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The intro of section ' History' had just gotten a subtitle: 'Early history'. This put my attention to its factual inaccuracies, which I corrected. To avoid needless changes, let me point out that at the height of the roman empire, indeed Belgica was the most northeastern province. Then around the start of the decline of the empire the province became subdivided so that Germania Inferior became the most northeastern province. That however, was well after Julius Caesar's references in 'De Bello Gallico' to the Belgiæ, which are the earliest (well-known and often referenced) historical records on the areas that later became County of Flanders as well as still later the Belgian region Flanders. — SomeHuman 25 Aug 2006 15:38 (UTC)
I don't know if my remarks fit here but I'll make them anyhow. The Treaty of Verdun (843) which divided the empire, fixed the eastern border of what later became the county of Flanders at the Scheldt. To the east was the duchy of Brabant, which invluded the "marquisat" of Antwerp and had Brussels as its capital. The germanic language spoken in Brabant was not flemish but "diets" (thiois in French). In 1356, the troops of of the count of Flanders invaded and occupied Brusssels for a few months until they were expelled by its inhabitants under the leadership of the alderman Everard 't Serclaes (cfr the article on him in Wikipedia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.247.189.83 ( talk) 16:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Note: Responses by the original author appear indented and in square brackets. (I've changed this in order to increase readbility; hope you agree, -- Lucas Richards 11:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC))
Dear all,
This discussion has certainly been a useful lesson in the vicissitudes of Belgian politics! Some here have opined that non-Flemish should basically have no input in this discussion,
and I would like to express my opposition to this view: by the same token, then, non-Chinese should never have the right to express opinions about China, or non-Americans about America. Needless to say this is a very limitative approach to learning, and the considered opinion of outsiders should, on the contrary, always be taken seriously. The proverb says: "what can they know of England, those who only of England know?"
It appears to me that people disagree so stringently on the subject of Belgium and Flanders because there is a lack of knowledge as to basic political definitions.
I am going to try and clarify these so that everyone has a better idea of what they're talking about. Please note that this applies to the English language, and that transliterations to French or Dutch may have slightly different cultural and historical connotations.
Nation: a nation is a group of people who generally share cultural characteristics deemed to be significant, most often language and ethnicity. A nation, it is important to note, may or may not have political or legal status. It is reckoned that the people of France are a nation, for instance, and France happens to have a legal political status which reflects this (when this is the case, one speaks of a nation-state). Conversely, although it is equally reckoned that Tibetans form a distinct nation, there is however no Tibetan state in legal existence - Tibet being an administrative part of the People's Republic of China.
Between a fully self-governing status as a sovereign state and a complete subservience to another nation, there are also several intermediary stages of political representation for any given nation - for instance, the province of Quebec in Canada is not an independent state but enjoys high local autonomy in recognition of the large population of ethnic French there who are substantially different, in cultural terms, from the majority of English-speaking Canadians.
Region: a region is first and foremost a geographical area. It does not necessarily reflect the cultural identity of the people who live in it, and it may not have any political status.
Community: a community is a group of people joined together by certain common features. These can be absolutely anything, and often they merely relate to geographical proximity: a neighbourhood can be called a community, or a village, or the people of Europe. Most often communities have no political status or legal representation.
Discussion: The term "Flanders" makes the discussion even more complicated because it encompasses regions which actually belong to different sovereign states than Belgium. The northernmost section of France is often referred to as Flanders, for instance, as is a smaller section of the Netherlands. To simplify matters, one could say that "Greater Flanders" includes all of these regions in addition to Belgian Flanders.
Finally, Brussels makes for a complete classification nightmare because although it traditionally contains more French than Dutch speakers (whether or not this is due to long-lasting Walloon hegemony in Belgium is certainly up for discussion), it is geographically located in Flanders... but by government legislation it is supposed to be half and half (all street signs are bilingual in Brussels, whereas in Wallonia and Flanders they only appear in the respective language of the area in question).
There is no doubt that the Flemish in Belgium make up a separate nation. They speak a completely different language from the French-speaking Walloons and have asserted their distinct cultural identity in many other ways too - for instance through a general consensus that they are more "Anglo-Saxon", more pragmatic and down-to-earth than their Walloon neighbours.
Whether or not their nation should also include the Flemish of France and the Netherlands, however, is disputable, as these "extra" Flemish do not normally feel much kinship towards their cultural brothers in Belgium and are much less concerned about the internal politics of Belgium. In addition, none have expressed much interest about seceding from their original state and joining Belgian Flanders instead.
The Flemish in Belgium are a nation but they do not have a sovereign state (and neither do the Walloons). They are, however, endowed with these intermediate stages of political representation that I talked about earlier. Whether as a "regio/gewest" or a "gemeenschap" they do have the right to decide of their own educational and linguistic policies, their political identification, and the local legislation of their cities, towns and villages.
The rest (which community in Belgium is more privileged, which has more official recognition, which has to pay for the other one, etc etc) is a matter for debate, much of it unfortunately characterised by the continuous tug-of-war between Flanders and Walloonia, as we have seen in this extensive (and often bitter) discussion page.
In my humble opinion as a foreigner, however, the issue of Belgium may be best resolved by outright secession. The creation of independent Belgium in 1830 was borne mostly of a resistance by the Walloons to the idea of being subservient to a Dutch, Protestant throne. The Flemish of Belgium had little say in the matter, and for the next hundred years at least Belgium was ruled autocratically by the Walloons, who oppressed as many elements of Flemish culture as they could.
The Flemish gradually emancipated (especially when Walloon economic dominance dwindled as their heavy industries failed to compete with those of the developing world) and the unfortunate result today, as I see it, is an enormous and inefficient mess. The Flemish are vengefully trying to establish as much control as possible over a lumbering and outdated state structure characterised by a mushrooming bureaucracy and an institutional tendency towards old-fashioned centralism. The consequence is an organisational nightmare: no one really knows what government organ controls what in Belgium (not even, as it would appear from the contributions to this discussion, the Belgians themselves). Belgium has two posts for every ministry, one Flemish and one Walloon, and four different legislative assemblies, all of that for a country the size of a smallish American state. As such Belgium's is one of the most wasteful, bureaucratic, contentious and ineffective governments in the European Union.
