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I suggest that this be removed or clarified since the main basis for this idea is the Japanese pornographic video series "kunoichi" and perhaps some anime. The traditional understanding of kunoichi is simply a female ninja.
Before anyone comes and revamps my entry please think for a moment. Being a big follower of literature and various other media, I believe the definition of the Femme Fatale is much more complicated than just "A murdurous, sexual woman." This may have been the literal meaning of the phrase at first but I believe in our modern culture the archtype stands for many more things than just that.
I included the debate on Lilith...as I think she's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Lilith is one of the most basic examples of a Femme Fatale, and many for years thought of her as pure evil. Why is that exactly though? Is it because she was truly evil or simply because she merely wanted to go her own way? The text on Lilith quite obviously states that the reason Lilith was damned to hell and demonhood was because she wished for equality to Adam...and she was denied it and seen as a traitor to God and heaven for it. I think personally this is a barbaric view but I disgress.
Many so called Femme Fatale characters in history are arguably not venomous or evil, just simply out for their own purposes most of the time. The main character of the film Mulan Rouge is often stated to be a Femme Fatale, yet she wasn't an evil character. She had immoral tendancies but in the end, all she wanted was her dream. Mystique in the X-Men comic books is an excellent example of a modern Femme Fatale, but she's not evil. The comic never insinuates that she's evil...she's just been betrayed so much and shown extreme prejudice to that she's eventually become the woman she is currently. Its not hard to understand why.
I believe while it is important to explain what Femme Fatale means, I think the difference between a good Wikipedia article and just a plain mediocre entry is briefly but surely delving into some of the complications and social perspectives that go into the word as well. While it may be much to say a woman is a Femme Fatale just because she's sexual...there are a lot of female characters many consider Femme Fatales that cross a lot of the lines.
Changes to my entry and the whole entry in general are welcome, but I strongly urge future posters to put a little more thought and meat onto the article than just flat out erasing my entry and keeping it bare bones minimum. This entry needs attention for a reason, it needs more information! Everyone knows what a Femme Fatale is...but whats its relevance in history? What are the complications and exceptions that go with it? Thats what Wikipedia is really about.
So please...don't just erase it without any contribution of your own. Think about it for a moment...-- Kiyosuki 06:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The text on Lilith quite obviously states that the reason Lilith was damned to hell and demonhood was because she wished for equality to Adam...and she was denied it and seen as a traitor to God and heaven for it.
Mystique really is quite evil. I think that evil can be (lazily) defined as willing to do anything, with no regard to others, for your own comfort or power. Mystique fits that to a T (a phrase i have never understood, maybe its tea) WookMuff 31/01/06
Why is evil the main defining characteristic. Femme fatales historically in art are not always evil. They are women with a sexual nature, but there isn't always a malicious intent present, it is often more submissive. Do your research.
Hey does anyone know when the term femme fatale was coined? 19th century France maybe? Grice 00:24, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Maye West and Jessica Rabbitt are not really femme fatales. They are sexual, but are they evil or murderous? Nope, pure of heart. I'm going to remove them.
I also question the example of Elektra from Marvel Comics. As I recall, Elektra was a warrior, putting her more in an Amazon-type archetype than femme fatale. -Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.156.248.71 ( talk) 13:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Ellie from Skins is not a femme fatale. It is an embarrassment to all the real femme fatales of history, movies, literature and TV to even consider her as one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.83.39 ( talk) 21:29, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Was Cleopatra a villain who ensnared the hapless hero? I can imagine she was portrayd as such in a couple of movies, but that doesn't justify that the historical person should be labelled as such. The article Cleopatra VII of Egypt doesn't give support for her femme fatale-ness either. I remove her. / Habj 01:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Seems like more literary examples are needed, like Mallarme's Herodiade and the Salome found in Dario's poem. Salome was a major figure in French literature throughout the 19th C. (See The New History of French Literature, edited by Denis Holier).
On the English side, De Qunicey's Our Ladies of the Sorrows provide a complicated example.
See also Margaret Atwoods superb novel "The Robber Bride" for modern day depiction of a femme fatale.
