Currently on-going is an edit war between NPOV and FLG editors. Colipon+( T) 03:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
"Although Wikipedia is accessible in China, certain pages are filtered. Nobel peace prize recipient Liu Xiaobo and dissident artist Ai Weiwei's pages were blocked by Chinese authorities. Events like the Tiananmen Square riots or religious cults like Falun Gong cannot be openly discussed online in China." https://www.vice.com/read/wikipedia-founders-uncompromising-stance-on-censorship-and-users-privacy Here Jimmy was criticizing the Chinese communist government. The word cult has quite different meanings and has no negative implications in Jimmy's line. if someone wants to refer Jimmy"s words, it has to reflect the line, and should not be only one word. Marvin 2009 ( talk) 00:44, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Falun Gong practitioners in China are reportedly subject to a wide range of human rights abuses: hundreds of thousands are estimated to have been imprisoned extrajudicially, and practitioners in detention are subject to forced labor, psychiatric abuse, torture, and other coercive methods of thought reform at the hands of Chinese authorities. As of 2009, human rights groups estimated that at least 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners had died as a result of abuse in custody.[4] Some observers put the number much higher, and report that tens of thousands may have been killed to supply China's organ transplant industry.[5][6] In the years since the persecution began, Falun Gong practitioners have become active in advocating for greater human rights in China.
However, these claims have no evidence at all and I think we should delete it. You can read the US congress report:
https://file.wikileaks.org/file/crs/RL33437.pdf
Raintwoto 20:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto ( talk • contribs)
I think we should add this interesting evidence from the interview of the Founder Li Hongzhi in Time.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html
TIME: Why does chaos reign now?
TIME: Why does chaos reign now? Li: Of course there is not just one reason. The biggest cause of society's change today is that people no longer believe in orthodox religion. They go to church, but they no longer believe in God. They feel free to do anything. The second reason is that since the beginning of this century, aliens have begun to invade the human mind and its ideology and culture.
TIME: Where do they come from? Li: The aliens come from other planets. The names that I use for these planets are different . Some are from dimensions that human beings have not yet discovered. The key is how they have corrupted mankind. Everyone knows that from the beginning until now, there has never been a development of culture like today. Although it has been several thousand years, it has never been like now.
The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science.
The ultimate purpose is to replace humans. If cloning human beings succeeds, the aliens can officially replace humans. Why does a corpse lie dead, even though it is the same as a living body? The difference is the soul, which is the life of the body. If people reproduce a human person, the gods in heaven will not give its body a human soul. The aliens will take that opportunity to replace the human soul and by doing so they will enter earth and become earthlings.
When such people grow up, they will help replace humans with aliens. They will produce more and more clones. There will no longer be humans reproduced by humans. They will act like humans, but they will introduce legislation to stop human reproduction.
TIME: Are you a human being? Li: You can think of me as a human being.
TIME: Are you from earth? Li: I don't wish to talk about myself at a higher level. People wouldn't understand it.
TIME: What are the aliens after? Li: The aliens use many methods to keep people from freeing themselves from manipulation. They make earthlings have wars and conflicts, and develop weapons using science, which makes mankind more dependent on advanced science and technology. In this way, the aliens will be able to introduce their stuff and make the preparations for replacing human beings. The military industry leads other industries such as computers and electronics.
TIME: But what is the alien purpose? Li: The human body is the most perfect in the universe. It is the most perfect form. The aliens want the human body.
TIME: What do aliens look like? Li: Some look similar to human beings. U.S. technology has already detected some aliens. The difference between aliens can be quite enormous.
TIME: Can you describe it? Li: You don't want to have that kind of thought in your mind.
TIME: Describe them anyway. Li: One type looks like a human, but has a nose that is made of bone. Others look like ghosts. At first they thought that I was trying to help them. Now they now that I am sweeping them away.,
TIME: How do you see the future? Li: Future human society is quite terrifying. If aliens are not to replace human beings, society will destroy itself on its own. Industry is creating invisible air pollution. The microparticles in the air harm human beings. The abnormality in the climate today is caused by that [pollution], and it cannot be remedied by humans alone. The drinking water is polluted. No matter how we try to purify it, it cannot return to its original purity. Modern science cannot determine the extent of the damage. The food we eat is the product of fertilized soil. The meat we eat is affected. I can foresee a future when human limbs become deformed, the body's joints won't move and internal organs will become dysfunctional. Modern science hasn't realized this yet.
