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Does anyone else think that Y Ddraig Goch should be merged with this? - calum 17:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
How come that is not the national flag? I think it is a political statement that England's Saint George the Dragonslayer rules over Wales's Dragon. Besides, isn't the dragon a pagan symbol and aren't most Welsh people deeply Christian? Éponyme 18:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there any reason for any of this "opposition" section to exist? A new political party surfaces and announces the dragon is satanic; fails to be elected; disappears off Google. What is encyclopedic about this? I can't find the party website, only stories in the press from around the time of the election. A case of undue weight? Telsa (talk) 18:29, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is there both and on Wikipedia? 212.137.63.86 ( talk) 12:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
hate to be pedantic but where's the dragon on the maltese flag? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.73.132.82 ( talk) 09:59, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
I am waiting to hear why the Cross of St George is not the official flag of Wales seeing as it represents Wales on the country's sovereign flag, the Union Flag. I am sure there is a valid reason why the official Welsh flag is not the English flag but this article does not deal with it at all. 219.89.230.157 ( talk) 09:48, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
The section on exclusion is over-written: Wales is not represented in the Union flag because it was considered part of England; oh and a bit of trivia that the Daily Telegraph had a fun competition to add Wales in. No one of great noteworthiness proposed the image shown, the shown image does not represent any great significance. May as well try to find a still from The Simpsons with a Welsh flag in the background, that would have just as much significance. 81.97.131.168 ( talk) 22:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Welsh Dragon Memorial Mametz Wood.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 27 October 2011
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Whilst editing, my reason for doing so was cut short. Simply because the Welsh Flag was "accepted" by the British Heraldic establishment in 1959 does not mean it was not used by the people of Wales before that. (It quite obviously was, as any discussion with any Welsh person born before 1959 will show.) However, that is immaterial, as the onus of proof is on someone to prove that the use of the Welsh flag at the election of Lloyd George was wrong or anachronistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.254.249 ( talk) 01:43, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Ceiniog ( talk) 17:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Just one quote from BBC history site after quick google search, " in Caernarfon in 1911, at the investiture of Edward, Prince of Wales, the flag appeared in its current form" . This takes it back well before 1959, and it may well have been used by Welsh people rather than the British establishment establishment before then. If it were up to someone to prove it was used before 1959 I would look for (much) better references than the BBC, but as I say, it is up to someone who wishes the deleted section to stand to prove that the deleted reference is incorrect/anachronistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.254.249 ( talk) 02:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Ceiniog ( talk) 17:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
A photo of the Welsh Flag ("in its current form") being flown at the International Six Day Trials (motorcycle event) at Llandrindod Wells in 1938 on this site- http://speedtracktales.com/index-of-isdt-events/isdt-1938-wales/
Just one piece of evidence showing that the use of the Welsh flag before 1959 is not "incorrect" or "anachronistic". Ceiniog ( talk) 11:53, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I mean the flag which both you and I linked to. It is quite obviously the Welsh flag, as is the second one you link to. What is your point? The second image is the Welsh flag. Assuming you (for some reason) think the dragon in the second link is a bit different (to whatever you have unilaterally decided a Welsh dragon should look like), the dragon appears in many different forms on the flag, there is no official version of it. It appears in many different forms on Welsh flags. The one you link to is not particularly unusual.
I would suggest you invest in a pair of reading glasses if you cannot see the obvious Welsh flag in the 1938 photo. Ceiniog ( talk) 00:27, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Actually, on rereading, that last sentence of mine is unfair. You are obviously not saying you cannot see it, just that you can not be sure that the dragon is exactly the same form as- well, whatever. I apologise for the last sentence, but refer you to the first paragraph of my answer. Ceiniog ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:46, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
In fact, I may have fallen foul of not assuming "good faith", if that is the term? I apologise further for the tone of my answering text! But if you could read the facts in it rather than the rather confrontational tone, I would be obliged.
