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On 7 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Franz, Duke of Bavaria to Franz von Bayern. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I thought that titles are recognised in German law, being stated on birth certificates.
I believe he does use the titles of Bavaria, but as for the title of "King Francis II of England, Scotland, France, and Ireland" he does not. Espeically that of France since i believe, the current monarchs of the United Kingdom droped that title. As it was a moot title anyway since France was a republic at the time they droped it.
First of all: titles of nobility in Germany are not illegal, they simply do not exist. Instead, former titles are part of the family surname. The family surname consists of the former title that was awarded to each member of the noble family (thus, Prinz/ prince, not Herzog/ duke or König/ king). That was the rule developed by laws passed in each German state after the revolution (This is an example of how these laws looked like: [1]). So the family name of the Wittenbachs was Prinz von Bayern. Legally, it is next to impossible to change that family name, as can be seen on the argument I put down here. So Franz' surname still is Prinz von Bayern. Now one may call him Herzog or Duke or Symbol or whatever, but one has to make a choice: either use his real name, which is Prinz von Bayern, or use an alias under which he is known, which could be Duke of Bavaria (in English on English WP), but not Herzog von Bayern. And by the way, German WP calls him Prinz von Bayern, because by all acounts of verifiability that is his real name, and people that are interested in him recognise him under this name. Yet I am afraid I fight a lost cause here, simply because most people that know a person such as Franz Prinz von Bayern are over-monarchistic. (I have nothing against monarchy in principle, I just don't believe in calling people by fantasy names if these names give a wrong impression about this person's status). Blur4760 23:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
And regarding Albrecht: now that's a tough one: Albrecht either still was a duke, because he exceptionally retained the title after the revolution, a possibility given in some state laws for people holding titles at the moment of the revolution (in that case write Duke of Bavaria, which would not be a title of nobility, but rather a personal title to humour the person), or use the family name, which is of course Prinz von Bayern. Blur4760 00:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Blur4760 is right. Of course, there are indeed people that are officially named "Herzog von Something " (Württemberg, e.g.) in today's Germany. That is because that title was not one that could only be achieved by being a firstborn (i. e. not a „primogenitur“ title) son/daughter. Those have been declared illegal, and are only used by the former nobles as a private hobby, as are all the "styles" like "Ihre Königliche Hoheit" (HRH). In the Wittelsbach family, the Herzog title (dukedom) was a primogenitur title, hence it was officially abandoned in legal documents, and the offical surname of the Wittelsbach family is "Prinz von Bayern", or "Prinzessin von Bayern" (female forms are allowed, I guess because "Franziska Prinz von Bayern" would look just a bit too stupid). If government members and other public persons use "Herzog von Bayern", it is because they are a) unaware of the legal situation or b) think they are being polite, or probably rather c) because they secretely like the idea of still having a nobility in Germany. Other examples of noblemen named incorrectly and illegally much throughout the German political life and, sadly, press, are "Fürstin Gloria von Thurn und Taxis" (right: "Gloria Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis"), "Fürst Georg von Waldburg-Zeil" (right: "Georg Graf von Waldburg-Zeil"). As to the Baden family, I am not so sure, since "Markgraf" seems not to have been a primogenitur title in the grandducal family. Hence "Markgraf Maximilian von Baden" may even use kind of a right name (relly correct would be "Maximilian Markgraf von Baden", of course). In any case, his son Bernhard, who calls himself "Erbprinz", is either "Bernhard Markgraf von Baden" (if the name is official), or "Bernhard Prinz von Baden" - then his father, the so-called margrave, would also be "Maximilian Prinz von Baden"). Why "NOR" is respected more than factual accuracy in en.wikipedia, remains a secret to me. It's one of the numerous reasons I dislike this project, as opposed to many other projects in the Wikimedia family that I contribute a lot to. -- AndreasPraefcke 12:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Several points:
Certain busybodies (who apparently do not appreciate that aforementioned claims of Jacobites, as well as the Wittelsbach inheritance & tradition, are a sufficient load) also attempt to create Franz a claimant to the long defunct kingdoms of Cyprus and Jerusalem, as he descends from their kings, although he is neither the heir-general nor the heir-male to that line of succession. His claim would come from the same Savoy source as the Jacobite succession. However, since the heir-general line of Cyprus etc diverted from Savoy in 1499 and passed finally to the Prince of Ligne de La Tremoille, and the heir-male is the present head of House of Savoy, tho assign Franz that claim is untenable. 62.78.104.45 09:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"In October 1944, when Germany occupied Hungary, the Wittelsbachs were arrested and imprisoned in the concentration camp at Oranienburg.' This statement was switched to "March 1944" by an anon. editor with a checkered career. Can anyone verify the actual date? -- Wetman 06:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Today, somebody changed the image description to say that Franz is "the Jacobite heir to the throne of the United Kingdom, but does not assert his claim" (it previously said "heir to the throne of England"). There is no Jacobite throne of the United Kingdom (since Jacobites believe in separate thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland). Since Franz's Jacobite connection is not mentioned in the opening paragraph, it seems inappropriate to highlight it in the description of the image. Noel S McFerran 12:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
This may be a very silly question, but it does not mention his religion? Is he Catholic? I think this is important to the article, especially in regard to the "Wittelsbach Dynasty today" part and Greek Orthodox. - Animagentile ( talk) 06:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
If the man makes no such claim, is he not a pretender?