I've eliminated Dominique Francon (from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead) from the list for several reasons: she is good, not villainous; she does not have "insatiable" sexual desire; she does not "ensnare a hapless hero." In short, she doesn't meet the criteria at all. LaszloWalrus 09:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to rework the introduction; it seems a bit POV to me. ("malign power of sexuality"?) ChrisWinter 23:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
A big point of debate is the subject of Lilith, the mythological first wife of Adam before Eve. In most texts depicting Lilith, many point out that her only real crime against Adam and God was voicing her own opinion. She is sentenced to hell, and God creates a new woman for Adam in the form of Eve.
This part of the article needs a citation. There is little consensus as to where the Lilith myth comes from; many archaeologists and scholars of ancient mythology believe it to be a post hoc interpretation of a different myth, an example of
syncretism, or the consequence of a mistranslation.
--Citation-- The above appears to be opinion Lilith is a Old Testement pre christianity character that is partially written out of Hebrew versions of the book of Genesis, post Christianity's middle age rise. Sumerian myths related to a Litith are about the same time as original Hebrew & Arameic texts. The main difference is that the Sumerian texts are unedited as the civilization changes and dies off prior to the western rise of Judaism and then Christianity both of which go through significant internal politcal changes during the periods from 100BC to 1800AD. Judaism goes through major repression during the 1000 to 1600 period and many changes are made to Judaic texts during the repression, by the now overwhelmingly Christian, European cultures. Witcombe [1] clearly references such changes and those text are a direct reference to Old Testatment inclusion of Lilith and the subsequent removal. Lilith's place in the bible changes as the need to highlight one figure (i.e. Mary via the Cult of the Virgin Mary) and other figures are marginalized or even removed to promote other figures. I have removed the verification and included external link to the verification. If you disagree feel free to remove the external link but please cite contrary sources that Lilith was added post hoc to biblical references.-- Ffocuser 17:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the unreferenced politically correct handwringing in the intro is a bit POV. I don't think a wikipedia article is the right place for moralising about whether a concept is PC or not. Colin4C 12:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC):
This article is absolutely terrible. It is full of original research and speculation, and makes no attempt to act as an informed or structured introduction to the topic. It reads like an essay, and a poorly-referenced essay at that - the sort of thing a high-school student might cobble together from Google at the last minute. I have tried to clean up its tone a bit but there isn't much that can be done without adding a lot more in terms of decent academic or published sources to back up some of these claims. It would be a good idea for anyone thinking of contributing to this article to have a skim of WP:NOT#OR and WP:NOR. -- TinaSparkle 12:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Keats addresses this issue in one of his poems La Belle Dame sans Merci: A Ballad. He is ambiguous enough in the poem that it is not clear whether the woman he met was really a femme fatale, or whether he just sees her as one. Also, as the theme progressed in literature, it changed a little. Especially after/during WWI, poets started writing about women as talking men into going to war, and thus to their deaths (Siegfried Sassoon's Glory of Women and Yeats' No Second Troy). In other words, different ages use the theme in different ways.
I, personally, don't think this article has OR problems (maybe it's changed since I got here), just in-line citation problems. I guess we just need to find the sources for the statements in the ref section at the bottom, or elsewhere. Wrad 03:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
There is something of central importance to the conception of a femme fatale missing from what is on offer here that has nothing to do with sexism or political correctness, but everything to do with the reality of gender difference. A femme fatale is able to ensnare men and/or bend them to her will precisely because men are susceptible to such exploitation. It is a man's own 'fatal defect'--his own weakness--skilfully turned to advantage by a femme fatale that gives her an ascendancy over him. This may seem obvious--so obvious that the article neglects to mention it--but unless the parasitic dependency of the femme fatale phenomenon is acknowledged it remains unintelligible. A femme fatale cannot advance her own interests by coercion; she can only do so by encouraging men to undermine themselves for her sake. She plays an agency role and is the beneficiary in the relationship, but the fatal flaw which allows her to succeed is contributed by men themselves. Analogically, we can liken a femme fatale to a computer hacker who is 'dangerous' only to systems that have exploitable flaws to begin with and thus lend themselves to being hacked.