Since the decision to create a Belgian state was made with little consideration for the majority Flemish community, one could very well argue that Belgium has no legitimacy. More than that, over the past forty years the two communities have shown very little willingness to cooperate with each other, and instead spend all their time throwing petty spanners in each other's works. The Flemish are doing their level best to avenge themselves for every slight they suffered during the 120-year period of Walloon supremacy, and the Walloons are stubbornly continuing to behave as if nothing had changed.
The enormous row that recently erupted over the status of Vilvoorde (a suburb of Brussels technically in Flanders which, as a natural consequence of the expansion of the city, has happened to become settled in majority by Walloons)
fully shows to what astronomic lengths the two communities are prepared go in trying to annoy each other. In the meanwhile it is the country at large that suffers. Hostility is so widespread that many Walloons wandering around in Flanders now pretend to be French in order not to suffer derogatory treatment. Because of its petty ethnic wars, a country at the heart of Western Europe which should have been sophisticated, cosmopolitan and outward-looking is becoming inward-looking and dogmatic.
Given that the basis for the existence of Belgium is flimsy and undemocratic and that neither community in the country has shown the maturity to try and get along with the other, the best thing to do would be to separate. Things can then begin from a clean slate and both communities can set about establishing a governmental structure which is rational and efficient, instead of the massive quagmire that all Belgians are stuck with today. Of course, even then there is the possibility that Brussels might become the Jerusalem of Northern Europe, and that both communities will continue to bicker for the next eight generations about who has claim over what!
I hope my contribution has been useful. Either way, I dearly wish for a successful resolution of the Belgian conflict, starting right here on Wikipedia! 172.210.92.253 13:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Just to point out a minor mistake: in the Russian version the ancient county of Flanders is constantly referred to as 'duchy'. Ik should say = графство.
Why this endless discussion among Flemish/Brussels/Walloon/ignorant contributors? Just consult the (obligatory) objective information on the whole issue on the Belgian minnistry of Foreign Affairs' site? The whole constitutional reform of Belgium, the competences, etc. are clearly defined. Read and compare www.flanders.be and www.wallonie.be / www.pcf.be/ and keep the mere facts. — 193.191.138.240 18 Sep 2006 (was unsigned, undated)
Can someone tighten up the lead? It's starting to float off into a very general and vague discussion of the word "Flanders" (rather than the geographic region). For example, that one of the primary meanings would be "the community of the Flemings" seems to be a very marginal interpretation. It's somewhat like claiming that England is also "the community of the English". Please keep geographical regions, however disputed, separate from peoples.
Peter Isotalo 14:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Annoying, and boring, all those repetition of POV that disregard so many objective key facts. Facts as: - there being no political parties, no media, no educational system in flanders that is specific for the 'region', but ONLY parties, universities, media and all its other big cultural organisations that are covering the entire Flemish community. - the Flemish Parliament and governement are representing the entire Flemish community (or 'nation' as some prefer), and not the region; - the fact that Flemings live in two regions (the Flemish region and the bilingual brussels region, the latter being 'shared' with French-speakers);
Those facts ar about he contemporary rality. Other facts refer to how 'Flanders' is covered in certain sources as English language encyclopedia. Even in relatively reputable encyclopedia, one can read idioties as 'Ghent' being the capital of flanders (which dates from the Medieval times). many even don't mention anything about the contemporary flemish institutions.
Therefore, given that most of those foreign sources are so hopelessly out of date, I eel Wikipedia should rather give accurate, relevant and up-to-date information, rather then try to be the 'common denominator' of so many out-dated ideas and ignoance. Therefore, I think any Wikipedia article on Flanders should indeed cover both aspects, being both the most important contemporary realities (in this case the Flemish community and its institutions (Parliament, governement, 'Region' and 'communiy', where the latter are hen only the institutions as provided for by he Belgian constitution, and where of course, this view severaly 'hurts ' all french-speaking nationalists. They would prefer that the Flemings in brussles disappear from the earth, so that they can claim Brussels for their own. However, such highly intolerant and partisans views should not dominate Wikipedia articles. Just cover them in subsections on contemporay history is enough.
I don't know if it's an appropriate source for citation but it is mentioned in the Encyclopedia Britannica article for Flanders. - 71.202.124.173 that is really cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.250.242 ( talk) 20:58, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I find the introductory paragraph very obtuse. Could it be made somewhat clearer? If there are necessary pieces stuffed in there that can come out and dealt with later, it might help. It is just very turgid. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.68.2 ( talk) 21:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
We need a map change, to show Flanders is a part of Belgium. -- GoodDay ( talk) 20:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see a map showing Flanders in historical useage, perhaps with the Belgian parts dark, modern general region lighter, and historical region lightest. Something like the map on Central Asia. Paper Toad ( talk) 19:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
There are several problems with this article, the main purpose of which seems to be to present an idealised picture of the Flemish rather than give a neutral point of view. The history section is long and detailed even in pre-history, where we are told without a hint of any source that the Germanic Flemish are descendants of the first inhabitants of the region. Even though the pre-history of the region is so detailed, the article remains eerily silent on the more modern history, not mentioning with one single word the links between the Flemish movement and the Nazi collaborators. The economy section in particular is also badly written, with lots of unsourced statements. JdeJ ( talk) 20:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
You say the official languages of Flanders are: Dutch (Brussels: Dutch and French) But Brussels may be the capital of Flanders but it isn't a part of Flanders so French is no official language of Flanders, so i think it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.190.114.253 ( talk) 06:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I am afraid there must be a mistake on this phrase "in 1477 to the Habsburg dynasty, and in 1556 to the kings of Spain"
The kinx of the Habsburg dynasty were the kinx of spain since the death of Fernando and until the French kinx, Bourbons, won a war (after which England stole gibraltar)
Netherlandic, or Nederlands, is the official English name for the language spoken in Flanders, The Netherlands, Suriname, Dutch Antilles, Aruba and some other regions of the world. Afrikaans is also a kind of Netherlandic. People living in The Netherlands (or Holland) speak Dutch, and Flemish people from Belgium speak Flemish. But the official name is Nederlands or Netherlandic.
