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Actually, all of the European sections need this. The US page says it (apparently 27% of Americans have college degrees) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clguy1234 ( talk • contribs) 00:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The very word Europa [ˈjʊərəpa] is derived from the most ancient language of Europe, Lithuanian language and means the land surrounded by seas. 'Eura-' [ˈjʊəra] (Lith. Jura) in Lithuanian language means 'the sea' and '-pa' [ˈjʊərəp] (Lith. pa) means 'at'...it's the same as with word Prussia which in Lithuanian language means the land at/by Kiev Rus (Pa-Rus, later become Prus and Prussia or Borussia)...the prefix-suffix 'pa-' can be used at the beginning or at the end of the word like '-pa'.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.35.63 ( talk) 22:27, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
The introduction states Both World Wars were ignited in Europe greatly contributing to a decline in European dominance in world affairs by the mid-20th century as the United States and Soviet Union took prominence. My problem with this sentence is that to me it seems to suggest that there's nothing European about the Sovjet Union, when in fact the majority of its population and its capital Moscow, were European. -- Lamadude ( talk) 23:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I am not claiming that I posses any kind of absolute truth regarding this article, the geography or anything else. Its just that a legitimate concern was raised, and I tried to address it. What I also did, however, is that I stated that new suggestions would be necessary and welcome. You did not offer new suggestions, you simply rejected my solution and that's no solution at all.-- Satt 2 ( talk) 06:58, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
This user already created problems with Europe last month. He is now removing a rather neutral and undisputed statement in the lede, already carefully sourced in the history section. This statement is neutral and anodyne. Satt 2 has already been blocked for POV-pushing. If he continues to modify sentences like this in the lede again, he can also expect a block. Mathsci ( talk) 06:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Although I do agree with your rewording, this particular source is not very clear. It says "National Geographic" followed by what seems like a page number. Should we not be more specific? National Geographic what? A magazine? a World Atlas, or what? If its a magazine, stating just a number is misleading. It makes it appear as if it was a page number which is unreasonable since the magazine does not have 500 pages. On the other hand, if you are listing a specific VOLUME, please provide the year and the actual page in the magazine. All the other similar citations must be removed. If I use an old book from 1993 and provided only a volume number, would I expect people to go through the whole book in search of a specific information? Of course not, I would probably be banished from here very promptly.-- Satt 2 ( talk) 07:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep the last ten threads.-- Oneiros ( talk) 21:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Suggest a clear outline, somehow, of the countries to which the various islands, as shown in the map of the Mediterranean, "belong". Further the border of UK (ie including NI) from the Rep.of Ir could be made clear. England, Britain (Great Britain) and the UK are not clear to some. As to whether the Isle of Mann should be noted ...well....no comment!—Preceding unsigned comment added by Osborne ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Spain, the UK and France should all be coloured green, as they are partly outside Europe (French Guiana, Canary Islands, Bermuda, etc).
I'm not allowed to edit this page, apparently, but I'd like to note this part:
The part is where it says "Ancient Greece." Wouldn't it sound better if it were:
Ancient Greece should be replaced by whatever is there current-day, in other words Greece. Ancient Greece is no longer on the map.
EDIT: I'd also like to note that on the map, Greenland is not shaded green. If I'm not mistaken, Greenland is and has been owned by Denmark for years and years. Should it be green?
CaradocTheKing ( talk) 15:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
This article states: 448,569. There are actually over 500,000 inhabitants in Luxembourg http://www.lessentiel.lu/rechercher/story/10205295—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.77.46 ( talk) 08:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
In section "20th century to present", "Attack on Pearl Harbour" should be "Attack on Pearl Harbor". Tricericon ( talk) 19:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Disregard, hit enough edits to fix it myself. Tricericon ( talk) 20:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
To whoever reverted my edit, Pearl Harbor is a proper noun and thus should always use the American spelling. I have returned it to the correct version. Tricericon ( talk) 00:57, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.237.101.184 ( talk) 20:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The article claims that the border goes on Caucasus mountains and then in brackets Kuma-Manych Depression. none of this descriptions are among the most acknowledged border definitions. I am editing this mistake with more specific info.
ALSO: the map of Europe leaves out parts of Azerbaijan and Georgia that are Geographically part of Europe. Please, change the map. Thnx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickniko ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi, should all those images be place on the right on the
Biodiversity section, it looks a bit crowded - like they're shacked up.
Thanks
--
George2001hi
(Discussion)
08:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Europe is NOT a continent; it's a peninsula. You all are buying into a ridiculous convention established by Europeans. -- 68.173.110.157 ( talk) 16:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
In Kırdki (Zazaki) language: meaning of "Europe" is "sunset" and "Asia" is "Sunrise" and the "Africa" in front. Euro: today, pa: set, sink. Asia: Seem, seemed. Africa: Averda. Aver: front, averda: in front Zazaki is a first part of Kurdish language and the old language —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.163.76.248 ( talk) 21:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
It would be better with a map showing the borders between the nations. 85.165.198.52 ( talk) 14:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
It's not the 1.8 million years old from Georgia but 2 million years old "Australanthropus Olteniensis" from Romania, discovered by C.S. Nicolaescu-Plopsor. Close, very close with the georgian one. It should also be mentioned. P.S. the above map called "Cultural regions of Europe" is incorrect. The eastern/oriental and southern/meridional Carpathians are not a border for romanians, the triangle of Carpathian Mountains (Transylvania)is in fact the heart of Romania( 89.5% romanians from a population of 21.7 millions). The entire Romania is in south-eastern Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigshotnews ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a major inconsistancy between the total figures given for European population and the country figures. Given that at present Russia is included in Europe and has a land area of 17m kms - it seems unlikely that European total land area is only 10m. Population figures and area figures given in the table are 26,673,064 km2, 836,398,181 people and people/km2=31.35740869 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.204.49 ( talk) 18:25, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
The western eurasiatic languages (european) are based heavly on conceptual consonants (this is the reason for european "runic" alphabets-the sound/the letter unlike the asian ideogramic/logogramic ones influenced by vocalic inflections). In the name "Europe" we have 2 groups of consonants: R(L) and P(B, F, V, W). The consonant, "R" has the Repetiton role, being used in european languages to describe the Sun, characteristics of it (such as Repetition or bRoad aReas beneath the Sun). For example, my romanian word "rau" means "river"(repetition, flowing of water from an initial point to another), while the words "lac" and "loc" means "lake" and "place"(it shows the bLocking). The second consonant, "P" (sometimes replaced by consonantic group "C,G,K,H") has the role to show something similar in characteristic with water ("aPa" in romanian or "aQua" in latin means "water"), such as an eye, because an eye is made from water, it is clear/vision like the water. Therefore we have the greek word "oP" meaning "eye" or the romanian "oChi"-same translation. So, literally, "euRoPe" means "glittering eye"-"eyes like the Sun"-who are glittering in the dark, wich is the characteristic trait of a woLF. LuP/LuPo in romanian/latin means "woLF". If you replace "L" with "R" from the same consonantic group, we obtain the word "euRoPe". Also in greek we have the word "LyCo" from wich we have LyCantropy or the romanian "LiCari"(it means "to glitter" similar with "LiQuid", because the water shines/reflects LiGth). In scandinavian myhtology there is a trickster god called LoKi, who is the father of wolfs. In my romanian language, the word "RaPus" means "killed". It's made from 2 words: "Ra"(Sun) and "Pus"(put down), therefore if we take the "R" from "RaPus", we have the word "aPuS", meaning "WeSt/sunset"(the place where the Sun is killed/put down). So there is no surprise that in many languages, the particle "eReB" means "west" or "dark". Europe is the land of the wolfs with glittering eyes where the sun sets down.Bigshotnews 02:24, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
{{
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On the map of Europe change Armenia from being out of european borders to into European borders as my father has a very high position in Armenia and I have asked and researched about it and therefore I know that it is in Europe geographically,
Gevorkhagopian (
talk)
18:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
As I can't do that myself without creating an account, here's just the info. The link to "State of Europe's Forests 2007: The MCPFE report on sustainable forest management in Europe" should be changed to http://www.foresteurope.org/filestore/foresteurope/Publications/pdf/state_of_europes_forests_2007.pdf
212.79.161.210 ( talk) 09:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Is there some special reason why the Benelux is not included in the definition? I think it is traditionally considered as such, so if it is excluded, at least a reason should be given. 88.159.66.26 ( talk) 23:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Proposition: There should be a section enumerating and describing the names and purposes of ALL the various organizations which are accessible for countries (ie. the Member States) in Europe, such as the EU, EFTA, NATO, CERN, WEU, OSCE, Council of Europe, WTO, G8, G20, ITU, UN, etc, etc. From the standpoint of this article: "Europe" (not the "European Union"), the focus in such a section should lie explicitly on the several European States to clarify and compare in which organizations each of the various states (for example Britain and France) are a member, this is in contrast to looking at the various organizations (for example NATO) in order to see all countries who make up the Member States of that particular organization, or to looking at each country alone to see which organizations that particular country belongs to. It is important to have a comprehensive comparison chart of all the organizations (and their purposes) affecting the countries on the European map since each of all these organizations in the end refer to the same Member State, and ultimately, to the same taxpayer. Such comparison of the European States, and the organizations they constitute, should be clearly expressed in a table enumerating all the European countries on the leftmost column and the membership of all the organizations in the subsequent cells to the right of each country, but also be visualized in a single map with different colors depending on which (and how many) organizations each country is a member, with the EU/NATO map as a template ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_and_NATO.svg). Alternatively, such a section could be an article in its own right: the "European States" which would then link to both "Europe" as well as all the organizations, such as the "European Union", "NATO", etc. 83.177.143.118 ( talk) 02:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I dont think this article should be on wikipedia. Europe is not a continent and is part of Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.74.90.229 ( talk) 09:22, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion. However, what matters is that the vast majority of the world population that understands both the geography of Europe and the concept of continents considers Europe to be a continent. Thus, it is reasonable for this Wikipedia article to declare Europe to be a continent. 68.3.203.92 ( talk) 21:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
These have been discussed extensively in the talk archives and a consensus has long been achieved. Very occasionally and periodically this can lead to disputes on the status of Russia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia, etc. Transcontinental country has a natural ambiguity associated with it which cannot be resolved on wikipedia, where a completely neutral position is taken. The main map, its colouring, caption and footnotes reflect that neutral position. Mathsci ( talk) 00:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
I suggest chaging the first pronunciation to: /jʊərəp/
This way both the primary British pronunciation jʊərəp and the secondary American pronunciation jʊrəp (which can be used instead of jurəp) are represented, instead of just the former.
-- TheAmericanizator ( talk) 15:31, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.244.194.164 ( talk) 14:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
Europe is not a Continent
41.160.19.147 ( talk) 11:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
{{ edit semi-protected}} Regarding WWI and II, the article is written in a very one-sided view, from a western perspective, as the majority of english language pages are. Just to see if this will work:
- Russia did not suffer a defeat in the WWI - due to internal discontent, the country decided to withdraw from the conflict and negotiate a piece agreement with Germany. Compare that with the true defeat of Germany in WWI/II or Japan in II - very different stories;
- Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed after numerous months of failed negotiations between USSR and UK/France - this is not mentioned as per usual;
- To complete a full picture, next to 27 million perished Soviets, I would mention 0.9 million UK and US victims combined.
218.186.9.232 ( talk) 18:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
- Regarding the Pact:
Negotiations between USSR and France/UK started on 10/04/39, and by August 39 no workable solution had been reached. As a few examples, England objected to a list of guaranteed protected countries, inclusion of the Baltic states and Finland in the list, non-possibility of a separate peace agreement. They ultimately agreed to all points, but valuable time had often been wasted.
In July UK sent Admiral Drax to Moscow - a person who did not have any powers to decide upon important issues nor commanded any respect from the Soviets. Furthermore, UK took the longest route possible, by sea, to deliberately delay and sabotage a possible positive outcome. (Source - Great Soviet Encyclopedia (GSE) "Second World War" and ru.wikipedia.org on Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).
Importantly, it was known that whilst talking to the Soviets, London (Chamberlain through Wilson) was also secretly talking to the Nazis about possible non-objection to the latter's "interests" in the Eastern and South-Eastern Europe in exchange for non-aggression. Brits were also prepared to allow Germans to exploit their colonial African possessions. (Source - GSE)
This clearly showed Stalin West was playing a double game and could not be trusted.
Following the despicable appeasement of Hitler in the case with Sudetenland, even in March Stalin was furious at 18th VKP(b) summit: "some countries, fore-mostly Britain and France, refused to collectively provide a defence against the aggressor" and was disinclined to get involved with countries that used others only for their own benefit. Hence USSR was between the rock and hard place - they chose Germany.
