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5 September 2010: The third sentence in the article does not make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.128.32 ( talk) 15:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Why the random Asian endogamy statistics? At least, put something more relevant up if you're going to make it the eye-catcher of the article. 129.97.192.145 18:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Mäni Tanks, dat You helped to let my additions to be transformed being more in proper english... :-))
2006/25/08: I suppressed the last part of "A Japanese endogamist would require marriage only to other Japanese. A Jewish endogamist would require marriage only to other Jews," since:
(1) Jews are an endogamist nation, as it is very well known, but as far as endogamy is concerned, it has nothing to do with "specified social groups, classes, or ethnicities", but concerns sheer RELIGIOUS concerns. Whoever validly CONVERTS to (Orthodox) JUDAISM as a RELIGION becomes automatically a perfectly suitable match for any endogamist Jew, though that convert's "social group, class or ethnicity" isn't affected in any way by that process of conversion;
(2) Jews are not relevant in that respect as an example for "specified social groups, classes, or ethnicities", since a convert to Judaism, whatever his origins and ethnicity, is a perfectly suitable match for any endogamist Jew. The same can't be said of a Japanese endogamist, since it's impossible to turn anybody into a Japanese national (which is different from citizenship, of course). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.236.231.158 ( talk • contribs)
Good call, 158 -- I've never heard the term "endogamist" except in this article. Continuing on the subject, this article is written with a very distinct "civilizational POV" -- as is the article on exogamy, which I just commented on. The talk about the Samaritans is undue weight, and probably original research -- personally, if I were asked to give a reason for their being close to extinction, I'd say that it had more to do with their living in Palestine and being neither Jew nor Muslim, than with their endogamy. Certainly the Jews in Europe and the Parsis in India -- let alone the Arabs after the Muslim conquest of the whole Near East! -- didn't go extinct because they were endogamous... ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 18:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I am correcting the limitation of endogamic groups from "Orthodox Jews" into "Jews". Since a Jew is (under religious law) born from a Jewish mother, members in general of this people / religion seek mating among other members of their people / religion. "Orthodox" refers exclusively to religious orthodoxy (ritual rules), while the notion of endogamy applies better to Jews in general who seek mates within their religious / ethnic community. -- Laocoont ( talk) 22:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
"Endogamy is the practice of marrying within a specific ethnic group.... " WTF!!?? marrying? it can be only sex, obviously —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.222.8.252 ( talk) 18:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
The subject matter of this article is very polarizing. Before making comparisons between religious practices, it is vital to be well informed. There is a tag on this page that says the article has only one source. So there is clearly an awareness that this is a problem. By treating this without the seriousness it deserves, you risk offending absolutely everyone!
The article says that Roman Catholics usually marry within their faith, but are not strongly endogamous. But I don't think that Roman Catholics can be married in the church unless both parties have been baptized. If the marriage is not performed by an ordained Roman Catholic clergyman, then it is not a Roman Catholic marriage! Am I certain of this? No. That is why the fact needs to be checked.
Section 1 Adherents refers to Assyrians along with modern era religions. Are there present-day Assyrians, and do they practice endogamy? Or is the entire section supposed to be historical?
In the same section, Islamic belief is initially described as not strongly practicing endogamy. The section ends by stating that Islam tends to be passed on through patrilinearity. The same is true for Judaism, except that in Judaism, progression is through the mother, matrilinearity. So why is Islam only partially endogamous but Judaism is very endogamous? I am not disputing the veracity necessarily, but rather, the seemingly contradictory logic.
In general, as specific to Islam, is the content equally applicable to Sh'iite and Sunni?
There are inconsistent references to Jews. Orthodox in one place, Ashkenazi in another, just "Jews" elsewhere. Orthodox refers specifically to religion, Ashkenazi refers more to ethnicity and culture, but also to religion, as distinct from Sephardic Jews. There is no mention of Sephardic Jews, though. Does there need to be?
There is class-based bias which results in misrepresentation. It is meant to illustrate how endogamy stifles upward class mobility.
I would counter argue that by this line of reasoning, skilled trades ALSO establish endogamy just as strongly. Specifically,
The single instance of genetic effect, the Samaritans, is probably not well sourced enough to warrant inclusion in the WikiGenetics project. There are other examples of the effect of endogamy that might cause legitimate genetic issues (I can think of a few). Those should also be cited.
