A fact from Enriqueta Favez appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 23 December 2007, and was viewed approximately 7,205 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This biographical article uses the pronouns she/her. |
Correct Image? I don't think so...
I already saw this image "half-man and half-woman" atributed to Chevalier d'Eon, please see [ [1]]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.20.87 ( talk) 00:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no recorded image of Enrique or Enriqueta Favez. There is only a contemporary (speculative) reconstruction based on average facial characteristics for people form her time/region. see [ [3]]. The use of this image is both incorrect and improper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.254.166.195 ( talk) 02:56, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
It's clear, from the direct quote attributed to Enrique, that he self-identified as male. For the sake of respecting his own gender identity, male pronouns should be used, and the page title should reflect his male name. We can have the female name redirect to the male name. This disrespctful and anti-transgender language should be fixed. EmilyGrrl ( talk) 01:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)—
Update: we do have a record of Favez's correspondence, and trial letters. For a reproduction of the originals, see [ [5]].
Favez uses both gender pronouns. In private letters to Juana (the "ex-wife"), Favez sometimes uses both genders interchangeably. Indeed, sometimes two genders appear in the same sentence. She'll start female, and end the sentence by describing himself with male adjectives. This is interesting, and may either be force of habit, or political, or both, or neither. Favez wrote these letters after 20 years of living as a woman (so female genders might have slipped in unintentionally, despite her identification as a male) to Juana, after the latter decided to re-marry (thus possibly encouraging Favez to use male pronouns in her love letters to give the impression of a hetero-normative affair, despite identifying as a woman herself).
My point is, even with the original sources, we just don't know how Favez identified privately throughout the full extent of her/his life.
However, it should be noted that Favez spent the fast majority of her life living (and describing herself) as female. Indeed, Favez spent about 4 years living as a man in Cuba, two years as a man in France, and the rest of her life (approximately 20 years) was lived as a woman in New Orleans, and Mexico. Throughout that time, we see her correspondence uses primarily female pronouns, in an effort to eliminate all references to her life as a man in Cuba.
Please read the original sources. This article should, most likely, use female pronouns (by the sheer length of her time identifying as a woman), or at least make note of this very interesting duplicity--where he uses both female and male names and pronouns interchangeably with Juana.
It's blatantly anachronistic (at best) or historically revisionist (at worst) to rely on modern gendertheory to ascribe pronouns to an individual in the 1800s--particularly when it differs from their own organic use. The use of male pronouns here also does not follow Wiki's policy of verifiability. I should also note that the Spanish version of this article uses female pronouns.
Can't we just use "Favez" or a third party pronoun for everything? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.254.166.195 ( talk) 03:07, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Hey. I did a look around for other transgendered people, and found that the articles use the pronoun of the identity of which the person identified. For example, Sara Davis Buechner was born David Buechner, but the article uses the pronoun 'she.' A similar case exists at Lady Bunny. Based on this, I would say that the article should be renamed Enrique Favez, and the pronouns should be changed to male. What do you think? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 17:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
This consensus was ignored in
this edit. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough,
19:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC).
Per the overwhelming view of sources, I've moved this back to "Enriqueta"/"she". Even the source cited for the claim that she's a trans man refers to her repeatedly and thoughtfully as a woman. I've added the supposition that she was a trans man, and we could consider adding those categories back in addition to the cross-dressing categories if we think it's something that people interested in the former topic might want to find, but something thrown out as a defense to a criminal charge of fraud isn't exactly the strongest statement of self-identification, and Pagés evidently doesn't think that precludes anyone from discussing Favez as a woman or her life as a woman's life. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 15:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
The Wikipedia guidelines on gender identity state that we should "Use gendered words only if they reflect the person's latest self-identification as reported in recent sources". Seeing as Enrique reportedly went on trial and under oath declared himself to be a man trapped in a woman's body, that seems like enough of a recorded self-identification to be worth respecting. The fact that other people of the era (and later) kept misgendering him, and the fact that he was compelled to live out the last portion of his life in a nunnery are irrelevant to how he viewed himself and his gender. I am of the opinion that we should just use the male pronoun for him, but if we can't reach a consensus on that, can we at least rewrite the article to avoid pronouns entirely? ShinySquirrel42 ( talk) 00:19, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
A fact from Enriqueta Favez appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 23 December 2007, and was viewed approximately 7,205 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This biographical article uses the pronouns she/her. |
Correct Image? I don't think so...
I already saw this image "half-man and half-woman" atributed to Chevalier d'Eon, please see [ [1]]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.20.87 ( talk) 00:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no recorded image of Enrique or Enriqueta Favez. There is only a contemporary (speculative) reconstruction based on average facial characteristics for people form her time/region. see [ [3]]. The use of this image is both incorrect and improper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.254.166.195 ( talk) 02:56, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
It's clear, from the direct quote attributed to Enrique, that he self-identified as male. For the sake of respecting his own gender identity, male pronouns should be used, and the page title should reflect his male name. We can have the female name redirect to the male name. This disrespctful and anti-transgender language should be fixed. EmilyGrrl ( talk) 01:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)—
Update: we do have a record of Favez's correspondence, and trial letters. For a reproduction of the originals, see [ [5]].
Favez uses both gender pronouns. In private letters to Juana (the "ex-wife"), Favez sometimes uses both genders interchangeably. Indeed, sometimes two genders appear in the same sentence. She'll start female, and end the sentence by describing himself with male adjectives. This is interesting, and may either be force of habit, or political, or both, or neither. Favez wrote these letters after 20 years of living as a woman (so female genders might have slipped in unintentionally, despite her identification as a male) to Juana, after the latter decided to re-marry (thus possibly encouraging Favez to use male pronouns in her love letters to give the impression of a hetero-normative affair, despite identifying as a woman herself).
My point is, even with the original sources, we just don't know how Favez identified privately throughout the full extent of her/his life.
However, it should be noted that Favez spent the fast majority of her life living (and describing herself) as female. Indeed, Favez spent about 4 years living as a man in Cuba, two years as a man in France, and the rest of her life (approximately 20 years) was lived as a woman in New Orleans, and Mexico. Throughout that time, we see her correspondence uses primarily female pronouns, in an effort to eliminate all references to her life as a man in Cuba.
Please read the original sources. This article should, most likely, use female pronouns (by the sheer length of her time identifying as a woman), or at least make note of this very interesting duplicity--where he uses both female and male names and pronouns interchangeably with Juana.
It's blatantly anachronistic (at best) or historically revisionist (at worst) to rely on modern gendertheory to ascribe pronouns to an individual in the 1800s--particularly when it differs from their own organic use. The use of male pronouns here also does not follow Wiki's policy of verifiability. I should also note that the Spanish version of this article uses female pronouns.
Can't we just use "Favez" or a third party pronoun for everything? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.254.166.195 ( talk) 03:07, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Hey. I did a look around for other transgendered people, and found that the articles use the pronoun of the identity of which the person identified. For example, Sara Davis Buechner was born David Buechner, but the article uses the pronoun 'she.' A similar case exists at Lady Bunny. Based on this, I would say that the article should be renamed Enrique Favez, and the pronouns should be changed to male. What do you think? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 17:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
This consensus was ignored in
this edit. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough,
19:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC).
Per the overwhelming view of sources, I've moved this back to "Enriqueta"/"she". Even the source cited for the claim that she's a trans man refers to her repeatedly and thoughtfully as a woman. I've added the supposition that she was a trans man, and we could consider adding those categories back in addition to the cross-dressing categories if we think it's something that people interested in the former topic might want to find, but something thrown out as a defense to a criminal charge of fraud isn't exactly the strongest statement of self-identification, and Pagés evidently doesn't think that precludes anyone from discussing Favez as a woman or her life as a woman's life. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 15:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
The Wikipedia guidelines on gender identity state that we should "Use gendered words only if they reflect the person's latest self-identification as reported in recent sources". Seeing as Enrique reportedly went on trial and under oath declared himself to be a man trapped in a woman's body, that seems like enough of a recorded self-identification to be worth respecting. The fact that other people of the era (and later) kept misgendering him, and the fact that he was compelled to live out the last portion of his life in a nunnery are irrelevant to how he viewed himself and his gender. I am of the opinion that we should just use the male pronoun for him, but if we can't reach a consensus on that, can we at least rewrite the article to avoid pronouns entirely? ShinySquirrel42 ( talk) 00:19, 3 June 2021 (UTC)