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I think this article is, at least 90% of it, ridiculous.
The Dutch expect eye contact while speaking with someone. Looking away or staring at the ground is considered impolite and may be perceived as lying.
Really, is this not just ridiculous? The above statement holds true for anybody. It's human communication. -- 80.216.238.215 ( talk) 20:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
We should add the bit about how the Dutch don't do irony. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.35.24 ( talk) 00:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
dudes dont take things too seriously — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.63.60.200 ( talk) 00:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This article makes a complete mockery of the concept of an encyclopaedia. I despair. 145.108.180.32 ( talk) 15:16, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I've edited the language paragraph which has been edited in the past before. Dutchmen are generally outstandingly well in speaking other languages, and there is no other country in the world which comes close to the Dutch system of education regarding foreign languages. The fact that the majority of French barely speak a word of English, and the English generally don't know a word of French either, while Dutchmen speak English very well and French fairly good as well, and even German reasonably well. As mentioned, both our mother language Dutch, and the foreign language English are obligatory subjects at all levels of high school. French is obligatory in the first 2 years of the lowest level of high school and 3 years at the moderate and high levels of high school education. German is obligatory in the second year of the lowest level of high school, and from the second till the third year at the moderate and high levels of high school education and either French or German(the pupil can choose which one of the two subjects he/she wants to choose)is obligatory in the fourth year too. Latin and Greek are obligatory in the first few years of VWO/Gymnasium, the two highest levels of high school education. Spanish, Italian and sometimes even Chinese can be chosen as subject instead of other subjects as well, and some primary schools are even starting to teach Chinese, and English is being taught in the last few years of primary school for quite some time now. I can say with certainty there is not country in the world with an educational system which teaches so many languages and so well. Psych0-007 ( talk) 03:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Scandanavians and Germans perform far better in IELTS tests than do the Dutch. Anyone who lives or stays in the Netherlands for a protracted period will realise that the Dutch are not as fluent as they think in foreign languages. I have a child in primary school in the Netherlands, and can say without hesitation that it does not excel at teaching foreign languages at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.176.117.163 ( talk) 07:46, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Almost 2/3 of the Dutch live either in North or South Holland, the region provides for half of the Dutch economy and the Dutch ministry of foreign affairs and board of tourism uses Holland instead of the Netherlands when advertising for the country abroad ( http://www.holland.com), except for a handful of provincials, no one finds it insulting to be called a 'Hollander'.
Ummm.... While agree I have never heard of someone being insulted at being called a Hollander, not even half of the dutch live in north & south Holland... http://www.nidi.knaw.nl/nl/atlas/size/tabsize/
Besides you being arrogant, you're also wrong. About 38% of the Dutch population lives in Holland. And being offended is maybe a big word, but it is quite odd to call someone from Friesland, Limburg or Groningen a 'Hollander'.
I live in the east, and while I personally do not take offence if people refer to the entire country as Holland (if they couldn't know) but I know heaps of people who will be seriously hurt if you call them Hollanders. They are definately not. This has mainly to do with the (possibly perceived) arrogance of the "real" Hollanders. Just to be on the safe side just call everything the Netherlands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.90.42.250 ( talk) 18:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
It is the same by saying that the Scots are English!, Only if the Dutch football team plays, it's Holland... Scubafish ( talk) 09:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The Dutch language is extremely hard to pronounce and most Dutch people will perceive a foreigner trying to speak Dutch as someone who's having great difficulties trying to express him or herself.
As far as I can tell we dutch consider it a great effort and do appreciate it a lot if a foreigner tries to speak dutch. Changed the paraghraph accordingly. . . . s k i n 15:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The Dutch language is easy enough to pronounce... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.35.24 ( talk) 00:13, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes it is. It is not a difficult language to learn. It is often painful to hear Dutch people speaking English, but we are polite enough to tolerate your efforts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.176.117.163 ( talk) 07:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The section "The people" describes tendencies as absolutes. It is highly biased. Brammen 13:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree;
Dutch society is egalitarian; the government tries to keep differences in income to a minumum. A situation like in the US is unknown. Tolerance is also present as Euthansia, Prostitution and Gay marriage are legal. The Dutch are modern, no denying that, they have access to most if not all technical innovations, at the moment there are more cell phones than people. Self reliant is also correct, Dutch society is not based on entire families taking care of each other eveyone is expected to take care of his or her own bussines as much as one can. Entrepreneurial; many international countries are Dutch or partly Dutch. Heineken, Shell and Phillips are good examples. They value education. Education is considered extremely important, there are systems to help drop outs and education is obliged till you're 17. hard work, ambition and ability speaks for itself. The Dutch have an aversion to the nonessential also commonly known, everything needs to have a purpose. Ostentatious behaviour is to be avoided, generally the protestant culture there but also true. Accumulating money is fine, but spending money is considered something of a vice and highly associated with being a show-off. (kind of the same) A high style is considered wasteful and suspect(kind of the same). The Dutch are very proud of their cultural heritage, rich history in art and music and involvement in international affairs. no denying that, I'd say that goes for every people. Rex 13:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Rich history in art I can understand, but music? Colmfinito 22:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
"Ostentatious behaviour is to be avoided, generally the protestant culture there but also true. Accumulating money is fine, but spending money is considered something of a vice and highly associated with being a show-off. (kind of the same) A high style is considered wasteful and suspect(kind of the same)." I don't think any of the above is true anymore for the younger generation.
