article, to advance goals which I mentioned above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.241.215 ( talk) 23:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
VartanM, please, provide proper source to Soviet census, the one you cited is not appropriate, as it has no page number, nor ISBN, nor document title or issue number. Atabek 22:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Atabek, is there any need? Anyways the Brockauz and Efron encycl. prove that words! Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, these sources are going to prove that Armenian name Ganzdak exists. Do you really need a source asking Ganja was known as Gandzak among Armenians? [30] [31] you can open any Armenian source! And it was known as Gandzak among Armenians since middle ages (Kirakos Gandzaketsi- Kirakos of Gandzak), or for example see the "Chronics" by Smbat Sparapet (XII century) : "he gave the Armenian city Gandzak to his junior brother Melek" (also see the comment: "Gandzak - modern Kirovabad, Azerbaijani SSR") [32] Or are you going to prove that the Gandzak name is known not only among Armenians (if yes, Im glad, the sources are asking the same thing)? Sorry but some days ago you denyed even the fact of existence of Gandzak name... Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
But Albania was also a region in Armenian Kingdom, so its never means the Gandzak name is not Armenian (if other nations also used it, Im glad, but its fact that Armenians too). Anyways if you believe its not only an Armenian name, than whats the problem to put it in the description, near the Turkish one? Otherwise we need to prove here even the existence of that name. Andranikpasha 19:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Really, Grandmaster, I see sources are asking different things, its really unclear. But as I know anyways he was born in Elizavetpol and taken to Chardakhlu after some days (its why the most reliable Soviet source marks Elizavetpol, not Chardakhlu)... Anyways we can make a consensus! Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Parishan: the term "Azeris" can be applied only to the period from 1920 onward, whereas here we talk about the entire history of the city. There were no "Azeris" in the 19th century and before. Verjakette 13:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
No, the passage refers to the entire history of the city: that's why there are names of medieval Armenian figures like Gosh. I do not see any connection between what Movses of K. said and the argument about the "Azeris." the city had Arabs, Persians and even Kurds as residents. Sheddadi rulers of the city were in fact Kurds. Verjakette 14:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Verjakette, Mkhitar Gosh was not an Armenian but Albanian figure. You may want to refer to the works of CJF Dowsett for further information. In future, please, obtain sources for the material you add in this article. So far your contributions are not cited and appear to be original research. Thanks. Atabek 14:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Atabek, if you remember, I asked and sourced once during a arbitration that Gosh was an Armenian (even there werent a discuss on them). Must I repeat myself everywhere with the same reliable sources asking Gosh was an Armenian monk? Andranikpasha 18:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Haha. I just saw Atabek saying Mkhitar Gosh was not Armenian.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a good book on ethnic nationalism that has a chapter on Karabakh conflict. It discusses the formation of Azerbaijani people in the 1930s and Azerbaijani nationalist myths about their history. See: Stuart J. Kaufman. Modern Hatreds: The Symbolic Politics of Ethnic War. Cornell University Press (June 2001). ISBN-10: 0801487366. pages 50-65. I also noticed that Grandmaster and his friends have succeeded in suppressing a balanced narrative in the article Caucasian Albania; as a result, this article has very little if anything about the influence of Armenian culture and identity in Caucasian Albania - despite the almost complete absence of evidence that any "Caucasian Albanian" culture or ethnic identity ever existed. How can we keep this POV out of Wikipedia? Verjakette 22:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way, Kaufman's chapter about Azerbaijani nationalism is available online from Google Books. Atabek's point of view reflects Azerbaijani nationalist doctrine, and thus is a POV. Verjakette 23:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it is irrelevant because Caucasian Albania was a country dominated by Armenian culture and civilization imported from Armenian provinces of Artsakh and Utik. It's alphabet, created by no other than Mashtots, have never been in extensive use because it became redundant. Armenians assimilated non-Armenian "Albanians" by 387 AD (not a big surprise given that the latter were so disorganized, diverse, and, likely, too few). Very little - if anything - "Caucasian Albanian" (ethnically) is documented after it received Christian baptism from Armenians. By 387, Caucasian Albania became just another Armenian kingdom (there have always been more than one), and that is what Movses Kaghankatvatsi documented in his work. He never calls himself or others in his work "Albanians" but "easterners." Movses Khorenatsi writes in the 5th century (and that is an important quote) that "Armenian is not spoken east of Kura" (i.e. spoken west of Kura). Ganca was built on Armenian-dominated soil - that is the point, by Arabs, and was ruled later by a Kurdish dynasty, and then the Seljuks came. But still, Armenians made up at least one-third of its population. Verjakette 16:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