In summary, the statement "the Germans turned to the Soviets, and signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact..." should be complimented "...after difficult negotiations efforts between the three powers of USSR, France and Britain could not proceed due to the political unwillingness and contrasting priorities of all parties." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.9.232 ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 23 November 2010 (UTC) 218.186.9.253 ( talk) 05:42, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Dear Moderator/s, Re: the above Pact, I note neither my suggestion has been implemented, nor at least any acknowledgement issued in the last 2 weeks. Does this mean you only allow information that represents a biased Western view? So much for freedom of speech and any sense of honest discussion... 218.186.9.253 ( talk) 14:12, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Isn't it what I did two weeks ago - please see above. To reiterate, the statement "...the Germans turned to the Soviets, and signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact..." should be complimented "...after difficult negotiations efforts between the three powers of USSR, France and Britain could not proceed (collapsed) due to the political unwillingness and contrasting priorities of all parties." This is to provide a fuller picture and dispel an underlying misrepresentation that the Soviets colluded with Hitler out of their own will - it was simply a political inevitability after UK and France showed their cynicism and indecisiveness.
218.186.9.253 ( talk) 19:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
It's true, "political unwillingness" is but an expression, perhaps just my opinion. Factually, it would have been truer to write of the collapse in negotiations due to secret negotiations of Western powers behind Stalin's back whilst smiling to his face...didn't want to ruffle feathers too much. Of course, "...Germany annexed the Sudetenland. This move was HIGHLY contested by the other powers" sounds very factual and accurate. Don't publish the truth...No wonder some choose to re-write the history and/or exclusively present it in a self-suited way...They have good educators... 218.186.9.253 ( talk) 20:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
This comes down to one question. Can you verify your opinion to be true. No sources no change. We can't risk any original research. Defianetly on something like this. − Jhenderson 777 20:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC) As per Wikipedia rules, pure facts, indisputable and verifiable: Please add to the statement "...the Germans turned to the Soviets, and signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact..." the following: "...after 4 months of discussions between the three powers of USSR, France and Britain on dealing with Nazi Germany in Europe, had not proven to be successful." (Sources - Great Soviet Encyclopedia and ru.wikipedia.org). This would remove any implied half-truths and at least make two versions of wiki (ru and en) comparable. 218.186.9.253 ( talk) 06:13, 12 December 2010 (UTC) Well, this is why in Nov last year I started by saying "just to see if this will work"...as the selectiveness of resources by Western researchers and skewed mis/presentation of debatable events is evident at every step. Even at this "local" level, you, so-called moderators, have tried every trick in the book - referred to 'no sources' when the presented evidence was abundantly clear, didn't introduce a comment that states an indisputable fact, simply ignored my messages for weeks and now resorted to blocking my IP without any reason...Commendable, "unbiased truth" distributors! Keep contributing to the cynicism in the world... Victorzim ( talk) 15:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, duh. It's widely known that Wikipedia is a power trip for moderators, administrators and so called "veteran users". When they disagree with something, they just reject it. Classic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.121.37.146 ( talk) 22:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
The sentences 'During the Cold War, Europe was divided along the Iron Curtain between NATO in the west and the Warsaw Pact in the east' (lead) and 'After World War II the map of Europe was redrawn at the Yalta Conference and divided into two blocs, the Western countries and the communist Eastern bloc, separated by what was later called by Winston Churchill an "iron curtain"' imply a complete partition. They do not account for the neutral countries. 212.183.140.19 ( talk) 15:42, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
I was thinking of adding information on Warsaw Confederation from January 28, 1573, as it was in fact the first document providing the citizens total religious freedom. The document was included by UNESCO in Memory of the World Programme (also called World Documentary Heritage). I believe that such important event should be mentioned in the article about Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.14.6 ( talk) 09:14, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
And, of course, Constitution of May 3, signed in 1791, as the first modern European Constitution should be included as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.14.6 ( talk) 09:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
I would like to add something on this article, actually remove a mistake... Northern Cyprus is not a country, no other nation in the world (excluding Turkey) recognizes Northern Cyprus as a country, so this mistake shouldn't even exist in Wikipedia. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.110.254.217 ( talk) 18:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
The image bloat is horrible. In the section Definition there are three images side by side, at left "the Historical Europe-Asia boundaries", in the middle the "Clickable map of Europe" and at right "Europa regina map". I think the half number of the current images are justified, the rest can go.
Rursus dixit. (
mbork3!)
15:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Disruption to article by sockpuppet of indefinitely banned user
User:Satt 2
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When maps have been in the article for a long time and where a consensus has been painstakingly developed, one editor should not unilaterally blank them, That was true in particular of the prinicpal clickable map, which is the result of many days of discussion over several years. Mathsci ( talk) 05:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
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As it stands, there is a pointless overlap between the two. I suggest redefining the geography section to simply Geography, and move all extent information up to the definition section. Chipmunkdavis ( talk) 07:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
First of all, Europe specifically excludes the United States.
Also, Europe is primarily secular. Hare Krishna, Christianity and Scientology are a Johnny come lately fad in Europe. There are religions that are more European and have therefore been around much longer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.40.45.183 ( talk) 21:28, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
A new table was added by ClungeLover69 ( talk · contribs) to the Political geography section. Since it seemed to be largely unsourced WP:OR, I reverted it to allow for discussion here per WP:BRD. I didn't look at each entry in detail; however, I could see no particular reason for including Bavaria, Brittany or for placing a French flag next to Catalonia. The table seemed to be potentially contentious. Its inclusion would just create instability because of the lack of sources and the arbitrariness of the entries. Mathsci ( talk) 17:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
The land use map seems completely wrong. According to this map, there is almost no forest in mainland Europe while Scandinavia is almost 100% forested. The description of the meaning of colours is incoplete. Markoeltermann ( talk) 18:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Greenland is in Europe. It stands tall against cocacolonization and will never surrender to the United States occupying forces. It stands alongside Denmark and others as a European country. It is the diamond on Europe's crown. United States Zero. It is official. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.167.68.107 ( talk) 17:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Greenland is a danish oversees territory and it is a part of the North American continent. Grennland is not a European terrotiry as Reunion is not a Europena territory, it belongs to France but it lies in Africa. Turkey is an Asian COuntry wich lies only in a small part in Europe, which doesn't make Turkey a European country, Turkey must be deleted from any European list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 04:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with: Russia; Georgia; Turkey; Kazakhstan; Azerbaijan. But what about France and Spain? Brownturkey ( talk) 19:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Border between Europe and Asia lies acros the Bosforo Strait. So Turkey is partially in Europe, which means Turkey is not a European Country, only the marginal area of that country must be considered European, reporting over 70000000 of people as european is complitely fake. Turkey must be deleted from any european list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 04:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
TURKEY IS NOT A EUROPEAN COUNTRY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east EUROPE IS NOT MIDDLE EAST. TURKEY MUST DELETED FROM THE ARTICLE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.105.115 ( talk) 15:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Sub tropical, your name just show your knoledge and concern to Europe: Part of France lies in Africa, South America, Asia, Oceania well France is a South American, Asian, African, Oceanian country an not a European country if Turkey is European. Reunion lies in Africa, French Guayana lies in South America, New Caledonia lies in Oceania. SO FRANCE IS NOT EUROPEAN COUNTRY AS TURKEY IS EUROPEAN!!!!THIS IS JUST RIDICULOUS, ISN'T IT? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 03:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Population of European Turkey: 71,517,100, Area :783,562 km²?????????????? Turkey is not Europe. EUROPE IS NOT TURKEY. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THEY HANDLED BRAINS?WERE AT THE TOILET?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population this article in Wikipedia shows that European Turkish population is just about 10000000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 04:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Turkey>Turkey is NOT Europe, only that small part lies in Europe which doesn't make the whole Turkey part of Europe thus it must be deleted from any european list as you can't find France in any African list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 04:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Why is Newgrange, built 3,100 BC, not listed in this section? Is it not a great monument like Stonehenge or Megalithic Temple of Malta?-- Ire2500 ( talk) 07:16, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
The culture section is painfully amateurish. I understand and agree with wanting to express the extraordinary impact European culture has had on the rest of the world but talking about Christianity stabilised it? Try built more than half of it and protected and guided it through the enlightenment when 99% of Europeans were still extremely Christian, as in went to church more in a month than most of us do in a lifetime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.27.225 ( talk) 02:31, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
I am aware that it is very much disputed which countries are included in Europe. But I do think that for the sake of consistency the map shown at the very beginning of this article should conform with the information provided in the text. So either the map should be changed or Chechnya should be included in the list of European countries. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 23:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
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In the religion section, please removed the (east) from Germany (east). Germany is not divided anymore.
118.93.209.184 ( talk) 07:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Why does the map in the infobox have no borders? I find that very weird. Is there a reason for that? Jørgen88 ( talk) 16:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
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Turkey is not Europe and any references must be deleted from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.33.251.173 ( talk) 20:12, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Still no answer on why it is not listed, someone simply deleted my comment -- Ire2500 ( talk) 13:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Reading the article I found much incorrect information.
Some of sentences use vague term Western and Eastern Europe which we used during the cold war and now have as many definitions as many there are scholars. This goes to a ridiculous idea that a wolf is primarily found in Eastern Europe and in the Balkans, with a handful of packs in pockets of Western Europe (Scandinavia, Spain, etc.).extenthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Present_distribution_of_wolf_subspecies_eur.jpg. This can be changed with short 'Northern Europe and mountainous regions of the continent' which reflects it better. Even more hilarious is the European bison part: 'Once roaming the great temperate forests of Eurasia, European bison now live in nature preserves in Poland, Russia, and other parts of Eastern Europe]]' -> in fact it does in these areas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_bonasus_distribution.svg. This means that the information was clearly incorrect because these reserves are very limited in terms of size and they are on the border of Poland and Belarus, and Poland and the Ukraine, regions tending to be called Central rather than Eastern Europe after the Cold War not to mention unspecified 'Eastern Europe'. Consequently I decided to correct it.
Keeping in mind size of Europe, I thought it will be wiser to specify information so instead of using 'Central, Eastern, North-Western etc. I changed it into specific places in order to avoid confusion and disappointment. So instead of saying Western Europe, whatever that term covers, I specified countries by name to make it much clearer, comprehensible and visible. -- Rejedef ( talk) 15:37, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Dear Mathsci - they are confusing terms because they have different meanings. You can see Western Europe as a bunch of non-communist countries... 22 years ago. CIA would say that Western Europe are France, the UK and the Low Countries. This is the confusion I make. And, after all, Europe is too small to separate it into regions. On the other hand, European nations tend to find differences rather than similarities between them. Instead of saying about regions, some of them are great, why not to specify, where possible, to make clear which country rather than telling that European Bison can be found in a region of Europe rather than mentioning that there are only 2 very tiny reserves in countries which we call nowadays Central (alternatively Central and Eastern Europe)? That was my motive to pursue changes. -- Rejedef ( talk) 23:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I did explain my position and, it is not a personal view. It is just an observer view, as I live in Europe and I see how terms are being used in media, books, politics and in scholarly papers. To prove my point I searched for tens of links -- Rejedef ( talk) 23:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, I did not make these sources. I'm not an owner of BBC or a boss of the European Union. Please check links below to see how the European perspective may very from an American perspective. By Europe is too small to divide I mean the President of the Europe, Jerzy Buzek's views. The fall of communism is significant because it challenged the East-West divide. New sub-divisions emerged and many old ones were revived. This is why it is relevant. It also enabled the European Union, the most important international organisation in Europe, to grow. Alss, European Bison is not an animal from prehistory as it is not extinct. Wee can agree in disagree that there was a sub-divvision of Europe suggested by the United nations but it isschallenged in Europe itself. I gave you resources to check it, if you don't trust me or you believe that you are right. -- Rejedef ( talk) 23:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I was quite happy with this edit by Rejedef ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [3]. Without any explanation, Rejedef very recently decided to revert his own edit. As I have written before, if Rejedef has decided that "Eastern Europe" or "Western Europe", etc, are not valid terms in sources, he will probably be topic-banned from a large range of articles on wikipedia under WP:AE. Mathsci ( talk) 22:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
? I revised the article changing its vaguely defined terms which are used in a different way or omitted. Instead, I gave more specific information. I also quoted tens of resources: academic, political and medial. If you see any error in my edits, please change parts you do not like. Please, do not revert everything. Also, please prove why you think my edits are wrong. -- Rejedef ( talk) 02:41, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
European Subdivision is a very vague topic: Eastern, Western, Central Europe change meanings quite relatively. This has to deal with many reasons. At the end these divisions are vague. Between the 1945-1990 it was relatively easy, still Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and Malta were confusing but we had Western and Eastern Europe for some time. Nowadays subdivisions very that much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe (at least 5 similar definitions); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe (again, at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Europe (at least 2 definitions) As you see, all of them are context dependent. It doesn't help that there are also old subdivisions (which we tend to bring back to life as they reflect the continent's complexity more): http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs42/f/2009/122/f/7/Europe_Division_by_JJohnson1701.png; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Central_Europe,_814.jpg; http://historyoftheancientworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/17th-century-map-of-Europe.jpg Although this model ( http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grossgliederung_Europas-en.svg) is pursued much in media: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1035212.stm (see Switzerland as a part of Central Europe and compare to other countries); http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2002/aug/26/naturaldisasters.climatechange; and European Institutions: http://www.ceinet.org/; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Initiative and Un institutions: http://www.grid.unep.ch/product/map/index.php Nowadays there are Unitarian tendencies in Europe: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0020-2754.2000.00409.x/abstract As a European I can tell you that geographical adjective has a derogatory meaning, like Eastern Europe, hence it tends to be not used, especially after the Fall of Communism in the continent. In addition to all that we have the Western Civilisation concept: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png As well as religions (yet influential to some extent): http://westciv2.umwblogs.org/files/2010/01/Europe_religion_map_en6-1024x833.png Now I hope you will not delete my revisions. I hope I explained well my position :) As you can see, the Fall of Communism brought not only new opportunities butt also re-discovery to Europeans after 45 years of separation. Of course I understand that outside Europe you use old sub-divisions, even these Cold war ones.