(the previous is not mine) showing off even in younger people isn't considered to be accepted, show-offs still are people who show the how little they have, most youth find someone with overly expensive jewelry and clothing laughable "pimping is considered a novelty to most".
The whole paragraph about People should be erased, as it doesn't reflect any custom or etiquette. It is biased, and Rex' argumentation only encourage my opinion. Let me make myself clear.
One cannot argue that a society is modern by its access to technology (specially by the ratio cellphones by inhabitant). Unless it is explained that by modern one understands accessibility to technology. But few people will agree with that definition. Modernism is a term that describe a position towards a broad range of human activities. I am sure there is now days a big group of dutch people more oriented to tradition than to change. Still, mine as well as the affirmation "dutch people are modern" lack of references.
I believe that many dutches will agree that the legalization of prostitution, euthanasia, same sex marriage and marijuana, answers more to pragmatism than to tolerance.
One cannot say that a nation is entrepreneurial because it has a brewery, a company that produces electronic goods and a bi-national petrol company. Or else in the same track of ideas, every single industrialised nation is then modern and entrepreneurial, and so there is no point in highlighting it.
A dutch person works 35 hours per week, which put them number one worldwide as the people that work the less. So how can it be said here that a common value in the dutch nation is hard work.
The definition of ability is somehow positive in itself. So, again, who doesn't value ability?
If the paragraph "People" wants to be kept, then "Aversion to the nonessential" should be replaced by pragmatic.
"Accumulating money is fine, but spending money is considered something of a vice and highly associated with being a show-off by some people", is this the definition of miser? (One who takes pleasure in the mere possession of cash but has no intention of putting it to any use). So this should be either avoided or replaced by something like austere or frugal. These words would be more descriptive.
Nevertheless, it should be noted that Dutch architecture now days is rather flamboyant or eccentric. It rarely follows pragmatism solely. Which contradicts the sentence "A high style is considered wasteful and suspect".
Finally, I don't believe many Dutches would be proud of their "involvement in international affairs".
The lack of support shown by the other European nations during the decolonisation towards the Netherlands, comes from the fact that the Netherlands is a dwarf when it comes to diplomatic issues. In my own opinion, if a country like United States, France or UK, legalizes drugs, abortion, same sex marriage or euthanasia, it would start to be considered as a humanitarian or a universal cause, as oppose to a trait of "tolerance". That is because of their true involvement in international affairs and diplomatic importance. So I have to disagree in this point with the article. Again, this is only my humble opinion.
As biased as this paragraph, one could replace it then with:
Dutch people are austere, parochial and pragmatic.
But I would also disagree with such a paragraph, and would see no place for it in this article.
Camilo Sanabria 20:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Rex, the point is that, since this article is mostly opinionated it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Do you mean to tell me that all Dutch people are tolerant? What about the man who ran for Prime Minister (I forgot his name) who wanted to end immigration to the Netherlands? Does that sound tolerant? Stereotyping an entire population is ridiculous, and does not belong on Wikipedia. The article "People" should be edited drastically or erased. 69.243.222.83 19:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC) The notion of Dutch tolerance is ridiculous. Nobody in Indonesia views Dutch people as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.176.117.163 ( talk) 07:52, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I've started to write about Dutch driving skills. Might be something, might be not. Well... I'll see if the sentence will survive the next few weeks... :-) SietskeEN 19:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I just removed this paragraph:
I think it's rather tricky to base a statement like this on the views of two politicians - the article is about the Dutch people, not Dutch politicians, and even though some of these politicians can be rather vocal, they do not represent the majority of the Dutch society. Therefore, I removed the paragragh. It might be true that Dutch people in general are becoming less tolerant, but there'd be a need for other sources to back up a statement like that. -- Joanne B 12:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Remove this paragraph altogheter: apart from it being biased, it is not a relevant part in an article discussing "Dutch customs and etiquette". Most of it discusses recent events that carry no relevance for the topic. Apart from that, the content of this entire article seems unverifiable.
