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I'm not convinced that people looking for information on what happened to the Druids on Anglesey would use Menai Massacre as a search term, what do others think? Dougweller ( talk) 15:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The term is a hapax, used by Richard Williams Morgan (1861). It's eccentric. I don't think we need a full article on a single passage in Tacitus' Annals, either. -- dab (𒁳) 13:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Druids recognised as a relgion in the UK Merlin-UK ( talk) 21:45, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to inform that this article has been nominated at Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates, for its recent official recognition in the UK. [1] Congrats! :-D -- BorgQueen ( talk) 23:31, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
wrong article, you want Neodruidism. -- dab (𒁳) 13:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
I finally took the time to research this. For several years now, we have just stated that this is a "1845 illustration". As it turns out, it is in fact an engraving dating from before 1836 which was frequently published during the 1830s to 1850s, and which is directly based on an earlier engraving published in 1719, in Bernard de Montfaucon's Antiquitas explanatione. Montfaucon himself claims that it is a depiction of a bas relief at Autun which was published yet earlier by a certain Auberi, but as this Auberi died when the second volume of his Antiquitez d'Autun was not yet complete, it doesn't really become clear whether the engraving had in fact been published before 1719, or if Montfaucon just got the picture from among Auberi's papers. Montfaucon had not seen the original relief himself, and he cites a contact from Autun assuring him, if I understand correctly, that the image he reproduces is the only one surviving, presumably from Auberi's preliminary prints.
This makes this alleged bas-relief at the same time highly interesting and highly dubious. Interesting because it is such an early record, I assume from around 1700. Highly dubious because nobody, not even Montfaucon, seems to ever have seen the relief directly. It is interesting how the relief is reflected in literature: Authors of the early to mid 19th century just reproduce the image and state that it reproduces a Roman era relief from Autun as a matter of fact. Then, the image seems to disappear from the record, although I find it reproduced in "Bell's Latin Course for the First Year in Three Parts" (1901), apparently just as clip-art for students. I have not found any further reference to it in the 20th century (excepting shoddy publications such as this (2006), which were as likely as not researched on Wikipedia). -- dab (𒁳) 10:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Any ideas on druidic connections to some secret societies, namely the Freemasons? I've read about this several times, but would need to brush up on my details before posting anything significant. Any ideas on the theories that the group survived as a secret society, influenced secret societies or influenced the early church in any significant way? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solificus ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Answer: See Thomas Paines treatise on the subject.
One Example of which is published here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/origin_free-masonry.html
Which concludes with:
" A false brother might expose the lives of many of them to destruction; and from the remains of the religion of the Druids, thus preserved, arose the institution which, to avoid the name of Druid, took that of Mason, and practiced under this new name the rites and ceremonies of Druids."
And with respect to the Druids influence upon the early church, there actually is a blurring between the early church, and the Druids. Some of the early Christian Saints, were actually Druids, themselves.
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Celtic_Christianity
"Dyfrig taught Saint Illtud (c. 425 to c. 505), the founder of the great school/seminary/abbey of Llan Illtyd Fawr (English, "Llantwit Major") in the west of South Glamorgan. Illtud was considered the most learned person in Britain, expert alike in Maths, Grammar, Philosophy, Rhetoric and Scripture. He was “by descent a Druid and a fore knower of future events”, the writer implying that there was a Druid caste."
(On a side note... Illtud is apparently related to King Arthur, of Knights of the Round Table fame. "For example, in the Life of Saint Illtud, from internal evidence apparently written around 1140, Arthur is said to be a cousin of that churchman. ")
Another quote by a 19th century antiquary, Godfrey Higgins: "In the early history of the Christian church, in Britain and Ireland, we meet with an order of priests called Culdees....They had a very celebrated monastery in the island of Iona, and others in remote situations, and these situations, by accident or design, mostly the former possessions of the Druids....The result of all the enquiries which I have made into the history of the Culdees is, that they were the last remains of the Druids, who had been converted to Christianity, before the Roman church got any footing in Britain. They were Pythagorean Druidical monks, probably Essenes, and this accounts for their easily embracing Christianity: for the Essenes were as nearly Christians as possible." (The Celtic Druids, 1829)
However, it should be noted that Higgins was possessed of some rather radical ideas, in his time. What survives historical inspection is that the early monks of Iona captured in writing what little is known about the Celtic Legends, which were mostly oral traditions. Certainly, by all records, another Saint, Saint Brigid of Ireland was a Druid, or something similar, converted to early Celtic Christianity. Druids, being a skill set bounded caste, rather than simply religion, could follow whatever deity they could see the most light, therewithin.
Unfortunately, while Druids were actually part of the early Church, and Saints, they endured persecution at various points in the churches history. Around 275ad the Papa (Pope) of Rome grew political aspirations of conquering Celtic Scotland, and many edicts specifically aimed at undermining the Celtic Church, were pronounced by the Roman Papa, such as the banning of the "edification of places and things, such as tree's, lakes or streams", a common Celtic/Druidic practice, as well as "Reincarnation". Such politically motivated dogma gave rise to the term " propaganda", coined by the later Roman Catholic Church. The Druids and their ways were "demonized" by the Church propaganda, reoccuring over and again throughout centuries, often preceding the attempted conquest of a Celtic, or Druidic influenced, Territory (Example: Germanic Tribes).
The Roman Church had quite a problem with a complete conversion of much of the Celtic region, thanks to the Druids. The Romanizing influence on the church really didn't take until the time of St. Columba who coined the phrase "Jesus is my Druid", capitalizing on the very popularity of the traditional beliefs. This resistance is owed in part to the Scottish seat of the Celts having remained unconquered by Rome, the dominant culture underlying the spread of "Romanized" Christianity. The Roman Church - Celtic Church conflicts, among others, sat among the motives for the eventual calling of the First Council of Nicaea, presided over by Constantine the Great. Constantine saw Wisdom in attempting to assert Rome as the final word in all matters ecumenical. The Emperor envisioned a future of conquering victoriously under the "Sign of the Cross".
It was Constantines cultural impact that set in motion the factors that mutated the cross of the early Christians, a circle, with an equilateral cross in the middle, to the sword-like elongated cross in more common use today. The Culdees would have interpreted the early Christian cross as the "Divine Circle", (from whence we derive the old latin term Deis (Modern: Dais) or Disc, but also the term Deity, Deus (God), and Deuce (Two).
["For there were Two Discs, One Disc to Rule the Day, and One Disc whereby to Govern the Night.."]),
having history as an early nature based symbol. And the "equilateral cross" as the "Four Directions[Natures] of the Unseen Winds", or in some writings, "Pillars of the Earth", (see Enoch) all very natural symbols. This early form of Cross is also known as the Greek Cross, for the earliest followers of Christian teachings, the Orthodox Greeks, used it as well. The same cross can be found in many cultures, and histories, many predating Christianity, such the the sun cross or Odins cross.
Eventually, thanks to Constantine, the "Equilateral Cross" mutated into the " Chi-Rho" of the Roman Christians (or Labarum), and then distended to better be representative of the sword, that the Rho was somewhat reminiscent thereof. Cultural artifacting of this earlier Cross is exhibited by Celtic Church symbols, including the Celtic Cross of Iona, The Greek Orthodox Church, and many Protestant Church symbols, and their cultural heirs.. as well as the ones in the earliest Catacombs of the Martyrs.
Near the end of the middle ages, the German word for Pentagram, "Drudenfuss", (literally "Druids Foot") was mistranslated by the church propaganda as "Witches Foot", about the time The Pope, Innocent VIII, issued his now famous Bull, " Summis desiderantes," in 1484, claiming "Germany was filled with Witches". This inflamed the fervor of " Witch Hunting" that was to span several centuries, winding down finally, around the time of the Salem Trials. By then, the damage had been done, Druids had become intimately associated with Witches, who had become associated with Evil, when in fact many were counted among the Saints, Monks, and Bishops of the early Church, itself.
Hello, could someone please tell me what was wrong with my very well cited edit on welsh literature?. I'm finding this quite frustrating as it is so very incorrect I am Welsh and living in Wales associated with Druids (still in practice)- which has ALWAYS been a part of Wales although this hasnt been stated. Paganism is my religion and believe you me there are plenty of Druids in Wales, Celebrating the festivals reciting poetry so on. Paganism is something that has be passed down to me through my grandmother (a tea leave reader/witch)- Also there is nothing about Scotland. Druidism isnt simply ONLY an Irish belief ITS CELTIC. \ sort it out please. my well cited edit, was just as strong as the cited text there (if not even more cited)- with extra links and footnotes from where it has been stated in books. with 2 from scholars (1800) paganisn and Druids was something in wales that become covanted (secret covans) in Wales- where no names were shared and the magical practices kept in secret for year and still the only way most pagans and Druids practice in Wales to this day - never stating the names of the people they practice with. Due to the fact that from 1066 onwards and the Norman conquest it was against the law to not be Catholic and punishable by death. Hitting Ireland harder as we full well know they are Catholics now. Though Wales isnt Catholic at all. You will find this similar story in Scotland. This proves that Druidism was very much alive up until 1066. I will be prepared to cite this aswel also.
I have cited this "Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/
Also there is nothing of the mention of "high priestesses" who are the female equivalent, nothing of the mention of welsh ranking, of certain people in power from other covans that influence the writings of lower covans. nothing of the pagan festivals found in Wales where either the high priestess or Druid will lead the ceremony. the ecinox imbulc summer and winter soltice (the festivals) There is nothing of the mention of Welsh pagan and Druid gatherings not ceremonial called "moots"- mostly a social gathering where pagans drink.
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO GET A HIGH PRIESTESS OR DRUID FROM WALES THAT I KNOW TO HELP YOU WRITE THIS PROPERLY?
Druidism arrived in Britain from the western European Gauls (Celtic) and infiltrated in Britain and Ireland simultaneously simply because Irish and Welsh are 2 separate languages this is not a clear indication of anything. what you have placed is incorrect. Being a part of the Christian church, was an old form of taxation. and something most people did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.0.33 ( talk) 18:31, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
please look at the ratings for the page, 11 for heavily biased (1 bar) and 12 for missing most information (1 bar)- I am 100% certain that those were from Welsh people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.20.186 ( talk) 00:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
"In Wales, the roles and privileges of bards related to laws set down by Hywel Dda in the 10th century AD. During the 18th century, druids came to be seen as the ancestors of the bards, the praise poets, musicians and genealogists, who flourished in Welsh medieval society." http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/ "Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/.
druidism and paganism is a very highly complex religion, that after many many years of being in practice you will rise from rank to rank. Which is widely practiced in Wales still. A great deal of Welsh history books literature, poetry and paintings were burnt in the 1400 AD approx, as an act against the Welsh language. Starting riots and the return of the King Owain Gwylndr (1410-1400) who led a residence against King Henry the 5th England. The surviving manuscripts have been compiled and show druidism all the way through. the neo-druidic heresy.
Druid King, Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon was the inspiration behind the Welsh flag ( Y ddraig goch)- the red dragon, and the common beliefs in mythological creatures- ie Dragons, which can be found ALL throughout welsh literature (quite badly) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.20.186 ( talk) 00:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Druidism arrived in Britain from the western European Gauls (Celtic) and infiltrated in Britain and Ireland simultaneously simply because Irish and Welsh are 2 separate languages this is not a clear indication of anything. what you have placed is incorrect. Being a part of the Christian church, was an old form of taxation (you payed your taxes through the church). and something most people did., could someone please tell me what was wrong with my very well cited edit on welsh literature?. I'm finding this quite frustrating as it is so very incorrect.I am Welsh and living in Wales associated with Druids (still in practice)- which has ALWAYS been a part of Wales although this hasnt been stated. Paganism is my religion and believe you me there are plenty of Druids in Wales, Celebrating the festivals reciting poetry so on. Paganism is something that has be passed down to me through my grandmother (a tea leave reader/witch)- Also there is nothing about Scotland. Druidism isnt simply ONLY an Irish belief ITS CELTIC. \ sort it out please. my well cited edit, was just as strong as the cited text there (if not even more cited)- with extra links and footnotes from where it has been stated in books. with 2 from scholars (1800)
paganisn and Druids was something in wales that become covanted (secret covans) in Wales- where no names were shared and the magical practices kept in secret for years and still the only way most pagans and Druids practice in Wales to this day - never stating the names of the people they practice with. Due to the fact that from 1066 onwards and the Norman conquest it was against the law to not be Catholic and punishable by death. Hitting Ireland harder as we full well know they are Catholics now. Though Wales isnt Catholic at all (but as everyone knows has a very small population). You will find this similar story in Scotland. This proves that Druidism was very much alive up until 1066. I will be prepared to cite this aswel also.