At glance: -there are no clearly defined regions in Europe: all of them may vary a lot; -naming a country helps to avoid misunderstandings and over-interpretation -- Rejedef ( talk) 23:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I do not agree: SOAPBOX is not a case here as it neither of those: -Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment -Opinion pieces -Scandal mongering -Self-promotion -Advertising. -- Rejedef ( talk) 12:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
These are resources for which you asked.
Number 1. European Bison habitat: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1472-4642.2011.00849.x/full http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/2814/0/full http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/2814/0/rangemap
Number 2. Europe new subdivision in use: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LHm1BSGiudAC&pg=PT127&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=europe%20regions%20central%20northern%20europe&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=o48LPwiQkzIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP11&dq=europe+regions&ots=xxgLcz2eEf&sig=zk-5IA-T7ivZVlKgqki53n8zyi4#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1Tk5O1G7tWcC&pg=PA1&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=europe%20regions%20central%20northern%20europe&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_BW0Ehau6oMC&pg=PA36&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x4gbSgAACAAJ&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA http://www.springerlink.com/content/l722418262211497/ http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2011.01730.x/full http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=6301140&jid=RIS&volumeId=20&issueId=01&aid=6301132 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0327.00018/abstract http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168192301002337
Please also see to have an insight into problems with defining regions itself by numberous scholars: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uZBhwij5Y24C&printsec=frontcover&dq=defining+regions+europe&hl=en&ei=vQKwTqnVBYrh8AOcudiuAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0491.00200/abstract http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09595237400185111 http://publius.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/4/141.short http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y-1fwix23zMC&pg=PA5&dq=defining+regions+europe&hl=en&ei=vQKwTqnVBYrh8AOcudiuAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Central%20Europe&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rejedef ( talk • contribs) 14:39, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
1. They are obsolete: Western-Eastern divide goes back to the cold war which finished by 1993. Using them in modern Europe is confusing and even offensive in post-communist countries.
2. Their definitions are very vague and very highly depending on a source: CIA defines European Regions differently than UNESCO (just one continent), the World Bank (one continent+Central Asia), the UN or even the BBC. Not to mention the region of Central Europe defined by the Central European Initiative. (Drake, Miriam A. (2005) Encyclopedia of Library and Information Science, CRC Press)
3. Using names of countries rather than whole region will make the article better in terms of quality because.
4. Using western and eastern terms is neglecting the diversity of great individualism of European countries and their cultural differences putting them into one, rather confusing basket: the UK and Sweden are in Northern Europe but Sweden is an ethnically homogeneous country while the UK is a melting spot; Romania and Bulgaria are in south eastern Europe but Romania speaks a Romance language while Bulgaria speaks a Slavonic language. France and the Netherlands are in Western Europe but France speaks a Romance language and is a Catholic country while the Netherlands is a predominantly protestant and speaking a Germanic language. Latvia and Russia are considered to be eastern European but Latvia speaks a Baltic language and is protestant and Russia speaks many languages, mainly the Slavonic Russian and is Orthodox.
5. Using regional terms we also fall into confusion: without specifying a country we may think that it is really about one region. Usually it is one or two countries declining and others in the region begun increase their power as power in Europe was always very fluid.
6. In his book 'Europe, a Political Profile [2 Volumes]: An American Companion to European Politics' http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=V1uzkNq8xfIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP2&dq=political+subdivision+europe&ots=_Lj0Nu59s6&sig=frYx0LKN03SVlm2SFByVmmFdv9E#v=onepage&q=central%20europe&f=false Hans Slomp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rejedef ( talk • contribs) 04:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia's goal to have a neutral stand. And my edits are neutral because they are specific. If you do not agree, please prove it. Essay like? I would expect to be serious but if you want to have incorrect or misleading information there, please go ahead but do not delete things without discussing them first. I understand adjectives but they are purely alleged, Mathsci. Please prove them. -- Rejedef ( talk) 12:21, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Two editors, Rejedef and Lguipontes, recently made changes which very much skewed the article. The extensive introduction of material on ethnic groups of Europe in one edit by Lguipontes seemed undue; extra material on Portuguese colonization could be added if properly sourced. The new section on human rights seemed quite unbalanced and appeared to be written from a Polish perspective. There is already an article Human rights in Europe, which is anodyne and neutral. If any material is warranted in this article on that topic, it would normally not be expected to diverge significantly from what can be found in the main article (although that article could not be used as a source). Cherrypicking sentences from sources to add WP:UNDUE content is not the way to write a wikipedia article. Personally I don't see the need for a section on human rights. Mathsci ( talk) 06:53, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
I understand that you feel like Wikipedia bosses and sheriffs of an article. Good luck with that. Wikipedia is supposed to be a free Encyclopedia, by the way. -- Rejedef ( talk) 12:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Which I did and for a reason it is all wrong. If you are unhappy with its form, please change it so it is acceptable for the article 'management' -- Rejedef ( talk) 12:30, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
"Today, large populations of European descent are found on every continent, specially in what is known as the " New World". European ancestry predominates in the Americas, predominantly North America, but also to a lesser degree in the West Indies and South and Central Americas (particularly in Puerto Rico, Cuba, Costa Rica, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil — Western in culture, and its mostly multiracial population primarily of European descent, mainly in Centro-Sul but distributed along the entire country —, and all Latin American countries have a considerable population of European origins), with a majority or plurality scenery for " white people" but also a much greater percent including all European descendants, such as mulattoes, mestizos, pardos, métis, etc. Also, Australia and New Zealand are examples of Oceanian countries which have mostly European-derived populations.
Africa has no white-majority country, but there are significant minorities (and creole ethnicity is dominant in Cape Verde). In Asia, European-derived populations predominate in much of Northern and Central Asia (European ethnic groups present in Russian Empire or Soviet Union such as Russians, Ukrainians, Volga Germans and Ashkenazi Jews), specifically parts of Siberia and Kazakhstan. Additionally, transcontinental or geographically Asian countries such as Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Cyprus and Turkey have populations historically closely related to Europeans, with considerable genetic and cultural affinity."
Lguipontes, please stop making unsourced changes to this article. Again all sorts of ethnic groups are being mentioned without any justification; and "white" is being used as a synonym for "European". This is an article on Europe not ethnic groups of Europe or white people. Please stop changing the article in this non-neutral and unsourced way. This article is not a blog and any changes shoud be carefully sourced. In addition marking edits as "minor", when whole paragraphs have been rewritten, is not helpful. Please produce reliable secondary sources for any changes you are proposing. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 03:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
On recent edits: The interbreeding of H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis is relevant to the discussion of "displacement of Neandertals by Cro-Magnons"; the evidence for interbreeding between "modern" and "archaic" human populations is based on the most current research, including full sequencing of the Neandertal genome and comparison to the H. sapiens genome. Citing research based on this data which has only recently become available (as the complete Neanderal genome was not sequenced until relatively recently) doesn't fall under WP:UNDUE; this isn't a "minority view". (See here, also here, also here, also here). Spider Jerusalem ( talk) 12:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
europe had a interesting history and in his history the ancient romans are rule very longly but in time of sharlman frenk he was an wonderful king he won france,germany,holand,switzerland,spain,and many states he won. but when he come to kingdom the roman time had a very problems but he tried to fixed them. for easy corporation of economical,politcal sides he distribute the whole kingdom to his knights and his knights get the parts of kingdom but after sharlman europe does not have any powerful king that's why the european knights get powerful and now the king have not controled on the knights and the knights have there independente sides but at 12th and 13th century the business grown up and business want a poweful and stable government that secure them and that's why the businessman are support the king and king are gain up with the bang and now the knight are going very powerless and at war of paths the king get whole power and now knights are going down and down.- sompura sagar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.97.249.177 ( talk) 14:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
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I have removed any such statements and adopted a neutral tone. It is not wikipedia's prerogative to determine which country belongs mostly where. The consensus on transcontinental country articles is that they are Eurasian, therefore can belong to either continent. This ambiguity is necessary to maintain neutrality and avoid constant challenges to claims of someone belonging "mostly" in Europe or Asia.-- Andriabenia ( talk) 11:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Mathsci, a single work cannot possibly carry so much weight. The views expressed in the book are those of the author and it is not a standard for anything. The consensus where Europe ends does not exists and it will not come into existence just because you and user:chipmunkdavis do not want to see poor peripheral countries like Georgia on this cherished article of yours. Including them as an expression of your mercy - i.e. " they're not really Europe but since they so insist we'll throw them in" - is not something I am willing to put up with. I am not here to make wikipedia decide that they are either European or Asian. I am only against the use of word "mostly."-- Andriabenia ( talk) 15:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
You have just tag bombed the footnotes in the article. On the other hand it's fairly easy to find discussions about boundaries in the Caucasus. The book "The Caucasus: An Introduction" by Frederik Coene, published by Routledge, makes it clear that the issue is completely ambiguous. On page 5, Coene states, "The question of whether the Caucasus belongs to Europe or to Asia has been and still is the subject of many intense discussions." He then gives five differing descriptions / interpretations of the borders:
These ambiguities can be spelt out in an article on the Caucasus, but that detail is unnecessary in this general article. The border that you described, according to this source, is only one of five possibilities and is not the most widely accepted one. Mathsci ( talk) 00:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
This seems to be deteriorating into an edit war. The procedure outlined in BRD is that the editor makes a change (Andriabenia), another reverts it, the page stays reverted (without the proposed changes) until the discussion can form a WP:CONSENSUS Hopefully discussion can form a consensus acceptable to both parties, at which point any agreed changes can be made. If this is against some already agreed consensus, apologies, but after briefly reading the above remarks and seeing the edit histories, it seems that the bold changing editor is unwilling to accept that there is not consensus for their addition. Chaosdruid ( talk) 00:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
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"Where Is Europe?" by Frank Jacobs, New York Times, January 9, 2012... AnonMoos ( talk) 04:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The fact that Europe and Asia are not really separate continents should be recognized at the beginning of the article. Yes, by convention! That is sort of like saying the two are "honorary continents." Or maybe this should be compared with "the emperor's new clothes"? This is all so elementary. The convention has to be referred to, but we should make clear that it is not true, as is of course clear to the beginner who reads more of the article. In his Study of History, Toynbee analyzes this false division. To the early Greeks, the two seemed to resemble separate continents because they were divided by the Straits, the Black Sea, and the Aegean--but not further north. Actually, "Asia" originally referred only to Anatolia.I would have to check exact references and may not get to this task soon. Someone else is welcome to do so. Eleanor1944 ( talk) 05:16, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I think this section should be rewritten. Spain, for instance, didn't need to recover from World War II, as the article seems to imply, because it didn't participate in the conflict and wasn't in a state of ruin because of it. Also, it seems unbalanced to mention Franco, as none of the leaders of the other countries are mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.29.182.219 ( talk) 15:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
France metropolitan aera is not accurate. Check France. 109.15.46.23 ( talk) 06:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
My name is Basit and i am boy of 16years old i am here for knowledge i will like to contact you here mail me on basitalhassan16@yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.251.172.134 ( talk) 14:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
How does this unsourced verbosity help (in reference to the Arctic, and not also the Atlantic), while detailing this below in the appropriate section is reverted as unsourced? As even a basic map will reveal [7], this is rather incomprehensible, even idiotic. A fuller explanation is required. Ubiquinoid ( talk) 07:33, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
An editor added unsourced content that appeared to be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Per WP:BRD, I reverted that addition. If proper sources can be found concerning the continent of Europe, then content could be added. I personally doubt that any textbook or encyclopedia uses the terminology LGBT and my feeling is the article should not either. (Incidentally the spelling in the article is "British English": please see the template at the top of the page.) Mathsci ( talk) 09:04, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
(outdent) I have to agree with Mathsci, particularly on undue emphasis. Same-sex marriage is essentially a civil/human rights issue and that is not a topic which is extensively discussed in the article. Referring to same-sex marriage but not female genital mutilation, human trafficking or religious persecution is as good example of wp:undue as you'll probably get. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 17:57, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
First of all this source it's new and not as you claimed :) secondly just because you think different it's not mean that this is "non-neutral", the source was: "The Crisis of Western Education" by Christopher Dawson, so i can understant that this "book" is "non-neutral"!!!. Jobas ( talk) 22:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
ok thank for respond, but in my previous amendment i mementioned also the Ancient Greece and Roman Empire, along with Christianity they were an important elements for western culture, and the role of Christianity in western civilization has been has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society, any way i understand your point since there will be a subject of dispute. Jobas ( talk) 23:23, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
In the begining of the article when it says Europe is the "second-smallest" continent it links to the "List of continents by population" page which has no information on area whatsoever(not even a map or population density). I think this link shoud be changed to a link to the "Continent" page (or a section of it) because that page has extensive information on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.255.133 ( talk) 01:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
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there is a gallery after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#20th_century_to_present. It should be changed and include also ancient times, not only started with med-ieval, just because even typical Americans connects Europe with for e.g. Romans. The map File:Roman_expansion_264_BC_Shepherd.jpg show good example of tribes living in ancient times(if You can just remove the "little maps" covering the cities.