References
Everything under "heerlijk" is unacceptable, that made me laugh. If I said, "ja het was lekker" then people assume that what I ate was sub standard?
it's kinda how you pronounce it. but restaurants always want feedback if something wasn't great
Markthemac 04:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
"The Netherlands have a very high standard of education"
not anymore. unless compared to america, we really dont, we just focus too much on language (because of our history of trade). we do really bad on scientific subjects· Lygophile has spoken 07:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
sorry the Netherlands according to IQ is highly educated, so still true. http://marcsmessages.typepad.com/mm/2006/03/dutch_most_inte.html Markthemac 17:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Be serious Markthemac, you cannot support your opinion with that reference (please read the comments concerning Richard Lynn studies, e.g.
http://blog.handelsblatt.de/dezentrale/eintrag.php?id=67).
After compulsory education many Dutches stop their participation in education (more than 35% of them) before completing two more years:
http://www.eurydice.org/portal/page/portal/Eurydice/FigurePage?pubid=052EN&figCode=052C10
Similarly the number of students following higher education compared to the number of students/pupils in the country is quite low compared with other European countries:
http://www.eurydice.org/portal/page/portal/Eurydice/FigurePage?pubid=052EN&figCode=052C13
So, there is no point in highlighting that Dutch people "value education". For, based on the figures Dutches don't value education more than others, and secondly, in which country education is not valued?
On the other hand, the comment about the "very high standard of education" definitely lacks of serious references (as the rest of the affirmations in this articles). For example, PISA 2003 results may help for this. But still, the use of "very high" is suspicious. First, there is no (as far as I know) international education ranking system where The Netherlands do top 5. Secondly,
Canada, Germany, France, Japan and the United States, each has a huge amount of scholarly publications (much more than the Netherlands do) and you will not hear from them any comment about their "very high standard of education". Actually they are very critical about their standards.
Camilo Sanabria 05:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Quality education The Netherlands is a country well known to people worldwide, not only because of its beautiful tulips or because of the Orange Football Club, offering so many moments of wonderful football during the world cup competitions. Many students have experienced that the Netherlands is also a reliable address for students worldwide, due to its high quality of education. Every year there are thousands students from all over the world coming to study in the Netherlands.
Hej Buster,
you keep removing the remark that in Dutch jokes Belgians are often depicted as stupid. While this is biased in itself, the practice is a fact (just like the fact that in Belgian jokes the Dutch are often depicted as being greedy and moneygrubbing). If you insist to remove the fact that Belgians are depicted as stupid you should remove the remark on jokes on Germans as well. No more are "the Germans" arrogant as "the Belgians" are stupid. It seems you are a bit biased yourself (perhaps this has to do with you Belgian ancestry?).
Richard 13:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I am galled. Not only by the comment but by your stubborn persistence that it remain. It is clearly offensive to at least 10 million people and should not be presented as mainstream Netherlandic thought. Wikipedia relies on the printed word and editors that give their opinions. But this is offensive, nothing else. The only possible rationale for inclusion is continued prejudice. You crassly disregard common standards with this unfortunate statement. Its educational value is Nil...Nada...Nothing. You can surround it with subtle verbs like percieved and dipicted but this does not change a thing. I am not pushing my POV---I am merely protecting it. I will continue to correct this type of slander...here and elsewhere. We are creating a new encyclopedia for the Ages. Not the Dark Ages, tho!--Buster7 (talk) 22:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Three things. First: this discussion is rather hard to follow since half the comments are on another talk page. I think they should best be merged (and, maybe, moved to the talk page of the article). Second: the remark on how Belgians are treated in Dutch jokes (is this an acceptable way of putting it?) was not added by me but by Rex Germanus on January 1st 2007 - well over a year ago. Last: I'm sorry you feel this way. It is not and never has been my intention to hurt your (or anyone's) feelings. Mentioning the practice does not mean I advocate it. Richard 14:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardw nl (talk • contribs)
Retrieved from User talk:Buster7 with slight modifications.