Also there is nothing of the mention of "high priestesses" who are the female equivalent, nothing of the mention of welsh ranking, of certain people in power from other covans that influence the writings of lower covans. nothing of the pagan festivals found in Wales where either the high priestess or Druid will lead the ceremony. the ecinox imbulc summer and winter soltice (the festivals) There is nothing of the mention of Welsh pagan and Druid gatherings not ceremonial called "moots"- mostly a social gathering where pagans drink.
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO GET A HIGH PRIESTESS OR DRUID FROM WALES THAT I KNOW TO HELP YOU WRITE THIS PROPERLY?
Also the Gauls spoke a Brythonic language as well as the Welsh. In addition to Christianity. my grandmother who was a witch told very few people (as all pagans and Druids are like) and told people that she was Christian but prayed at home. for reasons she wouldn't even tell me. But very frequently read my tealeaves, passed it onto my mother then me. the system is- old hag- witch- and the beauty. But she preferred witch.
Also national poetry competitions to place the bards is currently ongoing in Wales, (the 10 best poets are named bards). I should know as I dated one and they don't practice human sacrifice anymore I should know as I'm still alive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.141.62 ( talk) 23:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.157.36 ( talk) 16:58, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller ( talk • contribs)
Welsh literature is missing a VAST amount of information, pure ignorance like this will solve nothing. If you must disagree with everything I have typed ( a solution to the pathetic 2 ended answer)- follow the research yourself. until then you will continually receive bad ratings 11 for heavily biased (one bar) and missing most information (1 bar)- I completely agree with these ratings. leah
As well as having a History degree, I am also a popularized illustrator/designer for t-shirts and jumpers. you write whatever plagiarism you like and I will be producing a t-shirt that says " they say it will take 1,000 monkey's with a 1,000 typewriters and a 100 years to type the bible. they say it will take a Billion wikkipedia editors, a billion years to type a wealth of incorrect information. the monkey bible would be better" as you wont change it and this is plagiarism, people will find this t-shirt funny, because wikkipedia has a notorious bad name. thankyou for your ignorance, I will start designing the lettering sometime this week.you stick to what your good and I'll stick to what I'm good at — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
"Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" just pay attention to it. then read whats there- its contradictory. it states that the welsh (in Britain) were influenced by the Irish terms (?) , also stated as a possibility- the riddle is solved- the answer is above. sorry I'm annoyed that's all- leah mainwaring Also mryddin wllyt was born in carmarthen that is fact, druid does mean "oak-knower" just like you stated, and we kept that stupid branch from his oak tree for years in Carmarthenshire County Museum. your not paying any attention at all. Why I'm frustrated, yes maybe it was written badly (my fault) but yes these things are common known fact, and have been for years. you seem to be missing the point entirely, that's all. http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=merlin%27s+oak&um=1&hl=en&biw=800&bih=507&tbm=isch&tbnid=7fYJE4baNzRUCM:&imgrefurl=http://www.carmarthen.info/oldoak.htm&docid=p-_SfGFwMQQk5M&w=250&h=330&ei=0gxcTvDaBJGu8QOJ9emWDA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=521&page=1&tbnh=129&tbnw=98&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=62&ty=53
Myrddin Wyllt and Vita Merlini how could you ignore these things?- what I was trying to say
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
31.96.232.202 (
talk)
21:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
The dates are incorrect.you seem to be forgetting the pagan god gaeya (mother nature). The expression goes where I'm from why don't you go and teach a granny how to suck eggs. In other words- your trying to write about Welsh history, Ronald hulton is wrong.Druids derived from Gaul and Britain. And welsh people weren't influenced by the Irish as you should full well know the Britons (welsh) populated England as well meaning at that time it only would have been welsh history. On the note of Merlyn or any other historical figure- what you have typed is purely opinions. Paganism was very much alive in welsh and gaulish cultures (then passed onto) irish . You have typed something which is far too misleading and incorrect. As far as Italy is concerned, the roman empire caused the dark ages (where nothing was written correctly) and only would have been influenced by the celtic beliefs after invading britain and enslaving (massacring the gauls) what your sourcing is a classic case of "the victor writes history"- http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937 you need to read this and educate yourself with welsh history on that topic. By the way it doesnt matter what has been written about Myrddin outside of welsh literature regarding his life. oak-knower Druid and the pagan god Gaeaya (mother nature) outside of Wales has turned into something outlandishly ridiculous and far far from its original meaning, far enough, enough crap has been written about myrddin over the years but that doesnt retract from our, mythological historical literature and way of life. plus Vortigern was the first celebrated King of the Britons (Welsh) and reigned from Wales (spoke the old Brythonic)- with his 12 druids you say (?) yet we had none (?). I know "oak-knower' druids- like you would say that to you say live in (hippie communes) to me they live in the woodlands in roundhouses, they're more learned on the topic of welsh history. And aren't ceremonial yet would only marry by ribbon binding- the lifestyle of druids in wales is different- yet they all believe in magic. The concept of oak-knower is simply the freedom and spirit of nature and yourself, inner alignments good and bad energies- tarot card reading. It is what people call "spiritual"- all the hooky coaky nonsense of crystal healing astrology and that sort of stuff comes from wales. age old traditions. there's millions of them from tee-pee vally to callwallon woods from horltsfield woods to olwen woods and networked all across Wales. The men are all oak-knower druids- to you- a man that lives in the woods that believes in magic. luckily for you they wont read what has been typed to be offended- as they usually don't have p.c's- so write what you will.
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
31.96.41.36 (
talk)
16:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
that the earliest mention of Druids came from Britain and Gaul, ie not influenced by Ireland the other way around. there is no denying of the pagan influence in Wales also- Caerfyddin from (myrddin)- and merlins oak. close to tee-pee vally where he lived, a town named after where he was born. a town in between Caerfyddin and swansea called "kidwelly" meaning "the black cat" the road sign for it has a black cat also. Behind glass in Swansea library there are ancient witches spells books covered in dust- in Caerfyddin there are books about merlin (ancient) I can't be bothered the name the rest. But you seem to have typed that that was ALL influenced through ireland, INCORRECT. it is the former option that ronald hulton proposed. our flag itself comes from magical beliefs. You simply cannot just read one sentence in a large book a poo-poo everything. Not all humans are right about things. Ive been to Ireland myself and stayed for a very long time hitch hiking with pagans and druids to do sight seeing- I actually found far less people into that kind of stuff anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.41.36 ( talk) 17:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
firstly I couldnt be more clear than what I have said A- the first recordings of druids come from britain and gaul not ireland in the 1st century BC. fact. the latter proposal is incorrect on the basis that "druidae" was written in britain and by the gauls (not in ireland) and that "drwy" in Welsh is our language he is wrong so very wrong. I could put that ireland was influenced by us saying "druidae" which is actually more accurate , the term was borrowed from Ireland- it's wrong. He simply proposes 2 things, he doesn't state anything. I could find a single sentence in a book and place it in such a way that its misleading as well and B- this may or may not be accurate from the 6th century- http://one-evil.org/people/people_06c_david.htm this- and the traditions that were left wasn't borrowed from Ireland. Also there were no druids? you say? although you have put a Welsh king ON the page with the story of 12 Druids. Briton King reigned from Wales spoke the "old welsh" get it right. king geraint- approx year 600AD http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=king+geraint&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&biw=800&bih=507&tbm=isch&tbnid=8FNAroKVLgodYM:&imgrefurl=http://members.fortunecity.com/aurelius222/geraint.html&docid=YjhpDzAgk6upvM&w=235&h=417&ei=LTFdTv75H8a28QPUxNjJAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=259&vpy=26&dur=60&hovh=299&hovw=168&tx=105&ty=147&page=1&tbnh=108&tbnw=61&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0 recorded king dispite what it says about king arthur— Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.128.234 ( talk) 18:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
dont disgrace my flag, people or history, beliefs(mythological) anymore . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.230.104 ( talk) 20:17, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I already provided sources from historians but that was deleted. I have already done this. this is completely wrong, completely completely completely wrong. like I said I am a clothes designer/illustrator. and popularized as well. this will be my next t-shirt after I have finished the lettering. "they say that 1,000 monkeys with a 1,000 typewriters with a 100 years years could type the bible. They say that a billion wikkipedia editors with a billion computers and a million years will produce a wealth of incorrect information"
people will find this hilarious mainly because wikkipedia has such a bad name. and I can see why now, it is simply plagiarism. one line from a book portrayed in a certain way can produce something that appears a 1,000 times different. you are very ignorant people for not being able to see that ALL of our historical literature is mythological and magical. this IS degrading and disgracing. like I said before. this page has 11 ratings for heavily biased and 12 for missing most information. people already know better than whats there. this is the kind of stuff that gives wikkipedia a bad name and I can completely see why. hence when I produce a t-shirt (that isn't an illustrated design) I 100% make sure that the witty comments will work and sell. obviously I havent tried to edit wikkipedia for that reason, but this t-shirt will sell. thankyou very very much for your time, you have misinformed yourselves with incorrect information and I will soon be making a great deal of money from one design in the pipeline.
you disgrace my flag (being a dragon from magical beliefs) I disgrace you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.143.113 ( talk) 21:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I also have a history degree- and a further more extensive knowledge on welsh/Celtic history, quite obviously. people take the piss out of "where you stick" because your always wrong. At least my t-shirt sell. how dare you say what you've said in this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.148.35 ( talk) 00:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Irish mythology - Welsh mythology - Celtic Christianity - Magic and Religion - the welsh Druids described as seer and Prophets (diviners) the Irish druids described as (diviners) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.103.45.51 ( talk) 18:41, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
not a problem-
please see my attempted input.
Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. [1]. The faith was firmly established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission [2]. Though information during these two periods are sparse. [3] It has been expressed during that duration the bards and prophets that featured heavily in medieval Welsh literature, that the druids were thier true ancestors. [4] [5]. It is known that the prophet Myrddin Wyllt (c. 540 - c. 584), later became personified as Merlin, [6] and representive of Magic and religion in Britain. The inspiration for the Flag of Wales came from the end of the 6th century, from King Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon (Y Ddraig Goch) the red dragon. Afirming the Belief in mythological gaints. Through the growth of Christianity in Britain. [7]
please check all of the citations- references and I hope you better this article :).
leahxx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.39.144 ( talk) 16:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
There has been a lot of to-ing and fro-ing in the last few days with no meaningful discussion on the talk page here. Please, both sides, do discuss your content and objections to it here rather than simply reverting and re-inserting. If all else fails I will fully protect this page for a while, to allow you time to discuss it here. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 15:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
please check all of the citations for this attempted edit, and try to excuse my early frustration and anger. (I am unfamiliar with Wikipedia).
please check citations-
Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. [8]. The faith was firlmy established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission [9]. Though information during these two periods is sparse. [10] It has been expressed during that duration the bards and prophets that featured heavily in medieval Welsh literature, that the druids were thier true ancestors. [11] [12]. It is known that the prophet Myrddin Wyllt (c. 540 - c. 584), later became personified as Merlin, [13] and representive of Magic and religion in Britain. The inspiration for the Flag of Wales came from the end of the 6th century, from King Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon (Y Ddraig Goch) the red dragon. Afirming the Belief in mythological gaints. Through the growth of Christianty in Britain. [14] — Preceding unsigned comment added by leah27011987 ( talk) 16:16, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
you obviously havent taken the time to read it or check the citations- it suits what has been said above it under welsh literature. and yes it is relevant. thankyou — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.41.168 ( talk) 16:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
the point is- Welsh literature
Whilst druids featured prominently in many medieval Irish sources, they were far rarer in their Welsh counterparts. Unlike the Irish texts, the Welsh term commonly seen as referring to the druids, dryw, was used to refer purely to prophets and not to sorcerers or pagan priests. Historian Ronald Hutton noted that there were two explanations for the use of the term in Wales: the first was that it was a survival from the pre-Christian era, when dryw had been ancient priests, whilst the second was that the Welsh had borrowed the term from the Irish, as had the English (who used the terms dry and drycraeft to refer to magicians and magic respectively, most probably influenced by the Irish terms.)[60]
suggests two ultimatums.
my input suggests-
Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. [15]. The faith was firlmy established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission [16]. Though information during these two periods is sparse. [17]
"whilst the second was that the Welsh had borrowed the term from the Irish, as had the English (who used the terms dry and drycraeft to refer to magicians and magic respectively, most probably influenced by the Irish terms.)[60]"
is a strong opinion, which I strongly disagree with. More research needs to me made. The Red Book of Hergest contained enough magic to interest Tolkien, who named the Red Book of Westmarch after our book, a collection of lord of the rings, written by hobbits. The point being is that's a lot of magic to be "claimed" as Irish. So I disagree having read my books as well. Welsh literature is riddled with tales of magic, Arthurian legend, king Arthur, Merlin, sword Excalibur, dragon slaying so on can only predominately be found in Welsh literature. It is a very very very bold thing to say that ALL OF THAT came from Ireland. Please look at the dates again and realize that a pro ceremonial pagan created this opinion. It— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I can't see it but yes Hywel dda placed down the laws for the bards in the 10th century (who were deemed to be the successors of the druids)
it suits this part of the article-
Possible late survival of Insular druidism The best evidence of a druidic tradition in the British Isles is the independent cognate of the Celtic *druwid- in Insular Celtic: The Old Irish druídecht survives in the meaning of "magic", and the Welsh dryw in the meaning of "seer".