Thank you for your interest on this subject! 00:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC) Ceiniog ( talk)
So, just to establish in a better way than I did above the point I am making! The Welsh flag consisting of a red dragon on a white and green background was used by the Welsh people as the Welsh flag long before 1959. Ok, "how long before?" I have no idea! But the deleted text said that it was "inaccurate" and "anachronistic" in 1890. As the flag (red dragon on white and green background) was used by Welsh people as the Welsh flag before 1959, it us up to someone who wants the text to stand to prove that it is "anachronistic". If the form of the red dragon was less uniform as you go back in in time (I would guess this is correct!) this still does not mean that any form of the Welsh flag is "anachronistic". The form seems to have gone from "many different forms" to "one form", rather than from "one form" to " another form" if you see what I mean. So the dragons tail seems to gave gone from sometimes pointing down and sometimes pointing up to always pointing up.
And the 1959 date seems to be a bit of an irrelevance in the way the people of Wales use the flag, (but that is a debate for a different issue concerning the flag!)
This does not mean if a Welsh flag was used in 1890, it would not have had a dragon resembling the ones today in all such points. (Not that there are many such points!)
Therefore, I believe the text I deleted should stay deleted unless someone can link to evidence as to why the use of some form of a red dragon on a white and green background as a Welsh flag by a group of Welsh people would be anachronistic in 1890. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceiniog ( talk • contribs) 01:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:37, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
There is currently a petition going to the Senedd about whether the flag should have a penis which has attracted some national news attention ( Daily Mail; Express). The depiction of the flag on this page currently has a penis, but this doesn't appear to be normative. Should the image be neutered to reflect this?
The current exact version of the flag may be more recent than 1959. Issue 088 (Winter 1997) of the Flag Institute's journal, Flagmaster, refers to the 'design of the dragon approved in 1970'. Issue 142 (from 2012) of the same publication states that the 'pattern was defined in 1973'. Both referencing the current design. Christian Fogd Pedersen's International Flag Book in Colour (published 1971 for English language version, original Danish publication in 1970) illustrates a slightly different version of the dragon which it states is the correct version, and which appears to be virtually identical (except for having the normal background of white over green stripes) to the form of dragon shown (albeit on a green mound rather than stripe) in this link https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gb-w-col.gif in the Flags of the World website page https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-wales.html. This indicates the pre-1953 & 1959-1970/1973 flag is different from the current design. Domhnallbeag ( talk) 20:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
The use of the flag by Cadwaladr is potentially a (long standing) myth based on the available sources born out of a historical misunderstanding. While not a a reputable source on it's own, there's a well researched video on the topic whose sources seem to stand up to scrutiny. - LoomCreek ( talk) 20:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
@ LoomCreek and Sirfurboy: I posted on the YouTube video, mentioning your actions. The host (Dr Williams is it?) was appreciative, and I thank you both on his behalf. Narky Blert ( talk) 06:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
And it is not just Edward (and the people behind him) who were making such claims. Henry VII also made claims to cast himself as the prince of Wales and ruler of prophecy. The link to Cadwaladr was certainly being made at this point. What was not being said was that the red dragon was the flag (or arms) of Cadwaladr. That came later, but it came about because Henry VII and others were making these genealogical claims. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 19:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)Neville was the political brains. His sermons allude to the prophecies of Merlin and the angel to Cadwallader, claiming that the British line, which perished with Cadwallader’s exile in 689, was restored with the arrival of Edward the king prophesied by Merlin and others.
Lifeschool: I updated the page a bit today to make it clearer about Saint Cadwaladr and his connection to the Welsh flag, but some revisions were reverted. " Henry Tudor popularised it's use in heraldry after falsely claimed to have descended from Cadwaladr, a later 7th Century ruler of Gwynedd, to legitimize his kingship claim over Britain."
It is a fact that Henry did this. Take a look at the Henry VII page. It gives a reference of:
If the word '"falsely" is an issue, then just edit that out.
As for "of Cadwallader" The Cadwaladr page uses this reference for the claim: Dobin, Howard, Merlin's Disciples: Prophecy, Poetry, and Power in Renaissance England, Stanford University Press, 1990, p.51. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeschool ( talk • contribs) 20:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Some evidence has come to light of the first modern use of the dragon on a flag or draped standard.
