![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
I think the below noted links are informative and should be allowed in the article. Arcticdawg 02:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course they are informative. -- QuackGuru 02:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Please note, copyright law only allows for short samples from articles. You cannot add extended paragraphs. Rewrite the graphs in your own words and add a citation. -- Jayzel 03:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Add besides, the info I removed didn't belong as a footnote in the reference section, it should be included within the article itself. -- Jayzel 03:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned that all those links to external secondary sources are just dangling there without comment in the article itself. Some sort of reference within the article to the extensive coverage of the controversy would be appropriate. As it sits, the only sources are the New Yorker and Wikinews, which are hardly in the same calibre as the BBC, NYT, and American television networks (as botched as their articles might be). Comments? Risker 04:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This lead still isn't right:
The Essjay controversy arose after The New Yorker magazine disclosed that a prominent English Wikipedia editor and administrator known by the name "Essjay", who was also briefly employed at Wikia, had "forged his credentials and faked having a doctorate." 1
It makes it seem that the quote from ABC News came from The New Yorker which if one follows the sources we know isn't true. With the first ref. leading to ABC News this lead is a bit of a bait and switch. This earlier version:
The Essjay controversy occurred after The New Yorker magazine was obliged to add an editor's note to a prior article that a prominent English Wikipedia editor and administrator, and brief Wikia employee, known by the name "Essjay" did not have academic credentials he was originally reported as having.
makes more sense. This bait and switch bit makes the article lose credibility and needs to be corrected. Perhaps we can come up with a version somewhere in between these two that doesn't bait and switch? ( → Netscott) 04:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Kendrick7, sorry but your lead is crap and makes the article lose credibility. Let's come up with a better more encyclopedic one instead of revert warring. The points that need addressing in the lead sentence are:
Am I wrong? ( → Netscott) 05:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Right now, mainstream "reliable" sources are reporting that Essjay wrote or edited 16,000 - 20,000 articles, and that he was one of the few editors authorized to deal with vandalism. All of this is utter nonsense, of course, but it poses a problem for the article - do we ignore what sources are reporting (and what makes them think that this is a larger scandal than it is), or do we quote them and use original research to deny those allegations.
This is the central problem with self-references: how to write a sourced article about something that we know more about than the sources? Zocky | picture popups 05:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Only 1396 edits were to articles (ie, in the main space) and if you browse through his edit summaries a huge percentage of it is reverting vandalism [1]. I suppose there are perhaps 100 or 200 "proper" edits that he made to main space articles, which also explains why he wasn't caught making an error. Tintin 06:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
At least in his latter days and since I have been editing, Essjay frequently described himself as a "non-content" administrator who rarely contributed to mainspace. Newyorkbrad 19:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This should be obvious, but this is about a Louisville-area person and a controversy that is getting specially big coverage here in Louisville. If the banner is too "crufty" (this talk page isn't about style, it's about utility and communication), that's why I used the small parameter. If there's a problem with project banner cruft, don't take it out on my little project. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 05:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I just edited the template to make the small version smaller. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 05:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this, but I have trouble seeing these as plausibly GFDLable since they are copies of GFDL content without the attached attribution they are essentially only justifiable under a fair use doctrine and can't (I think) be put under GFDL. Now, if to each image the history of the page was attached, then it would be a valid derivative work and thus GFDLable. Am I correct here? JoshuaZ 06:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Was my licensing on the wikia image ok? If not, could someone correct it? Its just a screen shot of what it looked like back before Angela apprently nuked it (I just hadn't rermembered to upload)... - Denny 07:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no copyright problem with the screenshots. WAS 4.250 07:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Not quite but think of it this way, who created the content and what kind of licensing rights were granted for that content? These are derivative works under a GFDL license, attribute source and author(s) on the image pages. Gwen Gale 07:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Please see this discussion and reply there. - Denny 22:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The article used to contain four screenshots from the Google cache of the now-deleted page User:Essjay/History1. I have no strong opinion on whether it is appropriate for an article to contain an image of a deleted Wikipedia user page, but I did think that it was a shame to have four images where one would do. So I used a little application called SnapWeb to take a single image of the Google cache page. If other folks feel that an image of the deleted page is appropriate for the article, here it is — it should, however, be noted that this cached version of the page was in fact a vandalized version (an anonymous editor changed Essjay's caption "Yes, I'm a professor" to "Yes, I'm not a professor").
