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The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 15:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm probably not making myself very popular with Polish-speaking users, however I think this article needs to be in the English form since this is the English Wikipedia. Shouldn't this article be titled under "Elisabeth of Austria (1437–1505)", similar to the other Elisabeth of Austrias? "Elzbieta Rakuszanka" is Polish which translates as "Elisabeth of Austria" as stated in the article itself. Gryffindor 20:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Good move, and Hapsburg isn't a bad suggestion either. Dr. Dan 01:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Her birth year is not a confirmed piece of infirmation. Various sources tend to give 1435 or 1436. Quite usual for that era - some dates are just approximations. Therefore, absolutely unacceptable to use any birth year in the title. The RM proposal is built upon faulty information, and should not be approved. Moreover, I faced some sources that use "Elisabeth of Habsburg", thus the "of Austria" may just be an invention here. It is quite clear that it cannot be accepted just as a translation from "Rakuszanka" - as Polish words directly translated may lead to erroneous titles in English. Habsburg seems to have additional support from the fact that German WP has titled her as "Elisabeth von Habsburg" (Österreich nowhere even near there). The whole "vote" above should be discarded, as WP needs knowledgeable/ expertised people first to find what actually is her name in trustworthy English texts. Shilkanni 20:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Please stop writing anachronisms to biographies of medieval Habsburgs. If you know anything about the use of the title of archduke, you would know that the assumption by Rudolf IV was based on a document he had forged, and only Frederick III granted the title officially, first to his son and later to certain male cousins. First archduchesses appear only among their descendants. Shilkanni 09:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You are incorrect when indicating that before Rudolf IV, the title somehow already was in existence. Of course, since the first forgery ever to introduce the idea was made at instigation of Rudolf IV, none had thus even heard of it before. Emperor Charles IV refused to recognize the title Rudolf IV had invented through that forgery, so it was not in use even in Rudolf's time nor in long time afterwards. I request you not to spread untruths like "the title 'Archduke' was not fully introduced until Rudolf IV". The history of the title archduke (see that article) goes so that Frederick III confirmed the title in 1453, but only to actual rulers of Austrian territories, i.e himself. A couple of years later, Frederick's younger brother (when receiving his province of trans-Enns) started to use it. Only in 1477, the first cousin was authorized to use it. Frederick's son and heir Maximilian started to use it only after his wife's death that occurred in 1482. In 15th century, it was limited to actual rulers, so no female children used it. Only later, on 16th century, daughters became entitled to it. (the actual use can be checked from e.g [1]) Documents show that Ladislaus the Posthumous, who died in 1457, never used it - he used the title "Duke of Austria". Ladislaus' sister elisabeth accordingly was never an archduchess. The title you have written in that article (and possibly to others) therefore show just bad scholarship, not any proper handling of history. Contrary to your conclusion "I do not see any problems with the referral", there are obvious problems in such referrals, as any objective historian understands. Shilkanni 09:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing aggressive. Only super-sensitive may imagine such. It is only natural to inquire whether the error is systematical, i.e repeated over a multitude of articles. Of course you are incorrect in alleging "she was referred as such" - there are no documents to show such (contemporaneous) referral. Shilkanni 10:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
It is most probable that she actually carried no formalized title before her marriage. You should understand the medieval culture and context: everyone there around knew that she was the daughter of the late king of at least three kingdoms, emperor-elect. She did not need any title... As far as I can surmise, her "title" presumably was "daughter of the king", daughter of emperor...
In those times, there was no widespread use of so-called courtesy titles - all titles were basically "substantive". German fiefholders shared their fiefs between male members of the dynasty, so each male's title (was it count, duke, whatever) actually signified a portion of the land itself and a substantive hold of the title (or its share). French and other Latin-based fiefs on the other hand went to one holder at a time, usually the eldest son. There, younger members of the family were just noble persons, not having a courtesy title. This all left daughters usually without any formal titles.
After her marriage, she naturally was the queen (consort) -i.e, regina, of Poland, grand duchess of Lithuania, etc.
You have to understand that the courtesy of allowing all children of a German noble (duke, archduke, count...) to use the same title, is a later courtesy tradition, and fully became in use typically as late as sometime in 18th century. It evolved as one of the results of fiefholder patriarchs stipulating a decree forbidding the division of their lands between sons which decrees took place in 17th and 18th centuries usually. In 16th century, counties and duchies were yet divided all the time (cf histories of
Brunswick,
Hesse,
Saxony-Ernestines,
Anhalt). When fathers stipulated the inheritance be indivisible and going to the eldest son only, the old custom of sharing continued in junior sons having a right to the title however, and that development quite allowed daughters to share the title too. At approximately same era (17th century, 18th century), some kingdoms already legislated formal princely titles to younger children of their monarchs.
I would say that even "duchess" is an anachronism regarding Elisabeth.