Religion and marriage practices are not topics to be treated casually. It is asking for trouble and strife to do so. This article needs to be reviewed by someone well-informed in comparative religion, or cultural anthropology. -- FeralOink ( talk) 22:19, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Highly debatable! Ideas, attitudes, ways of speaking and acting, knowledge of how to charm and convince others, confidence and tactics that allow individuals to aggressively take over leadership of a group, etc, etc are all things learned (whether through active teaching or by passively soaking up) in the home and extended social group. Add to that family and other social connections to high-ranking executives and preferential access to the best education simply because of cost, and no further explanation for the passing on of rank and privilege is required. The notion that some inherent genetic superiority ("due to similarities between the two") is responsible for high social rank is nonsense propagated by the "elites" in question to provide justification for their privilege and to dissuade others from attempting to change the social structure. This idea of inherent genetic superiority is, of course, also at the root of racialist theory. Heavenlyblue ( talk) 03:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC) Although what you wrote is very interesting, it is purely conjecture.
Besides Catholics, I believe the New Testament says that Christians should only marry other Christians. 24.128.186.53 ( talk) 14:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The article should give South Asia as an example for endogamy - caste, sub-caste, linguistic, ethnic endogamy is practiced throughout India. Furthermore, endogamy is a source of the huge amount of occurrences of genetic diseases in modern South Asian populations. This research sheds light on this - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Genetic-ailments-among-Indians-due-to-endogamy/articleshow/5052414.cms and http://www.deccanherald.com/content/623376/marriage-groups-causes-rare-genetic.html . The 2 articles are spaced between 2009 and 2017 from the same research institute however the hypothesis laid out as the foundation is the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.171.129.168 ( talk) 15:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
IMHO, the description should start by saying that there are two types: one largely due to "natural" conditions (distance, isolation), the other by choice.-- Japarthur ( talk) 07:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
They too practice this 69.124.228.250 ( talk) 03:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Greeks in general, not just in Cyprus, practice endogamy, as Greece is surrounded by traditionally hostile countries (Albania, Bulgaria and Turkey). Even Greeks abroad almost never marry non-Greeks (aka barbarians) in order to preserve their Orthodox religion. 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:25F4:720C:97AE:31A5 ( talk) 10:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
The intro seems kinda undecided about whether it's referring to people or wildlife? I don't think "mating" is appropriate to refer to people, but I'm a bit stumped for a succinct improvement. Irtapil ( talk) 12:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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It is requested that an image or photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
5 September 2010: The third sentence in the article does not make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.128.32 ( talk) 15:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Why the random Asian endogamy statistics? At least, put something more relevant up if you're going to make it the eye-catcher of the article. 129.97.192.145 18:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Mäni Tanks, dat You helped to let my additions to be transformed being more in proper english... :-))
2006/25/08: I suppressed the last part of "A Japanese endogamist would require marriage only to other Japanese. A Jewish endogamist would require marriage only to other Jews," since:
(1) Jews are an endogamist nation, as it is very well known, but as far as endogamy is concerned, it has nothing to do with "specified social groups, classes, or ethnicities", but concerns sheer RELIGIOUS concerns. Whoever validly CONVERTS to (Orthodox) JUDAISM as a RELIGION becomes automatically a perfectly suitable match for any endogamist Jew, though that convert's "social group, class or ethnicity" isn't affected in any way by that process of conversion;
(2) Jews are not relevant in that respect as an example for "specified social groups, classes, or ethnicities", since a convert to Judaism, whatever his origins and ethnicity, is a perfectly suitable match for any endogamist Jew. The same can't be said of a Japanese endogamist, since it's impossible to turn anybody into a Japanese national (which is different from citizenship, of course). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.236.231.158 ( talk • contribs)
Good call, 158 -- I've never heard the term "endogamist" except in this article. Continuing on the subject, this article is written with a very distinct "civilizational POV" -- as is the article on exogamy, which I just commented on. The talk about the Samaritans is undue weight, and probably original research -- personally, if I were asked to give a reason for their being close to extinction, I'd say that it had more to do with their living in Palestine and being neither Jew nor Muslim, than with their endogamy. Certainly the Jews in Europe and the Parsis in India -- let alone the Arabs after the Muslim conquest of the whole Near East! -- didn't go extinct because they were endogamous... ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 18:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I am correcting the limitation of endogamic groups from "Orthodox Jews" into "Jews". Since a Jew is (under religious law) born from a Jewish mother, members in general of this people / religion seek mating among other members of their people / religion. "Orthodox" refers exclusively to religious orthodoxy (ritual rules), while the notion of endogamy applies better to Jews in general who seek mates within their religious / ethnic community. -- Laocoont ( talk) 22:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
"Endogamy is the practice of marrying within a specific ethnic group.... " WTF!!?? marrying? it can be only sex, obviously —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.222.8.252 ( talk) 18:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
The subject matter of this article is very polarizing. Before making comparisons between religious practices, it is vital to be well informed. There is a tag on this page that says the article has only one source. So there is clearly an awareness that this is a problem. By treating this without the seriousness it deserves, you risk offending absolutely everyone!