While the druids as a priestly caste were extinct with the Christianization of Wales, complete by the 7th century at the latest, the offices of bard and of "seer" (Welsh: dryw) persisted in medieval Wales into the 13th century."
-I believe that as during the time of 407ad to the end of the 6th century information in Britain regarding Christianity being sparse- this calls for more reading. which I will do and wont bother you for a while until I've sussed it out. comment added by Leah27011987 ( talk • contribs) 00:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
yes I've found it, lovely.
References
"They recognised the authority of a single leader, who would rule till their death". Grammatically, "their" is tied to "They", so the author appears to be claiming that the ruler would rule until the Druid class were all dead (though the singular "death" creates some grammatical ambiguity). But I don't think that is what he really meant. Try replacing "their" with "his". If one wishes to allow for the possibility that the leader could be female, substitute "her or his".
Alan1000 ( talk) 11:28, 8 November 2011 (UTC)alan1000
"Bog bodies, said to show ritual sacrifice..." I think the article could emphasise more clearly that everything written about 'sacrifice' is hypothesis and speculation, not just 'pure', but occasionally bordering upon 'wild'. The Druids probably practised human sacrifice at some stage (as, indeed, did the Romans); but it would be indefensible to judge them by the accounts of the ancient Roman commentators who, to a greater or lesser degree, were propagandists. Would you write an account of the Palestinian Intifada, based solely upon American or Israeli sources? Julius Caesar was naturally determined to paint the blackest picture he could, to justify his policy of summarily executing every Druid priest on sight, with the aim of the total extermination of the class. He knew exactly what needed to be done to destroy social cohesion in Gaul and Britain.
There is not one shred - not one single piece - of hard, objective evidence to show that the 'threefold' executions of the Bog Bodies (though undoubtedly formal in nature) were carried out for religious-sacrificial purposes. You could just as well say that they were the standard judical penalty for (say) incest, or patricide, with no particular religious connotation. And nobody could adduce a single piece of evidence to prove you wrong.
Alan1000 ( talk) 12:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC) Alan Masterman
Just verifying because I've seen this start fights elsewhere: The earliest version of this article to use any dating system used the common era dating system. Ian.thomson ( talk) 02:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I noticed "Druid" shares an etymological connection with "Dryad". Are there any other noted connections between the two? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.147.172.70 ( talk) 00:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
The BBC radio programme In Our Time just had a show on Druids yesterday. You can listen/download it here: [5]. It featured professors Barry Cunliffe, Miranda Aldhouse-Green, and Justin Champion. Maybe some editors might be interested in listening to it.-- Brianann MacAmhlaidh ( talk) 09:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps a touch of satire from Archdruid of Canterbury Visits Orthodox Patriarch might be included?
CJSHayward ( talk) 00:47, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Although this is not historically relevant, is there an interest in adding a short subsection that can overview the depiction of
druids in popular culture, such as in fantasy-themed RPGs like
D&D and
Diablo (series)?
ozhu
量 (
talk·
contribs)
23:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I have just met a person who practices the druid religion. I was surprises to see that there was little information on the modern day religious practices and beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.142.30.24 ( talk) 01:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Several editors have been adding assertions that the ancient Druids included both men and women. Do we have any ancient testimony to support that point? Thomas Amory's Memoirs of several Ladies of Great Britain (1755) is not exactly a reliable source: 18th century authors were notorious for inventing Celtic history out of whole cloth. I find no mention of female Druids in Caesar's account; are there any good sources? Otherwise, this claim should be removed. -- Elphion ( talk) 13:58, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I sadly just read your conclusion section of the article on Druids. I appreciate that you quoted properly Stuart Piggott, Barry Cunliffe and Miranda Alhouse-Green, but I wish you would have at least included Peter Berresford Ellis in part of your summary, as he offers a well researched alternative to your conclusion. His view that the use of human sacrifice by the Druids was based more on anti-Druid Roman prejudice than on actual documented truth is compelling. Most of the Roman sources relate to Poseidonios (whether he is given as source or not) including Julius Caesar, and the fact that the Romans never forgave the Celts for sacking Rome in the 300's BCE. While to say that there was not any human sacrifice may be overstressing the point, I feel it is fairer to state that the use of human sacrifice was probably only used sparingly and during times of great national stress (i.e. the Roman invasion of Britain) if it was used at all.
Charles Kilker 99.100.130.90 ( talk) 18:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the unreliable source? tag just before source 33 under Sacrifice, the sentence reading " Peter Berresford Ellis, a Celtic nationalist who authored The Druids (1994), believed them to be the equivalents of the Indian Brahmin caste, and considered accusations of human sacrifice to remain unproven,[unreliable source?][33] ...":
The issue seems to be that some readers consider Ellis to be an unreliable historian because he writes for wider audiences and doesn't cite his sources as often as more academic historians would. But in this particular case, the sentence isn't talking about any factual claim he made (e.g. "The druids practiced this."). All it's saying is that he himself, in his book, made a comparison to the Indian Brahmin caste and he himself didn't consider the claims of human sacrifice to be reliable. So this isn't a case of someone needing to go look in the book and then find the source he used, like it would be if we were talking about a factual claim, rather than his own opinions.
Based on this, I don't think it makes sense to keep the unreliable source? tag there. I think we should either remove the tag, or remove that part of the sentence that states his opinions, but continuing to have the tag there for no reason doesn't make sense to me. Aduff01 ( talk) 03:22, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Hey folks—why is Ronald Hutton mentioned in this page no less than 12 times? Exactly why is he given so much prominence here? Is this because he has produced some popular audience books that are easily to get ahold of or what? Seriously, this article reads like a promotional piece regarding Hutton and portrays him as far more of an authority than he is on the topic—he is no specialist in Celtic studies. In fact, Hutton is a particularly poor source when it comes to Germanic studies and he doesn't seem to be much better when it comes to Celtic studies. Perhaps his opinion should appear where it's relevant and besides that of other scholars, but right now the prominence of Hutton on this article is outright ridiculous.
Until this has been sorted out, I've placed a neutrality tag on the article. :bloodofox: ( talk) 22:36, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
It needs to be removed unless specific arguments are made here clearly related to our NPOV policy. Hopefully the editor will either start a section on that or remove it. Dislike of a source isn't enough, and I've already given it a tag relating to sources. Doug Weller talk 21:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
First, I agree that he's been overused and that we need more sources.
But removing every bit of text sourced to him, and even text sourced to someone else, is not a sensible way to handle the issue of whether and how we use Hutton. WP:BRD should have been followed, and even if an editor decided not to, after my discussion above other means to deal with the issue should have been followed, not just a massive deletion - unless of course it was certain that all the text deleted was wrong, etc.
So let's take this by stages. I've replaced most of the deleted material. I've added a tag at the top of the article querying the reliability of the sources. I've removed some of the material sourced to Hutton. I've added a couple of fact tags.
Blood and Mistletoe is definitely not a "pop culture" book - which academics have suggested it is? Hutton does say he wrote The Druids, for the popular market, but this was published by an academic press. I'm saving this now as I have to go out, more in an hour. Doug Weller talk 13:01, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Doug Weller talk 15:51, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Just to note that Miranda Aldhouse-Green's review (which I have) of Blood and Magic states: "In the first chapter, Hutton reviews the source material--the ancient literature of Graeco-Roman authors that first propelled a group of elite politico-religious leaders into the imaginations of their peers. He rightly points out that no archaeological evidence points unequivocally to the existence of Druids, and since they were operating within a Gallo-British context of the later centuries BC that was almost entirely non-literate, assumes that absence is to be expected." Should we use some of this instead of Hutton? I've removed the duplicate use of Hutton's quote on this, leaving the one in the lead, although I see it doesn't have his name. Doug Weller talk 12:26, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Although I can find otherwise reliable sources that say John Toland founded this (as the order itself claims), I believe that Hutton is correct. "John Toland, the Druids, and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship" by J. A. I. Champion in "Irish Historical Studies" Vol. 32, No. 127 (May, 2001), pp. 321-342 which I have doesn't claim this, nor so far as I can see does A Political Biography of John Toland. [13] The Rise of Modern Mythology, 1680-1860, an Indiana University Press publication, says Toland attacked them (as do other less reliable sources). [14] Doug Weller talk 13:16, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
A review of Ann Ross's book Druids [15] in Antiquity says "The earliest mention of Druids in antiquity seems to occur in a lost Peripatetic 3rd-oentury BD essay called the 'Magikos'. Not long after. Sotion of Alexandria classified them with Chaldean mystics. Persian Magi. Greek Pythagoreans and Indian 'Gymnosophistai*. all given to enigmatic philosophical and theological inodes of expression. So Diogenes Laertius tells us in his variably useful biographical history of the philosophers. Much later, in the 3rd century AD. emperors-in-waiting. Alexander Severus. Diocletian and Amelian are reported to have received obscurely hinting prophecies from female Druids. Perhaps we should suspect propaganda."
John Koch's book Celtic Culture says "According to Diogenes Laertius (Jl. earlier jnd century ad?), Aristotle referred to the druids as follows: Some say that the study of philosophy first developed among the barbarians. For the Persians had their Magi, the Babylonians or Assyrians their Chaldeans, the Indians their Gymnosophists, while the Celts and Galatae had those called Druids and Semnotheoi, according to Aristotle in the Mtgiais and Sotion in the 2jrd book of his Successions.", adding "It is not certain whether this remark has been correctly attributed to Aristotle, but since Alexandrian Greek authors make similar reports this literary tradition must at least go back some centuries before Diogenes Laertius." [16]
So we can use these sources instead of Hutton. Doug Weller talk 13:37, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Severus Alexander and Diocletian are significant emperors. But who the heck is this "Amelian"? Dimadick ( talk) 06:15, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
I've removed Hutton's comment on classical sources and realised that Posidonius is not mentioned in the article, although he is the likely source for Strabo, Diodorus Siculus and even Caesar. His article comments on this but is unsourced. One source, Judaism of the Second Temple Period: Sages and Literature by David Flusser [17] gives a bit of detail concerning similar wording.
Barry Cunliffe's little book says "The scholar J. J. Tierney, who some 50 years ago attempted to reconstruct the Celtic ethnography of Posidonius, argued that much of what was said of the Celts by Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Athenaeus, and Caesar was derived directly from the lost Histories. This is certainly so of Athenaeus, who explicitly says he is quoting from the twenty-third book of Posidonius' Histories, and there are certain close similarities in the accounts of Diodorus Siculus and Strabo which suggest that they too used this source, though not necessarily exclusively. Caesar poses a different problem. He may have been aware of the Posidonian account, but he is also likely to have gleaned much from personal observations made as he fought his way through Gaul. For this reason, we will deal with his contribution separately later. If we accept that Athenaeus, Strabo, and Diodorus Siculus all relied heavily on Posidonius as a source for the Celts, then what they say must be based largely on a text composed in the first half of the 1st century BC by a scholar who had visited the area and had seen the rapidly changing society for himself. While his philosophical stance may have influenced his presentation, his observations are likely to have been accurately made from real-life situations." [18]
The Iron Age in Lowland Britain By D.W. Harding, Derek William Harding [19] also uses Tierney commenting that Strabo and Diodorus "must be treated with caution, for, as Tierney reminds us, they are themselves capable of confusing what Posidonius reported, even if the latter himself were accurate in the first place. For instance, the ability to reconcile two opposing armies on the verge of combat is attributed by Diodorus to the bards, and by Strabo to the druids. Indeed, it is not easy to distinguish in terms of precise functions and powers between the threefold ranks of druids, bards and seers (votes) who are mentioned by Strabo, Diodorus and Ammianus Marccllinus (Ammianus Marcellinus, 15, IX, 8), all depending directly or indirectly upon Posidonius. It is not the purpose of the present study to compare in detail the texts of these various classical writers, a task which has already been undertaken elsewhere (Tierney, i960, 223) ...There can be little doubt that Caesar exaggerated the importance of the druids, to the extent of attributing to them powers and functions that elsewhere were divided between the three classes. His motive in doing so was presumably to demonstrate the politico-religious threat which they represented to Rome, and to justify their suppression."
