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Bidi(local cigaratte) making can be included as it is was one of the largest employers in the state. the largest bidi company in private sector is still owned by a thiyya family. Keralone ( talk) 20:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
This article is getting better now, I didint read the entire thing but the 1st paragraph itself had many Propaganda items in the past, now it seems 'almost' ok.
& I have a suggestion that this 'kerala cast' related articles should be handled by malayalees itself as people from outside doesint know how things works here 1st hand. your ideas all arise from books & vague ideas happened to European writers or propaganda articles from kerala authors. May be thats how wikipedia works , but if malayalees handle this we will have the capacity to know which reference is true or false 1st hand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.216.74 ( talk) 07:33, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone obtain for me pages 358-360 of Farmers of India please. - Sitush ( talk) 08:14, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Keralone, you have just added a cite for a Kerala History Soc. thing called The Abstention Movement, in relation to conversions to Sikhism. It looks interesting but I can only see in snippet view - can you see the entire thing? Might be of use for other articles I am involved with. - Sitush ( talk) 14:13, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
No, but the Official government version of the movement is here http://www.old.kerala.gov.in/ele_rep/ele_51.htm . unofficial version to know more about politics during that time. http://dspace.vidyanidhi.org.in:8080/dspace/bitstream/2009/5135/9/KER-1989-090-7.pdf Keralone ( talk) 14:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately the full articles are available only through some libraries. I could get them if its on Jstor, but its not. Keralone ( talk) 22:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Both the Devi and Chopra citations used to support the Villavar-Ezhava connection are only available to me in snippet view. I am not happy with either of them because there is some (probably) significant context being lost. I would like to see the full text, if anyone can get it. If not then I would be inclined to remove the cites. Devi, in particular, makes an extremely sweeping statement and, to be honest, given the range of books that she has worked on I am not even sure that she is an authority on this matter. When an academic author has a unreferenced sentence that includes the words "some people say" then we should run for the hills. - Sitush ( talk) 21:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Notice to Keralaone. Please do not attempt to distort historical information.There is no evidence of Ezhava members skilled in the practice of ayurvedic medicine before the end of medieval period Kerala. Members of Ezhava community could make access to various professional careers by 18th century or later.Most of the Ezhava were illiterate till then. If you disagree, please prove it with reliable sources.
Primary education with letters were acquired by Nairs and other similar caste members , for the purpose of land title preparation , tax collection and local supervision there by to take up the role as land chief . This was imparted at village schools, where most of the avarna (ezhava)and out cates could not attend till 17th century. After 17th century primary education with malayalam and sanskrit was filtered to many avarna castes including Ezhavas. However the eligibility for higher education was vested with Brahmins and other higher castes . The British rule had changed the eduacation system and enabled many aspirants to achieve higher education ,which included Ezhavas as well. Truether ( talk) 14:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
I dont want to waste time arguing here..it is clear that you dont have any access to academic journals.. just google will not get you anywhere. the modern medicine is itself only few hundred years old. It is well known fact that there are two types of ayurveda, one practised by ezhavas and other by namboothiris. Ezhavas vaidyars treated 90% of the kerala population then. Brahmins would become outcaste if they treated others. Ezhava ayurveda is similar to that found in srilanka. Unlike other castes, ezhava population occupied a wide range of profession, and all these groups/subcastes were joined together by saint sreenarayana guru. anyways, at present ezhavas are leading the Hindus in kerala in all fields...so you can write what ever you want for the past as rulers then didnt want to acknowledge others achievement, which lead to their own destruction..
Ezhavas current and future history is unshakable.
see the link http://www.jstor.org/pss/312903 and you will see who did modern work on ayurveda from kerala. Keralone ( talk) 21:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Truether ( talk) 15:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Response to comments of Keralaone There is no pure reliable academic articles mention about ezhava as ancient ayurvedic physicians. It is sure that you may get few fancy full modern era writings (by ezhava or associted people) with self proclaimation that ezhava members had practiced ayurveda before the period of foreign alienation.Earlier, the occupational castes only had the right to practice various trades and professions in a society , unfortunately it was not the story with ezhava,these people could involve only in manual labor, coconut related works and toddy tapping.please do not get allured to that foolish reports , as sources for making wikipedia article. For readers of any article ,the rational and honest mention of the past and present is essential.
As we all know , in every family some may have a knowledge to practice the grandmas remedies for any ailment of their kin and kiths.Probably this may be the case of your belief that eahava had practiced herbal medicine.
whatever be the methods adopted for distorting the historical information,the truth will remain crystal clear to all. Just as evidences may pop up from any corner ,how hard the criminals endeavored to hide their act.Kindly use critical faculty before drawing conclusion on unreliable reports
Truether ( talk) 12:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Mathew, Truther is from south kerala, he won't change...most probably the changanassery type! Keralone ( talk) 01:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
truther you are correct, there were no physicians earlier, I work in healthcare field, you will be surprised to know that surgery was initially performed by barbers!. Basically Ezhavas knew better(hands on) about the plants and trees that existed in Kerala and its medicinal usage. At least that's what Portuguese found out and documented it sometime in 1700 and took it to Europe. read my link or similar ones.
Also all groups(kerala,Andra,karnataka or north india) engaged in preparation of "SOMA" had ayurvedic/medicinal knowledge. You must remember the social status of ezhavas across kerala were not same. Keralone ( talk) 01:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Keralaone, Intention of this discussion is not to insult someone. The practice of traditional medicine(Ayurveda) in ancient period of history invariably needed knowledge of sanskrit, fortunately or unfortunately this privilege was vested only with Brahmins or associated people.But the practice of herbal medicine or folk medicine was done by various cultural groups and they had been passing their lore to subsequent generation by oral means rather than writing .It has been reported by many writers that, in kerala , the diverse tribal people ( Mannan,Velan, Kaniyan), were worked as folk healers. The Ezhava had no access to sanskrit learning before the end of medieval period. By the turn of medieval period, many treatise and epics in sanskrit were translated to Malayalam , which helped common mass to attain the ancient knowledge passed from vedic period. Even in medieval period ,only few castes( Mannan,Velan, Kaniyan) were assigned with different specialties of treatment [ [1]]. Herbal medicine,sorcery and anti sorcery were also practiced by these groups.So Ezhava were no where in scene of Ayurveda practice, till the end of medieval period of Kerala. Truether ( talk) 12:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Common, dont be so narrow minded. the history of kerala is over 2000 years old. Namboothiris arrived in 8th century and they peaked their power with the help of nair minority between 13-17th century.(these are well documented in kerala history govt website, dont have a link now will provide when i find it) their decline started with arrival of europeans in 1700's. these are basically regimes that come and go in history. Just because a Sunni minority Saddam ruled Iraq for 25 years and suppressed shites doesnot mean, that shites were eliminated. Bringing up the Namboothiri link is typical of that period. not any more. It is must then Valmiki was also a brahmin!
"from your own link, it is clear that ezhava family traditions which is different from ashta vidyan (Pg 88) and evidence that it was documented by the marcopolo as early as 1300"
Keralone ( talk) 13:27, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
This link was given deliberately to convince you of the unreliability of the reports. please see the reference(Reference no25) they used for evidence of herbal medicine practice by ezhava- it is nothing but the unpolished wiki article Ezhava ( which we are struggling to make it more refined and useful) .If you go through the word ezhava (which is mentioned thrice in the article). Again it is well understandable from their writing that ezhava community made their foray in to practice of traditional medicine after only late 1800.
Truether ( talk) 16:58, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
what Iam trying to convey is that the presence of ezhava practitioners of ayurveda were noted only after late medieval period of Kerala. No reports is there , of ezhava attaining even the primary education or formal education before medieval period. For Keralaones kind in formation , you are mistsaken if you believe government websites are fool proof informative sources for historical reports.
Truether ( talk) 17:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Exactly, you sound like a pundit in history, may be you should help the helpless govt out!! .History was no doubt manipulated in all ages by the powerful. Probably I can come up with a theory that will be suitable for you to accept. I have heard that some Namboothiri vaidans were ex communicated for treating outcastes. these vaidans assimilated with ezhavas and spread ayurveda among them. This is only way I can convince you. (same as the ST thomas story).
Keralaone, wikipedia articles are not only for the ardent admirers or followers but also for the people of neutral in nature . Iam sorry that at times the discussion goes off the track, such exercises are done only for the sake of reasoning the points raised .Regarding government websites, we cannot ignore the news of corruption, nepotism and misuse of power by administrative figures in almost all democratically elected institutions. The non merit methods of selection of candidates to the sectors of public service and higher education could invariably results in slumbering and irresponsible attitude in the functioning of any government. So we cannot expect all the responses from public servants as error free and quality assured. That is all.
Truether ( talk) 12:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Even Narayana guru had acquired his philosophical knowledge from some other avarna caste teachers( Ayyavu swamikal)
The kolezhuthu script "lipi" was in fact derived from vattezhuthu in the era of 16th and 17th centuries at cochin and malabar region( palm leaf scripts on astrology and ayurveda are available)
Truether ( talk) 12:20, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Truether. read the citation in the article . It is clear and detailed on the Ezhava and Itti achuten ayurvedic links. if you have any reliable citation that says otherwise then put it up.
Keralone (
talk)
21:05, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
According to Sree Muthappan Thottam (song of Muthappan Theyyam, a Thiyya deity), the Thiyyas of North Malabar came from Karumana Nadu, the Thulu region of present Karnataka [Ref: Kaliyaattam, Mr.CMS. Chandera, NBS]. The Baigya (Vaidya) Thiyyas were supposed to be come from Thulu Nadu and the Kodava Thiyyas were supposed to be come from Kodagu Nadu, the nearby area. This distinction had been there until now. But apart from this, in the later times, there was also another assortment of splitting up of the Thiyya groups according to the occupation. The groups that performed Theyyam were known as Vannans or Mannans. Those connected with hair cutting were known as Kaavu Thiyyas, those connected with teaching were known as Ezhuthachchans and those connected with astrology were known as Kaniyas. At present, these groups are treated as entirely different castes. Now, the Thiyyas who are experts in Kalaripayattu are known as Gurukkals, those connected with patient treatments are known as Vaidyas and those connected with coconut climbing are known as Thandans. All the above groups are the components of a vast populace came from the Southern part of Karnataka. According to Mr. T. Damu, a well known journalist, [Lanka Parvam] the ancestors of the present Thiyya community who lived in the Western coast of India including Karnataka, Maharashtra and Gujarat were came from Thiyyan high ranges of Kyrgyz region in Central Asia. A large bulk of people were fled to East due to a massive earthquake in the above region and settled in the Western coast of India around 7000 BC.
The Thiyyas were Buddhists like the Ezhavas of Southern Kerala. This is the only connection between the Thiyyas and Ezhavas. One group came to Kerala from Karumana Nadu (present Karnataka) and the other group from Ezhuvath Nadu (present Sri Lanka). The flow of people from different regions to Kerala might be due to the availability of land since it was a new land carved out from the sea due to a massive earth quake – so it was also called the land of Parasurama.
The Thiyyas settled in and around Vatakara are famous for their typical form of Martial art known as ‘Kalaripayattu’. Unniyarcha was a legendary warrior figure of the Thiyyas, lived in Puthur (New Land) near Vatakara in 12th Century AD. She was the sister of ‘Aromal Chekavar’ and ‘Unnikannan’ and mother of ‘Aromalunny’. The songs and chronicles have kept the legend alive to this day. She was born in ‘Puthooram Veedu’, a famous Thiyya family. Like her brothers Unniyarcha was also trained in the arts of war. She is praised in Puthooram pattu, first in the series of Vadakkan pattu. She is considered as a heroine and symbol of female ability. Her brother Aromal was a reputed man of great chivalry and bravery. (Ref. Pazhassi Raja– Vatakkan Pattukal - Payeri Krishnan). The famous Italian Traveller, Marco Polo, (13th Century AD) portrayed the Thiyyas of Malabar as business men and merchants. The settlements of the Buddhists were known as palli or paadi. By means of the contacts with the Arabs, big chunks of this Buddhist group were later converted to Islam, and their Pallis were converted as Muslim shrines with the same name Palli. The residual groups turned to Hindu mob and divided into different castes as stated earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.251.21 ( talk) 05:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Provide some reliable citations and then may be we can include them in the article.
Keralone (
talk)
11:15, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
I have just cut
In 1921 an extensive effort to reach a thousand Ezhava families living in the coastal areas of Alappuzha and hilly area of Pathanamthitta was initiated by an independent committee, in relation with the CSI church. With Isabel Baker's (CMS Missionary) generous contribution, a school, hospital and a coir factory were established under the title Karappuram Mission in the Shertellai area and as a result, thousands of Ezhava families converted in areas of Alappuzha and Pathanamthitta to Christianity. [1]
Sree Narayana Guru described the conversion since he said that they were made for materialistic or temporary benefits, convenience, or as an escape from discrimination and religious persecution. These principles formed the criteria for his support of conversions and re-conversions. [1]
from the article. I can only see a snippet view of Srivastava here but I searched on:
Of these searches, the only one that returned a result was "Christianity", and that had just two mentions, the latest being about the 19th century. Something seems a little wrong here. - Sitush ( talk) 02:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, it is there on the church website, it looks like information is correct. http://www.csimichigan.org/CKD_Chapter2.htm
http://indianchristianity.org/csi.html but I agree we need more reliable links. Keralone ( talk) 06:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Ezhavas were known as chera kings in the past because
>>there body was so much flexible to climb coconut trees like chera(a poisonless snake in malayalam).