Would anyone have a problem if I change the reference in the Humor section about Germans and intelligence to read...."stupid foreigners." Its the same troubling issue as before and my request to change is also the same.-- Buster7 ( talk) 21:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Isn't this just laughable? Do some people really think this applies just to the Dutch, and not pretty much to every polite person living in this world? ROFL. -- Fertuno ( talk) 15:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
niceties gets you nowhere in business, and we've been at it much longer than anyone else. Markthemac ( talk) 23:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
There is a link on this page toward a page that existed on my old website, " http://www.geocities.com/stevenedw/dutchcustoms.html." I have moved my site, and that page is now at http://www.stevenroyedwards.com/dutchcustoms.html. I do not want to change the link myself, because I'm concerned about any appearance of conflict-of-interest. If anybody else feels motivated to do so, and feels that the page still merits linkage, I'd appreciate the help. Stevenroyedwards ( talk) 18:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
this is wrong: The Dutch value privacy and seldom start interactions with strangers. sit in a dutch train and everybody speaks to you (can we remove that?) Markthemac ( talk) 05:15, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The article states: Indicators are used rather much, often switched on right before changing lanes. First: "used rather much" is improper English. But rather than improve this sentence, it should be removed as nonsensical. Switching on your indicators right before changing lanes is universally normal. When else would you switch them on? Before "right before"? No. Once you decide to switch lanes you indicate your desire. That's true in the Netherlands as well as everywhere else. Now, if the Dutch did NOT use their turn/changing lanes indicator, that would be worth mentioning. The sentence should be removed. ``` Buster Seven Talk 11:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Why this article exists completely confuses me in an encyclopaedic sense. But what really confuses me is its content, not only is most of it generally assertion, it's nothing remotely useful or of any value. It should probably be deleted as it's not useful and may be deemed offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NamedRedshirt ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Have to agree, it came up near the top on a search for Dutch marriage customs, and contained no real information on that sunject. Seems to be more a place for Dutch peeps to oversell themselvles and whinging expats to have a go at them. There is no equivilent entry for British customs and etiquette. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.250.240.130 ( talk) 09:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Do the Dutch bow/curtsy to members of the Royal Family ? I noticed that, when Queen Beatrix was still in the throne, Princess Máxima for example always curtsied to foreign kings/queens, but I don't know if people in the Netherlands curtsy to her. 161.24.19.112 ( talk) 20:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
I know there's already a discussion about this on the same page, but it is very messy and over three and a half years old. So here's a new one to start out fresh.
For once and for all: Dutch people often make jokes about Belgians revolving around their alleged stupidity. So do the Poles, they joke about the Czechians. Norwegians make fun of Swedes. Etcetera. According to this site ( http://www.moppen.nl/?catID=9), which is a large collection of Dutch jokes, about 8 percent of Dutch jokes are about Belgians.
There's no point in discussing whether it's offensive to people. Should we remove the Ku Klux Klan page so we don't offend black people? Should we remove Mein Kampf so we don't offend the Jews? Wikipedia describes, it doesn't prescribe. It is a fact that these jokes are happening, and whether they are offensive or not is an entirely different discussion. The jokes exist, and you can't have an article about Dutch humour without it. -- Harmenator ( talk) 22:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Now, I realize that I may have some conflict of interest, being Dutch myself, but with the kind of claims this article makes, some references really are necessary. To highlight a couple of gems:
I count twelve references. Eight are traffic-related. One has to do with surnames. That leaves all of three sources for the remainder of the article. Also, one of them - the one used for part of the humour section - is used to support statements like "At the end of the 17th century the Dutch lost their sense of humor", while the source rather specifically says that according to one specific historian, this is the case. The other remaining sources (source, really), The UnDutchables, is rather well-known for being part-serious, part-humorous and at some points exaggerated. If I remember correctly from when I read it, which is admittedly a few years ago, the foreword even acknowledges this. That's not to say it can't be used, but to have it as basically the sole reference to hold up 50+% of the article, no.
I can go on for a while, but I'd rather not. What it boils down to is that in its current state, this page is better off being moved to Unsourced stereotypes and generalizations of Dutch customs and etiquette. And yes, I do intend to work on this article as well and see if I can't whip it into shape some, but with the amount of rewriting this needs and the reverting back-and-forth that went on earlier today, I felt I was better off making a talkpage post first. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 15:16, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Considering that nearly all edits since the 21st were either by a sockmaster and his puppets (see here) or reverts of their edits, I have reverted the article back to the version of the 21st before Robedia's appearance.
This happens to be the version without "*Traffic on motorways is dense and moderately fast, clarification needed often above the speed limit [1]", pretty much the only point in the article that editors seemed to be in disagreement over before Robedia's appearance.
I am not necessarily opposed to adding it back in in some form. However, I do believe the wording needs to be more clear on both the point of density (do we have a definition for dense, or at least actual numbers, or a source calling traffic on motorways in the Netherlands dense?) and the point of moderately fast (same as with dense. Both are pretty arbitrary). Furthermore, the site used as reference does not support the claim as a whole. It merely supports that it happens that people drive well above the speed limit (which happens in pretty much any country which both has frequent traffic and speed limits, I'd dare guess) and does nothing to support the use of the word often, which is again rather arbitrary. Because what is often to one person is not often to another, I feel that if we use it here, we ought to source it well, such as a source that outright states "often", "commonly", "frequently" or another synonym. All in all, I feel that the sentence needs better sourcing and perhaps a slight rewrite so that it becomes clear to the reader what is considered dense, moderately fast and often. Now that the disruptive editor is gone, however, I am certain that we can discuss this and reach consensus and/or a compromise. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 01:21, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
References
Basic to whom?
The part about humor here only talks about Dutch humor up until the 1960s, that's not etiquette, that's history. It gives the impression that the Dutch are still the same as in the 60s, and won't appreciate humor, which is untrue. It is just one of the issues with this short and inconcise article. This is not something worthy of the name encylopedic. ~~Martijn204~~
210.49.196.162 ( talk) 01:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
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I think this article is, at least 90% of it, ridiculous.