I have a copy of J. J. Tierney, “The Celtic Ethnography of Posidonius,” Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy no. 60 (1960) by the way. Doug Weller talk 12:12, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Ammianus Marcellinus? The 4th-century historian? But his history starts in the late 1st century, what possible knowledge of druids could he have? Dimadick ( talk) 06:08, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Druidess already redirects here. Despite this, User:Bard Cadarn went ahead and created both the above page and an unneeded disambig, Druidess (disambiguation), and another short, inadequately-sourced article with almost identical content at Gallizenae (as this user was the only editor, I have turned it into a redirect to this article. @ Bard Cadarn:, if you can properly source that content, merge it here or into the other article under discussion, don't edit war. I propose merging what little non-duplicated, sourced & usable content is at Druidess (Celtic mythology) into this article (as the same user has already started doing), then deleting that and the unneeded disambig (ETA: As it was a wordy redirect, not an actual disambig, I got bold and deleted it). I also strongly suggest avoiding the outdated, clunky term, "druidess" and instead just say "druid" or, if necessary, "female druid" or its Celtic language equivalents, such as the O.I. bandrúi. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 16:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
The Druidess (Celtic mythology) was on the See Also part of the Druid page for eons, CorbieV. It was not exactly hidden. And, again, Gallizenae is just an English translation of what I found on the French Wikipedia. Besides, Druidess (Celtic mythology) uses all approved sources and draws from a plethora of other articles. It contradicts nothing. Again, where is the problem? I can see why one might want to merge Druidess (Celtic mythology) and Gallizenae, though, so would that work? -- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 18:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
Which article, Doug Weller? Merge Gallizenae into Druidess (Celtic mythology) or Druid? -- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 18:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I've removed the claim about Caesar referring to the Gallizenae. The page of the book cited is from the introductory essay in the 1890 edition: Here's the full book linked at Archive.org, if, like me, you can only see it in snippet view on Google Books. The reference is to page 111, but I can't link directly to it. -- Nicknack009 ( talk) 13:41, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Why remove it, Nicknack009? Both George William Joseph Stock's and Emanuel Hoffmann's translation of the De bello Gallico say that Caesar referred to the Gallizenae. Is there evidence that this claim is in fact untrue - and, if so, where? -- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 18:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
If you are going to have a redirect from a previous independent page/article, the title of the merged page should correspond to the merged section reflecting the subject of the original page. "Female Druid" does not fulfill this role, and only works to confuse people looking for the original page, which had been up on wiki for quite some time. As there is a painting by Alexandre Cabanel originally entitled "La Druidesse" from 1868 gracing the section, the word "Druidess" obviously has some historical connotation; and I would think it doubtful that he coined the term. Surely it existed previously? In any case, after one hundred and forty-eight years of use I think it is a legitimate modern word to describe what we are talking about. "Female Druid" sounds silly, and a little sexist/demeaning, despite their somewhat apparent similar roles in society. "There are several Irish words for female druids - such as bandrúi ("woman-druid")" I found nothing on the Táin Bó Cúailnge page citing this word, nor the source indicating that bandrui means "woman-druid". This needs to be cited or explained better. This sentence made no sense so I added the word with: Bodhmall, featured in the Fenian Cycle, is one of Fionn mac Cumhaill's childhood caretakers and Tlachtga, the daughter of the druid Mug Ruith according to Irish tradition is associated with the Hill of Ward, which was the site of prominent festivals in Tlachtga's honour during the Middle Ages." During...not in! If it is happening within a time span during is a more accurate word. The Tuatha Dé Danannare are a people, not a club; therefore this sentence should read: "Biróg, another druidess of the Tuatha De Danann, plays a key role in an Irish folktale where the Fomorian warrior Balor attempts to thwart a prophecy foretelling he would be killed by his own grandson; imprisoning his only daughter Eithne in the tower of Tory Island, away from any contact with men." It is written this way below, so I assume this is just a typo? ALSO: Not sure how you "frustrate" a prophecy...but it sounds hard! I have instead changed this word to "thwart". I think it is more appropriate for what is trying to be conveyed. My main concern with this article, and the original Druidess page, is that it has changed quite a bit in the short amount of time since I first cited it in a paper. I like that some material in the section has been more accurately sited and improved; but I imagine as more material is gathered, the Druidess entry might gain enough information to once again warrant its own page. Not sure who made the decision to merge the similar topics, but I am afraid I don't think it was a good one. Especially as there was no corresponding title in the Druid article to match up with the original page I cited. Had someone tried to look up my citation, they would have been lost! As an additional suggestion...can't remember if this is a possibility, I don't often add or edit on Wiki...but could the Redirect be made to immediately take someone to the actual Druidess section rather than the top of the page? All other edits were simply grammatical in nature, in order to make the piece more easily read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by joseph_setorius ( talk • [[Special:Contributions/joseph_setorius]] contribs) 09:50, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I beg to differ that Druid is gender neutral. If it was, there wouldn't have been a need to come up with different words/terms for them in the original Irish sources; right? If druid is truly "gender neutral" as you posit, then there shouldn't be any reason to use the terms "female-druid" or "woman-druid"; as it should be obvious. But there are some obvious examples in the section that need to state this clarification. If you prefer to use the term "bandrúi" as it contains more historical context than Druidesses...es (ha ha) that we are talking about, this seems appropriate. I am not sure if "Neo-Druidism", Wicca, or the Ancient Order of Druids (according to Wiki founded 1781) use the term Druidess, but would agree that there is no definitive link between ancient Druidism and modern varieties/variations. Nor am I associated with any of these movements. I thought I should state that since many people that seem to have edited this page, or complained about it in the past are associated with one of these "mystic religions" or social orders; and seem to want to use the word "Druidry", a term I have never seen in print before. As far as your comment "except perhaps that there is a misconception that all druids were men"...as we know so little of the ancient Druids, there may have in fact been a time, or regions that did only have male Druids...but I just don't think there is enough information one way or the other; and unfortunately Greek and Roman sources, though informative on some level, are also often unreliable. Though Tacitus and Plutarch are certainly two of the more reliable sources in my opinion. Therefore Corbie V, I am going to replace all instances of "woman-druid" and "female-druid" with the term "bandrúi" as this seems to be the best compromise. It is a toss-up whether I find "Druidry" or "woman-druid" more ridiculous sounding. Hopefully you will agree! I also added Druidess in parenthesis so there was some consistency between older pages/edits and new Corbie. But if this really bothers anyone, feel free to remove it. I just think there ought to be some continuity between the older versions and this one. regardless of the accuracy of the term. Thanks-- joseph_setorius ☊ ☼ 16:00, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Nicknack, good point that if we're including Gallizenae, whatever they were, as a subsection we shouldn't use the Irish as the section header. Joseph, there is no consensus for "druidess," rather, some stuff that no one had bothered to work on. I say we stick with "female druids". As for "druid" being gender neutral, again, I'm talking about modern English usage, which is what we write in here on en-wiki. When we're quoting sources, be they Irish or Victorian or whatever, we should use whatever term is in that direct quote. For the rest, we're not using Victorian language that appends an "-ess" on every normal profession to indicate how frightfully weird it is that a 'woman would do such a thing (fetch the fainting couch and corset!). Sorry. But seriously... - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 23:28, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
On the flip side...there is the word actress. So would you refer to Michelle Pfeiffer as "The actor Michelle Pfeiffer" ? Just because a term originated in the Victorian era doesn't mean it isn't, or can't be used presently. Undoubtedly there are many words with Victorian origins that are commonly used words today. Furthermore, this term IS used in modern parlance by many different groups. From neo-pagan religions and role-playing supplements, to university essays. The real argument is "Will people understand what this term means?" And the answer is YES! Your stated logic is equally ridiculous, and the entire point of using the heading "Druidess", was to have some continuity with the deleted page that had been up at least two years. In this way people searching for the previous article could easily reference/find the relocated material. Furthermore, it doesn't hurt, obfuscate, or "devalue" the content of the article in any way. I have added this fact to the heading, and really there shouldn't be any reason not to include this, except your ego. Sincerely-- joseph_setorius ☊ ☼ 15:06, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
I did...did you change it? I am really confused why including one word in parenthesis bothers you so much. Do you not think it is a good idea to cite the previous page that was up? And if so...why? If you edited a book, or came out with a new edition, wouldn't you want to make some note as to how or where material had been moved or updated. If I really felt the addition of that one word was "deceitful"...for lack of a better term, or misleading; that would be one thing. But all the material moved to this section of the article "Druid", did not exist here even six months ago. It seems prudent to have some kind of continuity to indicate where relocated material was originally found. So what is your objection to this? If it helps people realize "Oh so that is what happened to that page", what is the harm? It is not like I deleted "Female Druid" or attempted to change meaning here; I only added a term that would bring continuity to the changes made over the last...two years (?) I really can't see why you have such a strong objection to that. I looked at your Wiki page, and it is quite impressive. You have obviously spent a lot of time editing and "improving" Wiki. But I have to ask...what background do you have with this subject? I have a minor in Classical (Roman & Greek mainly) studies. If my edit truly hurt the article, I wouldn't put it up. One last thing. I looked at my message page, and you evidently left a message implying/indicating that I had edited or changed your comments on this talk page. I did not do this, nor would I. I have also notice my time stamp among other things keeps changing. Whether this is some unexplained error, or my lack of editing knowledge I am not sure...but I would never alter your comments Corbie. That would also run counter to my whole continuity mantra, and the need to have a clear record as to the changes and validity of Wiki. If they didn't exist, Wiki wouldn't be a very good refence...and I like to think it is. Despite Steven Colbert changing Harding's middle name to "Gangsta". I would assume since that time that Wiki has a lot more dedicated editors keeping tabs on things. I am not just trying to be a jerk here about the Druidess thing. I gave a legitimate reason for my change/concern, and it seems you have chosen to ignore it. It has nothing to do with "gender-neutral" terms. We will just have to disagree about this point. It is that having been previously sited, I wanted some kind of reference to the Druidess page that was deleted. What is your objection to this? Is there harm in doing this? I am not going to re-edit now...because I don't want this to turn into some kind of silly kids in the sandbox argument. But I think adding the word (Druidess) to the section heading does nothing to diminish the article. If this means bringing in another administrator with knowledge of the subject I am all for it. But if you can't give me a legitimate reason why this can't be included...then I think it ought to be put back up. -- joseph_setorius ☊ ☼ 16:00, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
Huh...I found this on your page Corbie: No climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man. Just wondering if this applies somehow here. -- joseph_setorius ☊ ☼ 17:27, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
There has been a citation required tag on this for close to five years. I've looked for evidence that the Magicus is inauthentic but haven't found anything so am modifying the text accordingly. Please revert and discuss if there is any objection. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:04, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
...and I'll play about with it over the next few days. There are problems with balance and POV... it looks like there has been a fair bit of editing by someone with an agenda to discredit modern day people who identify as druids. Whatever your opinion about "neo-druids", this is supposed to be an encyclopedic article about pre-roman celtic druids and any discussion of the modern day groups should be limited to a section on legacy. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 00:16, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Continuing to make edits... problems I perceive with the article:
Unless anyone raises an objection I'll continue to try to improve matters. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:09, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone know where the unreferenced quote from Diodorus Siculus comes from?
I have found the following translation in Bibliotheka Historia, but it doesn't quite follow the above.
Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
The origin of word DRU-ides most likely comes from Albanian language. DRU in Albanian in general mean Tree or Wood. Going through a Greek source and turn to an epithet this word took the greek particle "ides" which turn it to DRU-IDES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 ( talk) 15:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
To find that you should check greek (old and new) dictionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 ( talk) 16:19, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
In the old Greek dictionary there is no mention of Greek as well, as the " greek " word comes from Roman Empire describing part of what is today south of Albania and north of modern Greek. The fact that Albanian language heritated this from the mother language "IE", and no other has it in this form, does make the Albanian language automatically the source. Does the greek workd Ksylo sound to you like IE or like Semitic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 ( talk) 16:36, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
I think an important consideration that does not seem to be covered here is that there were many different tribes all over the territory of Western Europe and Britain. There has to have been a great variety and many differences in the practices of the tribes. A druid of a tribe in Southern Germany would very likely had much variation from a Druid in Northern Scotland. For example, there could be human sacrifice in one area and not in another, divination using bird flights in areas of north-western France and divination by casting bones in the coastal region of Italy. Druids could be more philosophical in one tribe and more king-like in a different tribe, they could wear crowns of snake eggs in Wales and necklaces of acorns in Denmark. (I use present day geographic for ease of description.) To further illustrate my point: in present day Nicaragua there are approximately 27 different tribes and tribal languages. In discussion druids of over 1000 years I think it is important to keep in mind that there was a great variety of tribes and practices; not one, united Druidism. Even if, for arguments sake we call it religion, Druidism, like present day christianity, has a multitude of variation. 2601:448:C380:57F1:81BD:A5D6:6D6C:6510 ( talk) 20:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I'm not convinced that people looking for information on what happened to the Druids on Anglesey would use Menai Massacre as a search term, what do others think? Dougweller ( talk) 15:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The term is a hapax, used by Richard Williams Morgan (1861). It's eccentric. I don't think we need a full article on a single passage in Tacitus' Annals, either. -- dab (𒁳) 13:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Druids recognised as a relgion in the UK Merlin-UK ( talk) 21:45, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to inform that this article has been nominated at Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates, for its recent official recognition in the UK. [1] Congrats! :-D -- BorgQueen ( talk) 23:31, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
wrong article, you want Neodruidism. -- dab (𒁳) 13:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
I finally took the time to research this. For several years now, we have just stated that this is a "1845 illustration". As it turns out, it is in fact an engraving dating from before 1836 which was frequently published during the 1830s to 1850s, and which is directly based on an earlier engraving published in 1719, in Bernard de Montfaucon's Antiquitas explanatione. Montfaucon himself claims that it is a depiction of a bas relief at Autun which was published yet earlier by a certain Auberi, but as this Auberi died when the second volume of his Antiquitez d'Autun was not yet complete, it doesn't really become clear whether the engraving had in fact been published before 1719, or if Montfaucon just got the picture from among Auberi's papers. Montfaucon had not seen the original relief himself, and he cites a contact from Autun assuring him, if I understand correctly, that the image he reproduces is the only one surviving, presumably from Auberi's preliminary prints.