>>when Marco polo visited kerala he noticed this ability of ezhavas and adressed them as "CHERA KINGS". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.30.56 ( talk) 09:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
why u need source..it's already there in the article.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.30.56 ( talk) 09:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Please don't remove that.That's the only one positive thing we have in this article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.30.56 ( talk) 09:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
ok if that's ur wish do it.no probs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.113.225 ( talk) 10:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
In earlier years Padmanabhaswamy Temple and its properties were controlled by eight powerful Ezhava feudal lords known as Ettuveetil chekons(Lords of the Eight Houses), under the guidance of the Council of Eight and a Half. Later, King Anizham Thirunal Valiya Marthanda Varma, the founder of Travancore, successfully suppressed the Ettuveetil chekons and his cousins following the discovery of conspiracies the Lords were involved in against the Royal House of Travancore.
SOURCE FOR THIS IS >> EZHAVACHARITHAM MAHAPURANAM written by VALMIKI
Sitush, these are vandals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keralone ( talk • contribs) 22:29, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Is there a book called EZHAVACHARITHAM MAHAPURANAM,written by VALMIKI.Is valmiki the one who wrote RAMAYANA,if that was the case we cud have related the entire 'Raghuvansham' with the Ezhavas.PLS Dont write blunder here.
Actually the Ettuveedans(pillai) controlled the army of erstwhile Travancore.
A K GOPALAN the first opposition leader in the Parliament is from Nambiar community and his wife Suseela Gopalan from Ezhava communit.consider including his photo in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.131.194 ( talk) 12:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
E.M.S Namboothiripad the first chief minister of kerala is from Brahmin community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.190.215 ( talk) 12:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Please check the reference cited (24),since there is no clarity.
The term Chekavar is only a misspelt word (spoonerism) "Chevakar' or "'sevakar( meaning servants or slaves ) .The real name of Aromal chekavar is Aromal Chevakar.[ [2]] Though genarally ezhava were considered as servants , often they had to fight against the their master's enemy .Similarly a tribal group ( Kurichiar) in north Kerala (Vayanadu) also had the privilege to be assigned for fencing purpose - especially by Pazhassi Raja. So it does not mean that the members of those caste were Kshatriya or warriors.
Truether ( talk) 16:38, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Now the this books is written forign national and have more or less symmetric view on any caste . So the book should be considered as a major source for kerala history~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.241.58.152 ( talk) 12:27, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Apparently, this article is looking scruffy now and even the citations are distorted to fulfill someone's vested interest. For e.g. look at the citation which is about the genetic study of Nairs are Ezhavas. Here are the excerpts. "Genetic distance estimates using the gene frequency data indicate that the closest groups are Nayar, Ezhava and the Brahmin and Nayar. The tribal populations are approximately twice as far as from the Nairs as they are from Ezhava." - What does this mean..It just says the gene frequency is closer between Nairs and Ezhavas(and is same between Nairs and Brahmins as well) compared to tribal, that doesn't mean that they are same, it is just a comparison between these different sections (nair,brahmin and ezhava) w.r.t tribal. It also says the frequency of Nairs is twice as that of Ezhavas from the tribal which is a clear indication that both Nairs and Ezhavas have different frequency. Take a look at the second reference. "Ezhava to have a significantly lower frequency of group A and group B than do the Nayar" - This is pretty straight forward; it simply says they are different.
Some editors seem to be mocking and challenging at the perceptive capacity of the readers. A handful of new found 'cloud editors' are apparently 'bulldozing’ the efforts made by certain sincere anthropologists and their research for ages. ( User Lambodharan)
where does it say they are same? even first cousins gene frequencies may not be same. it just says that "gene frequencies are closer between nairs and ezhavas".
Definition of GENE FREQUENCY
"we are all, regardless of race,caste,religion,country genetically 99.9% the same". Keralone ( talk) 12:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Well..if that is the logic why only Nairs, rather we could make a statement that Ezhavas and Anglo-saxons have same genes..it is as absurd as saying that all ezhavas and nairs have 2 hands and 2 legs and hence they are of same genetic stuff..the citation doesn't make any sense. There is no findings or studies whatsoever for a common origin of these two communities. Some editors are making this place dirty by adding their own theories which is totally unacceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lambodharan ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Looks like there are studies out there. the summary is "The absence of any cluster along with low average GST is suggestive of substantial genetic similarity among the studied populations, in spite of clear geographical, linguistic, and cultural barriers. This similarity indicates either a greater gene flow between these groups or, alternatively, may reflect a recent evolution for them, considering that the Indian caste system evolved only about 3000 years ago."
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/human_biology/v075/75.2ghosh.pdf http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200304/ai_n9235661/ Keralone ( talk) 11:00, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
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Please change the following, in the section, "Position in society" //Although Ezhavas performed the work associated with the Hindu ritual rank (varna) of sudra, they were considered as untouchables or avarnas by the Nambudiri Brahmins who formed the clergy and ritual ruling elite in the region.[1] This was despite their ancestors Villavars belonging to the Shudras Varna.// Please replace it with the next sentence. //Ezhavas were the avarnas or in other words didn't belong to the chaturvarna system either by their own choice or by use of force.// Reliable source is the book of Dr. S N Sadasivan " A Social History of India. In this book as well as countless other records and official documents Ezhavas are known as not belonging to the chaturvarna system of the Hindu society. Ss19751975 ( talk) 19:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The similarity between of Kalarippayattu (angam)of Ezhava/thiyya coomunity and the martial arts of Sinhalese whose name is also angam is interesting. The 'angam' of Sri lanka is dated back to thousands of years where 'kalarippayattu' in kerala has a recent origin.This is a new evidence recognized recently. 'Vadakkan paattukal" says the ancestors of thiyya warriors came from an Island! The food habits (eg "Puttu" in malayalam, 'pittu' in Sinhalese) old ornamental habits, and surprising similarity between Malayalam and Sinhalese script indicates an past influx to Kerala.
Modern genetic studies reinforce Srilankan origin :- Modern studies using molecular biology techniques are also supporting Sri Lankan origin of Ezhavas. A genetic study conducted in Rajiv Gandhi Center for Biotechnology, Kerala (A crypto-Dravidian origin for the nontribal communities of South India based on human leukocyte antigen class I diversity R. Thomas et al Tissue Antigens ISSN 0001-2815 2006) states that "A strong East Eurasian (populations east of India and central Asia) element is noticed in the allelic distribution of the Ezhavas and its proximity to the Mongol populations in the bi-dimensional plot. This signifies a strong influence of the Mongoloid communities.This is also supported by the probable existence of a Buddhist past among the Ezhava who migrated from Sri Lanka in the ninth century". Since Sinhalese share similar East Eurasian ancestry, Sri Lankan origin hypothesis becomes more credible (HLA analysis of Sri Lankan Sinhalese predicts North Indian origin. G. N. Malavige et al, International Journal of Immunogenetics Volume 34, Issue 5, pages 313–315, October 2007. Shaanvet ( talk) 04:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
The Namboothiri article in Malayalam wiki says that there many ezhava families were socially converted into namboothiris
14.96.130.30 (
talk)
14:55, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
"The Nampootiri Brahmins of Kerala have except for their vedic belief, nothing in common with the Brahmins of other regions and it has taken for them over 400 years consistent struggle employing every tactics to climb to the top of the social ladder. Conversion to Brahminism continued through seven centuries from the eighth and Kodungalloor Kunjikuttan Tampuran, an ardent supporter of theirs from the old ruling classes versifies (stanzas 113 and 114 of his poetical work Keralam) that the erudite and venerable Buddhist monks were made Brahmins and depending upon the occupations they followed, the Buddhist laity were declared to be of different lower castes. Although for the Tampuran, this method or conversion and creation of castes has been novel, it has been employed by the Brahmins all over India for vanquishing Buddhism. Even after the Buddhist faithful were, by a large, categorised as Ezhavas, as a conciliatory gesture or as a matter of necessity, selective migration from them to Brahminism was encouraged and according to Kampil Ananthan (A Critique of Kerala History or the Antiquity of the Tiyyas in Malayalam 1935) Nampootiri families of Andalur, Nilamangalam and Olacheri were converted en masse from the Ezhavas who were leaders of kazhakanms or regional assemblies which had the authority to hear and give verdict on cases." (p309)
-- Nair ( talk) 08:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone justify the images used in the infobox? Either before or since the additions of today? I know that this discussion has taken place with regard to some other Indian caste articles and suspect that there is little difference between them and this one. To me, they represent cherry-picking and undue weight, as well as having the potential to "flood" the top of the page with visual clutter. - Sitush ( talk) 21:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
One thing should be analysed with the reasons that, in the articles related with other casts, they deliberately trying to include maximum number of heroes and heroines from their category, even if those persons are not that much noticed in the society; with an aim to expose the artistic and cultural representation from their communities. But in this article about " Ezhavar ", what we can see is people deliberately avoid the heroes and heroines like ...Kavya Madhavan, Samvritha Sunil, Vineeth Sreenivasan..etc. What is the reason behind ???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sajisaji ( talk • contribs) 05:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Kavya madhavan does not belong to Ezhava community,she belongs to Saliya(chaliyan)community.This caste is a prominent group in north malabar,most of them converted to ezhavas in south travancore-they formed the weaver section of the community in ancient period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.53.160 ( talk) 18:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
This article has been mentioned at Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics MW ℳ 03:54, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
what is the relevance of the first heading as 'etymology' and only one sentence as 'it is uncertain' in it. Its better to avoid that seection Rchampadan ( talk) 14:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
The article currently says
According to legend and some Malayalam folk songs, the Ezhavas were the progeny of four slaves that the king of Ceylon sent to Kerala at the request of the Chera king Bhaskara Ravi Varma, in the 1st Century AD. These men were sent, ostensibly, to set up coconut farming in Kerala. Another version of the story says that the Sri Lankan King sent eight martial families to Kerala at the request of a Chera king to quell a civil war that had erupted in Kerala against him.
It cites "EMS Namppothirppadu, Keralam Malayalikalude Mathrubhumi Desbhimany publications, VOl1, 1947 page 27" as the source for this. I would be grateful if someone could provide an English translation of that page and an explanation as to why this is a reliable source. It has been tagged with this request for a couple of months now, although at least one contributor keeps changing "slaves" to "bachelors" without giving any reason for doing so. - Sitush ( talk) 16:23, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
The Ezhava community comprises many sub-groups. Has anyone got an official recent source that confirms that all Ezhavas are classified as being Backward Class and that this is so throughout India? My experience is that in situations such as this it is often the case that some subgroups are classified as OBC, for example, while others are BC, and also that their classification varies from one region to antoher. - Sitush ( talk) 16:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Well.. Thiyya is different from Ezhava. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.7.136 ( talk) 08:23, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
I tagged some citations that needed additional info a few weeks ago. They are:
Unless someone can actually provide the pages in those sources that specifically refer to Ezhava then I am inclined to delete the section which discusses early references found in inscriptions. I am sure that there are other people than me who are aware that these things are often dubious and that those who study inscriptions often speculate rather than say flat out that a given word of 2000 years ago (or whatever) is definitely the same as a modern word. Unfortunately, it is "flat out" that we need, otherwise we are heading into the realms of original research. - Sitush ( talk) 07:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Nothing here is written in stone, everything can change. Nonetheless, recently there has been yet another attempt to POV fork and otherwise exemplify an alleged distinction between the Ezhava and the Thiyyar titles. The result of that was not merely a lack of consensus but also a salting of one of the primary targets for these campaigns, as per this log entry. As a consequence of these recent events, I have reverted this contribution.
