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Archive 55 | ← | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 |
Outrage Over ‘Call of Duty’ LGBTQ Pride Brings Us Full Circle to Gamergate
Almost a decade ago, video game culture helped give rise to the "anti-woke" movement that continues to plague us today
Doesn't seem to add anything new, but continued mention. Maybe use as fresher RS? - ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 02:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
Video Game Conventions Are Still Hotbeds Of Sexualized Abuse
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/video-game-conventions-still-hotbeds-164000370.html
It was a familiar refrain. It’s been nearly a decade since the video game industry was rocked by Gamergate, a protracted, organized, and relentless harassment campaign against female gamers waged, in part, by members of the alt-right. And despite endless denunciations of it across the industry, along with promises to do better, women who attend gaming events and conferences say what happened at GDC is hardly surprising. Sexism among developers and gamers is still prevalent in Discord chats and subreddits; despite all the tough talk from the gaming establishment, the industry–and gaming conventions in particular–remains hostile to women and femme-presenting people.
Impact? Or lack thereof? - ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 02:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
In this case, it seems a bit circular/self-referential to use https://www.britannica.com/topic/Gamergate-campaign as a source in the Wikipedia entry, because it looks like a lot of paraphrasing of the Wikipedia entry over at Britannica.
You'll have to look for Britannica's entry, but I'm a little dubious. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
- ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 17:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
While I don't find particular fault with what was written, I'm giving https://compactmag.com a bit of side-eye as an RS. It hasn't been around that long. - ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 17:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
Rather than start an edit war, I would like to talk about this [1] edit a bit more. WP:YESPOV and WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV are met, but these two sources are not very good on as WP:RS, and in particular Compact is barely a year old.
And while I agree with to the relevance to some degree, I also do not think the additions completely rise to WP:DUE and start to border on WP:COATRACK
I think the removal was the better edit. - ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 19:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
In the section "Brianna Wu and other targets of harassment," it reads, "Shortly after the Gamergate hashtag was coined, video game developer Phil Fish had his personal information, including various accounts and passwords, hacked and publicly posted in retaliation for defending Quinn and attacking her detractors." That final "her" should be changed to "their" as Quinn's pronouns are they/them, which are already used elsewhere in the article to refer to them. Wehpudicabok ( talk) 08:21, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
In the Brianna Wu section, there is a confusing sentence: "The term "social justice warrior" emerged as the favored term of Gamergate proponents, resulting in its pejorative use becoming mainstream." I think it should be: "The term "social justice warrior" emerged as the favored term of Gamergate proponents to refer to their opponents, resulting in its pejorative use becoming mainstream." Cerulean Depths ( talk) 20:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
From the "Legacy" section:
" Business Insider compared QAnon and the GameStop short squeeze to Gamergate by referring to all three as " populist uprisings"."
I genuinely, in good faith, don't see how the GameStop short squeeze is that similar to GamerGate. If there was widespread doxxing and harassment involved, but I don't recall that much. Especially since it's only from one source and, IIRC, a earlier edit that compared the Hogwarts Legacy boycott (which did have doxxing and harassment involved) to GamerGate got reverted. TuneyLoon ( talk) 19:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
I was looking at this article out of curiosity and because I just don't understand this situation at all and I saw how long the Legacy section was. I was wondering whether or not we should split it so there's a separate article for it (something like Legacy of Gamergate). What are your thoughts on the idea? Great Mercian ( talk) 21:37, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Great Mercian and Woodroar: Draft:Impact of Gamergate is now available. Now that it is, if we're going to do an Rfc about a split, it should be done as quickly as possible imho, so that the existing #Legacy section doesn't start to drift away too much from the Draft. Do one of you want to take on creating the Rfc? As noted above, we should notify relevant WikiProjects, probably also WP:VPR, and any other centralized discussion that seems reasonable. Mathglot ( talk) 23:38, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
I went ahead and created it below, as #Split proposal. The guideline is opposed to using an WP:Rfc for that purpose, and so I followed the regular WP:SPLIT procedures, and notified all the WikiProjects, so hopefully we'll get a good response with a clear consensus one way or another. Mathglot ( talk) 09:31, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Re: @ Sideswipe9th's revert of my edit.
The PDF link in question is not a copyright violation. When I first found it on Google, I thought it was too, but I soon after found a page from the publisher ( The Verge) linking to the PDF in question:
The Internet of Garbage 1.5 available for free as a PDF...
"PDF" links to it. cv-revdel is unnecessary.
— Toast for Teddy ( talk) 22:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Courtesy link:
§ Split Legacy section?