This makes this alleged bas-relief at the same time highly interesting and highly dubious. Interesting because it is such an early record, I assume from around 1700. Highly dubious because nobody, not even Montfaucon, seems to ever have seen the relief directly. It is interesting how the relief is reflected in literature: Authors of the early to mid 19th century just reproduce the image and state that it reproduces a Roman era relief from Autun as a matter of fact. Then, the image seems to disappear from the record, although I find it reproduced in "Bell's Latin Course for the First Year in Three Parts" (1901), apparently just as clip-art for students. I have not found any further reference to it in the 20th century (excepting shoddy publications such as this (2006), which were as likely as not researched on Wikipedia). -- dab (𒁳) 10:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Any ideas on druidic connections to some secret societies, namely the Freemasons? I've read about this several times, but would need to brush up on my details before posting anything significant. Any ideas on the theories that the group survived as a secret society, influenced secret societies or influenced the early church in any significant way? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solificus ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Answer: See Thomas Paines treatise on the subject.
One Example of which is published here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/origin_free-masonry.html
Which concludes with:
" A false brother might expose the lives of many of them to destruction; and from the remains of the religion of the Druids, thus preserved, arose the institution which, to avoid the name of Druid, took that of Mason, and practiced under this new name the rites and ceremonies of Druids."
And with respect to the Druids influence upon the early church, there actually is a blurring between the early church, and the Druids. Some of the early Christian Saints, were actually Druids, themselves.
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Celtic_Christianity
"Dyfrig taught Saint Illtud (c. 425 to c. 505), the founder of the great school/seminary/abbey of Llan Illtyd Fawr (English, "Llantwit Major") in the west of South Glamorgan. Illtud was considered the most learned person in Britain, expert alike in Maths, Grammar, Philosophy, Rhetoric and Scripture. He was “by descent a Druid and a fore knower of future events”, the writer implying that there was a Druid caste."
(On a side note... Illtud is apparently related to King Arthur, of Knights of the Round Table fame. "For example, in the Life of Saint Illtud, from internal evidence apparently written around 1140, Arthur is said to be a cousin of that churchman. ")
Another quote by a 19th century antiquary, Godfrey Higgins: "In the early history of the Christian church, in Britain and Ireland, we meet with an order of priests called Culdees....They had a very celebrated monastery in the island of Iona, and others in remote situations, and these situations, by accident or design, mostly the former possessions of the Druids....The result of all the enquiries which I have made into the history of the Culdees is, that they were the last remains of the Druids, who had been converted to Christianity, before the Roman church got any footing in Britain. They were Pythagorean Druidical monks, probably Essenes, and this accounts for their easily embracing Christianity: for the Essenes were as nearly Christians as possible." (The Celtic Druids, 1829)
However, it should be noted that Higgins was possessed of some rather radical ideas, in his time. What survives historical inspection is that the early monks of Iona captured in writing what little is known about the Celtic Legends, which were mostly oral traditions. Certainly, by all records, another Saint, Saint Brigid of Ireland was a Druid, or something similar, converted to early Celtic Christianity. Druids, being a skill set bounded caste, rather than simply religion, could follow whatever deity they could see the most light, therewithin.
Unfortunately, while Druids were actually part of the early Church, and Saints, they endured persecution at various points in the churches history. Around 275ad the Papa (Pope) of Rome grew political aspirations of conquering Celtic Scotland, and many edicts specifically aimed at undermining the Celtic Church, were pronounced by the Roman Papa, such as the banning of the "edification of places and things, such as tree's, lakes or streams", a common Celtic/Druidic practice, as well as "Reincarnation". Such politically motivated dogma gave rise to the term " propaganda", coined by the later Roman Catholic Church. The Druids and their ways were "demonized" by the Church propaganda, reoccuring over and again throughout centuries, often preceding the attempted conquest of a Celtic, or Druidic influenced, Territory (Example: Germanic Tribes).
The Roman Church had quite a problem with a complete conversion of much of the Celtic region, thanks to the Druids. The Romanizing influence on the church really didn't take until the time of St. Columba who coined the phrase "Jesus is my Druid", capitalizing on the very popularity of the traditional beliefs. This resistance is owed in part to the Scottish seat of the Celts having remained unconquered by Rome, the dominant culture underlying the spread of "Romanized" Christianity. The Roman Church - Celtic Church conflicts, among others, sat among the motives for the eventual calling of the First Council of Nicaea, presided over by Constantine the Great. Constantine saw Wisdom in attempting to assert Rome as the final word in all matters ecumenical. The Emperor envisioned a future of conquering victoriously under the "Sign of the Cross".
It was Constantines cultural impact that set in motion the factors that mutated the cross of the early Christians, a circle, with an equilateral cross in the middle, to the sword-like elongated cross in more common use today. The Culdees would have interpreted the early Christian cross as the "Divine Circle", (from whence we derive the old latin term Deis (Modern: Dais) or Disc, but also the term Deity, Deus (God), and Deuce (Two).
["For there were Two Discs, One Disc to Rule the Day, and One Disc whereby to Govern the Night.."]),
having history as an early nature based symbol. And the "equilateral cross" as the "Four Directions[Natures] of the Unseen Winds", or in some writings, "Pillars of the Earth", (see Enoch) all very natural symbols. This early form of Cross is also known as the Greek Cross, for the earliest followers of Christian teachings, the Orthodox Greeks, used it as well. The same cross can be found in many cultures, and histories, many predating Christianity, such the the sun cross or Odins cross.
Eventually, thanks to Constantine, the "Equilateral Cross" mutated into the " Chi-Rho" of the Roman Christians (or Labarum), and then distended to better be representative of the sword, that the Rho was somewhat reminiscent thereof. Cultural artifacting of this earlier Cross is exhibited by Celtic Church symbols, including the Celtic Cross of Iona, The Greek Orthodox Church, and many Protestant Church symbols, and their cultural heirs.. as well as the ones in the earliest Catacombs of the Martyrs.
Near the end of the middle ages, the German word for Pentagram, "Drudenfuss", (literally "Druids Foot") was mistranslated by the church propaganda as "Witches Foot", about the time The Pope, Innocent VIII, issued his now famous Bull, " Summis desiderantes," in 1484, claiming "Germany was filled with Witches". This inflamed the fervor of " Witch Hunting" that was to span several centuries, winding down finally, around the time of the Salem Trials. By then, the damage had been done, Druids had become intimately associated with Witches, who had become associated with Evil, when in fact many were counted among the Saints, Monks, and Bishops of the early Church, itself.
Hello, could someone please tell me what was wrong with my very well cited edit on welsh literature?. I'm finding this quite frustrating as it is so very incorrect I am Welsh and living in Wales associated with Druids (still in practice)- which has ALWAYS been a part of Wales although this hasnt been stated. Paganism is my religion and believe you me there are plenty of Druids in Wales, Celebrating the festivals reciting poetry so on. Paganism is something that has be passed down to me through my grandmother (a tea leave reader/witch)- Also there is nothing about Scotland. Druidism isnt simply ONLY an Irish belief ITS CELTIC. \ sort it out please. my well cited edit, was just as strong as the cited text there (if not even more cited)- with extra links and footnotes from where it has been stated in books. with 2 from scholars (1800) paganisn and Druids was something in wales that become covanted (secret covans) in Wales- where no names were shared and the magical practices kept in secret for year and still the only way most pagans and Druids practice in Wales to this day - never stating the names of the people they practice with. Due to the fact that from 1066 onwards and the Norman conquest it was against the law to not be Catholic and punishable by death. Hitting Ireland harder as we full well know they are Catholics now. Though Wales isnt Catholic at all. You will find this similar story in Scotland. This proves that Druidism was very much alive up until 1066. I will be prepared to cite this aswel also.
I have cited this "Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/
Also there is nothing of the mention of "high priestesses" who are the female equivalent, nothing of the mention of welsh ranking, of certain people in power from other covans that influence the writings of lower covans. nothing of the pagan festivals found in Wales where either the high priestess or Druid will lead the ceremony. the ecinox imbulc summer and winter soltice (the festivals) There is nothing of the mention of Welsh pagan and Druid gatherings not ceremonial called "moots"- mostly a social gathering where pagans drink.
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO GET A HIGH PRIESTESS OR DRUID FROM WALES THAT I KNOW TO HELP YOU WRITE THIS PROPERLY?
Druidism arrived in Britain from the western European Gauls (Celtic) and infiltrated in Britain and Ireland simultaneously simply because Irish and Welsh are 2 separate languages this is not a clear indication of anything. what you have placed is incorrect. Being a part of the Christian church, was an old form of taxation. and something most people did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.0.33 ( talk) 18:31, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
please look at the ratings for the page, 11 for heavily biased (1 bar) and 12 for missing most information (1 bar)- I am 100% certain that those were from Welsh people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.20.186 ( talk) 00:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
"In Wales, the roles and privileges of bards related to laws set down by Hywel Dda in the 10th century AD. During the 18th century, druids came to be seen as the ancestors of the bards, the praise poets, musicians and genealogists, who flourished in Welsh medieval society." http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/ "Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/.
druidism and paganism is a very highly complex religion, that after many many years of being in practice you will rise from rank to rank. Which is widely practiced in Wales still. A great deal of Welsh history books literature, poetry and paintings were burnt in the 1400 AD approx, as an act against the Welsh language. Starting riots and the return of the King Owain Gwylndr (1410-1400) who led a residence against King Henry the 5th England. The surviving manuscripts have been compiled and show druidism all the way through. the neo-druidic heresy.
Druid King, Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon was the inspiration behind the Welsh flag ( Y ddraig goch)- the red dragon, and the common beliefs in mythological creatures- ie Dragons, which can be found ALL throughout welsh literature (quite badly) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.20.186 ( talk) 00:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Druidism arrived in Britain from the western European Gauls (Celtic) and infiltrated in Britain and Ireland simultaneously simply because Irish and Welsh are 2 separate languages this is not a clear indication of anything. what you have placed is incorrect. Being a part of the Christian church, was an old form of taxation (you payed your taxes through the church). and something most people did., could someone please tell me what was wrong with my very well cited edit on welsh literature?. I'm finding this quite frustrating as it is so very incorrect.I am Welsh and living in Wales associated with Druids (still in practice)- which has ALWAYS been a part of Wales although this hasnt been stated. Paganism is my religion and believe you me there are plenty of Druids in Wales, Celebrating the festivals reciting poetry so on. Paganism is something that has be passed down to me through my grandmother (a tea leave reader/witch)- Also there is nothing about Scotland. Druidism isnt simply ONLY an Irish belief ITS CELTIC. \ sort it out please. my well cited edit, was just as strong as the cited text there (if not even more cited)- with extra links and footnotes from where it has been stated in books. with 2 from scholars (1800)
paganisn and Druids was something in wales that become covanted (secret covans) in Wales- where no names were shared and the magical practices kept in secret for years and still the only way most pagans and Druids practice in Wales to this day - never stating the names of the people they practice with. Due to the fact that from 1066 onwards and the Norman conquest it was against the law to not be Catholic and punishable by death. Hitting Ireland harder as we full well know they are Catholics now. Though Wales isnt Catholic at all (but as everyone knows has a very small population). You will find this similar story in Scotland. This proves that Druidism was very much alive up until 1066. I will be prepared to cite this aswel also.