As per the deletion discussion, if anyone wishes to continue to develop the notion that there is a distinction between the Ezhava and Thiyyar communities then they are welcome to do so. However, the starting point would be to add content to this article that complies with our policies, the most fundamental of which can be viewed here. Should things develop in a manner that is significant then, yes, it may be possible to open a discussion about forking the article. Until that time, please do not disrupt our articles with poor edits. Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 00:45, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Thiyyas - Had Matrinllenal inheritance, mainly warriors or traders, Serpent worship, better social status, meditarenian physical traits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.106 ( talk) 10:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Thiyya - Ezhava issue is much more complicated (much of the dispute between users is arising because of inability to understand each other’s position). Although there are differences between Thiyya – Ezhava, this difference has nothing to do with the Thiyya/Ezhava caste specifically. It has more to do with interaction of geography and caste- North Malabar vs rest of Kerala. Native North Malabar families irrespective of their ethno-religious background within this area have maintained distinct practices and superior rital-status compared to their southern counterparts, akin to a sacerdotal supremacy. For instance matrilinial Thiyyas, Virilocal-matrilinial Nayars, Matrilinial-Mappilas, Matrilinial Namboothiris of Payyannur etc of North Malabar, have maintained distinct status and is not unique to Thiyya-Ezhava issue. Multiple historians and anthropologist such Gough, Shneider, Logan, Fawcett, TKG Panicker , Praveen Kodoth etc have all commented on this geographic issue for one or the other castes including Thiyyas and Mappilas. Therefore to portray Thiyyas as distinct from Ezhavas would not be correct per se. Neither would it be correct to see them as one. The “factual-accuracy” lies midway between the two disputing groups of users and hence to come to NPOV – either parties must acknowledge that the other has a point.Hope this helps. VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 09:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
I have removed two subsections, viz:
Theories of origin
According to historian C. V. Kunjuraman, the two gods of the Buddhist Ezhavas, namely Cittan and Arattan, are in fact Buddhist Sidhan and Arhatan from Buddhism. full citation needed T. K. Veluppillai, the author of The Travancore State Manual, believes that during Buddhist ascendancy in Kerala, before the arrival of the Tulu Brahmins, "the Ezhavas enjoyed great prosperity and power" (II, 845). However, he also says that it is very unlikely that the Ezhavas came from Sri Lanka and spread all over Kerala; instead they were the mainstream of Munda-Dravidian immigrants who left Tamil Nadu in the fifth, sixth, and seventh centuries to avoid persecution at the hands of their political enemies. full citation needed
and
Inscriptions
The first reference to the word Ezhava found in Arittapatti inscriptions of 3rd century BC near Madurai, talks about 'Eelava perumal, chief of Nelveli, has caused the carving of this auspicious cave'. Famous Kilavalavu Jain cave inscriptions of 3rd century BC talks about an ezhavan who built Buddhist monastery there. Another inscriptions of BC 2nd century found near Alakarmalai talks about an ezhava textile trader 'ezhathu theevan athan'. [2] full citation needed [3] full citation needed [4] full citation needed
They have both been tagged as requiring more detailed citations for some time now, and I have some doubts regarding the reliability of some of the sources. - Sitush ( talk) 18:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Unlike other places in India the Caste system in Kerala was very complex and rigid. It is mainly divided in to two groups, the caste hindus or Savarna( Nambudiri and Nair) and Avarna. The higher caste hindus ( Nambudiri and Nair) and Syrian Christians treated Ezhavas as untouchables. [5]. A Nair had the right to behead polluting lower castes including Ezhavas immediately. [6].
It will be great if you can read the first reference and page 12 to 14 of the second reference. And I think the matter is very relevant in the context. Dakshinsamudram ( talk) 02:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
THIYYAR / THIYYA Thiyyar / Thiyya not a subcaste under Ezhava. it has its own identity and it is a caste itself not a subcaste. The culture, tradition even physical appearance, skin colour completely different from Ezhavas. They are Other Backward Communities thats all one thing common among them. Please delete Theyyam, Izhathu mannanar, and also delete the part which referring people from Malabar, they are thiyyas not Ezhavas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.18.3 ( talk) 02:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
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Tiyyas, Thiyyas and Theeyas in Malabar have to be removed from the article. the said community is a unique and different community and have very little connection with ezhavas. article have to remove all the references regarding the thiyya community. 122.174.195.192 ( talk) 18:46, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Ezhava#Dispute_between_Thiyya_and_Ezhava refers to a threat by a Thiyya organisation to mount a legal challenge against the state government. The source is very poorly worded but, if I'e read it correctly, it was indeed just a threat. Since that report is from January 2012, I'd expect that there would be an update by now, even allowing for the legendary slowness of the judicial process in India. However, the section was only added a few days ago and if that source is the best that we can do then I think we might be in WP:CRYSTAL territory because there is a distinct possibility that posturing was going on. - Sitush ( talk) 22:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi Qwyrxian I will be uploading some documents to back up my claims. Also will give reference links, give me couple of days please. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 01:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Why someone is removing my comments without discussing? This is a talk page. Right? Pnranjith ( talk) 06:08, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi I am pasting a relevant piece of information from Edagr Thurston Book Caste and Tribes of Southern India TIYAN-39
collapse long, useless quote from the unreliable
Edgar Thurston
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Regulations keep the Izhuvans of Cochin and Travancore in a position of marked social inferiority, and in Malabar they are altogether unlettered and uncultured. On the other hand, the Tiyans of Malabar provide Magistrates, Sub- Judges, and other officials to serve His Majesty's Government. It may be noted that, in 1907, a Tiya lady matriculate was entertained as a clerk in the Tellicherry post-office. A divagation must be made, to bring the reader to a comprehension of the custom surrounding mattu, a word signifying change, i.e., change of cloth, which is of sufficient importance to demand explanation. When a man or woman is outcasted, the washerwoman (or man) and the barber of the community (and no other is available) are prohibited from performing their important parts in the ceremonies connected with birth, death, and menstruation. A person who is in a condition of impurity is under the same conditions; he or she is temporarily outcasted. This applies to Nambutiris and Nayars, as well as to the Tiyans. Now the washerwoman is invariably of the Tiyan caste. There are Mannans, whose hereditary occupation is washing clothes for Nambutiris and Nayars, but, for the most part, the washerwoman who washes for the Nayar lady is of the Tiyan caste. A woman is under pollution after giving birth to a child, after the death of a member of her tarvad, and during menstruation. And the pollution must be removed at the end of the prescribed period, or she remains an outcaste a very serious thing for her. The impurity is removed by receiving a clean cloth from the washerwoman, and giving in exchange her own cloth to be washed. This is mattu, and, be it noted, the cloth which gives mattu is one belonging to the washerwoman, not to the person to be purified. The washerwoman TIYAN-40 Gives her own cloth to effect the purification. Theoretically, the Tiyan has the power to give or withhold mattu, and thus keep any one out of caste in a state of impurity ; but it is a privilege which is seldom if ever exercised. Yet it is one which he admittedly holds, and is thus in a position to exercise considerable control over the Nambutiri and Nayar communities. It is odd that it is not a soiled cloth washed and returned to the person which gives purification, but one of the washerwoman's own cloths. So the mattu may have a deeper meaning than lies in mere change of cloth, dressing in a clean one, and giving the soiled one to a person of inferior caste to wash. This mattu is second in importance to no custom. It must be done on the last day of pollution after birth and death ceremonies, and menstruation, or the person concerned remains outcasted. It is note worthy that the Izhuvans know nothing of mattu. An Izhuvan will eat rice cooked by a Tiyan, but a Tiyan will not eat rice cooked by an Izhuvan a circumstance pointing to the inferiority of the Izhuvan. A Nayar, as well as a Tiyan, will partake of almost any form of food or drink, which is prepared even by a Mappilla (Malabar Muhammadan), who is deemed inferior to both. But the line is drawn at rice, which must be prepared by one of equal caste or class, or by a superior. An Izhuvan, partaking of rice at a Tiyan's house, must eat it in a verandah; he cannot do so in the house, as that would be efilement to the Tiyan. Not only must the Izhuvan eat the rice in the verandah, but he must wash the plates, and clean up the place where he has eaten. Again, an Izhuvan could have no objection to drinking from a Tiyan's well. Further, there is practically no mixture in the distribution of Tiyans and Izhuvans. Where there are Izhuvans there TIYAN-41 are no Tiyans, and vice versa. [In a photograph of a group of Izhuvan females of Palghat eating their meal, which was sent to me, they are all in a kneeling posture, with the buttocks supported on the heels. They are said to assume the same attitude when engaged in grinding and winnowing grain, and other occupations, with a resultant thickening of the skin over the knees.] Differences, which might well come under the heading marriage, may be considered here, for the purpose of comparison between the Tiyans and Izhuvans. During the preliminaries to the marriage ceremony among the Tiyans, the date of the marriage having been fixed in the presence of the representatives of the bride and bridegroom, the following formula is repeated by the Tandan or headman of the bride's party. Translated as accurately as possible, it runs thus. " The tara and changati of both sides having met and consulted ; the astrologer having fixed an auspicious day after examining the star and porutham ; permission having been obtained from the tara, the relations, the illam and kulam, the father, uncle, and the brothers, and from the eight and four (twelve illams) and the six and four (ten kiriyams) ; the conji and adayalam ceremonies and the four tazhus having been performed, let me perform the kanjikudi ceremony for the marriage of ... . the son of . . . . with .... daughter of .... in the presence of muperium." This formula, with slight variations here and there, is repeated at every Tiyan mar riage in South Malabar. It is a solemn declaration, giving validity to the union, although, in the way that custom and ritual survive long after their original significance has been forgotten, the meaning of many of the terms used is altogether unknown. What, for instance, |
Vineeth (vineethsat@gmail.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.13 ( talk) 06:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
This is the reason why I posted the blog link in my talk page. If an ISBN referenced book which is published decades back is not taken into consideration, what about the genetic studies conducted by Dr. Shyamalan, A very famous physician in the US? Pnranjith ( talk) 07:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Shyalaman has also been brought up in previous discussions about this subject. He commissioned a private study of his own genetic structure that somehow proved he came from Kyrgystan. Or something along those lines - I forget the detail. He was deemed to be a complete aberration on this issue and - yet again- none of this is relevant to the purpose of this section. You've been advised by several experienced contributors regarding what is required. Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 07:31, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
As we have a few eyes on this article at the moment, I would welcome comments on the following statements that have been tagged as dubiously sourced since June 2011:
In 1896, a petition with more than 13,000 signatories was submitted to the government asking for the recognition of the right of the Ezhavas to enter government service; the upper caste Hindus of the state prevailed upon the Maharajah not to concede the request. The outcome not looking to be promising, the Ezhava leadership threatened that they would convert from Hinduism en masse, rather than stay as helots of Hindu society. Diwan, Sir C. P. Ramaswamy Iyer, realizing the imminent danger, prompted the Maharajah to issue the Temple Entry Proclamation, which abolished the ban on lower-caste people from entering Hindu temples in the state of Travancore.
Whether reliable or not, the source is difficult to track down because of the incompleteness of the citation. I suspect that the statements might be broadly accurate but surely we can improve on the sourcing? And, if not, then it probably needs to be removed. - Sitush ( talk) 01:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
You are picking up little things like minor typos, by going into irrelevant details by that way you can deviate the attention. Not criticising you but i have noticed that you keep squabbling on things and in the background you are utilising that time to fix article. Same thing happend with “SubCastes” Not ready to accept that you were wrong
Regarding Damu. He is a new writer compare to Nossitor and Edgar & Thurston. You are actually manipulating my words and using against me.
The Hindu article says Disputing the general belief that Ezhavas of Travancore and Thiyyas of Malabar in Kerala are the one and the same community, the book claims that they have no hereditary or historical link as they migrated to the State centuries ago from two different geographical regions. Mr. Damu says that Ezhavas, who are predominant in the southern part of Kerala, migrated to the State from Sri Lanka being the descendants of Sinhalese. ``Therefore, there is no link whatsoever between them. They are two different communities
This is not a review as you mentioned before but it is an article published by The Hindu, most reliable and yes, i would like to know why you can not agree with his views. But you agree with what Nossitor wrote about Ezhava and Thiyya but i would say you are conveniently ignoring the fact that they are two different castes.
You didnt say anything about SSLC Certificates which show different caste names, Irajeevwiki ( talk) 02:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Thurston's primary means of classification of people into caste and tribal groups was using anthropometric techniques. These techniques are not generally accepted today and I suggest that Thurston be used very carefully. It would be better to do so indirectly, through more modern reliable sources that quote or use Thurston, rather than directly referencing his work. Treat him as a primary source. -- regentspark ( comment) 19:58, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
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Thiyya, Thiyyar, Tiya, Thiyya are a different caste in Malabar area of Kerala and the only link with Ezhava is they both belong to Other Backward Communities in Kerala. Please do not mention that Thiyya is a sub caste of Ezhava in the Article, None of your citation links say that Thiyya is a subcaste of Ezhava therefore you need to either remove all the references about Thiyya, Thiyyar, Tiya or Thiya from this article or describe Thiyya caste in detail in the article. Ezhathu Mannanars was not Ezhava Dynasti, Wikipedia has got a page for Ezhathu Mannanars and it has got valid reference which says Ezhathu Mannanars a Thiyya Dynasty. Please do not ignore this edit request. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 04:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Irajeevwiki ( talk) 09:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Until independent reliable academic sources recognise the complete distinction between Ezhava and Thiyya, we have a problem here. Please also note that in the event that such sources are found, we would show both sets of opinions. That is, that some academics consider them to be Ezhava and others consider them to be distinct. - Sitush ( talk) 17:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Edgar Thurstons book clearly mentions the difference between Ezhava and Thiyya .. ( vineeth ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.13 ( talk) 03:57, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
@Sitush .. Edgar Thurston was a well recognized gentleman who served as superintendent at Madras Government Muesuem . He has enough experience in India to write about caste and tribes . And do you think you have any credibility to disapprove of him . what is your qualification to question him . "He was assisted in the writing of Castes and Tribes by a colleague from the museum, K. Rangachari, who had also assisted him in a 1906 ethnographic study, Ethnographic Notes in Southern India. Rangachari had supplied most of the forty photographs used in this earlier study.[2] The September 1910 edition of Nature described the work as a monumental record of the varied phases of south Indian tribal life, the traditions, manners and customs of people. Though in some respects it may be corrected or supplemented by future research it will long retain its value as an example of out-door investigation, and will remain a veritable mine of information, which will be of value Thurston was awarded the Kaisar-i-Hind, first class, on 26 June 1902.[5]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.241.171 ( talk) 07:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
the writer never said that Thiyya is a sub caste of ezhava in the book. Thiyya is a separate caste from Malabar and ezhava is from travancore. On the same page. :Ref 1, Nossiter p 30, second para explains about the differences of both castes. Majority of the Ezhavas were agricultural labours whereas thiyyar were toddy tappers.