The Dutch expect eye contact while speaking with someone. Looking away or staring at the ground is considered impolite and may be perceived as lying.
Really, is this not just ridiculous? The above statement holds true for anybody. It's human communication. -- 80.216.238.215 ( talk) 20:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
We should add the bit about how the Dutch don't do irony. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.35.24 ( talk) 00:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
dudes dont take things too seriously — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.63.60.200 ( talk) 00:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This article makes a complete mockery of the concept of an encyclopaedia. I despair. 145.108.180.32 ( talk) 15:16, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I've edited the language paragraph which has been edited in the past before. Dutchmen are generally outstandingly well in speaking other languages, and there is no other country in the world which comes close to the Dutch system of education regarding foreign languages. The fact that the majority of French barely speak a word of English, and the English generally don't know a word of French either, while Dutchmen speak English very well and French fairly good as well, and even German reasonably well. As mentioned, both our mother language Dutch, and the foreign language English are obligatory subjects at all levels of high school. French is obligatory in the first 2 years of the lowest level of high school and 3 years at the moderate and high levels of high school education. German is obligatory in the second year of the lowest level of high school, and from the second till the third year at the moderate and high levels of high school education and either French or German(the pupil can choose which one of the two subjects he/she wants to choose)is obligatory in the fourth year too. Latin and Greek are obligatory in the first few years of VWO/Gymnasium, the two highest levels of high school education. Spanish, Italian and sometimes even Chinese can be chosen as subject instead of other subjects as well, and some primary schools are even starting to teach Chinese, and English is being taught in the last few years of primary school for quite some time now. I can say with certainty there is not country in the world with an educational system which teaches so many languages and so well. Psych0-007 ( talk) 03:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Scandanavians and Germans perform far better in IELTS tests than do the Dutch. Anyone who lives or stays in the Netherlands for a protracted period will realise that the Dutch are not as fluent as they think in foreign languages. I have a child in primary school in the Netherlands, and can say without hesitation that it does not excel at teaching foreign languages at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.176.117.163 ( talk) 07:46, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Almost 2/3 of the Dutch live either in North or South Holland, the region provides for half of the Dutch economy and the Dutch ministry of foreign affairs and board of tourism uses Holland instead of the Netherlands when advertising for the country abroad ( http://www.holland.com), except for a handful of provincials, no one finds it insulting to be called a 'Hollander'.
Ummm.... While agree I have never heard of someone being insulted at being called a Hollander, not even half of the dutch live in north & south Holland... http://www.nidi.knaw.nl/nl/atlas/size/tabsize/
Besides you being arrogant, you're also wrong. About 38% of the Dutch population lives in Holland. And being offended is maybe a big word, but it is quite odd to call someone from Friesland, Limburg or Groningen a 'Hollander'.
I live in the east, and while I personally do not take offence if people refer to the entire country as Holland (if they couldn't know) but I know heaps of people who will be seriously hurt if you call them Hollanders. They are definately not. This has mainly to do with the (possibly perceived) arrogance of the "real" Hollanders. Just to be on the safe side just call everything the Netherlands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.90.42.250 ( talk) 18:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
It is the same by saying that the Scots are English!, Only if the Dutch football team plays, it's Holland... Scubafish ( talk) 09:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The Dutch language is extremely hard to pronounce and most Dutch people will perceive a foreigner trying to speak Dutch as someone who's having great difficulties trying to express him or herself.
As far as I can tell we dutch consider it a great effort and do appreciate it a lot if a foreigner tries to speak dutch. Changed the paraghraph accordingly. . . . s k i n 15:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The Dutch language is easy enough to pronounce... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.35.24 ( talk) 00:13, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes it is. It is not a difficult language to learn. It is often painful to hear Dutch people speaking English, but we are polite enough to tolerate your efforts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.176.117.163 ( talk) 07:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The section "The people" describes tendencies as absolutes. It is highly biased. Brammen 13:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree;
Dutch society is egalitarian; the government tries to keep differences in income to a minumum. A situation like in the US is unknown. Tolerance is also present as Euthansia, Prostitution and Gay marriage are legal. The Dutch are modern, no denying that, they have access to most if not all technical innovations, at the moment there are more cell phones than people. Self reliant is also correct, Dutch society is not based on entire families taking care of each other eveyone is expected to take care of his or her own bussines as much as one can. Entrepreneurial; many international countries are Dutch or partly Dutch. Heineken, Shell and Phillips are good examples. They value education. Education is considered extremely important, there are systems to help drop outs and education is obliged till you're 17. hard work, ambition and ability speaks for itself. The Dutch have an aversion to the nonessential also commonly known, everything needs to have a purpose. Ostentatious behaviour is to be avoided, generally the protestant culture there but also true. Accumulating money is fine, but spending money is considered something of a vice and highly associated with being a show-off. (kind of the same) A high style is considered wasteful and suspect(kind of the same). The Dutch are very proud of their cultural heritage, rich history in art and music and involvement in international affairs. no denying that, I'd say that goes for every people. Rex 13:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Rich history in art I can understand, but music? Colmfinito 22:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
"Ostentatious behaviour is to be avoided, generally the protestant culture there but also true. Accumulating money is fine, but spending money is considered something of a vice and highly associated with being a show-off. (kind of the same) A high style is considered wasteful and suspect(kind of the same)." I don't think any of the above is true anymore for the younger generation.