E.g. change: add to gallery section
From 2003 and not very neat. Please someone replace it with a newer and better map. Thanks. -- E4024 ( talk) 21:08, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
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1) Note mark in table: [s] at Nagorno-Karabakh should be [r] 2) Note mark in table: [r] at Abkhazia and South Ossetia should be [q], perhaps also [m] 3) in remark C: "... However only the population figure includes the entire state" - it seems, that the area figure also (it's bigger than total for Europe, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia); expression "However only" strange in the place where precise figures only for European part should be the desired status. 4) remark J for Kazakhstan: the same situations as in 3) 5) remark N for Turkey: the same situations as in 3) 6) remark M for Georgia: clear statement that the area and population figures are for the entire territory (not only European part) would be useful 7) "orphaned" remarks A and S. 149.156.20.39 ( talk) 08:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
This genetic map, can be useful to look into the deep ancestry of the Europeans. Maybe it could be of use:
http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 03:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Please do not with add unsourced content to the "History" section. An editor has expanded the content related to the Golden Horde without new sources and with far more detail than is appropriate for what is just a summary of the history of Europe. The final paragraph added about Siberia and Alaska concerned the history of Asia and not that of Europe. The history section is quite carefully sourced. To add new material please ensure that it directly concerns the history of Europe, is properly sourced and is concise and in summary form. Mathsci ( talk) 07:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Regarding this revert, the reason I added the category is because Europe is a Peninsula, and clearly Europe is in Europe. Emmette Hernandez Coleman ( talk) 17:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Last sentence under the heading "Early Middle Ages":
"Fatally weakened by the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantines fell in 1453 when they were conquered by the Ottoman Empire." I find there two problems with this sentence:
1. While Constantinople fell in 1453, other Byzantine cities only fell later, i.e. Trebizond in 1461. It certainly does make sense to associate the fall of the "Byzantine Empire" with the fall of its capital, itself one of the last strongholds to fall to the Ottomans. Please note, that even this is not objective fact, only interpretation, albeit a sensible and widely agreed upon one. But if you are using the fuzzy term "Byzantines", which I interpret along the lines of "Territory, Cities or Population with Byzantine allegiance", then this is not true anymore. Some "Byzantines" still survived a bit longer, even if their empire had already fallen.
2. It is a very bold assertion to make a monocausal connection between the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, i.e. in 1204, and the final collapse of the empire more than two centuries later! While it was certainly not a very good day for the empire when their capital was captured and their territories divided, only to be restored some 50 years later at a smaller scale, nobody in this world is able to make this bold assertion and support it with scientific evidence. Weakened? Yes, absolutely. Fatally weakened? In other words: irreversibly and exclusively by this event weakened? Who can say!?
Therefore my suggestion to change the sentence above into: "Weakened by the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantine Empire fell with the conquest of Constantinople by the Ottoman Empire in 1453."
Thank you for your time! 79.249.113.191 ( talk) 17:05, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
I noticed that under Eastern Europe and the cold war that it wasn't really mentioned that many countries in eastern Europe not only where affiliated with the USSR but where communist until the revolutions of 1989 when Mikhail Gorbachev said that counties in the Soviet Union no longer had to remain in it's ranks. I believe this is a vital point in European history whether you view it as good or bad. I only point this out to make this article better thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hward4116SS ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
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Please edit [2] since it is not supported by the (dead) link. Instead, the link's source, Princeton's Wordnet, now states [3], see http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=europe&sub=Search+WordNet&o2=&o0=1&o8=1&o1=1&o7=&o5=&o9=&o6=&o3=&o4=&h= So, please use the source's content, or delete the sentence altogether. 79.220.24.16 ( talk) 18:50, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
The recent change in format, which I reverted, was unhelpful. The definition of Europe is a historical matter according to the sources and has very little to do with the etymology. The mixing up of the principal clickable map detailing transcontinental countries rendered the start of the article unreadable. The separation into "definition" and "etymology" seems fine and there seems to be no reason to change it. Mathsci ( talk) 07:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
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Are the Greek Islands in the Aegean just off the coast of turkey considered Europe or Asia because if they're considered asia then Greece is partly in Asia-- J intela ( talk) 07:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
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Hi! The main table in the "Political geography" section is not sortable. Can that be fixed? Thank you. 12.139.227.194 ( talk) 21:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
After looking at the third table in "Political Geography", I wondered why Republika Srpska was included in the list of "several dependencies and similar territories with broad autonomy". It seems like the following sentence, "Note that the list does not include the constituent countries of the United Kingdom, federal states of Germany and Austria, and autonomous territories of Spain and the post-Soviet republics as well as the republic of Serbia" could also include, or opt to not include, the political entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Why have it in there and not the other entity, and not the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina? On the other hand, all the other dependencies are not attached geographically to the nations of which they are dependent.
I guess what I'm saying is that the Republika Srpska seems to be one of two parts of a federation, rather than a territory with broad autonomy. The table should include either both parts, or neither of them. Paploo ( talk) 01:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
As a humble reader not well versed in geography, might I ask why it is that the one is included but not the other? No obvious explanation jumped out at me from looking at the two articles. Is there a reason, or is this purely an omission, implying that the other should be included as well? Sławomir Biały ( talk) 02:15, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
It can be done either way. Either both there or both absent. The list of sovereign states by comparison has a very clear format. An alternative to the current version is to remove the two entries in the third table, but add an explanatory footnote for Bosnia-Herzegovina, mentioning the three constituent parts: the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Republika Srpska; and the smaller administrative unit Brčko District (i.e. the same format as the list article). I agree that in retrospect the appearance of the constituent parts looks odd in the third table, because everything apart from the two constituent parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina is some form of smallish island or peninsula. So putting that information in a footnote in the first table and not listing the constituent parts in the third table looks optimal.
I also looked back to see how the third table was created. In December 2010, there were only two tables, with neither constituent part mentioned. The second and third tables were created on 3 May 2011 by Chipmunkdavis. [8] The entry for Republika Srpska was added [9] on 30 September 2011 by an editor fairly obviously from there. [10]. Looking back over edits in 2011, Chipmnkdavis, it is frightening to see the proportion of edits from now banned editors like Polgraf, Comtesse de Mingrele, Rejedef, etc.
So an optimal solution seems to be to remove the two entries from the third table and add a new footnote R for the entry Bosnia-Herzegovina in the first table. That should keep everybody happy. Mathsci ( talk) 23:14, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Nowadays, we're tending to use bigger images than the thumbnail—where they're detail-rich—if they can fit reasonably against the vertical run of the text. I've been bold and put the big clickable map at the top, not the bottom, of the "Definition" section (which alone is better in a large range of window-widths, I think) and enlarged the tiny displays of three very intricate maps in the same section.
Revert if you wish, but is there in feedback on this?
I'd also like to go through making quite a few more images a little larger, and shifting lefts to rights where it seems to work. May I do that? Tony (talk) 09:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't see what is intrusive about a 240px image vs a 220px image. The more important problem is that some of the images are tiny given their rich detail—that makes them purely decorative, not informative. Those with slow connections can wait considerable time to access the larger original page for an image, and those with smaller screens can have difficulty in seeing original images, which are sometimes huge? The image here, squashed down to 160px, is dysfunctional, although it might be pretty in a postage-stamp sense. What on earth the subject is can't even be squinted at, and the caption has three words per line, which is very ungainly. If there's a problem fitting pics in at functional size, there are too many pics. Tony (talk) 02:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Would be good to set this image to the language section. Vrkach ( talk) 07:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
In "Etymology", it says that "Europe" once meant "the sphere of influence of the Western Church" (specifically excluding Russia), with the expanded definition only developing in the 19th century. But in "Definition", it says that the problem of defining Europe was finally resolved in 1730 (i.e. early 18th century). Iapetus ( talk) 15:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Are we sure Europe is considered a peninsula? The only reference cited in this regard in the article that possibly suggests this is No. 19, the MSN Encarta article on Europe, and the only time it does this is when it says "the peninsular nature of Europe ...". Not only is that not the same as actually calling it a peninsula, is Encarta really that credible?
I've looked myself, but I haven't found any credible source as of yet that calls Europe a penisula. As such, unless someone can, I suggest removing any references to Europe being a peninsula from the article-- The Talking Toaster ( talk) 22:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't class it as a peninsula; as the above states, if you start calling Europe a peninsula you'll never end. Africa is "technically" a peninsula and so is South America. We should be calling it a continent.
The definitions are "A piece of land that projects into a body of water and is connected with the mainland by an isthmus." or "a narrow strip of land projecting into a sea or lake from the mainland". Europe is the mainland from which peninsula's project, so shouldn't be refereed as a peninsula. It should be referred to as a continent: "one of the principal land masses of the earth, usually regarded as including Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, and South America."
--
Rushton2010 (
talk)
14:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd vote for all references to it as a peninsula to be removed.
