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In the definition section it says: "Fascist philosophies vary by application, but remain distinct by one theoretic commonality. All traditionally fall into the far-right sector of any political spectrum, catalyzed by afflicted class identities over conventional social inequities.[46]" I could not find anything remotely close to this in the referenced article neither in words nor in spirit. If others agree it may be worth removing it. Or did the actual reference get lost somewhere?-- Technokratisch ( talk) 12:19, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
While I was in that section I noticed a CN tag on a statement about Italian fascism coming out of WWI national syndicalism. I know Reid Ross covers this at length in Against the Fascist Creep but while it's my personal favourite history of the political philosophy, due in part to its care to assessing the philosophical basis of the ideology, I understand why Reid Ross' book is not used as a preferred source (while it's a work of scholarship it's one written by a Geographer and published by an Anarchist press) - do we have another source that works for this history? Because that CN tag really doesn't need to be there. We should be able to easily find a citation for that. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:42, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm looking into who is claiming the copyright on the image of history's two most infamous fascists, but in the meantime could somebody please find a public domain image we could use to replace it? Simonm223 ( talk) 16:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
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In the first paragraph fascism is referred to as specifically (right-wing) on the first line of the paragraph and (far-right) on the last line, this is false information, fascism can and has been both left and right wing, request these statements to be changed to (left or right wing) Mikej321 ( talk) 17:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
The protected article on fascism has incorrect information. Some examples include claiming fascism is on the far right when it is on the far left, and that fascism opposes Marxism when it was actually the based off of it. The lack of mention to Giovanni Gentile as the creator of fascism is also particularly concerning. Some of the material and facts on this page appear to have been heavily altered for political reasons, which is VERY concerning. Thank you for taking notice of this complaint and please fix the errors. ProGamer116 ( talk) 01:57, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
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The idea of a linear left to right political spectrum is stupid, but in those terms, fascism would be left-wing. Contrary to popular belief, fascism can be most accurately defined as the political belief that the state is more important than the individual. This belief is what allowed fascists to justify pursuing "racial purification" of humanity. They considered the individual rights of those they killed as less important than the greater good that they fervently believed would come to humanity through the supremacy of a certain race. Essentially, fascism focussed on community, rather than the individual, which is undoubtedly a hallmark of the left wing.
In fact, Nazi is an acronym for National SOCIALIST German Worker's Party. (In German) Obviously a self-declared socialist worker's party is very clearly left-wing.
Also, the right-wing is always considered to be more focused on religion than the left, and fascist states were bitterly opposed to religion. The Nazis actually set up a religion called positive christianity which incorporated racial elements and the swastika, and was intended to gradually move Germany away from Christianity toward "mystical Darwinist vitalism" based on ancient Vedic (aryan) rituals. Mussolini was forced to cooperate with the Catholic Church to some extent because the Italian people were overwhelmingly devout Catholics. However, on a personal level, Mussolini was always very contemptuous of religion, and often privately referred to priests as "black flies".
Finally, when fascism was on the rise throughout Europe, it was the ideology of young liberals, based on bold new ideas like eugenics that conservatives shunned. Politicalunbiased ( talk) 22:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
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Change right wing to centrist. Fascism is not right wing because it has both parts of right and left ideology. State ownership is not right wing. And that is a fundamental building block of an ideology. To be factually accurate at least change it to right wing ideology with many left leaning ideals. 2600:8807:E80:2B30:43E:3C28:419B:FC82 ( talk) 17:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
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remove right-wing, fascism does not equal right-wing nor vice versa 71.6.36.86 ( talk) 23:56, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Not done Please refer to the large note "Fascism is a right wing ideology" at the top of this page. --
DanielRigal (
talk)
01:49, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
For years the treatment of "right wing" and "fascism" has been neutral in this article. The last sentence of the first para of the Lede had:
Within the past month, the Lede was changed without any additional/new WP:RS so the the first sentence reads:
Prior to February 24, the Lede read:
Merriam dictionary is used as RS but it does not support our treatment of the term: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Changes:
Again, no new RS was added to make this amendment to the definition of fascism. The article's definition remained stable for years with the previous, neutral wording.