ThisMunkey (
talk)
10:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The english wikipedia article states "In 1997, after the death of his father, he changed his surname to Herzog von Bayern (English: Duke of Bavaria)" but the German article does not. I have asked for sources here under "Aktuelle bürgerlicher Name? Quelle?". The english sources are a a Usenet message from alt.royalty but with no source, so a more verifiable source would be nice. Note I am not looking for discussion on what title is used, or what the media call him, only on whether there was a civil name change in 1997 and if so, a source. An exact quote (in German) from the second source "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Band 141, Fürstliche Häuser Band XVIII. Limburg an der Lahn: C. A. Starke, 2007, page 2" that makes it clear the name change was a civil one would also be good. - 84user ( talk) 16:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone clarify when his parents marriage was recognised as dynastic, Les Maisons Impériales et Royales d'Europe says 18 May 1949, Les maisons royales et souveraines d'Europe says 1945. - dwc lr ( talk) 20:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello, can anyone tell me if I am right if I suggest that he could theoretically claim the trone of Navarre and if so why does this claim not appear ? I sincerely do not know if I am right, however, what I know is that, unlike the French trone, the trone of Navarre was inherited by women. King Henry III of Navarre (Henri IV of France) received it from his mother Jonana II de Labrit (French "Jeanne d'Albret", Queen of Navarre). In 1620 Navarre (the title only, since the main part of the territory was taken by Aragon's army and then ocupied by Spain untill today) was integrated within the French Kingdom. However this does not change the rule that women inherit and rule in the Navarre Kingdom.
The first borns within the Bourbon-Navarre house after Henry IV are Louis XIII, Louis XIV and Louis XV ; however, Louis XV first born child was Princess Louise-Élisabeth of France and the Duke of Bavaria is her first born descendent. Is that right ?
If you happen to have the answer, please respond to my occitan page.
Why should he be styled Francis II if he were King of Great Britain, Ireland & France ?
There has never been a Francis I in Great Britain & Ireland, hence he could be Francis I.