People have to stop calling my language Dutch, because I'm not Dutch, I'm Belgian, and I speak Flemish, officially called Netherlandic/Nederlands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scubongo ( talk • contribs) 21:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Netherlandic may be the official term for Nederlands, but as far as I know this is a book-word only used by linguists. It is called Dutch in common english usage. This does not change a thing however to the fact that Dutch- (or Netherlandic-) speaking Belgians (not the same as Flemings) do not usually appreciate to be called Dutchman (or Netherlanders). The difference between Belgians and Dutch is simple enough: we brew beer, they brew Heineken :-) LHOON ( talk) 22:33, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflicted with Luxem, who I agree with)
Hooiwind, it is not that easy. While casually, people always use Dutch and never Netherlandic, it is in use in scientific (philologic and so on) texts. See e.g. the Britannica article on it. However, even in scientific contexts, it is a minority use compared to the use of "Dutch" to indicate the language of most of the Netherlands, Flanders, Suriname, and other parts of the world. Names for the Dutch language gives some more info on this.
Scubongo, there is no "official" translation, there are no insitutions that can proscribe how the name of a language should be in any other language. Both Dutch and Netherlandic are in use, but Dutch is by far the more common term. While it can be confusing (many people think Dutch is the language of Germany), it is the one we should use as being the most common and easiest recognisable for an English language reader. I am Flemish, and I speak Dutch (the common language, not "Hollands"), and its regional variant Flemish. Fram ( talk) 09:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
The official language of Flanders is Dutch (language), not Flemish or Netherlandic. Flemish is a dialect of Dutch! (like Austrian to German or American to English) -- Stijn Calle ( talk) 18:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Just have a look at the official website from Flanders, find its English language section, and all should be clear about the official language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.199.47 ( talk) 15:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Based on most relevant indications, the Community appears much more important then the Region:
The only 'dissenting' voice are the hardliners among the French-speakers who don"t accept the fact that the Flemings living in Brussels are full members of the Flemish Community. This of course, is only one of the many opinions. The changes I've made try to focus only on objective facts.
As there is no official Flemish citizenship, it is difficult to provide figures for the total Flemish population. The figures available are either limited to only the Flemings living in the Flemish Region, or estimates that take into account the Flemings living in Brussels. The various sources estimates these Flamings in Brussels at 15 to 8% of the total population of the Brussels Capital Region.
This article should certainly include
because this flag is very much used in Flanders and by the Flemish goverment state.
Whoever ever watchs a (european) cycling race must have seen this flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by David-bel ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The earlier 'some way' is in fact an understatement. Most of the Flemings who prefer indepdendance and also many who favor confederalism (as me) consider Flanders as a 'nation'. Since 2005, certain opinion polls started showing a majority for independance, whereas other show between 15 and 50%. The long term trend appears clearly upwards. that means that the total of those considering Flanders as a nation can be estimated as quite impressive (maybe between 20 and 50%). the removal of 'nation' appears therefore a very partisan point of view. -- Rudi Dierick ( talk) 12:52, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
This article lacks focus, and it is quite frankly a bit of a mess. It is true that this article needs to deal with two main ideas of the word "Flanders" - the historical area and the modern northern half of Belgium. Given, however, that there is extensive overlap, I think this can be massaged into a single, cohesive article, and I think having the core of the content smeared across three articles, namely this one, Flemish Region and Flemish Community, is not a great idea.
We should half-merge the content from Flemish Region into this one, and use the infobox, which gives all the vital statistics, like population, area, capital, GDP, etc, in one place. We implemented a similar solution with Wallonia, and I think you'll agree that that works quite well, and that the article gives you more or less all the information you need in one place. We should also still include all of the history and culture of Flanders in the historical sense in this article, in much the same way the article on Germany includes info on Prussia, Germanic tribes and Immanuel Kant (who lived in Königsberg, which is no longer part of Germany). Just as we have in Wallonia, we should have a terminology section explaining clearly what the difference between the different meanings of the term is. Right now it is spread across two sections, the lead (which is a mess) and a shabby "The term "Flanders"" section, and it's not at all clear what the article is about until you're done reading it. For example, the current Geography, Climate and Demographics sections are only about the Flemish Region, which is normal, but not at all made clear. By streamlining the infobox and the lead, it would make it much more clear what the scope of the article is. As this article is clearly the main article on the Flemish Region, we should move that page to Flemish Region (federal region) for further information on the constitutional region itself and add a hatnote, just as we have for Wallonia, and make this page the one-stop shop for all information on Flanders. I really think this could work quite well. Thoughts? Oreo Priest talk 23:10, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
The current map of Flanders is incorrect. See File talk:Flanders in Belgium and the European Union.svg for details. If someone knows how to fix it, please do. Cheers, Van der Hoorn ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
What is meant by this sentence: "The use of the name Belgium in the legal name of only one Community has led to enormous political discourse throughout Belgium". -- 78.21.166.174 ( talk) 08:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
[Initial paragraph copied from my talk page -
Oreo Priest
talk
20:32, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Hi Oreo Priest. Sorry for again overthrowing your edit, but your wording would misleadingly have been interpreted as if two parties had contested the result of the election, perhaps a more often occuring or talked about possibility than forming a cartel before the elections, especially for readers from countries where such cartel never occurred in politics. That does not mean that the term 'cartel' is wrong in another context than the more common commercial cartel. I think that the Belgians and others may have been creating this political extension of 'cartel' not only in French and Dutch, but it is also dripping into the English language texts distributed e.g. in Britain. The context in the article '
Flanders' certainly does not allow the term to become misinterpreted, it can only make readers aware of the extended usage; and the nature of the before the elections publicly announced cartel (officially presenting both otherwise still autonomous parties together as a single election list and with a common programme, to act together in full agreement as if one party after the elections according to the preset agreement defending/fighting specific topics together be it in government or in opposition), constitutes a cartel, there is no short way to give that meaning accurately. See also e.g.:
While in 2004 a cartel was formed by CD&V-NVA, there already existed the cartel SP.a-Spirit (2003 federal election). The term was new in a political context then, also in Dutch and I assume in French. Though it might have been intentionally derogatory at first, it appears that the in both languages identical term for this rather recent political development, quickly became neutral and meanwhile established and has been taken into the English language, which like French and Dutch used to know that term limited to the economical meaning only.