The article says that Roman Catholics usually marry within their faith, but are not strongly endogamous. But I don't think that Roman Catholics can be married in the church unless both parties have been baptized. If the marriage is not performed by an ordained Roman Catholic clergyman, then it is not a Roman Catholic marriage! Am I certain of this? No. That is why the fact needs to be checked.
Section 1 Adherents refers to Assyrians along with modern era religions. Are there present-day Assyrians, and do they practice endogamy? Or is the entire section supposed to be historical?
In the same section, Islamic belief is initially described as not strongly practicing endogamy. The section ends by stating that Islam tends to be passed on through patrilinearity. The same is true for Judaism, except that in Judaism, progression is through the mother, matrilinearity. So why is Islam only partially endogamous but Judaism is very endogamous? I am not disputing the veracity necessarily, but rather, the seemingly contradictory logic.
In general, as specific to Islam, is the content equally applicable to Sh'iite and Sunni?
There are inconsistent references to Jews. Orthodox in one place, Ashkenazi in another, just "Jews" elsewhere. Orthodox refers specifically to religion, Ashkenazi refers more to ethnicity and culture, but also to religion, as distinct from Sephardic Jews. There is no mention of Sephardic Jews, though. Does there need to be?
There is class-based bias which results in misrepresentation. It is meant to illustrate how endogamy stifles upward class mobility.
I would counter argue that by this line of reasoning, skilled trades ALSO establish endogamy just as strongly. Specifically,
The single instance of genetic effect, the Samaritans, is probably not well sourced enough to warrant inclusion in the WikiGenetics project. There are other examples of the effect of endogamy that might cause legitimate genetic issues (I can think of a few). Those should also be cited.
Religion and marriage practices are not topics to be treated casually. It is asking for trouble and strife to do so. This article needs to be reviewed by someone well-informed in comparative religion, or cultural anthropology. -- FeralOink ( talk) 22:19, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Highly debatable! Ideas, attitudes, ways of speaking and acting, knowledge of how to charm and convince others, confidence and tactics that allow individuals to aggressively take over leadership of a group, etc, etc are all things learned (whether through active teaching or by passively soaking up) in the home and extended social group. Add to that family and other social connections to high-ranking executives and preferential access to the best education simply because of cost, and no further explanation for the passing on of rank and privilege is required. The notion that some inherent genetic superiority ("due to similarities between the two") is responsible for high social rank is nonsense propagated by the "elites" in question to provide justification for their privilege and to dissuade others from attempting to change the social structure. This idea of inherent genetic superiority is, of course, also at the root of racialist theory. Heavenlyblue ( talk) 03:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC) Although what you wrote is very interesting, it is purely conjecture.
Besides Catholics, I believe the New Testament says that Christians should only marry other Christians. 24.128.186.53 ( talk) 14:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The article should give South Asia as an example for endogamy - caste, sub-caste, linguistic, ethnic endogamy is practiced throughout India. Furthermore, endogamy is a source of the huge amount of occurrences of genetic diseases in modern South Asian populations. This research sheds light on this - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Genetic-ailments-among-Indians-due-to-endogamy/articleshow/5052414.cms and http://www.deccanherald.com/content/623376/marriage-groups-causes-rare-genetic.html . The 2 articles are spaced between 2009 and 2017 from the same research institute however the hypothesis laid out as the foundation is the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.171.129.168 ( talk) 15:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
IMHO, the description should start by saying that there are two types: one largely due to "natural" conditions (distance, isolation), the other by choice.-- Japarthur ( talk) 07:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
They too practice this 69.124.228.250 ( talk) 03:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Greeks in general, not just in Cyprus, practice endogamy, as Greece is surrounded by traditionally hostile countries (Albania, Bulgaria and Turkey). Even Greeks abroad almost never marry non-Greeks (aka barbarians) in order to preserve their Orthodox religion. 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:25F4:720C:97AE:31A5 ( talk) 10:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
The intro seems kinda undecided about whether it's referring to people or wildlife? I don't think "mating" is appropriate to refer to people, but I'm a bit stumped for a succinct improvement. Irtapil ( talk) 12:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)