(the previous is not mine) showing off even in younger people isn't considered to be accepted, show-offs still are people who show the how little they have, most youth find someone with overly expensive jewelry and clothing laughable "pimping is considered a novelty to most".
The whole paragraph about People should be erased, as it doesn't reflect any custom or etiquette. It is biased, and Rex' argumentation only encourage my opinion. Let me make myself clear.
One cannot argue that a society is modern by its access to technology (specially by the ratio cellphones by inhabitant). Unless it is explained that by modern one understands accessibility to technology. But few people will agree with that definition. Modernism is a term that describe a position towards a broad range of human activities. I am sure there is now days a big group of dutch people more oriented to tradition than to change. Still, mine as well as the affirmation "dutch people are modern" lack of references.
I believe that many dutches will agree that the legalization of prostitution, euthanasia, same sex marriage and marijuana, answers more to pragmatism than to tolerance.
One cannot say that a nation is entrepreneurial because it has a brewery, a company that produces electronic goods and a bi-national petrol company. Or else in the same track of ideas, every single industrialised nation is then modern and entrepreneurial, and so there is no point in highlighting it.
A dutch person works 35 hours per week, which put them number one worldwide as the people that work the less. So how can it be said here that a common value in the dutch nation is hard work.
The definition of ability is somehow positive in itself. So, again, who doesn't value ability?
If the paragraph "People" wants to be kept, then "Aversion to the nonessential" should be replaced by pragmatic.
"Accumulating money is fine, but spending money is considered something of a vice and highly associated with being a show-off by some people", is this the definition of miser? (One who takes pleasure in the mere possession of cash but has no intention of putting it to any use). So this should be either avoided or replaced by something like austere or frugal. These words would be more descriptive.
Nevertheless, it should be noted that Dutch architecture now days is rather flamboyant or eccentric. It rarely follows pragmatism solely. Which contradicts the sentence "A high style is considered wasteful and suspect".
Finally, I don't believe many Dutches would be proud of their "involvement in international affairs".
The lack of support shown by the other European nations during the decolonisation towards the Netherlands, comes from the fact that the Netherlands is a dwarf when it comes to diplomatic issues. In my own opinion, if a country like United States, France or UK, legalizes drugs, abortion, same sex marriage or euthanasia, it would start to be considered as a humanitarian or a universal cause, as oppose to a trait of "tolerance". That is because of their true involvement in international affairs and diplomatic importance. So I have to disagree in this point with the article. Again, this is only my humble opinion.
As biased as this paragraph, one could replace it then with:
Dutch people are austere, parochial and pragmatic.
But I would also disagree with such a paragraph, and would see no place for it in this article.
Camilo Sanabria 20:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Rex, the point is that, since this article is mostly opinionated it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Do you mean to tell me that all Dutch people are tolerant? What about the man who ran for Prime Minister (I forgot his name) who wanted to end immigration to the Netherlands? Does that sound tolerant? Stereotyping an entire population is ridiculous, and does not belong on Wikipedia. The article "People" should be edited drastically or erased. 69.243.222.83 19:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC) The notion of Dutch tolerance is ridiculous. Nobody in Indonesia views Dutch people as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.176.117.163 ( talk) 07:52, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I've started to write about Dutch driving skills. Might be something, might be not. Well... I'll see if the sentence will survive the next few weeks... :-) SietskeEN 19:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I just removed this paragraph:
I think it's rather tricky to base a statement like this on the views of two politicians - the article is about the Dutch people, not Dutch politicians, and even though some of these politicians can be rather vocal, they do not represent the majority of the Dutch society. Therefore, I removed the paragragh. It might be true that Dutch people in general are becoming less tolerant, but there'd be a need for other sources to back up a statement like that. -- Joanne B 12:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Remove this paragraph altogheter: apart from it being biased, it is not a relevant part in an article discussing "Dutch customs and etiquette". Most of it discusses recent events that carry no relevance for the topic. Apart from that, the content of this entire article seems unverifiable.