Previously, there used to be many rumours about 'secret' pre-election agreements (demanding the other party to be also included in a coalition government before joining that coalition if one got the better negotiation handle, and consequently in one of Belgium's many parliaments voting along the same lines for specific themes); some of those unofficialized agreements had been rather confirmed afterwards; very rarely the existence (but not the precise contents) of such agreement had even been made public before an election.
For municipal elections, cartel lists had been created much earlier and often by a new list name, rather a local party formed by local candidates belonging to two or more different national or regional political parties, as far as I know not as top-level party decisions. These generally drew much less public attention, and probably enjoyed extremely little international exposure - though were not completely unnoticed, e.g.:
The term 'cartel' only showed up in the larger political arena, for the formal and by election law presented single list with candidates from two entire parties that formed a (temporary) specifically limited union only for a particular election and the government period that was to follow (though such cartel might have continued for later elections). During the cartels, each party held on to its own separate party structure and party meetings. It has the side-effect of not knowing how many voters backed each cartel party, making comparisons between consecutive elections of which some had the 'normal' separate lists a mere conjecture.
Hm, with a bit more decent fact verification and proper referencing, most of the above might become an article 'Cartel (politics)' with a link from
Cartel (disambiguation) and from the term 'cartel' in article 'Flemish'. Unfortunately however, the political term 'cartel party' already has another established meaning:
This text and also the one by Blomme and Verstraete mention
Katz and Mair’s (1995) theory of the "
cartel party" that as I understand refers basically or simplistically to financing all parties with enough influence not to be overlooked, by state resources - a rather perverse self-sustaining trend or tendency with negative aspects similar to commercial cartels. There is no risk of anyone assuming this kind of cartel to be intended in the current context of the term in the article 'Flanders'.
Kind regards,▲
SomeHuman 2011-02-02 13:18 - corrected, added, revised until 20:27 (UTC)
What is this statement close to the start of the article supposed to mean: For centuries, Flanders has served as the crossroads between the French, German, and British civilizations. It seems very woolly. Would we be better without it? Van Speijk ( talk) 14:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I think there are some errors in the following fragment, found in the subsection 'Historical parts of the County of Flanders': In 17th and 18th century, king Louis XIV of France captured more French-speaking areas in southern Flanders still referred to as French Flanders or la Flandre Lilloise. French Flanders contains the departements Nord and Pas de Calais), comprising the arrondissements of Lille and Douai. There are several errors here: Louis XIV captured of course areas that were Dutch-speaking at that time; the areas he occupied now make up the totality of French Flanders, not only Flandre Lilloise; and French Flanders is surely not the same as the two departements Nord and Pas de Calais. -- Blancefloer ( talk) 08:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Club Brugge, Cercle Brugge, Kortrijk, Zulte Waregem, Oostende, Roeselare, Gent, Lokeren, Antwerp, Royal Antwerp, Beerschot AC, Mechelen, Lierse, Westerlo, Genk, Sint-Truidense, Lommel, Aalst, Denderleeuw, Leuven, Waasland-Beveren,(and in the past, Geel)... What else? What about Brussels-teams? What about Anderlecht? What about FC Brussels? Böri ( talk) 10:45, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
What does this mean?: "Though interpreted by many Flemish nationalists as a statement, this phrase is merely a quotation from the Belgian constitution and has no further legal value whatsoever." The words in question is a statement, which happens to come from the constitution, ie. is a quote from the constitution. Whether it has any legal effect - not value - that is an entirely different matter Royalcourtier ( talk) 04:30, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Flanders is something isn't it? At the moment we have a WP:REFERS problem where Flanders today normally refers to this, and historically it referred to that. Usually only disambiguation pages, or articles about a term (such as Gay (term)) use "refers". I understand it has shifting boundaries, but all boundaries shift. The Poland article doesn't begin "Poland today refers to...".
Beyond the fact Flanders is nether a community or a region, Flanders and Flemish Region treats both subjects as synonymous of the same thing. AdjectivesAreBad ( talk) 21:54, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
The opening paragraph ends with although Flanders is competent only in Brussels' culturally related matters and shares this competence with Wallonia. What on earth does this mean? Can someone figure out what they were trying to say and rewrite it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.237.220 ( talk) 04:51, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't have the time right now, but shouldn't this article have an art section? After all, our painters from 15th to 17th century are one of the things Flanders is best known for abroad... We now have one sentence and no pictures about this! Fram ( talk) 14:36, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Even though it is not the biggest part of Belgium by area, it is the area with the largest population (68.5%). 7,876,873 out of 11,491,346 inhabitants of Belgium, live in the Flemish part (Brussels included).
