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Well I have aligned the cutesy boxes to center as per request. :) -- Cat out 08:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been looking this article over, and while I think it can meet GA status, I've got a few things I'd like to address before that happens. The biggest issue regards the references section, and the second issue regards jargon.
The references section is huge. This is a good thing, but large references sections need to be carefully managed. As it stands, the section is almost unusably large. There is no way to glance at it and see what the primary references are, and the frequent use of endnotes (comments) makes it hard to identify sources.
Minamoto Ienaga was apparently detached from being Go-Toba's personal secretary to instead serve as the secretary for the compilation committee; his and Teika's diaries have survived, affording a unprecedently good view of the inner workings of how an imperial anthology was created) were chosen to compile the Shin Kokinshū in the eleventh month of 1201 ( Brower 1972, p. 18).
As if the honor of helping to compile the Shin Kokinshū and of having a remarkable 46 [1] of his poems (including three from the Shoji hyakushu) included were not enough, Teika would later be appointed in 1232 by the Retired Emperor Go-Horikawa to compile - by himself - the ninth Imperial Anthology, the Shin chokusenshu (c. 1235; "New Imperial Collection") ( Brower 1972, p. 46). Teika was the first person to have ever been a compiler of two Imperial anthologies.
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |Issue=
(
help)The disadvantage of Harvard style is that it adds more stuff in the text. However, it allows people to quickly see what info came from Brower as opposed to any other source. When one source is used over and over, it is easier to remember a name, than it is to remember a number.
I know it seems like it would be a complex change, but I'd give you a hand with it if thats a direction you want to go.
The other issue with the article is a combination of jargon, and tone. In the example paragraph above, we see, "As if the honor of helping ... wasn't enough." The article takes a sort of 'proud' stance. It sounds like a professor talking (which is good in many ways, but adds 'figures of speech' that aren't necessary when you aren't addressing students). I'd rewrite that paragraph like this:
In addition to receiving the honor of compiling the Shin Kokinshū and of having a remarkable 46 of his poems (including three from the Shoji hyakushu) included, Teika would later be appointed in 1232 by the Retired Emperor Go-Horikawa to compile the ninth Imperial Anthology, the Shin chokusenshu (c. 1235; "New Imperial Collection"). Teika was the first person to have been a compiler of two Imperial anthologies.
In general, only slight changes in tone would be necessary. Also, look for unneeded words and phrases. The exercises here might help: User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a.
If you are willing to put some effort into these things, I'd be happy to help out. This is an impressive big of work, and I'd like to see it meet the GA qualifications. Let me know if you need clarification. Phidauex 18:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and added a separate References section with just a list of the references, for easy viewing. They are in the Harvard template format so that transitioning to a Harvard-style referencing will be easier, should it be deemed necessary. Phidauex 20:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The article spent a week on hold (where IMO it shouldn't have been anyway) and the required improvements have not been made (the "Notes" section is grotesquely massive), and so it is automatically failed. Moreschi 12:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Another way to handle the references, if you don't like full Harvard, and I don't, would be to add
to the reference list, and make the present footnote 7 simply <ref>Keene, p.410</ref>; at this point you would discover that footnotes 7 and 8 are the same footnote. There is a way to unite them in WP:FOOT, if you want. This means listing bibliographic details once. JCScaliger 01:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The dates given are 1139-1202. Is this correct? It makes for an odd family to have a foster-brother 33 years older than yourself; and a man who lived to 63 does not have his career cut tragically short unless some non-fatal total disaster happened to him. If so, what? JCScaliger 16:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Did Teika's eldest brother die young? If so, when? JCScaliger 16:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand this paragraph;
Please explain; what happened? who intrigued and with whom? JCScaliger 17:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Article has been relisted by a two to four vote, (I counted the two people up above who said it should be failed) archived results here: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 5 Homestarmy 13:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
A bot has added class=GA to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a good article. If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, BOT Giggabot ( talk) 05:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Start GA reassessment. Jezhotwells ( talk) 20:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Just looking at this page for other reasons (see my last edit) and saw this. While in this case it probably wasn't "wrong", "References are to print sources, assume good faith" is a terrible interpretation of the policy. AGF is for user behaviour -- it does not mean we assume all sources are reliable, representative of up-to-date scholarship, and accurately represented. I very much worry about the precedent set by "reassessments" (and "assessments") like the above... Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 11:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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Numerous uncited sections. I also think the amount and length of block quotes should be reduced. Z1720 ( talk) 15:06, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Fujiwara no Teika article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Fujiwara no Teika was one of the Language and literature good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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Well I have aligned the cutesy boxes to center as per request. :) -- Cat out 08:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been looking this article over, and while I think it can meet GA status, I've got a few things I'd like to address before that happens. The biggest issue regards the references section, and the second issue regards jargon.