Regarding this screenshot, some thought should be given to the balance between the right to vanish and the need to preserve an accurate account of Wikipedia's history (in which Essjay's misrepresentations are now, alas, an important element). If a strong consensus emerges that the inclusion of a screenshot of Essjay's user page is important and appropriate, and if a similar consensus emerges among administrators that this would not be a violation of Wikipedia rules, I would be willing to provide a screenshot of the version of Essjay's user page in which he first made the claims of academic credentials. (For the record, it was the version of 07:58, May 10, 2005 (UTC).) I think this might be a better alternative than a Google cache of a vandalised version — but I do recognize that the creation of a screenshot of a deleted page would be highly unusual and problematic. What do other folks think? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 08:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
To clarify — I didn't mean to question the inclusion of this article. The cat left the bag last weekend, and he's not getting back in. My question was about the inclusion of the screenshot, Image:User-Essjay-History1.png. From a purely aesthetic standpoint, it would seem to be better to have a screenshot of the actual page rather than one muddied with Google's headers. From an encyclopedic standpoint, I am leaning towards the notion that an image of Essjay's user page adds significant content to the article: it shows the context in which his false persona was first presented. From a privacy/right-to-vanish standpoint, it's arguable that since there's already a screenshot on the web at Wikipedia Watch, any attempt to keep Essjay's former user page hidden is futile.
On the other hand, I can see Gwen's argument that the inclusion of the screenshot may seem like a "pile-on". And here's another question: would inclusion of a screenshot from a now-deleted page be considered original research? It's not, strictly speaking, verifiable by people who aren't Wikipedia admins. A screenshot from the WebCite copy would be more verifiable, but it loses most of the page's formatting. (And one thing I think we can all agree on is that Essjay's pages were very attractively formatted.)
I don't really have an opinion about the photo from the Wikia page — I'm mainly asking about the Wikipedia user page screenshot, because I have the ability and willingness to provide a better image for that if there is a consensus that doing so would be appropriate. I think I'll ask at WP:AN for an opinion of whether it would be an appropriate use of admin tools or not. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, User:Doc glasgow decided they needed to be removed and now they're going back and forth... I really don't understand how they're against policy, though. -- Dookama 22:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed them as unverifiable. If you can verify the deleted wikia page, please do let me know how.-- Docg 22:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the following paragraph should be added but it got deleted, I put it back for now:
In addition, Jimmy Wales, has requested further discussion about increasing the standards for checking credentials of editors at Wikipedia, such as, but not limited to, a proposal for power at Wikipedia to be accompanied by accountability Wikipedia:Administrators accountability and a proposal for credentials to be verified Wikipedia:Credentials. Arcticdawg 10:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Pls be wary of self reference. Gwen Gale 13:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
I think the below noted links are informative and should be allowed in the article. Arcticdawg 02:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course they are informative. -- QuackGuru 02:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Please note, copyright law only allows for short samples from articles. You cannot add extended paragraphs. Rewrite the graphs in your own words and add a citation. -- Jayzel 03:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Add besides, the info I removed didn't belong as a footnote in the reference section, it should be included within the article itself. -- Jayzel 03:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned that all those links to external secondary sources are just dangling there without comment in the article itself. Some sort of reference within the article to the extensive coverage of the controversy would be appropriate. As it sits, the only sources are the New Yorker and Wikinews, which are hardly in the same calibre as the BBC, NYT, and American television networks (as botched as their articles might be). Comments? Risker 04:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This lead still isn't right:
The Essjay controversy arose after The New Yorker magazine disclosed that a prominent English Wikipedia editor and administrator known by the name "Essjay", who was also briefly employed at Wikia, had "forged his credentials and faked having a doctorate." 1
It makes it seem that the quote from ABC News came from The New Yorker which if one follows the sources we know isn't true. With the first ref. leading to ABC News this lead is a bit of a bait and switch. This earlier version:
The Essjay controversy occurred after The New Yorker magazine was obliged to add an editor's note to a prior article that a prominent English Wikipedia editor and administrator, and brief Wikia employee, known by the name "Essjay" did not have academic credentials he was originally reported as having.
makes more sense. This bait and switch bit makes the article lose credibility and needs to be corrected. Perhaps we can come up with a version somewhere in between these two that doesn't bait and switch? ( → Netscott) 04:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Kendrick7, sorry but your lead is crap and makes the article lose credibility. Let's come up with a better more encyclopedic one instead of revert warring. The points that need addressing in the lead sentence are:
Am I wrong? ( → Netscott) 05:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Right now, mainstream "reliable" sources are reporting that Essjay wrote or edited 16,000 - 20,000 articles, and that he was one of the few editors authorized to deal with vandalism. All of this is utter nonsense, of course, but it poses a problem for the article - do we ignore what sources are reporting (and what makes them think that this is a larger scandal than it is), or do we quote them and use original research to deny those allegations.