These all say Europe is a peninsula: [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]. Emmette Hernandez Coleman ( talk) 17:37, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Irregardless, Europe as a Continent (which is what this article is about) cannot be a peninsula without excluding The UK, Ireland, Iceland, Malta, Cyprus, etc. etc. etc. (and I think they'd be very surprised to suddenly find they do not belong to a continent because wikipedia says so...) The mainland mass (at a rather large push) could be referred to as a peninsula (the same large push that calls Africa a peninsula)... but to call the entire continent a peninsula is wrong. It is a continent and should be referred to as such. --
Rushton2010 (
talk)
12:32, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
The article states that Neanderthals died out in Europe "probably due to climate change," with a cite after the next sentence that seems to go to the National Geographic Atlas of the World. To me, the climate change language doesn't match up with material in the article on Neanderthals, and there should be a better source for it than a world atlas. Arnold Rothstein1921 ( talk) 16:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Unlike the article in my native language, this article seems to avoid the controversy about the South-Eastern boundary of Europe by simply referring to "the Caucasus". Perhaps that is a wise decision - perhaps clarification is still appropriate. I always thought that de Greater Caucasus is the boundary, but Georgia, Armenia and Azerbeidjan all are members of the council of Europe, and several if not all these countries consider themselves part of Europe. Georgia even claims to be the craddle of Europe! Rbakels ( talk) 18:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
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Please change the link for Ireland in the list of countries. It currently goes to the island. It should go to Republic_of_Ireland Edwininlondon ( talk) 21:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
The 'Basque' Banu Qasi Muslim dynasty??? Basque nationalists have written this article?? First Banu Qasi, was a Zaragozan romanized Visigoth called Casio. Before the visigoths islamized Banu Qasi, Navarre and Basque territory belonged to the Christian kingdom of Galicia (called Kingdom of Asturias Spanish romantic nationalism from the middle of the century) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
83.61.34.230 (
talk)
20:27, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
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In Country list table, "Name(s) in official language(s)" replace "Lietvua" with "Lietuva". 74.95.186.108 ( talk) 18:35, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
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Please correct the following typo: in one of the country tables, the italian name of Switzerland is spelled "Svizerra" instead of the correct "Svizzera" (I only saw one occurrence, so it should be straightforward to find). 134.206.229.163 ( talk) 15:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
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edit latvia's population to 2,008,700 (2013 october) 95.68.109.214 ( talk) 15:58, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Since when kazakhstan and azerbaijan are European? So because they are in Asia i suggest deleting them from this article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.190.130 ( talk) 11:42, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
Actually, all of the European sections need this. The US page says it (apparently 27% of Americans have college degrees) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clguy1234 ( talk • contribs) 00:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The very word Europa [ˈjʊərəpa] is derived from the most ancient language of Europe, Lithuanian language and means the land surrounded by seas. 'Eura-' [ˈjʊəra] (Lith. Jura) in Lithuanian language means 'the sea' and '-pa' [ˈjʊərəp] (Lith. pa) means 'at'...it's the same as with word Prussia which in Lithuanian language means the land at/by Kiev Rus (Pa-Rus, later become Prus and Prussia or Borussia)...the prefix-suffix 'pa-' can be used at the beginning or at the end of the word like '-pa'.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.35.63 ( talk) 22:27, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
The introduction states Both World Wars were ignited in Europe greatly contributing to a decline in European dominance in world affairs by the mid-20th century as the United States and Soviet Union took prominence. My problem with this sentence is that to me it seems to suggest that there's nothing European about the Sovjet Union, when in fact the majority of its population and its capital Moscow, were European. -- Lamadude ( talk) 23:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I am not claiming that I posses any kind of absolute truth regarding this article, the geography or anything else. Its just that a legitimate concern was raised, and I tried to address it. What I also did, however, is that I stated that new suggestions would be necessary and welcome. You did not offer new suggestions, you simply rejected my solution and that's no solution at all.-- Satt 2 ( talk) 06:58, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
This user already created problems with Europe last month. He is now removing a rather neutral and undisputed statement in the lede, already carefully sourced in the history section. This statement is neutral and anodyne. Satt 2 has already been blocked for POV-pushing. If he continues to modify sentences like this in the lede again, he can also expect a block. Mathsci ( talk) 06:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Although I do agree with your rewording, this particular source is not very clear. It says "National Geographic" followed by what seems like a page number. Should we not be more specific? National Geographic what? A magazine? a World Atlas, or what? If its a magazine, stating just a number is misleading. It makes it appear as if it was a page number which is unreasonable since the magazine does not have 500 pages. On the other hand, if you are listing a specific VOLUME, please provide the year and the actual page in the magazine. All the other similar citations must be removed. If I use an old book from 1993 and provided only a volume number, would I expect people to go through the whole book in search of a specific information? Of course not, I would probably be banished from here very promptly.-- Satt 2 ( talk) 07:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep the last ten threads.-- Oneiros ( talk) 21:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Suggest a clear outline, somehow, of the countries to which the various islands, as shown in the map of the Mediterranean, "belong". Further the border of UK (ie including NI) from the Rep.of Ir could be made clear. England, Britain (Great Britain) and the UK are not clear to some. As to whether the Isle of Mann should be noted ...well....no comment!—Preceding unsigned comment added by Osborne ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Spain, the UK and France should all be coloured green, as they are partly outside Europe (French Guiana, Canary Islands, Bermuda, etc).
I'm not allowed to edit this page, apparently, but I'd like to note this part:
The part is where it says "Ancient Greece." Wouldn't it sound better if it were:
Ancient Greece should be replaced by whatever is there current-day, in other words Greece. Ancient Greece is no longer on the map.
EDIT: I'd also like to note that on the map, Greenland is not shaded green. If I'm not mistaken, Greenland is and has been owned by Denmark for years and years. Should it be green?
CaradocTheKing ( talk) 15:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
This article states: 448,569. There are actually over 500,000 inhabitants in Luxembourg http://www.lessentiel.lu/rechercher/story/10205295—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.189.77.46 ( talk) 08:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
In section "20th century to present", "Attack on Pearl Harbour" should be "Attack on Pearl Harbor". Tricericon ( talk) 19:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Disregard, hit enough edits to fix it myself. Tricericon ( talk) 20:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
To whoever reverted my edit, Pearl Harbor is a proper noun and thus should always use the American spelling. I have returned it to the correct version. Tricericon ( talk) 00:57, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.237.101.184 ( talk) 20:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The article claims that the border goes on Caucasus mountains and then in brackets Kuma-Manych Depression. none of this descriptions are among the most acknowledged border definitions. I am editing this mistake with more specific info.
ALSO: the map of Europe leaves out parts of Azerbaijan and Georgia that are Geographically part of Europe. Please, change the map. Thnx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickniko ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi, should all those images be place on the right on the
Biodiversity section, it looks a bit crowded - like they're shacked up.
Thanks
--
George2001hi
(Discussion)
08:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Europe is NOT a continent; it's a peninsula. You all are buying into a ridiculous convention established by Europeans. -- 68.173.110.157 ( talk) 16:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
In Kırdki (Zazaki) language: meaning of "Europe" is "sunset" and "Asia" is "Sunrise" and the "Africa" in front. Euro: today, pa: set, sink. Asia: Seem, seemed. Africa: Averda. Aver: front, averda: in front Zazaki is a first part of Kurdish language and the old language —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.163.76.248 ( talk) 21:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
It would be better with a map showing the borders between the nations. 85.165.198.52 ( talk) 14:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
It's not the 1.8 million years old from Georgia but 2 million years old "Australanthropus Olteniensis" from Romania, discovered by C.S. Nicolaescu-Plopsor. Close, very close with the georgian one. It should also be mentioned. P.S. the above map called "Cultural regions of Europe" is incorrect. The eastern/oriental and southern/meridional Carpathians are not a border for romanians, the triangle of Carpathian Mountains (Transylvania)is in fact the heart of Romania( 89.5% romanians from a population of 21.7 millions). The entire Romania is in south-eastern Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigshotnews ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a major inconsistancy between the total figures given for European population and the country figures. Given that at present Russia is included in Europe and has a land area of 17m kms - it seems unlikely that European total land area is only 10m. Population figures and area figures given in the table are 26,673,064 km2, 836,398,181 people and people/km2=31.35740869 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.204.49 ( talk) 18:25, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
The western eurasiatic languages (european) are based heavly on conceptual consonants (this is the reason for european "runic" alphabets-the sound/the letter unlike the asian ideogramic/logogramic ones influenced by vocalic inflections). In the name "Europe" we have 2 groups of consonants: R(L) and P(B, F, V, W). The consonant, "R" has the Repetiton role, being used in european languages to describe the Sun, characteristics of it (such as Repetition or bRoad aReas beneath the Sun). For example, my romanian word "rau" means "river"(repetition, flowing of water from an initial point to another), while the words "lac" and "loc" means "lake" and "place"(it shows the bLocking). The second consonant, "P" (sometimes replaced by consonantic group "C,G,K,H") has the role to show something similar in characteristic with water ("aPa" in romanian or "aQua" in latin means "water"), such as an eye, because an eye is made from water, it is clear/vision like the water. Therefore we have the greek word "oP" meaning "eye" or the romanian "oChi"-same translation. So, literally, "euRoPe" means "glittering eye"-"eyes like the Sun"-who are glittering in the dark, wich is the characteristic trait of a woLF. LuP/LuPo in romanian/latin means "woLF". If you replace "L" with "R" from the same consonantic group, we obtain the word "euRoPe". Also in greek we have the word "LyCo" from wich we have LyCantropy or the romanian "LiCari"(it means "to glitter" similar with "LiQuid", because the water shines/reflects LiGth). In scandinavian myhtology there is a trickster god called LoKi, who is the father of wolfs. In my romanian language, the word "RaPus" means "killed". It's made from 2 words: "Ra"(Sun) and "Pus"(put down), therefore if we take the "R" from "RaPus", we have the word "aPuS", meaning "WeSt/sunset"(the place where the Sun is killed/put down). So there is no surprise that in many languages, the particle "eReB" means "west" or "dark". Europe is the land of the wolfs with glittering eyes where the sun sets down.Bigshotnews 02:24, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
On the map of Europe change Armenia from being out of european borders to into European borders as my father has a very high position in Armenia and I have asked and researched about it and therefore I know that it is in Europe geographically,
Gevorkhagopian (
talk)
18:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
As I can't do that myself without creating an account, here's just the info. The link to "State of Europe's Forests 2007: The MCPFE report on sustainable forest management in Europe" should be changed to http://www.foresteurope.org/filestore/foresteurope/Publications/pdf/state_of_europes_forests_2007.pdf
212.79.161.210 ( talk) 09:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Is there some special reason why the Benelux is not included in the definition? I think it is traditionally considered as such, so if it is excluded, at least a reason should be given. 88.159.66.26 ( talk) 23:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Proposition: There should be a section enumerating and describing the names and purposes of ALL the various organizations which are accessible for countries (ie. the Member States) in Europe, such as the EU, EFTA, NATO, CERN, WEU, OSCE, Council of Europe, WTO, G8, G20, ITU, UN, etc, etc. From the standpoint of this article: "Europe" (not the "European Union"), the focus in such a section should lie explicitly on the several European States to clarify and compare in which organizations each of the various states (for example Britain and France) are a member, this is in contrast to looking at the various organizations (for example NATO) in order to see all countries who make up the Member States of that particular organization, or to looking at each country alone to see which organizations that particular country belongs to. It is important to have a comprehensive comparison chart of all the organizations (and their purposes) affecting the countries on the European map since each of all these organizations in the end refer to the same Member State, and ultimately, to the same taxpayer. Such comparison of the European States, and the organizations they constitute, should be clearly expressed in a table enumerating all the European countries on the leftmost column and the membership of all the organizations in the subsequent cells to the right of each country, but also be visualized in a single map with different colors depending on which (and how many) organizations each country is a member, with the EU/NATO map as a template ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_and_NATO.svg). Alternatively, such a section could be an article in its own right: the "European States" which would then link to both "Europe" as well as all the organizations, such as the "European Union", "NATO", etc. 83.177.143.118 ( talk) 02:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I dont think this article should be on wikipedia. Europe is not a continent and is part of Asia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.74.90.229 ( talk) 09:22, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion. However, what matters is that the vast majority of the world population that understands both the geography of Europe and the concept of continents considers Europe to be a continent. Thus, it is reasonable for this Wikipedia article to declare Europe to be a continent. 68.3.203.92 ( talk) 21:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
These have been discussed extensively in the talk archives and a consensus has long been achieved. Very occasionally and periodically this can lead to disputes on the status of Russia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia, etc. Transcontinental country has a natural ambiguity associated with it which cannot be resolved on wikipedia, where a completely neutral position is taken. The main map, its colouring, caption and footnotes reflect that neutral position. Mathsci ( talk) 00:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
I suggest chaging the first pronunciation to: /jʊərəp/
This way both the primary British pronunciation jʊərəp and the secondary American pronunciation jʊrəp (which can be used instead of jurəp) are represented, instead of just the former.
-- TheAmericanizator ( talk) 15:31, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.244.194.164 ( talk) 14:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
Europe is not a Continent
41.160.19.147 ( talk) 11:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
{{ edit semi-protected}} Regarding WWI and II, the article is written in a very one-sided view, from a western perspective, as the majority of english language pages are. Just to see if this will work:
- Russia did not suffer a defeat in the WWI - due to internal discontent, the country decided to withdraw from the conflict and negotiate a piece agreement with Germany. Compare that with the true defeat of Germany in WWI/II or Japan in II - very different stories;
- Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed after numerous months of failed negotiations between USSR and UK/France - this is not mentioned as per usual;
- To complete a full picture, next to 27 million perished Soviets, I would mention 0.9 million UK and US victims combined.
218.186.9.232 ( talk) 18:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
- Regarding the Pact:
Negotiations between USSR and France/UK started on 10/04/39, and by August 39 no workable solution had been reached. As a few examples, England objected to a list of guaranteed protected countries, inclusion of the Baltic states and Finland in the list, non-possibility of a separate peace agreement. They ultimately agreed to all points, but valuable time had often been wasted.
In July UK sent Admiral Drax to Moscow - a person who did not have any powers to decide upon important issues nor commanded any respect from the Soviets. Furthermore, UK took the longest route possible, by sea, to deliberately delay and sabotage a possible positive outcome. (Source - Great Soviet Encyclopedia (GSE) "Second World War" and ru.wikipedia.org on Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).
Importantly, it was known that whilst talking to the Soviets, London (Chamberlain through Wilson) was also secretly talking to the Nazis about possible non-objection to the latter's "interests" in the Eastern and South-Eastern Europe in exchange for non-aggression. Brits were also prepared to allow Germans to exploit their colonial African possessions. (Source - GSE)
This clearly showed Stalin West was playing a double game and could not be trusted.
Following the despicable appeasement of Hitler in the case with Sudetenland, even in March Stalin was furious at 18th VKP(b) summit: "some countries, fore-mostly Britain and France, refused to collectively provide a defence against the aggressor" and was disinclined to get involved with countries that used others only for their own benefit. Hence USSR was between the rock and hard place - they chose Germany.