Shilkanni
16:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 15:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm probably not making myself very popular with Polish-speaking users, however I think this article needs to be in the English form since this is the English Wikipedia. Shouldn't this article be titled under "Elisabeth of Austria (1437–1505)", similar to the other Elisabeth of Austrias? "Elzbieta Rakuszanka" is Polish which translates as "Elisabeth of Austria" as stated in the article itself. Gryffindor 20:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Good move, and Hapsburg isn't a bad suggestion either. Dr. Dan 01:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Her birth year is not a confirmed piece of infirmation. Various sources tend to give 1435 or 1436. Quite usual for that era - some dates are just approximations. Therefore, absolutely unacceptable to use any birth year in the title. The RM proposal is built upon faulty information, and should not be approved. Moreover, I faced some sources that use "Elisabeth of Habsburg", thus the "of Austria" may just be an invention here. It is quite clear that it cannot be accepted just as a translation from "Rakuszanka" - as Polish words directly translated may lead to erroneous titles in English. Habsburg seems to have additional support from the fact that German WP has titled her as "Elisabeth von Habsburg" (Österreich nowhere even near there). The whole "vote" above should be discarded, as WP needs knowledgeable/ expertised people first to find what actually is her name in trustworthy English texts. Shilkanni 20:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Please stop writing anachronisms to biographies of medieval Habsburgs. If you know anything about the use of the title of archduke, you would know that the assumption by Rudolf IV was based on a document he had forged, and only Frederick III granted the title officially, first to his son and later to certain male cousins. First archduchesses appear only among their descendants. Shilkanni 09:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You are incorrect when indicating that before Rudolf IV, the title somehow already was in existence. Of course, since the first forgery ever to introduce the idea was made at instigation of Rudolf IV, none had thus even heard of it before. Emperor Charles IV refused to recognize the title Rudolf IV had invented through that forgery, so it was not in use even in Rudolf's time nor in long time afterwards. I request you not to spread untruths like "the title 'Archduke' was not fully introduced until Rudolf IV". The history of the title archduke (see that article) goes so that Frederick III confirmed the title in 1453, but only to actual rulers of Austrian territories, i.e himself. A couple of years later, Frederick's younger brother (when receiving his province of trans-Enns) started to use it. Only in 1477, the first cousin was authorized to use it. Frederick's son and heir Maximilian started to use it only after his wife's death that occurred in 1482. In 15th century, it was limited to actual rulers, so no female children used it. Only later, on 16th century, daughters became entitled to it. (the actual use can be checked from e.g [1]) Documents show that Ladislaus the Posthumous, who died in 1457, never used it - he used the title "Duke of Austria". Ladislaus' sister elisabeth accordingly was never an archduchess. The title you have written in that article (and possibly to others) therefore show just bad scholarship, not any proper handling of history. Contrary to your conclusion "I do not see any problems with the referral", there are obvious problems in such referrals, as any objective historian understands. Shilkanni 09:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing aggressive. Only super-sensitive may imagine such. It is only natural to inquire whether the error is systematical, i.e repeated over a multitude of articles. Of course you are incorrect in alleging "she was referred as such" - there are no documents to show such (contemporaneous) referral. Shilkanni 10:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
It is most probable that she actually carried no formalized title before her marriage. You should understand the medieval culture and context: everyone there around knew that she was the daughter of the late king of at least three kingdoms, emperor-elect. She did not need any title... As far as I can surmise, her "title" presumably was "daughter of the king", daughter of emperor...
In those times, there was no widespread use of so-called courtesy titles - all titles were basically "substantive". German fiefholders shared their fiefs between male members of the dynasty, so each male's title (was it count, duke, whatever) actually signified a portion of the land itself and a substantive hold of the title (or its share). French and other Latin-based fiefs on the other hand went to one holder at a time, usually the eldest son. There, younger members of the family were just noble persons, not having a courtesy title. This all left daughters usually without any formal titles.
After her marriage, she naturally was the queen (consort) -i.e, regina, of Poland, grand duchess of Lithuania, etc.
You have to understand that the courtesy of allowing all children of a German noble (duke, archduke, count...) to use the same title, is a later courtesy tradition, and fully became in use typically as late as sometime in 18th century. It evolved as one of the results of fiefholder patriarchs stipulating a decree forbidding the division of their lands between sons which decrees took place in 17th and 18th centuries usually. In 16th century, counties and duchies were yet divided all the time (cf histories of
Brunswick,
Hesse,
Saxony-Ernestines,
Anhalt). When fathers stipulated the inheritance be indivisible and going to the eldest son only, the old custom of sharing continued in junior sons having a right to the title however, and that development quite allowed daughters to share the title too. At approximately same era (17th century, 18th century), some kingdoms already legislated formal princely titles to younger children of their monarchs.
I would say that even "duchess" is an anachronism regarding Elisabeth.
Shilkanni
16:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)