I second Great Mercian's proposal above to spin off the § Legacy section into a separate article, title to be determined. The article is currently 71 kb of prose (236 kb raw) which is large enough. The content of the #Legacy section is large and well-sourced enough to make its own page. You can view a copy of the #Legacy section split off into its own draft here. Mathglot ( talk) 08:31, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
The impact or legacy of Gamergate is a much bigger topic than the events of Gamergate itself during the time it was going on. The view from only a few years later in 2024 makes clear that Gamergate has had a profound impact in numerous areas, which are only poorly covered in the current article, such as development of internet attack tactics, misinformation, online recruitment, rise of the alt-right, presidential campaign politics in the United States, ditto in Brazil and elsewhere, the January 7 Capitol Hill attack, mainstreaming of racist and misogynistic opinion in public forums and even by some political candidates, and much, much more (that's just off the top of my head).
These subtopics are all poorly covered in quantity and in quality in the #Legacy section, and hidden by the chronological sectioning already mentioned by some editors, which was an outgrowth of the rapid development of the article in its early days as Gamergate unfolded. A chronological organization no longer serves the article well, and would be best reorganized thematically, not chronologically. (I am not the first to point this out, and I agree with those editors who have already done so. In particular, Koncorde, you said that "the idea that a section can just be hived off per the draft is not an appropriate solution", but that was never the idea. Moving it to draft is only a first step, but you have to start somewhere, and having it there permits the thematic restructuring and expansion that keeping it local does not. So I actually agree with your comment.)
A comparison with World War II was made above, self-labeled as "silly", but although they are vastly different topics in their nature, as far as their impact, the comparison is not so silly. World War II had a profound, lasting, and global impact in numerous areas of human endeavor; exactly the same thing can be said about Gamergate. We need a separate article about the impact in order to be able to give a proper accounting of the latter; there is no way it is going to happen in the context of the current article. It needs to be reorganized thematically, and greatly expanded.
A thematic organization will make it clear what the huge number of secondary sources about the impact already do: that there is an enormous amount of material to cover in the topic of the impact of Gamergate. In fact, Gamergate has already had a lasting, profound, and global impact on social media, national and international politics, public opinion about journalism and representative democracy, mainstreaming of extremist opinion, presidential elections in numerous countries, and even the nature of public debate and truth itself in a world of post-truth politics, and that impact is likely only to grow.
To those arguing for reducing the number of quotations and reducing the size of the Legacy section in the current article, I think that approach is doomed, and it's only a matter of time before the Impact article is split out. Looking further on, I predict the Impact article will itself spawn a number of child articles on various subtopics of the overall impact; but let's not get ahead of ourselves. As for where we are right now in 2024, there is more than enough sourcing to support a standalone article on the Impact of Gamergate, and keeping it as a section in the current article unduly straitjackets its expansion per WP:DUEWEIGHT concerns. It should be split out to allow a proper treatment of the topic. Mathglot ( talk) 23:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Is it notable to mention the recent events surrounding Sweet Baby Inc that is being described as Gamergate 2. Below is a possible addition for the article. It can be cleaned up to be more neutral.
In March 2024, a harassment campaign led by previous Gamergate leaders (Redacted) and (Redacted) surfaced on Twitter and nicknamed as Gamergate 2. It started as analysts researched into why several high profile AAA video games were rejected by their fan bases. The common thread that manifested is Sweet Baby Inc - who is the consultant responsible the narratives straying too far from each game's corresponding mythos and established characters. There was spontaneous injections of political ideology that wildly stood out in every failed game that broke each fandom's immersion of their corresponding canon in favor of political pandering causing each game to be massively rejected. When a Steam curator created a list of Sweet Baby Inc games, (Redacted) and (Redacted) of Sweet Baby Inc initiated a harassment campaign to have followers falsely report the curator as breaking the Steam code of conduct. The harassment campaign backfired causing (Redacted), (Redacted), and Sweet Baby Inc to scrub their social media presence. The backfired harassment campaign caused a flurry of YouTube videos, memes, and new articles spreading more awareness of Sweet Baby Inc's involvement of injecting unnecessary political wokeness in video games causing games to fail and eventually causing studio layoffs and in some cases whole companies and franchises shutting down for good. Pusher ( talk) 05:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
injecting unnecessary political wokeness. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 14:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The infobox lists misogyny, anti-feminism and anti-progressivism as motives. These words probably describe the thinking of the Gamergaters but what they wanted to achieve is more appropriate here. It would be probably better if it was phrased along the lines of "Suppression of feminism and progressivism in video games". Everybody agrees on the harassment element which is obviously a means that goes a long way towards a goal of suppression. From the "Purposes and Goals" section:
Several writers who attempted to understand Gamergate's motivations concluded that, rather than relating to purported issues with gaming journalism ethics, Gamergate represented an effort to suppress opposing views.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 55 | ← | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 |
Outrage Over ‘Call of Duty’ LGBTQ Pride Brings Us Full Circle to Gamergate
Almost a decade ago, video game culture helped give rise to the "anti-woke" movement that continues to plague us today
Doesn't seem to add anything new, but continued mention. Maybe use as fresher RS? - ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 02:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
Video Game Conventions Are Still Hotbeds Of Sexualized Abuse
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/video-game-conventions-still-hotbeds-164000370.html
It was a familiar refrain. It’s been nearly a decade since the video game industry was rocked by Gamergate, a protracted, organized, and relentless harassment campaign against female gamers waged, in part, by members of the alt-right. And despite endless denunciations of it across the industry, along with promises to do better, women who attend gaming events and conferences say what happened at GDC is hardly surprising. Sexism among developers and gamers is still prevalent in Discord chats and subreddits; despite all the tough talk from the gaming establishment, the industry–and gaming conventions in particular–remains hostile to women and femme-presenting people.
Impact? Or lack thereof? - ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 02:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
In this case, it seems a bit circular/self-referential to use https://www.britannica.com/topic/Gamergate-campaign as a source in the Wikipedia entry, because it looks like a lot of paraphrasing of the Wikipedia entry over at Britannica.
You'll have to look for Britannica's entry, but I'm a little dubious. /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
- ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 17:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
While I don't find particular fault with what was written, I'm giving https://compactmag.com a bit of side-eye as an RS. It hasn't been around that long. - ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 17:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
Rather than start an edit war, I would like to talk about this [1] edit a bit more. WP:YESPOV and WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV are met, but these two sources are not very good on as WP:RS, and in particular Compact is barely a year old.
And while I agree with to the relevance to some degree, I also do not think the additions completely rise to WP:DUE and start to border on WP:COATRACK
I think the removal was the better edit. - ForbiddenRocky ( talk) 19:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
In the section "Brianna Wu and other targets of harassment," it reads, "Shortly after the Gamergate hashtag was coined, video game developer Phil Fish had his personal information, including various accounts and passwords, hacked and publicly posted in retaliation for defending Quinn and attacking her detractors." That final "her" should be changed to "their" as Quinn's pronouns are they/them, which are already used elsewhere in the article to refer to them. Wehpudicabok ( talk) 08:21, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
In the Brianna Wu section, there is a confusing sentence: "The term "social justice warrior" emerged as the favored term of Gamergate proponents, resulting in its pejorative use becoming mainstream." I think it should be: "The term "social justice warrior" emerged as the favored term of Gamergate proponents to refer to their opponents, resulting in its pejorative use becoming mainstream." Cerulean Depths ( talk) 20:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
From the "Legacy" section:
" Business Insider compared QAnon and the GameStop short squeeze to Gamergate by referring to all three as " populist uprisings"."
I genuinely, in good faith, don't see how the GameStop short squeeze is that similar to GamerGate. If there was widespread doxxing and harassment involved, but I don't recall that much. Especially since it's only from one source and, IIRC, a earlier edit that compared the Hogwarts Legacy boycott (which did have doxxing and harassment involved) to GamerGate got reverted. TuneyLoon ( talk) 19:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
I was looking at this article out of curiosity and because I just don't understand this situation at all and I saw how long the Legacy section was. I was wondering whether or not we should split it so there's a separate article for it (something like Legacy of Gamergate). What are your thoughts on the idea? Great Mercian ( talk) 21:37, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Great Mercian and Woodroar: Draft:Impact of Gamergate is now available. Now that it is, if we're going to do an Rfc about a split, it should be done as quickly as possible imho, so that the existing #Legacy section doesn't start to drift away too much from the Draft. Do one of you want to take on creating the Rfc? As noted above, we should notify relevant WikiProjects, probably also WP:VPR, and any other centralized discussion that seems reasonable. Mathglot ( talk) 23:38, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
I went ahead and created it below, as #Split proposal. The guideline is opposed to using an WP:Rfc for that purpose, and so I followed the regular WP:SPLIT procedures, and notified all the WikiProjects, so hopefully we'll get a good response with a clear consensus one way or another. Mathglot ( talk) 09:31, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Re: @ Sideswipe9th's revert of my edit.
The PDF link in question is not a copyright violation. When I first found it on Google, I thought it was too, but I soon after found a page from the publisher ( The Verge) linking to the PDF in question:
The Internet of Garbage 1.5 available for free as a PDF...
"PDF" links to it. cv-revdel is unnecessary.
— Toast for Teddy ( talk) 22:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Courtesy link:
§ Split Legacy section?
I second Great Mercian's proposal above to spin off the § Legacy section into a separate article, title to be determined. The article is currently 71 kb of prose (236 kb raw) which is large enough. The content of the #Legacy section is large and well-sourced enough to make its own page. You can view a copy of the #Legacy section split off into its own draft here. Mathglot ( talk) 08:31, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
The impact or legacy of Gamergate is a much bigger topic than the events of Gamergate itself during the time it was going on. The view from only a few years later in 2024 makes clear that Gamergate has had a profound impact in numerous areas, which are only poorly covered in the current article, such as development of internet attack tactics, misinformation, online recruitment, rise of the alt-right, presidential campaign politics in the United States, ditto in Brazil and elsewhere, the January 7 Capitol Hill attack, mainstreaming of racist and misogynistic opinion in public forums and even by some political candidates, and much, much more (that's just off the top of my head).
These subtopics are all poorly covered in quantity and in quality in the #Legacy section, and hidden by the chronological sectioning already mentioned by some editors, which was an outgrowth of the rapid development of the article in its early days as Gamergate unfolded. A chronological organization no longer serves the article well, and would be best reorganized thematically, not chronologically. (I am not the first to point this out, and I agree with those editors who have already done so. In particular, Koncorde, you said that "the idea that a section can just be hived off per the draft is not an appropriate solution", but that was never the idea. Moving it to draft is only a first step, but you have to start somewhere, and having it there permits the thematic restructuring and expansion that keeping it local does not. So I actually agree with your comment.)
A comparison with World War II was made above, self-labeled as "silly", but although they are vastly different topics in their nature, as far as their impact, the comparison is not so silly. World War II had a profound, lasting, and global impact in numerous areas of human endeavor; exactly the same thing can be said about Gamergate. We need a separate article about the impact in order to be able to give a proper accounting of the latter; there is no way it is going to happen in the context of the current article. It needs to be reorganized thematically, and greatly expanded.
A thematic organization will make it clear what the huge number of secondary sources about the impact already do: that there is an enormous amount of material to cover in the topic of the impact of Gamergate. In fact, Gamergate has already had a lasting, profound, and global impact on social media, national and international politics, public opinion about journalism and representative democracy, mainstreaming of extremist opinion, presidential elections in numerous countries, and even the nature of public debate and truth itself in a world of post-truth politics, and that impact is likely only to grow.
To those arguing for reducing the number of quotations and reducing the size of the Legacy section in the current article, I think that approach is doomed, and it's only a matter of time before the Impact article is split out. Looking further on, I predict the Impact article will itself spawn a number of child articles on various subtopics of the overall impact; but let's not get ahead of ourselves. As for where we are right now in 2024, there is more than enough sourcing to support a standalone article on the Impact of Gamergate, and keeping it as a section in the current article unduly straitjackets its expansion per WP:DUEWEIGHT concerns. It should be split out to allow a proper treatment of the topic. Mathglot ( talk) 23:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Is it notable to mention the recent events surrounding Sweet Baby Inc that is being described as Gamergate 2. Below is a possible addition for the article. It can be cleaned up to be more neutral.
In March 2024, a harassment campaign led by previous Gamergate leaders (Redacted) and (Redacted) surfaced on Twitter and nicknamed as Gamergate 2. It started as analysts researched into why several high profile AAA video games were rejected by their fan bases. The common thread that manifested is Sweet Baby Inc - who is the consultant responsible the narratives straying too far from each game's corresponding mythos and established characters. There was spontaneous injections of political ideology that wildly stood out in every failed game that broke each fandom's immersion of their corresponding canon in favor of political pandering causing each game to be massively rejected. When a Steam curator created a list of Sweet Baby Inc games, (Redacted) and (Redacted) of Sweet Baby Inc initiated a harassment campaign to have followers falsely report the curator as breaking the Steam code of conduct. The harassment campaign backfired causing (Redacted), (Redacted), and Sweet Baby Inc to scrub their social media presence. The backfired harassment campaign caused a flurry of YouTube videos, memes, and new articles spreading more awareness of Sweet Baby Inc's involvement of injecting unnecessary political wokeness in video games causing games to fail and eventually causing studio layoffs and in some cases whole companies and franchises shutting down for good. Pusher ( talk) 05:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
injecting unnecessary political wokeness. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 14:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
The infobox lists misogyny, anti-feminism and anti-progressivism as motives. These words probably describe the thinking of the Gamergaters but what they wanted to achieve is more appropriate here. It would be probably better if it was phrased along the lines of "Suppression of feminism and progressivism in video games". Everybody agrees on the harassment element which is obviously a means that goes a long way towards a goal of suppression. From the "Purposes and Goals" section:
Several writers who attempted to understand Gamergate's motivations concluded that, rather than relating to purported issues with gaming journalism ethics, Gamergate represented an effort to suppress opposing views.