Also there is nothing of the mention of "high priestesses" who are the female equivalent, nothing of the mention of welsh ranking, of certain people in power from other covans that influence the writings of lower covans. nothing of the pagan festivals found in Wales where either the high priestess or Druid will lead the ceremony. the ecinox imbulc summer and winter soltice (the festivals) There is nothing of the mention of Welsh pagan and Druid gatherings not ceremonial called "moots"- mostly a social gathering where pagans drink.
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO GET A HIGH PRIESTESS OR DRUID FROM WALES THAT I KNOW TO HELP YOU WRITE THIS PROPERLY?
Also the Gauls spoke a Brythonic language as well as the Welsh. In addition to Christianity. my grandmother who was a witch told very few people (as all pagans and Druids are like) and told people that she was Christian but prayed at home. for reasons she wouldn't even tell me. But very frequently read my tealeaves, passed it onto my mother then me. the system is- old hag- witch- and the beauty. But she preferred witch.
Also national poetry competitions to place the bards is currently ongoing in Wales, (the 10 best poets are named bards). I should know as I dated one and they don't practice human sacrifice anymore I should know as I'm still alive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.141.62 ( talk) 23:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.157.36 ( talk) 16:58, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller ( talk • contribs)
Welsh literature is missing a VAST amount of information, pure ignorance like this will solve nothing. If you must disagree with everything I have typed ( a solution to the pathetic 2 ended answer)- follow the research yourself. until then you will continually receive bad ratings 11 for heavily biased (one bar) and missing most information (1 bar)- I completely agree with these ratings. leah
As well as having a History degree, I am also a popularized illustrator/designer for t-shirts and jumpers. you write whatever plagiarism you like and I will be producing a t-shirt that says " they say it will take 1,000 monkey's with a 1,000 typewriters and a 100 years to type the bible. they say it will take a Billion wikkipedia editors, a billion years to type a wealth of incorrect information. the monkey bible would be better" as you wont change it and this is plagiarism, people will find this t-shirt funny, because wikkipedia has a notorious bad name. thankyou for your ignorance, I will start designing the lettering sometime this week.you stick to what your good and I'll stick to what I'm good at — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
"Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" just pay attention to it. then read whats there- its contradictory. it states that the welsh (in Britain) were influenced by the Irish terms (?) , also stated as a possibility- the riddle is solved- the answer is above. sorry I'm annoyed that's all- leah mainwaring Also mryddin wllyt was born in carmarthen that is fact, druid does mean "oak-knower" just like you stated, and we kept that stupid branch from his oak tree for years in Carmarthenshire County Museum. your not paying any attention at all. Why I'm frustrated, yes maybe it was written badly (my fault) but yes these things are common known fact, and have been for years. you seem to be missing the point entirely, that's all. http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=merlin%27s+oak&um=1&hl=en&biw=800&bih=507&tbm=isch&tbnid=7fYJE4baNzRUCM:&imgrefurl=http://www.carmarthen.info/oldoak.htm&docid=p-_SfGFwMQQk5M&w=250&h=330&ei=0gxcTvDaBJGu8QOJ9emWDA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=521&page=1&tbnh=129&tbnw=98&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=62&ty=53
Myrddin Wyllt and Vita Merlini how could you ignore these things?- what I was trying to say
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
31.96.232.202 (
talk)
21:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
The dates are incorrect.you seem to be forgetting the pagan god gaeya (mother nature). The expression goes where I'm from why don't you go and teach a granny how to suck eggs. In other words- your trying to write about Welsh history, Ronald hulton is wrong.Druids derived from Gaul and Britain. And welsh people weren't influenced by the Irish as you should full well know the Britons (welsh) populated England as well meaning at that time it only would have been welsh history. On the note of Merlyn or any other historical figure- what you have typed is purely opinions. Paganism was very much alive in welsh and gaulish cultures (then passed onto) irish . You have typed something which is far too misleading and incorrect. As far as Italy is concerned, the roman empire caused the dark ages (where nothing was written correctly) and only would have been influenced by the celtic beliefs after invading britain and enslaving (massacring the gauls) what your sourcing is a classic case of "the victor writes history"- http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937 you need to read this and educate yourself with welsh history on that topic. By the way it doesnt matter what has been written about Myrddin outside of welsh literature regarding his life. oak-knower Druid and the pagan god Gaeaya (mother nature) outside of Wales has turned into something outlandishly ridiculous and far far from its original meaning, far enough, enough crap has been written about myrddin over the years but that doesnt retract from our, mythological historical literature and way of life. plus Vortigern was the first celebrated King of the Britons (Welsh) and reigned from Wales (spoke the old Brythonic)- with his 12 druids you say (?) yet we had none (?). I know "oak-knower' druids- like you would say that to you say live in (hippie communes) to me they live in the woodlands in roundhouses, they're more learned on the topic of welsh history. And aren't ceremonial yet would only marry by ribbon binding- the lifestyle of druids in wales is different- yet they all believe in magic. The concept of oak-knower is simply the freedom and spirit of nature and yourself, inner alignments good and bad energies- tarot card reading. It is what people call "spiritual"- all the hooky coaky nonsense of crystal healing astrology and that sort of stuff comes from wales. age old traditions. there's millions of them from tee-pee vally to callwallon woods from horltsfield woods to olwen woods and networked all across Wales. The men are all oak-knower druids- to you- a man that lives in the woods that believes in magic. luckily for you they wont read what has been typed to be offended- as they usually don't have p.c's- so write what you will.
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
31.96.41.36 (
talk)
16:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
that the earliest mention of Druids came from Britain and Gaul, ie not influenced by Ireland the other way around. there is no denying of the pagan influence in Wales also- Caerfyddin from (myrddin)- and merlins oak. close to tee-pee vally where he lived, a town named after where he was born. a town in between Caerfyddin and swansea called "kidwelly" meaning "the black cat" the road sign for it has a black cat also. Behind glass in Swansea library there are ancient witches spells books covered in dust- in Caerfyddin there are books about merlin (ancient) I can't be bothered the name the rest. But you seem to have typed that that was ALL influenced through ireland, INCORRECT. it is the former option that ronald hulton proposed. our flag itself comes from magical beliefs. You simply cannot just read one sentence in a large book a poo-poo everything. Not all humans are right about things. Ive been to Ireland myself and stayed for a very long time hitch hiking with pagans and druids to do sight seeing- I actually found far less people into that kind of stuff anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.41.36 ( talk) 17:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
firstly I couldnt be more clear than what I have said A- the first recordings of druids come from britain and gaul not ireland in the 1st century BC. fact. the latter proposal is incorrect on the basis that "druidae" was written in britain and by the gauls (not in ireland) and that "drwy" in Welsh is our language he is wrong so very wrong. I could put that ireland was influenced by us saying "druidae" which is actually more accurate , the term was borrowed from Ireland- it's wrong. He simply proposes 2 things, he doesn't state anything. I could find a single sentence in a book and place it in such a way that its misleading as well and B- this may or may not be accurate from the 6th century- http://one-evil.org/people/people_06c_david.htm this- and the traditions that were left wasn't borrowed from Ireland. Also there were no druids? you say? although you have put a Welsh king ON the page with the story of 12 Druids. Briton King reigned from Wales spoke the "old welsh" get it right. king geraint- approx year 600AD http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=king+geraint&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&biw=800&bih=507&tbm=isch&tbnid=8FNAroKVLgodYM:&imgrefurl=http://members.fortunecity.com/aurelius222/geraint.html&docid=YjhpDzAgk6upvM&w=235&h=417&ei=LTFdTv75H8a28QPUxNjJAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=259&vpy=26&dur=60&hovh=299&hovw=168&tx=105&ty=147&page=1&tbnh=108&tbnw=61&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0 recorded king dispite what it says about king arthur— Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.128.234 ( talk) 18:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
dont disgrace my flag, people or history, beliefs(mythological) anymore . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.230.104 ( talk) 20:17, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I already provided sources from historians but that was deleted. I have already done this. this is completely wrong, completely completely completely wrong. like I said I am a clothes designer/illustrator. and popularized as well. this will be my next t-shirt after I have finished the lettering. "they say that 1,000 monkeys with a 1,000 typewriters with a 100 years years could type the bible. They say that a billion wikkipedia editors with a billion computers and a million years will produce a wealth of incorrect information"
people will find this hilarious mainly because wikkipedia has such a bad name. and I can see why now, it is simply plagiarism. one line from a book portrayed in a certain way can produce something that appears a 1,000 times different. you are very ignorant people for not being able to see that ALL of our historical literature is mythological and magical. this IS degrading and disgracing. like I said before. this page has 11 ratings for heavily biased and 12 for missing most information. people already know better than whats there. this is the kind of stuff that gives wikkipedia a bad name and I can completely see why. hence when I produce a t-shirt (that isn't an illustrated design) I 100% make sure that the witty comments will work and sell. obviously I havent tried to edit wikkipedia for that reason, but this t-shirt will sell. thankyou very very much for your time, you have misinformed yourselves with incorrect information and I will soon be making a great deal of money from one design in the pipeline.
you disgrace my flag (being a dragon from magical beliefs) I disgrace you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.143.113 ( talk) 21:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I also have a history degree- and a further more extensive knowledge on welsh/Celtic history, quite obviously. people take the piss out of "where you stick" because your always wrong. At least my t-shirt sell. how dare you say what you've said in this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.148.35 ( talk) 00:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Irish mythology - Welsh mythology - Celtic Christianity - Magic and Religion - the welsh Druids described as seer and Prophets (diviners) the Irish druids described as (diviners) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.103.45.51 ( talk) 18:41, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
not a problem-
please see my attempted input.
Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. [1]. The faith was firmly established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission [2]. Though information during these two periods are sparse. [3] It has been expressed during that duration the bards and prophets that featured heavily in medieval Welsh literature, that the druids were thier true ancestors. [4] [5]. It is known that the prophet Myrddin Wyllt (c. 540 - c. 584), later became personified as Merlin, [6] and representive of Magic and religion in Britain. The inspiration for the Flag of Wales came from the end of the 6th century, from King Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon (Y Ddraig Goch) the red dragon. Afirming the Belief in mythological gaints. Through the growth of Christianity in Britain. [7]
please check all of the citations- references and I hope you better this article :).
leahxx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.39.144 ( talk) 16:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
There has been a lot of to-ing and fro-ing in the last few days with no meaningful discussion on the talk page here. Please, both sides, do discuss your content and objections to it here rather than simply reverting and re-inserting. If all else fails I will fully protect this page for a while, to allow you time to discuss it here. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 15:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
please check all of the citations for this attempted edit, and try to excuse my early frustration and anger. (I am unfamiliar with Wikipedia).
please check citations-
Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. [8]. The faith was firlmy established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission [9]. Though information during these two periods is sparse. [10] It has been expressed during that duration the bards and prophets that featured heavily in medieval Welsh literature, that the druids were thier true ancestors. [11] [12]. It is known that the prophet Myrddin Wyllt (c. 540 - c. 584), later became personified as Merlin, [13] and representive of Magic and religion in Britain. The inspiration for the Flag of Wales came from the end of the 6th century, from King Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon (Y Ddraig Goch) the red dragon. Afirming the Belief in mythological gaints. Through the growth of Christianty in Britain. [14] — Preceding unsigned comment added by leah27011987 ( talk) 16:16, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
you obviously havent taken the time to read it or check the citations- it suits what has been said above it under welsh literature. and yes it is relevant. thankyou — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.41.168 ( talk) 16:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
the point is- Welsh literature
Whilst druids featured prominently in many medieval Irish sources, they were far rarer in their Welsh counterparts. Unlike the Irish texts, the Welsh term commonly seen as referring to the druids, dryw, was used to refer purely to prophets and not to sorcerers or pagan priests. Historian Ronald Hutton noted that there were two explanations for the use of the term in Wales: the first was that it was a survival from the pre-Christian era, when dryw had been ancient priests, whilst the second was that the Welsh had borrowed the term from the Irish, as had the English (who used the terms dry and drycraeft to refer to magicians and magic respectively, most probably influenced by the Irish terms.)[60]
suggests two ultimatums.
my input suggests-
Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. [15]. The faith was firlmy established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission [16]. Though information during these two periods is sparse. [17]
"whilst the second was that the Welsh had borrowed the term from the Irish, as had the English (who used the terms dry and drycraeft to refer to magicians and magic respectively, most probably influenced by the Irish terms.)[60]"
is a strong opinion, which I strongly disagree with. More research needs to me made. The Red Book of Hergest contained enough magic to interest Tolkien, who named the Red Book of Westmarch after our book, a collection of lord of the rings, written by hobbits. The point being is that's a lot of magic to be "claimed" as Irish. So I disagree having read my books as well. Welsh literature is riddled with tales of magic, Arthurian legend, king Arthur, Merlin, sword Excalibur, dragon slaying so on can only predominately be found in Welsh literature. It is a very very very bold thing to say that ALL OF THAT came from Ireland. Please look at the dates again and realize that a pro ceremonial pagan created this opinion. It— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I can't see it but yes Hywel dda placed down the laws for the bards in the 10th century (who were deemed to be the successors of the druids)
it suits this part of the article-
Possible late survival of Insular druidism The best evidence of a druidic tradition in the British Isles is the independent cognate of the Celtic *druwid- in Insular Celtic: The Old Irish druídecht survives in the meaning of "magic", and the Welsh dryw in the meaning of "seer".
