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I found that is the wish of all Slavs, a bronze age culture. What for a absurd wikipedia article. really competent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:46:D73:23B:78C1:78E4:A9FD:4731 ( talk) 18:19, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
I synchronized the previous date with that in the special article, where it is backed up with sources. HJJHolm ( talk) 15:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
If they were polytheistic, they certainly had a concept of gods. However, as they weren't Christian, they couldn't have had a concept of "God" (I presume capital G here is meant to refer to Yahweh despite the link to god), weak or otherwise. Is this supposed to mean they had a weak concept of a supreme god? ("Weak concept" could also use some more context.) 93.136.15.96 ( talk) 00:47, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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These two sentences seem to contradict each other: "Although the former common language (known as Proto- or Common Slavic) is not attested in written sources, it can be reconstructed by studying its daughter languages.[25][26] The similarities among the daughter languages indicate that Common Slavic was spoken during recorded history, with its division into daughter languages beginning in the 9th century AD.[24][25]"
I cannot see how these two claims can be simultaneously true.
81.175.244.139 ( talk) 16:47, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
In the Linguistics section, some of the proto-Slavic words are given in Cyrillic script, others in Latin. In fact, the first two examples are "svekry" and "zъly".
Actually, there seem to be not two scripts, but three. What is *šelmъ? How is it pronounced? Am I supposed to recognize it well enough to be able to see that it's an obvious Germanic loanword? I think I've seen Czech linguists use something like this—basically Czech Latin, but with extra vowels borrowed from Polish Latin and from Cyrillic (and maybe a couple of Latin-based but IPA-invented forms?). But I have no idea what it's called or how to search for it, so, even if I'm right, that doesn't do any good.
Anyway, I think the article needs to standardize on one of the three. And if it's the third, it needs a note saying what this notation is called and where to look up the details. (And ideally, it should be whatever's used in Wikipedia's other articles related to proto-Slavic language.) -- 173.228.85.220 ( talk) 09:40, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi Jim1138, just added an image of a Sclaveni from the Otto's Gospel Book, which shows a depiction of an early Slav, the appearance is not what in the modern sense we would call 'Ginger', bright red hair with pale complexion, but 'Auburn' as seen in this picture [1]. But, yes Auburn is a sub-category of Red hair, though Ginger is more associated with Norther Europe while Auburn with Eastern Europe and Asia. -- E-960 ( talk) 09:04, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Early Slavs. Krakkos ( talk) 11:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:11, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 17:45, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Early Slavs → Ancient Slavs – WP:COMMONNAME, more used. See plain google search, google scholars etc. Heanor ( talk) 13:53, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
River Neman - Southern Slavs till this day use that word for monster.Maybe it is Balto-Slavic,or Slavo-Baltic,but most certainly not only Baltic. I have noticed that the general tendention on Wikipedia is to depict Slavs as lesser ones and that is really appalling practice. For example,today's Germany is full of Slavic toponyms,but in each article it is said that Slavs adopted Germanic culture,language,etc.Could it be the other way around?Maybe,in the real world,but on anti-Slavic Wikipedia surely not. 178.222.77.49 ( talk) 06:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Curta, Florin (2001). "Elites and group identity north of the Danube frontier: the archaeological evidence". The Making of the Slavs. History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region. Cambridge University Press. pp. 227–310. ISBN 9780511496295.
{{ cite book}}
: no-break space character in|title=
at position 18 ( help)
Numulunj pilgae ( talk) 07:47, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Hi E-960. i added a quote to warfare from ibn rusta's writings, but then you removed it. I think it would be a good idea to keep it though as it gives good historical backup, mentioning weapons used, leadership, armour and the absence of cavalry. :) besides, other articles have similar quotes in them so it makes sense for this one too. there were other ancient quotes regarding slavs warfare but this one seems the least biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe Flats 123 ( talk • contribs) 18:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Miki Filigranski, why are you inserting a seconday/minority point into the Origins section, which should only contian the universally accepted views on the origins of the Slavs. There are also minority views that the germanic Suebi (Souobenoi/Sovobenoi, Suobeni, Suoweni), were at least partily Slavs, but the Origins section is not the place to present it. I am familiar with the theory that some Slavs mixed with Sarmatian tribes and I think this is a legitimate view. However, the text you added makes it sound like Slavs are Iranian, and came for central Asia, in fact the the overwhelming majority of scholars to belive that the Slavs originated Polesia. Even the source you citied states that "we can easily imagie that some East Proto-Slavic tribes, or one particular tribe, in a close alliance with the nomadic and belligerant Alanians or under their hegemony accepted their life-style and got involved in their migrations in this case east of the Volga River. E-960 ( talk) 19:26, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
User:Joe Flats 123, I've made a revert, please explain removal of sourced information. Miki Filigranski ( talk) 08:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Ethnogenesis: "One of the theories used to explain language replacement is that a dominant Slavic elite diaspora managed to spread, conquer and slavicize various communities.[115][116][117][118]"
Fails verification. Full book available here. Renfrew doesn't say anything about Slavs. These pages are a basic primer about the linguistic concept of elite dominance.