And there has been a Francis II in France already, so if he were King of France he would be Francis III. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.108.198.80 ( talk) 14:30, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Hopefully someone can find some reliable sources. This was a link [4] but not used as a source, but see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 82#Jacobite publications and organisations. Dougweller ( talk) 17:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
One of the links at the end of the article is LGBT Royaly, and he is in the lst of LGBT Royalty here, but a word search found nothing about it in the article. Shouldn't ther be some mention at least, or a citation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.13.238.203 ( talk) 02:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I believe that there is not source to believe he is gay — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2806:106E:C:D74F:14A9:4E34:C2B7:654A ( talk) 19:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't think it is accurate or neutral to refer to this person as "Franz, Duke of Bavaria". The German WP calls him "Franz von Bayern", this article should be called "Franz of Bavaria'. He is not a Duke. Definitely there should not be that comma in the title of this article "Franz, Duke of Bavaria", if his name is used that way it should be "Franz Duke of Bavaria", peoples' names don't have commas in them but I think he should not be called a "Duke" at all, it is misleading, not everyone is going to read the whole article and realise that it is not a title but the way members of old aristocratic families are allowed to legally change their names. And the section "Titles and styles" should be deleted, he does not have any titles or styles any more than your dentist or the cleaning lady, they were all abolished, everyone would have some abolished title if we went back far enough. Look at the German article, it does not list his "styles and titles", in fact it says "Der Titel „Herzog von Bayern, Franken und in Schwaben, Pfalzgraf bei Rhein“[5] wird noch traditionell verwendet, entspricht jedoch nicht dem amtlichen Namen. Das dem Namen vorangestellte Prädikat „Königliche Hoheit (K.H.)“ bzw. „Seine Königliche Hoheit (S.K.H.)“ wird ebenfalls noch im gesellschaftlichen Umfeld verwendet, ist jedoch ebenso eine reine Höflichkeitsform ohne rechtliche Relevanz" which more or less means "people call him "royal highness" to his face just to be nice but it has no meaning". Also the German article does not have a box with "Bavarian Royal Family", there is not a Bavarian Royal Family and has not been one for nearly a hundred years. All of this is just snobs' fantasy, why in the world is the English WP perpetuating an idea that there are still Germans with royal titles more than the German WP? It would be in line with WP policy if I were to be bold, move the article to "Franz of Bavaria", delete all that piffle about living German people who are royal highnesses, but for right now I will just tag the article and wait a few days to see if there are any comments. Smeat75 ( talk) 23:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved Armbrust The Homunculus 23:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Franz, Duke of Bavaria → Franz of Bavaria – This person is not a Duke although the page name makes it look like he is. "Duke of Bavaria" is just a translation of his last name. The German WP calls him Franz von Bayern, a translation of which would be a more neutral title. Smeat75 ( talk) 05:27, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
The tags I put on this article because of the name have been restored by an admin but I also strongly dispute that infobox labelled "Bavarian royal family" (there is no such thing) with a list of phoney royal and serene and imperial highnesses (all those titles were abolished in 1919). I changed the template to "House of Wittelsbach" and took out all the false honorific prefixes, it was reverted, I tagged the template itself, the tag was taken out because it "makes a mess" and I was being disruptive. So I am going to tag every article that infobox with its list of what seem to me falsehoods appears in as disputed for accuracy and neutrality. Smeat75 ( talk) 14:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
An obscure law? It is far from that. And if I saw Emperor Norton being referred to on WP as "His Imperial and Royal Majesty" or Queen Latifah as "HM" I would certainly dispute that. My personal opinion does not matter, Franz is not a duke, according to the above three reliable sources out of hundreds I could cite, those titles were all abolished. Smeat75 ( talk) 21:08, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
The section on Duke Franz' birthday party included the mention of the Minister-President of Bavaria, Horst Seehofer, "(formerly President of the German Bundesrat)". Aside from the fact that this is but a side note, I do not think it is relevant that Seehofer was President of the German Bundesrat. As the Bundesrat consists of the governments of the Federal States, Seehofer held the presidency of the chamber ex officio as Minister-President of Bavaria. While the office is officially elected, there is an agreement that the heads of Federal States succeed each other in the office according to their state's rank in inhabitants. His holding the office as such is not a personal achievement but a product of it being Bavaria's turn to hold the office and he happening to be the Minister-President at the time. As the text of the article notes Seehofer "formerly" held the office, it is doubly irrelevant for the article at issue, and I'm thus eliminating the remark. -- 95.90.54.245 ( talk) 12:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Can one be heir-general to a non-ancestor? Unfortunately Heir-general redirects to an article that does not use the term, let alone define it. This sentence previously named Charles I (an ancestor) rather than James II.
Is the prefix co– there because in English common law there is no seniority between sisters? That principle has never been applied to the throne (though it seems 1952 was the first time it could be), nor to Scottish peerages. — Tamfang ( talk) 18:52, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
There's no other references to Othonists on Wikipedia. At the very least a redlink should be provided for this word.