In summary, the statement "the Germans turned to the Soviets, and signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact..." should be complimented "...after difficult negotiations efforts between the three powers of USSR, France and Britain could not proceed due to the political unwillingness and contrasting priorities of all parties." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.9.232 ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 23 November 2010 (UTC) 218.186.9.253 ( talk) 05:42, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Dear Moderator/s, Re: the above Pact, I note neither my suggestion has been implemented, nor at least any acknowledgement issued in the last 2 weeks. Does this mean you only allow information that represents a biased Western view? So much for freedom of speech and any sense of honest discussion... 218.186.9.253 ( talk) 14:12, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Isn't it what I did two weeks ago - please see above. To reiterate, the statement "...the Germans turned to the Soviets, and signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact..." should be complimented "...after difficult negotiations efforts between the three powers of USSR, France and Britain could not proceed (collapsed) due to the political unwillingness and contrasting priorities of all parties." This is to provide a fuller picture and dispel an underlying misrepresentation that the Soviets colluded with Hitler out of their own will - it was simply a political inevitability after UK and France showed their cynicism and indecisiveness.
218.186.9.253 ( talk) 19:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
It's true, "political unwillingness" is but an expression, perhaps just my opinion. Factually, it would have been truer to write of the collapse in negotiations due to secret negotiations of Western powers behind Stalin's back whilst smiling to his face...didn't want to ruffle feathers too much. Of course, "...Germany annexed the Sudetenland. This move was HIGHLY contested by the other powers" sounds very factual and accurate. Don't publish the truth...No wonder some choose to re-write the history and/or exclusively present it in a self-suited way...They have good educators... 218.186.9.253 ( talk) 20:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
This comes down to one question. Can you verify your opinion to be true. No sources no change. We can't risk any original research. Defianetly on something like this. − Jhenderson 777 20:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC) As per Wikipedia rules, pure facts, indisputable and verifiable: Please add to the statement "...the Germans turned to the Soviets, and signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact..." the following: "...after 4 months of discussions between the three powers of USSR, France and Britain on dealing with Nazi Germany in Europe, had not proven to be successful." (Sources - Great Soviet Encyclopedia and ru.wikipedia.org). This would remove any implied half-truths and at least make two versions of wiki (ru and en) comparable. 218.186.9.253 ( talk) 06:13, 12 December 2010 (UTC) Well, this is why in Nov last year I started by saying "just to see if this will work"...as the selectiveness of resources by Western researchers and skewed mis/presentation of debatable events is evident at every step. Even at this "local" level, you, so-called moderators, have tried every trick in the book - referred to 'no sources' when the presented evidence was abundantly clear, didn't introduce a comment that states an indisputable fact, simply ignored my messages for weeks and now resorted to blocking my IP without any reason...Commendable, "unbiased truth" distributors! Keep contributing to the cynicism in the world... Victorzim ( talk) 15:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, duh. It's widely known that Wikipedia is a power trip for moderators, administrators and so called "veteran users". When they disagree with something, they just reject it. Classic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.121.37.146 ( talk) 22:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
The sentences 'During the Cold War, Europe was divided along the Iron Curtain between NATO in the west and the Warsaw Pact in the east' (lead) and 'After World War II the map of Europe was redrawn at the Yalta Conference and divided into two blocs, the Western countries and the communist Eastern bloc, separated by what was later called by Winston Churchill an "iron curtain"' imply a complete partition. They do not account for the neutral countries. 212.183.140.19 ( talk) 15:42, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
I was thinking of adding information on Warsaw Confederation from January 28, 1573, as it was in fact the first document providing the citizens total religious freedom. The document was included by UNESCO in Memory of the World Programme (also called World Documentary Heritage). I believe that such important event should be mentioned in the article about Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.14.6 ( talk) 09:14, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
And, of course, Constitution of May 3, signed in 1791, as the first modern European Constitution should be included as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.14.6 ( talk) 09:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
I would like to add something on this article, actually remove a mistake... Northern Cyprus is not a country, no other nation in the world (excluding Turkey) recognizes Northern Cyprus as a country, so this mistake shouldn't even exist in Wikipedia. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.110.254.217 ( talk) 18:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
The image bloat is horrible. In the section Definition there are three images side by side, at left "the Historical Europe-Asia boundaries", in the middle the "Clickable map of Europe" and at right "Europa regina map". I think the half number of the current images are justified, the rest can go.
Rursus dixit. (
mbork3!)
15:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Disruption to article by sockpuppet of indefinitely banned user
User:Satt 2
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When maps have been in the article for a long time and where a consensus has been painstakingly developed, one editor should not unilaterally blank them, That was true in particular of the prinicpal clickable map, which is the result of many days of discussion over several years. Mathsci ( talk) 05:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
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As it stands, there is a pointless overlap between the two. I suggest redefining the geography section to simply Geography, and move all extent information up to the definition section. Chipmunkdavis ( talk) 07:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
First of all, Europe specifically excludes the United States.
Also, Europe is primarily secular. Hare Krishna, Christianity and Scientology are a Johnny come lately fad in Europe. There are religions that are more European and have therefore been around much longer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.40.45.183 ( talk) 21:28, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
A new table was added by ClungeLover69 ( talk · contribs) to the Political geography section. Since it seemed to be largely unsourced WP:OR, I reverted it to allow for discussion here per WP:BRD. I didn't look at each entry in detail; however, I could see no particular reason for including Bavaria, Brittany or for placing a French flag next to Catalonia. The table seemed to be potentially contentious. Its inclusion would just create instability because of the lack of sources and the arbitrariness of the entries. Mathsci ( talk) 17:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
The land use map seems completely wrong. According to this map, there is almost no forest in mainland Europe while Scandinavia is almost 100% forested. The description of the meaning of colours is incoplete. Markoeltermann ( talk) 18:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Greenland is in Europe. It stands tall against cocacolonization and will never surrender to the United States occupying forces. It stands alongside Denmark and others as a European country. It is the diamond on Europe's crown. United States Zero. It is official. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.167.68.107 ( talk) 17:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Greenland is a danish oversees territory and it is a part of the North American continent. Grennland is not a European terrotiry as Reunion is not a Europena territory, it belongs to France but it lies in Africa. Turkey is an Asian COuntry wich lies only in a small part in Europe, which doesn't make Turkey a European country, Turkey must be deleted from any European list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 04:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with: Russia; Georgia; Turkey; Kazakhstan; Azerbaijan. But what about France and Spain? Brownturkey ( talk) 19:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Border between Europe and Asia lies acros the Bosforo Strait. So Turkey is partially in Europe, which means Turkey is not a European Country, only the marginal area of that country must be considered European, reporting over 70000000 of people as european is complitely fake. Turkey must be deleted from any european list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 04:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
TURKEY IS NOT A EUROPEAN COUNTRY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east EUROPE IS NOT MIDDLE EAST. TURKEY MUST DELETED FROM THE ARTICLE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.105.115 ( talk) 15:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Sub tropical, your name just show your knoledge and concern to Europe: Part of France lies in Africa, South America, Asia, Oceania well France is a South American, Asian, African, Oceanian country an not a European country if Turkey is European. Reunion lies in Africa, French Guayana lies in South America, New Caledonia lies in Oceania. SO FRANCE IS NOT EUROPEAN COUNTRY AS TURKEY IS EUROPEAN!!!!THIS IS JUST RIDICULOUS, ISN'T IT? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 03:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Population of European Turkey: 71,517,100, Area :783,562 km²?????????????? Turkey is not Europe. EUROPE IS NOT TURKEY. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THEY HANDLED BRAINS?WERE AT THE TOILET?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population this article in Wikipedia shows that European Turkish population is just about 10000000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 04:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Turkey>Turkey is NOT Europe, only that small part lies in Europe which doesn't make the whole Turkey part of Europe thus it must be deleted from any european list as you can't find France in any African list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.251.8 ( talk) 04:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Why is Newgrange, built 3,100 BC, not listed in this section? Is it not a great monument like Stonehenge or Megalithic Temple of Malta?-- Ire2500 ( talk) 07:16, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
The culture section is painfully amateurish. I understand and agree with wanting to express the extraordinary impact European culture has had on the rest of the world but talking about Christianity stabilised it? Try built more than half of it and protected and guided it through the enlightenment when 99% of Europeans were still extremely Christian, as in went to church more in a month than most of us do in a lifetime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.27.225 ( talk) 02:31, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
I am aware that it is very much disputed which countries are included in Europe. But I do think that for the sake of consistency the map shown at the very beginning of this article should conform with the information provided in the text. So either the map should be changed or Chechnya should be included in the list of European countries. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 23:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
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In the religion section, please removed the (east) from Germany (east). Germany is not divided anymore.
118.93.209.184 ( talk) 07:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Why does the map in the infobox have no borders? I find that very weird. Is there a reason for that? Jørgen88 ( talk) 16:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
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Turkey is not Europe and any references must be deleted from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.33.251.173 ( talk) 20:12, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Still no answer on why it is not listed, someone simply deleted my comment -- Ire2500 ( talk) 13:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Reading the article I found much incorrect information.
Some of sentences use vague term Western and Eastern Europe which we used during the cold war and now have as many definitions as many there are scholars. This goes to a ridiculous idea that a wolf is primarily found in Eastern Europe and in the Balkans, with a handful of packs in pockets of Western Europe (Scandinavia, Spain, etc.).extenthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Present_distribution_of_wolf_subspecies_eur.jpg. This can be changed with short 'Northern Europe and mountainous regions of the continent' which reflects it better. Even more hilarious is the European bison part: 'Once roaming the great temperate forests of Eurasia, European bison now live in nature preserves in Poland, Russia, and other parts of Eastern Europe]]' -> in fact it does in these areas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_bonasus_distribution.svg. This means that the information was clearly incorrect because these reserves are very limited in terms of size and they are on the border of Poland and Belarus, and Poland and the Ukraine, regions tending to be called Central rather than Eastern Europe after the Cold War not to mention unspecified 'Eastern Europe'. Consequently I decided to correct it.
Keeping in mind size of Europe, I thought it will be wiser to specify information so instead of using 'Central, Eastern, North-Western etc. I changed it into specific places in order to avoid confusion and disappointment. So instead of saying Western Europe, whatever that term covers, I specified countries by name to make it much clearer, comprehensible and visible. -- Rejedef ( talk) 15:37, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Dear Mathsci - they are confusing terms because they have different meanings. You can see Western Europe as a bunch of non-communist countries... 22 years ago. CIA would say that Western Europe are France, the UK and the Low Countries. This is the confusion I make. And, after all, Europe is too small to separate it into regions. On the other hand, European nations tend to find differences rather than similarities between them. Instead of saying about regions, some of them are great, why not to specify, where possible, to make clear which country rather than telling that European Bison can be found in a region of Europe rather than mentioning that there are only 2 very tiny reserves in countries which we call nowadays Central (alternatively Central and Eastern Europe)? That was my motive to pursue changes. -- Rejedef ( talk) 23:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I did explain my position and, it is not a personal view. It is just an observer view, as I live in Europe and I see how terms are being used in media, books, politics and in scholarly papers. To prove my point I searched for tens of links -- Rejedef ( talk) 23:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, I did not make these sources. I'm not an owner of BBC or a boss of the European Union. Please check links below to see how the European perspective may very from an American perspective. By Europe is too small to divide I mean the President of the Europe, Jerzy Buzek's views. The fall of communism is significant because it challenged the East-West divide. New sub-divisions emerged and many old ones were revived. This is why it is relevant. It also enabled the European Union, the most important international organisation in Europe, to grow. Alss, European Bison is not an animal from prehistory as it is not extinct. Wee can agree in disagree that there was a sub-divvision of Europe suggested by the United nations but it isschallenged in Europe itself. I gave you resources to check it, if you don't trust me or you believe that you are right. -- Rejedef ( talk) 23:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I was quite happy with this edit by Rejedef ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [3]. Without any explanation, Rejedef very recently decided to revert his own edit. As I have written before, if Rejedef has decided that "Eastern Europe" or "Western Europe", etc, are not valid terms in sources, he will probably be topic-banned from a large range of articles on wikipedia under WP:AE. Mathsci ( talk) 22:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
? I revised the article changing its vaguely defined terms which are used in a different way or omitted. Instead, I gave more specific information. I also quoted tens of resources: academic, political and medial. If you see any error in my edits, please change parts you do not like. Please, do not revert everything. Also, please prove why you think my edits are wrong. -- Rejedef ( talk) 02:41, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
European Subdivision is a very vague topic: Eastern, Western, Central Europe change meanings quite relatively. This has to deal with many reasons. At the end these divisions are vague. Between the 1945-1990 it was relatively easy, still Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and Malta were confusing but we had Western and Eastern Europe for some time. Nowadays subdivisions very that much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe (at least 5 similar definitions); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe (again, at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Europe (at least 2 definitions) As you see, all of them are context dependent. It doesn't help that there are also old subdivisions (which we tend to bring back to life as they reflect the continent's complexity more): http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs42/f/2009/122/f/7/Europe_Division_by_JJohnson1701.png; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Central_Europe,_814.jpg; http://historyoftheancientworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/17th-century-map-of-Europe.jpg Although this model ( http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grossgliederung_Europas-en.svg) is pursued much in media: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1035212.stm (see Switzerland as a part of Central Europe and compare to other countries); http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2002/aug/26/naturaldisasters.climatechange; and European Institutions: http://www.ceinet.org/; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Initiative and Un institutions: http://www.grid.unep.ch/product/map/index.php Nowadays there are Unitarian tendencies in Europe: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0020-2754.2000.00409.x/abstract As a European I can tell you that geographical adjective has a derogatory meaning, like Eastern Europe, hence it tends to be not used, especially after the Fall of Communism in the continent. In addition to all that we have the Western Civilisation concept: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png As well as religions (yet influential to some extent): http://westciv2.umwblogs.org/files/2010/01/Europe_religion_map_en6-1024x833.png Now I hope you will not delete my revisions. I hope I explained well my position :) As you can see, the Fall of Communism brought not only new opportunities butt also re-discovery to Europeans after 45 years of separation. Of course I understand that outside Europe you use old sub-divisions, even these Cold war ones.