No one is going to take away from Azerbaijanis what is rightfully their; if I were you I would concentrate on the Sheddadi dynasty - they started as Arabized Kurds but were Turkified by Seljuk Turks. Ganca was an important Muslim city after all. There is a lot to write about; leave alone the un-winnable dispute over "Caucasian Albanians." Verjakette 16:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
These passages show how confused are the authors whom you mentioned (not surprising - they are foreigners, saying something as strange as "in Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic." ?????). In the city of Berdaa the predominant language could have been non-Armenian (population in Artsakh and Utik could have been mixed, as argued by R.Hewsen), but it could have been a dialect of Armenian as well (for example, modern Karabakhi dialect is very, very hard to understand; it has twice (!) the number of vowels and some weird consonants - Russian Щ - compared with literary Armenian). That is why some researchers argue that the Albanian alphabet invented by Mashtots (if it existed at all) is simply a separate alphabet for the Armenian dialect of Artsakh and Utik. We simply do not know. Serbian and Bulgarian are mutually-intelligible but are considered as different languages nonetheless, the same is true about Azerbaijani and Turkish. Yesai Nchetsi writes that in the Middle Ages there were several Armenian languages. Any conclusion here original research by default - the entire "Albanian" stuff is complicated and incomplete. And what we should do - expose controversies that cause things not to add up. Verjakette 15:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
You are engaging in original research. The Arabic sources say that people of Arran and its capital Barda spoke their own Arranian language, and that is a verifiable fact. The rest are just your personal assumptions. A scholarly interpretation is that the language mentioned by Arabic sources was Albanian, and not some dialect of Armenian. See this quote from the article about Arran by C. E. Bosworth in encyclopedia Iranica:
Strabo 9.4, cites Theophanes of Mytilene that Albania had at least 26 different languages or dialects, and the distinctive Albanian speech persisted into early Islamic times, since Armenian and Islamic sources alike stigmatize the tongue as cacophonous and barbarous, with Estakhri, p. 192, Ebn Hawqal, p. 349, tr. Kramers-Wiet, p. 342, and Moqaddasi, p. 378, recording that al-Raniya was still spoken in the capital Barda’a or Bardaa in their time (4th/10th century). [38] Grandmaster 08:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster: I do not think people disagree with that: as you said - people of Arran and its capital Barda may have spoken their own Arranian language, and Albanian speech could have persisted into early Islamic times. That may be true. But this is not a hard fact. Your claim that it is a hard fact is a POV and original research. This is a hypothesis, and it should be categorized as such clearly. In contrast, the fact is that the Arranian "language" has been dead since early Islamic times, and only a handful of artifacts of Albanian script were discovered (and if those artifacts are indeed genuine documents and not forgeries, scholars cannot decipher those texts, as argued by VartanM). Against this flimsy evidence of non-Armenian life in Caucasian Albania there is a comparatively larger body of evidence about a near-complete assimilation of C.Albanian elites and commonfolk into Armenians shortly after Armenians turned them into Christians. Everything in Movses Kaghankatvatsi's texts is Armenian: first names of persons, toponyms, extensive discussion and identification with Armenians epical ancestors and saints, invention of "Albanian" script by Mashtots, etc. Modern Armenians bear "Albanian" names after all (Vachagan, Aghvan, Vache, etc.). That is a fact. My advise - give up this fight, or show more flexibility. Verjakette 14:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
...however, quotations from Arabic sources are interesting and useful; thanks for digging them up. Verjakette 22:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed Kaufman references, as its claim was simply ridiculous. How could Azerbaijanis/Azeris be named since 1930s, when the sovereign nation of Azerbaijan was established in 1918, moreover, Azerbaijan as historical name was known for ages. Atabek ( talk) 08:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I reverted some unexpl. deletions of sourced info. Andranikpasha ( talk) 16:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I deleted some of the information about Ganja, because all of the references indicated are subjective and reflect only the position of the Armenian side. The history of Ganja is described based solely on the opinion of the Armeninan historians instead of facts. Wikipedia is a place where one can obtain facts not opinions. Therefore, I suggest that the information based on the views of historians will be removed. Ganjali. February 15, 2008.