1.127.106.104 ( talk) 16:17, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
NOT a criticism, just a thought... and not specifically directed at this article except that it's what I happened to be reading today... it seems inappropriate to me for an encyclopedia to list a person under a title of nobility connected to a realm that ceased to exist fifteen years before he was born, or at least to do so in a way that looks as if the individual is the current holder of a legitimate office. I am prejudiced in that I find the concept of hereditary nobility itself to be offensive. But while there is indeed an extant and nearly-universally recognized political entity that recognizes Henry Charles Albert David as "the Duke of Sussex," Franz's title is largely a thing of fantasy, little more grounded in current reality than Richard Booth's claim to be "King of Hay". PurpleChez ( talk) 20:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Shouldn’t it be said in his info box that he was born in Munich, Nazi Germany? Jimmyy68 ( talk) 01:06, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
"Franz is a direct descendant of the House of Stuart." This is a meaningless expression. Yes he is a descendant of the House of Stuart, but then so are millions of other people, including nearly all the royal families of Europe. Does it mean he is descended from a Stuart monarch in the direct male line? No, he isn't. Does it mean he has the best hereditary claim to the Stuart succession? No, he doesn't (Queen Elizabeth, as 10-times great-granddaughter of James I, has a better claim). The word "direct" should be deleted. Constant Pedant ( talk) 02:12, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
The lede is a perfectly reasonable attempt at a difficult problem, but we are now stating as a fact his surname is ‘Herzog von Bayern’, which is what people are concerned about in terms of saying someone has a title. Presumably he was born with the last name ‘Königlicher Prinz von Bayern’ (which was the title during the monarchy), or maybe just ‘Prinz von Bayern’. Can we verify that he changed his last name, and it’s Herzog von Bayern now. Or does he use Herzog von Bayern as a title and is recognised as such? - dwc lr ( talk) 20:51, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Franz is heir to the throne of Bavaria and also the Jacobite heir to the throne of England. The line of succession to the throne of Bavaria has Prince Max then Prince Luitpold, as the article notes. But the Jacobite line of succession to the throne of England is different. It's Prince Max, then his daughter Princess Sophie. The article should say that, but it doesn't. I changed it (as seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria&oldid=1001036482 ), but someone reverted it. - 2603:9000:E408:4800:A1D0:6CA4:8578:AD17 ( talk) 04:16, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 22:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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On 7 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Franz, Duke of Bavaria to Franz von Bayern. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I thought that titles are recognised in German law, being stated on birth certificates.
I believe he does use the titles of Bavaria, but as for the title of "King Francis II of England, Scotland, France, and Ireland" he does not. Espeically that of France since i believe, the current monarchs of the United Kingdom droped that title. As it was a moot title anyway since France was a republic at the time they droped it.
First of all: titles of nobility in Germany are not illegal, they simply do not exist. Instead, former titles are part of the family surname. The family surname consists of the former title that was awarded to each member of the noble family (thus, Prinz/ prince, not Herzog/ duke or König/ king). That was the rule developed by laws passed in each German state after the revolution (This is an example of how these laws looked like: [1]). So the family name of the Wittenbachs was Prinz von Bayern. Legally, it is next to impossible to change that family name, as can be seen on the argument I put down here. So Franz' surname still is Prinz von Bayern. Now one may call him Herzog or Duke or Symbol or whatever, but one has to make a choice: either use his real name, which is Prinz von Bayern, or use an alias under which he is known, which could be Duke of Bavaria (in English on English WP), but not Herzog von Bayern. And by the way, German WP calls him Prinz von Bayern, because by all acounts of verifiability that is his real name, and people that are interested in him recognise him under this name. Yet I am afraid I fight a lost cause here, simply because most people that know a person such as Franz Prinz von Bayern are over-monarchistic. (I have nothing against monarchy in principle, I just don't believe in calling people by fantasy names if these names give a wrong impression about this person's status). Blur4760 23:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