At glance: -there are no clearly defined regions in Europe: all of them may vary a lot; -naming a country helps to avoid misunderstandings and over-interpretation -- Rejedef ( talk) 23:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I do not agree: SOAPBOX is not a case here as it neither of those: -Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment -Opinion pieces -Scandal mongering -Self-promotion -Advertising. -- Rejedef ( talk) 12:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
These are resources for which you asked.
Number 1. European Bison habitat: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1472-4642.2011.00849.x/full http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/2814/0/full http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/2814/0/rangemap
Number 2. Europe new subdivision in use: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LHm1BSGiudAC&pg=PT127&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=europe%20regions%20central%20northern%20europe&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=o48LPwiQkzIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP11&dq=europe+regions&ots=xxgLcz2eEf&sig=zk-5IA-T7ivZVlKgqki53n8zyi4#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1Tk5O1G7tWcC&pg=PA1&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=europe%20regions%20central%20northern%20europe&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_BW0Ehau6oMC&pg=PA36&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x4gbSgAACAAJ&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA http://www.springerlink.com/content/l722418262211497/ http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2011.01730.x/full http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=6301140&jid=RIS&volumeId=20&issueId=01&aid=6301132 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0327.00018/abstract http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168192301002337
Please also see to have an insight into problems with defining regions itself by numberous scholars: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uZBhwij5Y24C&printsec=frontcover&dq=defining+regions+europe&hl=en&ei=vQKwTqnVBYrh8AOcudiuAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0491.00200/abstract http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09595237400185111 http://publius.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/4/141.short http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y-1fwix23zMC&pg=PA5&dq=defining+regions+europe&hl=en&ei=vQKwTqnVBYrh8AOcudiuAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Central%20Europe&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rejedef ( talk • contribs) 14:39, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
1. They are obsolete: Western-Eastern divide goes back to the cold war which finished by 1993. Using them in modern Europe is confusing and even offensive in post-communist countries.
2. Their definitions are very vague and very highly depending on a source: CIA defines European Regions differently than UNESCO (just one continent), the World Bank (one continent+Central Asia), the UN or even the BBC. Not to mention the region of Central Europe defined by the Central European Initiative. (Drake, Miriam A. (2005) Encyclopedia of Library and Information Science, CRC Press)
3. Using names of countries rather than whole region will make the article better in terms of quality because.
4. Using western and eastern terms is neglecting the diversity of great individualism of European countries and their cultural differences putting them into one, rather confusing basket: the UK and Sweden are in Northern Europe but Sweden is an ethnically homogeneous country while the UK is a melting spot; Romania and Bulgaria are in south eastern Europe but Romania speaks a Romance language while Bulgaria speaks a Slavonic language. France and the Netherlands are in Western Europe but France speaks a Romance language and is a Catholic country while the Netherlands is a predominantly protestant and speaking a Germanic language. Latvia and Russia are considered to be eastern European but Latvia speaks a Baltic language and is protestant and Russia speaks many languages, mainly the Slavonic Russian and is Orthodox.
5. Using regional terms we also fall into confusion: without specifying a country we may think that it is really about one region. Usually it is one or two countries declining and others in the region begun increase their power as power in Europe was always very fluid.
6. In his book 'Europe, a Political Profile [2 Volumes]: An American Companion to European Politics' http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=V1uzkNq8xfIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP2&dq=political+subdivision+europe&ots=_Lj0Nu59s6&sig=frYx0LKN03SVlm2SFByVmmFdv9E#v=onepage&q=central%20europe&f=false Hans Slomp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rejedef ( talk • contribs) 04:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia's goal to have a neutral stand. And my edits are neutral because they are specific. If you do not agree, please prove it. Essay like? I would expect to be serious but if you want to have incorrect or misleading information there, please go ahead but do not delete things without discussing them first. I understand adjectives but they are purely alleged, Mathsci. Please prove them. -- Rejedef ( talk) 12:21, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Two editors, Rejedef and Lguipontes, recently made changes which very much skewed the article. The extensive introduction of material on ethnic groups of Europe in one edit by Lguipontes seemed undue; extra material on Portuguese colonization could be added if properly sourced. The new section on human rights seemed quite unbalanced and appeared to be written from a Polish perspective. There is already an article Human rights in Europe, which is anodyne and neutral. If any material is warranted in this article on that topic, it would normally not be expected to diverge significantly from what can be found in the main article (although that article could not be used as a source). Cherrypicking sentences from sources to add WP:UNDUE content is not the way to write a wikipedia article. Personally I don't see the need for a section on human rights. Mathsci ( talk) 06:53, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
I understand that you feel like Wikipedia bosses and sheriffs of an article. Good luck with that. Wikipedia is supposed to be a free Encyclopedia, by the way. -- Rejedef ( talk) 12:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Which I did and for a reason it is all wrong. If you are unhappy with its form, please change it so it is acceptable for the article 'management' -- Rejedef ( talk) 12:30, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
"Today, large populations of European descent are found on every continent, specially in what is known as the " New World". European ancestry predominates in the Americas, predominantly North America, but also to a lesser degree in the West Indies and South and Central Americas (particularly in Puerto Rico, Cuba, Costa Rica, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil — Western in culture, and its mostly multiracial population primarily of European descent, mainly in Centro-Sul but distributed along the entire country —, and all Latin American countries have a considerable population of European origins), with a majority or plurality scenery for " white people" but also a much greater percent including all European descendants, such as mulattoes, mestizos, pardos, métis, etc. Also, Australia and New Zealand are examples of Oceanian countries which have mostly European-derived populations.
Africa has no white-majority country, but there are significant minorities (and creole ethnicity is dominant in Cape Verde). In Asia, European-derived populations predominate in much of Northern and Central Asia (European ethnic groups present in Russian Empire or Soviet Union such as Russians, Ukrainians, Volga Germans and Ashkenazi Jews), specifically parts of Siberia and Kazakhstan. Additionally, transcontinental or geographically Asian countries such as Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Cyprus and Turkey have populations historically closely related to Europeans, with considerable genetic and cultural affinity."
Lguipontes, please stop making unsourced changes to this article. Again all sorts of ethnic groups are being mentioned without any justification; and "white" is being used as a synonym for "European". This is an article on Europe not ethnic groups of Europe or white people. Please stop changing the article in this non-neutral and unsourced way. This article is not a blog and any changes shoud be carefully sourced. In addition marking edits as "minor", when whole paragraphs have been rewritten, is not helpful. Please produce reliable secondary sources for any changes you are proposing. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk) 03:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
On recent edits: The interbreeding of H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis is relevant to the discussion of "displacement of Neandertals by Cro-Magnons"; the evidence for interbreeding between "modern" and "archaic" human populations is based on the most current research, including full sequencing of the Neandertal genome and comparison to the H. sapiens genome. Citing research based on this data which has only recently become available (as the complete Neanderal genome was not sequenced until relatively recently) doesn't fall under WP:UNDUE; this isn't a "minority view". (See here, also here, also here, also here). Spider Jerusalem ( talk) 12:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
europe had a interesting history and in his history the ancient romans are rule very longly but in time of sharlman frenk he was an wonderful king he won france,germany,holand,switzerland,spain,and many states he won. but when he come to kingdom the roman time had a very problems but he tried to fixed them. for easy corporation of economical,politcal sides he distribute the whole kingdom to his knights and his knights get the parts of kingdom but after sharlman europe does not have any powerful king that's why the european knights get powerful and now the king have not controled on the knights and the knights have there independente sides but at 12th and 13th century the business grown up and business want a poweful and stable government that secure them and that's why the businessman are support the king and king are gain up with the bang and now the knight are going very powerless and at war of paths the king get whole power and now knights are going down and down.- sompura sagar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.97.249.177 ( talk) 14:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
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I have removed any such statements and adopted a neutral tone. It is not wikipedia's prerogative to determine which country belongs mostly where. The consensus on transcontinental country articles is that they are Eurasian, therefore can belong to either continent. This ambiguity is necessary to maintain neutrality and avoid constant challenges to claims of someone belonging "mostly" in Europe or Asia.-- Andriabenia ( talk) 11:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Mathsci, a single work cannot possibly carry so much weight. The views expressed in the book are those of the author and it is not a standard for anything. The consensus where Europe ends does not exists and it will not come into existence just because you and user:chipmunkdavis do not want to see poor peripheral countries like Georgia on this cherished article of yours. Including them as an expression of your mercy - i.e. " they're not really Europe but since they so insist we'll throw them in" - is not something I am willing to put up with. I am not here to make wikipedia decide that they are either European or Asian. I am only against the use of word "mostly."-- Andriabenia ( talk) 15:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
You have just tag bombed the footnotes in the article. On the other hand it's fairly easy to find discussions about boundaries in the Caucasus. The book "The Caucasus: An Introduction" by Frederik Coene, published by Routledge, makes it clear that the issue is completely ambiguous. On page 5, Coene states, "The question of whether the Caucasus belongs to Europe or to Asia has been and still is the subject of many intense discussions." He then gives five differing descriptions / interpretations of the borders:
These ambiguities can be spelt out in an article on the Caucasus, but that detail is unnecessary in this general article. The border that you described, according to this source, is only one of five possibilities and is not the most widely accepted one. Mathsci ( talk) 00:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
This seems to be deteriorating into an edit war. The procedure outlined in BRD is that the editor makes a change (Andriabenia), another reverts it, the page stays reverted (without the proposed changes) until the discussion can form a WP:CONSENSUS Hopefully discussion can form a consensus acceptable to both parties, at which point any agreed changes can be made. If this is against some already agreed consensus, apologies, but after briefly reading the above remarks and seeing the edit histories, it seems that the bold changing editor is unwilling to accept that there is not consensus for their addition. Chaosdruid ( talk) 00:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
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"Where Is Europe?" by Frank Jacobs, New York Times, January 9, 2012... AnonMoos ( talk) 04:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The fact that Europe and Asia are not really separate continents should be recognized at the beginning of the article. Yes, by convention! That is sort of like saying the two are "honorary continents." Or maybe this should be compared with "the emperor's new clothes"? This is all so elementary. The convention has to be referred to, but we should make clear that it is not true, as is of course clear to the beginner who reads more of the article. In his Study of History, Toynbee analyzes this false division. To the early Greeks, the two seemed to resemble separate continents because they were divided by the Straits, the Black Sea, and the Aegean--but not further north. Actually, "Asia" originally referred only to Anatolia.I would have to check exact references and may not get to this task soon. Someone else is welcome to do so. Eleanor1944 ( talk) 05:16, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I think this section should be rewritten. Spain, for instance, didn't need to recover from World War II, as the article seems to imply, because it didn't participate in the conflict and wasn't in a state of ruin because of it. Also, it seems unbalanced to mention Franco, as none of the leaders of the other countries are mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.29.182.219 ( talk) 15:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
France metropolitan aera is not accurate. Check France. 109.15.46.23 ( talk) 06:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
My name is Basit and i am boy of 16years old i am here for knowledge i will like to contact you here mail me on basitalhassan16@yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.251.172.134 ( talk) 14:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
How does this unsourced verbosity help (in reference to the Arctic, and not also the Atlantic), while detailing this below in the appropriate section is reverted as unsourced? As even a basic map will reveal [7], this is rather incomprehensible, even idiotic. A fuller explanation is required. Ubiquinoid ( talk) 07:33, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
An editor added unsourced content that appeared to be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Per WP:BRD, I reverted that addition. If proper sources can be found concerning the continent of Europe, then content could be added. I personally doubt that any textbook or encyclopedia uses the terminology LGBT and my feeling is the article should not either. (Incidentally the spelling in the article is "British English": please see the template at the top of the page.) Mathsci ( talk) 09:04, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
(outdent) I have to agree with Mathsci, particularly on undue emphasis. Same-sex marriage is essentially a civil/human rights issue and that is not a topic which is extensively discussed in the article. Referring to same-sex marriage but not female genital mutilation, human trafficking or religious persecution is as good example of wp:undue as you'll probably get. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 17:57, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
First of all this source it's new and not as you claimed :) secondly just because you think different it's not mean that this is "non-neutral", the source was: "The Crisis of Western Education" by Christopher Dawson, so i can understant that this "book" is "non-neutral"!!!. Jobas ( talk) 22:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
ok thank for respond, but in my previous amendment i mementioned also the Ancient Greece and Roman Empire, along with Christianity they were an important elements for western culture, and the role of Christianity in western civilization has been has been intricately intertwined with the history and formation of Western society, any way i understand your point since there will be a subject of dispute. Jobas ( talk) 23:23, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
In the begining of the article when it says Europe is the "second-smallest" continent it links to the "List of continents by population" page which has no information on area whatsoever(not even a map or population density). I think this link shoud be changed to a link to the "Continent" page (or a section of it) because that page has extensive information on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.255.133 ( talk) 01:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
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there is a gallery after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#20th_century_to_present. It should be changed and include also ancient times, not only started with med-ieval, just because even typical Americans connects Europe with for e.g. Romans. The map File:Roman_expansion_264_BC_Shepherd.jpg show good example of tribes living in ancient times(if You can just remove the "little maps" covering the cities.