At the beginning you asked why I did such things. I only tell practitioners, but not the public because they cannot comprehend it. I am trying to save those people who can return to a high level and to a high moral level. Modern science does not understand this, so governments can do nothing. The only person in the entire world who knows this is myself alone.
I am not against the public knowing, but I am teaching practitioners. Even though the public knows, it cannot do anything about it. People can't free themselves from science and from their concepts. I am not against science. I am only telling mankind the truth. I drive a car. I also live in the environment. Don't believe that I am against science. But I know that modern science is destroying mankind. Aliens have already constructed a layer of cells in human beings. The development of computers dictates this layer of body cells to control human culture and spirituality and in the end to replace human beings.
Raintwoto 20:09, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
nice quotes. it seems here there are two issues at play. 1) what does falun gong teach about science? 2) what's with the alien thing?
number one is presumably a broad topic, since someone above said there are 2,000+ pages of teachings, so we can stick to aliens for now.
right now my main question is: it's unclear how much more relevant this is in the falun gong corpus of beliefs than if Li had said something against eating meat, or pick any other topic out of a hat. there is a non sequitur aspect to it all without a clear statement by a chinese religious/flg expert explaining how it's central to the falun gong belief system or lifestyle (or whatever). where is that statement? Happy monsoon day 19:34, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
apologies - i kinda thought this was done. your last comment confused me, so i didn't realise it was a substantive point to advance your general argument.
the logic here is that because the communist party's use of scientistic propaganda against falun gong is cited in the article, the article must therefore include information about how falun gong believes in aliens manipulating science, because this is proof that the ccp's attacks on falun gong as being anti-science are not merely propaganda - that falun gong is indeed anti-science, as demonstrated by its crazy alien beliefs. right?
firstly, this sounds like a textbook original synthesis. secondly, i'm not even sure it makes sense. thirdly, content decisions should be made on the basis of encyclopedic judgement, due weight, and what the preponderance of reliable sources say about an issue. if there was a source which said 1) flg views on aliens are a central component of its teachings and 2) this is important because it shows the ccp's attacks against them was not just cynical propaganda but instead should be evaluated more seriously, etc. etc. ..... well then I could see how we have a case.
right now I find the logic somewhat tortured, and my main objection remains: there's nothing indicating this is a core teaching, and multiple indications that it's a side teaching. as I say, i'd have no objection helping craft something on it in the page that's actually about flg beliefs. this is just my view on the matter. Happy monsoon day 18:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
No one has claimed that Falun Gong's views on science are not a fundamental part of the teachings. I said that belief in aliens is not a fundamental part of the teachings. Falun Gong does have a fair bit to say in relation to science that is completely unrelated to its supposed extraterrestrial provenance. Ownby's book includes a whole 7-page section describing Falun Gong's views on and relationship to science, and it contains not one mention of aliens. Instead, Li's main critique of science is that it is but one knowledge system, that is is 'epistemologically incapable of validating their own claims to authority', and is limited in its ability to explain life and the universe. Other critiques focus on the environmental degradation that modern science has wrought, or the fact that it's incapable of proving moral truths. But Li never rejects science; he sort of co-opts it while simultaneously suggesting that it is very limited. He's Ownby:
This article actually seems to capture this point pretty well.
For future reference, if people don't reply to you, it's not necessarily evidence that you have won an argument. It might just be that you have failed to convince people, and they have resolved to move on. TheBlueCanoe 13:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
References
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
From the readings and what I have been able to find online(news and articles) Fulon Gong doesn't seem to have any core tenets needed from a religion, it is mostly a combination of exercises, philosophies on life/living and motions and is in that aspect more akin to Yoga and Martial arts than a religion, it is at best a sect of Taoism or Buddhism, not a separate religion on its own. Practitioners of Fulon Gong are not required to revoke their previous faiths, and it doesn't have any religious laws or restrictions, nor is it controlled by any central authority in any form at any level, other than planning practice meetings and rallies.
I would club it in the same Pseudo-Religion/"self help group organised as religion" family as Scientology. Exercise regiments and pop-psychological self diagnosis doesn't make you a religion.