While the druids as a priestly caste were extinct with the Christianization of Wales, complete by the 7th century at the latest, the offices of bard and of "seer" (Welsh: dryw) persisted in medieval Wales into the 13th century."
-I believe that as during the time of 407ad to the end of the 6th century information in Britain regarding Christianity being sparse- this calls for more reading. which I will do and wont bother you for a while until I've sussed it out. comment added by Leah27011987 ( talk • contribs) 00:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
yes I've found it, lovely.
References
"They recognised the authority of a single leader, who would rule till their death". Grammatically, "their" is tied to "They", so the author appears to be claiming that the ruler would rule until the Druid class were all dead (though the singular "death" creates some grammatical ambiguity). But I don't think that is what he really meant. Try replacing "their" with "his". If one wishes to allow for the possibility that the leader could be female, substitute "her or his".
Alan1000 ( talk) 11:28, 8 November 2011 (UTC)alan1000
"Bog bodies, said to show ritual sacrifice..." I think the article could emphasise more clearly that everything written about 'sacrifice' is hypothesis and speculation, not just 'pure', but occasionally bordering upon 'wild'. The Druids probably practised human sacrifice at some stage (as, indeed, did the Romans); but it would be indefensible to judge them by the accounts of the ancient Roman commentators who, to a greater or lesser degree, were propagandists. Would you write an account of the Palestinian Intifada, based solely upon American or Israeli sources? Julius Caesar was naturally determined to paint the blackest picture he could, to justify his policy of summarily executing every Druid priest on sight, with the aim of the total extermination of the class. He knew exactly what needed to be done to destroy social cohesion in Gaul and Britain.
There is not one shred - not one single piece - of hard, objective evidence to show that the 'threefold' executions of the Bog Bodies (though undoubtedly formal in nature) were carried out for religious-sacrificial purposes. You could just as well say that they were the standard judical penalty for (say) incest, or patricide, with no particular religious connotation. And nobody could adduce a single piece of evidence to prove you wrong.
Alan1000 ( talk) 12:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC) Alan Masterman
Just verifying because I've seen this start fights elsewhere: The earliest version of this article to use any dating system used the common era dating system. Ian.thomson ( talk) 02:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I noticed "Druid" shares an etymological connection with "Dryad". Are there any other noted connections between the two? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.147.172.70 ( talk) 00:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
The BBC radio programme In Our Time just had a show on Druids yesterday. You can listen/download it here: [5]. It featured professors Barry Cunliffe, Miranda Aldhouse-Green, and Justin Champion. Maybe some editors might be interested in listening to it.-- Brianann MacAmhlaidh ( talk) 09:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps a touch of satire from Archdruid of Canterbury Visits Orthodox Patriarch might be included?
CJSHayward ( talk) 00:47, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Although this is not historically relevant, is there an interest in adding a short subsection that can overview the depiction of
druids in popular culture, such as in fantasy-themed RPGs like
D&D and
Diablo (series)?
ozhu
量 (
talk·
contribs)
23:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I have just met a person who practices the druid religion. I was surprises to see that there was little information on the modern day religious practices and beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.142.30.24 ( talk) 01:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Several editors have been adding assertions that the ancient Druids included both men and women. Do we have any ancient testimony to support that point? Thomas Amory's Memoirs of several Ladies of Great Britain (1755) is not exactly a reliable source: 18th century authors were notorious for inventing Celtic history out of whole cloth. I find no mention of female Druids in Caesar's account; are there any good sources? Otherwise, this claim should be removed. -- Elphion ( talk) 13:58, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I sadly just read your conclusion section of the article on Druids. I appreciate that you quoted properly Stuart Piggott, Barry Cunliffe and Miranda Alhouse-Green, but I wish you would have at least included Peter Berresford Ellis in part of your summary, as he offers a well researched alternative to your conclusion. His view that the use of human sacrifice by the Druids was based more on anti-Druid Roman prejudice than on actual documented truth is compelling. Most of the Roman sources relate to Poseidonios (whether he is given as source or not) including Julius Caesar, and the fact that the Romans never forgave the Celts for sacking Rome in the 300's BCE. While to say that there was not any human sacrifice may be overstressing the point, I feel it is fairer to state that the use of human sacrifice was probably only used sparingly and during times of great national stress (i.e. the Roman invasion of Britain) if it was used at all.
Charles Kilker 99.100.130.90 ( talk) 18:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the unreliable source? tag just before source 33 under Sacrifice, the sentence reading " Peter Berresford Ellis, a Celtic nationalist who authored The Druids (1994), believed them to be the equivalents of the Indian Brahmin caste, and considered accusations of human sacrifice to remain unproven,[unreliable source?][33] ...":
The issue seems to be that some readers consider Ellis to be an unreliable historian because he writes for wider audiences and doesn't cite his sources as often as more academic historians would. But in this particular case, the sentence isn't talking about any factual claim he made (e.g. "The druids practiced this."). All it's saying is that he himself, in his book, made a comparison to the Indian Brahmin caste and he himself didn't consider the claims of human sacrifice to be reliable. So this isn't a case of someone needing to go look in the book and then find the source he used, like it would be if we were talking about a factual claim, rather than his own opinions.
Based on this, I don't think it makes sense to keep the unreliable source? tag there. I think we should either remove the tag, or remove that part of the sentence that states his opinions, but continuing to have the tag there for no reason doesn't make sense to me. Aduff01 ( talk) 03:22, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Hey folks—why is Ronald Hutton mentioned in this page no less than 12 times? Exactly why is he given so much prominence here? Is this because he has produced some popular audience books that are easily to get ahold of or what? Seriously, this article reads like a promotional piece regarding Hutton and portrays him as far more of an authority than he is on the topic—he is no specialist in Celtic studies. In fact, Hutton is a particularly poor source when it comes to Germanic studies and he doesn't seem to be much better when it comes to Celtic studies. Perhaps his opinion should appear where it's relevant and besides that of other scholars, but right now the prominence of Hutton on this article is outright ridiculous.
Until this has been sorted out, I've placed a neutrality tag on the article. :bloodofox: ( talk) 22:36, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
It needs to be removed unless specific arguments are made here clearly related to our NPOV policy. Hopefully the editor will either start a section on that or remove it. Dislike of a source isn't enough, and I've already given it a tag relating to sources. Doug Weller talk 21:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
First, I agree that he's been overused and that we need more sources.
But removing every bit of text sourced to him, and even text sourced to someone else, is not a sensible way to handle the issue of whether and how we use Hutton. WP:BRD should have been followed, and even if an editor decided not to, after my discussion above other means to deal with the issue should have been followed, not just a massive deletion - unless of course it was certain that all the text deleted was wrong, etc.
So let's take this by stages. I've replaced most of the deleted material. I've added a tag at the top of the article querying the reliability of the sources. I've removed some of the material sourced to Hutton. I've added a couple of fact tags.
Blood and Mistletoe is definitely not a "pop culture" book - which academics have suggested it is? Hutton does say he wrote The Druids, for the popular market, but this was published by an academic press. I'm saving this now as I have to go out, more in an hour. Doug Weller talk 13:01, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Doug Weller talk 15:51, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Just to note that Miranda Aldhouse-Green's review (which I have) of Blood and Magic states: "In the first chapter, Hutton reviews the source material--the ancient literature of Graeco-Roman authors that first propelled a group of elite politico-religious leaders into the imaginations of their peers. He rightly points out that no archaeological evidence points unequivocally to the existence of Druids, and since they were operating within a Gallo-British context of the later centuries BC that was almost entirely non-literate, assumes that absence is to be expected." Should we use some of this instead of Hutton? I've removed the duplicate use of Hutton's quote on this, leaving the one in the lead, although I see it doesn't have his name. Doug Weller talk 12:26, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Although I can find otherwise reliable sources that say John Toland founded this (as the order itself claims), I believe that Hutton is correct. "John Toland, the Druids, and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship" by J. A. I. Champion in "Irish Historical Studies" Vol. 32, No. 127 (May, 2001), pp. 321-342 which I have doesn't claim this, nor so far as I can see does A Political Biography of John Toland. [13] The Rise of Modern Mythology, 1680-1860, an Indiana University Press publication, says Toland attacked them (as do other less reliable sources). [14] Doug Weller talk 13:16, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
A review of Ann Ross's book Druids [15] in Antiquity says "The earliest mention of Druids in antiquity seems to occur in a lost Peripatetic 3rd-oentury BD essay called the 'Magikos'. Not long after. Sotion of Alexandria classified them with Chaldean mystics. Persian Magi. Greek Pythagoreans and Indian 'Gymnosophistai*. all given to enigmatic philosophical and theological inodes of expression. So Diogenes Laertius tells us in his variably useful biographical history of the philosophers. Much later, in the 3rd century AD. emperors-in-waiting. Alexander Severus. Diocletian and Amelian are reported to have received obscurely hinting prophecies from female Druids. Perhaps we should suspect propaganda."
John Koch's book Celtic Culture says "According to Diogenes Laertius (Jl. earlier jnd century ad?), Aristotle referred to the druids as follows: Some say that the study of philosophy first developed among the barbarians. For the Persians had their Magi, the Babylonians or Assyrians their Chaldeans, the Indians their Gymnosophists, while the Celts and Galatae had those called Druids and Semnotheoi, according to Aristotle in the Mtgiais and Sotion in the 2jrd book of his Successions.", adding "It is not certain whether this remark has been correctly attributed to Aristotle, but since Alexandrian Greek authors make similar reports this literary tradition must at least go back some centuries before Diogenes Laertius." [16]
So we can use these sources instead of Hutton. Doug Weller talk 13:37, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Severus Alexander and Diocletian are significant emperors. But who the heck is this "Amelian"? Dimadick ( talk) 06:15, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
I've removed Hutton's comment on classical sources and realised that Posidonius is not mentioned in the article, although he is the likely source for Strabo, Diodorus Siculus and even Caesar. His article comments on this but is unsourced. One source, Judaism of the Second Temple Period: Sages and Literature by David Flusser [17] gives a bit of detail concerning similar wording.
Barry Cunliffe's little book says "The scholar J. J. Tierney, who some 50 years ago attempted to reconstruct the Celtic ethnography of Posidonius, argued that much of what was said of the Celts by Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Athenaeus, and Caesar was derived directly from the lost Histories. This is certainly so of Athenaeus, who explicitly says he is quoting from the twenty-third book of Posidonius' Histories, and there are certain close similarities in the accounts of Diodorus Siculus and Strabo which suggest that they too used this source, though not necessarily exclusively. Caesar poses a different problem. He may have been aware of the Posidonian account, but he is also likely to have gleaned much from personal observations made as he fought his way through Gaul. For this reason, we will deal with his contribution separately later. If we accept that Athenaeus, Strabo, and Diodorus Siculus all relied heavily on Posidonius as a source for the Celts, then what they say must be based largely on a text composed in the first half of the 1st century BC by a scholar who had visited the area and had seen the rapidly changing society for himself. While his philosophical stance may have influenced his presentation, his observations are likely to have been accurately made from real-life situations." [18]
The Iron Age in Lowland Britain By D.W. Harding, Derek William Harding [19] also uses Tierney commenting that Strabo and Diodorus "must be treated with caution, for, as Tierney reminds us, they are themselves capable of confusing what Posidonius reported, even if the latter himself were accurate in the first place. For instance, the ability to reconcile two opposing armies on the verge of combat is attributed by Diodorus to the bards, and by Strabo to the druids. Indeed, it is not easy to distinguish in terms of precise functions and powers between the threefold ranks of druids, bards and seers (votes) who are mentioned by Strabo, Diodorus and Ammianus Marccllinus (Ammianus Marcellinus, 15, IX, 8), all depending directly or indirectly upon Posidonius. It is not the purpose of the present study to compare in detail the texts of these various classical writers, a task which has already been undertaken elsewhere (Tierney, i960, 223) ...There can be little doubt that Caesar exaggerated the importance of the druids, to the extent of attributing to them powers and functions that elsewhere were divided between the three classes. His motive in doing so was presumably to demonstrate the politico-religious threat which they represented to Rome, and to justify their suppression."