uber Engrish on that one... It made me laugh. But I'm high. So yeah. Anyway, somebody might want to clean that up... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.175.226.27 ( talk) 18:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah it does need a clean up, not just the wording but the facts as well. Can anyone take a look? Also, I wonder how many people other came to this page just because of it's name lol Elcaballooscuro ( talk) 15:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I disapprove of this move, which was done without discussion. No disambiguation page is needed for only 2 definitions (per WP:MOS). This article should be moved back to Ganja, but as far as I know that can only be done by an administrator. — jacobolus (t) 18:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The move to Ganja, Azerbaijan seems a good outcome. I've delisted this page from the WP:RM backlog, I think the proposal listed there is now obsolete. Andrewa ( talk) 01:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move, but move Ganja (disambiguation) to Ganja. JPG-GR ( talk) 02:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Ganja, Azerbaijan → Ganja — See discussion above — Andrewa ( talk) 15:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.There is some work done on a google search on the disambig talk page...I'll copy it below.. Narson ( talk) 22:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
From survey above: Ganja as cannabis is a (slang!) dictionary definition. Wikipedia:naming conventions do not distinguish slang from everyday usage. Andrewa ( talk) 03:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed a claim that the city of Ganja was part of the Kingdom of Armenia. It is logically impossible, as the city was founded in the 9th century A.D., and the Kingdom of Armenia stopped existing in the 4th century A.D. The following was used as a source for the claim:
Cameron, Averil; Bryan Ward-Perkins, Michael Whitby (April 16, 2001). The Cambridge Ancient History Volume 14: Late Antiquity: Empire and Successors, AD 425-600. Cambridge University Press, p. 674. ISBN 0521325919.
I would like to see the precise quote from the above source, as I highly doubt that this quote is accurate. Such authoritative sources as Minorsky or Iranica never mention Ganja as part of Armenia, since it is impossible because of timing. Grandmaster ( talk) 05:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Grandmaster, you said that the region was called Arran in Arabic and Persian. I reverted this because as we know Arran was used in Persian but also by the local moslem people of that area. We do not have other namings for this region. However the name in Arabic is not Arran but Al-Ran, in Georgian it was Ran-i and the Armenian Aghvank refers to an earlier period. It is known that Aghvank is derived from Alban but it is only probable and not sure that Aran or Arran is also derived from Alban. In any case Albania refers to an earlier stage of the regional history than Arran.-- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 13:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I think Noeros has a good point. It is not a standard practice to create sections on historic ethnic communities. In that case we need such sections in every region related article, such as Yerevan, for example. Grandmaster ( talk) 07:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Yefrem khan was not born in the city of Ganja, to which this article is dedicated. He was born in some village in Shamkir district. -- Grandmaster ( talk) 13:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I readded Persian name based on the fact that the Russian name is there. Plus this is an Encyclopedia and if a name has Persian root, then it should be mentioned regardless of the political status of its terrtiory as the primary goal is to have an Encyclopedia. The Persian name is significant for many Caucasian toponyms as many ancient texts have used it. It is at least as significant as the Russian script. The Persian name of Ganja is attested at least from 1000 years ago(for example Qatran Tabrizi mentions Ganja) and many other texts mention it. It was there also before and was removed. Note this is not related to Babak/GM's edit about Azeri script. On the particular Azeri script to use, I am not going to get involved. But articles with regards to Iranian Azerbaijan should use Perso-Arabic script as the Azeri language of Iran has its own ISO code. Those with the republic of Azerbaijan can use whatever script they wish. Sometimes we even have the Azerbaijani-Turkish name in articles in an era when the language did not exist and I was asked to remove it in a particular article and I said the issue is no big deal (for example during the era of 12th century A.D. there was no latin script and Azerbaijani Turkish had not formed yet as a distinct Oghuz-based language). I think in general since there is no wiki-guidelines (as far as I know), with regards to names, any name that has a certain or probable Persian etymology, or has been used frequently in the 1000+ years of classical "modern Persian" literature is valid for the intro. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 06:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment on the Azeri Alphabet and Persian language usage. I have been seeing lots of back & forth reverts.
1) Iranian Azerbaijani articles should use the Perso-Arabic as Iranian Azerbaijani has its own ISO code and its alphabet is Perso-Arabic. The Azerbaijan republic articles should use whatever alphabet that the Azerbaijani-Republic users see fit. And sometimes it is fine to use both. Note the Perso-Arabic has been used for the Azerbaijani Turkish language for 600 years now. But there is no need for a silly conflict over this.