And regarding Albrecht: now that's a tough one: Albrecht either still was a duke, because he exceptionally retained the title after the revolution, a possibility given in some state laws for people holding titles at the moment of the revolution (in that case write Duke of Bavaria, which would not be a title of nobility, but rather a personal title to humour the person), or use the family name, which is of course Prinz von Bayern. Blur4760 00:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Blur4760 is right. Of course, there are indeed people that are officially named "Herzog von Something " (Württemberg, e.g.) in today's Germany. That is because that title was not one that could only be achieved by being a firstborn (i. e. not a „primogenitur“ title) son/daughter. Those have been declared illegal, and are only used by the former nobles as a private hobby, as are all the "styles" like "Ihre Königliche Hoheit" (HRH). In the Wittelsbach family, the Herzog title (dukedom) was a primogenitur title, hence it was officially abandoned in legal documents, and the offical surname of the Wittelsbach family is "Prinz von Bayern", or "Prinzessin von Bayern" (female forms are allowed, I guess because "Franziska Prinz von Bayern" would look just a bit too stupid). If government members and other public persons use "Herzog von Bayern", it is because they are a) unaware of the legal situation or b) think they are being polite, or probably rather c) because they secretely like the idea of still having a nobility in Germany. Other examples of noblemen named incorrectly and illegally much throughout the German political life and, sadly, press, are "Fürstin Gloria von Thurn und Taxis" (right: "Gloria Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis"), "Fürst Georg von Waldburg-Zeil" (right: "Georg Graf von Waldburg-Zeil"). As to the Baden family, I am not so sure, since "Markgraf" seems not to have been a primogenitur title in the grandducal family. Hence "Markgraf Maximilian von Baden" may even use kind of a right name (relly correct would be "Maximilian Markgraf von Baden", of course). In any case, his son Bernhard, who calls himself "Erbprinz", is either "Bernhard Markgraf von Baden" (if the name is official), or "Bernhard Prinz von Baden" - then his father, the so-called margrave, would also be "Maximilian Prinz von Baden"). Why "NOR" is respected more than factual accuracy in en.wikipedia, remains a secret to me. It's one of the numerous reasons I dislike this project, as opposed to many other projects in the Wikimedia family that I contribute a lot to. -- AndreasPraefcke 12:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Several points:
Certain busybodies (who apparently do not appreciate that aforementioned claims of Jacobites, as well as the Wittelsbach inheritance & tradition, are a sufficient load) also attempt to create Franz a claimant to the long defunct kingdoms of Cyprus and Jerusalem, as he descends from their kings, although he is neither the heir-general nor the heir-male to that line of succession. His claim would come from the same Savoy source as the Jacobite succession. However, since the heir-general line of Cyprus etc diverted from Savoy in 1499 and passed finally to the Prince of Ligne de La Tremoille, and the heir-male is the present head of House of Savoy, tho assign Franz that claim is untenable. 62.78.104.45 09:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"In October 1944, when Germany occupied Hungary, the Wittelsbachs were arrested and imprisoned in the concentration camp at Oranienburg.' This statement was switched to "March 1944" by an anon. editor with a checkered career. Can anyone verify the actual date? -- Wetman 06:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Today, somebody changed the image description to say that Franz is "the Jacobite heir to the throne of the United Kingdom, but does not assert his claim" (it previously said "heir to the throne of England"). There is no Jacobite throne of the United Kingdom (since Jacobites believe in separate thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland). Since Franz's Jacobite connection is not mentioned in the opening paragraph, it seems inappropriate to highlight it in the description of the image. Noel S McFerran 12:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
This may be a very silly question, but it does not mention his religion? Is he Catholic? I think this is important to the article, especially in regard to the "Wittelsbach Dynasty today" part and Greek Orthodox. - Animagentile ( talk) 06:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
If the man makes no such claim, is he not a pretender?
ThisMunkey (
talk)
10:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The english wikipedia article states "In 1997, after the death of his father, he changed his surname to Herzog von Bayern (English: Duke of Bavaria)" but the German article does not. I have asked for sources here under "Aktuelle bürgerlicher Name? Quelle?". The english sources are a a Usenet message from alt.royalty but with no source, so a more verifiable source would be nice. Note I am not looking for discussion on what title is used, or what the media call him, only on whether there was a civil name change in 1997 and if so, a source. An exact quote (in German) from the second source "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Band 141, Fürstliche Häuser Band XVIII. Limburg an der Lahn: C. A. Starke, 2007, page 2" that makes it clear the name change was a civil one would also be good. - 84user ( talk) 16:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone clarify when his parents marriage was recognised as dynastic, Les Maisons Impériales et Royales d'Europe says 18 May 1949, Les maisons royales et souveraines d'Europe says 1945. - dwc lr ( talk) 20:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello, can anyone tell me if I am right if I suggest that he could theoretically claim the trone of Navarre and if so why does this claim not appear ? I sincerely do not know if I am right, however, what I know is that, unlike the French trone, the trone of Navarre was inherited by women. King Henry III of Navarre (Henri IV of France) received it from his mother Jonana II de Labrit (French "Jeanne d'Albret", Queen of Navarre). In 1620 Navarre (the title only, since the main part of the territory was taken by Aragon's army and then ocupied by Spain untill today) was integrated within the French Kingdom. However this does not change the rule that women inherit and rule in the Navarre Kingdom.