Could someone add this to the article, please? Would be much appreciated, thanks. Titus Gold ( talk) 16:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
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Does anyone else think that Y Ddraig Goch should be merged with this? - calum 17:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
How come that is not the national flag? I think it is a political statement that England's Saint George the Dragonslayer rules over Wales's Dragon. Besides, isn't the dragon a pagan symbol and aren't most Welsh people deeply Christian? Éponyme 18:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there any reason for any of this "opposition" section to exist? A new political party surfaces and announces the dragon is satanic; fails to be elected; disappears off Google. What is encyclopedic about this? I can't find the party website, only stories in the press from around the time of the election. A case of undue weight? Telsa (talk) 18:29, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is there both and on Wikipedia? 212.137.63.86 ( talk) 12:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
hate to be pedantic but where's the dragon on the maltese flag? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.73.132.82 ( talk) 09:59, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
I am waiting to hear why the Cross of St George is not the official flag of Wales seeing as it represents Wales on the country's sovereign flag, the Union Flag. I am sure there is a valid reason why the official Welsh flag is not the English flag but this article does not deal with it at all. 219.89.230.157 ( talk) 09:48, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
The section on exclusion is over-written: Wales is not represented in the Union flag because it was considered part of England; oh and a bit of trivia that the Daily Telegraph had a fun competition to add Wales in. No one of great noteworthiness proposed the image shown, the shown image does not represent any great significance. May as well try to find a still from The Simpsons with a Welsh flag in the background, that would have just as much significance. 81.97.131.168 ( talk) 22:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Welsh Dragon Memorial Mametz Wood.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 27 October 2011
Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 15:45, 28 October 2011 (UTC) |
Whilst editing, my reason for doing so was cut short. Simply because the Welsh Flag was "accepted" by the British Heraldic establishment in 1959 does not mean it was not used by the people of Wales before that. (It quite obviously was, as any discussion with any Welsh person born before 1959 will show.) However, that is immaterial, as the onus of proof is on someone to prove that the use of the Welsh flag at the election of Lloyd George was wrong or anachronistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.254.249 ( talk) 01:43, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Ceiniog ( talk) 17:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Just one quote from BBC history site after quick google search, " in Caernarfon in 1911, at the investiture of Edward, Prince of Wales, the flag appeared in its current form" . This takes it back well before 1959, and it may well have been used by Welsh people rather than the British establishment establishment before then. If it were up to someone to prove it was used before 1959 I would look for (much) better references than the BBC, but as I say, it is up to someone who wishes the deleted section to stand to prove that the deleted reference is incorrect/anachronistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.254.249 ( talk) 02:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Ceiniog ( talk) 17:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
A photo of the Welsh Flag ("in its current form") being flown at the International Six Day Trials (motorcycle event) at Llandrindod Wells in 1938 on this site- http://speedtracktales.com/index-of-isdt-events/isdt-1938-wales/
Just one piece of evidence showing that the use of the Welsh flag before 1959 is not "incorrect" or "anachronistic". Ceiniog ( talk) 11:53, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I mean the flag which both you and I linked to. It is quite obviously the Welsh flag, as is the second one you link to. What is your point? The second image is the Welsh flag. Assuming you (for some reason) think the dragon in the second link is a bit different (to whatever you have unilaterally decided a Welsh dragon should look like), the dragon appears in many different forms on the flag, there is no official version of it. It appears in many different forms on Welsh flags. The one you link to is not particularly unusual.
I would suggest you invest in a pair of reading glasses if you cannot see the obvious Welsh flag in the 1938 photo. Ceiniog ( talk) 00:27, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Actually, on rereading, that last sentence of mine is unfair. You are obviously not saying you cannot see it, just that you can not be sure that the dragon is exactly the same form as- well, whatever. I apologise for the last sentence, but refer you to the first paragraph of my answer. Ceiniog ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:46, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
In fact, I may have fallen foul of not assuming "good faith", if that is the term? I apologise further for the tone of my answering text! But if you could read the facts in it rather than the rather confrontational tone, I would be obliged.