";he, the femme fatale today is still often described as having a power akin to an enchantress" TYPO? The "he," at the beginning seems to be spurious and the passage reads correctly without it. (Please delete this paragraph if you fix the problem in the article)
I would say Carmen fits the description almost perfectly. 24.226.77.23 ( talk) 05:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
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The devil in the Ninth Gate, night-elf archer of Warcraft 3, the lead character in Heavenly Sword, Lucia von Bardas, Dark Elves and Morene Strident in Kingdom Under Fire, Buki of the Sudeki, Selenia of Arthur and the Minimoys, Inara Serra of Firefly (see Firefly (TV series) ), Lara Croft of Tomb Raider, the sorceress appearing in specific episode of Skyland, the sorceress apearing in Ben10, the female caracter in The 5th element, Suki of Avatar, Willow of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the lead caracter of Tabula Rasa, princess Farah/Elika in Prince of Persia ( Allies from the Prince of Persia series#Princess Farah), Jade of Beyond Good and Evil ( Beyond Good & Evil (video game)), Alyx Vance of Half Life 2 ( Alyx Vance), the female caracters in terminator:the sarah connor chronicles, ... ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.246.174.158 ( talk) 08:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Other near femme Fatales are Twilight Zone's "The Queen of the Nile", La Belle Dame sans Merci; Kolchak: The Night Stalker episodes "Demon In Lace" and "The Youth Killer" of fatales who kill/drain men with black magic to stay eternally young; a variation was the Sci-Fi series Otherworld episode "Paradise Lost" and "Star Trek" Cartoon series episode The Lorelei Signal in which the villians use science instead of magic for eternal youth/and or seduce men.
Both dictionary.com and m-w.com have prerecorded audio files where the speaker pronounces the word 'fehm' fatale. Is there a citation for the pronunciation 'fahm' fatal being most common and in standard usage? I have indeed hear both pronunciations personally... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.105.5 ( talk) 01:24, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
" James Bond" isn't mentioned once in this article. TheListUpdater ( talk) 01:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
This sentence bugs me a lot: "The ideas involved are closely tied to fears of the female witch and misogyny[1] while, according the History of Television.ca, a Canadian website which outlines television's history, the femme fatale "remains an example of female independence and a threat to traditional female gender roles".[2]"
Besides having grammatical errors, it is incorrect. The citation is linked to History Television's website, which is a Canadian television station's website, not a website about the history of television. Since this is my first time here, I'm not going to edit it, but I thought I'd point that out for someone who is more comfortable to do so. Upsidedown i ( talk) 06:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)Upsideown_i
I removed the incorrect sentence but I kept the citation in, because the reference link is itself correct. Upsidedown i ( talk) 18:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Will editors please discuss their reasons for deleting paragraphs in the article here on the talk page and try to reach a concensus view before doing so. Thanks. Colin4C ( talk) 17:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
And where do you get the idea that female mythical figures instantly qualify as femme fatales? It is not mentioned or implied anywhere in the paragraphs you have deleted:
Seeing as you are getting personal about this I'd like to inform you that I do use my head which is why one of my articles is the 300th featured article on the wikipedia and why my stuff on Roman religion is published by the the Cambridge University Press. Your talk of "pollution" is uncivil and rhetorical and bullying. Most of the stuff in this para comes from Praz and can be referenced. Colin4C ( talk) 18:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
To demontrate that it is not "ridiculous" or "polluting" to say that Lilith is a femme fatale and a succubus here's some stuff by scholars with regard to Lilith being both: "In Eastern tradition Lilith, as princess of the succubi is primarily a seductress of men" (Praz: 282) "Lilith is the Semitic name for the beautiful and licentious unmarried harlot who seduces men in streets and field" - (Stephen H. Langdon Tammuz and Ishtar OUP: 74) Colin4C ( talk) 19:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
References
While it may be appropriate to append noinclude text, it should follow the same rules as any other. No need to shout or command. Naturally a well referenced fact would be worthy of inclusion, therefor, simply stating "Do not put something into this article" is not as accurate as "do not put this in unless well referenced". That is the basis of my last reversion to this article. Cheers My76 Strat 04:25, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
The "In Popular Culture" section needs a major overhaul. For one, it reads as a list, without any specifics about what makes each character a femme fatale. It also seems that whoever wrote it has decided (without citation) that Femme Fatale now means simply "strong female" or "heroic female." At least half of the examples given are not in any way femme fatales. And that's not to mention the numerous spelling errors and odd sentence structure.