Does it make sense to include Brussels here, when it is not part of the Flemish region and the infobox on the side does not include it? 2602:306:CFEA:170:F582:899:B45A:29AA ( talk) 03:29, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I think it is best to give such statistics both including and not including Brussels, because it is both Flemish and not Flemish, so to speak. Being a wiki though, I suppose people adding statistics sometimes do not have both to hand. In other words, better to add more information than to remove any.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Why is Flanders also mentioned in french in the title? Falco iron ( talk) 02:10, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
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The intro of section ' History' had just gotten a subtitle: 'Early history'. This put my attention to its factual inaccuracies, which I corrected. To avoid needless changes, let me point out that at the height of the roman empire, indeed Belgica was the most northeastern province. Then around the start of the decline of the empire the province became subdivided so that Germania Inferior became the most northeastern province. That however, was well after Julius Caesar's references in 'De Bello Gallico' to the Belgiæ, which are the earliest (well-known and often referenced) historical records on the areas that later became County of Flanders as well as still later the Belgian region Flanders. — SomeHuman 25 Aug 2006 15:38 (UTC)
I don't know if my remarks fit here but I'll make them anyhow. The Treaty of Verdun (843) which divided the empire, fixed the eastern border of what later became the county of Flanders at the Scheldt. To the east was the duchy of Brabant, which invluded the "marquisat" of Antwerp and had Brussels as its capital. The germanic language spoken in Brabant was not flemish but "diets" (thiois in French). In 1356, the troops of of the count of Flanders invaded and occupied Brusssels for a few months until they were expelled by its inhabitants under the leadership of the alderman Everard 't Serclaes (cfr the article on him in Wikipedia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.247.189.83 ( talk) 16:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Note: Responses by the original author appear indented and in square brackets. (I've changed this in order to increase readbility; hope you agree, -- Lucas Richards 11:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC))
Dear all,
This discussion has certainly been a useful lesson in the vicissitudes of Belgian politics! Some here have opined that non-Flemish should basically have no input in this discussion,
and I would like to express my opposition to this view: by the same token, then, non-Chinese should never have the right to express opinions about China, or non-Americans about America. Needless to say this is a very limitative approach to learning, and the considered opinion of outsiders should, on the contrary, always be taken seriously. The proverb says: "what can they know of England, those who only of England know?"
It appears to me that people disagree so stringently on the subject of Belgium and Flanders because there is a lack of knowledge as to basic political definitions.
I am going to try and clarify these so that everyone has a better idea of what they're talking about. Please note that this applies to the English language, and that transliterations to French or Dutch may have slightly different cultural and historical connotations.
Nation: a nation is a group of people who generally share cultural characteristics deemed to be significant, most often language and ethnicity. A nation, it is important to note, may or may not have political or legal status. It is reckoned that the people of France are a nation, for instance, and France happens to have a legal political status which reflects this (when this is the case, one speaks of a nation-state). Conversely, although it is equally reckoned that Tibetans form a distinct nation, there is however no Tibetan state in legal existence - Tibet being an administrative part of the People's Republic of China.
Between a fully self-governing status as a sovereign state and a complete subservience to another nation, there are also several intermediary stages of political representation for any given nation - for instance, the province of Quebec in Canada is not an independent state but enjoys high local autonomy in recognition of the large population of ethnic French there who are substantially different, in cultural terms, from the majority of English-speaking Canadians.
Region: a region is first and foremost a geographical area. It does not necessarily reflect the cultural identity of the people who live in it, and it may not have any political status.
Community: a community is a group of people joined together by certain common features. These can be absolutely anything, and often they merely relate to geographical proximity: a neighbourhood can be called a community, or a village, or the people of Europe. Most often communities have no political status or legal representation.
Discussion: The term "Flanders" makes the discussion even more complicated because it encompasses regions which actually belong to different sovereign states than Belgium. The northernmost section of France is often referred to as Flanders, for instance, as is a smaller section of the Netherlands. To simplify matters, one could say that "Greater Flanders" includes all of these regions in addition to Belgian Flanders.
Finally, Brussels makes for a complete classification nightmare because although it traditionally contains more French than Dutch speakers (whether or not this is due to long-lasting Walloon hegemony in Belgium is certainly up for discussion), it is geographically located in Flanders... but by government legislation it is supposed to be half and half (all street signs are bilingual in Brussels, whereas in Wallonia and Flanders they only appear in the respective language of the area in question).
There is no doubt that the Flemish in Belgium make up a separate nation. They speak a completely different language from the French-speaking Walloons and have asserted their distinct cultural identity in many other ways too - for instance through a general consensus that they are more "Anglo-Saxon", more pragmatic and down-to-earth than their Walloon neighbours.
Whether or not their nation should also include the Flemish of France and the Netherlands, however, is disputable, as these "extra" Flemish do not normally feel much kinship towards their cultural brothers in Belgium and are much less concerned about the internal politics of Belgium. In addition, none have expressed much interest about seceding from their original state and joining Belgian Flanders instead.
The Flemish in Belgium are a nation but they do not have a sovereign state (and neither do the Walloons). They are, however, endowed with these intermediate stages of political representation that I talked about earlier. Whether as a "regio/gewest" or a "gemeenschap" they do have the right to decide of their own educational and linguistic policies, their political identification, and the local legislation of their cities, towns and villages.
The rest (which community in Belgium is more privileged, which has more official recognition, which has to pay for the other one, etc etc) is a matter for debate, much of it unfortunately characterised by the continuous tug-of-war between Flanders and Walloonia, as we have seen in this extensive (and often bitter) discussion page.
In my humble opinion as a foreigner, however, the issue of Belgium may be best resolved by outright secession. The creation of independent Belgium in 1830 was borne mostly of a resistance by the Walloons to the idea of being subservient to a Dutch, Protestant throne. The Flemish of Belgium had little say in the matter, and for the next hundred years at least Belgium was ruled autocratically by the Walloons, who oppressed as many elements of Flemish culture as they could.
The Flemish gradually emancipated (especially when Walloon economic dominance dwindled as their heavy industries failed to compete with those of the developing world) and the unfortunate result today, as I see it, is an enormous and inefficient mess. The Flemish are vengefully trying to establish as much control as possible over a lumbering and outdated state structure characterised by a mushrooming bureaucracy and an institutional tendency towards old-fashioned centralism. The consequence is an organisational nightmare: no one really knows what government organ controls what in Belgium (not even, as it would appear from the contributions to this discussion, the Belgians themselves). Belgium has two posts for every ministry, one Flemish and one Walloon, and four different legislative assemblies, all of that for a country the size of a smallish American state. As such Belgium's is one of the most wasteful, bureaucratic, contentious and ineffective governments in the European Union.