I'd like to see the direct quotations from RS that supports this change, not just a claim that "everyone says so". petrarchan47 คุ ก 19:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
My question is whether RS supports this change, and since no RS has been added or cited, it appears to me that the change was made based on personal opinions alone. Please show the RS used to make the change. petrarchan47 คุ ก 19:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
What about RS around Mussolini, who after all instituted Fascism. He was arrested on 2 Socialist protests and edited Socialist newspapers, including Avante for 5 years until 1917. He supported war to overthrow the European Royal families, thus allowing the promotion of Socialism across Europe. His support for the war split the Italian Socialists, and led to him becoming Fascist. What in Mussolini's history supports him being Right Wing? Genuine question, because he seems to be Socialist to the core. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 00:15, 19 March 2019 (UTC) /info/en/?search=Benito_Mussolini
Mussolini was of the Marxist school of Fascism, as per RS [1] 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 00:39, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
the standard versions of fascism originate broadly from two schools: the Marxist and the non-Marxist, he's clearly talking about how different scholars analyze fascism. Just look at the very next sentences:
Or the paragraph after the next:The Marxist versions are easily more incisive than the non-Marxist ones. The interest of non-Marxist scholars, moreover, in the issue of fascism receded with the memories of Hitler's regime, and thereafter they took only a peripheral academic interest in the problem.
Since that's just a preview I can't see the rest of the document, but I'd be very surprised if the author suddenly changed his terminology so completely. He appears to be setting up a dialogue between two schools of thought on the subject of fascism, which he will use to inform his own analysis. Can you quote the specific section where he says that fascism under Mussolini was Marxist? Red Rock Canyon ( talk) 02:18, 19 March 2019 (UTC)The non-Marxist scholars have usually stressed the anti-democratic nature of fascism, and on the basis of its manifest authoritarian structure they establish a close similarity between the Third Reich and the Communist states. This bracketing is patently superficial as it does not distinguish between the variant economic and social correlates of the two systems.... Marxist scholars have usually settled on the blatant suppression of Left democratic organs by Hitler as the lynchpin not only of their attacks on fascism but also of their analysis of this phenomenon.
The source states "The standard versions of fascism originate broadly from two schools: the Marxist and the non-Marxist". Mussolini spent years as a Marxist. It would seem only reasonable that the fascism originated by a near life long proponent of Marxism was influenced by Marxism. Suggest another logical scenario! Either way, given there is a school of Socialism originating from Marxism, as per the link, and as per history, then it is stupid to label Fascism as being only right wing, which is the point of this Talk. Fascism can be right wing, left wing, and as per our (I imagine Italian Fascist at the bottom of this discussion page) Third Way Centrist Fascism. Locking the page to defend a political position from your left wing perspective is in contradiction to the facts. Such vandalism to uphold a belief is what weakens the credibility of Wikipedia. 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 11:23, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
How do I grossly misread the direct quote: "The standard versions of fascism originate broadly from two schools: the Marxist and the non-Marxist", the conclusion of this sentence is self evident, unless you come to it with preconceived belief. 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 12:01, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
No other definiton other than wikipedia has any reference to this. Everything I have read in the talk and in the change history suggest such references in this article are personal opinion and in particular references to far-right appear to come from left leaning (Based on their own comments here) editors: Ritchie92, Simonm223, Rjensen, Aquillion, Doug Weller, DanielRigal, Orangemike, & in particular Red Rock Canyon.
Several times Aquillion & Simonm223 claim that various references are not Reliable Source because the authors are biased right-wing while using references from left-wing authors as the sole "WP:RS" fot the inclusion of political spectrum and in particular fascism being far-right in the article. If authors and research from right-wing authors is WP:FRINGE and there-fore not a reliable source, then would it not be the same for left-wing authors[names redacted]. Thus making the categorization of fascism as far-right supported by un-reliable sources and therefore personal opinion. Categorization as either far-right or far-left is bias and the article should avoid politically motivated bias. 76.84.149.190 ( talk) 12:35, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Dan
Just checked Communism article, no where in lead is it defined as left or right is just states what it is. Fascism should probably follow same template since it is all over the place. Sourcerery ( talk) 18:02, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Why are we wasting time on this nonsense yet again? Please can we get a FAQ added to the top of this page and just refer people to that. Many of the people disputing that Fascism is right-wing are deliberately trolling or POV pushing in bad faith and do not deserve our attention. We can't assume bad faith in all cases though. Some of them are likely to be the confused victims of some very aggressive contemporary propaganda seeking to redefine Fascism, contrary to the settled academic consensus, as left wing (or "centerist", whatever the hell that is meant to mean) for blatantly tactical political reasons. A few others may be very naive conservatives who, knowing themselves not to be Fascist, assume that it can not possibly be of the right. A FAQ is the best way for us to provide decent, concise, referenced answers to those who actually want answers, and to just brush off the trolls, all without excessive repeated effort on our part. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 17:28, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I kinda agree and think it should be defined as opportunistic, probably roughly on the center, although highly authoritarian. I agree that left or right is meaningless since Benito Mussolini would change positions as he deemed useful. It is seen in sections Unprincipled opportunism, Ideological dishonesty. Also I don't think it opposed Marxism per say but only some elements of it, while embracing others so I think that is inaccurate. This is little dicey topic so I would define it as opportunistic (keep in mind socialism was in vogue and popular at the time and he was happy to embrace elements of it), populist (make trains run on time), authoritarian, with Roman and nationalistic element, later Nazi elements. I don't think it is such a clear cut ideology and can be even contradictory at time. Sourcerery ( talk) 16:22, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
After far too much research done for far too long, I've come to the conclusion that almost everyone that has made any kind of comment on this page is using more opinion than fact. Fascism is inherently anti-Left and anti-Right wing. Fascism has had both Left and Right wing people in leadership positions, but the ideology in itself is incredibly obvious. Centrist. It does not prescribe to Left or Right wing ideologies. It is the very enemy of both. I read too many threads of constant blaming and forcing the burden on others. Both sides are so fixated on naming Fascism as the other's ideology when it doesn't even fit on either side. The economic and Social politics are Authoritarian Centrist. Yes, there were Libertarians, Left, and Right wing people that worked under Fascism, but Fascism's fundamental core belief system is Centrist.
ArcusLordOfGods (
talk)
06:36, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello. As someone who self identifies as fascist I'm slightly insulted that you call it a right wing ideology. Fascism is nothing more than authoritarian centrism. Indeed, it's nothing more than authoritarian populism. Fascism is merely a way to organize a state, and then provides guidelines for the state's intervention in the economy. Nothing more, nothing less. We can certainly debate whether or not the characters who espoused the glorious creed of fascism were right or left wing, but fascism is a centrist ideology pertaining only to the organization of government. Cheers
Baldr The Brave (
talk) 13:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC) (
User blocked as sockpuppet. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk)
02:49, 21 April 2019 (UTC))
So I'm guessing fascist literature is out of the question then ? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Baldr The Brave (
talk •
contribs)
15:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm not trolling friend. I unironically support fascist ideology and government. And the funny thing is that fascism is not extremism (perhaps you are confusing it with national socialism?) it is merely a way of organising the government. You confuse the ideology of fascism with those who've practiced it.Cheers
Baldr The Brave (
talk)
16:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Removed large note "Fascism is a right wing ideology" placed by Red Rock Canyon as it is WP:NPOV and violates the requirement to avoid stating opinions as facts. 76.84.149.190 ( talk) 12:42, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Dan
Suggesting different wording: Anti-democratic and dictatorial/dictatorship. Tyrant is kinda like absolute monarch which Mussolini never was in true sense. He was responsible to king, to Adolf Hitler. Not even nominally can Mussolini be considered tyrant. Sourcerery ( talk) 15:58, 26 March 2019 (UTC) - Strike that he doesn't even qualify as dictator in full sense of term but kinda does nominally. Anti-democratic and authoritative is probably best wording. Sourcerery ( talk) 18:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Is that first picture on article? Editor reverted my edit because it's header picture apparently that I changed, seeking to make it consistent with other political ideology articles. I would like to know as to avoid changing something so important without consensus. Sourcerery ( talk) 17:25, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
--- I agree that they are iconic, there is no disputing that. I am fine either way, just wanted to make this ideology lead image consistent with lead images on other ideologies ( Communism, Nazism). Thank you for clarifying term. Sourcerery ( talk) 19:31, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
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In actuality, Facism is more aligned with liberal, leftist ideologies than right-wing. See the actual, real definition provided by reliable sources " totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life. " Israel Wright ( talk) 21:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
How no one pointed this out? This article has so much copyright it's unbelievable? Aside from flat out made up quotes amount of copyright is beyond belief. Articles I created have sections copystriked within days. I'll just quote some of copyright so you can correct me if I'm wrong.
This is just first paragraph. Am I missing something? Are there written permissions? Sourcerery ( talk) 16:30, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
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Take out "right-wing" in definition of fascist and put left-wing. 69.178.231.103 ( talk) 13:21, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
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Fascism isn't limited to one political ideology, far right vs far left, it can be seen from both political spectrum. Please fix this. You're doing a disservice to the world by not having this correct. 168.208.215.217 ( talk) 17:43, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. There is a difference between dictatorship and fascism.