Irajeevwiki (
talk)
19:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Doubtless, it is the regional differences and the possible socio-economic gains to be made that are driving the present-day Thiyya desire to be seen as entirely distinct but until reliable sources say this, there is nothing we can do to change it here. What we need is some decent, neutral stuff discussing any present claims to the difference. ... and I do not mean agitative Thiyya-based sources as I am pretty sure this campaign both on- and off-Wikipedia is driven by some ulterior motive. Find someone like Christophe Jaffrelot who specialises in the politics of caste and is an active academic with no axe to grind. - Sitush ( talk) 20:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Sorry
Sitush Please do not remove any comments left by other wikipedians as we need all the comments posted here to resolve this issue. Dont take it personally. We are just having a discussion here on whether you need to take all Thiyya references off from your article or not.
Irajeevwiki (
talk)
01:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
You have taken whole sub caste section off from the article which is good. You are actually manipulating fact here by claiming some word references from books. Ezhavas always wanted to merge with thiyaas, that's just for political gain. Since Thiyya and ezhava got completely different culture and history, we can't merge them here on the wiki. Also Thiyya caste needs to be explained more in wiki, about culture, worship, wedding etc. better you please write only about Ezhavas. Your article nicely explains ezhava caste . But If somebody wants to know more about Thiyya, there nothing here in wiki. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 19:51, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi Zebedee|Boing! I think you have not noticed the valid reference link and a snapshot of the page i have included in my previous message here. Please see above, it explains castes are different. Sitush, Please do not personally attack somebody, which is against wikipedia rules. We are trying for a public consensus here by discussion. I am not using wikipedia as a soapbox. If you want more reference links i can produce in couple of days. I have read many books published in the past which explains the difeence between these two castes.
Irajeevwiki (
talk)
21:18, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Reliable source links have been provided in the reference section of this article. Hope you have read it. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 04:16, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Please tell me Sitush Why this book not reliable to you. It is published by Duke University USA. Why you believe this book is not reliable. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 21:47, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Far out !!!! When you read somewhere that they are different castes then it is ambiguous. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 03:15, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
I think I can explain to you. Because members from Thiyya and ezhava were doing same jobs in the past like toddy tapping, farming etc they got almost same social status in Kerala. Also they were Other Backward Communities in Kerala. Writer says That they are two different castes with same social status. Hope this helps. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 04:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
It seems that I was wrong to discount the background of Lukose, who does in fact fit the bill, but it is very poor wording and seems practically to be a throw-away remark in a book that consists primarily of individual case studies. I cannot understand why she choose to do this when, surely, she was aware of the issues. I might even email her, just to satisfy my own curiosity, because there are at least 32 references to Ezhava in that book but only a footnote for Tiyya. See pages 10, 16, 30, 32, 34, 41, 47, etc. Even the Tiyya footnote relates to a paragraph about the Ezhava, per pages 179-180. The source whom she is citing there appears to be Menon, Dilip M. Caste, Nationalism and Communism in South India: Malabar, 1900-1948. Cambridge University Press., which has been republished on several occasions (she says page 292 of the 1997 edition, which oddly enough is not one that I can find at WorldCat although there is a 1997 review). RegentsPark has borrowed a copy of that from a library but is currently travelling, per this message
Curiously, Menon's book concerns Malabar and apparently speaks only of Tiyyas, yet I have just begun to create Travancore Labour Association and there are numerous sources in that which say political activists from Malabar got involved with the TLA, which they say was an Ezhava organisation. And others who cite him, eg: this, call them Ezhava even when citing. They are not of use for this article due to synthesis but it exemplifies just how messy this situation is! I could speed things up by buying a copy - £25 or so - but I'm not inclined to spend money just to confirm/deny a single point. - Sitush ( talk) 15:40, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
OK. Spouse checked. No mention of Ezhava in index. None on page 107. Book ends on page 209 (though, I guess, Sitush already clarified that). -- regentspark ( comment) 17:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
RegentsPark, one should not name-drop, as Her Majesty the Queen said to me only the other day. Feel free to ask Prof Lukose regardless of my email: you'll more likely get a response. - Sitush ( talk) 18:17, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
In History section, there is a new section called "Legend". The citation given there is absolutely invalid. EMS Namboothiripadu is a politician. He has never done any study of ezhava. So, this has to be removed.
I think you will find that the tag that currently exists against the source in the article was added by me - I was reluctant to remove the information when there seems a reasonable likelihood that sources exist and one is in fact mentioned. Indeed, I have seen a decent source for it but I was unwell at the time and now I can't remember what it was! I need to get my brain into gear (Sadavsivan mentions it, I am sure, but he has proved to be a contentious source at Nair). - Sitush ( talk) 17:56, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the rituals, well, if you are blank about Ezhava rituals then how can you claim that there is a difference? It is the one thing that sources generally acknowledge to be at variance and, indeed, you have claimed that Theyyam is purely a Tiyya thing but cannot possibly know this if you are "blank" about Ezhava - all you know is that the sources you have read mention it in connection with Tiyya, which is perhaps not surprising since they are speaking of Travancore etc. Sometimes you have to read between the lines when analysing a source: what is it looking at and how might that affect the scope of its presentation. - Sitush ( talk) 20:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
This article written for misleading readers, please understand that thiyya is not a sub caste of any caste. Its independent cast and they have their own culture, tradition and history. Its just like Nair, Menon, Nambiar, Ezhava etc. If you look nair wikipedia article, they mention about menon caste that doesnt mean menon is sub caste of Nair, You can mention about thiyya in your article but dont mislead people by making thiyya as subcaste This article deceiving readers, written for political gain or something, please remove all above said references immediately.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.178.150.186 ( talk) 12:31, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
The evolution of the name "Ezhavar" was from the word from the place "EEzham". And they were called in the past as " Ezhavar". But it was by the British, " the Malayalam Illiterate People" who were incapable for normal pronunciation that word, started telling it as "Ezhava" instead of "Ezhavar". But it is a vulgar pronunciation of that word, and it is not the responsibility of Ezhavar to vulgarity of their pronunciation. We can see that, we are not calling the cast "Nayar" as " Naya OR Nayas", and we don't call the cast "Pattar" as "Patta OR Pattas ". Means the word "Ezhavar" also should be pronounced in the same manner as "EZHAVAR"instead of pronouncing "Ezhava". If the Government documents are the inspiring support to tell the word like that, what we should do is to change first the Government Usage - what was created by the Malayalam illiterate British, and blindly following monkeys .And now a days we can see that, So many families started using their name as word " Ezhavar" with their name.And so many started naming their new born babies also as the same using the word "Ezhavar". Like.... Sajeesh Ezhavar, Unnikrishnan Ezhavar, ramnarain Ezhavar..etc. In Malayalam, there you can find out a meaning for the word of " Ezhavar". But You can not explain the meaning of the word " Ezhava" / "Ezhavas" using the Malayalam Language. {{subst:Unsigned|
Whoever is deleting my comments is not good for him / her. I had posted comment on 26 March 2013 , 09:55, .. Its been deleted. Can you please stop doing that. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 10:41, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
There is a serious issues of balance with in this article there fore i have placed POV Check.
This article is violating wiki policy by creating Thiyya caste a fork of Ezhava, it is bad forking therefore i request the admins to remove forking of Thiyya to this article. Many contributors have been trying to convince the admin of the article to take necessary actions to fix the article's NPOV issues and produced many reputed publishings houses book references and Government Issued certificates but the writer is ignoring those valid and genuine supplied references and reluctant to make any changes to his stand. There are some admins ganged up with this article's admin and refusing to the other contributors request to change articles controversial subject.
Article Ezhava is exclusively for ezhava but intentionally merging Thiyyar caste with Ezhava while Thiyyar caste is completely distinct from ezhava. The writer ganged up with other admins and deceived a senior admin called Bwilkins in 2012 April ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thiyyar) and created Thiyyar Caste as a POV Fork of Ezhava which was a clear bad forking, there fore i humbly request to review the decision of forking of Thiyya Caste. I am requesting other senior admins to view the talk page of ezhava where many times Article writer threatens other contributors with block. A "Thiyyar" search in wikipedia should not redirect to Ezhava.
A POV fork is an attempt to evade the neutrality policy by creating a new article about a subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. POV forks are not permitted in Wikipedia.
Wikipedia policy is as per above mentioned, but a few admins just challenging wiki rules here and we are helpless and desperate here.
The latest reference link I have provided is valid and genuine reference from a book published by Duke University and Author is Professor Ritty A Lukose. The book says on page 235 Last Paragraph that Thiyya is a same caste position as Ezhava. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=R5gNOdw9E_0C&pg=PT269&lpg=PT269&dq=The+blindness+of+insight:+Essays+on+caste+in+modern+India+(Chennai:+Navayana,+2006)&source=bl&ots=B2pj6tuyzg&sig=8Nk9Rgn0gzUktwXJb8_ci4qyF50&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lf9DUc3CMeuaiQe87ICAAQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=tiyya&f=false
Below mentioned Section is wrong. Its been cited with very old and non reliable book. I have provided valid reference book above, please refer the book and correct the article. Also the article's Theyyam section is wrong. Theyyam doesn't relate to Ezhava so kindly remove or edit it. The Ezhavas are a community with origins in the region of India presently known as Kerala. They are also known as Ilhava, Irava, Izhava and Erava in the south of the region; as Chovas, Chokons and Chogons in Central Travancore; and as Tiyyas, Thiyyas and Theeyas in Malabar.[1][2] The Malabar Tiyya group have claimed a higher ranking in the Hindu caste system than do the others, although from the perspective of the colonial and subsequent administrations they were treated as being of similar rank.[1][3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irajeevwiki ( talk • contribs) 10:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
There are many reasons to put a POV Checkbtag, the article says something that other people would want to disagree with, As per wiki rule. An editor should not remove the tag merely because he or she feels the article does comply with NPOV: The tag should be removed only when there is a consensus that the disputes have indeed been resolved.. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 18:54, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
A research report published by Farooq College of Calicut University by prof. T. Muhammadali.
Page no. 4 Beginning of the page. Colonizers in Malabar recognised the different existence of Nayars and Tiyyas as Jatis. (Jati means Caste)
Page no. 4 End of first para.
"Tiyyas primarily concerned about acquiring education beyond everything else. The beginning of twentieth century witnessed mounting proclivity towards reform among Ezhavas though it was mainly concentrated in Travancore"
Also. Read CASTE, NATIONALISM AND COMMUNISM IN SOUTH INDIA: MALABAR 1900-1948. By Dilip M. Menon. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 199 which tells you the difference of Ezhava and Tiyya.
I have bought another book from Amazon hope i will receive in couple of days. I can upload pages to my server and provide link for you. Please do not remove tag from article. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 10:56, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I'll have to wait for you or RegentsPark to provide the info given on page 199 of Menon. RegentsPark was under the impression that Ezhavas were not referred to at all in that book.
What is the book that you have bought from Amazon? - Sitush ( talk) 18:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Completely agree with Pnranjith. Another book which says " Thiyyas consider themselves as a caste superior to Ezhavas" Link below http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Pd8aAAAAMAAJ&q=tiyya++and+ezhava&dq=tiyya++and+ezhava&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T4pOUbSlLsTRkwXskIFI&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBg Author Dr. CJ Roy, " The Thiyya Dilect" Madurai Kamaraj University. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 05:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Also see this if you cant trust Murkoth Ramunni http://books.google.com/books?id=HHev0U1GfpEC&pg=PA51&dq=Thiyya+matrilineal&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TlpPUd2aH8mWiQLgvIDgBA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Thiyya%20matrilineal&f=false Ranjith ( talk) 19:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Sigh. Ramunny is an odd source. It is practically a souvenir guide (80-odd pages) introducing the area where a new naval academy was to be situated. There are no sources apparent, the Northern Book Centre is not an academic publishing house, and Ramunny says in the preface that "A work of this size can have no pretensions of being exhaustive, and as regards accuracy I have done my best with the material available to me" - it is almost an apology. And who is/was Ramunny?
That aside, yes, it passes rapidly over the subject of matrilineal practises and includes Tiyya among them (no need for it to mention Ezhava because it concentrates on Northern Kerala). However, what Jeffrey says is far more subtle than you make out and indeed matrilineality is a central theme to his work. For example, on p. 21 he notes that the Ilava (Ezhava) of Southern Quilon followed a mixed system of inheritance; he also notes that around 56% of the Kerala population were matrilineal (ca. 1900, the Nairs were a substantial minority of around 15% - 20%, while Ezhavas were 40% or thereabouts and were the largest Hindu community - his figures). The Nairs certainly are viewed by anthropologists as the pre-eminent example of the matrilineality practised in Kerala but neither Jeffrey nor anyone else I have read says that they are the only practitioners. Take a read of Nair, for example, where you will find numerous anthropological sources. Jeffrey is fond of quoting A. Aiyappan - an anthropologist of the late Raj period and himself a Tiyya., IIRC - who said that aspirational low-status groups practised matriliny - "not the genuine one of the Nayars, but an imitation". It is a subtle distinction that you will not pick up from reading one paragraph of a book: you need to take it as a whole, in context. - Sitush ( talk) 21:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi Martijn. Please see google link here bit.ly/XKpMF8 Irajeevwiki ( talk) 22:51, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
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Bidi(local cigaratte) making can be included as it is was one of the largest employers in the state. the largest bidi company in private sector is still owned by a thiyya family. Keralone ( talk) 20:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
This article is getting better now, I didint read the entire thing but the 1st paragraph itself had many Propaganda items in the past, now it seems 'almost' ok.