It has more in common with a Martial Art like Tai Chi or Yoga(not considered a Martial Art). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.75.41.49 ( talk) 13:20, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
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TheBlueCanoe Last time I was asked for secondary sources instead of primary. I provided them. Is another problem being manufactured? Rajmaan ( talk) 04:38, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
@ Whaterss: can you elaborate which parts of this article read like an advert and why? – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 11:03, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
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There is a more-or-less permanent exhibition at the Sibelius Monument (Helsinki): [7]. Not sure of this is notable. It really does seem quite incongruous when one visits. Martinevans123 ( talk) 13:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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There is a more-or-less permanent exhibition at the Sibelius Monument (Helsinki): [8]. Not sure of this is notable. It really does seem quite incongruous when one visits. Martinevans123 ( talk) 13:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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Unicornblood2018 recently inserted content that dramatically shifted the POV of the article by emphasizing some WP:FRINGE beliefs that Falun Gong supposedly holds, such as Li's divine status and the existence of aliens. I removed the edits because they were mostly identical to this source and re-merged some details from the source to the appropriate section in the lede.
My question is: should there be mention of WP:FRINGE beliefs that Falun Gong supposedly holds? Given that this article has weathered a lot of controversy, the current version of the article is a product of compromise and consensus and dramatically shifting its POV would demand a very legitimate reason. Inserting information about Falun Gong's WP:FRINGE beliefs would create a more negative tone, a tone that isn't present in the current article. How we would insert such information without violating WP:NPOV when the topic is so controversial and most information comes either from the Chinese government or from Falun Gong-linked sources is another major question.
Some reliable sources discuss Falun Gong's WP:FRINGE beliefs, including a TIME article that describes its belief that aliens are introducing modern technology in order to start cloning humans, and that a cloned human wouldn't have a soul, with the end game being a total replacement of humanity with human bodies possessed by aliens. [1] To what extent these beliefs are notable is up for debate. Leugen9001 ( talk) 16:16, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
References
There's nothing good to say about these edits- the "something of a cause célèbre among human-rights groups and the anti-China crowd" comment is editorializing and synthesis, at best. The lack of judgment demonstrated in promoting the "evil cult" characterization to the lead is incredible- there's no "good faith" interpretation of that act - it's just vandalism.
Our job is to summarize relevant material, considering the credibility of sources, for readers to consider. Conclusions are the reader's purview. Mavigogun ( talk) 03:03, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Mavigogun ( talk) 05:03, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
References
Currently on-going is an edit war between NPOV and FLG editors. Colipon+( T) 03:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
"Although Wikipedia is accessible in China, certain pages are filtered. Nobel peace prize recipient Liu Xiaobo and dissident artist Ai Weiwei's pages were blocked by Chinese authorities. Events like the Tiananmen Square riots or religious cults like Falun Gong cannot be openly discussed online in China." https://www.vice.com/read/wikipedia-founders-uncompromising-stance-on-censorship-and-users-privacy Here Jimmy was criticizing the Chinese communist government. The word cult has quite different meanings and has no negative implications in Jimmy's line. if someone wants to refer Jimmy"s words, it has to reflect the line, and should not be only one word. Marvin 2009 ( talk) 00:44, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Falun Gong practitioners in China are reportedly subject to a wide range of human rights abuses: hundreds of thousands are estimated to have been imprisoned extrajudicially, and practitioners in detention are subject to forced labor, psychiatric abuse, torture, and other coercive methods of thought reform at the hands of Chinese authorities. As of 2009, human rights groups estimated that at least 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners had died as a result of abuse in custody.[4] Some observers put the number much higher, and report that tens of thousands may have been killed to supply China's organ transplant industry.[5][6] In the years since the persecution began, Falun Gong practitioners have become active in advocating for greater human rights in China.
However, these claims have no evidence at all and I think we should delete it. You can read the US congress report:
https://file.wikileaks.org/file/crs/RL33437.pdf
Raintwoto 20:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto ( talk • contribs)
I think we should add this interesting evidence from the interview of the Founder Li Hongzhi in Time.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html
TIME: Why does chaos reign now?
TIME: Why does chaos reign now? Li: Of course there is not just one reason. The biggest cause of society's change today is that people no longer believe in orthodox religion. They go to church, but they no longer believe in God. They feel free to do anything. The second reason is that since the beginning of this century, aliens have begun to invade the human mind and its ideology and culture.
TIME: Where do they come from? Li: The aliens come from other planets. The names that I use for these planets are different . Some are from dimensions that human beings have not yet discovered. The key is how they have corrupted mankind. Everyone knows that from the beginning until now, there has never been a development of culture like today. Although it has been several thousand years, it has never been like now.