Since the decision to create a Belgian state was made with little consideration for the majority Flemish community, one could very well argue that Belgium has no legitimacy. More than that, over the past forty years the two communities have shown very little willingness to cooperate with each other, and instead spend all their time throwing petty spanners in each other's works. The Flemish are doing their level best to avenge themselves for every slight they suffered during the 120-year period of Walloon supremacy, and the Walloons are stubbornly continuing to behave as if nothing had changed.
The enormous row that recently erupted over the status of Vilvoorde (a suburb of Brussels technically in Flanders which, as a natural consequence of the expansion of the city, has happened to become settled in majority by Walloons)
fully shows to what astronomic lengths the two communities are prepared go in trying to annoy each other. In the meanwhile it is the country at large that suffers. Hostility is so widespread that many Walloons wandering around in Flanders now pretend to be French in order not to suffer derogatory treatment. Because of its petty ethnic wars, a country at the heart of Western Europe which should have been sophisticated, cosmopolitan and outward-looking is becoming inward-looking and dogmatic.
Given that the basis for the existence of Belgium is flimsy and undemocratic and that neither community in the country has shown the maturity to try and get along with the other, the best thing to do would be to separate. Things can then begin from a clean slate and both communities can set about establishing a governmental structure which is rational and efficient, instead of the massive quagmire that all Belgians are stuck with today. Of course, even then there is the possibility that Brussels might become the Jerusalem of Northern Europe, and that both communities will continue to bicker for the next eight generations about who has claim over what!
I hope my contribution has been useful. Either way, I dearly wish for a successful resolution of the Belgian conflict, starting right here on Wikipedia! 172.210.92.253 13:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Just to point out a minor mistake: in the Russian version the ancient county of Flanders is constantly referred to as 'duchy'. Ik should say = графство.
Why this endless discussion among Flemish/Brussels/Walloon/ignorant contributors? Just consult the (obligatory) objective information on the whole issue on the Belgian minnistry of Foreign Affairs' site? The whole constitutional reform of Belgium, the competences, etc. are clearly defined. Read and compare www.flanders.be and www.wallonie.be / www.pcf.be/ and keep the mere facts. — 193.191.138.240 18 Sep 2006 (was unsigned, undated)
Can someone tighten up the lead? It's starting to float off into a very general and vague discussion of the word "Flanders" (rather than the geographic region). For example, that one of the primary meanings would be "the community of the Flemings" seems to be a very marginal interpretation. It's somewhat like claiming that England is also "the community of the English". Please keep geographical regions, however disputed, separate from peoples.
Peter Isotalo 14:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Annoying, and boring, all those repetition of POV that disregard so many objective key facts. Facts as: - there being no political parties, no media, no educational system in flanders that is specific for the 'region', but ONLY parties, universities, media and all its other big cultural organisations that are covering the entire Flemish community. - the Flemish Parliament and governement are representing the entire Flemish community (or 'nation' as some prefer), and not the region; - the fact that Flemings live in two regions (the Flemish region and the bilingual brussels region, the latter being 'shared' with French-speakers);
Those facts ar about he contemporary rality. Other facts refer to how 'Flanders' is covered in certain sources as English language encyclopedia. Even in relatively reputable encyclopedia, one can read idioties as 'Ghent' being the capital of flanders (which dates from the Medieval times). many even don't mention anything about the contemporary flemish institutions.
Therefore, given that most of those foreign sources are so hopelessly out of date, I eel Wikipedia should rather give accurate, relevant and up-to-date information, rather then try to be the 'common denominator' of so many out-dated ideas and ignoance. Therefore, I think any Wikipedia article on Flanders should indeed cover both aspects, being both the most important contemporary realities (in this case the Flemish community and its institutions (Parliament, governement, 'Region' and 'communiy', where the latter are hen only the institutions as provided for by he Belgian constitution, and where of course, this view severaly 'hurts ' all french-speaking nationalists. They would prefer that the Flemings in brussles disappear from the earth, so that they can claim Brussels for their own. However, such highly intolerant and partisans views should not dominate Wikipedia articles. Just cover them in subsections on contemporay history is enough.
I don't know if it's an appropriate source for citation but it is mentioned in the Encyclopedia Britannica article for Flanders. - 71.202.124.173 that is really cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.250.242 ( talk) 20:58, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I find the introductory paragraph very obtuse. Could it be made somewhat clearer? If there are necessary pieces stuffed in there that can come out and dealt with later, it might help. It is just very turgid. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.68.2 ( talk) 21:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
We need a map change, to show Flanders is a part of Belgium. -- GoodDay ( talk) 20:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see a map showing Flanders in historical useage, perhaps with the Belgian parts dark, modern general region lighter, and historical region lightest. Something like the map on Central Asia. Paper Toad ( talk) 19:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
There are several problems with this article, the main purpose of which seems to be to present an idealised picture of the Flemish rather than give a neutral point of view. The history section is long and detailed even in pre-history, where we are told without a hint of any source that the Germanic Flemish are descendants of the first inhabitants of the region. Even though the pre-history of the region is so detailed, the article remains eerily silent on the more modern history, not mentioning with one single word the links between the Flemish movement and the Nazi collaborators. The economy section in particular is also badly written, with lots of unsourced statements. JdeJ ( talk) 20:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
You say the official languages of Flanders are: Dutch (Brussels: Dutch and French) But Brussels may be the capital of Flanders but it isn't a part of Flanders so French is no official language of Flanders, so i think it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.190.114.253 ( talk) 06:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I am afraid there must be a mistake on this phrase "in 1477 to the Habsburg dynasty, and in 1556 to the kings of Spain"
The kinx of the Habsburg dynasty were the kinx of spain since the death of Fernando and until the French kinx, Bourbons, won a war (after which England stole gibraltar)
Netherlandic, or Nederlands, is the official English name for the language spoken in Flanders, The Netherlands, Suriname, Dutch Antilles, Aruba and some other regions of the world. Afrikaans is also a kind of Netherlandic. People living in The Netherlands (or Holland) speak Dutch, and Flemish people from Belgium speak Flemish. But the official name is Nederlands or Netherlandic.