& I have a suggestion that this 'kerala cast' related articles should be handled by malayalees itself as people from outside doesint know how things works here 1st hand. your ideas all arise from books & vague ideas happened to European writers or propaganda articles from kerala authors. May be thats how wikipedia works , but if malayalees handle this we will have the capacity to know which reference is true or false 1st hand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.216.74 ( talk) 07:33, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone obtain for me pages 358-360 of Farmers of India please. - Sitush ( talk) 08:14, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Keralone, you have just added a cite for a Kerala History Soc. thing called The Abstention Movement, in relation to conversions to Sikhism. It looks interesting but I can only see in snippet view - can you see the entire thing? Might be of use for other articles I am involved with. - Sitush ( talk) 14:13, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
No, but the Official government version of the movement is here http://www.old.kerala.gov.in/ele_rep/ele_51.htm . unofficial version to know more about politics during that time. http://dspace.vidyanidhi.org.in:8080/dspace/bitstream/2009/5135/9/KER-1989-090-7.pdf Keralone ( talk) 14:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately the full articles are available only through some libraries. I could get them if its on Jstor, but its not. Keralone ( talk) 22:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Both the Devi and Chopra citations used to support the Villavar-Ezhava connection are only available to me in snippet view. I am not happy with either of them because there is some (probably) significant context being lost. I would like to see the full text, if anyone can get it. If not then I would be inclined to remove the cites. Devi, in particular, makes an extremely sweeping statement and, to be honest, given the range of books that she has worked on I am not even sure that she is an authority on this matter. When an academic author has a unreferenced sentence that includes the words "some people say" then we should run for the hills. - Sitush ( talk) 21:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Notice to Keralaone. Please do not attempt to distort historical information.There is no evidence of Ezhava members skilled in the practice of ayurvedic medicine before the end of medieval period Kerala. Members of Ezhava community could make access to various professional careers by 18th century or later.Most of the Ezhava were illiterate till then. If you disagree, please prove it with reliable sources.
Primary education with letters were acquired by Nairs and other similar caste members , for the purpose of land title preparation , tax collection and local supervision there by to take up the role as land chief . This was imparted at village schools, where most of the avarna (ezhava)and out cates could not attend till 17th century. After 17th century primary education with malayalam and sanskrit was filtered to many avarna castes including Ezhavas. However the eligibility for higher education was vested with Brahmins and other higher castes . The British rule had changed the eduacation system and enabled many aspirants to achieve higher education ,which included Ezhavas as well. Truether ( talk) 14:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
I dont want to waste time arguing here..it is clear that you dont have any access to academic journals.. just google will not get you anywhere. the modern medicine is itself only few hundred years old. It is well known fact that there are two types of ayurveda, one practised by ezhavas and other by namboothiris. Ezhavas vaidyars treated 90% of the kerala population then. Brahmins would become outcaste if they treated others. Ezhava ayurveda is similar to that found in srilanka. Unlike other castes, ezhava population occupied a wide range of profession, and all these groups/subcastes were joined together by saint sreenarayana guru. anyways, at present ezhavas are leading the Hindus in kerala in all fields...so you can write what ever you want for the past as rulers then didnt want to acknowledge others achievement, which lead to their own destruction..
Ezhavas current and future history is unshakable.
see the link http://www.jstor.org/pss/312903 and you will see who did modern work on ayurveda from kerala. Keralone ( talk) 21:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Truether ( talk) 15:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Response to comments of Keralaone There is no pure reliable academic articles mention about ezhava as ancient ayurvedic physicians. It is sure that you may get few fancy full modern era writings (by ezhava or associted people) with self proclaimation that ezhava members had practiced ayurveda before the period of foreign alienation.Earlier, the occupational castes only had the right to practice various trades and professions in a society , unfortunately it was not the story with ezhava,these people could involve only in manual labor, coconut related works and toddy tapping.please do not get allured to that foolish reports , as sources for making wikipedia article. For readers of any article ,the rational and honest mention of the past and present is essential.
As we all know , in every family some may have a knowledge to practice the grandmas remedies for any ailment of their kin and kiths.Probably this may be the case of your belief that eahava had practiced herbal medicine.
whatever be the methods adopted for distorting the historical information,the truth will remain crystal clear to all. Just as evidences may pop up from any corner ,how hard the criminals endeavored to hide their act.Kindly use critical faculty before drawing conclusion on unreliable reports
Truether ( talk) 12:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Mathew, Truther is from south kerala, he won't change...most probably the changanassery type! Keralone ( talk) 01:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
truther you are correct, there were no physicians earlier, I work in healthcare field, you will be surprised to know that surgery was initially performed by barbers!. Basically Ezhavas knew better(hands on) about the plants and trees that existed in Kerala and its medicinal usage. At least that's what Portuguese found out and documented it sometime in 1700 and took it to Europe. read my link or similar ones.
Also all groups(kerala,Andra,karnataka or north india) engaged in preparation of "SOMA" had ayurvedic/medicinal knowledge. You must remember the social status of ezhavas across kerala were not same. Keralone ( talk) 01:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Keralaone, Intention of this discussion is not to insult someone. The practice of traditional medicine(Ayurveda) in ancient period of history invariably needed knowledge of sanskrit, fortunately or unfortunately this privilege was vested only with Brahmins or associated people.But the practice of herbal medicine or folk medicine was done by various cultural groups and they had been passing their lore to subsequent generation by oral means rather than writing .It has been reported by many writers that, in kerala , the diverse tribal people ( Mannan,Velan, Kaniyan), were worked as folk healers. The Ezhava had no access to sanskrit learning before the end of medieval period. By the turn of medieval period, many treatise and epics in sanskrit were translated to Malayalam , which helped common mass to attain the ancient knowledge passed from vedic period. Even in medieval period ,only few castes( Mannan,Velan, Kaniyan) were assigned with different specialties of treatment [ [1]]. Herbal medicine,sorcery and anti sorcery were also practiced by these groups.So Ezhava were no where in scene of Ayurveda practice, till the end of medieval period of Kerala. Truether ( talk) 12:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Common, dont be so narrow minded. the history of kerala is over 2000 years old. Namboothiris arrived in 8th century and they peaked their power with the help of nair minority between 13-17th century.(these are well documented in kerala history govt website, dont have a link now will provide when i find it) their decline started with arrival of europeans in 1700's. these are basically regimes that come and go in history. Just because a Sunni minority Saddam ruled Iraq for 25 years and suppressed shites doesnot mean, that shites were eliminated. Bringing up the Namboothiri link is typical of that period. not any more. It is must then Valmiki was also a brahmin!
"from your own link, it is clear that ezhava family traditions which is different from ashta vidyan (Pg 88) and evidence that it was documented by the marcopolo as early as 1300"
Keralone ( talk) 13:27, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
This link was given deliberately to convince you of the unreliability of the reports. please see the reference(Reference no25) they used for evidence of herbal medicine practice by ezhava- it is nothing but the unpolished wiki article Ezhava ( which we are struggling to make it more refined and useful) .If you go through the word ezhava (which is mentioned thrice in the article). Again it is well understandable from their writing that ezhava community made their foray in to practice of traditional medicine after only late 1800.
Truether ( talk) 16:58, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
what Iam trying to convey is that the presence of ezhava practitioners of ayurveda were noted only after late medieval period of Kerala. No reports is there , of ezhava attaining even the primary education or formal education before medieval period. For Keralaones kind in formation , you are mistsaken if you believe government websites are fool proof informative sources for historical reports.
Truether ( talk) 17:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Exactly, you sound like a pundit in history, may be you should help the helpless govt out!! .History was no doubt manipulated in all ages by the powerful. Probably I can come up with a theory that will be suitable for you to accept. I have heard that some Namboothiri vaidans were ex communicated for treating outcastes. these vaidans assimilated with ezhavas and spread ayurveda among them. This is only way I can convince you. (same as the ST thomas story).
Keralaone, wikipedia articles are not only for the ardent admirers or followers but also for the people of neutral in nature . Iam sorry that at times the discussion goes off the track, such exercises are done only for the sake of reasoning the points raised .Regarding government websites, we cannot ignore the news of corruption, nepotism and misuse of power by administrative figures in almost all democratically elected institutions. The non merit methods of selection of candidates to the sectors of public service and higher education could invariably results in slumbering and irresponsible attitude in the functioning of any government. So we cannot expect all the responses from public servants as error free and quality assured. That is all.
Truether ( talk) 12:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Even Narayana guru had acquired his philosophical knowledge from some other avarna caste teachers( Ayyavu swamikal)
The kolezhuthu script "lipi" was in fact derived from vattezhuthu in the era of 16th and 17th centuries at cochin and malabar region( palm leaf scripts on astrology and ayurveda are available)
Truether ( talk) 12:20, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Truether. read the citation in the article . It is clear and detailed on the Ezhava and Itti achuten ayurvedic links. if you have any reliable citation that says otherwise then put it up.
Keralone (
talk)
21:05, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
According to Sree Muthappan Thottam (song of Muthappan Theyyam, a Thiyya deity), the Thiyyas of North Malabar came from Karumana Nadu, the Thulu region of present Karnataka [Ref: Kaliyaattam, Mr.CMS. Chandera, NBS]. The Baigya (Vaidya) Thiyyas were supposed to be come from Thulu Nadu and the Kodava Thiyyas were supposed to be come from Kodagu Nadu, the nearby area. This distinction had been there until now. But apart from this, in the later times, there was also another assortment of splitting up of the Thiyya groups according to the occupation. The groups that performed Theyyam were known as Vannans or Mannans. Those connected with hair cutting were known as Kaavu Thiyyas, those connected with teaching were known as Ezhuthachchans and those connected with astrology were known as Kaniyas. At present, these groups are treated as entirely different castes. Now, the Thiyyas who are experts in Kalaripayattu are known as Gurukkals, those connected with patient treatments are known as Vaidyas and those connected with coconut climbing are known as Thandans. All the above groups are the components of a vast populace came from the Southern part of Karnataka. According to Mr. T. Damu, a well known journalist, [Lanka Parvam] the ancestors of the present Thiyya community who lived in the Western coast of India including Karnataka, Maharashtra and Gujarat were came from Thiyyan high ranges of Kyrgyz region in Central Asia. A large bulk of people were fled to East due to a massive earthquake in the above region and settled in the Western coast of India around 7000 BC.
The Thiyyas were Buddhists like the Ezhavas of Southern Kerala. This is the only connection between the Thiyyas and Ezhavas. One group came to Kerala from Karumana Nadu (present Karnataka) and the other group from Ezhuvath Nadu (present Sri Lanka). The flow of people from different regions to Kerala might be due to the availability of land since it was a new land carved out from the sea due to a massive earth quake – so it was also called the land of Parasurama.
The Thiyyas settled in and around Vatakara are famous for their typical form of Martial art known as ‘Kalaripayattu’. Unniyarcha was a legendary warrior figure of the Thiyyas, lived in Puthur (New Land) near Vatakara in 12th Century AD. She was the sister of ‘Aromal Chekavar’ and ‘Unnikannan’ and mother of ‘Aromalunny’. The songs and chronicles have kept the legend alive to this day. She was born in ‘Puthooram Veedu’, a famous Thiyya family. Like her brothers Unniyarcha was also trained in the arts of war. She is praised in Puthooram pattu, first in the series of Vadakkan pattu. She is considered as a heroine and symbol of female ability. Her brother Aromal was a reputed man of great chivalry and bravery. (Ref. Pazhassi Raja– Vatakkan Pattukal - Payeri Krishnan). The famous Italian Traveller, Marco Polo, (13th Century AD) portrayed the Thiyyas of Malabar as business men and merchants. The settlements of the Buddhists were known as palli or paadi. By means of the contacts with the Arabs, big chunks of this Buddhist group were later converted to Islam, and their Pallis were converted as Muslim shrines with the same name Palli. The residual groups turned to Hindu mob and divided into different castes as stated earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.251.21 ( talk) 05:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Provide some reliable citations and then may be we can include them in the article.
Keralone (
talk)
11:15, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
I have just cut
In 1921 an extensive effort to reach a thousand Ezhava families living in the coastal areas of Alappuzha and hilly area of Pathanamthitta was initiated by an independent committee, in relation with the CSI church. With Isabel Baker's (CMS Missionary) generous contribution, a school, hospital and a coir factory were established under the title Karappuram Mission in the Shertellai area and as a result, thousands of Ezhava families converted in areas of Alappuzha and Pathanamthitta to Christianity. [1]
Sree Narayana Guru described the conversion since he said that they were made for materialistic or temporary benefits, convenience, or as an escape from discrimination and religious persecution. These principles formed the criteria for his support of conversions and re-conversions. [1]
from the article. I can only see a snippet view of Srivastava here but I searched on:
Of these searches, the only one that returned a result was "Christianity", and that had just two mentions, the latest being about the 19th century. Something seems a little wrong here. - Sitush ( talk) 02:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, it is there on the church website, it looks like information is correct. http://www.csimichigan.org/CKD_Chapter2.htm
http://indianchristianity.org/csi.html but I agree we need more reliable links. Keralone ( talk) 06:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Ezhavas were known as chera kings in the past because
>>there body was so much flexible to climb coconut trees like chera(a poisonless snake in malayalam).