The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science.
The ultimate purpose is to replace humans. If cloning human beings succeeds, the aliens can officially replace humans. Why does a corpse lie dead, even though it is the same as a living body? The difference is the soul, which is the life of the body. If people reproduce a human person, the gods in heaven will not give its body a human soul. The aliens will take that opportunity to replace the human soul and by doing so they will enter earth and become earthlings.
When such people grow up, they will help replace humans with aliens. They will produce more and more clones. There will no longer be humans reproduced by humans. They will act like humans, but they will introduce legislation to stop human reproduction.
TIME: Are you a human being? Li: You can think of me as a human being.
TIME: Are you from earth? Li: I don't wish to talk about myself at a higher level. People wouldn't understand it.
TIME: What are the aliens after? Li: The aliens use many methods to keep people from freeing themselves from manipulation. They make earthlings have wars and conflicts, and develop weapons using science, which makes mankind more dependent on advanced science and technology. In this way, the aliens will be able to introduce their stuff and make the preparations for replacing human beings. The military industry leads other industries such as computers and electronics.
TIME: But what is the alien purpose? Li: The human body is the most perfect in the universe. It is the most perfect form. The aliens want the human body.
TIME: What do aliens look like? Li: Some look similar to human beings. U.S. technology has already detected some aliens. The difference between aliens can be quite enormous.
TIME: Can you describe it? Li: You don't want to have that kind of thought in your mind.
TIME: Describe them anyway. Li: One type looks like a human, but has a nose that is made of bone. Others look like ghosts. At first they thought that I was trying to help them. Now they now that I am sweeping them away.,
TIME: How do you see the future? Li: Future human society is quite terrifying. If aliens are not to replace human beings, society will destroy itself on its own. Industry is creating invisible air pollution. The microparticles in the air harm human beings. The abnormality in the climate today is caused by that [pollution], and it cannot be remedied by humans alone. The drinking water is polluted. No matter how we try to purify it, it cannot return to its original purity. Modern science cannot determine the extent of the damage. The food we eat is the product of fertilized soil. The meat we eat is affected. I can foresee a future when human limbs become deformed, the body's joints won't move and internal organs will become dysfunctional. Modern science hasn't realized this yet.
At the beginning you asked why I did such things. I only tell practitioners, but not the public because they cannot comprehend it. I am trying to save those people who can return to a high level and to a high moral level. Modern science does not understand this, so governments can do nothing. The only person in the entire world who knows this is myself alone.
I am not against the public knowing, but I am teaching practitioners. Even though the public knows, it cannot do anything about it. People can't free themselves from science and from their concepts. I am not against science. I am only telling mankind the truth. I drive a car. I also live in the environment. Don't believe that I am against science. But I know that modern science is destroying mankind. Aliens have already constructed a layer of cells in human beings. The development of computers dictates this layer of body cells to control human culture and spirituality and in the end to replace human beings.
Raintwoto 20:09, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
nice quotes. it seems here there are two issues at play. 1) what does falun gong teach about science? 2) what's with the alien thing?
number one is presumably a broad topic, since someone above said there are 2,000+ pages of teachings, so we can stick to aliens for now.
right now my main question is: it's unclear how much more relevant this is in the falun gong corpus of beliefs than if Li had said something against eating meat, or pick any other topic out of a hat. there is a non sequitur aspect to it all without a clear statement by a chinese religious/flg expert explaining how it's central to the falun gong belief system or lifestyle (or whatever). where is that statement? Happy monsoon day 19:34, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
apologies - i kinda thought this was done. your last comment confused me, so i didn't realise it was a substantive point to advance your general argument.
the logic here is that because the communist party's use of scientistic propaganda against falun gong is cited in the article, the article must therefore include information about how falun gong believes in aliens manipulating science, because this is proof that the ccp's attacks on falun gong as being anti-science are not merely propaganda - that falun gong is indeed anti-science, as demonstrated by its crazy alien beliefs. right?
firstly, this sounds like a textbook original synthesis. secondly, i'm not even sure it makes sense. thirdly, content decisions should be made on the basis of encyclopedic judgement, due weight, and what the preponderance of reliable sources say about an issue. if there was a source which said 1) flg views on aliens are a central component of its teachings and 2) this is important because it shows the ccp's attacks against them was not just cynical propaganda but instead should be evaluated more seriously, etc. etc. ..... well then I could see how we have a case.