2) On Persian names, this is a separate issue from the Azeri Alphabet and the criterion is relavancy. Overall if a name is significant from Persian cultural-literature history, then it is relavant, specially if it has Persian etymology. This is not only with regards to the Caucasus but several other countries and has nothing to do with anything but culture. Just like some poets who existed in Ganja can be significant for modern cultures and there is no conflict there. So there is no conflict here, just like there was no conflict when the Persian name was here in 2008 until some ip removed it. On articles with toponyms of a country that has a different official language, it is fine to put the Persian name second (even though it is original name and etymology), and I have no problem with that. Note I am not talking up borrowed words from Persian that were used to build names in other languages. Rather, toponyms, names and etc. that existed in Persian originally before they were borrowed into other languages. Examples are Shirwan, Darband, Ganja and etc which have Persian roots. Note Baku although has Persian root and at one time the inhabitants were primarily Persian-speaking but later became Turcophones, but since it is the capital, it is good enough to mention etymology in the body of the text. But other toponyms are significant from the point of view of Persian influence, culture and literary heritage and thus there is no incompatibility just having several languages in the intro of some poets and etc. is not a cause of concern. If there are Azerbaijani-Turkish etymology for some names, even in different countries, it is also fine and relavent in my view. Overall, there is no reason why several names cannot exist and there is no need to make a silly conflict out of it.
Hope these are common sense and fair comments and there is no need for outside comments/mediatations on such a minor issue. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 16:02, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Please explain how it is relevant here. It never was official name of the city, and is Persian too. There's another Ganzak in Iran. What's the point in spelling the Persian name in Armenian? -- Grand master 05:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi, without getting involved, we can always say a root word is proto-indo-european and who knows where from there. In the case of Ganjeh, the word is actually new Persian and the actual word "Ganjeh/Ganja" (not Ganjak, Ganzda or any other derivative) is new Persian. But the word Ganjak would be Middle Iranian (examples: Middle Persian and Parthian) which gave rise to the New Persian. Of course Armenian includes lots of Middle Persian and Parthian loanwoards as you said from ancient times.
On the Persian name, basically it has been used for 1000 years+ in the form "Ganjeh"گنجه and used by poets from Ganja like Nezami. I have already given justification for Persian as Ganjak (Middle Persian)->Ganja (moden Persian) and Bosworth mentions the Persian word in Iranica. Where it came from to Middle Persian is not 100% known and it could be Median/Old Persian/Avesta or another Iranian languages.
On the issue of Armenian/Azeri alphabets. I will just make a suggestion here and I will not act towards this suggestion. Any other language, it is up to other users, but my suggestion has always been to include as many languages as possible, even if it leads to alittle anachronism or unrelatedness or etc. This is supposed to be an Encyclopedia and we should not politicize such a trivial thing. That is as an outsider (non-Azeri/non-Armenian), I have no problem with putting Ganja in Armenian here and Caucasian Albania/Arran in Azeri-Turkic in Caucasian Albania. But oher users could have different take and I am just giving a suggestion: where-ever there is a dispute on what names really belong and the dispute could be politically motivated, just put both names. Else the issue will not be resolved unless there is some sort of admin ruling.-- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 19:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
GANZAK(Ganja, Gk. Gazaca, Lat. Gaza, Ganzaga, Ar. Janza, Jaznaq), a town of Achaemenid foundation in Azerbaijan. The name means “treasury” and is a Median form (against Pers. gazn-), adopted in Persian administrative use
Gandzak hsa been an important city for Armenians (and for Persians), it is located in Armenia's province of Utik. Gandzak is not a Persian name, and its similarity with Persian stems from general similarity between Old Armenian and Persian. It was populated by Armenians centuries before Turks came to the Caucasus from the Central Asia. Greiwood ( talk) 21:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
It would be great if you add a section about the notable figures of this city. I just can't do it myself because I don't know any people from ganja except for nezami. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hazratemahmood ( talk • contribs) 18:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I checked out the sources of the demograhic and its not even correct. The first, second, third, fourth source is about Elisavetpol governorate and not just Ganja city. The Elisavetpol governorate included many other cities as it covered a large region. The only real source thats about the city of Ganja is in the year 1939, 1959 and 1999. The source for 1988/1989 doesnt even exist. So really the table can only show the numbers from 1939, 1959 and 1999. Neftchi ( talk) 09:29, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
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I remove the name of Ganja in Persian from preamble. The Persian is not official in Ganja. There are no any Persians in this city. If the name of the city derived from Persian we can use it in appropriate section "Origin of the name", but not in preamble. Please don't start edit war and don't return it to preamble without consensus (see WP:CONSENSUS). -- Interfase ( talk) 17:14, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
So, has the city over a million population or just 300K? The intro tells the "over a million", the Demographics sections, however - "over 300,000". 46.241.150.235 ( talk) 00:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
People have already been over this once before, but it seems we need it once more. The Persian name in the lede was recently removed by an user stating that today Azerbaijanis comprise the vast majority in Ganja. This is totally redudant given that the Wiki community has agreed in a consensus that ethnicities that have, or have had a major historical presence and/or ties to the city or a region, that they can have their native language's name added to that city or region's lede. F.e, look at all the cities in Eastern Anatolia, such as Erzurum, Ani, etc.