>>when Marco polo visited kerala he noticed this ability of ezhavas and adressed them as "CHERA KINGS". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.30.56 ( talk) 09:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
why u need source..it's already there in the article.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.30.56 ( talk) 09:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Please don't remove that.That's the only one positive thing we have in this article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.30.56 ( talk) 09:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
ok if that's ur wish do it.no probs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.113.225 ( talk) 10:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
In earlier years Padmanabhaswamy Temple and its properties were controlled by eight powerful Ezhava feudal lords known as Ettuveetil chekons(Lords of the Eight Houses), under the guidance of the Council of Eight and a Half. Later, King Anizham Thirunal Valiya Marthanda Varma, the founder of Travancore, successfully suppressed the Ettuveetil chekons and his cousins following the discovery of conspiracies the Lords were involved in against the Royal House of Travancore.
SOURCE FOR THIS IS >> EZHAVACHARITHAM MAHAPURANAM written by VALMIKI
Sitush, these are vandals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keralone ( talk • contribs) 22:29, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Is there a book called EZHAVACHARITHAM MAHAPURANAM,written by VALMIKI.Is valmiki the one who wrote RAMAYANA,if that was the case we cud have related the entire 'Raghuvansham' with the Ezhavas.PLS Dont write blunder here.
Actually the Ettuveedans(pillai) controlled the army of erstwhile Travancore.
A K GOPALAN the first opposition leader in the Parliament is from Nambiar community and his wife Suseela Gopalan from Ezhava communit.consider including his photo in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.131.194 ( talk) 12:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
E.M.S Namboothiripad the first chief minister of kerala is from Brahmin community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.190.215 ( talk) 12:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Please check the reference cited (24),since there is no clarity.
The term Chekavar is only a misspelt word (spoonerism) "Chevakar' or "'sevakar( meaning servants or slaves ) .The real name of Aromal chekavar is Aromal Chevakar.[ [2]] Though genarally ezhava were considered as servants , often they had to fight against the their master's enemy .Similarly a tribal group ( Kurichiar) in north Kerala (Vayanadu) also had the privilege to be assigned for fencing purpose - especially by Pazhassi Raja. So it does not mean that the members of those caste were Kshatriya or warriors.
Truether ( talk) 16:38, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Now the this books is written forign national and have more or less symmetric view on any caste . So the book should be considered as a major source for kerala history~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.241.58.152 ( talk) 12:27, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Apparently, this article is looking scruffy now and even the citations are distorted to fulfill someone's vested interest. For e.g. look at the citation which is about the genetic study of Nairs are Ezhavas. Here are the excerpts. "Genetic distance estimates using the gene frequency data indicate that the closest groups are Nayar, Ezhava and the Brahmin and Nayar. The tribal populations are approximately twice as far as from the Nairs as they are from Ezhava." - What does this mean..It just says the gene frequency is closer between Nairs and Ezhavas(and is same between Nairs and Brahmins as well) compared to tribal, that doesn't mean that they are same, it is just a comparison between these different sections (nair,brahmin and ezhava) w.r.t tribal. It also says the frequency of Nairs is twice as that of Ezhavas from the tribal which is a clear indication that both Nairs and Ezhavas have different frequency. Take a look at the second reference. "Ezhava to have a significantly lower frequency of group A and group B than do the Nayar" - This is pretty straight forward; it simply says they are different.
Some editors seem to be mocking and challenging at the perceptive capacity of the readers. A handful of new found 'cloud editors' are apparently 'bulldozing’ the efforts made by certain sincere anthropologists and their research for ages. ( User Lambodharan)
where does it say they are same? even first cousins gene frequencies may not be same. it just says that "gene frequencies are closer between nairs and ezhavas".
Definition of GENE FREQUENCY
"we are all, regardless of race,caste,religion,country genetically 99.9% the same". Keralone ( talk) 12:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Well..if that is the logic why only Nairs, rather we could make a statement that Ezhavas and Anglo-saxons have same genes..it is as absurd as saying that all ezhavas and nairs have 2 hands and 2 legs and hence they are of same genetic stuff..the citation doesn't make any sense. There is no findings or studies whatsoever for a common origin of these two communities. Some editors are making this place dirty by adding their own theories which is totally unacceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lambodharan ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Looks like there are studies out there. the summary is "The absence of any cluster along with low average GST is suggestive of substantial genetic similarity among the studied populations, in spite of clear geographical, linguistic, and cultural barriers. This similarity indicates either a greater gene flow between these groups or, alternatively, may reflect a recent evolution for them, considering that the Indian caste system evolved only about 3000 years ago."
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/human_biology/v075/75.2ghosh.pdf http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200304/ai_n9235661/ Keralone ( talk) 11:00, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
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Please change the following, in the section, "Position in society" //Although Ezhavas performed the work associated with the Hindu ritual rank (varna) of sudra, they were considered as untouchables or avarnas by the Nambudiri Brahmins who formed the clergy and ritual ruling elite in the region.[1] This was despite their ancestors Villavars belonging to the Shudras Varna.// Please replace it with the next sentence. //Ezhavas were the avarnas or in other words didn't belong to the chaturvarna system either by their own choice or by use of force.// Reliable source is the book of Dr. S N Sadasivan " A Social History of India. In this book as well as countless other records and official documents Ezhavas are known as not belonging to the chaturvarna system of the Hindu society. Ss19751975 ( talk) 19:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The similarity between of Kalarippayattu (angam)of Ezhava/thiyya coomunity and the martial arts of Sinhalese whose name is also angam is interesting. The 'angam' of Sri lanka is dated back to thousands of years where 'kalarippayattu' in kerala has a recent origin.This is a new evidence recognized recently. 'Vadakkan paattukal" says the ancestors of thiyya warriors came from an Island! The food habits (eg "Puttu" in malayalam, 'pittu' in Sinhalese) old ornamental habits, and surprising similarity between Malayalam and Sinhalese script indicates an past influx to Kerala.
Modern genetic studies reinforce Srilankan origin :- Modern studies using molecular biology techniques are also supporting Sri Lankan origin of Ezhavas. A genetic study conducted in Rajiv Gandhi Center for Biotechnology, Kerala (A crypto-Dravidian origin for the nontribal communities of South India based on human leukocyte antigen class I diversity R. Thomas et al Tissue Antigens ISSN 0001-2815 2006) states that "A strong East Eurasian (populations east of India and central Asia) element is noticed in the allelic distribution of the Ezhavas and its proximity to the Mongol populations in the bi-dimensional plot. This signifies a strong influence of the Mongoloid communities.This is also supported by the probable existence of a Buddhist past among the Ezhava who migrated from Sri Lanka in the ninth century". Since Sinhalese share similar East Eurasian ancestry, Sri Lankan origin hypothesis becomes more credible (HLA analysis of Sri Lankan Sinhalese predicts North Indian origin. G. N. Malavige et al, International Journal of Immunogenetics Volume 34, Issue 5, pages 313–315, October 2007. Shaanvet ( talk) 04:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
The Namboothiri article in Malayalam wiki says that there many ezhava families were socially converted into namboothiris
14.96.130.30 (
talk)
14:55, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
"The Nampootiri Brahmins of Kerala have except for their vedic belief, nothing in common with the Brahmins of other regions and it has taken for them over 400 years consistent struggle employing every tactics to climb to the top of the social ladder. Conversion to Brahminism continued through seven centuries from the eighth and Kodungalloor Kunjikuttan Tampuran, an ardent supporter of theirs from the old ruling classes versifies (stanzas 113 and 114 of his poetical work Keralam) that the erudite and venerable Buddhist monks were made Brahmins and depending upon the occupations they followed, the Buddhist laity were declared to be of different lower castes. Although for the Tampuran, this method or conversion and creation of castes has been novel, it has been employed by the Brahmins all over India for vanquishing Buddhism. Even after the Buddhist faithful were, by a large, categorised as Ezhavas, as a conciliatory gesture or as a matter of necessity, selective migration from them to Brahminism was encouraged and according to Kampil Ananthan (A Critique of Kerala History or the Antiquity of the Tiyyas in Malayalam 1935) Nampootiri families of Andalur, Nilamangalam and Olacheri were converted en masse from the Ezhavas who were leaders of kazhakanms or regional assemblies which had the authority to hear and give verdict on cases." (p309)
-- Nair ( talk) 08:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone justify the images used in the infobox? Either before or since the additions of today? I know that this discussion has taken place with regard to some other Indian caste articles and suspect that there is little difference between them and this one. To me, they represent cherry-picking and undue weight, as well as having the potential to "flood" the top of the page with visual clutter. - Sitush ( talk) 21:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
One thing should be analysed with the reasons that, in the articles related with other casts, they deliberately trying to include maximum number of heroes and heroines from their category, even if those persons are not that much noticed in the society; with an aim to expose the artistic and cultural representation from their communities. But in this article about " Ezhavar ", what we can see is people deliberately avoid the heroes and heroines like ...Kavya Madhavan, Samvritha Sunil, Vineeth Sreenivasan..etc. What is the reason behind ???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sajisaji ( talk • contribs) 05:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Kavya madhavan does not belong to Ezhava community,she belongs to Saliya(chaliyan)community.This caste is a prominent group in north malabar,most of them converted to ezhavas in south travancore-they formed the weaver section of the community in ancient period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.53.160 ( talk) 18:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
This article has been mentioned at Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics MW ℳ 03:54, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
what is the relevance of the first heading as 'etymology' and only one sentence as 'it is uncertain' in it. Its better to avoid that seection Rchampadan ( talk) 14:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
The article currently says
According to legend and some Malayalam folk songs, the Ezhavas were the progeny of four slaves that the king of Ceylon sent to Kerala at the request of the Chera king Bhaskara Ravi Varma, in the 1st Century AD. These men were sent, ostensibly, to set up coconut farming in Kerala. Another version of the story says that the Sri Lankan King sent eight martial families to Kerala at the request of a Chera king to quell a civil war that had erupted in Kerala against him.
It cites "EMS Namppothirppadu, Keralam Malayalikalude Mathrubhumi Desbhimany publications, VOl1, 1947 page 27" as the source for this. I would be grateful if someone could provide an English translation of that page and an explanation as to why this is a reliable source. It has been tagged with this request for a couple of months now, although at least one contributor keeps changing "slaves" to "bachelors" without giving any reason for doing so. - Sitush ( talk) 16:23, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
The Ezhava community comprises many sub-groups. Has anyone got an official recent source that confirms that all Ezhavas are classified as being Backward Class and that this is so throughout India? My experience is that in situations such as this it is often the case that some subgroups are classified as OBC, for example, while others are BC, and also that their classification varies from one region to antoher. - Sitush ( talk) 16:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Well.. Thiyya is different from Ezhava. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.7.136 ( talk) 08:23, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
I tagged some citations that needed additional info a few weeks ago. They are:
Unless someone can actually provide the pages in those sources that specifically refer to Ezhava then I am inclined to delete the section which discusses early references found in inscriptions. I am sure that there are other people than me who are aware that these things are often dubious and that those who study inscriptions often speculate rather than say flat out that a given word of 2000 years ago (or whatever) is definitely the same as a modern word. Unfortunately, it is "flat out" that we need, otherwise we are heading into the realms of original research. - Sitush ( talk) 07:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Nothing here is written in stone, everything can change. Nonetheless, recently there has been yet another attempt to POV fork and otherwise exemplify an alleged distinction between the Ezhava and the Thiyyar titles. The result of that was not merely a lack of consensus but also a salting of one of the primary targets for these campaigns, as per this log entry. As a consequence of these recent events, I have reverted this contribution.