Thank you for your interest on this subject! 00:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC) Ceiniog ( talk)
So, just to establish in a better way than I did above the point I am making! The Welsh flag consisting of a red dragon on a white and green background was used by the Welsh people as the Welsh flag long before 1959. Ok, "how long before?" I have no idea! But the deleted text said that it was "inaccurate" and "anachronistic" in 1890. As the flag (red dragon on white and green background) was used by Welsh people as the Welsh flag before 1959, it us up to someone who wants the text to stand to prove that it is "anachronistic". If the form of the red dragon was less uniform as you go back in in time (I would guess this is correct!) this still does not mean that any form of the Welsh flag is "anachronistic". The form seems to have gone from "many different forms" to "one form", rather than from "one form" to " another form" if you see what I mean. So the dragons tail seems to gave gone from sometimes pointing down and sometimes pointing up to always pointing up.
And the 1959 date seems to be a bit of an irrelevance in the way the people of Wales use the flag, (but that is a debate for a different issue concerning the flag!)
This does not mean if a Welsh flag was used in 1890, it would not have had a dragon resembling the ones today in all such points. (Not that there are many such points!)
Therefore, I believe the text I deleted should stay deleted unless someone can link to evidence as to why the use of some form of a red dragon on a white and green background as a Welsh flag by a group of Welsh people would be anachronistic in 1890. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceiniog ( talk • contribs) 01:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:37, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
There is currently a petition going to the Senedd about whether the flag should have a penis which has attracted some national news attention ( Daily Mail; Express). The depiction of the flag on this page currently has a penis, but this doesn't appear to be normative. Should the image be neutered to reflect this?
The current exact version of the flag may be more recent than 1959. Issue 088 (Winter 1997) of the Flag Institute's journal, Flagmaster, refers to the 'design of the dragon approved in 1970'. Issue 142 (from 2012) of the same publication states that the 'pattern was defined in 1973'. Both referencing the current design. Christian Fogd Pedersen's International Flag Book in Colour (published 1971 for English language version, original Danish publication in 1970) illustrates a slightly different version of the dragon which it states is the correct version, and which appears to be virtually identical (except for having the normal background of white over green stripes) to the form of dragon shown (albeit on a green mound rather than stripe) in this link https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/g/gb-w-col.gif in the Flags of the World website page https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-wales.html. This indicates the pre-1953 & 1959-1970/1973 flag is different from the current design. Domhnallbeag ( talk) 20:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
The use of the flag by Cadwaladr is potentially a (long standing) myth based on the available sources born out of a historical misunderstanding. While not a a reputable source on it's own, there's a well researched video on the topic whose sources seem to stand up to scrutiny. - LoomCreek ( talk) 20:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
@ LoomCreek and Sirfurboy: I posted on the YouTube video, mentioning your actions. The host (Dr Williams is it?) was appreciative, and I thank you both on his behalf. Narky Blert ( talk) 06:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
And it is not just Edward (and the people behind him) who were making such claims. Henry VII also made claims to cast himself as the prince of Wales and ruler of prophecy. The link to Cadwaladr was certainly being made at this point. What was not being said was that the red dragon was the flag (or arms) of Cadwaladr. That came later, but it came about because Henry VII and others were making these genealogical claims. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 19:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)Neville was the political brains. His sermons allude to the prophecies of Merlin and the angel to Cadwallader, claiming that the British line, which perished with Cadwallader’s exile in 689, was restored with the arrival of Edward the king prophesied by Merlin and others.
Lifeschool: I updated the page a bit today to make it clearer about Saint Cadwaladr and his connection to the Welsh flag, but some revisions were reverted. " Henry Tudor popularised it's use in heraldry after falsely claimed to have descended from Cadwaladr, a later 7th Century ruler of Gwynedd, to legitimize his kingship claim over Britain."
It is a fact that Henry did this. Take a look at the Henry VII page. It gives a reference of:
If the word '"falsely" is an issue, then just edit that out.
As for "of Cadwallader" The Cadwaladr page uses this reference for the claim: Dobin, Howard, Merlin's Disciples: Prophecy, Poetry, and Power in Renaissance England, Stanford University Press, 1990, p.51. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeschool ( talk • contribs) 20:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Some evidence has come to light of the first modern use of the dragon on a flag or draped standard.
Could someone add this to the article, please? Would be much appreciated, thanks. Titus Gold ( talk) 16:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)