E.g. change: add to gallery section
From 2003 and not very neat. Please someone replace it with a newer and better map. Thanks. -- E4024 ( talk) 21:08, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
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1) Note mark in table: [s] at Nagorno-Karabakh should be [r] 2) Note mark in table: [r] at Abkhazia and South Ossetia should be [q], perhaps also [m] 3) in remark C: "... However only the population figure includes the entire state" - it seems, that the area figure also (it's bigger than total for Europe, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia); expression "However only" strange in the place where precise figures only for European part should be the desired status. 4) remark J for Kazakhstan: the same situations as in 3) 5) remark N for Turkey: the same situations as in 3) 6) remark M for Georgia: clear statement that the area and population figures are for the entire territory (not only European part) would be useful 7) "orphaned" remarks A and S. 149.156.20.39 ( talk) 08:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
This genetic map, can be useful to look into the deep ancestry of the Europeans. Maybe it could be of use:
http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 03:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Please do not with add unsourced content to the "History" section. An editor has expanded the content related to the Golden Horde without new sources and with far more detail than is appropriate for what is just a summary of the history of Europe. The final paragraph added about Siberia and Alaska concerned the history of Asia and not that of Europe. The history section is quite carefully sourced. To add new material please ensure that it directly concerns the history of Europe, is properly sourced and is concise and in summary form. Mathsci ( talk) 07:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Regarding this revert, the reason I added the category is because Europe is a Peninsula, and clearly Europe is in Europe. Emmette Hernandez Coleman ( talk) 17:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Last sentence under the heading "Early Middle Ages":
"Fatally weakened by the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantines fell in 1453 when they were conquered by the Ottoman Empire." I find there two problems with this sentence:
1. While Constantinople fell in 1453, other Byzantine cities only fell later, i.e. Trebizond in 1461. It certainly does make sense to associate the fall of the "Byzantine Empire" with the fall of its capital, itself one of the last strongholds to fall to the Ottomans. Please note, that even this is not objective fact, only interpretation, albeit a sensible and widely agreed upon one. But if you are using the fuzzy term "Byzantines", which I interpret along the lines of "Territory, Cities or Population with Byzantine allegiance", then this is not true anymore. Some "Byzantines" still survived a bit longer, even if their empire had already fallen.
2. It is a very bold assertion to make a monocausal connection between the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, i.e. in 1204, and the final collapse of the empire more than two centuries later! While it was certainly not a very good day for the empire when their capital was captured and their territories divided, only to be restored some 50 years later at a smaller scale, nobody in this world is able to make this bold assertion and support it with scientific evidence. Weakened? Yes, absolutely. Fatally weakened? In other words: irreversibly and exclusively by this event weakened? Who can say!?
Therefore my suggestion to change the sentence above into: "Weakened by the sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantine Empire fell with the conquest of Constantinople by the Ottoman Empire in 1453."
Thank you for your time! 79.249.113.191 ( talk) 17:05, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
I noticed that under Eastern Europe and the cold war that it wasn't really mentioned that many countries in eastern Europe not only where affiliated with the USSR but where communist until the revolutions of 1989 when Mikhail Gorbachev said that counties in the Soviet Union no longer had to remain in it's ranks. I believe this is a vital point in European history whether you view it as good or bad. I only point this out to make this article better thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hward4116SS ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
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Please edit [2] since it is not supported by the (dead) link. Instead, the link's source, Princeton's Wordnet, now states [3], see http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=europe&sub=Search+WordNet&o2=&o0=1&o8=1&o1=1&o7=&o5=&o9=&o6=&o3=&o4=&h= So, please use the source's content, or delete the sentence altogether. 79.220.24.16 ( talk) 18:50, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
The recent change in format, which I reverted, was unhelpful. The definition of Europe is a historical matter according to the sources and has very little to do with the etymology. The mixing up of the principal clickable map detailing transcontinental countries rendered the start of the article unreadable. The separation into "definition" and "etymology" seems fine and there seems to be no reason to change it. Mathsci ( talk) 07:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
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Are the Greek Islands in the Aegean just off the coast of turkey considered Europe or Asia because if they're considered asia then Greece is partly in Asia-- J intela ( talk) 07:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
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Hi! The main table in the "Political geography" section is not sortable. Can that be fixed? Thank you. 12.139.227.194 ( talk) 21:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
After looking at the third table in "Political Geography", I wondered why Republika Srpska was included in the list of "several dependencies and similar territories with broad autonomy". It seems like the following sentence, "Note that the list does not include the constituent countries of the United Kingdom, federal states of Germany and Austria, and autonomous territories of Spain and the post-Soviet republics as well as the republic of Serbia" could also include, or opt to not include, the political entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Why have it in there and not the other entity, and not the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina? On the other hand, all the other dependencies are not attached geographically to the nations of which they are dependent.
I guess what I'm saying is that the Republika Srpska seems to be one of two parts of a federation, rather than a territory with broad autonomy. The table should include either both parts, or neither of them. Paploo ( talk) 01:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
As a humble reader not well versed in geography, might I ask why it is that the one is included but not the other? No obvious explanation jumped out at me from looking at the two articles. Is there a reason, or is this purely an omission, implying that the other should be included as well? Sławomir Biały ( talk) 02:15, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
It can be done either way. Either both there or both absent. The list of sovereign states by comparison has a very clear format. An alternative to the current version is to remove the two entries in the third table, but add an explanatory footnote for Bosnia-Herzegovina, mentioning the three constituent parts: the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Republika Srpska; and the smaller administrative unit Brčko District (i.e. the same format as the list article). I agree that in retrospect the appearance of the constituent parts looks odd in the third table, because everything apart from the two constituent parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina is some form of smallish island or peninsula. So putting that information in a footnote in the first table and not listing the constituent parts in the third table looks optimal.
I also looked back to see how the third table was created. In December 2010, there were only two tables, with neither constituent part mentioned. The second and third tables were created on 3 May 2011 by Chipmunkdavis. [8] The entry for Republika Srpska was added [9] on 30 September 2011 by an editor fairly obviously from there. [10]. Looking back over edits in 2011, Chipmnkdavis, it is frightening to see the proportion of edits from now banned editors like Polgraf, Comtesse de Mingrele, Rejedef, etc.
So an optimal solution seems to be to remove the two entries from the third table and add a new footnote R for the entry Bosnia-Herzegovina in the first table. That should keep everybody happy. Mathsci ( talk) 23:14, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Nowadays, we're tending to use bigger images than the thumbnail—where they're detail-rich—if they can fit reasonably against the vertical run of the text. I've been bold and put the big clickable map at the top, not the bottom, of the "Definition" section (which alone is better in a large range of window-widths, I think) and enlarged the tiny displays of three very intricate maps in the same section.
Revert if you wish, but is there in feedback on this?
I'd also like to go through making quite a few more images a little larger, and shifting lefts to rights where it seems to work. May I do that? Tony (talk) 09:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't see what is intrusive about a 240px image vs a 220px image. The more important problem is that some of the images are tiny given their rich detail—that makes them purely decorative, not informative. Those with slow connections can wait considerable time to access the larger original page for an image, and those with smaller screens can have difficulty in seeing original images, which are sometimes huge? The image here, squashed down to 160px, is dysfunctional, although it might be pretty in a postage-stamp sense. What on earth the subject is can't even be squinted at, and the caption has three words per line, which is very ungainly. If there's a problem fitting pics in at functional size, there are too many pics. Tony (talk) 02:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Would be good to set this image to the language section. Vrkach ( talk) 07:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
In "Etymology", it says that "Europe" once meant "the sphere of influence of the Western Church" (specifically excluding Russia), with the expanded definition only developing in the 19th century. But in "Definition", it says that the problem of defining Europe was finally resolved in 1730 (i.e. early 18th century). Iapetus ( talk) 15:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Are we sure Europe is considered a peninsula? The only reference cited in this regard in the article that possibly suggests this is No. 19, the MSN Encarta article on Europe, and the only time it does this is when it says "the peninsular nature of Europe ...". Not only is that not the same as actually calling it a peninsula, is Encarta really that credible?
I've looked myself, but I haven't found any credible source as of yet that calls Europe a penisula. As such, unless someone can, I suggest removing any references to Europe being a peninsula from the article-- The Talking Toaster ( talk) 22:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't class it as a peninsula; as the above states, if you start calling Europe a peninsula you'll never end. Africa is "technically" a peninsula and so is South America. We should be calling it a continent.
The definitions are "A piece of land that projects into a body of water and is connected with the mainland by an isthmus." or "a narrow strip of land projecting into a sea or lake from the mainland". Europe is the mainland from which peninsula's project, so shouldn't be refereed as a peninsula. It should be referred to as a continent: "one of the principal land masses of the earth, usually regarded as including Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, and South America."
--
Rushton2010 (
talk)
14:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd vote for all references to it as a peninsula to be removed.
These all say Europe is a peninsula: [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]. Emmette Hernandez Coleman ( talk) 17:37, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Irregardless, Europe as a Continent (which is what this article is about) cannot be a peninsula without excluding The UK, Ireland, Iceland, Malta, Cyprus, etc. etc. etc. (and I think they'd be very surprised to suddenly find they do not belong to a continent because wikipedia says so...) The mainland mass (at a rather large push) could be referred to as a peninsula (the same large push that calls Africa a peninsula)... but to call the entire continent a peninsula is wrong. It is a continent and should be referred to as such. --
Rushton2010 (
talk)
12:32, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
The article states that Neanderthals died out in Europe "probably due to climate change," with a cite after the next sentence that seems to go to the National Geographic Atlas of the World. To me, the climate change language doesn't match up with material in the article on Neanderthals, and there should be a better source for it than a world atlas. Arnold Rothstein1921 ( talk) 16:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Unlike the article in my native language, this article seems to avoid the controversy about the South-Eastern boundary of Europe by simply referring to "the Caucasus". Perhaps that is a wise decision - perhaps clarification is still appropriate. I always thought that de Greater Caucasus is the boundary, but Georgia, Armenia and Azerbeidjan all are members of the council of Europe, and several if not all these countries consider themselves part of Europe. Georgia even claims to be the craddle of Europe! Rbakels ( talk) 18:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
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Please change the link for Ireland in the list of countries. It currently goes to the island. It should go to Republic_of_Ireland Edwininlondon ( talk) 21:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
The 'Basque' Banu Qasi Muslim dynasty??? Basque nationalists have written this article?? First Banu Qasi, was a Zaragozan romanized Visigoth called Casio. Before the visigoths islamized Banu Qasi, Navarre and Basque territory belonged to the Christian kingdom of Galicia (called Kingdom of Asturias Spanish romantic nationalism from the middle of the century) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
83.61.34.230 (
talk)
20:27, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
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In Country list table, "Name(s) in official language(s)" replace "Lietvua" with "Lietuva". 74.95.186.108 ( talk) 18:35, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
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Please correct the following typo: in one of the country tables, the italian name of Switzerland is spelled "Svizerra" instead of the correct "Svizzera" (I only saw one occurrence, so it should be straightforward to find). 134.206.229.163 ( talk) 15:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
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edit latvia's population to 2,008,700 (2013 october) 95.68.109.214 ( talk) 15:58, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Since when kazakhstan and azerbaijan are European? So because they are in Asia i suggest deleting them from this article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.190.130 ( talk) 11:42, 3 January 2014 (UTC)