References
Everything under "heerlijk" is unacceptable, that made me laugh. If I said, "ja het was lekker" then people assume that what I ate was sub standard?
it's kinda how you pronounce it. but restaurants always want feedback if something wasn't great
Markthemac 04:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
"The Netherlands have a very high standard of education"
not anymore. unless compared to america, we really dont, we just focus too much on language (because of our history of trade). we do really bad on scientific subjects· Lygophile has spoken 07:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
sorry the Netherlands according to IQ is highly educated, so still true. http://marcsmessages.typepad.com/mm/2006/03/dutch_most_inte.html Markthemac 17:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Be serious Markthemac, you cannot support your opinion with that reference (please read the comments concerning Richard Lynn studies, e.g.
http://blog.handelsblatt.de/dezentrale/eintrag.php?id=67).
After compulsory education many Dutches stop their participation in education (more than 35% of them) before completing two more years:
http://www.eurydice.org/portal/page/portal/Eurydice/FigurePage?pubid=052EN&figCode=052C10
Similarly the number of students following higher education compared to the number of students/pupils in the country is quite low compared with other European countries:
http://www.eurydice.org/portal/page/portal/Eurydice/FigurePage?pubid=052EN&figCode=052C13
So, there is no point in highlighting that Dutch people "value education". For, based on the figures Dutches don't value education more than others, and secondly, in which country education is not valued?
On the other hand, the comment about the "very high standard of education" definitely lacks of serious references (as the rest of the affirmations in this articles). For example, PISA 2003 results may help for this. But still, the use of "very high" is suspicious. First, there is no (as far as I know) international education ranking system where The Netherlands do top 5. Secondly,
Canada, Germany, France, Japan and the United States, each has a huge amount of scholarly publications (much more than the Netherlands do) and you will not hear from them any comment about their "very high standard of education". Actually they are very critical about their standards.
Camilo Sanabria 05:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Quality education The Netherlands is a country well known to people worldwide, not only because of its beautiful tulips or because of the Orange Football Club, offering so many moments of wonderful football during the world cup competitions. Many students have experienced that the Netherlands is also a reliable address for students worldwide, due to its high quality of education. Every year there are thousands students from all over the world coming to study in the Netherlands.
Hej Buster,
you keep removing the remark that in Dutch jokes Belgians are often depicted as stupid. While this is biased in itself, the practice is a fact (just like the fact that in Belgian jokes the Dutch are often depicted as being greedy and moneygrubbing). If you insist to remove the fact that Belgians are depicted as stupid you should remove the remark on jokes on Germans as well. No more are "the Germans" arrogant as "the Belgians" are stupid. It seems you are a bit biased yourself (perhaps this has to do with you Belgian ancestry?).
Richard 13:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I am galled. Not only by the comment but by your stubborn persistence that it remain. It is clearly offensive to at least 10 million people and should not be presented as mainstream Netherlandic thought. Wikipedia relies on the printed word and editors that give their opinions. But this is offensive, nothing else. The only possible rationale for inclusion is continued prejudice. You crassly disregard common standards with this unfortunate statement. Its educational value is Nil...Nada...Nothing. You can surround it with subtle verbs like percieved and dipicted but this does not change a thing. I am not pushing my POV---I am merely protecting it. I will continue to correct this type of slander...here and elsewhere. We are creating a new encyclopedia for the Ages. Not the Dark Ages, tho!--Buster7 (talk) 22:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Three things. First: this discussion is rather hard to follow since half the comments are on another talk page. I think they should best be merged (and, maybe, moved to the talk page of the article). Second: the remark on how Belgians are treated in Dutch jokes (is this an acceptable way of putting it?) was not added by me but by Rex Germanus on January 1st 2007 - well over a year ago. Last: I'm sorry you feel this way. It is not and never has been my intention to hurt your (or anyone's) feelings. Mentioning the practice does not mean I advocate it. Richard 14:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardw nl (talk • contribs)
Retrieved from User talk:Buster7 with slight modifications.