Can someone go through that entry and rewrite it so that it's an article rather than a list, and remove all the false examples (which is over HALF of them)? Whenever I try to remove the false examples or simply undo the additions (which were made by a single user on Nov 2), it triggers it as vandalism. Why can false and uncited information be added in bulk so easily, but to remove it flags it as vandalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.24.162.214 ( talk) 04:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I came here to see if anyone had said the same thing. That section is terrible. Whoever wrote it seems to be listing female characters almost at random -- anyone who's "strong" and anyone who's attractive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.192.41 ( talk) 22:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
The first half of this sentence is uninteresting (so she used the phrase, big deal) and the latter half is gibberish, so I removed it. — Tamfang ( talk) 22:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
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I would like to contend that some of the examples listed do not meet the qualifications of a femme fatale as defined by the article. Sean Young's character in Blade Runner is, if anything, the OPPOSITE of a femme fatale, a complete innocent incapable of manipulating anyone into anything. Similar is Isabella Rossellini's character in Blue Velvet. She is a victim of circumstance, and is more of a target for Kyle McLachlan's character than a seductress herself. Also, one of the 'femme fatale's' listed as played by Marion Cotillard - her character in Midnight in Paris - is not a femme fatale at all. The other examples I can not speak for as I either agree with them or are not familiar with them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.201.233.177 ( talk) 12:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Femme fatale/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Honestly one of the better articles on a literary type. Not GA, though. Just needs more development. Wrad 03:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 03:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 15:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
How do you call a male equivalent of the femme fatale? How about a link to it? Thy -- SvenAERTS ( talk) 03:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Malle Fatale? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.54.123.96 ( talk) 16:46, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
> The phrase is French for "fatal woman".
Fatal woman does not convey the same meaning in English. Better would be "deadly woman" or "lethal woman". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.90.50.2 ( talk) 07:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Can you add femme fatales in Indian cinema such as Waheeda Rehman in CID (1956 film). [1]
---
Can you make like an example of femme fatale
Character | Portrayed by | Movie | Date | References Misshampleton ( talk) 22:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC) |
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Character | Portrayed by | Movie | Date | References Misshampleton ( talk) 22:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC) |
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I’ve just gone through the Examples section; I’ve split a number of entries which combined different characters from different films played by the same actress, as it is the character who is the femme fatale, not the actress. I've also promoted the Examples sub-section to a full section, and split the tables into Film and Television sub-sections, to make editing easier. I trust everyone is OK with that. Swanny18 ( talk) 17:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Over the past few months this article has become a clothes rack for for a long list of supposed examples added by a now-blocked user. user:Drmies removed the list in October, and it has been restored without comment by an IP. I agree with the removal and am removing it again. Meters ( talk) 07:09, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
perhaps we should also have an article on the Homme Fatale aka the Femme Fatale's male counterpart, a seductive man who uses his handsome charm and smile to lure women into deadly traps, and dig in a bit deeper into what also makes them deadly Hewwoh ( talk) 01:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
The new edits from that section were removed with the summary "rv. we already have excessive examples". I reverted them back. The new edits are focused on discussing more prominently the example of Phyllis Dietrichson (portrayed by Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity). I believe any section discussing the era of classic film noirs (1940s and 1950s) needs to focus on this character, because it is a character which is considered an archetype of the femme fatale (this is sourced) and Double Indemnity is one of the most emblematic examples of a film depicting a femme fatale (the film is centered on the actions of the femme fatale, unlike other films where the femme fatale plays a more minor role). If you believe that there are too many examples in that section (and in other sections) than feel free to trim and improve the section/article (only two more examples were added by the new edits; the example of Phyllis Dietrichson was already there, the edits only expanded on it), but I don't think the whole revert was justified. Please discuss this here, rather than doing a full revert. The section is not perfect, but neither was it in good shape before the new edits. 2A02:2F0F:B110:B500:D59C:C464:85DB:941C ( talk) 14:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
This section is unusually thin. I came here to learn more only to find just about nothing. The topic is fascinating, but poorly understood. My guess is that the origins of the idea are the most interesting of all, yet there is nothing here. Viriditas ( talk) 09:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 October 2021 and 17 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AvaClariceM. Peer reviewers: Gabbymatheson.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I suggest that this be removed or clarified since the main basis for this idea is the Japanese pornographic video series "kunoichi" and perhaps some anime. The traditional understanding of kunoichi is simply a female ninja.