I have a copy of J. J. Tierney, “The Celtic Ethnography of Posidonius,” Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy no. 60 (1960) by the way. Doug Weller talk 12:12, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Ammianus Marcellinus? The 4th-century historian? But his history starts in the late 1st century, what possible knowledge of druids could he have? Dimadick ( talk) 06:08, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Druidess already redirects here. Despite this, User:Bard Cadarn went ahead and created both the above page and an unneeded disambig, Druidess (disambiguation), and another short, inadequately-sourced article with almost identical content at Gallizenae (as this user was the only editor, I have turned it into a redirect to this article. @ Bard Cadarn:, if you can properly source that content, merge it here or into the other article under discussion, don't edit war. I propose merging what little non-duplicated, sourced & usable content is at Druidess (Celtic mythology) into this article (as the same user has already started doing), then deleting that and the unneeded disambig (ETA: As it was a wordy redirect, not an actual disambig, I got bold and deleted it). I also strongly suggest avoiding the outdated, clunky term, "druidess" and instead just say "druid" or, if necessary, "female druid" or its Celtic language equivalents, such as the O.I. bandrúi. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 16:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
The Druidess (Celtic mythology) was on the See Also part of the Druid page for eons, CorbieV. It was not exactly hidden. And, again, Gallizenae is just an English translation of what I found on the French Wikipedia. Besides, Druidess (Celtic mythology) uses all approved sources and draws from a plethora of other articles. It contradicts nothing. Again, where is the problem? I can see why one might want to merge Druidess (Celtic mythology) and Gallizenae, though, so would that work? -- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 18:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
Which article, Doug Weller? Merge Gallizenae into Druidess (Celtic mythology) or Druid? -- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 18:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I've removed the claim about Caesar referring to the Gallizenae. The page of the book cited is from the introductory essay in the 1890 edition: Here's the full book linked at Archive.org, if, like me, you can only see it in snippet view on Google Books. The reference is to page 111, but I can't link directly to it. -- Nicknack009 ( talk) 13:41, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Why remove it, Nicknack009? Both George William Joseph Stock's and Emanuel Hoffmann's translation of the De bello Gallico say that Caesar referred to the Gallizenae. Is there evidence that this claim is in fact untrue - and, if so, where? -- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 18:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
If you are going to have a redirect from a previous independent page/article, the title of the merged page should correspond to the merged section reflecting the subject of the original page. "Female Druid" does not fulfill this role, and only works to confuse people looking for the original page, which had been up on wiki for quite some time. As there is a painting by Alexandre Cabanel originally entitled "La Druidesse" from 1868 gracing the section, the word "Druidess" obviously has some historical connotation; and I would think it doubtful that he coined the term. Surely it existed previously? In any case, after one hundred and forty-eight years of use I think it is a legitimate modern word to describe what we are talking about. "Female Druid" sounds silly, and a little sexist/demeaning, despite their somewhat apparent similar roles in society. "There are several Irish words for female druids - such as bandrúi ("woman-druid")" I found nothing on the Táin Bó Cúailnge page citing this word, nor the source indicating that bandrui means "woman-druid". This needs to be cited or explained better. This sentence made no sense so I added the word with: Bodhmall, featured in the Fenian Cycle, is one of Fionn mac Cumhaill's childhood caretakers and Tlachtga, the daughter of the druid Mug Ruith according to Irish tradition is associated with the Hill of Ward, which was the site of prominent festivals in Tlachtga's honour during the Middle Ages." During...not in! If it is happening within a time span during is a more accurate word. The Tuatha Dé Danannare are a people, not a club; therefore this sentence should read: "Biróg, another druidess of the Tuatha De Danann, plays a key role in an Irish folktale where the Fomorian warrior Balor attempts to thwart a prophecy foretelling he would be killed by his own grandson; imprisoning his only daughter Eithne in the tower of Tory Island, away from any contact with men." It is written this way below, so I assume this is just a typo? ALSO: Not sure how you "frustrate" a prophecy...but it sounds hard! I have instead changed this word to "thwart". I think it is more appropriate for what is trying to be conveyed. My main concern with this article, and the original Druidess page, is that it has changed quite a bit in the short amount of time since I first cited it in a paper. I like that some material in the section has been more accurately sited and improved; but I imagine as more material is gathered, the Druidess entry might gain enough information to once again warrant its own page. Not sure who made the decision to merge the similar topics, but I am afraid I don't think it was a good one. Especially as there was no corresponding title in the Druid article to match up with the original page I cited. Had someone tried to look up my citation, they would have been lost! As an additional suggestion...can't remember if this is a possibility, I don't often add or edit on Wiki...but could the Redirect be made to immediately take someone to the actual Druidess section rather than the top of the page? All other edits were simply grammatical in nature, in order to make the piece more easily read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by joseph_setorius ( talk • [[Special:Contributions/joseph_setorius]] contribs) 09:50, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I beg to differ that Druid is gender neutral. If it was, there wouldn't have been a need to come up with different words/terms for them in the original Irish sources; right? If druid is truly "gender neutral" as you posit, then there shouldn't be any reason to use the terms "female-druid" or "woman-druid"; as it should be obvious. But there are some obvious examples in the section that need to state this clarification. If you prefer to use the term "bandrúi" as it contains more historical context than Druidesses...es (ha ha) that we are talking about, this seems appropriate. I am not sure if "Neo-Druidism", Wicca, or the Ancient Order of Druids (according to Wiki founded 1781) use the term Druidess, but would agree that there is no definitive link between ancient Druidism and modern varieties/variations. Nor am I associated with any of these movements. I thought I should state that since many people that seem to have edited this page, or complained about it in the past are associated with one of these "mystic religions" or social orders; and seem to want to use the word "Druidry", a term I have never seen in print before. As far as your comment "except perhaps that there is a misconception that all druids were men"...as we know so little of the ancient Druids, there may have in fact been a time, or regions that did only have male Druids...but I just don't think there is enough information one way or the other; and unfortunately Greek and Roman sources, though informative on some level, are also often unreliable. Though Tacitus and Plutarch are certainly two of the more reliable sources in my opinion. Therefore Corbie V, I am going to replace all instances of "woman-druid" and "female-druid" with the term "bandrúi" as this seems to be the best compromise. It is a toss-up whether I find "Druidry" or "woman-druid" more ridiculous sounding. Hopefully you will agree! I also added Druidess in parenthesis so there was some consistency between older pages/edits and new Corbie. But if this really bothers anyone, feel free to remove it. I just think there ought to be some continuity between the older versions and this one. regardless of the accuracy of the term. Thanks-- joseph_setorius ☊ ☼ 16:00, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Nicknack, good point that if we're including Gallizenae, whatever they were, as a subsection we shouldn't use the Irish as the section header. Joseph, there is no consensus for "druidess," rather, some stuff that no one had bothered to work on. I say we stick with "female druids". As for "druid" being gender neutral, again, I'm talking about modern English usage, which is what we write in here on en-wiki. When we're quoting sources, be they Irish or Victorian or whatever, we should use whatever term is in that direct quote. For the rest, we're not using Victorian language that appends an "-ess" on every normal profession to indicate how frightfully weird it is that a 'woman would do such a thing (fetch the fainting couch and corset!). Sorry. But seriously... - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 23:28, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
On the flip side...there is the word actress. So would you refer to Michelle Pfeiffer as "The actor Michelle Pfeiffer" ? Just because a term originated in the Victorian era doesn't mean it isn't, or can't be used presently. Undoubtedly there are many words with Victorian origins that are commonly used words today. Furthermore, this term IS used in modern parlance by many different groups. From neo-pagan religions and role-playing supplements, to university essays. The real argument is "Will people understand what this term means?" And the answer is YES! Your stated logic is equally ridiculous, and the entire point of using the heading "Druidess", was to have some continuity with the deleted page that had been up at least two years. In this way people searching for the previous article could easily reference/find the relocated material. Furthermore, it doesn't hurt, obfuscate, or "devalue" the content of the article in any way. I have added this fact to the heading, and really there shouldn't be any reason not to include this, except your ego. Sincerely-- joseph_setorius ☊ ☼ 15:06, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
I did...did you change it? I am really confused why including one word in parenthesis bothers you so much. Do you not think it is a good idea to cite the previous page that was up? And if so...why? If you edited a book, or came out with a new edition, wouldn't you want to make some note as to how or where material had been moved or updated. If I really felt the addition of that one word was "deceitful"...for lack of a better term, or misleading; that would be one thing. But all the material moved to this section of the article "Druid", did not exist here even six months ago. It seems prudent to have some kind of continuity to indicate where relocated material was originally found. So what is your objection to this? If it helps people realize "Oh so that is what happened to that page", what is the harm? It is not like I deleted "Female Druid" or attempted to change meaning here; I only added a term that would bring continuity to the changes made over the last...two years (?) I really can't see why you have such a strong objection to that. I looked at your Wiki page, and it is quite impressive. You have obviously spent a lot of time editing and "improving" Wiki. But I have to ask...what background do you have with this subject? I have a minor in Classical (Roman & Greek mainly) studies. If my edit truly hurt the article, I wouldn't put it up. One last thing. I looked at my message page, and you evidently left a message implying/indicating that I had edited or changed your comments on this talk page. I did not do this, nor would I. I have also notice my time stamp among other things keeps changing. Whether this is some unexplained error, or my lack of editing knowledge I am not sure...but I would never alter your comments Corbie. That would also run counter to my whole continuity mantra, and the need to have a clear record as to the changes and validity of Wiki. If they didn't exist, Wiki wouldn't be a very good refence...and I like to think it is. Despite Steven Colbert changing Harding's middle name to "Gangsta". I would assume since that time that Wiki has a lot more dedicated editors keeping tabs on things. I am not just trying to be a jerk here about the Druidess thing. I gave a legitimate reason for my change/concern, and it seems you have chosen to ignore it. It has nothing to do with "gender-neutral" terms. We will just have to disagree about this point. It is that having been previously sited, I wanted some kind of reference to the Druidess page that was deleted. What is your objection to this? Is there harm in doing this? I am not going to re-edit now...because I don't want this to turn into some kind of silly kids in the sandbox argument. But I think adding the word (Druidess) to the section heading does nothing to diminish the article. If this means bringing in another administrator with knowledge of the subject I am all for it. But if you can't give me a legitimate reason why this can't be included...then I think it ought to be put back up. -- joseph_setorius ☊ ☼ 16:00, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
Huh...I found this on your page Corbie: No climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man. Just wondering if this applies somehow here. -- joseph_setorius ☊ ☼ 17:27, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
There has been a citation required tag on this for close to five years. I've looked for evidence that the Magicus is inauthentic but haven't found anything so am modifying the text accordingly. Please revert and discuss if there is any objection. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:04, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
...and I'll play about with it over the next few days. There are problems with balance and POV... it looks like there has been a fair bit of editing by someone with an agenda to discredit modern day people who identify as druids. Whatever your opinion about "neo-druids", this is supposed to be an encyclopedic article about pre-roman celtic druids and any discussion of the modern day groups should be limited to a section on legacy. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 00:16, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Continuing to make edits... problems I perceive with the article:
Unless anyone raises an objection I'll continue to try to improve matters. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:09, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone know where the unreferenced quote from Diodorus Siculus comes from?
I have found the following translation in Bibliotheka Historia, but it doesn't quite follow the above.
Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
The origin of word DRU-ides most likely comes from Albanian language. DRU in Albanian in general mean Tree or Wood. Going through a Greek source and turn to an epithet this word took the greek particle "ides" which turn it to DRU-IDES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 ( talk) 15:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
To find that you should check greek (old and new) dictionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 ( talk) 16:19, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
In the old Greek dictionary there is no mention of Greek as well, as the " greek " word comes from Roman Empire describing part of what is today south of Albania and north of modern Greek. The fact that Albanian language heritated this from the mother language "IE", and no other has it in this form, does make the Albanian language automatically the source. Does the greek workd Ksylo sound to you like IE or like Semitic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 ( talk) 16:36, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
I think an important consideration that does not seem to be covered here is that there were many different tribes all over the territory of Western Europe and Britain. There has to have been a great variety and many differences in the practices of the tribes. A druid of a tribe in Southern Germany would very likely had much variation from a Druid in Northern Scotland. For example, there could be human sacrifice in one area and not in another, divination using bird flights in areas of north-western France and divination by casting bones in the coastal region of Italy. Druids could be more philosophical in one tribe and more king-like in a different tribe, they could wear crowns of snake eggs in Wales and necklaces of acorns in Denmark. (I use present day geographic for ease of description.) To further illustrate my point: in present day Nicaragua there are approximately 27 different tribes and tribal languages. In discussion druids of over 1000 years I think it is important to keep in mind that there was a great variety of tribes and practices; not one, united Druidism. Even if, for arguments sake we call it religion, Druidism, like present day christianity, has a multitude of variation. 2601:448:C380:57F1:81BD:A5D6:6D6C:6510 ( talk) 20:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC)