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Should Eron Gjoni's side of the story be reported?
I tried to add Eron Gjoni's side of the story in edit 734887712, but it was quickly reverted by frequents editors of this article citing "need for concensus," which seems to be abuse of the concept of concensus. Concensus is noted to be needed for bold edits. I'm adding Gjoni's side of the story in a tiny manner. There is no controversy in that. Not noting his side of the story would infringe upon WP:BLP. Mr. Magoo ( talk) 11:22, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
should this be documented in the article?, then, if the article contains other opinions on Gjoni & his actions (and it does), the answer is clearly Yes. I note that the reversion discussed above also included concerns about WP:RS and WP:OR. The HeatStreet interview which formed the primary source basis for the original edit was written by a notable journalist in a publication owned by a reputable organisation. Reliability is also contextual (the operative question is "Does this source verify the content for which it is a reference?"); given that if the information included is firmly fixed in a context of attributed statements, not "fact", reliability hinges on whether we believe that the journalist or the publisher would have misrepresented the interview subject's statements. Given the reputations of the journalist & publisher, I do not consider that such is a sustainable position to take in this instance. If possible, I would like to better understand
Comment (summoned by bot): I have to agree with several observations already made above. First, it's typically not appropriate to launch an RfC, and thus consume a great deal of volunteer time, if even the most basic of efforts at discussion and consensus building on the matter have not been attempted. Then again, in this instance, with a topic of this profile, under discretionary sanctions, it's probable that this was never going to get solved without community involvement, so the rush to RfC can be overlooked and good faith presumed. What is more problematic is the way in which the RfC, once undertaken, was approached; that is to say, with very little concern for the requisite neutrality in the presentation of the basic query. Putting aside the issues here for a minute, I'd like to encourage Mr. Magoo to read the RfC guidelines before their next efforts at RfC and would like to advise him, with candor, that he will only predispose experienced editors to questioning the neutrality of his perspective by presenting the central issues in such a loaded and one-sided manner.
Now, those procedural issues addressed, I have to agree that this does seem to be essential a WP:Weight issue. I'm not sure if Gjoni's assertions should be excised entirely, but until such time as a more substantial portion of the considerable number of reliable sources we have on this topic give serious discussion to his qualifications of the events in question, then it is completely undue to to discuss them at any significant length. The truth is, I'm not sure that Gjoni's efforts to qualify his acts are at all encyclopaedically significant to be worth mentioning; as a consequence of how the controversy unfolded, we know exactly what he said, but his blog post was little more than the catalyst for the larger and more relevant events which the article is mainly concerned with.
In short, I'm not sure his motive is really important; what the sources overwhelmingly lean upon is how the comments were received, the cascade of controversial behaviour it set off online and the media furor and debate that resulted. We have only one source here discussing Gjoni's views, and that source, an interview which essentially serves as a platform for Gjoni himself to assert his perspectives on controversy, is essentially just a single primary source. That's not really selling the content as WP:DUE, not without a secondary source or three to help support these perspectives as relevant enough to bear mention when talking about the controversy broadly. Snow let's rap 12:40, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
People are considered reliable sources on their own opinions; even if you classify Gjoni's opinions about Gjoni as a primary source, you don't need to have a secondary source for someone's statements about himself to include them in an article that also makes statements about him. It is an exception to the rules about secondary sources. Also, the rules about taking human dignity into account would seem to require allowing statements by Gjoni to be included when discussing Gjoni. Ken Arromdee ( talk) 02:29, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Terribly sorry but if I could just go back to the beginning of this discussion and say that, everything else aside, this shouldn't have been reverted on these grounds. Other grounds could have been used, but "no consensus" is not valid grounds to make or undo an edit.
To explain, please read Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus" ( WP:DRNC) and be persuaded.
Instead, maybe find some other grounds to revert. Maybe the objections behind the lack of consensus.
In the future, anyone may revert any edit explicitly justified on no other grounds than "this doesn't have consensus" or "you have to get consensus before adding this" or "get consensus before making this edit", "No consensus!!!", and so on.
When doing so, all that is needed is to put " WP:DRNC" in the edit summary, and then edit may then be redone on some other grounds. Chrisrus ( talk) 16:35, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Just a note on relevant policy: "no consensus" is seen as the weakest form of argument against an edit (with limited exceptions) but there doesn't seem to be anything explicitly in policy that forbids it. The highly-regarded essay WP:BRD states "BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes. Don't invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else's work or for edit warring; instead, provide a reason that is based on policies, guidelines, or common sense." which would seem to indicate that the practice is frowned upon (an indication reinforced by longstanding social norms). To sum up, this type of reversion isn't specifically disallowed, but is generally seen as being poor form and a weak argument. For future reversions, it would be better to cite a policy-based argument or a reason why that particular edit detracts from the quality of the article. The Wordsmith Talk to me 22:32, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Can we WP:SNOW this or at least the RfC template? Rhoark ( talk) 14:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
About a year ago I raised the concern that the tone and weight of the most reliable sources were not being followed. That discussion led to the creation of a draft, which as many of you are already aware, is now complete. There have been some positive changes to the main article in the meantime, but I believe change is still necessary on several grounds:
Since the draft is a lot to digest at once, and the impetus revolves so much around top-level structure, let's begin with a discussion of that structure.
There are two modifications to this structure that are likely to be suggested. The first is to begin with the history of issues starting in 2012. I did not favor this as it delays introducing and defining the Gamergate movement, without which it is harder to explain how those issues related to the contemporary controversy. The other likely suggestion is that the section on harassment should immediately follow Quinn's section. To that I would re-iterate that harassment is discussed in every section, in terms of how it relates to the topic. To jump immediately into harassment would start with Sarkeesian, which would be awkward to do without describing her views. Likewise, the question of how responsible the movement is would necessitate defining it. In the end such changes would lead to something not very different from what I have already done.
If someone has a good idea though, they are from this moment free to enact it. I have copied the draft into Draft:Gamergate_controversy.
Rhoark ( talk) 04:48, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Various men and women across the spectrum of debate have been subjected to online harassment after presenting opinions on Gamergate.', and your reference to the organised effort to push prominent female voices from the industry as a '
cultural debate about [...] the inclusion of women in video gaming'. One wonders why you solicited feedback if you had no intent of changing what you've written. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 05:24, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
when I improved the RfC- 'rolling eyes emoticon'. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 05:46, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
::I just read the
Draft:Gamergate_controversy page, which I assumed was mostly written by you. Since I am not eligible to post on the Talk page, I'd like to submit my feedback here.
I finally had time to take a look. As I see it, there are issues, big issues. Some examples:
Now don't get me wrong, I think there are problems with the current article as well. We place too much focus on many individual events rather than telling a coherent summary. But the draft doesn't fix that problem. I hate to say it, but I doubt we'll be free of that particular issue until a good number of long-form or book-length pieces appear that we can use as a guide. Just my $0.02. Woodroar ( talk) 00:58, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Synthesizing the various points raised by Masem, Kingsindian, Olivier, and Jorm I've made a significant reorganization and reweighting of material, visible now on the draft. Rhoark ( talk) 16:49, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
If anyone's looking to contribute and doesn't know where to start, they might try integrating some of the new perspectives elicited by Clinton's speech today. [1] [2] There's obviously several claims about American politics, but a few things that might be added about feminist criticism or the Gamergate movement. Rhoark ( talk) 20:28, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
"The controversy was incited by accusations made in August 2014 against game developer Zoe Quinn that led to anonymous harassment against her"
Awesome victim blaming there, right in the lede. "Zoey's accusations started it and that's why she got harassed". She deserved, then, is what you're trying to say. In Wikipedia's voice.-- Jorm ( talk) 20:41, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
I've tagged the article as needing updates and for being unbalanced in presentation, as these are the main qualities by which the draft is an improvement. As I've said, these problems are surface symptoms of the article's disorganization. The present article does not have sections so much as coatracks. As a collection of opinions disconnected from their neighbors and hidden from contrasting opinions elsewhere in the article, relative prominence cannot be ascertained. It violates NPOV per se.
Some specific issues
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That's just a sampling of issues that were easy to identify and bullet-point. |
Overall this article is a wreck with respect to NPOV. Some people apparently consider this to be fine, for two main reasons I can tell:
Some would like to take these things incrementally, but it should be clear now that it's unworkable. Everything is so framed by inappropriate synthesis and irrelevant headings that any improvement would be a domino effect towards a new article. Well, I've written that article. It may not be perfect, but improvement does not preclude further improvement. I probably have some blind spots in my own POV, which is why people who are not happy with the draft need to get more involved instead of WP:STONEWALLING. It's time to start identifying what precise textual changes are needed in order to reach consensus it's an improvement on the article. Rhoark ( talk) 17:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
As soon as you start evaluating coverage as "negative" or "positive" and using that to weight it, you're clearly violating WP:NPOV
our requirement is to write an article that is primarily about the side with more weight behind it, structured primarily around that view
Sorry for the gamergate undo, DHeyward. It was just that your reasoning seemed to me to be based on a misapprehension, though I could be mistaken. You said that there had been a legal decision which found to the contrary of the passage at issue. I don't believe there is one. The major legal fallout of which I am aware was Mr. Gjoni's first amendment challenge to the order preventing him from posting "anything" about Ms. Quinn. That was ultimately declared moot as she voluntarily dismissed the order during the pendency of the appeal [3]. Even within that challenge, the real question was the power of the trial judge rather than the underlying facts. If you think there is a different case or some such that is as you describe, bring it to my attention and I will self-revert. Thanks. Dumuzid ( talk) 05:27, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Quinn acknowledged that Gjoni was not "directing" the third parties to harass her, but she alleged that he nevertheless was distributing the information online in a manner that he knew would have that effect (e.g., by specifically targeting the information to groups or people that he knew were already hostile to Quinn). Gjoni denied any conscious effort to harm Quinn, and asserted a First Amendment right to comment about her.". I'd like to point out 'nevertheless was distributing the information online in a manner he knew would have that effect'. We leave matters like this to reliable, qualified journalists to decide on, not Wikipedia editors reading through primary sources. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 07:29, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, that's rather byzantine. I think the appeal to WP:BLPCRIME is misguided here and at best an unhelpful distraction. Personally I think the quote is unnecessarily sensationalist. There have been suggestions for a rewrite above that I think handle it much better then the current wording. — Strongjam ( talk) 16:39, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Dear editors: In the event that you discover what you believe to be a clear BLP violation, rather than simply constantly reverting and filibustering, consider bringing it up on WP:BLPN. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 11:26, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
As I pointed out above, there are two opposed policies here. One is that text which has been reasonably stable is assumed to have consensus ( WP:EDITCONSENSUS). The other is WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE. I am a bit fuzzy here, but I believe the former is technically right since otherwise anything dealing with any BLP could be theoretically challenged again and again (I believe this could be called "sealioning").
Having said that, I pointed out above that this text was added last December, after a similar text by the same reporter was removed on WP:BLP grounds. If I had known about the addition then, I would have opposed it. PeterTheFourth said above that this has been discussed "ad infinitum". I am not sure what they mean, because I can't find any discussion of it on the talkpage, either before or since. The only discussion I found - which was not strictly about this text - was an inconclusive RfC started by Mr. Magoo (which was archived recently without anybody closing it). Now, one can technically take refuge in WP:CONSENSUS: since nobody challenged it back in December, it has consensus. But I don't think it is in the spirit of the policy.
I asked people a simple question which nobody has answered. If some reporter had made a highly inflammatory claim about Sarkeesian, replicated nowhere else and denied by Sarkeesian, would you insert the quote into the article without giving Sarkeesian's response? It behooves us to be conservative in our claims involving WP:BLP. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:12, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Quick question: is there anyone other than PTF, Artw, and Binksternet who supports inclusion of the quote in its current form? I believe everyone else who has edited this passage or otherwise commented on it expressed support for removing or modifying it. -Starke Hathaway ( talk) 14:38, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
"PTF, Artw, and Binksternet don't count" is not to my knowledge a Wikipedia policy.Thank goodness no one has said such a thing! But when assessing what, if any, consensus exists I find it is often useful to know what positions there are and who supports them. -Starke Hathaway ( talk) 18:48, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Ask and ye shall receive. -Starke Hathaway ( talk) 19:13, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
A Request for Comment about this draft has been made at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gamergate draft. Rhoark ( talk) 03:11, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
"Some journalists have been reluctant to revisit the controversy when new developments might validate the Gamergate movement."This rests mainly on the source text, "Muddled identity aside, mainstream observers have little inclination to revisit the issue. A number of top journalists in the field declined to speak to CJR on the record because they feared validating Gamergate as something more than a collection of trolls." Combining these two sentences is not a synthesis but a paraphrase. Summarization can reach across not just sentences but whole works, in which case the guiding policy is
"A summary of extensive discussion should reflect the conclusions of the source."The broader relevant source text is:
“ | Gamergate believers see themselves as consumer watchdogs of a games press that’s too cozy with the industry it covers; many posting under the tag appear to be soldiers in a culture war that extends far offline. Mainstream journalists ignored or declined to join in SPJ’s recent outreach, trying to avoid the anonymity-fueled invective that inevitably follows Gamergate-related discussions. The most sincere of the hashtag activists seek legitimacy in those same mainstream eyes. And to many of them, SPJ, an organization with an ethics code and professional-sounding name, makes for an ideal arbitrator to re-litigate what they compare to original sin: the media labeling Gamergate as a movement of hate.
SPJ’s goal in this endeavor is to essentially empower moderate elements within Gamergate—to target those who really care about ethics in gaming journalism. But if reckoning with Gamergate’s origin story is a prerequisite for that goal, as Slate columnist David Auerbach argues, it may very well be impossible. “I think that there is next to zero interest among the press in establishing the facts around Gamergate, and quite a lot of pressure *against* establishing a factual record,” Auerbach writes in an email. |
” |
“ | It’s unclear whether engaging Gamergate will help SPJ engage the gaming community more broadly. Many mainstream journalists and academics argue that the organization is focusing not on a devoted movement with a potentially dangerous fringe, but on a group that is itself a potentially dangerous fringe.
“Some of it is really focused on reforming game journalism,” says Mia Consalvo, a Concordia University professor and president of the Digital Games Research Association. “Some are very focused on their image in the mainstream media. And then some are very angry with academics, with people like me, who they view as trying to inject feminist critiques into gaming culture.” Muddled identity aside, mainstream observers have little inclination to revisit the issue. A number of top journalists in the field declined to speak to CJR on the record because they feared validating Gamergate as something more than a collection of trolls. One described the hashtag not as a movement with goals, but rather as a platform “used by anyone who wants to say something.” Another feared it would inject false equivalency into the debate: “There is no Gamergate and anti-Gamergate,” he says. “That’s like saying people who don’t collect postage stamps are anti-postage stamps.” |
” |
The Society of Professional Journalists put together a few events with some Gamergate supporters, focusing on ethical issues in journalism. However, most mainstream journalists declined to participate: they viewed Gamergate as a collection of trolls and feared that engaging with Gamergate would validate them.Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 18:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Others such as Nathaniel Givens [1] or Ben Southwood [2] [3] say the controversy represents a schism within the political left.Strongjam pointed out what might be considered doubtful language in "This makes me think that gamergate might be best characterised as a case of leftist infighting". I think this is just a bit of British elocution though. It is the main idea of the piece, and he points out that it concords with things he said in the earlier piece. Rhoark ( talk) 18:50, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
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I have removed the characterization by Zachary Jason of Gjoni's intent in posting the account According to Zachary Jason of Boston magazine, Gjoni deliberately crafted the post to resonate with members of the gaming community, "some of whom he already knew were passionately predisposed to attacking women in the industry".
The reasons are as follows:
From the start, it seems, Gjoni wanted to make certain that his blog about Quinn would connect with a large base of people in the gaming community, some of whom he already knew were passionately predisposed to attacking women in the industry.Some point after the previous statement was removed, this was added, I don't know why.
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Will one quote a negative opinion of intent by one random reporter of some random living person, say Sarkeesian, which is denied by Sarkeesian, not replicated anywhere else, is manifestly irrelevant and not even give Sarkeesian's response? The question answers itself.
Reading the article, it's pretty clear that it's a hatchet job. Even back then, Gjoni wrote a couple of posts about his viewpoint on the Boston Mag article. I have no problems with hatchet jobs in general, they are one of the most enjoyable and informative formats to read. But one doesn't add such content willy-nilly into an encyclopedia. As far as I can see, this quote by Zachary Jason was added here, a few days after the earlier quote about "maximum pain and harm" by the same reporter was removed, after talk page discussion. There was no discussion on the talkpage before adding the content, and no reference to why the old quote was removed. The edit summary was unclear. There was a flurry of edits during that time: if it had been my practice to watch the page like a hawk, or if I had known about it then, I would have objected, for the same reasons as now. Now, we can take the position that this quote has consensus because nobody challenged it, and we will be technically right. From my perspective, it is in the article because nobody noticed it back then. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 03:25, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
I go back and forth on whether this quote helps the article, but my current thinking is somewhat different. Why not remove Gjoni from the article entirely? He's not otherwise notable (no offense to him, of course), and I think just describing him once generically as "an ex-boyfriend" or "former paramour" or some such would have a salutary effect on the article, and protect privacy at the same time. I think it would look something like this:
In August 2014, a former boyfriend of Quinn's published the "Zoe Post", a 9,425-word blog post that quoted from personal chat logs, emails, and text messages to describe their relationship. The post, described as "a rambling online essay" in The New York Times,[7] complained, among other things, that Quinn entered a romantic relationship with Nathan Grayson, a journalist for the Gawker Media video game website Kotaku. The post was linked on 4chan, where some erroneously claimed the relationship had induced Grayson to publish a favorable review of Depression Quest. Grayson had never reviewed Quinn's games and Grayson's only article for Kotaku mentioning her was published before their relationship began.[12][13][14][15]
After the blog post, Quinn and her family were subjected to a virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign.[16][17][18] The people behind this campaign initially referred to it as the "quinnspiracy", but adopted the Twitter hashtag "Gamergate" after it was coined by actor Adam Baldwin near the end of August.[18][19][20][21] Baldwin has described Gamergate as a backlash against political correctness, saying it has started a discussion "about culture, about ethics, and about freedom".[22][23] Journalists who did not cover the examination into Quinn's private life were accused of conspiracy, and a blacklist circulated by Gamergate supporters.[24] The accusations and harassment were coordinated by 4chan users over Internet Relay Chat (IRC), spreading rapidly over imageboards and forums like 4chan and Reddit.[9][18][25][26]
Feel free to tell me that I'm wrong and that my opinions are destroying Wikipedia. Thanks. Dumuzid ( talk) 13:36, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Gjoni later updated the blog post to acknowledge this. The "acknowledge" should be "clarify", by the way - the source says nothing about acknowledging. I think the last sentence is useful, but I am willing to be persuaded otherwise. However, I don't think the "paraphrasing" is materially any different from direct quoting; if anything it is worse. The quote, taken literally, is meaningless. If, for the sake of argument, we agree that the clauses: "Gjoni crafted the post to resonate with gamers" and "some gamers harass women" are both true, it does not follow that "Gjoni crafted the post to encourage harassment". In the article, the latter conclusion is attributed to Arthur Chu and Jesse Singal, with Gjoni, his female dev friends and mother quoted for balance. I again return to my original point: Gjoni's intent is irrelevant. Whether he intended harassment or not, it occurred. Almost all sources don't speculate about his intent, for this reason. One can also quote the proverb: "the road to hell is paved with the best intentions", so even if his intentions were good, it doesn't mean anything. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:24, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
- "He was keenly aware of attracting an impressionable readership. “If I can target people who are in the mood to read stories about exes and horrible breakups,” he says now, “I will have an audience.”"
- "One of the keys to how Gjoni justified the cruelty of “The Zoe Post” to its intended audience was his claim that Quinn slept with five men during and after their brief romance."
"Despite its length, Gjoni’s post amounts to little more than the kind of nasty, post-breakup gripes spurned partners lament about with close friends. But thanks to a number of key factors, his allegations have turned into a hot-button issue for a certain sector of the gaming community, which has twisted Gjoni’s dirty laundry into a narrative of industry corruption—a tale that is not based on provable fact." and "Gjoni’s post never makes either allegation."
Magoo - Repeatedly misrepresenting the outcome of an RfC here and in other places really isn't helping your case, you should probably stop doing that. As for BLPCRIME, that does not seem to be applicable. I'm not seeing a BLP case for your removal of content either, perhaps you should take that to the relevant board? Artw ( talk) 19:01, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
This was discussed before ad infinitum, and I'm disappointed to see the same well being dredged. It's not a rumour simply because such a thing is asserted- it's the conclusion of a qualified reporter who is unrelated to the harassment campaign or its targets. That is, it's from a perfectly reliable secondary source. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 22:25, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
How about this? Mortensen says,
As far as it is possible to tell, GG started as a harassment campaign aimed at developer Zoe Quinn, with her previous boyfriend Eron Gjoni as the initiator for the first accusations against her. Gjoni was drumming up sympathy for himself, justifying his anger through telling stories about Quinn in comments (later deleted) at forums Something Awful and Penny Arcade (2014c). It was discussed on the Internet Relay Chat (IRC) channel #burgersandfries (Unknown, 2014c), and while the available chat log has been disputed, it has so far not been disproved. According to this chat log Gjoni also posted on 4chan, and the stories he had been telling in his blog The Zoe Post (2014a) were refined and used to fuel the anger of members of these different forums.
Rhoark ( talk) 01:28, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Binksternet's
argument for retaining the Boston Mag quote on the basis that the article in which it appears was cited in Continuum is a non-starter. The statement in the Continuum article for which Boston Mag is cited is After accumulating
16 gigabytes of abuse (Jason 2015)
. Nothing about Gjoni's intent, and in any event a mere citation wouldn't strengthen the sourcing for that attribution of malice anyway.
-Starke Hathaway (
talk) 14:54, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
It mostly focuses on Vivian James, the mascot some angry nerds use for gamergate. You can read through it here- if it's not useful as a source for this page, it could be useful on the Fine Young Capitalists page. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 10:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
Is Gjoni's portion considered due weight for the lead? I only ask because his portion seems minor in the paragraph, so that would indicate that it is undue in the lead. Sorry random thought that popped into my head while I was looking at the lead and trying to figure out a way to rewrite it for clarity and weight issues. Tivanir2 ( talk) 12:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
In response to a request at WP:ARCA, the Arbitration Committee is considering a motion to lift extended-confirmed protection on Talk:Gamergate controversy. Your comments are welcome at the amendment request. For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 01:13, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:
In May 2015 administrator Zad68 imposed extended confirmed protection of Talk:Gamergate controversy as a discretionary sanction in response to this AE request. The Arbitration Committee notes that Zad68 is currently inactive so the sanction cannot be modified without consensus or Committee action. Therefore the Committee lifts the discretionary sanction on Talk:Gamergate controversy (not the article) to allow the community to modify the protection level in accordance with the Wikipedia:Protection policy.
For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 00:59, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Or can we at least get a citation needed on the "Gamergate targeted" in the second paragraph - kinda seems a bit harsh to say [new concept/group of people under this named banner] immediately targeted individuals to start off with. Assuming wikipedia still to some degree has pretensions to neutrality on controversies, that is. Oathed ( talk) 14:47, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, the whole thing started with attacks on Quinn and everything from there on was pursuit of that or other women. ゼーロ ( talk) 20:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
This is coming from someone who doesn't care about Gamergate. The article is way too long and complicated to understand from a newcomer's perspective, the way that the article is structured is very confusing and not very encyclopedic in my opinion. I'm not trying to be biased but this article is just not very good. I know that the controversy surrounding the article may have been one of the factors for it's long length, but adding more to the article just fuels the controversy even more. Gamergate is becoming more irrelevant by the second and I feel it's time to either shorten the article or remove it altogether. DancingHaggis ( talk) 22:42, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Just chiming in to say I completely agree, but I am fully mindful of the difficulties with paring down the article. Thanks. Dumuzid ( talk) 20:20, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Would absolutely agree as far as the lede is concerned. I've made some suggestions for a shorter version previously, which didn't work out for various reasons, but I might take a look at it again. Artw ( talk) 00:46, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Eron Gjoni's side of the story be reported?
I tried to add Eron Gjoni's side of the story in edit 734887712, but it was quickly reverted by frequents editors of this article citing "need for concensus," which seems to be abuse of the concept of concensus. Concensus is noted to be needed for bold edits. I'm adding Gjoni's side of the story in a tiny manner. There is no controversy in that. Not noting his side of the story would infringe upon WP:BLP. Mr. Magoo ( talk) 11:22, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
should this be documented in the article?, then, if the article contains other opinions on Gjoni & his actions (and it does), the answer is clearly Yes. I note that the reversion discussed above also included concerns about WP:RS and WP:OR. The HeatStreet interview which formed the primary source basis for the original edit was written by a notable journalist in a publication owned by a reputable organisation. Reliability is also contextual (the operative question is "Does this source verify the content for which it is a reference?"); given that if the information included is firmly fixed in a context of attributed statements, not "fact", reliability hinges on whether we believe that the journalist or the publisher would have misrepresented the interview subject's statements. Given the reputations of the journalist & publisher, I do not consider that such is a sustainable position to take in this instance. If possible, I would like to better understand
Comment (summoned by bot): I have to agree with several observations already made above. First, it's typically not appropriate to launch an RfC, and thus consume a great deal of volunteer time, if even the most basic of efforts at discussion and consensus building on the matter have not been attempted. Then again, in this instance, with a topic of this profile, under discretionary sanctions, it's probable that this was never going to get solved without community involvement, so the rush to RfC can be overlooked and good faith presumed. What is more problematic is the way in which the RfC, once undertaken, was approached; that is to say, with very little concern for the requisite neutrality in the presentation of the basic query. Putting aside the issues here for a minute, I'd like to encourage Mr. Magoo to read the RfC guidelines before their next efforts at RfC and would like to advise him, with candor, that he will only predispose experienced editors to questioning the neutrality of his perspective by presenting the central issues in such a loaded and one-sided manner.
Now, those procedural issues addressed, I have to agree that this does seem to be essential a WP:Weight issue. I'm not sure if Gjoni's assertions should be excised entirely, but until such time as a more substantial portion of the considerable number of reliable sources we have on this topic give serious discussion to his qualifications of the events in question, then it is completely undue to to discuss them at any significant length. The truth is, I'm not sure that Gjoni's efforts to qualify his acts are at all encyclopaedically significant to be worth mentioning; as a consequence of how the controversy unfolded, we know exactly what he said, but his blog post was little more than the catalyst for the larger and more relevant events which the article is mainly concerned with.
In short, I'm not sure his motive is really important; what the sources overwhelmingly lean upon is how the comments were received, the cascade of controversial behaviour it set off online and the media furor and debate that resulted. We have only one source here discussing Gjoni's views, and that source, an interview which essentially serves as a platform for Gjoni himself to assert his perspectives on controversy, is essentially just a single primary source. That's not really selling the content as WP:DUE, not without a secondary source or three to help support these perspectives as relevant enough to bear mention when talking about the controversy broadly. Snow let's rap 12:40, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
People are considered reliable sources on their own opinions; even if you classify Gjoni's opinions about Gjoni as a primary source, you don't need to have a secondary source for someone's statements about himself to include them in an article that also makes statements about him. It is an exception to the rules about secondary sources. Also, the rules about taking human dignity into account would seem to require allowing statements by Gjoni to be included when discussing Gjoni. Ken Arromdee ( talk) 02:29, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Terribly sorry but if I could just go back to the beginning of this discussion and say that, everything else aside, this shouldn't have been reverted on these grounds. Other grounds could have been used, but "no consensus" is not valid grounds to make or undo an edit.
To explain, please read Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus" ( WP:DRNC) and be persuaded.
Instead, maybe find some other grounds to revert. Maybe the objections behind the lack of consensus.
In the future, anyone may revert any edit explicitly justified on no other grounds than "this doesn't have consensus" or "you have to get consensus before adding this" or "get consensus before making this edit", "No consensus!!!", and so on.
When doing so, all that is needed is to put " WP:DRNC" in the edit summary, and then edit may then be redone on some other grounds. Chrisrus ( talk) 16:35, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Just a note on relevant policy: "no consensus" is seen as the weakest form of argument against an edit (with limited exceptions) but there doesn't seem to be anything explicitly in policy that forbids it. The highly-regarded essay WP:BRD states "BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes. Don't invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else's work or for edit warring; instead, provide a reason that is based on policies, guidelines, or common sense." which would seem to indicate that the practice is frowned upon (an indication reinforced by longstanding social norms). To sum up, this type of reversion isn't specifically disallowed, but is generally seen as being poor form and a weak argument. For future reversions, it would be better to cite a policy-based argument or a reason why that particular edit detracts from the quality of the article. The Wordsmith Talk to me 22:32, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Can we WP:SNOW this or at least the RfC template? Rhoark ( talk) 14:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
About a year ago I raised the concern that the tone and weight of the most reliable sources were not being followed. That discussion led to the creation of a draft, which as many of you are already aware, is now complete. There have been some positive changes to the main article in the meantime, but I believe change is still necessary on several grounds:
Since the draft is a lot to digest at once, and the impetus revolves so much around top-level structure, let's begin with a discussion of that structure.
There are two modifications to this structure that are likely to be suggested. The first is to begin with the history of issues starting in 2012. I did not favor this as it delays introducing and defining the Gamergate movement, without which it is harder to explain how those issues related to the contemporary controversy. The other likely suggestion is that the section on harassment should immediately follow Quinn's section. To that I would re-iterate that harassment is discussed in every section, in terms of how it relates to the topic. To jump immediately into harassment would start with Sarkeesian, which would be awkward to do without describing her views. Likewise, the question of how responsible the movement is would necessitate defining it. In the end such changes would lead to something not very different from what I have already done.
If someone has a good idea though, they are from this moment free to enact it. I have copied the draft into Draft:Gamergate_controversy.
Rhoark ( talk) 04:48, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Various men and women across the spectrum of debate have been subjected to online harassment after presenting opinions on Gamergate.', and your reference to the organised effort to push prominent female voices from the industry as a '
cultural debate about [...] the inclusion of women in video gaming'. One wonders why you solicited feedback if you had no intent of changing what you've written. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 05:24, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
when I improved the RfC- 'rolling eyes emoticon'. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 05:46, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
::I just read the
Draft:Gamergate_controversy page, which I assumed was mostly written by you. Since I am not eligible to post on the Talk page, I'd like to submit my feedback here.
I finally had time to take a look. As I see it, there are issues, big issues. Some examples:
Now don't get me wrong, I think there are problems with the current article as well. We place too much focus on many individual events rather than telling a coherent summary. But the draft doesn't fix that problem. I hate to say it, but I doubt we'll be free of that particular issue until a good number of long-form or book-length pieces appear that we can use as a guide. Just my $0.02. Woodroar ( talk) 00:58, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Synthesizing the various points raised by Masem, Kingsindian, Olivier, and Jorm I've made a significant reorganization and reweighting of material, visible now on the draft. Rhoark ( talk) 16:49, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
If anyone's looking to contribute and doesn't know where to start, they might try integrating some of the new perspectives elicited by Clinton's speech today. [1] [2] There's obviously several claims about American politics, but a few things that might be added about feminist criticism or the Gamergate movement. Rhoark ( talk) 20:28, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
"The controversy was incited by accusations made in August 2014 against game developer Zoe Quinn that led to anonymous harassment against her"
Awesome victim blaming there, right in the lede. "Zoey's accusations started it and that's why she got harassed". She deserved, then, is what you're trying to say. In Wikipedia's voice.-- Jorm ( talk) 20:41, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
I've tagged the article as needing updates and for being unbalanced in presentation, as these are the main qualities by which the draft is an improvement. As I've said, these problems are surface symptoms of the article's disorganization. The present article does not have sections so much as coatracks. As a collection of opinions disconnected from their neighbors and hidden from contrasting opinions elsewhere in the article, relative prominence cannot be ascertained. It violates NPOV per se.
Some specific issues
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That's just a sampling of issues that were easy to identify and bullet-point. |
Overall this article is a wreck with respect to NPOV. Some people apparently consider this to be fine, for two main reasons I can tell:
Some would like to take these things incrementally, but it should be clear now that it's unworkable. Everything is so framed by inappropriate synthesis and irrelevant headings that any improvement would be a domino effect towards a new article. Well, I've written that article. It may not be perfect, but improvement does not preclude further improvement. I probably have some blind spots in my own POV, which is why people who are not happy with the draft need to get more involved instead of WP:STONEWALLING. It's time to start identifying what precise textual changes are needed in order to reach consensus it's an improvement on the article. Rhoark ( talk) 17:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
As soon as you start evaluating coverage as "negative" or "positive" and using that to weight it, you're clearly violating WP:NPOV
our requirement is to write an article that is primarily about the side with more weight behind it, structured primarily around that view
Sorry for the gamergate undo, DHeyward. It was just that your reasoning seemed to me to be based on a misapprehension, though I could be mistaken. You said that there had been a legal decision which found to the contrary of the passage at issue. I don't believe there is one. The major legal fallout of which I am aware was Mr. Gjoni's first amendment challenge to the order preventing him from posting "anything" about Ms. Quinn. That was ultimately declared moot as she voluntarily dismissed the order during the pendency of the appeal [3]. Even within that challenge, the real question was the power of the trial judge rather than the underlying facts. If you think there is a different case or some such that is as you describe, bring it to my attention and I will self-revert. Thanks. Dumuzid ( talk) 05:27, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Quinn acknowledged that Gjoni was not "directing" the third parties to harass her, but she alleged that he nevertheless was distributing the information online in a manner that he knew would have that effect (e.g., by specifically targeting the information to groups or people that he knew were already hostile to Quinn). Gjoni denied any conscious effort to harm Quinn, and asserted a First Amendment right to comment about her.". I'd like to point out 'nevertheless was distributing the information online in a manner he knew would have that effect'. We leave matters like this to reliable, qualified journalists to decide on, not Wikipedia editors reading through primary sources. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 07:29, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, that's rather byzantine. I think the appeal to WP:BLPCRIME is misguided here and at best an unhelpful distraction. Personally I think the quote is unnecessarily sensationalist. There have been suggestions for a rewrite above that I think handle it much better then the current wording. — Strongjam ( talk) 16:39, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Dear editors: In the event that you discover what you believe to be a clear BLP violation, rather than simply constantly reverting and filibustering, consider bringing it up on WP:BLPN. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 11:26, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
As I pointed out above, there are two opposed policies here. One is that text which has been reasonably stable is assumed to have consensus ( WP:EDITCONSENSUS). The other is WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE. I am a bit fuzzy here, but I believe the former is technically right since otherwise anything dealing with any BLP could be theoretically challenged again and again (I believe this could be called "sealioning").
Having said that, I pointed out above that this text was added last December, after a similar text by the same reporter was removed on WP:BLP grounds. If I had known about the addition then, I would have opposed it. PeterTheFourth said above that this has been discussed "ad infinitum". I am not sure what they mean, because I can't find any discussion of it on the talkpage, either before or since. The only discussion I found - which was not strictly about this text - was an inconclusive RfC started by Mr. Magoo (which was archived recently without anybody closing it). Now, one can technically take refuge in WP:CONSENSUS: since nobody challenged it back in December, it has consensus. But I don't think it is in the spirit of the policy.
I asked people a simple question which nobody has answered. If some reporter had made a highly inflammatory claim about Sarkeesian, replicated nowhere else and denied by Sarkeesian, would you insert the quote into the article without giving Sarkeesian's response? It behooves us to be conservative in our claims involving WP:BLP. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:12, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Quick question: is there anyone other than PTF, Artw, and Binksternet who supports inclusion of the quote in its current form? I believe everyone else who has edited this passage or otherwise commented on it expressed support for removing or modifying it. -Starke Hathaway ( talk) 14:38, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
"PTF, Artw, and Binksternet don't count" is not to my knowledge a Wikipedia policy.Thank goodness no one has said such a thing! But when assessing what, if any, consensus exists I find it is often useful to know what positions there are and who supports them. -Starke Hathaway ( talk) 18:48, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Ask and ye shall receive. -Starke Hathaway ( talk) 19:13, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
A Request for Comment about this draft has been made at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gamergate draft. Rhoark ( talk) 03:11, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
"Some journalists have been reluctant to revisit the controversy when new developments might validate the Gamergate movement."This rests mainly on the source text, "Muddled identity aside, mainstream observers have little inclination to revisit the issue. A number of top journalists in the field declined to speak to CJR on the record because they feared validating Gamergate as something more than a collection of trolls." Combining these two sentences is not a synthesis but a paraphrase. Summarization can reach across not just sentences but whole works, in which case the guiding policy is
"A summary of extensive discussion should reflect the conclusions of the source."The broader relevant source text is:
“ | Gamergate believers see themselves as consumer watchdogs of a games press that’s too cozy with the industry it covers; many posting under the tag appear to be soldiers in a culture war that extends far offline. Mainstream journalists ignored or declined to join in SPJ’s recent outreach, trying to avoid the anonymity-fueled invective that inevitably follows Gamergate-related discussions. The most sincere of the hashtag activists seek legitimacy in those same mainstream eyes. And to many of them, SPJ, an organization with an ethics code and professional-sounding name, makes for an ideal arbitrator to re-litigate what they compare to original sin: the media labeling Gamergate as a movement of hate.
SPJ’s goal in this endeavor is to essentially empower moderate elements within Gamergate—to target those who really care about ethics in gaming journalism. But if reckoning with Gamergate’s origin story is a prerequisite for that goal, as Slate columnist David Auerbach argues, it may very well be impossible. “I think that there is next to zero interest among the press in establishing the facts around Gamergate, and quite a lot of pressure *against* establishing a factual record,” Auerbach writes in an email. |
” |
“ | It’s unclear whether engaging Gamergate will help SPJ engage the gaming community more broadly. Many mainstream journalists and academics argue that the organization is focusing not on a devoted movement with a potentially dangerous fringe, but on a group that is itself a potentially dangerous fringe.
“Some of it is really focused on reforming game journalism,” says Mia Consalvo, a Concordia University professor and president of the Digital Games Research Association. “Some are very focused on their image in the mainstream media. And then some are very angry with academics, with people like me, who they view as trying to inject feminist critiques into gaming culture.” Muddled identity aside, mainstream observers have little inclination to revisit the issue. A number of top journalists in the field declined to speak to CJR on the record because they feared validating Gamergate as something more than a collection of trolls. One described the hashtag not as a movement with goals, but rather as a platform “used by anyone who wants to say something.” Another feared it would inject false equivalency into the debate: “There is no Gamergate and anti-Gamergate,” he says. “That’s like saying people who don’t collect postage stamps are anti-postage stamps.” |
” |
The Society of Professional Journalists put together a few events with some Gamergate supporters, focusing on ethical issues in journalism. However, most mainstream journalists declined to participate: they viewed Gamergate as a collection of trolls and feared that engaging with Gamergate would validate them.Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 18:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Others such as Nathaniel Givens [1] or Ben Southwood [2] [3] say the controversy represents a schism within the political left.Strongjam pointed out what might be considered doubtful language in "This makes me think that gamergate might be best characterised as a case of leftist infighting". I think this is just a bit of British elocution though. It is the main idea of the piece, and he points out that it concords with things he said in the earlier piece. Rhoark ( talk) 18:50, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
References |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
References
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I have removed the characterization by Zachary Jason of Gjoni's intent in posting the account According to Zachary Jason of Boston magazine, Gjoni deliberately crafted the post to resonate with members of the gaming community, "some of whom he already knew were passionately predisposed to attacking women in the industry".
The reasons are as follows:
From the start, it seems, Gjoni wanted to make certain that his blog about Quinn would connect with a large base of people in the gaming community, some of whom he already knew were passionately predisposed to attacking women in the industry.Some point after the previous statement was removed, this was added, I don't know why.
full quote |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Will one quote a negative opinion of intent by one random reporter of some random living person, say Sarkeesian, which is denied by Sarkeesian, not replicated anywhere else, is manifestly irrelevant and not even give Sarkeesian's response? The question answers itself.
Reading the article, it's pretty clear that it's a hatchet job. Even back then, Gjoni wrote a couple of posts about his viewpoint on the Boston Mag article. I have no problems with hatchet jobs in general, they are one of the most enjoyable and informative formats to read. But one doesn't add such content willy-nilly into an encyclopedia. As far as I can see, this quote by Zachary Jason was added here, a few days after the earlier quote about "maximum pain and harm" by the same reporter was removed, after talk page discussion. There was no discussion on the talkpage before adding the content, and no reference to why the old quote was removed. The edit summary was unclear. There was a flurry of edits during that time: if it had been my practice to watch the page like a hawk, or if I had known about it then, I would have objected, for the same reasons as now. Now, we can take the position that this quote has consensus because nobody challenged it, and we will be technically right. From my perspective, it is in the article because nobody noticed it back then. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 03:25, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
I go back and forth on whether this quote helps the article, but my current thinking is somewhat different. Why not remove Gjoni from the article entirely? He's not otherwise notable (no offense to him, of course), and I think just describing him once generically as "an ex-boyfriend" or "former paramour" or some such would have a salutary effect on the article, and protect privacy at the same time. I think it would look something like this:
In August 2014, a former boyfriend of Quinn's published the "Zoe Post", a 9,425-word blog post that quoted from personal chat logs, emails, and text messages to describe their relationship. The post, described as "a rambling online essay" in The New York Times,[7] complained, among other things, that Quinn entered a romantic relationship with Nathan Grayson, a journalist for the Gawker Media video game website Kotaku. The post was linked on 4chan, where some erroneously claimed the relationship had induced Grayson to publish a favorable review of Depression Quest. Grayson had never reviewed Quinn's games and Grayson's only article for Kotaku mentioning her was published before their relationship began.[12][13][14][15]
After the blog post, Quinn and her family were subjected to a virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign.[16][17][18] The people behind this campaign initially referred to it as the "quinnspiracy", but adopted the Twitter hashtag "Gamergate" after it was coined by actor Adam Baldwin near the end of August.[18][19][20][21] Baldwin has described Gamergate as a backlash against political correctness, saying it has started a discussion "about culture, about ethics, and about freedom".[22][23] Journalists who did not cover the examination into Quinn's private life were accused of conspiracy, and a blacklist circulated by Gamergate supporters.[24] The accusations and harassment were coordinated by 4chan users over Internet Relay Chat (IRC), spreading rapidly over imageboards and forums like 4chan and Reddit.[9][18][25][26]
Feel free to tell me that I'm wrong and that my opinions are destroying Wikipedia. Thanks. Dumuzid ( talk) 13:36, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Gjoni later updated the blog post to acknowledge this. The "acknowledge" should be "clarify", by the way - the source says nothing about acknowledging. I think the last sentence is useful, but I am willing to be persuaded otherwise. However, I don't think the "paraphrasing" is materially any different from direct quoting; if anything it is worse. The quote, taken literally, is meaningless. If, for the sake of argument, we agree that the clauses: "Gjoni crafted the post to resonate with gamers" and "some gamers harass women" are both true, it does not follow that "Gjoni crafted the post to encourage harassment". In the article, the latter conclusion is attributed to Arthur Chu and Jesse Singal, with Gjoni, his female dev friends and mother quoted for balance. I again return to my original point: Gjoni's intent is irrelevant. Whether he intended harassment or not, it occurred. Almost all sources don't speculate about his intent, for this reason. One can also quote the proverb: "the road to hell is paved with the best intentions", so even if his intentions were good, it doesn't mean anything. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:24, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
- "He was keenly aware of attracting an impressionable readership. “If I can target people who are in the mood to read stories about exes and horrible breakups,” he says now, “I will have an audience.”"
- "One of the keys to how Gjoni justified the cruelty of “The Zoe Post” to its intended audience was his claim that Quinn slept with five men during and after their brief romance."
"Despite its length, Gjoni’s post amounts to little more than the kind of nasty, post-breakup gripes spurned partners lament about with close friends. But thanks to a number of key factors, his allegations have turned into a hot-button issue for a certain sector of the gaming community, which has twisted Gjoni’s dirty laundry into a narrative of industry corruption—a tale that is not based on provable fact." and "Gjoni’s post never makes either allegation."
Magoo - Repeatedly misrepresenting the outcome of an RfC here and in other places really isn't helping your case, you should probably stop doing that. As for BLPCRIME, that does not seem to be applicable. I'm not seeing a BLP case for your removal of content either, perhaps you should take that to the relevant board? Artw ( talk) 19:01, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
This was discussed before ad infinitum, and I'm disappointed to see the same well being dredged. It's not a rumour simply because such a thing is asserted- it's the conclusion of a qualified reporter who is unrelated to the harassment campaign or its targets. That is, it's from a perfectly reliable secondary source. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 22:25, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
How about this? Mortensen says,
As far as it is possible to tell, GG started as a harassment campaign aimed at developer Zoe Quinn, with her previous boyfriend Eron Gjoni as the initiator for the first accusations against her. Gjoni was drumming up sympathy for himself, justifying his anger through telling stories about Quinn in comments (later deleted) at forums Something Awful and Penny Arcade (2014c). It was discussed on the Internet Relay Chat (IRC) channel #burgersandfries (Unknown, 2014c), and while the available chat log has been disputed, it has so far not been disproved. According to this chat log Gjoni also posted on 4chan, and the stories he had been telling in his blog The Zoe Post (2014a) were refined and used to fuel the anger of members of these different forums.
Rhoark ( talk) 01:28, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Binksternet's
argument for retaining the Boston Mag quote on the basis that the article in which it appears was cited in Continuum is a non-starter. The statement in the Continuum article for which Boston Mag is cited is After accumulating
16 gigabytes of abuse (Jason 2015)
. Nothing about Gjoni's intent, and in any event a mere citation wouldn't strengthen the sourcing for that attribution of malice anyway.
-Starke Hathaway (
talk) 14:54, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
It mostly focuses on Vivian James, the mascot some angry nerds use for gamergate. You can read through it here- if it's not useful as a source for this page, it could be useful on the Fine Young Capitalists page. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 10:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
Is Gjoni's portion considered due weight for the lead? I only ask because his portion seems minor in the paragraph, so that would indicate that it is undue in the lead. Sorry random thought that popped into my head while I was looking at the lead and trying to figure out a way to rewrite it for clarity and weight issues. Tivanir2 ( talk) 12:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
In response to a request at WP:ARCA, the Arbitration Committee is considering a motion to lift extended-confirmed protection on Talk:Gamergate controversy. Your comments are welcome at the amendment request. For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 01:13, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:
In May 2015 administrator Zad68 imposed extended confirmed protection of Talk:Gamergate controversy as a discretionary sanction in response to this AE request. The Arbitration Committee notes that Zad68 is currently inactive so the sanction cannot be modified without consensus or Committee action. Therefore the Committee lifts the discretionary sanction on Talk:Gamergate controversy (not the article) to allow the community to modify the protection level in accordance with the Wikipedia:Protection policy.
For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 00:59, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Or can we at least get a citation needed on the "Gamergate targeted" in the second paragraph - kinda seems a bit harsh to say [new concept/group of people under this named banner] immediately targeted individuals to start off with. Assuming wikipedia still to some degree has pretensions to neutrality on controversies, that is. Oathed ( talk) 14:47, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, the whole thing started with attacks on Quinn and everything from there on was pursuit of that or other women. ゼーロ ( talk) 20:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
This is coming from someone who doesn't care about Gamergate. The article is way too long and complicated to understand from a newcomer's perspective, the way that the article is structured is very confusing and not very encyclopedic in my opinion. I'm not trying to be biased but this article is just not very good. I know that the controversy surrounding the article may have been one of the factors for it's long length, but adding more to the article just fuels the controversy even more. Gamergate is becoming more irrelevant by the second and I feel it's time to either shorten the article or remove it altogether. DancingHaggis ( talk) 22:42, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Just chiming in to say I completely agree, but I am fully mindful of the difficulties with paring down the article. Thanks. Dumuzid ( talk) 20:20, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Would absolutely agree as far as the lede is concerned. I've made some suggestions for a shorter version previously, which didn't work out for various reasons, but I might take a look at it again. Artw ( talk) 00:46, 4 November 2016 (UTC)