People have to stop calling my language Dutch, because I'm not Dutch, I'm Belgian, and I speak Flemish, officially called Netherlandic/Nederlands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scubongo ( talk • contribs) 21:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Netherlandic may be the official term for Nederlands, but as far as I know this is a book-word only used by linguists. It is called Dutch in common english usage. This does not change a thing however to the fact that Dutch- (or Netherlandic-) speaking Belgians (not the same as Flemings) do not usually appreciate to be called Dutchman (or Netherlanders). The difference between Belgians and Dutch is simple enough: we brew beer, they brew Heineken :-) LHOON ( talk) 22:33, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflicted with Luxem, who I agree with)
Hooiwind, it is not that easy. While casually, people always use Dutch and never Netherlandic, it is in use in scientific (philologic and so on) texts. See e.g. the Britannica article on it. However, even in scientific contexts, it is a minority use compared to the use of "Dutch" to indicate the language of most of the Netherlands, Flanders, Suriname, and other parts of the world. Names for the Dutch language gives some more info on this.
Scubongo, there is no "official" translation, there are no insitutions that can proscribe how the name of a language should be in any other language. Both Dutch and Netherlandic are in use, but Dutch is by far the more common term. While it can be confusing (many people think Dutch is the language of Germany), it is the one we should use as being the most common and easiest recognisable for an English language reader. I am Flemish, and I speak Dutch (the common language, not "Hollands"), and its regional variant Flemish. Fram ( talk) 09:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
The official language of Flanders is Dutch (language), not Flemish or Netherlandic. Flemish is a dialect of Dutch! (like Austrian to German or American to English) -- Stijn Calle ( talk) 18:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Just have a look at the official website from Flanders, find its English language section, and all should be clear about the official language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.199.47 ( talk) 15:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Based on most relevant indications, the Community appears much more important then the Region:
The only 'dissenting' voice are the hardliners among the French-speakers who don"t accept the fact that the Flemings living in Brussels are full members of the Flemish Community. This of course, is only one of the many opinions. The changes I've made try to focus only on objective facts.
As there is no official Flemish citizenship, it is difficult to provide figures for the total Flemish population. The figures available are either limited to only the Flemings living in the Flemish Region, or estimates that take into account the Flemings living in Brussels. The various sources estimates these Flamings in Brussels at 15 to 8% of the total population of the Brussels Capital Region.
This article should certainly include
because this flag is very much used in Flanders and by the Flemish goverment state.
Whoever ever watchs a (european) cycling race must have seen this flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by David-bel ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The earlier 'some way' is in fact an understatement. Most of the Flemings who prefer indepdendance and also many who favor confederalism (as me) consider Flanders as a 'nation'. Since 2005, certain opinion polls started showing a majority for independance, whereas other show between 15 and 50%. The long term trend appears clearly upwards. that means that the total of those considering Flanders as a nation can be estimated as quite impressive (maybe between 20 and 50%). the removal of 'nation' appears therefore a very partisan point of view. -- Rudi Dierick ( talk) 12:52, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
This article lacks focus, and it is quite frankly a bit of a mess. It is true that this article needs to deal with two main ideas of the word "Flanders" - the historical area and the modern northern half of Belgium. Given, however, that there is extensive overlap, I think this can be massaged into a single, cohesive article, and I think having the core of the content smeared across three articles, namely this one, Flemish Region and Flemish Community, is not a great idea.
We should half-merge the content from Flemish Region into this one, and use the infobox, which gives all the vital statistics, like population, area, capital, GDP, etc, in one place. We implemented a similar solution with Wallonia, and I think you'll agree that that works quite well, and that the article gives you more or less all the information you need in one place. We should also still include all of the history and culture of Flanders in the historical sense in this article, in much the same way the article on Germany includes info on Prussia, Germanic tribes and Immanuel Kant (who lived in Königsberg, which is no longer part of Germany). Just as we have in Wallonia, we should have a terminology section explaining clearly what the difference between the different meanings of the term is. Right now it is spread across two sections, the lead (which is a mess) and a shabby "The term "Flanders"" section, and it's not at all clear what the article is about until you're done reading it. For example, the current Geography, Climate and Demographics sections are only about the Flemish Region, which is normal, but not at all made clear. By streamlining the infobox and the lead, it would make it much more clear what the scope of the article is. As this article is clearly the main article on the Flemish Region, we should move that page to Flemish Region (federal region) for further information on the constitutional region itself and add a hatnote, just as we have for Wallonia, and make this page the one-stop shop for all information on Flanders. I really think this could work quite well. Thoughts? Oreo Priest talk 23:10, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
The current map of Flanders is incorrect. See File talk:Flanders in Belgium and the European Union.svg for details. If someone knows how to fix it, please do. Cheers, Van der Hoorn ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
What is meant by this sentence: "The use of the name Belgium in the legal name of only one Community has led to enormous political discourse throughout Belgium". -- 78.21.166.174 ( talk) 08:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
[Initial paragraph copied from my talk page -
Oreo Priest
talk
20:32, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Hi Oreo Priest. Sorry for again overthrowing your edit, but your wording would misleadingly have been interpreted as if two parties had contested the result of the election, perhaps a more often occuring or talked about possibility than forming a cartel before the elections, especially for readers from countries where such cartel never occurred in politics. That does not mean that the term 'cartel' is wrong in another context than the more common commercial cartel. I think that the Belgians and others may have been creating this political extension of 'cartel' not only in French and Dutch, but it is also dripping into the English language texts distributed e.g. in Britain. The context in the article '
Flanders' certainly does not allow the term to become misinterpreted, it can only make readers aware of the extended usage; and the nature of the before the elections publicly announced cartel (officially presenting both otherwise still autonomous parties together as a single election list and with a common programme, to act together in full agreement as if one party after the elections according to the preset agreement defending/fighting specific topics together be it in government or in opposition), constitutes a cartel, there is no short way to give that meaning accurately. See also e.g.:
While in 2004 a cartel was formed by CD&V-NVA, there already existed the cartel SP.a-Spirit (2003 federal election). The term was new in a political context then, also in Dutch and I assume in French. Though it might have been intentionally derogatory at first, it appears that the in both languages identical term for this rather recent political development, quickly became neutral and meanwhile established and has been taken into the English language, which like French and Dutch used to know that term limited to the economical meaning only.