Page available here.
It does not exactly say what is implied in-Wiki, as Dolukhanov is saying that Slavic spread through cultural diffusion after migrations related to climate change and nomad aggressors, rather than Slavic elite dominance. As a secondary source, Bell-Fialkoff also offers criticism of this view:
From "The Role of Migration in the History of the Eurasian Steppe Sedentary Civilization", pp. 139-140 ( link):
Extended content
|
---|
"Dolukhanov suggests the following scenario for the earliest phase of Slavic migation in the fifth and sixth centuries: "The increasing aridity of the climate in the forest steppe zone caused a considerable decline of agricultural productivity in that area [but he also writes, on page 146, that this area saw an increase in participation!]. At the same time this area became the target of repeat invasions on the part of various nomadic groups (the Huns and many others)" (Dolukhanov 1996, 165-67). The nomads established an overlordship over the Slavs and imposed a harsh taxation on their agricultural resources." ... "In the process, once Slavs had "gained substanial political and military experience in their dealings with their warlike nomadic assailants, [they] emerged as a dominant force and established a new socio-political network in the entire area of central and southeastern Europe... One may suggest that economic power stood at the bottom of this newly emerged Slavic socio-political network. An extensive exchange of goods and communication, as in all similar cases, bound together various groups involved in this sociopolitical network. The Slavic languages functioned as a common information medium (Dolukhanov 1996, 165-67).
This scenario is less than satisfactory for several reasons. Forest tribes did not carry on intensive trade with eachother because they produced the same or similar kinds of products. Their natural trade partners were areas of high civilization -- which would not promote cohesion among these tribes (witness Celts and Germans). That their language functioned as a "common information medium" for groups of impoverished swineherds fleeing the nomads also hardly matters. Its spread is much more easily explained by their numerical superiority, the low density of population in the areas where they expanded, and the lack of a strong imperial power." ... "Perhaps all one can say about the early Slavs is that their roots go all the way back to the Zarubintsy culture (whether its carriers were originally Slavs or not) and the Cheriniakovo complex, as well as a substantial scythian influence." ... "The Huns 'opened' Europe to the Slavs, although it is possible that some Slavs had arrived on the Hungarian plain as unwilling Sarmatian auxiluaries a century earlier (Ammianus Marcellinus; Zasterove 1966, in Gimbutas 1971, 98, n.1).
|
Geary in Chapter 5, page 145-146 says that Slavs did conquer and absorb populations in the Balkans, but that this was a disorganized and decentralized process, or one that even involved foreign leadership (notably Avar).
"Gradually, across the seventh century, Slavic warrior-settlers moved across the Danube and into the Balkans. The chronology is unclear and necessarily so. The process was so decentralized and fluid that it could hardly be dated or documented. Individual rehearsals at the hands of Byzabtine counteroffensives could not stop such a widespread process." ... "When large-scale hierarchical organization of Slavic groups did take place, it was almost inevitably done from outside. These might be Germanic or Central Asian leaders, whose model of ethnogenesis provided the possibility of greater concentration of power and greater subordination of individuals and groups. Fundamental to this process were the Avars."
It does not say anything about a Slavic dominant elite diaspora conquering anyone. All it says is on page 20:
The Slav way of life again represents a model complimentary to that of the Avars and Bulgarians. Slav traditions, language, and culture shaped, or at least influenced, innumerable local and regional communities: a surprising similarity that developed without any central institution to promote it. For the theory of ethnicity this constitutes an important example: should we spesk of one Slav ethnos (and we have reason to believe a certain consience of Slavic identity existed)? Apparently ethnicity operated on at least two levels: the "common Slavic" identity, and the identity of single Slavic groups, tribes, or peoples of different sizes that gradually developed, very often taking their name from the territory they lived in. These regional ethnogeneses inspired by Slavic tradition incorpororated considerable remnants of Roman or Germanic population ready enough to give up ethnic identities that had lost their cohesion."
I think this paragraph needs expanding to include more complex analayses about the ways Slavic languages spread according to different regions. - Hunan201p ( talk) 16:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
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The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
It is requested that a map or maps be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Wikipedians in Europe may be able to help! |
A fact from Early Slavs appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 3 March 2009, and was viewed approximately 3,039 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
On 6 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Ancient Slavs. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
I found that is the wish of all Slavs, a bronze age culture. What for a absurd wikipedia article. really competent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:46:D73:23B:78C1:78E4:A9FD:4731 ( talk) 18:19, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
I synchronized the previous date with that in the special article, where it is backed up with sources. HJJHolm ( talk) 15:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
If they were polytheistic, they certainly had a concept of gods. However, as they weren't Christian, they couldn't have had a concept of "God" (I presume capital G here is meant to refer to Yahweh despite the link to god), weak or otherwise. Is this supposed to mean they had a weak concept of a supreme god? ("Weak concept" could also use some more context.) 93.136.15.96 ( talk) 00:47, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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These two sentences seem to contradict each other: "Although the former common language (known as Proto- or Common Slavic) is not attested in written sources, it can be reconstructed by studying its daughter languages.[25][26] The similarities among the daughter languages indicate that Common Slavic was spoken during recorded history, with its division into daughter languages beginning in the 9th century AD.[24][25]"
I cannot see how these two claims can be simultaneously true.
81.175.244.139 ( talk) 16:47, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
In the Linguistics section, some of the proto-Slavic words are given in Cyrillic script, others in Latin. In fact, the first two examples are "svekry" and "zъly".
Actually, there seem to be not two scripts, but three. What is *šelmъ? How is it pronounced? Am I supposed to recognize it well enough to be able to see that it's an obvious Germanic loanword? I think I've seen Czech linguists use something like this—basically Czech Latin, but with extra vowels borrowed from Polish Latin and from Cyrillic (and maybe a couple of Latin-based but IPA-invented forms?). But I have no idea what it's called or how to search for it, so, even if I'm right, that doesn't do any good.
Anyway, I think the article needs to standardize on one of the three. And if it's the third, it needs a note saying what this notation is called and where to look up the details. (And ideally, it should be whatever's used in Wikipedia's other articles related to proto-Slavic language.) -- 173.228.85.220 ( talk) 09:40, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi Jim1138, just added an image of a Sclaveni from the Otto's Gospel Book, which shows a depiction of an early Slav, the appearance is not what in the modern sense we would call 'Ginger', bright red hair with pale complexion, but 'Auburn' as seen in this picture [1]. But, yes Auburn is a sub-category of Red hair, though Ginger is more associated with Norther Europe while Auburn with Eastern Europe and Asia. -- E-960 ( talk) 09:04, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Early Slavs. Krakkos ( talk) 11:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:11, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 17:45, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Early Slavs → Ancient Slavs – WP:COMMONNAME, more used. See plain google search, google scholars etc. Heanor ( talk) 13:53, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
River Neman - Southern Slavs till this day use that word for monster.Maybe it is Balto-Slavic,or Slavo-Baltic,but most certainly not only Baltic. I have noticed that the general tendention on Wikipedia is to depict Slavs as lesser ones and that is really appalling practice. For example,today's Germany is full of Slavic toponyms,but in each article it is said that Slavs adopted Germanic culture,language,etc.Could it be the other way around?Maybe,in the real world,but on anti-Slavic Wikipedia surely not. 178.222.77.49 ( talk) 06:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Curta, Florin (2001). "Elites and group identity north of the Danube frontier: the archaeological evidence". The Making of the Slavs. History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region. Cambridge University Press. pp. 227–310. ISBN 9780511496295.
{{ cite book}}
: no-break space character in|title=
at position 18 ( help)
Numulunj pilgae ( talk) 07:47, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Hi E-960. i added a quote to warfare from ibn rusta's writings, but then you removed it. I think it would be a good idea to keep it though as it gives good historical backup, mentioning weapons used, leadership, armour and the absence of cavalry. :) besides, other articles have similar quotes in them so it makes sense for this one too. there were other ancient quotes regarding slavs warfare but this one seems the least biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe Flats 123 ( talk • contribs) 18:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Miki Filigranski, why are you inserting a seconday/minority point into the Origins section, which should only contian the universally accepted views on the origins of the Slavs. There are also minority views that the germanic Suebi (Souobenoi/Sovobenoi, Suobeni, Suoweni), were at least partily Slavs, but the Origins section is not the place to present it. I am familiar with the theory that some Slavs mixed with Sarmatian tribes and I think this is a legitimate view. However, the text you added makes it sound like Slavs are Iranian, and came for central Asia, in fact the the overwhelming majority of scholars to belive that the Slavs originated Polesia. Even the source you citied states that "we can easily imagie that some East Proto-Slavic tribes, or one particular tribe, in a close alliance with the nomadic and belligerant Alanians or under their hegemony accepted their life-style and got involved in their migrations in this case east of the Volga River. E-960 ( talk) 19:26, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
User:Joe Flats 123, I've made a revert, please explain removal of sourced information. Miki Filigranski ( talk) 08:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Ethnogenesis: "One of the theories used to explain language replacement is that a dominant Slavic elite diaspora managed to spread, conquer and slavicize various communities.[115][116][117][118]"
Fails verification. Full book available here. Renfrew doesn't say anything about Slavs. These pages are a basic primer about the linguistic concept of elite dominance.
Page available here.
It does not exactly say what is implied in-Wiki, as Dolukhanov is saying that Slavic spread through cultural diffusion after migrations related to climate change and nomad aggressors, rather than Slavic elite dominance. As a secondary source, Bell-Fialkoff also offers criticism of this view:
From "The Role of Migration in the History of the Eurasian Steppe Sedentary Civilization", pp. 139-140 ( link):
Extended content
|
---|
"Dolukhanov suggests the following scenario for the earliest phase of Slavic migation in the fifth and sixth centuries: "The increasing aridity of the climate in the forest steppe zone caused a considerable decline of agricultural productivity in that area [but he also writes, on page 146, that this area saw an increase in participation!]. At the same time this area became the target of repeat invasions on the part of various nomadic groups (the Huns and many others)" (Dolukhanov 1996, 165-67). The nomads established an overlordship over the Slavs and imposed a harsh taxation on their agricultural resources." ... "In the process, once Slavs had "gained substanial political and military experience in their dealings with their warlike nomadic assailants, [they] emerged as a dominant force and established a new socio-political network in the entire area of central and southeastern Europe... One may suggest that economic power stood at the bottom of this newly emerged Slavic socio-political network. An extensive exchange of goods and communication, as in all similar cases, bound together various groups involved in this sociopolitical network. The Slavic languages functioned as a common information medium (Dolukhanov 1996, 165-67).
This scenario is less than satisfactory for several reasons. Forest tribes did not carry on intensive trade with eachother because they produced the same or similar kinds of products. Their natural trade partners were areas of high civilization -- which would not promote cohesion among these tribes (witness Celts and Germans). That their language functioned as a "common information medium" for groups of impoverished swineherds fleeing the nomads also hardly matters. Its spread is much more easily explained by their numerical superiority, the low density of population in the areas where they expanded, and the lack of a strong imperial power." ... "Perhaps all one can say about the early Slavs is that their roots go all the way back to the Zarubintsy culture (whether its carriers were originally Slavs or not) and the Cheriniakovo complex, as well as a substantial scythian influence." ... "The Huns 'opened' Europe to the Slavs, although it is possible that some Slavs had arrived on the Hungarian plain as unwilling Sarmatian auxiluaries a century earlier (Ammianus Marcellinus; Zasterove 1966, in Gimbutas 1971, 98, n.1).
|
Geary in Chapter 5, page 145-146 says that Slavs did conquer and absorb populations in the Balkans, but that this was a disorganized and decentralized process, or one that even involved foreign leadership (notably Avar).
"Gradually, across the seventh century, Slavic warrior-settlers moved across the Danube and into the Balkans. The chronology is unclear and necessarily so. The process was so decentralized and fluid that it could hardly be dated or documented. Individual rehearsals at the hands of Byzabtine counteroffensives could not stop such a widespread process." ... "When large-scale hierarchical organization of Slavic groups did take place, it was almost inevitably done from outside. These might be Germanic or Central Asian leaders, whose model of ethnogenesis provided the possibility of greater concentration of power and greater subordination of individuals and groups. Fundamental to this process were the Avars."
It does not say anything about a Slavic dominant elite diaspora conquering anyone. All it says is on page 20:
The Slav way of life again represents a model complimentary to that of the Avars and Bulgarians. Slav traditions, language, and culture shaped, or at least influenced, innumerable local and regional communities: a surprising similarity that developed without any central institution to promote it. For the theory of ethnicity this constitutes an important example: should we spesk of one Slav ethnos (and we have reason to believe a certain consience of Slavic identity existed)? Apparently ethnicity operated on at least two levels: the "common Slavic" identity, and the identity of single Slavic groups, tribes, or peoples of different sizes that gradually developed, very often taking their name from the territory they lived in. These regional ethnogeneses inspired by Slavic tradition incorpororated considerable remnants of Roman or Germanic population ready enough to give up ethnic identities that had lost their cohesion."
I think this paragraph needs expanding to include more complex analayses about the ways Slavic languages spread according to different regions. - Hunan201p ( talk) 16:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)