O3000 (
talk)
17:45, 16 April 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The roots of fascism are undeniably left-wing. Not right wing. Authoritarianism was typical for communism (stalin, mao, pot...). Benito Mussolini was member of the PSI, the marxist wing of it. Dinesh D'Souza, George D Watson and others have also clarified the left roots of fascism. The logical fallacy is, appeal to authority. The claim that most academics agree it was a far right politic system is not measurable nor would it change the fact that fascism was declared by Giovanni Gentile, a left-wing character. If you research him, it will become undeniably clear that fascism was based on left principles. Calling fascism right-wing is nothing but falsification of history with the sole purpose of activism i.e. making left look good and right bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.185.49.243 ( talk) 13:26, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Do reliable sources support a change to the definition of Fascism so that "right wing" is added to the first sentence of the Lede? petrarchan47 คุ ก 20:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Brief history:
Mention of "right wing" in the Lede was for years situated only at the bottom of the first paragraph:
In 2014 it read
Without changing or removing sources, in 2015 it was amended
This version remained stable until February 2019, when in addition to the "left-right spectrum" sentence, the primary definition (first sentence of Lede) changed from
to
Related discussion:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
avoid stating facts as opinions.-- Aquillion ( talk) 21:04, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
"A nationalist political movement that controlled the government of Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini (1883–1945)... The movement grew out of the nationalist fasci which became prominent at the end of the First World War (1914–18), esp. with the formation of the militantly anti-communist and anti-socialist Fasci di Combattimento by Mussolini in 1919."Definition B:
"An authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization which emerged after the end of the First World War in 1918, and became a prominent force in European politics during the 1920s and 1930s, most notably in Italy and Germany; (later also) an extreme right-wing political ideology based on the principles underlying this system... Fascism originated in Italy as an anti-communist and nationalist movement... After the defeat of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in the Second World War (1939–45), Fascism ceased to be a significant political force, although subsequently (chiefly from the 1970s) a number of extreme right-wing nationalist parties have been founded in Europe and elsewhere on similar principles."- Darouet ( talk) 01:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Unlike left-wing populism, fascist populism did not attribute workers’ hardships to big business and big landowners and did not advocate measures such as progressive taxation, higher pay for industrial and farm workers, protection of unions, and the right to strike.
Partly because they made concerted appeals to young people, fascist parties tended to have younger members than most other rightist parties.
There were a few, usually small, fascist movements whose social and economic goals were left or left-centrist.... However, the economic programs of the great majority of fascist movements were extremely conservative, favouring the wealthy far more than the middle class and the working class. Their talk of national “socialism” was quite fraudulent in this respect. Although some workers were duped by it before the fascists came to power, most remained loyal to the traditional antifascist parties of the left.
Given the opportunity, Mussolini would have been glad as late as 1920-21 to take under his wing the Italian Communists, for whom he felt great affinities: greater, certainly, than for democratic socialists, liberals and conservatives. Genetically, Fascism issued from the 'Bolshevik' wing of Italian socialism, not from any conservative ideology or movement.-- Pudeo ( talk) 08:38, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
"...militantly anti-communist and anti-socialist..."- Darouet ( talk) 20:07, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Fascists were almost all Marxists—serious theorists who had long been identified with Italy's intelligentsia of the Leftwhich is obviously based in facts like Mussolini being the editor of the Avanti! party newspaper and indeed, the leading figure of the radical left wing of the party. As Rjensen has stated, Mussolini did denounce Marxism and shifted his positions a lot after 1921, but I think we're being dishonest if we completely omit the socialist roots in the lead. What makes it more complex that modern or 'generic' fascism is not the same as Italian fascism from which the term comes from, and 'fascism' and 'Nazism' are used as synonyms. -- Pudeo ( talk) 09:53, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Left wing fascism RS [6] Clearly states that Fascist Movement in UK was left wing, or derived from mainly left wing ideology. As such description of Fascism as right wing is inaccurate. THere are multiple sources and many reasons to conclude that Fascism formed from Socialist ideals. It is certainly impossible to argue that Fascism has anything in common with right wing laissez faire Capitalism, Fascism is almost certainly an extreme left wing version of "society above the individual' and 'big government setting up cartels for business'. Arguably Fascism is steeped in left wing idealism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 11:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.They have to condense this entire article into one sentence (that being essentially what a dictionary entry is) and they chose to include the words "right-wing system of government." -- Puzzledvegetable ( talk) 19:45, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page). — Preceding
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Kevin.cook.1988 (
talk •
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12:28, 14 April 2019 (UTC)![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | → | Archive 55 |
In the definition section it says: "Fascist philosophies vary by application, but remain distinct by one theoretic commonality. All traditionally fall into the far-right sector of any political spectrum, catalyzed by afflicted class identities over conventional social inequities.[46]" I could not find anything remotely close to this in the referenced article neither in words nor in spirit. If others agree it may be worth removing it. Or did the actual reference get lost somewhere?-- Technokratisch ( talk) 12:19, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
While I was in that section I noticed a CN tag on a statement about Italian fascism coming out of WWI national syndicalism. I know Reid Ross covers this at length in Against the Fascist Creep but while it's my personal favourite history of the political philosophy, due in part to its care to assessing the philosophical basis of the ideology, I understand why Reid Ross' book is not used as a preferred source (while it's a work of scholarship it's one written by a Geographer and published by an Anarchist press) - do we have another source that works for this history? Because that CN tag really doesn't need to be there. We should be able to easily find a citation for that. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:42, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm looking into who is claiming the copyright on the image of history's two most infamous fascists, but in the meantime could somebody please find a public domain image we could use to replace it? Simonm223 ( talk) 16:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
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In the first paragraph fascism is referred to as specifically (right-wing) on the first line of the paragraph and (far-right) on the last line, this is false information, fascism can and has been both left and right wing, request these statements to be changed to (left or right wing) Mikej321 ( talk) 17:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
The protected article on fascism has incorrect information. Some examples include claiming fascism is on the far right when it is on the far left, and that fascism opposes Marxism when it was actually the based off of it. The lack of mention to Giovanni Gentile as the creator of fascism is also particularly concerning. Some of the material and facts on this page appear to have been heavily altered for political reasons, which is VERY concerning. Thank you for taking notice of this complaint and please fix the errors. ProGamer116 ( talk) 01:57, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
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The idea of a linear left to right political spectrum is stupid, but in those terms, fascism would be left-wing. Contrary to popular belief, fascism can be most accurately defined as the political belief that the state is more important than the individual. This belief is what allowed fascists to justify pursuing "racial purification" of humanity. They considered the individual rights of those they killed as less important than the greater good that they fervently believed would come to humanity through the supremacy of a certain race. Essentially, fascism focussed on community, rather than the individual, which is undoubtedly a hallmark of the left wing.
In fact, Nazi is an acronym for National SOCIALIST German Worker's Party. (In German) Obviously a self-declared socialist worker's party is very clearly left-wing.
Also, the right-wing is always considered to be more focused on religion than the left, and fascist states were bitterly opposed to religion. The Nazis actually set up a religion called positive christianity which incorporated racial elements and the swastika, and was intended to gradually move Germany away from Christianity toward "mystical Darwinist vitalism" based on ancient Vedic (aryan) rituals. Mussolini was forced to cooperate with the Catholic Church to some extent because the Italian people were overwhelmingly devout Catholics. However, on a personal level, Mussolini was always very contemptuous of religion, and often privately referred to priests as "black flies".
Finally, when fascism was on the rise throughout Europe, it was the ideology of young liberals, based on bold new ideas like eugenics that conservatives shunned. Politicalunbiased ( talk) 22:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
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Change right wing to centrist. Fascism is not right wing because it has both parts of right and left ideology. State ownership is not right wing. And that is a fundamental building block of an ideology. To be factually accurate at least change it to right wing ideology with many left leaning ideals. 2600:8807:E80:2B30:43E:3C28:419B:FC82 ( talk) 17:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
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remove right-wing, fascism does not equal right-wing nor vice versa 71.6.36.86 ( talk) 23:56, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Not done Please refer to the large note "Fascism is a right wing ideology" at the top of this page. --
DanielRigal (
talk)
01:49, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
For years the treatment of "right wing" and "fascism" has been neutral in this article. The last sentence of the first para of the Lede had:
Within the past month, the Lede was changed without any additional/new WP:RS so the the first sentence reads:
Prior to February 24, the Lede read:
Merriam dictionary is used as RS but it does not support our treatment of the term: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Changes:
Again, no new RS was added to make this amendment to the definition of fascism. The article's definition remained stable for years with the previous, neutral wording.
I'd like to see the direct quotations from RS that supports this change, not just a claim that "everyone says so". petrarchan47 คุ ก 19:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
My question is whether RS supports this change, and since no RS has been added or cited, it appears to me that the change was made based on personal opinions alone. Please show the RS used to make the change. petrarchan47 คุ ก 19:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
What about RS around Mussolini, who after all instituted Fascism. He was arrested on 2 Socialist protests and edited Socialist newspapers, including Avante for 5 years until 1917. He supported war to overthrow the European Royal families, thus allowing the promotion of Socialism across Europe. His support for the war split the Italian Socialists, and led to him becoming Fascist. What in Mussolini's history supports him being Right Wing? Genuine question, because he seems to be Socialist to the core. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 00:15, 19 March 2019 (UTC) /info/en/?search=Benito_Mussolini
Mussolini was of the Marxist school of Fascism, as per RS [1] 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 00:39, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
the standard versions of fascism originate broadly from two schools: the Marxist and the non-Marxist, he's clearly talking about how different scholars analyze fascism. Just look at the very next sentences:
Or the paragraph after the next:The Marxist versions are easily more incisive than the non-Marxist ones. The interest of non-Marxist scholars, moreover, in the issue of fascism receded with the memories of Hitler's regime, and thereafter they took only a peripheral academic interest in the problem.
Since that's just a preview I can't see the rest of the document, but I'd be very surprised if the author suddenly changed his terminology so completely. He appears to be setting up a dialogue between two schools of thought on the subject of fascism, which he will use to inform his own analysis. Can you quote the specific section where he says that fascism under Mussolini was Marxist? Red Rock Canyon ( talk) 02:18, 19 March 2019 (UTC)The non-Marxist scholars have usually stressed the anti-democratic nature of fascism, and on the basis of its manifest authoritarian structure they establish a close similarity between the Third Reich and the Communist states. This bracketing is patently superficial as it does not distinguish between the variant economic and social correlates of the two systems.... Marxist scholars have usually settled on the blatant suppression of Left democratic organs by Hitler as the lynchpin not only of their attacks on fascism but also of their analysis of this phenomenon.
The source states "The standard versions of fascism originate broadly from two schools: the Marxist and the non-Marxist". Mussolini spent years as a Marxist. It would seem only reasonable that the fascism originated by a near life long proponent of Marxism was influenced by Marxism. Suggest another logical scenario! Either way, given there is a school of Socialism originating from Marxism, as per the link, and as per history, then it is stupid to label Fascism as being only right wing, which is the point of this Talk. Fascism can be right wing, left wing, and as per our (I imagine Italian Fascist at the bottom of this discussion page) Third Way Centrist Fascism. Locking the page to defend a political position from your left wing perspective is in contradiction to the facts. Such vandalism to uphold a belief is what weakens the credibility of Wikipedia. 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 11:23, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
How do I grossly misread the direct quote: "The standard versions of fascism originate broadly from two schools: the Marxist and the non-Marxist", the conclusion of this sentence is self evident, unless you come to it with preconceived belief. 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 12:01, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
No other definiton other than wikipedia has any reference to this. Everything I have read in the talk and in the change history suggest such references in this article are personal opinion and in particular references to far-right appear to come from left leaning (Based on their own comments here) editors: Ritchie92, Simonm223, Rjensen, Aquillion, Doug Weller, DanielRigal, Orangemike, & in particular Red Rock Canyon.
Several times Aquillion & Simonm223 claim that various references are not Reliable Source because the authors are biased right-wing while using references from left-wing authors as the sole "WP:RS" fot the inclusion of political spectrum and in particular fascism being far-right in the article. If authors and research from right-wing authors is WP:FRINGE and there-fore not a reliable source, then would it not be the same for left-wing authors[names redacted]. Thus making the categorization of fascism as far-right supported by un-reliable sources and therefore personal opinion. Categorization as either far-right or far-left is bias and the article should avoid politically motivated bias. 76.84.149.190 ( talk) 12:35, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Dan
Just checked Communism article, no where in lead is it defined as left or right is just states what it is. Fascism should probably follow same template since it is all over the place. Sourcerery ( talk) 18:02, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Why are we wasting time on this nonsense yet again? Please can we get a FAQ added to the top of this page and just refer people to that. Many of the people disputing that Fascism is right-wing are deliberately trolling or POV pushing in bad faith and do not deserve our attention. We can't assume bad faith in all cases though. Some of them are likely to be the confused victims of some very aggressive contemporary propaganda seeking to redefine Fascism, contrary to the settled academic consensus, as left wing (or "centerist", whatever the hell that is meant to mean) for blatantly tactical political reasons. A few others may be very naive conservatives who, knowing themselves not to be Fascist, assume that it can not possibly be of the right. A FAQ is the best way for us to provide decent, concise, referenced answers to those who actually want answers, and to just brush off the trolls, all without excessive repeated effort on our part. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 17:28, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I kinda agree and think it should be defined as opportunistic, probably roughly on the center, although highly authoritarian. I agree that left or right is meaningless since Benito Mussolini would change positions as he deemed useful. It is seen in sections Unprincipled opportunism, Ideological dishonesty. Also I don't think it opposed Marxism per say but only some elements of it, while embracing others so I think that is inaccurate. This is little dicey topic so I would define it as opportunistic (keep in mind socialism was in vogue and popular at the time and he was happy to embrace elements of it), populist (make trains run on time), authoritarian, with Roman and nationalistic element, later Nazi elements. I don't think it is such a clear cut ideology and can be even contradictory at time. Sourcerery ( talk) 16:22, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
After far too much research done for far too long, I've come to the conclusion that almost everyone that has made any kind of comment on this page is using more opinion than fact. Fascism is inherently anti-Left and anti-Right wing. Fascism has had both Left and Right wing people in leadership positions, but the ideology in itself is incredibly obvious. Centrist. It does not prescribe to Left or Right wing ideologies. It is the very enemy of both. I read too many threads of constant blaming and forcing the burden on others. Both sides are so fixated on naming Fascism as the other's ideology when it doesn't even fit on either side. The economic and Social politics are Authoritarian Centrist. Yes, there were Libertarians, Left, and Right wing people that worked under Fascism, but Fascism's fundamental core belief system is Centrist.
ArcusLordOfGods (
talk)
06:36, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello. As someone who self identifies as fascist I'm slightly insulted that you call it a right wing ideology. Fascism is nothing more than authoritarian centrism. Indeed, it's nothing more than authoritarian populism. Fascism is merely a way to organize a state, and then provides guidelines for the state's intervention in the economy. Nothing more, nothing less. We can certainly debate whether or not the characters who espoused the glorious creed of fascism were right or left wing, but fascism is a centrist ideology pertaining only to the organization of government. Cheers
Baldr The Brave (
talk) 13:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC) (
User blocked as sockpuppet. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk)
02:49, 21 April 2019 (UTC))
So I'm guessing fascist literature is out of the question then ? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Baldr The Brave (
talk •
contribs)
15:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm not trolling friend. I unironically support fascist ideology and government. And the funny thing is that fascism is not extremism (perhaps you are confusing it with national socialism?) it is merely a way of organising the government. You confuse the ideology of fascism with those who've practiced it.Cheers
Baldr The Brave (
talk)
16:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Removed large note "Fascism is a right wing ideology" placed by Red Rock Canyon as it is WP:NPOV and violates the requirement to avoid stating opinions as facts. 76.84.149.190 ( talk) 12:42, 21 March 2019 (UTC)Dan
Suggesting different wording: Anti-democratic and dictatorial/dictatorship. Tyrant is kinda like absolute monarch which Mussolini never was in true sense. He was responsible to king, to Adolf Hitler. Not even nominally can Mussolini be considered tyrant. Sourcerery ( talk) 15:58, 26 March 2019 (UTC) - Strike that he doesn't even qualify as dictator in full sense of term but kinda does nominally. Anti-democratic and authoritative is probably best wording. Sourcerery ( talk) 18:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Is that first picture on article? Editor reverted my edit because it's header picture apparently that I changed, seeking to make it consistent with other political ideology articles. I would like to know as to avoid changing something so important without consensus. Sourcerery ( talk) 17:25, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
--- I agree that they are iconic, there is no disputing that. I am fine either way, just wanted to make this ideology lead image consistent with lead images on other ideologies ( Communism, Nazism). Thank you for clarifying term. Sourcerery ( talk) 19:31, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
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In actuality, Facism is more aligned with liberal, leftist ideologies than right-wing. See the actual, real definition provided by reliable sources " totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life. " Israel Wright ( talk) 21:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
How no one pointed this out? This article has so much copyright it's unbelievable? Aside from flat out made up quotes amount of copyright is beyond belief. Articles I created have sections copystriked within days. I'll just quote some of copyright so you can correct me if I'm wrong.
This is just first paragraph. Am I missing something? Are there written permissions? Sourcerery ( talk) 16:30, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
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Take out "right-wing" in definition of fascist and put left-wing. 69.178.231.103 ( talk) 13:21, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
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Fascism isn't limited to one political ideology, far right vs far left, it can be seen from both political spectrum. Please fix this. You're doing a disservice to the world by not having this correct. 168.208.215.217 ( talk) 17:43, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. There is a difference between dictatorship and fascism.
O3000 (
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17:45, 16 April 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The roots of fascism are undeniably left-wing. Not right wing. Authoritarianism was typical for communism (stalin, mao, pot...). Benito Mussolini was member of the PSI, the marxist wing of it. Dinesh D'Souza, George D Watson and others have also clarified the left roots of fascism. The logical fallacy is, appeal to authority. The claim that most academics agree it was a far right politic system is not measurable nor would it change the fact that fascism was declared by Giovanni Gentile, a left-wing character. If you research him, it will become undeniably clear that fascism was based on left principles. Calling fascism right-wing is nothing but falsification of history with the sole purpose of activism i.e. making left look good and right bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.185.49.243 ( talk) 13:26, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Do reliable sources support a change to the definition of Fascism so that "right wing" is added to the first sentence of the Lede? petrarchan47 คุ ก 20:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Brief history:
Mention of "right wing" in the Lede was for years situated only at the bottom of the first paragraph:
In 2014 it read
Without changing or removing sources, in 2015 it was amended
This version remained stable until February 2019, when in addition to the "left-right spectrum" sentence, the primary definition (first sentence of Lede) changed from
to
Related discussion:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
avoid stating facts as opinions.-- Aquillion ( talk) 21:04, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
"A nationalist political movement that controlled the government of Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini (1883–1945)... The movement grew out of the nationalist fasci which became prominent at the end of the First World War (1914–18), esp. with the formation of the militantly anti-communist and anti-socialist Fasci di Combattimento by Mussolini in 1919."Definition B:
"An authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization which emerged after the end of the First World War in 1918, and became a prominent force in European politics during the 1920s and 1930s, most notably in Italy and Germany; (later also) an extreme right-wing political ideology based on the principles underlying this system... Fascism originated in Italy as an anti-communist and nationalist movement... After the defeat of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in the Second World War (1939–45), Fascism ceased to be a significant political force, although subsequently (chiefly from the 1970s) a number of extreme right-wing nationalist parties have been founded in Europe and elsewhere on similar principles."- Darouet ( talk) 01:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Unlike left-wing populism, fascist populism did not attribute workers’ hardships to big business and big landowners and did not advocate measures such as progressive taxation, higher pay for industrial and farm workers, protection of unions, and the right to strike.
Partly because they made concerted appeals to young people, fascist parties tended to have younger members than most other rightist parties.
There were a few, usually small, fascist movements whose social and economic goals were left or left-centrist.... However, the economic programs of the great majority of fascist movements were extremely conservative, favouring the wealthy far more than the middle class and the working class. Their talk of national “socialism” was quite fraudulent in this respect. Although some workers were duped by it before the fascists came to power, most remained loyal to the traditional antifascist parties of the left.
Given the opportunity, Mussolini would have been glad as late as 1920-21 to take under his wing the Italian Communists, for whom he felt great affinities: greater, certainly, than for democratic socialists, liberals and conservatives. Genetically, Fascism issued from the 'Bolshevik' wing of Italian socialism, not from any conservative ideology or movement.-- Pudeo ( talk) 08:38, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
"...militantly anti-communist and anti-socialist..."- Darouet ( talk) 20:07, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Fascists were almost all Marxists—serious theorists who had long been identified with Italy's intelligentsia of the Leftwhich is obviously based in facts like Mussolini being the editor of the Avanti! party newspaper and indeed, the leading figure of the radical left wing of the party. As Rjensen has stated, Mussolini did denounce Marxism and shifted his positions a lot after 1921, but I think we're being dishonest if we completely omit the socialist roots in the lead. What makes it more complex that modern or 'generic' fascism is not the same as Italian fascism from which the term comes from, and 'fascism' and 'Nazism' are used as synonyms. -- Pudeo ( talk) 09:53, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Left wing fascism RS [6] Clearly states that Fascist Movement in UK was left wing, or derived from mainly left wing ideology. As such description of Fascism as right wing is inaccurate. THere are multiple sources and many reasons to conclude that Fascism formed from Socialist ideals. It is certainly impossible to argue that Fascism has anything in common with right wing laissez faire Capitalism, Fascism is almost certainly an extreme left wing version of "society above the individual' and 'big government setting up cartels for business'. Arguably Fascism is steeped in left wing idealism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.160.19 ( talk) 11:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.They have to condense this entire article into one sentence (that being essentially what a dictionary entry is) and they chose to include the words "right-wing system of government." -- Puzzledvegetable ( talk) 19:45, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page). — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kevin.cook.1988 (
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contribs)
12:28, 14 April 2019 (UTC)