Would anyone have a problem if I change the reference in the Humor section about Germans and intelligence to read...."stupid foreigners." Its the same troubling issue as before and my request to change is also the same.-- Buster7 ( talk) 21:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Isn't this just laughable? Do some people really think this applies just to the Dutch, and not pretty much to every polite person living in this world? ROFL. -- Fertuno ( talk) 15:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
niceties gets you nowhere in business, and we've been at it much longer than anyone else. Markthemac ( talk) 23:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
There is a link on this page toward a page that existed on my old website, " http://www.geocities.com/stevenedw/dutchcustoms.html." I have moved my site, and that page is now at http://www.stevenroyedwards.com/dutchcustoms.html. I do not want to change the link myself, because I'm concerned about any appearance of conflict-of-interest. If anybody else feels motivated to do so, and feels that the page still merits linkage, I'd appreciate the help. Stevenroyedwards ( talk) 18:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
this is wrong: The Dutch value privacy and seldom start interactions with strangers. sit in a dutch train and everybody speaks to you (can we remove that?) Markthemac ( talk) 05:15, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The article states: Indicators are used rather much, often switched on right before changing lanes. First: "used rather much" is improper English. But rather than improve this sentence, it should be removed as nonsensical. Switching on your indicators right before changing lanes is universally normal. When else would you switch them on? Before "right before"? No. Once you decide to switch lanes you indicate your desire. That's true in the Netherlands as well as everywhere else. Now, if the Dutch did NOT use their turn/changing lanes indicator, that would be worth mentioning. The sentence should be removed. ``` Buster Seven Talk 11:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Why this article exists completely confuses me in an encyclopaedic sense. But what really confuses me is its content, not only is most of it generally assertion, it's nothing remotely useful or of any value. It should probably be deleted as it's not useful and may be deemed offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NamedRedshirt ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Have to agree, it came up near the top on a search for Dutch marriage customs, and contained no real information on that sunject. Seems to be more a place for Dutch peeps to oversell themselvles and whinging expats to have a go at them. There is no equivilent entry for British customs and etiquette. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.250.240.130 ( talk) 09:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Do the Dutch bow/curtsy to members of the Royal Family ? I noticed that, when Queen Beatrix was still in the throne, Princess Máxima for example always curtsied to foreign kings/queens, but I don't know if people in the Netherlands curtsy to her. 161.24.19.112 ( talk) 20:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
I know there's already a discussion about this on the same page, but it is very messy and over three and a half years old. So here's a new one to start out fresh.
For once and for all: Dutch people often make jokes about Belgians revolving around their alleged stupidity. So do the Poles, they joke about the Czechians. Norwegians make fun of Swedes. Etcetera. According to this site ( http://www.moppen.nl/?catID=9), which is a large collection of Dutch jokes, about 8 percent of Dutch jokes are about Belgians.
There's no point in discussing whether it's offensive to people. Should we remove the Ku Klux Klan page so we don't offend black people? Should we remove Mein Kampf so we don't offend the Jews? Wikipedia describes, it doesn't prescribe. It is a fact that these jokes are happening, and whether they are offensive or not is an entirely different discussion. The jokes exist, and you can't have an article about Dutch humour without it. -- Harmenator ( talk) 22:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Now, I realize that I may have some conflict of interest, being Dutch myself, but with the kind of claims this article makes, some references really are necessary. To highlight a couple of gems:
I count twelve references. Eight are traffic-related. One has to do with surnames. That leaves all of three sources for the remainder of the article. Also, one of them - the one used for part of the humour section - is used to support statements like "At the end of the 17th century the Dutch lost their sense of humor", while the source rather specifically says that according to one specific historian, this is the case. The other remaining sources (source, really), The UnDutchables, is rather well-known for being part-serious, part-humorous and at some points exaggerated. If I remember correctly from when I read it, which is admittedly a few years ago, the foreword even acknowledges this. That's not to say it can't be used, but to have it as basically the sole reference to hold up 50+% of the article, no.
I can go on for a while, but I'd rather not. What it boils down to is that in its current state, this page is better off being moved to Unsourced stereotypes and generalizations of Dutch customs and etiquette. And yes, I do intend to work on this article as well and see if I can't whip it into shape some, but with the amount of rewriting this needs and the reverting back-and-forth that went on earlier today, I felt I was better off making a talkpage post first. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 15:16, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Considering that nearly all edits since the 21st were either by a sockmaster and his puppets (see here) or reverts of their edits, I have reverted the article back to the version of the 21st before Robedia's appearance.
This happens to be the version without "*Traffic on motorways is dense and moderately fast, clarification needed often above the speed limit [1]", pretty much the only point in the article that editors seemed to be in disagreement over before Robedia's appearance.
I am not necessarily opposed to adding it back in in some form. However, I do believe the wording needs to be more clear on both the point of density (do we have a definition for dense, or at least actual numbers, or a source calling traffic on motorways in the Netherlands dense?) and the point of moderately fast (same as with dense. Both are pretty arbitrary). Furthermore, the site used as reference does not support the claim as a whole. It merely supports that it happens that people drive well above the speed limit (which happens in pretty much any country which both has frequent traffic and speed limits, I'd dare guess) and does nothing to support the use of the word often, which is again rather arbitrary. Because what is often to one person is not often to another, I feel that if we use it here, we ought to source it well, such as a source that outright states "often", "commonly", "frequently" or another synonym. All in all, I feel that the sentence needs better sourcing and perhaps a slight rewrite so that it becomes clear to the reader what is considered dense, moderately fast and often. Now that the disruptive editor is gone, however, I am certain that we can discuss this and reach consensus and/or a compromise. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 01:21, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
References
Basic to whom?
The part about humor here only talks about Dutch humor up until the 1960s, that's not etiquette, that's history. It gives the impression that the Dutch are still the same as in the 60s, and won't appreciate humor, which is untrue. It is just one of the issues with this short and inconcise article. This is not something worthy of the name encylopedic. ~~Martijn204~~
210.49.196.162 ( talk) 01:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)