Before anyone comes and revamps my entry please think for a moment. Being a big follower of literature and various other media, I believe the definition of the Femme Fatale is much more complicated than just "A murdurous, sexual woman." This may have been the literal meaning of the phrase at first but I believe in our modern culture the archtype stands for many more things than just that.
I included the debate on Lilith...as I think she's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Lilith is one of the most basic examples of a Femme Fatale, and many for years thought of her as pure evil. Why is that exactly though? Is it because she was truly evil or simply because she merely wanted to go her own way? The text on Lilith quite obviously states that the reason Lilith was damned to hell and demonhood was because she wished for equality to Adam...and she was denied it and seen as a traitor to God and heaven for it. I think personally this is a barbaric view but I disgress.
Many so called Femme Fatale characters in history are arguably not venomous or evil, just simply out for their own purposes most of the time. The main character of the film Mulan Rouge is often stated to be a Femme Fatale, yet she wasn't an evil character. She had immoral tendancies but in the end, all she wanted was her dream. Mystique in the X-Men comic books is an excellent example of a modern Femme Fatale, but she's not evil. The comic never insinuates that she's evil...she's just been betrayed so much and shown extreme prejudice to that she's eventually become the woman she is currently. Its not hard to understand why.
I believe while it is important to explain what Femme Fatale means, I think the difference between a good Wikipedia article and just a plain mediocre entry is briefly but surely delving into some of the complications and social perspectives that go into the word as well. While it may be much to say a woman is a Femme Fatale just because she's sexual...there are a lot of female characters many consider Femme Fatales that cross a lot of the lines.
Changes to my entry and the whole entry in general are welcome, but I strongly urge future posters to put a little more thought and meat onto the article than just flat out erasing my entry and keeping it bare bones minimum. This entry needs attention for a reason, it needs more information! Everyone knows what a Femme Fatale is...but whats its relevance in history? What are the complications and exceptions that go with it? Thats what Wikipedia is really about.
So please...don't just erase it without any contribution of your own. Think about it for a moment...-- Kiyosuki 06:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The text on Lilith quite obviously states that the reason Lilith was damned to hell and demonhood was because she wished for equality to Adam...and she was denied it and seen as a traitor to God and heaven for it.
Mystique really is quite evil. I think that evil can be (lazily) defined as willing to do anything, with no regard to others, for your own comfort or power. Mystique fits that to a T (a phrase i have never understood, maybe its tea) WookMuff 31/01/06
Why is evil the main defining characteristic. Femme fatales historically in art are not always evil. They are women with a sexual nature, but there isn't always a malicious intent present, it is often more submissive. Do your research.
Hey does anyone know when the term femme fatale was coined? 19th century France maybe? Grice 00:24, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Maye West and Jessica Rabbitt are not really femme fatales. They are sexual, but are they evil or murderous? Nope, pure of heart. I'm going to remove them.
I also question the example of Elektra from Marvel Comics. As I recall, Elektra was a warrior, putting her more in an Amazon-type archetype than femme fatale. -Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.156.248.71 ( talk) 13:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Ellie from Skins is not a femme fatale. It is an embarrassment to all the real femme fatales of history, movies, literature and TV to even consider her as one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.83.39 ( talk) 21:29, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Was Cleopatra a villain who ensnared the hapless hero? I can imagine she was portrayd as such in a couple of movies, but that doesn't justify that the historical person should be labelled as such. The article Cleopatra VII of Egypt doesn't give support for her femme fatale-ness either. I remove her. / Habj 01:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Seems like more literary examples are needed, like Mallarme's Herodiade and the Salome found in Dario's poem. Salome was a major figure in French literature throughout the 19th C. (See The New History of French Literature, edited by Denis Holier).
On the English side, De Qunicey's Our Ladies of the Sorrows provide a complicated example.
See also Margaret Atwoods superb novel "The Robber Bride" for modern day depiction of a femme fatale.