Previously, there used to be many rumours about 'secret' pre-election agreements (demanding the other party to be also included in a coalition government before joining that coalition if one got the better negotiation handle, and consequently in one of Belgium's many parliaments voting along the same lines for specific themes); some of those unofficialized agreements had been rather confirmed afterwards; very rarely the existence (but not the precise contents) of such agreement had even been made public before an election.
For municipal elections, cartel lists had been created much earlier and often by a new list name, rather a local party formed by local candidates belonging to two or more different national or regional political parties, as far as I know not as top-level party decisions. These generally drew much less public attention, and probably enjoyed extremely little international exposure - though were not completely unnoticed, e.g.:
The term 'cartel' only showed up in the larger political arena, for the formal and by election law presented single list with candidates from two entire parties that formed a (temporary) specifically limited union only for a particular election and the government period that was to follow (though such cartel might have continued for later elections). During the cartels, each party held on to its own separate party structure and party meetings. It has the side-effect of not knowing how many voters backed each cartel party, making comparisons between consecutive elections of which some had the 'normal' separate lists a mere conjecture.
Hm, with a bit more decent fact verification and proper referencing, most of the above might become an article 'Cartel (politics)' with a link from
Cartel (disambiguation) and from the term 'cartel' in article 'Flemish'. Unfortunately however, the political term 'cartel party' already has another established meaning:
This text and also the one by Blomme and Verstraete mention
Katz and Mair’s (1995) theory of the "
cartel party" that as I understand refers basically or simplistically to financing all parties with enough influence not to be overlooked, by state resources - a rather perverse self-sustaining trend or tendency with negative aspects similar to commercial cartels. There is no risk of anyone assuming this kind of cartel to be intended in the current context of the term in the article 'Flanders'.
Kind regards,▲
SomeHuman 2011-02-02 13:18 - corrected, added, revised until 20:27 (UTC)
What is this statement close to the start of the article supposed to mean: For centuries, Flanders has served as the crossroads between the French, German, and British civilizations. It seems very woolly. Would we be better without it? Van Speijk ( talk) 14:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I think there are some errors in the following fragment, found in the subsection 'Historical parts of the County of Flanders': In 17th and 18th century, king Louis XIV of France captured more French-speaking areas in southern Flanders still referred to as French Flanders or la Flandre Lilloise. French Flanders contains the departements Nord and Pas de Calais), comprising the arrondissements of Lille and Douai. There are several errors here: Louis XIV captured of course areas that were Dutch-speaking at that time; the areas he occupied now make up the totality of French Flanders, not only Flandre Lilloise; and French Flanders is surely not the same as the two departements Nord and Pas de Calais. -- Blancefloer ( talk) 08:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Club Brugge, Cercle Brugge, Kortrijk, Zulte Waregem, Oostende, Roeselare, Gent, Lokeren, Antwerp, Royal Antwerp, Beerschot AC, Mechelen, Lierse, Westerlo, Genk, Sint-Truidense, Lommel, Aalst, Denderleeuw, Leuven, Waasland-Beveren,(and in the past, Geel)... What else? What about Brussels-teams? What about Anderlecht? What about FC Brussels? Böri ( talk) 10:45, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
What does this mean?: "Though interpreted by many Flemish nationalists as a statement, this phrase is merely a quotation from the Belgian constitution and has no further legal value whatsoever." The words in question is a statement, which happens to come from the constitution, ie. is a quote from the constitution. Whether it has any legal effect - not value - that is an entirely different matter Royalcourtier ( talk) 04:30, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Flanders is something isn't it? At the moment we have a WP:REFERS problem where Flanders today normally refers to this, and historically it referred to that. Usually only disambiguation pages, or articles about a term (such as Gay (term)) use "refers". I understand it has shifting boundaries, but all boundaries shift. The Poland article doesn't begin "Poland today refers to...".
Beyond the fact Flanders is nether a community or a region, Flanders and Flemish Region treats both subjects as synonymous of the same thing. AdjectivesAreBad ( talk) 21:54, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
The opening paragraph ends with although Flanders is competent only in Brussels' culturally related matters and shares this competence with Wallonia. What on earth does this mean? Can someone figure out what they were trying to say and rewrite it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.237.220 ( talk) 04:51, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't have the time right now, but shouldn't this article have an art section? After all, our painters from 15th to 17th century are one of the things Flanders is best known for abroad... We now have one sentence and no pictures about this! Fram ( talk) 14:36, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Even though it is not the biggest part of Belgium by area, it is the area with the largest population (68.5%). 7,876,873 out of 11,491,346 inhabitants of Belgium, live in the Flemish part (Brussels included).
Does it make sense to include Brussels here, when it is not part of the Flemish region and the infobox on the side does not include it? 2602:306:CFEA:170:F582:899:B45A:29AA ( talk) 03:29, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I think it is best to give such statistics both including and not including Brussels, because it is both Flemish and not Flemish, so to speak. Being a wiki though, I suppose people adding statistics sometimes do not have both to hand. In other words, better to add more information than to remove any.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Why is Flanders also mentioned in french in the title? Falco iron ( talk) 02:10, 23 January 2020 (UTC)