right now I find the logic somewhat tortured, and my main objection remains: there's nothing indicating this is a core teaching, and multiple indications that it's a side teaching. as I say, i'd have no objection helping craft something on it in the page that's actually about flg beliefs. this is just my view on the matter. Happy monsoon day 18:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
No one has claimed that Falun Gong's views on science are not a fundamental part of the teachings. I said that belief in aliens is not a fundamental part of the teachings. Falun Gong does have a fair bit to say in relation to science that is completely unrelated to its supposed extraterrestrial provenance. Ownby's book includes a whole 7-page section describing Falun Gong's views on and relationship to science, and it contains not one mention of aliens. Instead, Li's main critique of science is that it is but one knowledge system, that is is 'epistemologically incapable of validating their own claims to authority', and is limited in its ability to explain life and the universe. Other critiques focus on the environmental degradation that modern science has wrought, or the fact that it's incapable of proving moral truths. But Li never rejects science; he sort of co-opts it while simultaneously suggesting that it is very limited. He's Ownby:
This article actually seems to capture this point pretty well.
For future reference, if people don't reply to you, it's not necessarily evidence that you have won an argument. It might just be that you have failed to convince people, and they have resolved to move on. TheBlueCanoe 13:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
References
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
From the readings and what I have been able to find online(news and articles) Fulon Gong doesn't seem to have any core tenets needed from a religion, it is mostly a combination of exercises, philosophies on life/living and motions and is in that aspect more akin to Yoga and Martial arts than a religion, it is at best a sect of Taoism or Buddhism, not a separate religion on its own. Practitioners of Fulon Gong are not required to revoke their previous faiths, and it doesn't have any religious laws or restrictions, nor is it controlled by any central authority in any form at any level, other than planning practice meetings and rallies.
I would club it in the same Pseudo-Religion/"self help group organised as religion" family as Scientology. Exercise regiments and pop-psychological self diagnosis doesn't make you a religion.
It has more in common with a Martial Art like Tai Chi or Yoga(not considered a Martial Art). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.75.41.49 ( talk) 13:20, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
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TheBlueCanoe Last time I was asked for secondary sources instead of primary. I provided them. Is another problem being manufactured? Rajmaan ( talk) 04:38, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
@ Whaterss: can you elaborate which parts of this article read like an advert and why? – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 11:03, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
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There is a more-or-less permanent exhibition at the Sibelius Monument (Helsinki): [7]. Not sure of this is notable. It really does seem quite incongruous when one visits. Martinevans123 ( talk) 13:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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There is a more-or-less permanent exhibition at the Sibelius Monument (Helsinki): [8]. Not sure of this is notable. It really does seem quite incongruous when one visits. Martinevans123 ( talk) 13:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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Unicornblood2018 recently inserted content that dramatically shifted the POV of the article by emphasizing some WP:FRINGE beliefs that Falun Gong supposedly holds, such as Li's divine status and the existence of aliens. I removed the edits because they were mostly identical to this source and re-merged some details from the source to the appropriate section in the lede.
My question is: should there be mention of WP:FRINGE beliefs that Falun Gong supposedly holds? Given that this article has weathered a lot of controversy, the current version of the article is a product of compromise and consensus and dramatically shifting its POV would demand a very legitimate reason. Inserting information about Falun Gong's WP:FRINGE beliefs would create a more negative tone, a tone that isn't present in the current article. How we would insert such information without violating WP:NPOV when the topic is so controversial and most information comes either from the Chinese government or from Falun Gong-linked sources is another major question.
Some reliable sources discuss Falun Gong's WP:FRINGE beliefs, including a TIME article that describes its belief that aliens are introducing modern technology in order to start cloning humans, and that a cloned human wouldn't have a soul, with the end game being a total replacement of humanity with human bodies possessed by aliens. [1] To what extent these beliefs are notable is up for debate. Leugen9001 ( talk) 16:16, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
References
There's nothing good to say about these edits- the "something of a cause célèbre among human-rights groups and the anti-China crowd" comment is editorializing and synthesis, at best. The lack of judgment demonstrated in promoting the "evil cult" characterization to the lead is incredible- there's no "good faith" interpretation of that act - it's just vandalism.
Our job is to summarize relevant material, considering the credibility of sources, for readers to consider. Conclusions are the reader's purview. Mavigogun ( talk) 03:03, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Mavigogun ( talk) 05:03, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
References