The references section is huge. This is a good thing, but large references sections need to be carefully managed. As it stands, the section is almost unusably large. There is no way to glance at it and see what the primary references are, and the frequent use of endnotes (comments) makes it hard to identify sources.
Minamoto Ienaga was apparently detached from being Go-Toba's personal secretary to instead serve as the secretary for the compilation committee; his and Teika's diaries have survived, affording a unprecedently good view of the inner workings of how an imperial anthology was created) were chosen to compile the Shin Kokinshū in the eleventh month of 1201 ( Brower 1972, p. 18).
As if the honor of helping to compile the Shin Kokinshū and of having a remarkable 46 [1] of his poems (including three from the Shoji hyakushu) included were not enough, Teika would later be appointed in 1232 by the Retired Emperor Go-Horikawa to compile - by himself - the ninth Imperial Anthology, the Shin chokusenshu (c. 1235; "New Imperial Collection") ( Brower 1972, p. 46). Teika was the first person to have ever been a compiler of two Imperial anthologies.
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |Issue=
(
help)The disadvantage of Harvard style is that it adds more stuff in the text. However, it allows people to quickly see what info came from Brower as opposed to any other source. When one source is used over and over, it is easier to remember a name, than it is to remember a number.
I know it seems like it would be a complex change, but I'd give you a hand with it if thats a direction you want to go.
The other issue with the article is a combination of jargon, and tone. In the example paragraph above, we see, "As if the honor of helping ... wasn't enough." The article takes a sort of 'proud' stance. It sounds like a professor talking (which is good in many ways, but adds 'figures of speech' that aren't necessary when you aren't addressing students). I'd rewrite that paragraph like this:
In addition to receiving the honor of compiling the Shin Kokinshū and of having a remarkable 46 of his poems (including three from the Shoji hyakushu) included, Teika would later be appointed in 1232 by the Retired Emperor Go-Horikawa to compile the ninth Imperial Anthology, the Shin chokusenshu (c. 1235; "New Imperial Collection"). Teika was the first person to have been a compiler of two Imperial anthologies.
In general, only slight changes in tone would be necessary. Also, look for unneeded words and phrases. The exercises here might help: User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a.
If you are willing to put some effort into these things, I'd be happy to help out. This is an impressive big of work, and I'd like to see it meet the GA qualifications. Let me know if you need clarification. Phidauex 18:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and added a separate References section with just a list of the references, for easy viewing. They are in the Harvard template format so that transitioning to a Harvard-style referencing will be easier, should it be deemed necessary. Phidauex 20:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The article spent a week on hold (where IMO it shouldn't have been anyway) and the required improvements have not been made (the "Notes" section is grotesquely massive), and so it is automatically failed. Moreschi 12:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Another way to handle the references, if you don't like full Harvard, and I don't, would be to add
to the reference list, and make the present footnote 7 simply <ref>Keene, p.410</ref>; at this point you would discover that footnotes 7 and 8 are the same footnote. There is a way to unite them in WP:FOOT, if you want. This means listing bibliographic details once. JCScaliger 01:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The dates given are 1139-1202. Is this correct? It makes for an odd family to have a foster-brother 33 years older than yourself; and a man who lived to 63 does not have his career cut tragically short unless some non-fatal total disaster happened to him. If so, what? JCScaliger 16:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Did Teika's eldest brother die young? If so, when? JCScaliger 16:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand this paragraph;
Please explain; what happened? who intrigued and with whom? JCScaliger 17:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Article has been relisted by a two to four vote, (I counted the two people up above who said it should be failed) archived results here: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 5 Homestarmy 13:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
A bot has added class=GA to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a good article. If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, BOT Giggabot ( talk) 05:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Start GA reassessment. Jezhotwells ( talk) 20:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Just looking at this page for other reasons (see my last edit) and saw this. While in this case it probably wasn't "wrong", "References are to print sources, assume good faith" is a terrible interpretation of the policy. AGF is for user behaviour -- it does not mean we assume all sources are reliable, representative of up-to-date scholarship, and accurately represented. I very much worry about the precedent set by "reassessments" (and "assessments") like the above... Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 11:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Numerous uncited sections. I also think the amount and length of block quotes should be reduced. Z1720 ( talk) 15:06, 17 September 2023 (UTC)