Well, the same goes for Ganja. Persians have such strong ancient and native ties to the city, it's simply unquestionable that the Persian translation (of besides a city name thats Persian too) should be added to the lede. Nizami Ganjavi amongst other are just some of the intellectual native Persian likes the city produced, and the Tats are just some of the Iranian-derived ethnics that have had a major presence historically in the city and are native to it.
I'm not here to push any ethnic or nationalistic stance, but looking at the rest of the noted historical cities and towns on eng.wiki, this seems to be the most logical conclusion.
- LouisAragon ( talk) 01:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
His personal name was Ilyas [1] and his chosen pen-name was Nezami (also spelled as Nizami and Neẓāmi). He was born of an urban [2] background in Ganja (Great Seljuq [3] empire now present-day Azerbaijan) and is believed to have spent his whole life in South Caucasus. According to De Blois, Ganja was a city which at that time had predominantly an Iranian population. [1] The Armenian historian Kirakos Gandzaketsi (Ca. 1200–1271) mentions that: "This city was densely populated with Iranians and a small number of Christians". [4]
And also counting on what LouisAragon said, I don't see why the Persian spelling shouldn't be there. By the way, you can't really compare Latin and Persian in this situation, that's a weak comparison. I don't have more to say really, since what LouisAragon said was really on point. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 11:49, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
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Is this the second or third largest city in Azerbaijan? The data seems at odds with what is claimed here. Uhooep ( talk) 23:12, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Is it 2nd largest, like the lead says, or 3rd, like it says in demographics? Troll Control ( talk) 09:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
The list of prominent people us divided into 2 separate part of ethically Azeri and Armenian famous persons, this list should be somehow merged and improved and also provided with citations. Kevo327 ( talk) 13:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Demographics reflected on the this article is based on information from low quality web site created on free hosting: "Кировабадский горсовет (1979 г.)". Ethno-Caucasus (in Russian). Archived from the original on 9 June 2012. At first look you think that archived from original means that from original legitimate information, but actually it just archived copy of this free hosting web page. Information provided on this page are conclusions of the author of this web page. This conclusions are not checked and verified by anyone. Therefore all information which refers to http://www.ethno-kavkaz.narod.ru/ shall be removed from article, until validity of information will be proved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.20.248.246 ( talk) 16:19, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Hello there. Can you tell me why there is an Armenian name in this article? Armenians have never been majority there and it's not a common name. If so, there should be an Azerbaijani name in the
Yerevan article.
VivaEspana11
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@ Mfikriansori: I made this talk page section for you out of sheer WP:GF. Please discuss your concerns over here with Kevo327 and ZaniGiovanni in relation to the lede. I.e. why, or why not, should the Armenian/Persian names be added to the lede? - LouisAragon ( talk) 00:42, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Last from me, eventhough maybe (as I don't study the presence of Turkic people in historic Yerevan deeply) not as significant as you said LouisAragon, they once formed the majority. Not only for one or two decades, but maybe a century. Even there was time when Armenian church was hard to find, many mosques commissioned by Erivan/Irevan Khanate (which labelled as Iranian/Persian), a Turkic khanate ruled over piece of South Caucasus. There were also other Turkic khanate, like in Karabakh or Ganja. It is easy to deny Azerbaijani connection to many place in Armenia because before 1936 they weren't refer as such, but Tatar, Caucasian Tatar, or simply Turk. So, Turkic people in Yerevan even when you said was not that important and their significance is lower than Persian/Russian/Armenian historical presence in Ganja, still they are important for the city's history itself. It was not until the first decades of 20th CE when Armenian formed majority again in Yerevan. But clearly, I get it from what you said. Yerevan is the capital of Armennia and it will be shameful for nation as old and civilized like Armenia to have even slightest mentioned of Azerbaijani (in form of their version of article's name), which is younger than cocacola. But, it is fine for Ganja, because it is not Baku and only a regional city. So, the conclusion is, I will add Azerbaijani name to the lede of regional city, both in Karabakh and Armenia, which had a significant presence of Azerbaijani (then known as Tatar, Caucasian Tatar, or Turkey). It is justified by looking at Armenian name present in the lede of Lake Urmia. Thank you. I hope you understand that English is not my first language and I also want to contribute to the English Wikipedia. Mfikriansori ( talk) 17:15, 18 April 2022 (UTC)