I've eliminated Dominique Francon (from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead) from the list for several reasons: she is good, not villainous; she does not have "insatiable" sexual desire; she does not "ensnare a hapless hero." In short, she doesn't meet the criteria at all. LaszloWalrus 09:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to rework the introduction; it seems a bit POV to me. ("malign power of sexuality"?) ChrisWinter 23:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
A big point of debate is the subject of Lilith, the mythological first wife of Adam before Eve. In most texts depicting Lilith, many point out that her only real crime against Adam and God was voicing her own opinion. She is sentenced to hell, and God creates a new woman for Adam in the form of Eve.
This part of the article needs a citation. There is little consensus as to where the Lilith myth comes from; many archaeologists and scholars of ancient mythology believe it to be a post hoc interpretation of a different myth, an example of
syncretism, or the consequence of a mistranslation.
--Citation-- The above appears to be opinion Lilith is a Old Testement pre christianity character that is partially written out of Hebrew versions of the book of Genesis, post Christianity's middle age rise. Sumerian myths related to a Litith are about the same time as original Hebrew & Arameic texts. The main difference is that the Sumerian texts are unedited as the civilization changes and dies off prior to the western rise of Judaism and then Christianity both of which go through significant internal politcal changes during the periods from 100BC to 1800AD. Judaism goes through major repression during the 1000 to 1600 period and many changes are made to Judaic texts during the repression, by the now overwhelmingly Christian, European cultures. Witcombe [1] clearly references such changes and those text are a direct reference to Old Testatment inclusion of Lilith and the subsequent removal. Lilith's place in the bible changes as the need to highlight one figure (i.e. Mary via the Cult of the Virgin Mary) and other figures are marginalized or even removed to promote other figures. I have removed the verification and included external link to the verification. If you disagree feel free to remove the external link but please cite contrary sources that Lilith was added post hoc to biblical references.-- Ffocuser 17:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the unreferenced politically correct handwringing in the intro is a bit POV. I don't think a wikipedia article is the right place for moralising about whether a concept is PC or not. Colin4C 12:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC):
This article is absolutely terrible. It is full of original research and speculation, and makes no attempt to act as an informed or structured introduction to the topic. It reads like an essay, and a poorly-referenced essay at that - the sort of thing a high-school student might cobble together from Google at the last minute. I have tried to clean up its tone a bit but there isn't much that can be done without adding a lot more in terms of decent academic or published sources to back up some of these claims. It would be a good idea for anyone thinking of contributing to this article to have a skim of WP:NOT#OR and WP:NOR. -- TinaSparkle 12:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Keats addresses this issue in one of his poems La Belle Dame sans Merci: A Ballad. He is ambiguous enough in the poem that it is not clear whether the woman he met was really a femme fatale, or whether he just sees her as one. Also, as the theme progressed in literature, it changed a little. Especially after/during WWI, poets started writing about women as talking men into going to war, and thus to their deaths (Siegfried Sassoon's Glory of Women and Yeats' No Second Troy). In other words, different ages use the theme in different ways.
I, personally, don't think this article has OR problems (maybe it's changed since I got here), just in-line citation problems. I guess we just need to find the sources for the statements in the ref section at the bottom, or elsewhere. Wrad 03:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
There is something of central importance to the conception of a femme fatale missing from what is on offer here that has nothing to do with sexism or political correctness, but everything to do with the reality of gender difference. A femme fatale is able to ensnare men and/or bend them to her will precisely because men are susceptible to such exploitation. It is a man's own 'fatal defect'--his own weakness--skilfully turned to advantage by a femme fatale that gives her an ascendancy over him. This may seem obvious--so obvious that the article neglects to mention it--but unless the parasitic dependency of the femme fatale phenomenon is acknowledged it remains unintelligible. A femme fatale cannot advance her own interests by coercion; she can only do so by encouraging men to undermine themselves for her sake. She plays an agency role and is the beneficiary in the relationship, but the fatal flaw which allows her to succeed is contributed by men themselves. Analogically, we can liken a femme fatale to a computer hacker who is 'dangerous' only to systems that have exploitable flaws to begin with and thus lend themselves to being hacked.
";he, the femme fatale today is still often described as having a power akin to an enchantress" TYPO? The "he," at the beginning seems to be spurious and the passage reads correctly without it. (Please delete this paragraph if you fix the problem in the article)
I would say Carmen fits the description almost perfectly. 24.226.77.23 ( talk) 05:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
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The devil in the Ninth Gate, night-elf archer of Warcraft 3, the lead character in Heavenly Sword, Lucia von Bardas, Dark Elves and Morene Strident in Kingdom Under Fire, Buki of the Sudeki, Selenia of Arthur and the Minimoys, Inara Serra of Firefly (see Firefly (TV series) ), Lara Croft of Tomb Raider, the sorceress appearing in specific episode of Skyland, the sorceress apearing in Ben10, the female caracter in The 5th element, Suki of Avatar, Willow of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the lead caracter of Tabula Rasa, princess Farah/Elika in Prince of Persia ( Allies from the Prince of Persia series#Princess Farah), Jade of Beyond Good and Evil ( Beyond Good & Evil (video game)), Alyx Vance of Half Life 2 ( Alyx Vance), the female caracters in terminator:the sarah connor chronicles, ... ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.246.174.158 ( talk) 08:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Other near femme Fatales are Twilight Zone's "The Queen of the Nile", La Belle Dame sans Merci; Kolchak: The Night Stalker episodes "Demon In Lace" and "The Youth Killer" of fatales who kill/drain men with black magic to stay eternally young; a variation was the Sci-Fi series Otherworld episode "Paradise Lost" and "Star Trek" Cartoon series episode The Lorelei Signal in which the villians use science instead of magic for eternal youth/and or seduce men.
Both dictionary.com and m-w.com have prerecorded audio files where the speaker pronounces the word 'fehm' fatale. Is there a citation for the pronunciation 'fahm' fatal being most common and in standard usage? I have indeed hear both pronunciations personally... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.105.5 ( talk) 01:24, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
" James Bond" isn't mentioned once in this article. TheListUpdater ( talk) 01:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
This sentence bugs me a lot: "The ideas involved are closely tied to fears of the female witch and misogyny[1] while, according the History of Television.ca, a Canadian website which outlines television's history, the femme fatale "remains an example of female independence and a threat to traditional female gender roles".[2]"
Besides having grammatical errors, it is incorrect. The citation is linked to History Television's website, which is a Canadian television station's website, not a website about the history of television. Since this is my first time here, I'm not going to edit it, but I thought I'd point that out for someone who is more comfortable to do so. Upsidedown i ( talk) 06:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)Upsideown_i
I removed the incorrect sentence but I kept the citation in, because the reference link is itself correct. Upsidedown i ( talk) 18:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Will editors please discuss their reasons for deleting paragraphs in the article here on the talk page and try to reach a concensus view before doing so. Thanks. Colin4C ( talk) 17:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
And where do you get the idea that female mythical figures instantly qualify as femme fatales? It is not mentioned or implied anywhere in the paragraphs you have deleted:
Seeing as you are getting personal about this I'd like to inform you that I do use my head which is why one of my articles is the 300th featured article on the wikipedia and why my stuff on Roman religion is published by the the Cambridge University Press. Your talk of "pollution" is uncivil and rhetorical and bullying. Most of the stuff in this para comes from Praz and can be referenced. Colin4C ( talk) 18:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
To demontrate that it is not "ridiculous" or "polluting" to say that Lilith is a femme fatale and a succubus here's some stuff by scholars with regard to Lilith being both: "In Eastern tradition Lilith, as princess of the succubi is primarily a seductress of men" (Praz: 282) "Lilith is the Semitic name for the beautiful and licentious unmarried harlot who seduces men in streets and field" - (Stephen H. Langdon Tammuz and Ishtar OUP: 74) Colin4C ( talk) 19:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
References
While it may be appropriate to append noinclude text, it should follow the same rules as any other. No need to shout or command. Naturally a well referenced fact would be worthy of inclusion, therefor, simply stating "Do not put something into this article" is not as accurate as "do not put this in unless well referenced". That is the basis of my last reversion to this article. Cheers My76 Strat 04:25, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
The "In Popular Culture" section needs a major overhaul. For one, it reads as a list, without any specifics about what makes each character a femme fatale. It also seems that whoever wrote it has decided (without citation) that Femme Fatale now means simply "strong female" or "heroic female." At least half of the examples given are not in any way femme fatales. And that's not to mention the numerous spelling errors and odd sentence structure.
Can someone go through that entry and rewrite it so that it's an article rather than a list, and remove all the false examples (which is over HALF of them)? Whenever I try to remove the false examples or simply undo the additions (which were made by a single user on Nov 2), it triggers it as vandalism. Why can false and uncited information be added in bulk so easily, but to remove it flags it as vandalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.24.162.214 ( talk) 04:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I came here to see if anyone had said the same thing. That section is terrible. Whoever wrote it seems to be listing female characters almost at random -- anyone who's "strong" and anyone who's attractive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.192.41 ( talk) 22:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
The first half of this sentence is uninteresting (so she used the phrase, big deal) and the latter half is gibberish, so I removed it. — Tamfang ( talk) 22:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
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I would like to contend that some of the examples listed do not meet the qualifications of a femme fatale as defined by the article. Sean Young's character in Blade Runner is, if anything, the OPPOSITE of a femme fatale, a complete innocent incapable of manipulating anyone into anything. Similar is Isabella Rossellini's character in Blue Velvet. She is a victim of circumstance, and is more of a target for Kyle McLachlan's character than a seductress herself. Also, one of the 'femme fatale's' listed as played by Marion Cotillard - her character in Midnight in Paris - is not a femme fatale at all. The other examples I can not speak for as I either agree with them or are not familiar with them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.201.233.177 ( talk) 12:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Femme fatale/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Honestly one of the better articles on a literary type. Not GA, though. Just needs more development. Wrad 03:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 03:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 15:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
How do you call a male equivalent of the femme fatale? How about a link to it? Thy -- SvenAERTS ( talk) 03:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Malle Fatale? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.54.123.96 ( talk) 16:46, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
> The phrase is French for "fatal woman".
Fatal woman does not convey the same meaning in English. Better would be "deadly woman" or "lethal woman". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.90.50.2 ( talk) 07:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Can you add femme fatales in Indian cinema such as Waheeda Rehman in CID (1956 film). [1]
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Can you make like an example of femme fatale
Character | Portrayed by | Movie | Date | References Misshampleton ( talk) 22:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC) |
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Character | Portrayed by | Movie | Date | References Misshampleton ( talk) 22:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC) |
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I’ve just gone through the Examples section; I’ve split a number of entries which combined different characters from different films played by the same actress, as it is the character who is the femme fatale, not the actress. I've also promoted the Examples sub-section to a full section, and split the tables into Film and Television sub-sections, to make editing easier. I trust everyone is OK with that. Swanny18 ( talk) 17:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Over the past few months this article has become a clothes rack for for a long list of supposed examples added by a now-blocked user. user:Drmies removed the list in October, and it has been restored without comment by an IP. I agree with the removal and am removing it again. Meters ( talk) 07:09, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
perhaps we should also have an article on the Homme Fatale aka the Femme Fatale's male counterpart, a seductive man who uses his handsome charm and smile to lure women into deadly traps, and dig in a bit deeper into what also makes them deadly Hewwoh ( talk) 01:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
The new edits from that section were removed with the summary "rv. we already have excessive examples". I reverted them back. The new edits are focused on discussing more prominently the example of Phyllis Dietrichson (portrayed by Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity). I believe any section discussing the era of classic film noirs (1940s and 1950s) needs to focus on this character, because it is a character which is considered an archetype of the femme fatale (this is sourced) and Double Indemnity is one of the most emblematic examples of a film depicting a femme fatale (the film is centered on the actions of the femme fatale, unlike other films where the femme fatale plays a more minor role). If you believe that there are too many examples in that section (and in other sections) than feel free to trim and improve the section/article (only two more examples were added by the new edits; the example of Phyllis Dietrichson was already there, the edits only expanded on it), but I don't think the whole revert was justified. Please discuss this here, rather than doing a full revert. The section is not perfect, but neither was it in good shape before the new edits. 2A02:2F0F:B110:B500:D59C:C464:85DB:941C ( talk) 14:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
This section is unusually thin. I came here to learn more only to find just about nothing. The topic is fascinating, but poorly understood. My guess is that the origins of the idea are the most interesting of all, yet there is nothing here. Viriditas ( talk) 09:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)