As per the deletion discussion, if anyone wishes to continue to develop the notion that there is a distinction between the Ezhava and Thiyyar communities then they are welcome to do so. However, the starting point would be to add content to this article that complies with our policies, the most fundamental of which can be viewed here. Should things develop in a manner that is significant then, yes, it may be possible to open a discussion about forking the article. Until that time, please do not disrupt our articles with poor edits. Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 00:45, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Thiyyas - Had Matrinllenal inheritance, mainly warriors or traders, Serpent worship, better social status, meditarenian physical traits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.106 ( talk) 10:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Thiyya - Ezhava issue is much more complicated (much of the dispute between users is arising because of inability to understand each other’s position). Although there are differences between Thiyya – Ezhava, this difference has nothing to do with the Thiyya/Ezhava caste specifically. It has more to do with interaction of geography and caste- North Malabar vs rest of Kerala. Native North Malabar families irrespective of their ethno-religious background within this area have maintained distinct practices and superior rital-status compared to their southern counterparts, akin to a sacerdotal supremacy. For instance matrilinial Thiyyas, Virilocal-matrilinial Nayars, Matrilinial-Mappilas, Matrilinial Namboothiris of Payyannur etc of North Malabar, have maintained distinct status and is not unique to Thiyya-Ezhava issue. Multiple historians and anthropologist such Gough, Shneider, Logan, Fawcett, TKG Panicker , Praveen Kodoth etc have all commented on this geographic issue for one or the other castes including Thiyyas and Mappilas. Therefore to portray Thiyyas as distinct from Ezhavas would not be correct per se. Neither would it be correct to see them as one. The “factual-accuracy” lies midway between the two disputing groups of users and hence to come to NPOV – either parties must acknowledge that the other has a point.Hope this helps. VS Vettakkorumakansnehi ( talk) 09:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
I have removed two subsections, viz:
Theories of origin
According to historian C. V. Kunjuraman, the two gods of the Buddhist Ezhavas, namely Cittan and Arattan, are in fact Buddhist Sidhan and Arhatan from Buddhism. full citation needed T. K. Veluppillai, the author of The Travancore State Manual, believes that during Buddhist ascendancy in Kerala, before the arrival of the Tulu Brahmins, "the Ezhavas enjoyed great prosperity and power" (II, 845). However, he also says that it is very unlikely that the Ezhavas came from Sri Lanka and spread all over Kerala; instead they were the mainstream of Munda-Dravidian immigrants who left Tamil Nadu in the fifth, sixth, and seventh centuries to avoid persecution at the hands of their political enemies. full citation needed
and
Inscriptions
The first reference to the word Ezhava found in Arittapatti inscriptions of 3rd century BC near Madurai, talks about 'Eelava perumal, chief of Nelveli, has caused the carving of this auspicious cave'. Famous Kilavalavu Jain cave inscriptions of 3rd century BC talks about an ezhavan who built Buddhist monastery there. Another inscriptions of BC 2nd century found near Alakarmalai talks about an ezhava textile trader 'ezhathu theevan athan'. [2] full citation needed [3] full citation needed [4] full citation needed
They have both been tagged as requiring more detailed citations for some time now, and I have some doubts regarding the reliability of some of the sources. - Sitush ( talk) 18:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Unlike other places in India the Caste system in Kerala was very complex and rigid. It is mainly divided in to two groups, the caste hindus or Savarna( Nambudiri and Nair) and Avarna. The higher caste hindus ( Nambudiri and Nair) and Syrian Christians treated Ezhavas as untouchables. [5]. A Nair had the right to behead polluting lower castes including Ezhavas immediately. [6].
It will be great if you can read the first reference and page 12 to 14 of the second reference. And I think the matter is very relevant in the context. Dakshinsamudram ( talk) 02:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
THIYYAR / THIYYA Thiyyar / Thiyya not a subcaste under Ezhava. it has its own identity and it is a caste itself not a subcaste. The culture, tradition even physical appearance, skin colour completely different from Ezhavas. They are Other Backward Communities thats all one thing common among them. Please delete Theyyam, Izhathu mannanar, and also delete the part which referring people from Malabar, they are thiyyas not Ezhavas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.18.3 ( talk) 02:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
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Tiyyas, Thiyyas and Theeyas in Malabar have to be removed from the article. the said community is a unique and different community and have very little connection with ezhavas. article have to remove all the references regarding the thiyya community. 122.174.195.192 ( talk) 18:46, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Ezhava#Dispute_between_Thiyya_and_Ezhava refers to a threat by a Thiyya organisation to mount a legal challenge against the state government. The source is very poorly worded but, if I'e read it correctly, it was indeed just a threat. Since that report is from January 2012, I'd expect that there would be an update by now, even allowing for the legendary slowness of the judicial process in India. However, the section was only added a few days ago and if that source is the best that we can do then I think we might be in WP:CRYSTAL territory because there is a distinct possibility that posturing was going on. - Sitush ( talk) 22:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi Qwyrxian I will be uploading some documents to back up my claims. Also will give reference links, give me couple of days please. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 01:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Why someone is removing my comments without discussing? This is a talk page. Right? Pnranjith ( talk) 06:08, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi I am pasting a relevant piece of information from Edagr Thurston Book Caste and Tribes of Southern India TIYAN-39
collapse long, useless quote from the unreliable
Edgar Thurston
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Regulations keep the Izhuvans of Cochin and Travancore in a position of marked social inferiority, and in Malabar they are altogether unlettered and uncultured. On the other hand, the Tiyans of Malabar provide Magistrates, Sub- Judges, and other officials to serve His Majesty's Government. It may be noted that, in 1907, a Tiya lady matriculate was entertained as a clerk in the Tellicherry post-office. A divagation must be made, to bring the reader to a comprehension of the custom surrounding mattu, a word signifying change, i.e., change of cloth, which is of sufficient importance to demand explanation. When a man or woman is outcasted, the washerwoman (or man) and the barber of the community (and no other is available) are prohibited from performing their important parts in the ceremonies connected with birth, death, and menstruation. A person who is in a condition of impurity is under the same conditions; he or she is temporarily outcasted. This applies to Nambutiris and Nayars, as well as to the Tiyans. Now the washerwoman is invariably of the Tiyan caste. There are Mannans, whose hereditary occupation is washing clothes for Nambutiris and Nayars, but, for the most part, the washerwoman who washes for the Nayar lady is of the Tiyan caste. A woman is under pollution after giving birth to a child, after the death of a member of her tarvad, and during menstruation. And the pollution must be removed at the end of the prescribed period, or she remains an outcaste a very serious thing for her. The impurity is removed by receiving a clean cloth from the washerwoman, and giving in exchange her own cloth to be washed. This is mattu, and, be it noted, the cloth which gives mattu is one belonging to the washerwoman, not to the person to be purified. The washerwoman TIYAN-40 Gives her own cloth to effect the purification. Theoretically, the Tiyan has the power to give or withhold mattu, and thus keep any one out of caste in a state of impurity ; but it is a privilege which is seldom if ever exercised. Yet it is one which he admittedly holds, and is thus in a position to exercise considerable control over the Nambutiri and Nayar communities. It is odd that it is not a soiled cloth washed and returned to the person which gives purification, but one of the washerwoman's own cloths. So the mattu may have a deeper meaning than lies in mere change of cloth, dressing in a clean one, and giving the soiled one to a person of inferior caste to wash. This mattu is second in importance to no custom. It must be done on the last day of pollution after birth and death ceremonies, and menstruation, or the person concerned remains outcasted. It is note worthy that the Izhuvans know nothing of mattu. An Izhuvan will eat rice cooked by a Tiyan, but a Tiyan will not eat rice cooked by an Izhuvan a circumstance pointing to the inferiority of the Izhuvan. A Nayar, as well as a Tiyan, will partake of almost any form of food or drink, which is prepared even by a Mappilla (Malabar Muhammadan), who is deemed inferior to both. But the line is drawn at rice, which must be prepared by one of equal caste or class, or by a superior. An Izhuvan, partaking of rice at a Tiyan's house, must eat it in a verandah; he cannot do so in the house, as that would be efilement to the Tiyan. Not only must the Izhuvan eat the rice in the verandah, but he must wash the plates, and clean up the place where he has eaten. Again, an Izhuvan could have no objection to drinking from a Tiyan's well. Further, there is practically no mixture in the distribution of Tiyans and Izhuvans. Where there are Izhuvans there TIYAN-41 are no Tiyans, and vice versa. [In a photograph of a group of Izhuvan females of Palghat eating their meal, which was sent to me, they are all in a kneeling posture, with the buttocks supported on the heels. They are said to assume the same attitude when engaged in grinding and winnowing grain, and other occupations, with a resultant thickening of the skin over the knees.] Differences, which might well come under the heading marriage, may be considered here, for the purpose of comparison between the Tiyans and Izhuvans. During the preliminaries to the marriage ceremony among the Tiyans, the date of the marriage having been fixed in the presence of the representatives of the bride and bridegroom, the following formula is repeated by the Tandan or headman of the bride's party. Translated as accurately as possible, it runs thus. " The tara and changati of both sides having met and consulted ; the astrologer having fixed an auspicious day after examining the star and porutham ; permission having been obtained from the tara, the relations, the illam and kulam, the father, uncle, and the brothers, and from the eight and four (twelve illams) and the six and four (ten kiriyams) ; the conji and adayalam ceremonies and the four tazhus having been performed, let me perform the kanjikudi ceremony for the marriage of ... . the son of . . . . with .... daughter of .... in the presence of muperium." This formula, with slight variations here and there, is repeated at every Tiyan mar riage in South Malabar. It is a solemn declaration, giving validity to the union, although, in the way that custom and ritual survive long after their original significance has been forgotten, the meaning of many of the terms used is altogether unknown. What, for instance, |
Vineeth (vineethsat@gmail.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.13 ( talk) 06:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
This is the reason why I posted the blog link in my talk page. If an ISBN referenced book which is published decades back is not taken into consideration, what about the genetic studies conducted by Dr. Shyamalan, A very famous physician in the US? Pnranjith ( talk) 07:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Shyalaman has also been brought up in previous discussions about this subject. He commissioned a private study of his own genetic structure that somehow proved he came from Kyrgystan. Or something along those lines - I forget the detail. He was deemed to be a complete aberration on this issue and - yet again- none of this is relevant to the purpose of this section. You've been advised by several experienced contributors regarding what is required. Thanks. - Sitush ( talk) 07:31, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
As we have a few eyes on this article at the moment, I would welcome comments on the following statements that have been tagged as dubiously sourced since June 2011:
In 1896, a petition with more than 13,000 signatories was submitted to the government asking for the recognition of the right of the Ezhavas to enter government service; the upper caste Hindus of the state prevailed upon the Maharajah not to concede the request. The outcome not looking to be promising, the Ezhava leadership threatened that they would convert from Hinduism en masse, rather than stay as helots of Hindu society. Diwan, Sir C. P. Ramaswamy Iyer, realizing the imminent danger, prompted the Maharajah to issue the Temple Entry Proclamation, which abolished the ban on lower-caste people from entering Hindu temples in the state of Travancore.
Whether reliable or not, the source is difficult to track down because of the incompleteness of the citation. I suspect that the statements might be broadly accurate but surely we can improve on the sourcing? And, if not, then it probably needs to be removed. - Sitush ( talk) 01:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
You are picking up little things like minor typos, by going into irrelevant details by that way you can deviate the attention. Not criticising you but i have noticed that you keep squabbling on things and in the background you are utilising that time to fix article. Same thing happend with “SubCastes” Not ready to accept that you were wrong
Regarding Damu. He is a new writer compare to Nossitor and Edgar & Thurston. You are actually manipulating my words and using against me.
The Hindu article says Disputing the general belief that Ezhavas of Travancore and Thiyyas of Malabar in Kerala are the one and the same community, the book claims that they have no hereditary or historical link as they migrated to the State centuries ago from two different geographical regions. Mr. Damu says that Ezhavas, who are predominant in the southern part of Kerala, migrated to the State from Sri Lanka being the descendants of Sinhalese. ``Therefore, there is no link whatsoever between them. They are two different communities
This is not a review as you mentioned before but it is an article published by The Hindu, most reliable and yes, i would like to know why you can not agree with his views. But you agree with what Nossitor wrote about Ezhava and Thiyya but i would say you are conveniently ignoring the fact that they are two different castes.
You didnt say anything about SSLC Certificates which show different caste names, Irajeevwiki ( talk) 02:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Thurston's primary means of classification of people into caste and tribal groups was using anthropometric techniques. These techniques are not generally accepted today and I suggest that Thurston be used very carefully. It would be better to do so indirectly, through more modern reliable sources that quote or use Thurston, rather than directly referencing his work. Treat him as a primary source. -- regentspark ( comment) 19:58, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
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Thiyya, Thiyyar, Tiya, Thiyya are a different caste in Malabar area of Kerala and the only link with Ezhava is they both belong to Other Backward Communities in Kerala. Please do not mention that Thiyya is a sub caste of Ezhava in the Article, None of your citation links say that Thiyya is a subcaste of Ezhava therefore you need to either remove all the references about Thiyya, Thiyyar, Tiya or Thiya from this article or describe Thiyya caste in detail in the article. Ezhathu Mannanars was not Ezhava Dynasti, Wikipedia has got a page for Ezhathu Mannanars and it has got valid reference which says Ezhathu Mannanars a Thiyya Dynasty. Please do not ignore this edit request. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 04:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Irajeevwiki ( talk) 09:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Until independent reliable academic sources recognise the complete distinction between Ezhava and Thiyya, we have a problem here. Please also note that in the event that such sources are found, we would show both sets of opinions. That is, that some academics consider them to be Ezhava and others consider them to be distinct. - Sitush ( talk) 17:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Edgar Thurstons book clearly mentions the difference between Ezhava and Thiyya .. ( vineeth ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.13 ( talk) 03:57, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
@Sitush .. Edgar Thurston was a well recognized gentleman who served as superintendent at Madras Government Muesuem . He has enough experience in India to write about caste and tribes . And do you think you have any credibility to disapprove of him . what is your qualification to question him . "He was assisted in the writing of Castes and Tribes by a colleague from the museum, K. Rangachari, who had also assisted him in a 1906 ethnographic study, Ethnographic Notes in Southern India. Rangachari had supplied most of the forty photographs used in this earlier study.[2] The September 1910 edition of Nature described the work as a monumental record of the varied phases of south Indian tribal life, the traditions, manners and customs of people. Though in some respects it may be corrected or supplemented by future research it will long retain its value as an example of out-door investigation, and will remain a veritable mine of information, which will be of value Thurston was awarded the Kaisar-i-Hind, first class, on 26 June 1902.[5]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.241.171 ( talk) 07:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
the writer never said that Thiyya is a sub caste of ezhava in the book. Thiyya is a separate caste from Malabar and ezhava is from travancore. On the same page. :Ref 1, Nossiter p 30, second para explains about the differences of both castes. Majority of the Ezhavas were agricultural labours whereas thiyyar were toddy tappers.