This is the central problem with self-references: how to write a sourced article about something that we know more about than the sources? Zocky | picture popups 05:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Only 1396 edits were to articles (ie, in the main space) and if you browse through his edit summaries a huge percentage of it is reverting vandalism [1]. I suppose there are perhaps 100 or 200 "proper" edits that he made to main space articles, which also explains why he wasn't caught making an error. Tintin 06:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
At least in his latter days and since I have been editing, Essjay frequently described himself as a "non-content" administrator who rarely contributed to mainspace. Newyorkbrad 19:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This should be obvious, but this is about a Louisville-area person and a controversy that is getting specially big coverage here in Louisville. If the banner is too "crufty" (this talk page isn't about style, it's about utility and communication), that's why I used the small parameter. If there's a problem with project banner cruft, don't take it out on my little project. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 05:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I just edited the template to make the small version smaller. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 05:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about this, but I have trouble seeing these as plausibly GFDLable since they are copies of GFDL content without the attached attribution they are essentially only justifiable under a fair use doctrine and can't (I think) be put under GFDL. Now, if to each image the history of the page was attached, then it would be a valid derivative work and thus GFDLable. Am I correct here? JoshuaZ 06:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Was my licensing on the wikia image ok? If not, could someone correct it? Its just a screen shot of what it looked like back before Angela apprently nuked it (I just hadn't rermembered to upload)... - Denny 07:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no copyright problem with the screenshots. WAS 4.250 07:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Not quite but think of it this way, who created the content and what kind of licensing rights were granted for that content? These are derivative works under a GFDL license, attribute source and author(s) on the image pages. Gwen Gale 07:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Please see this discussion and reply there. - Denny 22:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The article used to contain four screenshots from the Google cache of the now-deleted page User:Essjay/History1. I have no strong opinion on whether it is appropriate for an article to contain an image of a deleted Wikipedia user page, but I did think that it was a shame to have four images where one would do. So I used a little application called SnapWeb to take a single image of the Google cache page. If other folks feel that an image of the deleted page is appropriate for the article, here it is — it should, however, be noted that this cached version of the page was in fact a vandalized version (an anonymous editor changed Essjay's caption "Yes, I'm a professor" to "Yes, I'm not a professor").
Regarding this screenshot, some thought should be given to the balance between the right to vanish and the need to preserve an accurate account of Wikipedia's history (in which Essjay's misrepresentations are now, alas, an important element). If a strong consensus emerges that the inclusion of a screenshot of Essjay's user page is important and appropriate, and if a similar consensus emerges among administrators that this would not be a violation of Wikipedia rules, I would be willing to provide a screenshot of the version of Essjay's user page in which he first made the claims of academic credentials. (For the record, it was the version of 07:58, May 10, 2005 (UTC).) I think this might be a better alternative than a Google cache of a vandalised version — but I do recognize that the creation of a screenshot of a deleted page would be highly unusual and problematic. What do other folks think? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 08:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
To clarify — I didn't mean to question the inclusion of this article. The cat left the bag last weekend, and he's not getting back in. My question was about the inclusion of the screenshot, Image:User-Essjay-History1.png. From a purely aesthetic standpoint, it would seem to be better to have a screenshot of the actual page rather than one muddied with Google's headers. From an encyclopedic standpoint, I am leaning towards the notion that an image of Essjay's user page adds significant content to the article: it shows the context in which his false persona was first presented. From a privacy/right-to-vanish standpoint, it's arguable that since there's already a screenshot on the web at Wikipedia Watch, any attempt to keep Essjay's former user page hidden is futile.
On the other hand, I can see Gwen's argument that the inclusion of the screenshot may seem like a "pile-on". And here's another question: would inclusion of a screenshot from a now-deleted page be considered original research? It's not, strictly speaking, verifiable by people who aren't Wikipedia admins. A screenshot from the WebCite copy would be more verifiable, but it loses most of the page's formatting. (And one thing I think we can all agree on is that Essjay's pages were very attractively formatted.)
I don't really have an opinion about the photo from the Wikia page — I'm mainly asking about the Wikipedia user page screenshot, because I have the ability and willingness to provide a better image for that if there is a consensus that doing so would be appropriate. I think I'll ask at WP:AN for an opinion of whether it would be an appropriate use of admin tools or not. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, User:Doc glasgow decided they needed to be removed and now they're going back and forth... I really don't understand how they're against policy, though. -- Dookama 22:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed them as unverifiable. If you can verify the deleted wikia page, please do let me know how.-- Docg 22:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the following paragraph should be added but it got deleted, I put it back for now:
In addition, Jimmy Wales, has requested further discussion about increasing the standards for checking credentials of editors at Wikipedia, such as, but not limited to, a proposal for power at Wikipedia to be accompanied by accountability Wikipedia:Administrators accountability and a proposal for credentials to be verified Wikipedia:Credentials. Arcticdawg 10:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Pls be wary of self reference. Gwen Gale 13:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)