The first borns within the Bourbon-Navarre house after Henry IV are Louis XIII, Louis XIV and Louis XV ; however, Louis XV first born child was Princess Louise-Élisabeth of France and the Duke of Bavaria is her first born descendent. Is that right ?
If you happen to have the answer, please respond to my occitan page.
Why should he be styled Francis II if he were King of Great Britain, Ireland & France ?
There has never been a Francis I in Great Britain & Ireland, hence he could be Francis I.
And there has been a Francis II in France already, so if he were King of France he would be Francis III. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.108.198.80 ( talk) 14:30, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Hopefully someone can find some reliable sources. This was a link [4] but not used as a source, but see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 82#Jacobite publications and organisations. Dougweller ( talk) 17:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
One of the links at the end of the article is LGBT Royaly, and he is in the lst of LGBT Royalty here, but a word search found nothing about it in the article. Shouldn't ther be some mention at least, or a citation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.13.238.203 ( talk) 02:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I believe that there is not source to believe he is gay — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2806:106E:C:D74F:14A9:4E34:C2B7:654A ( talk) 19:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't think it is accurate or neutral to refer to this person as "Franz, Duke of Bavaria". The German WP calls him "Franz von Bayern", this article should be called "Franz of Bavaria'. He is not a Duke. Definitely there should not be that comma in the title of this article "Franz, Duke of Bavaria", if his name is used that way it should be "Franz Duke of Bavaria", peoples' names don't have commas in them but I think he should not be called a "Duke" at all, it is misleading, not everyone is going to read the whole article and realise that it is not a title but the way members of old aristocratic families are allowed to legally change their names. And the section "Titles and styles" should be deleted, he does not have any titles or styles any more than your dentist or the cleaning lady, they were all abolished, everyone would have some abolished title if we went back far enough. Look at the German article, it does not list his "styles and titles", in fact it says "Der Titel „Herzog von Bayern, Franken und in Schwaben, Pfalzgraf bei Rhein“[5] wird noch traditionell verwendet, entspricht jedoch nicht dem amtlichen Namen. Das dem Namen vorangestellte Prädikat „Königliche Hoheit (K.H.)“ bzw. „Seine Königliche Hoheit (S.K.H.)“ wird ebenfalls noch im gesellschaftlichen Umfeld verwendet, ist jedoch ebenso eine reine Höflichkeitsform ohne rechtliche Relevanz" which more or less means "people call him "royal highness" to his face just to be nice but it has no meaning". Also the German article does not have a box with "Bavarian Royal Family", there is not a Bavarian Royal Family and has not been one for nearly a hundred years. All of this is just snobs' fantasy, why in the world is the English WP perpetuating an idea that there are still Germans with royal titles more than the German WP? It would be in line with WP policy if I were to be bold, move the article to "Franz of Bavaria", delete all that piffle about living German people who are royal highnesses, but for right now I will just tag the article and wait a few days to see if there are any comments. Smeat75 ( talk) 23:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved Armbrust The Homunculus 23:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Franz, Duke of Bavaria → Franz of Bavaria – This person is not a Duke although the page name makes it look like he is. "Duke of Bavaria" is just a translation of his last name. The German WP calls him Franz von Bayern, a translation of which would be a more neutral title. Smeat75 ( talk) 05:27, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
The tags I put on this article because of the name have been restored by an admin but I also strongly dispute that infobox labelled "Bavarian royal family" (there is no such thing) with a list of phoney royal and serene and imperial highnesses (all those titles were abolished in 1919). I changed the template to "House of Wittelsbach" and took out all the false honorific prefixes, it was reverted, I tagged the template itself, the tag was taken out because it "makes a mess" and I was being disruptive. So I am going to tag every article that infobox with its list of what seem to me falsehoods appears in as disputed for accuracy and neutrality. Smeat75 ( talk) 14:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