Irajeevwiki (
talk)
19:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Doubtless, it is the regional differences and the possible socio-economic gains to be made that are driving the present-day Thiyya desire to be seen as entirely distinct but until reliable sources say this, there is nothing we can do to change it here. What we need is some decent, neutral stuff discussing any present claims to the difference. ... and I do not mean agitative Thiyya-based sources as I am pretty sure this campaign both on- and off-Wikipedia is driven by some ulterior motive. Find someone like Christophe Jaffrelot who specialises in the politics of caste and is an active academic with no axe to grind. - Sitush ( talk) 20:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Sorry
Sitush Please do not remove any comments left by other wikipedians as we need all the comments posted here to resolve this issue. Dont take it personally. We are just having a discussion here on whether you need to take all Thiyya references off from your article or not.
Irajeevwiki (
talk)
01:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
You have taken whole sub caste section off from the article which is good. You are actually manipulating fact here by claiming some word references from books. Ezhavas always wanted to merge with thiyaas, that's just for political gain. Since Thiyya and ezhava got completely different culture and history, we can't merge them here on the wiki. Also Thiyya caste needs to be explained more in wiki, about culture, worship, wedding etc. better you please write only about Ezhavas. Your article nicely explains ezhava caste . But If somebody wants to know more about Thiyya, there nothing here in wiki. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 19:51, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi Zebedee|Boing! I think you have not noticed the valid reference link and a snapshot of the page i have included in my previous message here. Please see above, it explains castes are different. Sitush, Please do not personally attack somebody, which is against wikipedia rules. We are trying for a public consensus here by discussion. I am not using wikipedia as a soapbox. If you want more reference links i can produce in couple of days. I have read many books published in the past which explains the difeence between these two castes.
Irajeevwiki (
talk)
21:18, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Reliable source links have been provided in the reference section of this article. Hope you have read it. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 04:16, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Please tell me Sitush Why this book not reliable to you. It is published by Duke University USA. Why you believe this book is not reliable. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 21:47, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Far out !!!! When you read somewhere that they are different castes then it is ambiguous. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 03:15, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
I think I can explain to you. Because members from Thiyya and ezhava were doing same jobs in the past like toddy tapping, farming etc they got almost same social status in Kerala. Also they were Other Backward Communities in Kerala. Writer says That they are two different castes with same social status. Hope this helps. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 04:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
It seems that I was wrong to discount the background of Lukose, who does in fact fit the bill, but it is very poor wording and seems practically to be a throw-away remark in a book that consists primarily of individual case studies. I cannot understand why she choose to do this when, surely, she was aware of the issues. I might even email her, just to satisfy my own curiosity, because there are at least 32 references to Ezhava in that book but only a footnote for Tiyya. See pages 10, 16, 30, 32, 34, 41, 47, etc. Even the Tiyya footnote relates to a paragraph about the Ezhava, per pages 179-180. The source whom she is citing there appears to be Menon, Dilip M. Caste, Nationalism and Communism in South India: Malabar, 1900-1948. Cambridge University Press., which has been republished on several occasions (she says page 292 of the 1997 edition, which oddly enough is not one that I can find at WorldCat although there is a 1997 review). RegentsPark has borrowed a copy of that from a library but is currently travelling, per this message
Curiously, Menon's book concerns Malabar and apparently speaks only of Tiyyas, yet I have just begun to create Travancore Labour Association and there are numerous sources in that which say political activists from Malabar got involved with the TLA, which they say was an Ezhava organisation. And others who cite him, eg: this, call them Ezhava even when citing. They are not of use for this article due to synthesis but it exemplifies just how messy this situation is! I could speed things up by buying a copy - £25 or so - but I'm not inclined to spend money just to confirm/deny a single point. - Sitush ( talk) 15:40, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
OK. Spouse checked. No mention of Ezhava in index. None on page 107. Book ends on page 209 (though, I guess, Sitush already clarified that). -- regentspark ( comment) 17:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
RegentsPark, one should not name-drop, as Her Majesty the Queen said to me only the other day. Feel free to ask Prof Lukose regardless of my email: you'll more likely get a response. - Sitush ( talk) 18:17, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
In History section, there is a new section called "Legend". The citation given there is absolutely invalid. EMS Namboothiripadu is a politician. He has never done any study of ezhava. So, this has to be removed.
I think you will find that the tag that currently exists against the source in the article was added by me - I was reluctant to remove the information when there seems a reasonable likelihood that sources exist and one is in fact mentioned. Indeed, I have seen a decent source for it but I was unwell at the time and now I can't remember what it was! I need to get my brain into gear (Sadavsivan mentions it, I am sure, but he has proved to be a contentious source at Nair). - Sitush ( talk) 17:56, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the rituals, well, if you are blank about Ezhava rituals then how can you claim that there is a difference? It is the one thing that sources generally acknowledge to be at variance and, indeed, you have claimed that Theyyam is purely a Tiyya thing but cannot possibly know this if you are "blank" about Ezhava - all you know is that the sources you have read mention it in connection with Tiyya, which is perhaps not surprising since they are speaking of Travancore etc. Sometimes you have to read between the lines when analysing a source: what is it looking at and how might that affect the scope of its presentation. - Sitush ( talk) 20:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
This article written for misleading readers, please understand that thiyya is not a sub caste of any caste. Its independent cast and they have their own culture, tradition and history. Its just like Nair, Menon, Nambiar, Ezhava etc. If you look nair wikipedia article, they mention about menon caste that doesnt mean menon is sub caste of Nair, You can mention about thiyya in your article but dont mislead people by making thiyya as subcaste This article deceiving readers, written for political gain or something, please remove all above said references immediately.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.178.150.186 ( talk) 12:31, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
The evolution of the name "Ezhavar" was from the word from the place "EEzham". And they were called in the past as " Ezhavar". But it was by the British, " the Malayalam Illiterate People" who were incapable for normal pronunciation that word, started telling it as "Ezhava" instead of "Ezhavar". But it is a vulgar pronunciation of that word, and it is not the responsibility of Ezhavar to vulgarity of their pronunciation. We can see that, we are not calling the cast "Nayar" as " Naya OR Nayas", and we don't call the cast "Pattar" as "Patta OR Pattas ". Means the word "Ezhavar" also should be pronounced in the same manner as "EZHAVAR"instead of pronouncing "Ezhava". If the Government documents are the inspiring support to tell the word like that, what we should do is to change first the Government Usage - what was created by the Malayalam illiterate British, and blindly following monkeys .And now a days we can see that, So many families started using their name as word " Ezhavar" with their name.And so many started naming their new born babies also as the same using the word "Ezhavar". Like.... Sajeesh Ezhavar, Unnikrishnan Ezhavar, ramnarain Ezhavar..etc. In Malayalam, there you can find out a meaning for the word of " Ezhavar". But You can not explain the meaning of the word " Ezhava" / "Ezhavas" using the Malayalam Language. {{subst:Unsigned|
Whoever is deleting my comments is not good for him / her. I had posted comment on 26 March 2013 , 09:55, .. Its been deleted. Can you please stop doing that. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 10:41, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
There is a serious issues of balance with in this article there fore i have placed POV Check.
This article is violating wiki policy by creating Thiyya caste a fork of Ezhava, it is bad forking therefore i request the admins to remove forking of Thiyya to this article. Many contributors have been trying to convince the admin of the article to take necessary actions to fix the article's NPOV issues and produced many reputed publishings houses book references and Government Issued certificates but the writer is ignoring those valid and genuine supplied references and reluctant to make any changes to his stand. There are some admins ganged up with this article's admin and refusing to the other contributors request to change articles controversial subject.
Article Ezhava is exclusively for ezhava but intentionally merging Thiyyar caste with Ezhava while Thiyyar caste is completely distinct from ezhava. The writer ganged up with other admins and deceived a senior admin called Bwilkins in 2012 April ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thiyyar) and created Thiyyar Caste as a POV Fork of Ezhava which was a clear bad forking, there fore i humbly request to review the decision of forking of Thiyya Caste. I am requesting other senior admins to view the talk page of ezhava where many times Article writer threatens other contributors with block. A "Thiyyar" search in wikipedia should not redirect to Ezhava.
A POV fork is an attempt to evade the neutrality policy by creating a new article about a subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. POV forks are not permitted in Wikipedia.
Wikipedia policy is as per above mentioned, but a few admins just challenging wiki rules here and we are helpless and desperate here.
The latest reference link I have provided is valid and genuine reference from a book published by Duke University and Author is Professor Ritty A Lukose. The book says on page 235 Last Paragraph that Thiyya is a same caste position as Ezhava. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=R5gNOdw9E_0C&pg=PT269&lpg=PT269&dq=The+blindness+of+insight:+Essays+on+caste+in+modern+India+(Chennai:+Navayana,+2006)&source=bl&ots=B2pj6tuyzg&sig=8Nk9Rgn0gzUktwXJb8_ci4qyF50&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lf9DUc3CMeuaiQe87ICAAQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=tiyya&f=false
Below mentioned Section is wrong. Its been cited with very old and non reliable book. I have provided valid reference book above, please refer the book and correct the article. Also the article's Theyyam section is wrong. Theyyam doesn't relate to Ezhava so kindly remove or edit it. The Ezhavas are a community with origins in the region of India presently known as Kerala. They are also known as Ilhava, Irava, Izhava and Erava in the south of the region; as Chovas, Chokons and Chogons in Central Travancore; and as Tiyyas, Thiyyas and Theeyas in Malabar.[1][2] The Malabar Tiyya group have claimed a higher ranking in the Hindu caste system than do the others, although from the perspective of the colonial and subsequent administrations they were treated as being of similar rank.[1][3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irajeevwiki ( talk • contribs) 10:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
There are many reasons to put a POV Checkbtag, the article says something that other people would want to disagree with, As per wiki rule. An editor should not remove the tag merely because he or she feels the article does comply with NPOV: The tag should be removed only when there is a consensus that the disputes have indeed been resolved.. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 18:54, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
A research report published by Farooq College of Calicut University by prof. T. Muhammadali.
Page no. 4 Beginning of the page. Colonizers in Malabar recognised the different existence of Nayars and Tiyyas as Jatis. (Jati means Caste)
Page no. 4 End of first para.
"Tiyyas primarily concerned about acquiring education beyond everything else. The beginning of twentieth century witnessed mounting proclivity towards reform among Ezhavas though it was mainly concentrated in Travancore"
Also. Read CASTE, NATIONALISM AND COMMUNISM IN SOUTH INDIA: MALABAR 1900-1948. By Dilip M. Menon. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 199 which tells you the difference of Ezhava and Tiyya.
I have bought another book from Amazon hope i will receive in couple of days. I can upload pages to my server and provide link for you. Please do not remove tag from article. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 10:56, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I'll have to wait for you or RegentsPark to provide the info given on page 199 of Menon. RegentsPark was under the impression that Ezhavas were not referred to at all in that book.
What is the book that you have bought from Amazon? - Sitush ( talk) 18:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Completely agree with Pnranjith. Another book which says " Thiyyas consider themselves as a caste superior to Ezhavas" Link below http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Pd8aAAAAMAAJ&q=tiyya++and+ezhava&dq=tiyya++and+ezhava&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T4pOUbSlLsTRkwXskIFI&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBg Author Dr. CJ Roy, " The Thiyya Dilect" Madurai Kamaraj University. Irajeevwiki ( talk) 05:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Also see this if you cant trust Murkoth Ramunni http://books.google.com/books?id=HHev0U1GfpEC&pg=PA51&dq=Thiyya+matrilineal&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TlpPUd2aH8mWiQLgvIDgBA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Thiyya%20matrilineal&f=false Ranjith ( talk) 19:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Sigh. Ramunny is an odd source. It is practically a souvenir guide (80-odd pages) introducing the area where a new naval academy was to be situated. There are no sources apparent, the Northern Book Centre is not an academic publishing house, and Ramunny says in the preface that "A work of this size can have no pretensions of being exhaustive, and as regards accuracy I have done my best with the material available to me" - it is almost an apology. And who is/was Ramunny?
That aside, yes, it passes rapidly over the subject of matrilineal practises and includes Tiyya among them (no need for it to mention Ezhava because it concentrates on Northern Kerala). However, what Jeffrey says is far more subtle than you make out and indeed matrilineality is a central theme to his work. For example, on p. 21 he notes that the Ilava (Ezhava) of Southern Quilon followed a mixed system of inheritance; he also notes that around 56% of the Kerala population were matrilineal (ca. 1900, the Nairs were a substantial minority of around 15% - 20%, while Ezhavas were 40% or thereabouts and were the largest Hindu community - his figures). The Nairs certainly are viewed by anthropologists as the pre-eminent example of the matrilineality practised in Kerala but neither Jeffrey nor anyone else I have read says that they are the only practitioners. Take a read of Nair, for example, where you will find numerous anthropological sources. Jeffrey is fond of quoting A. Aiyappan - an anthropologist of the late Raj period and himself a Tiyya., IIRC - who said that aspirational low-status groups practised matriliny - "not the genuine one of the Nayars, but an imitation". It is a subtle distinction that you will not pick up from reading one paragraph of a book: you need to take it as a whole, in context. - Sitush ( talk) 21:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi Martijn. Please see google link here bit.ly/XKpMF8 Irajeevwiki ( talk) 22:51, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
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