An obscure law? It is far from that. And if I saw Emperor Norton being referred to on WP as "His Imperial and Royal Majesty" or Queen Latifah as "HM" I would certainly dispute that. My personal opinion does not matter, Franz is not a duke, according to the above three reliable sources out of hundreds I could cite, those titles were all abolished. Smeat75 ( talk) 21:08, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
The section on Duke Franz' birthday party included the mention of the Minister-President of Bavaria, Horst Seehofer, "(formerly President of the German Bundesrat)". Aside from the fact that this is but a side note, I do not think it is relevant that Seehofer was President of the German Bundesrat. As the Bundesrat consists of the governments of the Federal States, Seehofer held the presidency of the chamber ex officio as Minister-President of Bavaria. While the office is officially elected, there is an agreement that the heads of Federal States succeed each other in the office according to their state's rank in inhabitants. His holding the office as such is not a personal achievement but a product of it being Bavaria's turn to hold the office and he happening to be the Minister-President at the time. As the text of the article notes Seehofer "formerly" held the office, it is doubly irrelevant for the article at issue, and I'm thus eliminating the remark. -- 95.90.54.245 ( talk) 12:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Can one be heir-general to a non-ancestor? Unfortunately Heir-general redirects to an article that does not use the term, let alone define it. This sentence previously named Charles I (an ancestor) rather than James II.
Is the prefix co– there because in English common law there is no seniority between sisters? That principle has never been applied to the throne (though it seems 1952 was the first time it could be), nor to Scottish peerages. — Tamfang ( talk) 18:52, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
There's no other references to Othonists on Wikipedia. At the very least a redlink should be provided for this word.
1.127.106.104 ( talk) 16:17, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
NOT a criticism, just a thought... and not specifically directed at this article except that it's what I happened to be reading today... it seems inappropriate to me for an encyclopedia to list a person under a title of nobility connected to a realm that ceased to exist fifteen years before he was born, or at least to do so in a way that looks as if the individual is the current holder of a legitimate office. I am prejudiced in that I find the concept of hereditary nobility itself to be offensive. But while there is indeed an extant and nearly-universally recognized political entity that recognizes Henry Charles Albert David as "the Duke of Sussex," Franz's title is largely a thing of fantasy, little more grounded in current reality than Richard Booth's claim to be "King of Hay". PurpleChez ( talk) 20:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Shouldn’t it be said in his info box that he was born in Munich, Nazi Germany? Jimmyy68 ( talk) 01:06, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
"Franz is a direct descendant of the House of Stuart." This is a meaningless expression. Yes he is a descendant of the House of Stuart, but then so are millions of other people, including nearly all the royal families of Europe. Does it mean he is descended from a Stuart monarch in the direct male line? No, he isn't. Does it mean he has the best hereditary claim to the Stuart succession? No, he doesn't (Queen Elizabeth, as 10-times great-granddaughter of James I, has a better claim). The word "direct" should be deleted. Constant Pedant ( talk) 02:12, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
The lede is a perfectly reasonable attempt at a difficult problem, but we are now stating as a fact his surname is ‘Herzog von Bayern’, which is what people are concerned about in terms of saying someone has a title. Presumably he was born with the last name ‘Königlicher Prinz von Bayern’ (which was the title during the monarchy), or maybe just ‘Prinz von Bayern’. Can we verify that he changed his last name, and it’s Herzog von Bayern now. Or does he use Herzog von Bayern as a title and is recognised as such? - dwc lr ( talk) 20:51, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Franz is heir to the throne of Bavaria and also the Jacobite heir to the throne of England. The line of succession to the throne of Bavaria has Prince Max then Prince Luitpold, as the article notes. But the Jacobite line of succession to the throne of England is different. It's Prince Max, then his daughter Princess Sophie. The article should say that, but it doesn't. I changed it (as seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria&oldid=1001036482 ), but someone reverted it. - 2603:9000:E408:4800:A1D0:6CA4:8578:AD17 ( talk) 04:16, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 22:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)